View Full Version : Constructing my new Man Cave
NoRoadtrippin
02-29-2012, 12:10
Morning folks,
I've been wanting to get on for awhile and start a new thread following the construction of my new "Cave." We had that thread awhile back in the Ammo forum asking for images of guns, reloading benches, man caves, and etc, but I wanted to start a new one for this topic since I intend it to carry its own weight. :D
I am going to start the thread with a few consecutive posts to kinda give a better idea of the break down of construction steps so far. A big starting dent has been made, but its slow going as--like every true, authentic Cave IMHO--I am building it on the cheap and with whatever can be scrounged for free as much as is possible.
And, well, also....because my wife won't really let me work when she is home due to the noise it makes...I have to rush home each day from work and try to work a bit before she makes it there. Luckily, with her being a PA, she works late hours often. ;)
Ok, the cave will be in my attic. The roof is stick built and there is a literally massive amount of space up there. With some skylights and a real set of stairs I could probably make my house 2 bedrooms larger.
These first pictures are the original structure to show the space I am working with as well as a floor plan that is generally to scale.
NoRoadtrippin
02-29-2012, 12:18
The first step and overall phase has been to floor all the new areas in. This was a chore because of the duct work that was already there. I would have much rather laid down some decking and moved on with life, but instead we had to come up 11" with 2x12s throughout the new sections.
To do this, I had to rake, sweep, and scoop all the cellulose out of the way so I could get the new flooring joists to lay on top of the ceiling rafters from the house below. Then the 2x12s had to be cut for both ducts and wiring of all sorts to pass through. In some areas we could shift the wiring one way or another with some slack so that they didn't have to be cut as many places.
The first section to go down was a approximately 14' 6" x 8' area to the left of the attic stair. I then starting insulating the new dead space by adding some cellulose back in and making up the balance with R-30 fiberglass.
NoRoadtrippin
02-29-2012, 12:23
Once that was done, the second flooring section started going in. This area is obviously right off the first one. It is right at 10' x 10'.
When added, it also prompted an extra piece or two of 2x12 to extend out the inside corner where this and the first area meet. You might be able to make it out in some of the pictures. It essentially gave me 2 more feet of 14 foot long space and 2 less feet of 10 foot space.
Insulation is quickly becoming my largest expense...
NoRoadtrippin
02-29-2012, 12:36
The last area to be floored in is the "Safe Room" This is across the main duct running above the center of the house. You can see it in my drawing and it will show up in some of the images.
The room is being built purposely for my guns, ammo, and probably general military gear since it ended up so big. The room will be hidden and not appear to exist for anyone who is hanging out having a beer or watching the game in the main part of the cave. I will hang something over the wall to the entrance and it won't be shown to folks that I would have any reason to not trust. It will be sealed up with fire rated sheet rock and fire rated paint.
The room was going to be like 8' x 8', because, you know, who needs a gun safe larger than 8' square? Right? That's a pretty big increase over your largest safe down at the store that's what maybe 24"x24" or something? That went out the window due to where the walls below fell. I had to go 14' out to hit another wall and even then, both ends actually sit on doubled up 2x12s that span some open walkways in the house below as you would think of a laminated beam doing. So at any rate, what I ended up with is a 8' by 14' gun safe. :D
All the OSB pictured throughout is one of my freebies. I was riding around checking out scrap piles at new construction sites and this guy had 10 sheets of 5/8 foil backed that he didn't need but had seen some rain so he couldn't return it. Definitely a major savings. I also have a large amount of 2x4s and other dimensional lumber that is getting ready to go into walls.
What else is going in there? I am currently in the middle of a basement man cave build. Working on the Bar now, Home Theater is complete.
The Reaper
02-29-2012, 20:34
Interesting concept.
1. How are you going to use that space in the summer outside of the insulated and conditioned space? Many things, including ammo, do not like being stored in warm areas. Guns don't like humidity, either. My attic used to hit 140 degrees plus in the summer here in NC, and about five minutes was all I could stand.
2. Packed or compressed insulation loses a lot of its R value.
3. I would be very careful of the loads you are adding to the truss system. The manufactured ones are normally built to a small safety factor. A room full of guns and lead, probably not a good idea.
4. Fire egress from the multiple areas?
5. How do you protect your safe room from an intruder? Are you going to reinforce the walls?
6. Make sure that you are not keeping the attic ventilation system from working. Soffits and ridge vents need to be clear.
7. Consider the need for electrical drops, outlets, etc. in your finished spaces. Hopefully, there is no running water going in.
8. Are you able to get 4x8 sheets of plywood in? If not, you will probably not be able to get sheets of drywall in either.
Again, interesting project, not bashing, just curious. Keep us posted on your progress.
TR
Dude, next time you take a crap. Look down to make sure you have a pair:D
Good work thou. Listen to TR about the load weight, especially if it's a manufactured type home. But if you do want to show who is boss again in your House. Install a Dumbwaiter.
Snaquebite
02-29-2012, 20:55
Looks good and good points from TR. However,since I have no HH6...My entire house is my man cave.....
Road,
Looking at your pictures it looks like you have the right idea. Its a pretty cool project. One thing I would like to point out though, on the 1st picture of your third post you have ducting going under the floor joists, this is okay, but the way you did it is a little concerning. You are not leaving enough wood for support on those floor joists due to the size of the cut you put into them for the duct. The joists will break on that spot under any reasonable load. The right way to do it would be to frame around the ducting in a "H" to keep the load spread a crossed the floor joists.
I am also in total agreement about the proper R values on your insulation, and keeping the house breathing. Heat, moisture and humidity are HUGE factors on keeping your home healthy. The home breaths through the attic, so as stated above make extra sure your house is properly vented. You might want to look into spray foam kits. They are reasonably cheap, and very easy to apply, or you could do a 1-2 inch layer of spray foam, and a layer of the fiberglass. Just make sure under that, that you have the pink or green foam breathing ducts for the roof. That way you will get a great R value, and still allow your roof to breath.
If you can, to deal with the heat, a vent-able skylight set, or low E Glass windows would work pretty well. Since you plan to seal the rooms, venting some AC in the rooms would work as well. Glass does get expensive, but if you go to places like window stores and home-depot and ask for "contractor miscuts" you can get extremely good deals on expensive glass. What a miscut is, is when a contractor orders glass to a certain size, and then changes their mind, or wants a different size. The store then has custom glass they dont need, and normally sells it dirt cheap. Your best bet is to call around and see what you can find.
One more note, also pointed out already, fire escapes are important for your family and your welfare, dont overlook that! To boot though, I dont know how it is in your area, but if you do not have permits to build this, and a approved plan, especially if you dont have fire escapes, the town can have you remove the whole thing! Its pretty wild a man cannot build whatever they want anymore, but depending on where you live, they can tell you whatever they want. :mad:
Seriously though, good luck on your project, and I look forward to seeing it finished! :munchin
Right...the first thoughts going through my mind, as I have done carpentry and a bit of remodeling, was TRs #3.
You mention a 14' span also. That is a pretty big span to have without any other load bearing support. You can expect sagging or bowing after a year or two, even if laid on edge as in your pictures.
I know cost is an issue, but you might want to consider an architect (you can save money by going to a university and getting a hold of a recent or soon to be grad), and enlisting the help of a structural engineer. The structural engineers are the same that come out and do home inspections before the sale of a house. They are not that expensive, usually based on where you llve. Expect $280 to $400 or so, and here you don't want to cheapen the cost.
Adding on above the first floor is a big deal beyond just some simple plywood subflooring of say 5/8 or 7/8. That stuff adds up in weight as well, and sheetrock is pretty heavy also, and the integrity of your roof is going to be holding that (your sheetrock if used) up.
Not trying to discourage you, but approach this right and you will have an awesome man cave you can enjoy till you die. A few oversights and you could be paying thousands or more in home repairs...
The home breaths through the attic, so as stated above make extra sure your house is properly vented. You might want to look into spray foam kits. They are reasonably cheap, and very easy to apply, or you could do a 1-2 inch layer of spray foam, and a layer of the fiberglass. Just make sure under that, that you have the pink or green foam breathing ducts for the roof. That way you will get a great R value, and still allow your roof to breath.
I almost learned this the hard way, started closing up the eves due to poor insulation and I had the beginnings of an ice dam last winter (and now I will *probably* never hear the end of it from my father-in-law, who happens to be a civil engineer :eek::D ). Looking at your insulation job, if your eves are open, make sure they can breath (though considering your location, ice may be less of a worry).
ETA: RE QP TR #3 - In my limited experience, I have found (in my area at least) that this is dependent on when the house was built, some of the older houses have a single 6x8 running the width of the house supported by a single column, the attic usually has a single 6x8(I believe) running the length supported by bearing walls on either side. Newer construction (like my dwelling) have a single I-beam running the length of the house supported by two columns, with two 6x8 running the width supported by the I-beam; the attic is supported by two 6x8 running the width on bearing walls with the downward load on the I-beam. Just an observation; knowing what is supporting your attic will go a long way...
NoRoadtrippin
03-01-2012, 23:12
Thanks everyone for your thoughts. I think breaking down TR's post will be the most efficient way to respond.
Interesting concept.
1. How are you going to use that space in the summer outside of the insulated and conditioned space? Many things, including ammo, do not like being stored in warm areas. Guns don't like humidity, either. My attic used to hit 140 degrees plus in the summer here in NC, and about five minutes was all I could stand.
This space will be fully insulated obviously. The walls will have fiberglass in them, and of course the new ceiling areas will as well. AC/Heat will run off of the system already in the house. I had it looked at earlier this year when it needed a refill and the HVAC pro confidently said it was a ton larger than I needed and that my plans for additional space would not stress it. There will not be a separate zone and thermostat installed. Therefore it will always likely be slightly warmer or cooler than the house below with respect to whatever season we are in. I also plan to install some combination of either a double sided radiant foil film or sheathing to keep the uninsulated space from getting quite as hot during the summer months which should assist with keeping the new construction a bit more comfortable.
2. Packed or compressed insulation loses a lot of its R value.
I am not packing or compressing any insulation whatsoever. This is why I cleaned off the current 2x8s before installing my new subflooring. There is of course some sporadic compression here and there as I stepped across some beams or laid a piece of wood down and it might have fallen between two beams and squished a bit, but nowhere is there anything compressed by design. The R-30 is rated to loft 9 3/4", IIRC, which is why I then added a couple of inches of cellulose back to each cavity after putting down the 2x12s to fill the remaining space.
3. I would be very careful of the loads you are adding to the truss system. The manufactured ones are normally built to a small safety factor. A room full of guns and lead, probably not a good idea.
My house is not built on trusses at all. That's why I am able to do this. If I had trusses in the attic, I would have no open space. Especially if it were that manufactured crap. As far as my load on the ceiling below, the new main room has a number of load-bearing walls running below it. Those 2x12s I put in have a quite a lot of support up under them. Above, there are some strong backs here and there that provide some support to the roof joists that are running longer spans, but those have been taken into consideration and will either be left in place or compensated for by the new walls going in--which in most cases will catch those beams at a very similar spot. The laminated beam across the garage is actually my weakest link. Its about 16" tall but spans something like 23'. I have talked with the local lumber shop to get numbers from the data sheet on it. I will be close to my limits on it, but I am doing some things in that area to avoid going past the boundary. Of course those limits are, in reality, based on a very heavy snow load. The other 99 years ouyt of every 100, I will be good to go. It's an acceptable risk in my mind. Global warming, right? The other weak link is the safe room span. The room of "guns and lead" sits on (2) 2x12s pattern nailed together to effectively serve as beams across those open areas between two walls in the house below. Those (2) 2x12s don't span more than 8' in either case and as such should be well within the limits for holding up that room. The 2x12s I put in that area also have been supported along their length so that they do not flex and sag without having to first flex the ceiling beams below them. It could happen, but I also don't have as much ammo as some might. ;)
4. Fire egress from the multiple areas?
I don't suppose there will be much fire egress honestly. This is a space in which you would only be up there wide awake and aware of what is going on. Now I understand that doesn't totally eliminate the need to get out in a hurry, but I guess I mean that to say that it won't be the type place where you might wake up after the house has been burning for a period and now you have no way out. At the end of the day, I will admit there are some concessions made as it isn't "living space." And I live in the country...codes? What codes?
5. How do you protect your safe room from an intruder? Are you going to reinforce the walls?
The safe room is protected from an intruder by its very nature. No one knows its there. It isn't really meant to provide security like a safe does. A safe has to be inherently secure because anyone who comes into your bedroom/garage/workshop sees it sitting right there asking to be busted up. My room will be in my inaccessible attic, and even then will be hidden from view to anyone that I don't care to show it to. When someone breaks into your house, you think they look at the attic pull down and think, "Let's go get his Christmas decorations!"? Again, it could happen, but the risk reduction measure here isn't secure-ness, instead is out of sight, out of mind. With all that in mind, I have been looking at putting additional sheathing on the outside of that room so that it would take pulling panels off rather than just kicking them in to get into there if someone were ever in the rest of the attic and trying to force their way in from there.
6. Make sure that you are not keeping the attic ventilation system from working. Soffits and ridge vents need to be clear.
There is literally no place in the current layout that I will conflict with soffits or ridge vents. And ridge vents were put in by the builder as expected and necessary.
7. Consider the need for electrical drops, outlets, etc. in your finished spaces. Hopefully, there is no running water going in.
No, I will likely not have any water. There is electrical going in obviously for the items mentioned. We have put thought to routing from new walls and such down to the current breaker box and main. The attic already has a number of bare bulb lights put in by the builder. These established circuits should get me a good way to where I need to be.
8. Are you able to get 4x8 sheets of plywood in? If not, you will probably not be able to get sheets of drywall in either.
Yes. I have already taken up 10 sheets of 4x8. The old attic stairs are coming out in favor of a hoist driven elevator. The new opening will be a decent bit larger than what the stairs needed so I just went ahead and cut some sheet rock out of the garage ceiling to make a slot for my sheet goods. More to follow on the hoist. I promise, I've given it some thought as well. ;)
Again, interesting project, not bashing, just curious. Keep us posted on your progress.
TR
Thanks again to everyone for thoughts and feedback. I will take all I can get. I actually started my college career as an architecture major and I have had a 20+ year contractor and custom home builder from work to come by and look at things and provide advice. I changed a number of things after talking to him. It will be a "man cave" in that it may not have every single consideration of true livable space taken account of, but it should be at least a 90% solution and both comfortable and safe enough for what it is.
As far as what else is going in...I do plan to have a bar and TV and couch area eventually. Beyond that, it will just be all the gear you can see in my cave from our first house in the original thread on this site (and maybe some new stuff too, hehe).
NoRoadtrippin
03-01-2012, 23:15
ETA: RE QP TR #3 - In my limited experience, I have found (in my area at least) that this is dependent on when the house was built, some of the older houses have a single 6x8 running the width of the house supported by a single column, the attic usually has a single 6x8(I believe) running the length supported by bearing walls on either side. Newer construction (like my dwelling) have a single I-beam running the length of the house supported by two columns, with two 6x8 running the width supported by the I-beam; the attic is supported by two 6x8 running the width on bearing walls with the downward load on the I-beam. Just an observation; knowing what is supporting your attic will go a long way...
Thought I might hit this specifically as well. Again I got lucky here. My house was built in '06, but was built "old school" I suppose. 100% of my attic space is 2x8s on a 16" center. I have lots of strength to work with in the areas with walls below those 2x8s.
...good to hear. Now if you can figure out a way to put a jacuzzi up there, across from the tv, and close to the bar, you'd be all set!:cool:
I don't know about a "man-cave", but I bet my wife would love to build herself something similar if she had any spare time.