17 Guard Company Leaders Removed in Abuse Probe

[BMT (RIP)]

http://www.military.com/news/article/17-leaders-from-guard-company-in-kosovo-removed-amid-abuse-probe.html?ESRC=eb.nl

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[QOB]

Not many details in the story....

Wonder if the "rite of passage" mentioned approached what Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling endured at West Point..doesn't the Navy still intiate the polywogs when they cross the equator?

.....curious to know the details.

[mark46th]

Isn't that what Phase I was?

None of the groups I served in did anything like this. I remember my first morning in the 5th group being woken up by a SGM with 2 stars(WWII/Korea) on his CIB. I jumped out of my rack and he said, "Relax. You made it. Breakfast is in an hour." It was all that mattered.

[afchic]

I think this just shows the "pussification" that is going on in our military. Too often we have leaders that were picked last in gym class, and now that they have power they are using it to make up for their hard times growing up.

Sometimes you see it played out like this. Most times you see it played out by senior leaders that don't trust their subordinates to get the job done, and berate and ridicule them in public because it makes them feel better. As of late that is what the AF has turned into, IMHO. Last year I had on "over the fence" conversation with our 4-star's aide. I made a comment about how his morning briefing was something like 200 slides long, and that it seemed GOs couldn't understand something that wasn't on a Power Point slide. The aide said I was wrong, the only reason the morning brief was that long was because when the 4 star was Capt/Maj that is what was expected of him, and he now expected it of his staff, regardless of whether it was meaningful or not. If the slide builders didn't like it, there were 20 other guys standing behind him willing to be the butt boy if meant getting a boost in their career.

Our leadership sucks!

[Sohei]

...This idiot told the soldier I was helping " I told you you need to figure stuff out yourself" and dropped the soldier and made him do PT at his feet never answering the question.

My present unit is a complete opposite of the last one so there is good leadership out there still. IMHO they need to review leadership skills instead of PT standards.

Leadership is one of those fine arts that few master because it takes work and a desire to continually learn. With that said, those they are in leadership positions who aren't leaders often tend to cover up their incompetence and lack of knowledge with PT while never teaching those under their control anything of value except what a poor leader is.

[Tweeder11]

Isn't that what Phase I was?

None of the groups I served in did anything like this. I remember my first morning in the 5th group being woken up by a SGM with 2 stars(WWII/Korea) on his CIB. I jumped out of my rack and he said, "Relax. You made it. Breakfast is in an hour." It was all that mattered.

QP Mark,

If I may, I would say that this exemplifies a professionalism that other portrayals of various SOF and conventional units do not share. From different publishings and personal accounts, I've heard many horror stories of hazings that were dangerous, illegal, or downright stupid.

IMHO, it seems like our culture is more hung up on who's "more bad ass", who's the best, who went through the most S**t to get where they are, etc. And that's how we end up with with people (in power) who commited the aforementioned stupid acts. Sooner or later I hope we can wake up as a society and find a better MO for our actions.

Sorry for the rant and thank you professionals, for being excellent role models for us (youngins, newbs, rooks, what have you),

Tweeder

[bravo22b]

I hope that this is not the unit I think it is, but I will reserve judgement until I hear more details. I will be disappointed if it turns out to be bad leadership but it wouldn't be the first time a unit had an unprofessional leadership culture. At the same time you have to wonder what a private in 2012 thinks is a "hostile work environment" compared to what soldiers in years past tolerated.

Update: I just read another article that pretty much confirmed that this is the unit I thought it was. I hope this doesn't turn out as bad as it sounds or it will be a black eye for the LRS community.

[BMT (RIP)]

Payback is a MOTHER!!
Unit has to rotate>

Local LEO might be busy. ;-)))

BMT

[cbtengr]

" Not many details." That pretty well sums it up for now. I was 18 when I enlisted, not a boy but by no means a man. I was not abused, hazed or whatever you wish to call it regardless of my unit, BCT, AIT etc. At some point I became enough of a man that I was given my own squad . The Army was my job, my sqds. were my men and I treated them as such. I am sure that the pvt. who finally brought this to light never expected the treatment he received at his unit. Mistreatment of subordinates can only lead to a less than desirable environment. There are no doubt individuals that get off on this type of behavior, there should be no room in any unit or branch of the service for any of them. We need more info as to the circumstances. Have you read any of the comments that followed the article? Some of the comments speak volumes as to the character of the writer.

[Sarski]

Not many details in the story....

Wonder if the "rite of passage" mentioned approached what Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling endured at West Point..doesn't the Navy still intiate the polywogs when they cross the equator?

.....curious to know the details.


They did when I was in some 24 years ago. I would hardly call it hazing though. It is a rite of passage. We also had a choice to participate or not. It was pretty elaborate. Officers and enlisted who had not crossed were treated the same regardless of rank, by those who had crossed, also regardless of rank.

Shilalees made of fire hose were used liberally. My ass was red for a week after. Wogs had to crawl around on the non skid on hands and knees all day. So not only was my ass red, my knees were thrashed as well.

Being on your hands and knees left your rear exposed for anyone on two legs with a shilalee. (In comparisson it was quite mild to making rank and getting your rank tagged on).

CO and XO also participated.

The second time I crossed for the Shellback cerimony I elected to stand watch and man my radar as opposed to initiating others across. Someone had to keep an eye on the skies and sea. It did kind of have a Lord of the Flies mentality to it.

Not to long after, the ceremony changed in the move toward a kinder and gentler navy. No more red asses.

All in all it was a tradition going back hundreds and hundreds of years that I'm glad to have taken part in. It was good fun, and I'd do it again a million times over.

Oh, I forgot to mention, the food that day was the worst food concocted aboard a navy ship I had ever eaten. And thekilling of the wog and "birthing" of a shellback stank so bad there was plenty of vommit to swim in in the coffin.


Really though, one of the best days and most memorable times in this sailors life.

[Surgicalcric]

There is a whole bunch of individuals speculating about a situation they know little about in this thread.

I talked to the former commander of this LRS company (he is a member here) about this private just a week or so ago. It seems that when the going got tough this little shit got whiny and bitched. He wasn't enduring anything anyone else in the company hadn't endured to be a part of the unit. What a lil punk... :mad: And since the Army is prone to knee jerk reactions we have 17 individuals whose careers will be tossed over the lil punk bitch being smoked and made to waller in a gig pit...

That said, good thing no one showed up at SOPC to witness the treatment of the young 18X's in the first years of the program's existence. We were abused physically so most of the weak little punk bitches like this lil shit could be weeded out. I thank God for the abuse!

[alright4u]

I think this just shows the "pussification" that is going on in our military. Too often we have leaders that were picked last in gym class, and now that they have power they are using it to make up for their hard times growing up.

Sometimes you see it played out like this. Most times you see it played out by senior leaders that don't trust their subordinates to get the job done, and berate and ridicule them in public because it makes them feel better. As of late that is what the AF has turned into, IMHO. Last year I had on "over the fence" conversation with our 4-star's aide. I made a comment about how his morning briefing was something like 200 slides long, and that it seemed GOs couldn't understand something that wasn't on a Power Point slide. The aide said I was wrong, the only reason the morning brief was that long was because when the 4 star was Capt/Maj that is what was expected of him, and he now expected it of his staff, regardless of whether it was meaningful or not. If the slide builders didn't like it, there were 20 other guys standing behind him willing to be the butt boy if meant getting a boost in their career.

Our leadership sucks!

What did me in was the damn BDE CO's who demanded lying/falsification of all reports so they's look good on the stats. I did not play that game . I wrote the BDE up as not combat ready on the URR and when I was sent packing to the S-4 shop, I deadlined that MF's two mech BN's. The liar made BG on top of that.

[TF Kilo]

Ranger creed every morning before formation... someone borks it, pushups for all.
Ranger creed at COB... someone borks it, pushups for all.

Doing mag change drills with the team. Lose, Drop.
Mag change drills and win? Drop because your TL's down. :boohoo
Worst group on the CQM range? Drop.
Best group on the CQM range? Drop because your TL's down for getting beat, and you need help to push your limits.
Tab's find brass behind police call? Madness ensues.
PSG inspection and RSOV dirty? Drop.
RSOV Dismount drill too slow? Drop.
RSOV Mount drill too slow? Drop.
Close to COB and TL wants entertainment? Jeopardy, Ranger style. Wrong answers to history, weapons systems, tactics? Pushups in increasing increments.
COB and enough stuff was buggered up during the day? Privates in the hallway and flutter kicks until SL's came back from the CP with the poop.
Roommate in your squad falling out on a run? Carry 'em for the 3 miles left that morning.
Layout for RSOV equipment? Time hacks... Time hacks everywhere. Rarely met and many pushups with feet from RSOV hoods.
Truly piss off any TL/SL/Tab in the motor pool? Water cans and ironmans.
Piss them off in the barracks? Iron chair with your Beret on your fingertips.
Boat detail for a jump? Zodiac PT for everyone.


With all that "Hazing"... or what some P*$$ies would call hazing,

A: Never did a pushup for anything I wasn't instructed on previously
B: Whatcha gonna do, make my PT score better? :lifter
C: Never degraded, never harassed, never injured.
D: There was always method to the madness.

Then again, as in SF, people want to be Rangers just like they want to be SF. It's a choice to WANT to endure MORE than the next guy.

I employed a large amount of the same methods in the regular army, with no issues raised from either my men nor my command.

The army in general let alone the varied halls of SOF units is no place for the feeble or weak.

[alright4u]

QP Mark,

If I may, I would say that this exemplifies a professionalism that other portrayals of various SOF and conventional units do not share. From different publishings and personal accounts, I've heard many horror stories of hazings that were dangerous, illegal, or downright stupid.

IMHO, it seems like our culture is more hung up on who's "more bad ass", who's the best, who went through the most S**t to get where they are, etc. And that's how we end up with with people (in power) who commited the aforementioned stupid acts. Sooner or later I hope we can wake up as a society and find a better MO for our actions.

Sorry for the rant and thank you professionals, for being excellent role models for us (youngins, newbs, rooks, what have you),

Tweeder

Let me just state I saw no type of hazing or initiation in MACVSOG by any of my senior officers, and; I never heard any of our NCO's or men doing it. Our initiation came under fire.

[BMT (RIP)]

http://www.military.com/news/article/guard-used-range-of-tactics-in-misconduct.html?ESRC=eb.nl

BMT

[Eagle5US]

http://www.military.com/news/article/guard-used-range-of-tactics-in-misconduct.html?ESRC=eb.nl

BMT
So, AGAIN, the article says exactly DICK...

I think Crip hit is squarely;

Lots of guys who did :lifter
and ONE who did a lot of :boohoo

Shameful...

[Richard]

Yep - ain't nothing like a lil' ol' pink cover sheet on a memorandum requesting an answer to a Congresscritter expressing concern about the off-spring of one of his "valued constituents" to get the Chain of Command jumping through their 4th point-of-contact...

And so it goes...

Richard :munchin

[Renegade]

http://www.armytimes.com/news/2012/02/army-investigates-flat-out-abuse-in-kosovo-hertling-022912/

They're not even calling it hazing now.

[Renegade]

Alcon,

So far 1 Article 15 has been given out. For some reason the CPL did not fight it and took a reduction to PFC. What I have heard is that the Article 15 was due to making a private low crawl.

Will continue to advise

Respectfully

[Renegade]

Payback is a MOTHER!!
Unit has to rotate>

Local LEO might be busy. ;-)))

BMT

Funny thing about your quote sir, a lot of these NCOs are former active duty and are now local LEOs. At one point we had 2 federal agents in the company!

[Renegade]

Commander has been given a general letter of reprimand as have several of the NCOs.

The 1SG and 3 senior NCOs are being sent to Germany for court marshal.

The families of these men needless to say are very worried. Please keep them all in your prayers.

Thank you

[Dozer523]

The 1SG and 3 senior NCOs are being sent to Germany for court marshal.

The families of these men needless to say are very worried. Please keep them all in your prayers.
Thank youPray for them, the heck with that, they're on their own. They're bad then they're bullys, they burn.
OTOH, If they're good they should book rooms for Momma and the kiddos at Garmish. wait and see.:munchin

[Renegade]

Courts martial have been placed on hold. Still haven't had any charges filed against any of the NCOs.

In other news all of the Article 15s have been overturned.

Turns out making a Soldier low-crawl is not considered hazing.

Adding to the drama one of the NCOs brought in from Germany may be charged with assault.

Will continue to advise.

[Razor]

Just to be precise, the term would be courts martial (court martial in the singular). Similar to Sergeants Major, but contrary to Major Generals. ;)

[Renegade]

And roger sir....corrections made!