View Full Version : Marines Pose with SS Flag
Utah Bob
02-10-2012, 11:29
No , it means scout snipers. Really! (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/46329740#.TzVTVOROWuI)
SAN DIEGO — The U.S. Marine Corps once again did damage control after a photograph surfaced of a sniper team in Afghanistan posing in front of a flag with a logo resembling that of the notorious Nazi SS — a special unit that murdered millions of Jews, gypsies and others.
The Corps said in a statement that using the symbol was not acceptable, but the Marines in the photograph taken in September 2010 will not be disciplined because investigators determined it was a naive mistake.
And we're off.:rolleyes:
mojaveman
02-10-2012, 11:46
I wonder if those jarheads even know what Schutzstaffel means. They should have used better judgement. In todays world everything must be politically correct.
Everybody knows what the Nordic-stylized Siegrunen and the SS stood for - and anybody remember the issues with neo-Nazi types in the military not all that long ago (hint: it was a BIG problem in the 82nd where avowed racists killed two black guys) - and now an American military unit displaying a banner which is the antithesis of what America stands for along with the American flag...:eek:
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
- Albert Einstein
I'd like to ask my dead uncle (who fought his way across Europe as an Infantry Platoon Sergeant in the 120th Infantry Regiment of the 30th Infantry Division) and my dead father-in-law (who did the same as a Platoon Leader in the 55th Armored Infantry Battalion of the 11th Armored Division) what they think of these guys and their 'cool' banner.
And so it goes...
Richard :munchin
Was embedded with the Marines for 13yrs and I have seen that symbol used 100 + times from Unit T-Shirts, Tatoos, Flags, ect. And I never saw or heard of a Sr. NCO or Officer complain about it. Just saying
This will seriously impact Marine recruitment efforts in the Jewish community.
Utah Bob
02-10-2012, 12:46
This is the best part.
investigators determined it was a naive mistake.
I guess you can be amazingly f***** up and stupid as long as you're naive.:confused:
Maybe it's a Department of the Navy thing. This is on their Naval Amphibious Base, Coronado:
longrange1947
02-10-2012, 13:43
A sniper buddy of mine and former Marine sniper instructor, warned the clowns in 1982 that it was a very bad idea. It disappeared for a while and came back. They knew damn well what it meant and were playing the asshole game.
Yep, Marines protecting themselves on an investigation. They knew. :munchin
cant hardly
02-10-2012, 15:12
.
When one puts a .50 cal round through someone's head at great distance, one must do it in an inoffensive manner. :rolleyes:
cant hardly
02-10-2012, 15:25
.
longrange1947
02-10-2012, 15:31
..........................
On a separate note— why is there even a marine corp? Do we need to field two land war forces? Can't they be put back to protecting ships from pirates or whatever they are supposed to do?
Just as a side note, the Navy has asked to build a Naval Infantry Corps to protect the ships. Interesting how they keep getting more money and we get less. :munchin :D
kawaishi
02-10-2012, 15:56
I'm sad to say that it's possible that most enlisted Marines couldn't tell you what the SS was or why its disgusting to use that logo. When I was in I saw that SS a few times and was told, "Oh, it means Scout/Sniper!" If I wasn't a history buff from a young age I would have been none the wiser. Never saw another nazi or race related logo or issue around the same guys and there were minority Marines who seemed oblivious to it as well.
I bet that most students in my university couldn't identify the SS symbol and Marines don't get any history education besides what the Corps deems necessary. If you consider what most Marines believe about their own history it's not to hard to figure out that they don't read many history textbooks.
As longrange pointed out, this has been around their community for a long time and I place the responsibility square on the brass.
Utah Bob
02-10-2012, 16:36
As longrange pointed out, this has been around their community for a long time and I place the responsibility square on the brass.
Agree. A flag that damn big had to be seen by senior NCOs and officers at some point and they sure as hell should have known what it was.
Tweeder11
02-10-2012, 16:40
http://news.yahoo.com/us-defense-chief-seeks-probe-marine-photo-211906333.html
Sec Def told USMC "to re-investigate and take appropriate action against the Marine snipers who posed with a logo resembling a notorious Nazi symbol"
Head's are going to roll.
"The rapid-fire announcements came on the heels of demands from a leading Jewish organization and others for President Barack Obama to order an investigation into the incident and to hold the troops accountable"
Now I personally can see how SOME might not know what the SS stood for, but they damn sure will now. Not knowing has NEVER been an excuse.
Respectfully,
Tweeder
CloseDanger
02-10-2012, 17:38
"Not for any sinister or anti-Semitic calculation, but for the simple reason the acronym/letters SS fit nicely in identifying a Scout Sniper and generally because of a professional respect for the German military’s martial capabilities on the battlefield and not the politics of the Nazi fascist regime." (http://smallwarsjournal.com/blog/marine-scout-snipers-and-the-ss-flag?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter)
No one ever protested KIZZ. Paging Gene Simmons (http://thisainthell.us/blog/?p=28685)
This is a waste of time.
"Not for any sinister or anti-Semitic calculation, but for the simple reason the acronym/letters SS fit nicely in identifying a Scout Sniper and generally because of a professional respect for the German military’s martial capabilities on the battlefield and not the politics of the Nazi fascist regime." (http://smallwarsjournal.com/blog/marine-scout-snipers-and-the-ss-flag?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter)
No one ever protested KIZZ. Paging Gene Simmons (http://thisainthell.us/blog/?p=28685)
Now that is an astounding lack of SA and historical perspective. :eek:
And so it goes...
Richard :munchin
CombatMuffin
02-10-2012, 19:24
"Not for any sinister or anti-Semitic calculation, but for the simple reason the acronym/letters SS fit nicely in identifying a Scout Sniper and generally because of a professional respect for the German military’s martial capabilities on the battlefield and not the politics of the Nazi fascist regime."
I disagree with this quote completely.
Even if those Marines were trying to show respect for German military prowess during that specific time period, I would assume the Germans wouldn't take it kindly if those Marines waved that symbol while stationed in Germany in the present. Respect can be shown in many other, far more appropriate ways.
Maybe they thought it stood for SUPER STAR! Sad to say. But I would guess most in the pic have no idea about WWII history
bubblehead
02-10-2012, 19:47
This is on par with those idiots who decided to piss on the corpses of the enemy, and to FILM IT :mad:
Poor disply of tact, professionalism, and SA in both cases.
mojaveman
02-10-2012, 20:04
martial capabilities on the battlefield and not the politics of the Nazi fascist regime.
The SS administrated the entire Nazi fascist regime.
The Waffen SS? Ever heard of a place called Malmedy?
Most of these Marines probably only have a high school education, they are not very old and also while the runes are the same as the nazi SS, the flag is similar and not the same.
Runes (s) also looks like lightning bolts. The nazi was into anything that embellished their presentation. If anything it is not the smartest thing to do. More concerning is all the spin masters playing this for all they can get out of it. Just like the Marines pissing on the dead T-ban. Gunny should have taken care of it in house. A few days sand bagging or burning S-ters.
We live in such a distant society that we have the luxury to blow small issues way out of proportion. The most effective weapon the tangos have and it comes with all sorts of unwilling and willing allies is propaganda. Let's make a mountain out of a mole hill!
The saving grace of other wars was, we did not have the internet, we did not have all the electronic toys, and communication was slow.
I am more for supporting our people than chastising them. They job is crappy as it is. So they make mistakes?
The other difference in WWII, if the editors of the NYT published stuff then as they do today, my guess would be: Americans would storm their offices, tar an feather the editors and run them out of town on a rail.
The SS administrated the entire Nazi fascist regime.
No, they did not, although they were an inherently important part of it all.
Post #25
Astounding! And I disagree.
We're supposed to be a professional military force representing the ideals of what is considered to be the greatest nation on this planet and its policies - not the overly idealized, misunderstood, and patently misrepresented actions of those of previous cultures. Declaring ourselves to be 'crusaders' or 'SS' or 'rebels' or such only detracts from our assigned mission(s), wastes valuable resources and limited energies, and encourages our enemies...both domestic and foreign...while frustrating our allies and NCA. It's time we grew up; realized the importance of such juvenile actions in hindering our progress in an e-world; and make sure we, our allies, and our enemies understand we will have little tolerance for such behaviors which are not reflective of who we truly are, profess to be, and seek to become.
Perception is reality out there - and it's been that way for quite awhile. This is LIFE...not some effin' video game.
Richard :munchin
kawaishi
02-10-2012, 21:44
The saving grace of other wars was, we did not have the internet, we did not have all the electronic toys, and communication was slow.
I am more for supporting our people than chastising them. They job is crappy as it is. So they make mistakes?
The other difference in WWII, if the editors of the NYT published stuff then as they do today, my guess would be: Americans would storm their offices, tar an feather the editors and run them out of town on a rail.
Nope. There is no "saving grace" in not having journalism. Good reporting has an important role to play in our society and it's not the fault of the reporter when idiots throw puppies off of cliffs or pose with flags that "admire the martial qualities" of the nazi's.
I'm all for chastising any idiot who by his actions shames himself and his uniform. I just think that the major portion of the blame is on the leadership who for many, many years has permitted this in the Scout Snipers.
It does not resemble the SS symbol it IS the SS symbol. Thousands of Americans died fighting those bastards there is zero excuse for this shit.
Absolutely, big boy world, big boy rules, this is the symbol of units which perpetuated racial genocide on an industrial scale and killed millions, not to mention many an American boy, brothers in arms to these Marines. Ignorance is not an excuse, what was going through the heads of senior NCO's and officers?
These Marines are tough men, who do a tough job, yet they might consider spending a day at Auschwitz, go to the rooms next to the hallway where there are thousands of baby shoes piled to the ceiling, lamps made out of human skin, and other examples of the evils humanity is capable of.
The American flag in that picture is truly the flag of hard men, our grandfathers who beat this evil.
Source is here (http://www.marines.mil/unit/hqmc/Pages/ASTATEMENTONTHESSFLAGFROMTHECOMMANDANTOFTHEMARINEC ORPSGENJAMESFAMOS.aspx#.TzXnyYGB3rQ).
A STATEMENT ON THE SS FLAG FROM THE COMMANDANT OF THE MARINE CORPS GEN. JAMES F. AMOS
2/10/2012
Headquarters Marine Corps Lt. Col. Joseph M. Plenzler
Headquarters Marine Corps
(703) 614-2326
joseph.m.plenzler@usmc.mil
WASHINGTON —
On February 9, I was made aware of an internet photo depicting Marines posing with a flag containing a Nazi symbol. I want to be clear that the Marine Corps unequivocally does not condone the use of any such symbols to represent our units or Marines.
The local command to which the Marines in the photo were assigned investigated this issue last November. They determined that the Marines in the photo were ignorant of the connection of this symbol to the Holocaust and monumental atrocities associated with Nazi Germany. To ensure the Marines involved fully understood the historical use of the SS symbology, a formal instructional class was prepared and delivered by unit leadership.
In order to ensure that all Marines are aware of the Marine Corps' position on this issue, I have directed that:
- My commanders investigate the prevalence of the use of SS or other unauthorized symbols within the reconnaissance and sniper communities.
- The Sergeant Major of the Marine Corps immediately detach from his current duties in Washington, DC and personally meet with every senior Staff Non-commissioned Officer and Marine from our sniper and reconnaissance communities to reinforce my message and expectations.
- The commanding general of our training and education command review the current sniper school curriculum to ensure it contains prohibitions on the use of the SS symbol and other inappropriate symbols.
On behalf of the Marine Corps and all Marines, I apologize to all offended by this regrettable incident.
-END-
Entire post.With respect, this post suggests a double standard. Civilians are often excoriated on this BB and others like it for their increasing neglect of the concept of personal responsiblity. Yet, when members of the armed services make the choice to behave in ways inconsistent with the values of the American professions of arms, there are those who say isn't such a big deal.
Nevertheless, this incident is a big deal. Not the least because it demonstrates, yet again, the persistence of enduring myths in America about Nazism despite the diligent efforts of German historians to understand their own past.
Moreover, the following statement is a questionable (i.e. ahistorical) speculation.The other difference in WWII, if the editors of the NYT published stuff then as they do today, my guess would be: Americans would storm their offices, tar an feather the editors and run them out of town on a rail.As D.M. Giangreco points out in his study of Operation DOWNFALL, numerous broadsheets published articles, editorials, and letters to the editor that raised questions about the armed forces notwithstanding the efforts of the federal government and the armed services to frame public perception of the war.
For better and for worse, the journalism played a significant role in shaping the perception of hard line militarists in Japan of America's will to fight, and the viability of continued armed resistance.*
__________________________________________________ __
* D. M. Giangreco, Hell to Pay: Operation DOWNFALL and the Invasion of Japan, 1945-1947 (Annapolis: Naval Institute Press, 2009).
I believe I have an idea of what a symbol is.
The "Lone Star" flag is a probable statement of pride in the culture now existing in Texas, to one person. Perhaps to another it is a "symbol" of killing indians, to another, it is a "symbol" of stealing Mexican land. Deciding what a symbol means to the person displaying it is an interesting evaluation of our own "baggage".
I have a baseball cap, sorta "Bad-a$$ed Vietnam Vet" type thing, and on it, you'd see a skull and crossbones. That does not mean that I am a pirate, nor that I am a member of the old SS Death's Head division, nor that I admire them.
A symbol means what the folks who display it feel that it means.
I understand the SA part of it. That makes it a bad call if it creates more hardship and death. Hearts and minds, got it, BTDT.
But some of us here seem close to declaring that the Marines displaying the SS symbol are praising the holocast when it's also possible they are saying "so bad-a$$ed you oughta shake in your boots when you see us".
Heck, for four years I wore an academy crest with an ancient Trojan helmet as the centerpiece of the field and I don't even LIKE condoms.
tom kelly
02-10-2012, 23:43
Yesterday is History,
Tomorrow is a Mystery,
Today is a gift, That's why its called The Present,
Live and Savor every minute; because
THIS AIN'T NO DRESS REHEARSAL.....TK
A symbol means what the folks who display it feel that it means.
Perhaps in an alternate universe or if you live in a bubble. The power of symbols and perception in human society is a constant, for better or worse all of us are under constant scrutiny, with ramifications for our words and actions. I'm all for individuality, personal expression etc, but think this through. Consider a guy who flys a NAMBLA flag from his deck because he likes the colors, and wonders why his house keeps getting egged.
This type of logic turns into a slippery slope pretty quick, in theory these Marines could display a flag with UBL's visage on it, after all to some idiots UBL was "a rugged individualist who defied an empire." Better yet consider the coconut walking around Ft. Hood with a " Free Hassan" t-shirt, citing his admiration for religious conviction. Ramifications? The majority of people on this planet see the Nazi's as examples of pure evil, uniformed members of the US military should not be stirring up these perceptions of association with Nazi heraldry regardless of their intent.
Mauser98
02-11-2012, 01:26
I live next to MCBH and work on base, and from what I've observed me the snipers here kind of try to be controversial. From guys walking around with tons of tattoos of various tough guy cliches to various of tasteless insignias on their shirts they aren't afraid to SHOW it. But they've earned that right, and it helps their morale. When you actually talk to them they are really nice, and pretty humble.
I'm sorry, but the SS runes show no identification with the actual "martial capabilities" etc of the WWII war machine. The SS were a paramilitary that violated every rule in the book. You respect German snipers of WWII? Cool, there were many honorable units that didn't rampantly slaughter people in mass reprisal. Some of these men exhibited great moral courage in facing down both pressure from their own government and physical courage when facing the enemy. But for crying out loud, you are USMC, if you want cool factor, look no further than your very own marine raiders of WWII and other such similar units. Plus it would match up better with the blood dripping smiley face headshot shirt you are wearing. :rolleyes:
So what if they were ignorant because of their lack of education? Situational awareness is important! Little culturally insensitive things like that can eventually get you hurt. But you guys know all about that.
/End rant.
Hate to say this but, it's one controversy after another with the military and it doesn't do the US military any good whenever these sorts of incidents/stories get out...some common sense is needed especially with the amount of media spotlight there is in today's society.
Common sense needed.
Spitfire34
02-11-2012, 02:24
I wonder how hard it will be for the Sgt Maj of the Marine Corps to investigate the use of the SS bolts when he himself has it tattooed on his leg. Its been the symbol for USMC Snipers for a long time, it has nothing to do with Nazi's at this point, it's simply part of the Marine Sniper sub-culture. The SS also used a deaths head skull and bones pin as part of their uniform, should we outlaw that as well? I guess I'm just getting tired of the MSM pissing on the Marine Corps every time they get a chance. Yeah we make mistakes that some may find offensive or politically incorrect but we also do a job that most would never sign up to do. Dig deep enough and you can always find a bad guy who wore what you wear...that doesn't mean you're a bad guy too. This is turning into a witch hunt.
The MRFF, an organization that is pressuring the USMC to investigate this matter fully. Chris Rodda, the MRFF's senior research director, has posted the following on the organization's website. The source is here (http://www.militaryreligiousfreedom.org/2012/02/chris-rodda-mrff-senior-research-director-those-marines-bought-an-ss-flag-without-knowing-what-it-was-seriously-that%E2%80%99s-your-excuse/).Those Marines Bought an SS Flag Without Knowing What it Was? Seriously? That’s Your Excuse?
by Chris Rodda, MRFF Senior Research Director
Of all the really hard to believe excuses the military has made for the actions of military personnel, this one has to take the cake. Those Marines posing with a Nazi SS flag in Afghanistan just didn’t know it was an SS flag!
Yesterday, this photo went viral: [Click to see image (http://freethoughtblogs.com/rodda/files/2012/02/Jerome-4.jpg)]
If you somehow managed to miss all of the countless stories about this photo, here’s the AP version (http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=news/national_world&id=8538794).
There are also a whole bunch of articles with titles like “Marines: Nazi flag was mistaken for their own (http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Latest-News-Wires/2012/0209/Marines-Nazi-flag-was-mistaken-for-their-own),” since the Marine Corps’ official excuse is that the use of the flag was just a naive mistake on the part of Marines who didn’t know what the flag was and just thought the SS stood for Sniper Scout.
Really? And just how does someone go about buying a Nazi SS flag without realizing that it’s a Nazi SS flag? Well, I spent hours yesterday afternoon and last night trying to do just that, scouring the web for an SS flag that could be bought by mistake. And, big surprise, I couldn’t find a single place where an SS flag wasn’t very clearly being sold as what it is — a Nazi flag.
In the course of searching, I found what I’m certain is the exact flag in the Marines’ photo. It’s the only one anywhere on the web with a blue background, and laying the image from the website on top of the Marines’ photo shows that every dimension of the flags are identical, from the size and proportions of every part of the logo to the slightly off-center position of the logo on the flag. You can even see in the Marines’ photo that their flag had the same creases from being folded as the flag for sale on the website.
[Click to see image. (http://freethoughtblogs.com/rodda/files/2012/02/FLAG-SS-SIG-RUNES.jpg)]
The description of the flag on the website, Traders of the Lost Surplus (http://www.totls.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=16:close-out-corner&catid=1:home&Itemid=30), is an “ss double runic flag, a favorite and well know ss flag,” and the entire website is full of Nazi stuff. No Marine, even if they previously didn’t know that this was a Nazi symbol, could possibly be so dumb that they wouldn’t realize at this point that this is a Nazi flag! Even if someone was unfamiliar with the SS logo, all the swastika items would certainly tip them off.
Here’s a screen grab from the website, with the blue SS flag at the lower left [See attachment.]
As Gawker (http://gawker.com/5883828/us-marines-sorry-for-posing-with-nazi-flag-nazi-rifle) put it, “But then how you end up acquiring Schutzstaffel flag? Unless our men in uniform sewed the flag themselves, you’d think the whole ‘Please make your check out of Nazi Memorabilia ‘R’ Us’ thing would have tipped them off.”
The Atlantic Wire isn’t buying the naive mistake excuse either, posting an article titled “Marine Corps Insists Marines Are Too Dumb to Know This Is a Nazi Flag (http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2012/02/marine-corps-insists-marines-are-too-dumb-know-nazi-flag/48533/).”
Are people in our military seriously ignorant about history? Probably.* That “Jesus Loves Nukes” missile officer training that the Military Religious Freedom Foundation got the Air Force to nix did include a slide of former Nazi and SS officer Wernher von Braun being quoted as a moral authority. And there is a constant stream of Christian nationalist pseudo-history in base newspapers throughout the military, as well as in military training presentations (but that’s a story for another day).
But historical ignorance can not excuse these Marines using the SS flag. No matter how little they know about history, it’s just impossible to believe that they could have bought that flag without finding out what it was in the process of buying it.
The Marine Corps must think we’re all pretty naive to believe their excuse that these Marines were that naive.
_______________________________________________
* Williamson Murray and Richard Hart Sinnreich raised this question in the introduction to the essays presented in The Past as Prologue: The Importance of History to the Military Profession (New York: Cambridge University Press, 2006), 1-11.
..............from folks who think a Che T-Shirt is cool.
5thgrp"C"
02-11-2012, 07:55
Before the Army I was in a Scout Sniper PLT out of Lejeune. The command can say what they want about not knowing, this symbol has been used as far back as any of us could remember. Our sniper instructors had the symbol branded into them upon graduation of sniper school, the history on that was the instructors would make the brand for the class, give one out on graduation day. Then the whole class would go out get drunk and brand each other. Now by the time my generation was going through school branding was no longer accepted so tattoos were what people got. I will say I did not considering I come from a minority filled city I didn't want to explain to each and every person that I meant for it to symbolize scout sniper. Considering most guys got it on the back of their necks, I felt they were just asking for an attack from behind, at the time I was a little older then my peers by a couple of years, maybe my indestructible toughness was already wearing off.
The sniper culture has promoted this symbol from the top down. To ride the PLT level shooters about this is the wrong answer. I remember seeing senior guys show off their brand as a mark of passage, and these were E7s and above, the guys who were in charge of the Scout Sniper School and major programs.
Then again maybe they are just paving the way to a kinder and more considerate time when women can feel at peace to join the unit.
longrange1947
02-11-2012, 08:29
I wonder how hard it will be for the Sgt Maj of the Marine Corps to investigate the use of the SS bolts when he himself has it tattooed on his leg. Its been the symbol for USMC Snipers for a long time, it has nothing to do with Nazi's at this point, it's simply part of the Marine Sniper sub-culture. The SS also used a deaths head skull and bones pin as part of their uniform, should we outlaw that as well? I guess I'm just getting tired of the MSM pissing on the Marine Corps every time they get a chance. Yeah we make mistakes that some may find offensive or politically incorrect but we also do a job that most would never sign up to do. Dig deep enough and you can always find a bad guy who wore what you wear...that doesn't mean you're a bad guy too. This is turning into a witch hunt.
Sorry Spitfire, this is controversy the Corps brought on themselves. They were warned in the early 80s when this was first brought up that it was a bad idea and would be met with scorn. Those are SS runes and they were adopted by a white supremacist in the scout snipers back in the 80s when that crap was cool. This is not the media dumping on the Marine Corps, it is the Marine Corps f**king up.
You are justifiably proud of the Marine Corps, they are a great unit wiht a proud history, this one though, not so much so.
My 2 cents and I have been around the snipers for a while.
If all this is true, and I suspect it is, then the students have been running the kindergarten for awhile now and this one is an epic fail on the part of USMC leadership. Sad. :(
Richard
The Reaper
02-11-2012, 10:23
Attention!
All hands hear this.
THE WAR IS OVER.
YOUR SERVICES ARE NO LONGER NEEDED.
ALL MILITARY PERSONNEL WILL NOW REPORT FOR REPROGRAMMING AND OUTPROCESSING.
EXCEPT THOSE OF YOU SELECTED FOR WAR CRIMES TRIALS.
That is all.
TR
CloseDanger
02-11-2012, 12:36
Forgive me of constantly trying to back our troops. Sometimes they do stupid things, but they also are embracing the suck. Ergo, as they fight the war overseas, and I fight the war here at home, I try to prevent them from being the centerpiece in a very toxic political environment.
Maybe all I should have said was "no excuse".
This is on par with those idiots who decided to piss on the corpses of the enemy, and to FILM IT :mad:
Poor disply of tact, professionalism, and SA in both cases.
Typical reply coming from an analysts
I remember when we had some guys in Group who were reenactors in the WW2HRS, including the LSSAH ( http://www.lssah.com/kt2.html ). I was looking into joining, too, but - ironically - came down on orders for Bad Tölz (the pic in the link shows the SS-Junkerschule at Bad Tölz which later became Flint Kaserne, the HQs for SF in Germany), left and never joined.
The guys who joined the LSSAH reenactors studied the history, traditions, and tactics, and wore the uniforms and equipment when participating in reenactment gatherings. Some of them were of Nordic ancestry and some just interested in the history, but I never saw anybody sport any symbolic Nazi tattos of a swastika or siegrunen.
I did meet a number of former members of the WSS during my time at Tölz and some of our guys were avid memorabilia collectors, but nobody wanted to be seen as being associated with Nazi philosophical ideals. For my part, it was both interesting and informative to sit and talk history and tactics with men who had literally spent years fighting the Soviets on the harsh OstFront - which would have been our enemy and AO if the 'balloon' had ever 'gone up' for us then.
We had a team patch made which incorporated the image of a medevil teutonic hunting dagger (which was also used by the SS), replacing the image of the vertical knife of the SF SSI to symbolize our being stationed in the former Junkerschule - but the Siegrunen and Nazi eagle were replaced with the atomic energy symbol relative to our team's focus (atchd) to prevent any misperception of our intent.
I did see such Nazi symbols and tattos while growing up - they were being used by overtly racist groups and hardcore motorcycle gang members.
It amazes me that any member or organization of the US military would think it was OK to condone or sport such an image, or claim they did not understand any of the symbolism associated with it. :confused:
Anybody check those historically challenged scout snipers to ensure they don't have their blood type tattoed under their left armpit?
And so it goes...
Richard :munchin
Marines, they're just special. :D
Whenever we have some of them transient and they get liberty and go out in town they never fail to raise the bar on stupid. :mad:
Alas, if I had a penny for every time I had to work my butt off to keep theirs out of trouble with the local LEO's I'd be a gatrizillionaire by now.
Common sense seems to become every day less common.
Red Flag 1
02-11-2012, 20:43
Maybe it's a Department of the Navy thing. This is on their Naval Amphibious Base, Coronado:
You just out did your self Pat. The perfect pic!
RF 1
Perhaps in an alternate universe or if you live in a bubble. The power of symbols and perception in human society is a constant, for better or worse all of us are under constant scrutiny, with ramifications for our words and actions.
I respect what you're saying, and I *almost* agree with the first sentence.
I come from a different universe, through time and space. (OK, time). ;)
If I weren't fearless, I'd find that second sentence almost scary. I do find it inaccurate and offer the below.
I drove a wrecker, on call at night, while I was in H.S. Took a call and turned over a flipped pickup truck that had seven very intoxicated teens, including two of my cousins.
One of the passengers was crippled by the accident, losing the use of his left arm and seriously affecting the use of his left leg. Later, he became handicapped, then disadvantaged, then impeded, then challenged. After that he was disabled and then differently abled. Wait, maybe he was challenged between being disabled and then differently abled. It's impossible to keep track.
During a long overdue HS reunion I sat down with an old friend and Johnny Walker. We decided that there were groups of Ivy League sophomores jerking American chains to see how obedient we were, possibly Yalies changing us to one term, then challenging Harvard to affect a faster change in "approved terminology" than the one they had instituted. The more Johnny Walker added to the conversation, the more we leaned toward figuring it was a conspiracy by liberal professors.
The following day with Jim Beam, we observed tradition and blamed everything on
women. (though I am still wary of Yalies). :D
I am one of the vanilla majority. Grandpa looked at the back end of a mule for 12 hours during the summer while grandma breast-fed the babies. They didn't think of alternating duties. Sorry about the lack of advancement opportunities for women during that era.
I wore the uniform of the US Army for 12 years. I did not operate Elmira Prison and did not fire a weapon at My Lai. Neither did I drop bombs on Hiroshima or Nagasaki.
During my combat time, I delivered prisoners wherever I was told, even to the infamous "White Mice". I think of them as the Vietnamese SS. YMMV.
All my baseball caps say "Army" along with whatever other witticism or boast that's included. I even put on the old field jacket as an "identity assist" when at gatherings where the vets often wander off together for "were you there when" sessions.
The symbol means what it means to ME.
And, I claim the right to be just as disobedient as the "poor me" groups.
Any person who decides to be offended by past events in my army's history....Anyone (especially reporters) who decides that MY symbols mean I am proud that prisoners starved, and that civilians have been killed...
Can look at the skull and crossbones on my hat until my fist obscures his vision. :p
The symbol means what it means to ME.
That's fine, but there are ramifications. I don't believe "off the record" exists in nature. People will form perceptions of you, most of whom don't know you based on your appearance, actions, job, vocabulary, etc, and once an impression is formed, deserved or not it will affect and follow you.
Consider someone who locks their keys in a car three times in one day, most of us would think that's pretty dumb. Say perception is Sarah Palin is an idiot, and Einstein was a genius. If each of them locked themselves out of their car three times in a day, people for this very same act would cite this as evidence, that " wow that Palin sure is dumb" but "wow that Einstein is such an absent minded genius".
or put another way on the " Common Sense Tips for Life List"
"Unless you are cool being associated with Nazis, don't get your picture taken posing next to a flag with SS runes."
falls somewhere between,
"flossing is a good idea"
and,
" don't get your wife a vacuum for Xmas." ;)
Any person who decides to be offended by past events in my army's history....Anyone (especially reporters) who decides that MY symbols mean I am proud that prisoners starved, and that civilians have been killed...
Can look at the skull and crossbones on my hat until my fist obscures his vision. :pPersons can contribute to a political sensibility in which a specific armed service is out of step with the values of the society it is tasked to protect. This sensibility can lead to the slashing of budgets and a growing disregard for that service's readiness as other services rise in the public's esteem. In the 1890s, navalists hinged their argument for a modern, ocean-going fleet at the expense of the army which they painted as a symbol of administrative inefficiency and operational incompetence.
Similarly, after the Second World War, the air force successfully challenged the navy's role as the service best suited to deter war and to project power at the strategic level. After the Vietnam War, the air force's focus on "deep battle" reflected its effort to supplant the army's role at the operational level. This effort was hastened by the abrupt end of the U.S.-Soviet rivalry, and the 'triumph' of air power in the Second Gulf War which 'proved' the revolution in military affairs. In each case, air power enthusiasts insinuated that the navy and the army symbolized anachronistic forms of warfare.
If certain groups of warriors want to claim that it is their prerogative to take a postmodern approach to history in its selection of rituals, traditions, and symbols while averring that civilians are over reacting, that's their choice.
However, these warriors should not then be surprised if civilians decide to make lasting changes in how America fights its wars. Or who does the fighting.
(And also, the logic that interested parties should not take notice or offense of how others interpret symbols undermines significantly the intellectual and political opposition to the current president and his supporters. If the symbolic significance of the American flag is in the eye of the beholder, then no one should have a problem when people decide to burn it. Likewise, if the Constitution symbolizes different things to different people, then what's the harm of taking an a la cart approach to the Bill of Rights?)
My $0.02.
I respect what you're saying, and I *almost* agree with the first sentence.
I come from a different universe, through time and space. (OK, time). ;)
The symbol means what it means to ME.
And, I claim the right to be just as disobedient as the "poor me" groups.
Any person who decides to be offended by past events in my army's history....Anyone (especially reporters) who decides that MY symbols mean I am proud that prisoners starved, and that civilians have been killed...
Can look at the skull and crossbones on my hat until my fist obscures his vision. :p
I understand where you're coming from but there is a norm in society and within that norm there is right and wrong. Would it therefore be okey for me to walk around with a AQ logo on my shirt in the states? Certainly not because of what AQ represents and what it means not only to americans, but society as a whole globally.
Yes, it may be acceptable in a country like Indonesia or some middle eastern countries to be seen wearing such a logo but by in-large, in almost all 1st world nations, espcially those who suffered dramatic destruction and huge losses of life, the SS symbol means what it means and that is a direct link to the nazi party.
I may be wrong in my opinion but that's how I see things in general. I do stand to be corrected if my points are wrong but saying "people can damn well accept me and my way of thinking if they like it or not" has its limits when its applied to certain situations.
What the marine scout snipers did/have been doing, if it is true they have been doing it for the longest time is, morally, wrong.
And if you were looking for more excuses for the media to point the finger at the USA as an example of a country that "hasn't got a clue" or "being totally ignorant of something so blatantly wrong" or "they have done it again"....this would be it.
This and the peeing on the corpse....I mean, what is seriously up with these people?
That's what I ask myself..."what is WRONG with these people's heads? Are they that uneducated or morally screwed up?"
I am not in the military and never have been and am speaking frankly from a civilian point of view.
If I may go off topic for a wee bit, there is an incident in world soccer that is going on at the moment and is controversial.
Two soccer players. A guy from Uruguay called Suarez, one of the best soccer players at the moment and scores tons of goals for Liverpool.
And a french man called Evra who is a person of Color and plays for Liverpool's fiercest rivals, Manchester United.
An incident happened during a derby match between both sides in which the word "Negrito" was used by Suarez to Evra.
An official complaint was filed after the match by Evra against Suarez for racism and eventually, after investigations, Suarez was handed a 8 match ban and didn't appeal the punishment despite the fact he claimed consistently it was normal in his country to call a person of color that word and that it was acceptable and alright.
Now, you have a uruguyan and his counterparts stating it is a norm in their country against europeans who were outraged he would even try to justify that it was alright to call another person such a word in this day and age and put it down to stupidity and a lack of common sense.
Public opinion has been against Suarez except if you're from Liverpool and a scouser who seem to think Suarez did no wrong.
So, Liverpool play Manchester United again last night and as the teams line up to shake hands, Suarez purposely walks past Evra and doesn't shake his hand causing yet another flash point as it seemed Evra had put his hand out to shake hands perhaps to get past this incident....and it has become a hot topic all over again.
Does the use of the word constitute a norm culturally that is acceptable to some, but not to others?
Utah Bob
02-12-2012, 09:17
A few basic questions.. (http://www.wimp.com/basicquestions/):rolleyes:
The symbols mean what they mean.
The death head and SS runes are what they are and are very distinct. Nazi symbols are distinct and as a history major and avid student of world history these symbols only mean today what the Nazi's used them for. Military or civilians that have collection's of military memorabilia does not make you a Nazi but when you demonstrate them as these kids did it only sent a message that they wanted to send. I have collections of many DUI's from WWI friend and foe and since then does that make me a Nazi? NO
The Marines 1st investigation was a cover your ass and now they are doing a proper one and I am sorry to say heads will roll
The Skull and Cross bones that most people see now today are associated with Pirates not the WSS. The very unique Scull and Cross Bones from the WSS is not the Pirate symbol and would never be confused for one so that argument will not work.
The Nazi symbols also as noted have been adopted by skin heads that also do not meet our societies and the US Military's moral social and moral convictions so did they not know what they were doing? Bullshit.
Plato your argument does not hold water…….You must have slipped through the system at the lower Hudson school for wayward boys. If you truly think that it is ok to demonstrate and advocate the use of these symbols then you need to relook at things and doo some studying.
Bad things happen throughout history and it is our job to not repeat them and improve this crazy world we live in. We can not go back and change history but we can make the future better because of how we study and understand history. Do not repeat those errors that affected humanity so profoundly and that are what the Nazi movement represents past and present. I do not condemn all German people and their collaborators but we have to make sure that that movement does not rear its head again.
The bottom line is that Marine unit need's to be looked at. The naive youth excuse is not holding water in my book.
This is my 5 cents
The Reaper
02-12-2012, 11:23
Anyone here who has never done anything stupid or that would reflect negatively on your service step right up and grab a rock.
The rest of us were lucky that there were no digital cameras or internet before we wised up or got out.
TR
An Iraq vet, now a Holocaust expert, explains why he exposed Marines' use of an "SS" flag.
Richard :munchin
Marines Nazi-Flag Whistleblower Comes Forward
MJ, 11 Feb 2012
Part 1 of 2
When Marine investigators learned last November that a scout sniper platoon in Afghanistan was using a Nazi "SS" flag as its standard, it wasn't a member of the unit who told them. It was Iraq war veteran Waitman Beorn, a visiting history professor at Loyola University New Orleans, also a Fulbright and Guggenheim fellowship recipient who teaches at the National Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington. Dr. Beorn's research on Nazis and genocide is informed by his military background: He is a West Point graduate and former officer who served as a scout platoon leader in Iraq from 2003-2004. Through his work he seeks to teach "ethical decision-making in a military context using the Holocaust as a vehicle."
Shortly after I first wrote about the flag controversy last week, Beorn got in touch to explain how and why he chose to report the incident to the Marine Corps' inspector general. (Though Beorn contacted military authorities, he didn't play a part in the incident's recent unearthing by the media.) For one, he had learned through military contacts that the use of the 'SS' flag was not an isolated incident. He hoped that exposing it could lead to an important "teachable moment" that might help alleviate what he considers to be a serious issue. In an email interview, he shared with Mother Jones details of how the Marine Corps responded to him, and how the Corps has since addressed this moral education issue with the troops. He said he was disappointed with the emerging media narrative that the military had responded poorly. "I was surprised by the speed with which they acted and the seriousness with which they appeared to take it," he wrote.
But he also emphasized: "I think our public needs to realize that this is not a case of the 'liberal media' going after our brave men and women in uniform. Symbols are important. They send messages. These messages are important." He explained his special interest in the SS incident with regard to military training, and what he thought would be the appropriate punishment for the service members in question—especially during wartime. In a follow-up email he wrote: "My focus is on the importance of positive unit cultures, and that the use of this image highlights a problem. For example, I was just informed that a Marine posted on a blog that he had had the tattoo for 17 years, which seems to highlight this point for me."
The following email exchange has been lightly edited for clarity.
Mother Jones: How were you made aware of the photos?
Waitman Beorn: A colleague of mine received it from a friend associated with the Marines. It was forwarded to me via email with a bit of background.
MJ: What were your thoughts on them, both as an academic specialist in Holocaust studies and as a former scout platoon leader?
WB: I was disappointed and saddened. Our military's image has been sullied of late and it was really disturbing for me to see that certain members were choosing the SS (which is in my mind the epitome of evil) as something to admire, at least its imagery. My work, as you may have noted from my CV on my website, focuses on the German military in the Holocaust, and this was particularly disturbing in that context.
As a former officer, my first thought was: Where were the NCOs/officers? This didn't seem to be taking place on a remote patrol somewhere. I have since learned that the use of SS runes is not an isolated phenomenon. Even if the Marines themselves didn’t know what the runes meant (which I can't really believe), someone did and allowed it to happen. (Note: you can find that exact flag online with the description: "7180. ss double runic flag, a favorite and well know [sic] ss flag, 3' x 5' $7.50" It is displayed on a page literally surrounded by Nazi memorabilia.) What this tells me is that those in command didn’t consider this to have been a concerning issue. That is what troubled me.
I was in the cavalry...We were perhaps not an elite unit, but we had a proud tradition and considered ourselves elite, at least in the armor community. We wore Stetsons and spurs. So I understand the importance of symbols to unit cohesion and culture. This, perhaps, made the choice of the SS runes all the more troubling.
MJ: What did you expect or hope would happen when you contacted the Marines' inspector general?
WB: First, I wanted to them aware of the situation. I contacted the inspector general because they are the ones most likely to deal with the situation.
MJ: How did things proceed from there?
WB: I was quite pleased with the response I got from the [colonel in charge of the First Marine Expeditionary Force's investigative office]. He seemed to be taking this very seriously and searching for those involved, as well as in educating the other scout snipers about the inappropriateness of this. I thought that using the incident as the basis for a class in the 1st Marine Division was an excellent response. I do want to highlight the response of the IG here. I was surprised by the speed with which they acted and the seriousness with which they appeared to take it.
The only part of the Marine Corps response that is a little troubling is the automatic assumption that these Marines had no idea what symbol they were appropriating. For example, from CNN: "They determined that the Marines in the photo were ignorant of the connection of this symbol to the Holocaust and monumental atrocities associated with Nazi Germany." I have a hard time believing that. One or two Marines, okay. But all of them, including their leadership? Also, the comment by the spokeswoman that they couldn’t have known because that's not what Marines are about seems hard to believe, as does the revelation that this is NOT an isolated incident.
(cont'd)
Marines Nazi-Flag Whistleblower Comes Forward
MJ, 11 Feb 2012
Part 2 of 2
(cont'd)
MJ: Amid all the media hubbub, what do you hope is the upshot of this, culturally?
WB: I think this is a highly teachable moment about the creation and maintenance of positive unit cultures and environments. This is exactly the kinds of discussions we have with cadets at the USHMM using, not coincidentally, the German army in the Holocaust as a teaching example of how negative command climates and unit cultures lead to atrocity. The idea, in a nutshell, is that when a unit orders, condones, or allows dysfunctional behavior (particularly racist, overly brutal, etc.) in the small things, this can metastasize into much larger violence including war crimes. See the Army "kill team" in Afghanistan.
Moreover, I think our public needs to realize that this is not a case of the "liberal media" going after our brave men and women in uniform. Symbols are important. They send messages. These messages are important. It doesn’t matter what the intent behind the use of the symbols was or what the snipers intended them to stand for. Some symbols simply have pretty solid meanings. For example, the swastika was not always a Nazi symbol, sadly. But no one would look at its use now and assume it was a reference to ancient India and that it was unfair to criticize whoever was using it. As a historian, of course, I would say this is another reason that knowing the historical provenance of images and ideas is important.
MJ: Any thoughts on an appropriate action to take with respect to the platoon with the flag? Or more broadly, what should be added to every servicemember's training and development?
WB: It appears to me that there are two extreme positions being taken. One seems to call for heads to roll (i.e. calling this a "felony"). The other seems to argue that these men are in combat and should not be punished because of the rough conditions they are in and that this is a tempest in a teacup. The latter position takes at face value that they had no idea of the provenance of the symbols which, as I said, I find incredibly hard to believe.
As far as appropriate action, certainly this depends on facts of the case not available to me. I think the education aspect is incredibly important. Not just about the racist symbols themselves, but about the choice of unit mascots, symbols, etc. Particularly given the complex battlefield in Afghanistan and the necessity to gain the support of the local population. The actions of the lowest-ranking servicepeople in this global environment can have huge strategic importance (Abu Ghraib, kill team, urination incident).
And this does not mean that being sensitive to this is an attempt at being overly PC or touchy feely. One of the reasons we don't execute prisoners, for example, beyond the more important reasons of morality and the law of war, is that such behavior makes the enemy fight harder, causes higher casualties for us, and makes the mission harder.
That being said, do the lower-ranking Marines need to be court-martialed? Probably not. Are there non-judicial punishments and remedial training that would be appropriate? I think so. As for the higher-ups, the senior NCOs and officers involved, the standard must be higher. These are the ones who create positive (and negative) climates.
Again, do they need to be in prison? No, especially given the other incidents of late which ARE of more severity. Do they need to be made an example of? Probably, depending on their level of knowledge. Can this be career ending (i.e. letter of reprimand)? I think so. But again, I think it depends on the facts of the case. I do think the Corps needs to go further than simply saying that no one had any idea what the runes meant (particularly if this has been a longer term issue that has never been brought up). They need to make more details public.
http://motherjones.com/politics/2012/02/exclusive-marines-nazi-flag-whistleblower-talks
Richard
Thanks for the post....
John_Chrichton
02-12-2012, 14:07
Are we seriously advocating criminal action against these Marines? Are we going to go down the road of investigating our troops for perceived political offenses? In that case, we ought to just institute Politruks and Commissars to ensure political correctness in our Armed Forces. (But wouldn't that be follow the example of another murderous regime?)
This symbol appears to have been a part of Marine Scout Sniper culture for a long time. In fact, a buddy of mine has the very same symbol tattooed on his body. Members of my family were exterminated by the Nazis in Ukraine. Am I then automatically offended by this symbol? No, because I understand that it has positive meaning to some who fight for this country.
This appears to be another case of political and cultural self-flagellation fueled by the MSM and academia. Since the American sheeple have abandoned their civic obligation to defend their own country to the 1%, they have also abdicated a moral right to dictate what symbols help to raise morale and create unit cohesion.
This appears to be another case of political and cultural self-flagellation fueled by the MSM and academia.
How so? Has there been an era in US history since WW2 when the results of this story would have been any different? 1955? 1965? 1975? Let's say you laud "the good old days" of the 1950's no PC back then, " the I like IKE" era, I'd wager if this story had hit back then the backlash would have been even greater from the millions of US vets who had served and lost buddies in the ETO.
You might be too young to recall the heat Ronald Reagan took for just placing flowers in a Bitburg cemetery where some of the interned were SS soldiers.
RE: Post #59 - YGBSM! :eek:
Richard :munchin
Mr Furious
02-12-2012, 19:58
I think this is way overblown, and is being stretched in every manner possible. I could be completely wrong, and these Marines are pure evil skinheads who deserve to be locked up for a long time. They're not. I have a hard time believing that these brave and proud Marines collectively and wittingly choose a symbol associated with a defeated and evil regime to align with and pay tribute to. That’s a joke. This isn’t some anti-Semitic allegiance or statement. If they wanted that they would have went for the black and silver. I think these are young Marines who think the scout sniper “SS” in the shape of lightning bolts looks good. They are proud of their service, and I am proud of them.
Much in the same manner as someone said before, regarding the two letters “s” in the Kiss emblem. Gene Simmons is Jewish and his mother was a holocaust survivor, the letters had nothing to do with a Nazi tribute. Nor was it a "fail." They were made to look like lightning bolts as a form of art.
Why slam these Marines for this, and why is are we even paying attention to this and once again diverting our attention and resources? While we’re at it, why not slam every owner of the "people's car"; Jewish owners included. Wasn’t that also a nationalist symbol of an evil regime? I highly doubt anyone thinks about Hitler, Ferdinand Porsche, or the Third Reich weapons of destruction they created and the lives lost when they turn the keys of their Jetta or Cayenne these days. Is it anti-Semitic to drive a Porsche or a Beetle? Or has enough time passed for that one and it doesn't matter if a VW was indeed created by a horrific being and his Nazi "professor"? I guess we'll let that one slide.
There are ten Marines in that photograph.
Plus a photographer.
I will assume that at least one of them is a Sergeant (E5) or higher.
And none of them knew the origin of the insignia?
As they say on the radio show "Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me" that comes under the heading of: "Things you should have learned in high school, if only you had been paying attention."
This may be a situation of "pure heart, empty head."
It's the 'empty head' that bothers me.
I think this is way overblown...
YGBSM - American military personnel, direct representatives of our government, society, and national ideals, sporting tattos and displaying a flag which symbolizes the absolute worst of Western cultural development..."overblown"...I disagree.
The Importance of Images to America's Fight Against Violent Jihadism
It is difficult to overstate the importance of images, particularly in a war waged against an enemy so focused on violence employed for its use in propaganda. It is disappointing that, a decade since 9/11, we seem to need to constantly relearn the lesson of how deep a self-inflicted wound can cut.
http://www.strategicstudiesinstitute.army.mil/index.cfm/articles/The-Importance-of-Images-to-Americas-Fight-Against-Violent-Jihadism/2012/1/24
Richard :munchin
Thought you guys might enjoy this perspective. Saw it linked from the SWJ.
http://mcgazette.blogspot.com/2012/02/ss-snowflakes-and-supervision.html
All of these events were a failure of leadership. Every Marine involved knew that what they were doing is wrong, but they did nothing to stop it. This is a problem that a safety standown, more specific regulations, and education about morality and ethics will not fix. We have fostered a culture that takes perverse pleasure in enforcing irrelevant standards while simultaneously ignoring or enabling true misconduct. We’ve fostered a generation of Marines who will look at the picture of the scout snipers and see facial hair, unbloused boots, and hands in pockets before they notice Nazi propaganda. They will quickly condemn failures in appearance but will enable and defend moral failings. They will ignore and allow a Lance Corporal to be hazed and ostracized. They will join in with the desecration of bodies. These are our priorities. But at least the grass around the battalion CP will remain undisturbed by feet clad in identical socks.
I concur that sometimes we (the military) do not see the forest through all the trees. The presence of regulations, guidelines, powerpoint classes can never make up for the absence of leadership. We don't always need to be told what is right or wrong by the media, or politicians, or our higher ups or our regulations - what we need is for true leaders to stand up for common sense and decency.
The Reaper
02-12-2012, 21:35
I think I have already done at least 24 hours this fiscal year on mandatory training. Sexual Harrassment and Rape Prevention, OPSEC training, Computer Training, Defense Travel System Training, Citibank Training, probably three full days of on-line and attended training. Probably another six hours trying to get the training documented in a database.
Why do you think that training is mandated and recorded? Other than to check the block and cover someone's ass?
Because someone did something stupid that they should have known better.
Will telling people not to do something, stop people from doing it?
Not in my experience.
But they will damn sure not be able to say that they were not told.
The next Marines who piss on corpses, haze new personnel, or pose with Nazi icons will be hung out to dry.
TR
Symbols and meaning: http://terminallance.com/2012/02/10/terminal-lance-insspiration/
Entire post.You're offering a curious argument. Among other things, it suggests that you do not have a problem with those who find inspiration in the symbols of the Nazi dictatorship because the meaning has "been changed." By offering this argument, you are displaying a frame of mind similar to those who think it is all right to use a specific epithet referring to blacks because the spelling has been changed and, therefore, the significance of the word and the history of America has been transformed through the magical power of MySpace.
Moreover, you are arguing that the armed services should not be subject to civilian authority.Since the American sheeple have abandoned their civic obligation to defend their own country to the 1%, they have also abdicated a moral right to dictate what symbols help to raise morale and create unit cohesion. Yet elsewhere, you bemoaned the possibility of the armed forces serving as a laboratory for a "grand social experiment."
So, did your initial umbrage stem from the concept of experimentation itself, or are you hoping to use the armed services for a different type of experiment altogether?
cant hardly
02-12-2012, 22:19
.
I hope that my apparently humorous approach to a serious topic translates reasonably well, as it would if we were actually using voices. I take myself with a grain of salt. I prefer an exchange of opinions with a smile. It was "the norm" in my fathers family, and worked very well for all of them.
And, I follow sandbox rule #4. If I don't respect somebody, I don't play with them.
Wow a very articulate and poetic sentence. Goes to show if you are a good talker you can justify anything including the murder of 10 million innocent people.
You're supposed to forgive the way my sentence is put together. I am phraseologically disadvantaged.
And, from my allegories, you should gather that I am saying "My hands aren't totally clean either, nor are the collective hands of any military force." Check your hamstrings. It's a long leap from there to "I approve". :confused:
Also, I wouldn't use the word "allegories" except that I'm running one of Sigaba's posts through a decoding program. That, and other strange/cool words are popping up. ;)
1. I understand where you're coming from but there is a norm in society and within that norm there is right and wrong.
2. in-large, in almost all 1st world nations, espcially those who suffered dramatic destruction and huge losses of life, the SS symbol means what it means and that is a direct link to the nazi party.
3. What the marine scout snipers did/have been doing, if it is true they have been doing it for the longest time is, morally, wrong.
1. I have, during my lifetime, seen about half the norms change. Sometimes todays norm seems better, sometimes not. However, 50 years from now a lot of todays norms will be "obviously wrong".
2. See Chevy Camaro. Actually, if I painted on the old 1960's peace symbol, formed a group and we committed atrocities, is it a peace symbol, or a symbol of atrocities?
3. I don't see "morally wrong". I see "badass" in a way that could have been better stated. I watched young black marines on cable as they went through sniper school. I don't think they are Nazis. YMMV
Persons can contribute to a political sensibility in which a specific armed service is out of step with the values of the society it is tasked to protect.
If certain groups of warriors want to claim that it is their prerogative to take a postmodern approach to history in its selection of rituals, traditions, and symbols while averring that civilians are over reacting, that's their choice.
(And also, the logic that interested parties should not take notice or offense of how others interpret symbols undermines significantly the intellectual and political opposition to the current president and his supporters.
My $0.02.
Sigaba,
I have only one disagreement with what you said here. I counted the $10 words separately, and I believe this is your $1,790.02 worth.
As for your other points, I can only respond "Huh?" :)
Plato your argument does not hold water…….You must have slipped through the system at the lower Hudson school for wayward boys.
You're a QP and this is your house. I respect both.
Ignoring your response would be rude however, therefore......
I respectfully submit the following.
There are probably a couple of hundred soldiers who would disagree with an assertion that I should have never been commissioned. At least a couple dozen of those are very qualified and respected QPs who knew me from working side-by-side.
That sounded more like a .45 firing instead of a perhaps more appropriate kick to the knee.
I understand the issue these Marines sporting symbols like Runes or the Totenkopf symbols. But considering Hitler and the Nazi's were statistically out performed by the likes of Mao Ze Dong and Josef Stalin, and no less heinous that Hideki Tojo and Japan I question the motivation of the now Holocaust Expert.
Would the Holocaust Expert have blinked an eye if the flag symbolized Mao, Stalin, Tojo, Pol Pot, Che or any other of the cadre of maniacs of the 20th Century?
SS Rune, MS13, KKK or Black Power Fist tattoos? Are any more acceptable than another?
John_Chrichton
02-12-2012, 22:51
Would the Holocaust Expert have blinked an eye if the flag symbolized Mao, Stalin, Tojo, Pol Pot, Che or any other of the cadre of maniacs of the 20th Century?
I don't know, but ask Anita Dunn!
Based on long personal experience, I'll say this:
The scout sniper community uses the SS symbol because its "badass" and it shares the same initials. It is not an advocation of the german national socialist party or any of their associated acts. They found a symbol and repurposed it.
The seals wear pirate flag patches. They are not advocating butchery and robbery on the high seas, nor paying tribute to Blackbeard. It looked cool and the took it.
Those of you equating the use of this symbol with moral statements are misreading their use in this context. Maybe we should take a hard look at all of the "assasin company" commanders, or units with callsigns like Gladiator.....after all that might be advocating slavery and forced combat for entertainment.
These marines are guilty of bad situational awareness, nothing else. For everyone who wants to make statements about twenty year old marines, in combat, acting at all times as public representatives of the government to the body politic, and the urgent need to punish them judicially..... I will say that in my humble opinion, you haven't been near a front line unit in combat in a long, long time.
Mr Furious
02-12-2012, 22:59
We know the symbol and recognize it because we’re ancient and we’re seeing this through our lens. Everyone recognizes a swastika and it’s association because that is what is universally reinforced with Nazi’s and their ideology. That SS symbol is not reinforced and in people’s faces today. Is that specific symbol taught in HS before these guys enlist? (Seriously, I’m asking) It wasn’t for me, and I’m old and retired. Those who served in Vietnam were 20 years removed from that regime and it was a bit more fresh in the minds. That would be like those serving today remembering the symbols and associations from the 1st Gulf War, 20 years ago. Flip the coin from the dark side to the good side and ask a young guy what the patch of the OSS looked like without Googling it. I doubt you’ll get a correct answer from most. When I see someone sporting the confederate colors I assume they are proud of their Southern heritage, not that they want to reinstitute human slavery. Of course it can also in context be used as a symbol of hate. Why are we not spinning up about all the different brands or logos that use the sig rune? Runes were around long before the SS. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/ancient/write-your-name-in-runes.html
Leadership always needs to step up, set the example, and be accountable. That’s not even a question. I just don't think they did this with the intention of being anti-Semitic and associating themselves with the SS. I was on a deployment where a guy from NSWU-2 was a very good tattoo artist and brought a kit with him. A bunch of team and support guys all got black tattoos depicting the head of Anubis. It was a company espirit de corps and bonding thing, and not some maligned intent or devotion to the pharaohs and ancient persecutors of the Israelites. It had nothing to do with failed leadership. Yes, I think this whole thing is blown way out of proportion and the MSM will get their mileage from it while they can.
Not to diminish the atrocities of the Nazi's but it is said that History belongs to the victors, and with that in mind General Curtis Lemay once said, that had the U.S. lost the war, he fully expected to be tried for war crimes.
Brian1/75
02-12-2012, 23:46
I think the key to this is cultural context. For instance, if I go to an Asian country swastikas are common place. It has completely different meaning. On the other hand, the Japanese Rising Sun here is kind of a 'cool' little thing. I've seen guys paint parts of their Japanese cars in this. But if I was in Korea, this would be a heinous symbol identified with years of imperial conquest and war crimes. At the same time the SS symbol in most Western culture is a symbol of heinous war crimes and white supremacist.
I'm also surprise to see so many throw out the idea that enlisted men are ignorant. I could of flown this flag in the cages at 1/75 and I guarantee at least half my platoon of young ignorant enlisted men would have called me on it. I can guarantee my entire platoon has seen Band of Brothers, and 90% of them have seen American History X and likely these Scout-Snipers have as well. No, that guy was not a Scout-Sniper, he was a white supremacist. This isn't about history. You guys might be ancient, but these symbols are part of popular culture.
Comparing the SS symbol to the Jolly Roger makes no sense. People that had to worry about that flag are no longer among the living. Pirates have been romanticized. So have Southern 'rebels.' Again cultural context. The swastika and the SS are still symbols of evil in our culture. I guarantee these men knew what it meant. Did they care? No. Should they be punished? Probably not if it's been ingrained in Scout-Sniper culture for 30 years. But these guys are still plain stupid for flying it and I am kind of about punishing stupidity. Maybe in a 100 years we can start rocking SS symbols, but it's too soon.
MOO posts #9 and #39 by QP Longrange1947 greatly undermine arguments that the use of the symbol is only about the morale of the Marines' sniper community and is therefore merely a well-intended mistake that can be explained simply by the phrase "they did not know."
I think the key to this is cultural context. For instance, if I go to an Asian country swastikas are common place.
Sorry, I beg to differ. Which asian countries specifically, please?
Since this "SS" flag has obviously been used as a symbol of USMC Scout Snipers for 30 years, I find myself wondering, why NOW, do we become horrified that these terrible Marines dare pose in front of a flag symbolizing the Nazi culture? Cultural context does not even come close to defending it in my humble opinion either. Those are American Marines, not Asian Marines. A swastika, the rising sun, or a pointy white hood might mean a hundred different things in obscure parts of the globe...
...Americans know the meaning that those symbols presently reflect.
However, where was the outcry every time such a picture like this has been taken in the last thirty years? Is this REALLY the first picture that shos scout snipers in front of such a flag? Are we just now noticing that the Marines have insidiously cultured a three decade long plot to bring acceptance of Nazi culture into the mainstream under the cover of being 'scout Snipers?
Or... have we always noticed that it was a Nazi symbol, and just didn't care? Is it because now that the Marines have been filmed urinating on dead savages, we feel morally repulsed and obligated to finally say something about the Nazi symbol on the scout sniper flag?
I don't know the right answer. I know how I would deal with it in my own unit and I wont be discussing that in this forum. I like the comment made in an earlier post - some folks will look at a picture like this and go "these dirt bags haven't shaved, and look at this punk with his hands in his pocket"
...and completely gloss over the "SS" right in the center of the photo. Is that the problem or is that just another symptom of a bigger problem?
What does that say about our current leadership climate? Are we really looking at the root cause of the problem? Are we leading troops and administering discipline based on sound bytes and video clips that make to MSNBC or the cover of the NY Times? I hope not. I hope we are treating our Soldiers, Sailors, Marines and Airmen based on simple standards of good order and discipline. Media based leadership is going to bite us all in the ass if we aren't careful.
Metaphorically, lets apply medicine to the situation... if this picture was a "cough" does it just need cough medicine or should we step back and find out what disease process is causing the cough?
...maybe ten years of Afghani dust is just irritating the throat?
...maybe the cough is a symptom of the flu?
...maybe the cough is because there is a full blown case of TB
Robitussin ain't gonna cure tuberculosis.
Again, we like to hide behind the "ten years of combat" however, there is no way I can be convinced that every Marine in that picture has spent the last ten years in combat. A few of them look like they may have even gone to a high school prom sometime in the last five years.
Ten Years in combat my ass. The photo was deliberate. Maybe they fully understood, maybe there were a few of them that really did not understand the implications... after all, its the scout sniper flag.
So... who is at fault? The platoon leader, the photographer, the guy that allowed the photo to fall into the hands of the media?
...or is it something that EVERYONE in uniform needs to work on?
Again, I dont know the real answer, I just know that things don't look right to me.
Sorry, I beg to differ. Which asian countries specifically, please?
You don't have to go to Asia, the Finnish Air Force uses it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Training_Air_Wing,_Finnish_Air_Force
And here too, Coronado, Ca.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/27/us/27swastika.html
Personally, I would be more upset over the hammer and sickle. I'm still waiting for the Commie version of the Nuremberg Trials to commence. ;)
Brian1/75
02-13-2012, 11:25
Sorry, I beg to differ. Which asian countries specifically, please?
It's a Hindu/Buddhist symbol. I've seen it throughout China and Korea and I'm sure it can be found in India. Depending where you are you might not. For instance, I doubt Japan has it since they're traditional religion is Shintoism. Even then you have immigrants that may have brought it to Japan.
Ex. http://www.swastika-info.com/images/asien/malysia/red-swastika-society.jpg
Here's a place in Malaysia. These are not neo-nazi's and the symbol has completely different meaning. I should say that when I was talking about cultural context, I was not defending these Marines. I was attacking them. Swastikas and SS symbols are not okay in our culture. And no they are not ancient or historic, it currently has meaning.
It's a Hindu/Buddhist symbol. I've seen it throughout China and Korea and I'm sure it can be found in India.
Agree. I've seen swastikas throughout the Buddhist parts of Malaysia, Thailand and China. The first time I saw one it freaked me out because it was a sign about 20' square on an old house that had been converted to a Buddhist community center.
I asked a local to explain it. Apparently it symbolizes good luck and the Buddha's heart. The word "swastika" is derived from the Sanskrit "svasti", meaning "all is well." They've used it for thousands of years and aren't going to stop because the Germans bastardized it.
But even so, I would be uncomfortable if our American military adopted the swastika to promote good luck and happiness, just because its original meaning in Asia was positive. I agree we shouldn't be using the SS as a logo/motivation either.
Count me among the ignorant who did not know what the "SS" symbol meant. I was good in math & science, not so much in history. If I was taught this, I don't remember it. I do remember the swastika. I can see how some of the guys didn't know the meaning, but I don't buy that their entire group or leadership chain didn't know.
Apparently it symbolizes good luck and the Buddha's heart. The word "swastika" is derived from the Sanskrit "svasti", meaning "all is well." They've used it for thousands of years and aren't going to stop because the Germans bastardized it.
But even so, I would be uncomfortable if our American military adopted the swastika to promote good luck and happiness, just because its original meaning in Asia was positive.
It was also thought of similarly by some Native American tribes and was the original SSI for the 45th Infantry Division (USRNG HQ'd out of Oklahoma). It was changed to the "Thunderbird" after the Nazi rise to power because we didn't want anyone to think we had units associated with their ideology. After the conclusion of WW2, the 45th did not return to the "Swastika"...and the "Thunderbird" remains a part of their SSI today.
I'd wager you won't find such symbols being used anymore around any of the areas where the Navajo or Comanche 'Code Talkers' live.
Richard :munchin
longrange1947
02-13-2012, 15:31
I'm sorry, when did the SS runes become the Swastika?????
The case is that the children stepped on their whangers and the CoC stomped on theirs. It is a symbol full of hate and they had been warned about it before. In this day, they should have known better, as the liberal press loves to slam the military whenever possible while saying they support it.
Yes they are big hypocrites but that has been that way since the 60 when Walter C started it with his BS reporting. Hell, he even admitted it for cripes sake. We can al bemoan the poor pvt caught up in this, but it is biog boy rules and they will rightfully get smacked as big boys who f**ked up.
Stop the BS it means this to others, it means what it means and that is genocide.
It's a Hindu/Buddhist symbol. I've seen it throughout China and Korea and I'm sure it can be found in India. Depending where you are you might not. For instance, I doubt Japan has it since they're traditional religion is Shintoism. Even then you have immigrants that may have brought it to Japan.
Ex. http://www.swastika-info.com/images/asien/malysia/red-swastika-society.jpg
Here's a place in Malaysia. These are not neo-nazi's and the symbol has completely different meaning. I should say that when I was talking about cultural context, I was not defending these Marines. I was attacking them. Swastikas and SS symbols are not okay in our culture. And no they are not ancient or historic, it currently has meaning.
It is not a common sight to find the logo used in asia, bar Korea and maybe certain parts of China and India. Otherwise, its never really seen though.
Just my 20 cents.
USMC logo training guide:
http://www.cracked.com/article_19045_awful-logo-design-art-form-5Bcomic5D.html
Read and heed!
And so it goes...
Richard :munchin
Marauder06
02-14-2012, 08:42
Sorry, I beg to differ. Which asian countries specifically, please?
I saw the "reverse swastika" (not the Nazi swastika, the Buddhist emblem) a lot in the Republic of Korea. That might be what he's talking about. I know they're not the same thing, but they look a lot a like. http://www.religionfacts.com/buddhism/symbols/swastika.htm
It's apparently also a common symbol in Hinduism: http://www.hindubooks.org/sudheer_birodkar/hindu_history/omkar.html
bubblehead
02-14-2012, 09:50
"they did not know."
:confused: So the SNCOs and entire leadership did not know? Or they knew and allowed the use of said flag?
Sorry, I beg to differ. Which asian countries specifically, please?
If you have Hindu friends swastikas are all over the place. They appear on religious images and holy Sanskrit texts, Swastikas were a religious symbol of "well being' thousands of years before the Nazis. This can now unfortunately lead to misunderstandings. Swastika itself is an ancient Sanskrit word. The Aryans were tribes in what is now northern India. Hitler was obsessed with Aryans legend, specifically the stories of lighter skinned peoples conquering darker skinned people with superior technology, and he obviously twisted this mythology/heraldry for his nefarious views.
None of this has to do with SS runes, they are what they are.
kawaishi
02-14-2012, 17:00
So the SNCOs and entire leadership did not know? Or they knew and allowed the use of said flag?
I believe that the leadership knew, and it's the lower enlisted that I believe may not have known. They're relatively young and not far out of high school......not dumb by any means but perhaps unfamiliar with SS symbol. I believe it would be wrong punish the junior Marines for what a generation of officers and senior enlisted have permitted and promoted in their unit. The Corps is the kind of place that if the command says those SS runes are ok then it's "OK, MARINE!" and you can continue to question your CO's judgement at your own peril.
A racist Marine might have introduced this a long time ago but by the time these guys came to 1st Recon they were greeted by senior leadership who saw no issue with practice and were damn proud of that SS symbol. The CO and the senior enlisted are responsible for allowing it to continue, but the men who embedded this into their culture are either gone or promoted.
The most senior enlisted man in the Marine Corps has no alibi and if they start disciplining enlisted men it should start with him.
From Sgt Major of Corps Mike Barrett's bio:
"In September 1987, Sergeant Barrett was assigned to 3rd Battalion, 9th Marines where he assumed the responsibilities as Platoon Sergeant of the Surveillance Target Acquisition Platoon..................................In January 1995, Gunnery Sergeant Barrett was assigned to Scout Sniper Instructor School, Quantico, Va., as the Chief Instructor."
http://www.marines.mil/unit/hqmc/smmc/Pages/bio.aspx
I never was Recon or Scout Sniper but I saw those runes. There's no way that he served two tours in that community (and once as Chief Instructor of the Schoolhouse!) and did not know about the widespread practice. On his way to the top he also served as Sgt Major of the 1st Marine Division where he could have stopped this in the Sniper community, and when he got promoted to his current job he was in the best position possible to address this but he didn't see a reason to do so.
bubblehead
02-14-2012, 21:13
One of my co-workers (retired Marine Corps O5) said it best: "no adult supervision."
Spitfire34
02-15-2012, 19:48
Once upon a time Sgt Maj Barrett was my Company 1st Sgt, he has those SS runes tattooed on his leg. He's one hell of a Marine, a legend long before he became Sgt Major of the Marine Corps. It will be interesting to see how this all plays out. Semper Fi
Once upon a time Sgt Maj Barrett was my Company 1st Sgt, he has those SS runes tattooed on his leg. He's one hell of a Marine, a legend long before he became Sgt Major of the Marine Corps. It will be interesting to see how this all plays out. Semper Fi
If that is true he may be out getting a new ink over on his leg.......
dr. mabuse
02-15-2012, 21:04
FWIW out there to any Marine scout snipers reading these posts, Carlos Hathcock
had some very, very unkind words to say about this subject in the '90's.
Seem to recall "no excuse at all..." being said among other things. :munchin
gumby2/6
02-16-2012, 15:05
FWIW out there to any Marine scout snipers reading these posts, Carlos Hathcock
had some very, very unkind words to say about this subject in the '90's.
Seem to recall "no excuse at all..." being said among other things. :munchin
What other things? Could you provide a link?
Tattooes have been the subject of many a post on this board.
Once you got it - you got it.
What's OK today might probably be "Not PC" next year.
With the Military lookin' to downsize what would happen if they cracked down on tattooes?
kawaishi
02-16-2012, 19:32
Once upon a time Sgt Maj Barrett was my Company 1st Sgt, he has those SS runes tattooed on his leg. He's one hell of a Marine, a legend long before he became Sgt Major of the Marine Corps. It will be interesting to see how this all plays out. Semper Fi
I re-read my last post and wanted to clarify that I meant no disrespect to the Sgt Major. It's because he has a reputation of being a stand up guy and a great leader that I think this may become an issue.
I can't imagine a man like that punishing Marines for following an example that he helped to set. He's not the only senior Marine to have knowledge of or participation in the SS usage, but his job does put him in the limelight.
At the risk of sounding too touchy-feely, I think that there's too much talk at this point about "punishment." MOO, this undercurrent is generating counterproductive comments on all sides of the issue that may ultimately serve to undermine the institutional legitimacy of the Marines and the intellectual effectiveness of its supporters.
I'd much prefer to see stakeholders do a good job at finding out what happened, how, and why, before making determinations as to what corrective actions should be taken.
During this process, civilian society might benefit some scrutiny. If we civilians are going to hold members of the American armed services accountable for a certain level of historical knowledge, we need to make sure that we also meet that standard. MOO, one should be sufficiently educated to make an informed choice when dealing with matters of historical significance, and to understand the potential consequences of those choices.
This is not to say that all Americans should be indoctrinated to have the exact same view of the past. Our strength as a nation grows in no small part from our capacity for rigorous debate.