Who Teaches SEAL Team 6 How to Fight?

[Richard]

Yeah...wellllll....

And so it goes...

Richard :munchin

Who Teaches SEAL Team 6 How to Fight?
Time, 2 Feb 2012

The guys who got Osama bin Laden need boxing lessons. According to a contract solicitation issued Feb. 1, the Naval Special Warfare Development Group — that’s SEAL Team 6, to us civilians — wants former special-operations types and other flying fists to school them in “combative training.”

Who’d have thunk the gang that got bin Laden would have to go outside their own tight circle to study pugilism? “Naval Special Warfare Development Group (NSWDG) personnel conduct advanced research and development of tactics for use by Naval Special Warfare Forces,” it reads. “In order to successfully conduct this mission, they must be trained and prepared to conduct a diverse range of combat skills.”

You can get aches just by reading:

Course instruction shall include all aspects of military combatives, shall be operationally focused, and shall be conducted with and without full kit using NSWDG crawl, walk, run combative training methodology. Techniques shall comply with NSWDG standard operating procedures, rules of engagement, use-of-force continuum, and deadly force restrictions and guidelines. Course of instruction shall incorporate the tactical employment of Combatives techniques while teaching students how to adapt to different scenarios and specific needs.
The contract will last for seven months, starting next month, and there’s an option to extend it for an additional year. It’ll require at least one instructor for each group of up to 30 SEALs. Private individual lessons — it’s not explained whether these are for slow SEALs or specially trained SEALs — also are part of the deal. (“Private session training will be arranged when needed through the command combative training point of contact,” the solicitation says.)

The techniques to be taught are slated to include:

— Close-quarter striking techniques to include punches, parries (blocks) and counterstrikes.

— Sound training techniques to include focus mitt and bag training.

— Advanced application to include boxing combinations, footwork and balance and self-defense.

— Combative training shall include close-quarter striking techniques, close-quarter hand-to-hand combat fighting and defensive counterstrike techniques.

— Combative training shall provide techniques and procedures based on current and real-world scenarios.

— Combat training shall work effectively with NSWDG-provided equipment (i.e., headgear and boxing ring) and shall be applicable in confined spaces or shipboard environment. Government-furnished Special Operations Forces (SOF) related Personal Protection Equipment and weapons will be implemented during training, as well.

— At the conclusion of each course of instruction, the student experience and practical levels of capabilities will be increased in the following areas to the greatest extent possible under the time provided: footwork, balance, blocks, punches, counterpunches and clinch work, offensive and defensive boxing techniques and multiple-opponent strategies. Initial student experience will vary from three (3) to fifteen (15) years of related training.

With students boasting up to 15 years’ training, the teachers had better be pretty skilled. The winning contractor will meet the following requirements:

— Instructor(s) shall be nationally or internationally recognized at world-level competitions such as the Junior Olympics, the International Military Sports Council and the National USA boxing golden gloves.

— Instructor(s) shall possess an established background in employing and incorporating Western Boxing techniques into tactical military scenarios to include, but not limited to, Close Quarter Battle (CQB), Military Operations on Urban Terrain (MOUT) and Visit, Board, Search and Seizure (VBSS). Instructor(s) shall have verifiable experience training various military groups.

— Primary Instructor shall have a minimum of five (5) years of SOF experience; minimum 10 years experience in teaching beginner through advanced students; recognition nationally and militarily as a boxing expert.

— Contractor shall have prior experience in the development and delivery of a combative-skills course to Special Operations Forces (SOF).

The lessons will take place at the SEALs’ East Coast outpost at Virginia Beach, Va. Given all the tough requirements, SEALs — and would-be SEALs — will be hearted to know that the training should occur only during “normal working hours” from 7:30 a.m. to 4 p.m.

Pass the ice packs, please.

http://battleland.blogs.time.com/2012/02/02/who-teaches-seal-team-6-how-to-fight/?xid=newsletter-weekly

[Badger52]

The winning contractor will meet the following requirements:
If I had an old buddy who I wanted to sole-source, but couldn't, that's how specific I'd write the solicitation.

Ice packs, or ice chests?

[Sarski]

Nationally recognized? There goes that secrecy thing again; and probably comes with its own baggage. Guess judo is off the table as well, though it seemed to work for our forces long ago.

They could look to the MMA crowd, but between jail time and performance enhancing drug use that individual might find it difficult to get the clearance to get on base.

[Utah Bob]

I thought they just used The Force.:rolleyes:

[Streck-Fu]

WTF ever happened to quietly sending a few of your guys out to learn a skill and bring it back to each the other team members?

How the hell is the training they need not available organically?

[akv]

I wonder if Crazy Monkey Defense would fit their needs.

[Badger52]

WTF ever happened to quietly sending a few of your guys out to learn a skill and bring it back to each the other team members?You mean just find the training source, cut a few TDY orders to cover LoD issues, and put the rest of the course cost on an IMPAC card...?
Shhhhh. :cool:

[Richard]

Since Mike Echanis is gone, sounds like a job for Tim Kennedy...

http://www.fayobserver.com/articles/2010/06/02/1003685?sac=Sports

Richard

[greenberetTFS]

I recall when I was in the 77th,they had us out several times with a Judo guy who thought us some basic moves,but the real interesting part was that before we were taught aggressive training we were required to learn how to fall......:eek: Yep,that's right,until we passed by demonstrating our ability to fall and recover we weren't shown anything else...........:rolleyes:

Big Teddy :munchin

[Streck-Fu]

I recall when I was in the 77th,they had us out several times with a Judo guy who thought us some basic moves,but the real interesting part was that before we were taught aggressive training we were required to learn how to fall......:eek: Yep,that's right,until we passed by demonstrating our ability to fall and recover we weren't shown anything else...........:rolleyes:

Big Teddy :munchin

Typical judo. It mirrors my experience with it when I was younger.

I moved on to Muay Thai.

[akv]

Until they can get their hands back on a weapon, "Simple" western boxing mixed with wrestling/Jiu Jitsu might even work against those elite Iranian female Ninjas...

[Richard]

Jujitsu, karate, kung fu, muai thai, mma...meh...we had an ammo belt in Ka-Gun. ;)

Richard :munchin

[Streck-Fu]

lol

Reminds me of a friend of mine years ago I worked with. I was in my 20's him his 40's. He was a Vietnam vet and had studied karate since he was a kid. He told me once "Karate is the last thing you use. Before that use ka-gun, ka chair ka knife, ka bat. "

LOL....:lifter

I prefer stand off weapons as well. Muay Thai was a hell of a work out though....

[fasteddie565]

If I had an old buddy who I wanted to sole-source, but couldn't, that's how specific I'd write the solicitation.

Ice packs, or ice chests?

I think badger nailed it, sounds like a "Favorite Son" Contract to me

[tunanut]

Sounds like they need this guy. He was a SSG,,,,,,, in the Army.

[Richard]

Maybe these guys are looking for work... :rolleyes:

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.325925580757786.97641.158359874181025&type=3#!/pages/Special-Operations-Combative-Arts-Association/158359874181025

And so it goes...

Richard :munchin

[Sarski]

Okay. So the qualifications desired have been posted. I have given this some thought.

Do they want the Basic Course or the Master Course? Because if they want the Basic Course it will run $10 mil for 5 years, and if they want the Masters Course it will run $17 mil also for 5 years.

If selected composition of team will meet all requirements and SEAL laison or two, and Rougish type barristers added in.

Housing for team members will be off base to include suitable rental property houses condominiums, and/or hotels for travel. This along with transportation, per diem and expenses coomprise a portion of these fees.

I ran these numbers by my sensei, and he is not only on board but convinced we can provide this service for this price.

At the end of five years we continue for another five years.

[Kasik]

From Full Contact Magazine, December 1994, "Undefeated and on a Roll - Rickson Gracie".

Full Contact: What is your favorite multiple opponent technique?

Rickson: My Sig-Sauer P220 .45 caliber pistol. It is the best "technique" in this situation, I believe.

Full Contact: Are you a good shot?

Rickson: Yes.

:lifter

[Trapper John]

From Full Contact Magazine, December 1994, "Undefeated and on a Roll - Rickson Gracie".

Full Contact: What is your favorite multiple opponent technique?

Rickson: My Sig-Sauer P220 .45 caliber pistol. It is the best "technique" in this situation, I believe.

Full Contact: Are you a good shot?

Rickson: Yes.

:lifter

Yep that's the way to do it, IMO.

So, the thing that jumped out to me about this solicitation is that it is focused on boxing skills. Not the best technique for CQB IMO. All fights go to the ground and the guy on top wins, or so I was taught. Looks like this solicitation is 'wired' for somebody's buddy. JMG ;)

[Streck-Fu]

Not all fights go to the ground. I would agree that most fights go to the ground if at least one fighter is focused on ground techniques. but for a good strike fighter or boxer, the fight could easily be over before it goes to the ground.

I took and handgun class a few years ago with pat MacNamara and the subject of fighting came up during a break. I guess Mac gets asked such questions frequently as he posted an answer to m4carbine.net. I won't attempt to paraphrase and quote him as this is pretty much exactly what he told us in class; link (http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?94776-combat-fitness/page3)


As often as I get asked to recommend a handgun, I get asked what I believe to be the most effective fighting style. Uh, I’m not sure that there is one. A sociopath with zero training in martial arts can probably tear the walls down on a black belt with no chutzpah. Cunning, strategy, tactical deception, and audacity will win the day over how well you can punch the air or break a board.

Professional fighters are extremely devoted. Most are born with athleticism and dedicate years to their craft. Even a professional fighter will default back to primal skills and lose style points in a street fight, where there is no information about your opponent, no specific start time, no set venue, and no rules!

Styles are numerous. Most fighters and fans of fighting are passionate about a certain style. For instance, jiu-jitsu proponents will tell you that 95 percent of all street fights end on the ground, so ground fighting should be studied as your primary means of self-defense. I agree that jiu-jitsu is an effective style of fighting, especially while it teaches that a smaller, weaker person can successfully defend against a bigger, stronger assailant by using leverage and proper technique—most notably by applying joint locks and chokeholds to defeat the other person. However, approximately 100 percent of fights start on one’s feet. If you intentionally take matters to the ground, you are relinquishing your number-one defense mechanism as a human being, which is mobility … and …? You got it, mobility equals survivability.

Decades ago, I dabbled in Taekwondo, which is a Korean martial art and the national sport of South Korea. I then moved on to Muay Thai while working in Thailand. Muay Thai is a combat sport from Thailand that uses stand-up striking along with various clinching techniques. This vicious closed-quarter style of fighting sold me when I got my ass handed to me by a 140-pound Asian guy. Years later, I got my ass handed to me again, but this time in a boxing ring. Just when I thought I was invincible, I got dropped by a left hook. Back to the basics I went.

Since this is an emotional topic, I will preface this next bit by stating that this is my opinion. I am just one guy with lots of opinions, and here is one of them:
If you want true bang for the buck, join a boxing gym. Boxing skills will build a sound foundation on which all other styles of fighting can set. Lateral movement, non-telegraphic motion, zone awareness, spontaneity, and fear management are all skills you can learn from boxing. You will learn quickly how to throw straight and accurate punches in bunches with devastating effect.
We are not all born with rhythm and athleticism, and those are things that cannot be taught. You can, however, learn to manage and compartmentalize your anxiety. You can become aware of your safety—or reactionary—zone. You can also learn how to take a punch and how to throw an effective blow without broadcasting it. These can all be learned fairly quickly when being taught by an experienced boxing coach.

If you learn and practice the most basic of boxing moves, you will know more than most of the thugs on the street. These moves work well from a nonaggressive stance. Being nonaggressive is of huge tactical importance. You can either escalate aggressive behavior or deescalate it depending on your demeanor. You want to change the tempo of the aggressive behavior to act in your favor. You may even win the day through psychological operations and tactical deception. Psychological operations are planned operations to convey selected information to influence emotions, motives, and objective reasoning.

There are plenty who will argue that I am dead wrong. Understandable! Fighting and styles is an emotional topic. At the end of the day, it doesn’t matter. If we are attacked with surprise and violence of action, no amount of training can save us. We can mitigate the surprise by exercising a little situational awareness.

This is worth mentioning again. If we take the element of surprise away from a predator, he will fear reprisal and forgo the attack.

It is simple tactics. Action versus reaction. If you are aware, you are acting. If you are switched off and have no situational awareness, you are one step behind and will at some point in time, fall into a predator’s web.


And there is this.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7157QMW9abM

[1stindoor]

I had a commo man (hispanic) tell me he studied Puerto Rican Judo...

Judoknow I gotta knife

Judoknow I gotta gun

Judoknow I gotta pipe

Basically judoknow what I gonna use to win.

For the "older crew" on Bragg...who remembers LINES training? Or Wing Chun?

[Flagg]

WTF ever happened to quietly sending a few of your guys out to learn a skill and bring it back to each the other team members?

How the hell is the training they need not available organically?

I've heard about service disabled/combat injured veterans becoming uber-SMEs in other disciplines.

I wonder if that could apply to unarmed CQB?

If so, why not?

This thread make me want to crack open an old book about William Fairbairn!

[akv]

FWIW though a military unit might have different needs, a few LEO friends have high phrase for the SouthNarc ECQC stuff. They pad up and then go full speed, there are combatives type strikes and grappling all focused on weapons retention and getting a knife or gun into the fight ASAP.

[Streck-Fu]

a few LEO friends have high phrase for the SouthNarc ECQC stuff.

That class is on my short list.....unfortunately, scheduling makes it hard to complete stuff on the list...

[Old Dog New Trick]

I'd like to say first that all truly good fights go to or end up on the ground: for at least one of the participants. That's 100%!

Now, that may take only a few seconds or more than a minute but someone will end up on the ground in a fight. Fight might not be over.

It's best to still be standing at that point.

Now, a word of sage advice - reflexive movement of the chin (or jaw) into chest to protect the Trigeminal nerve should at least provide the opportunity to counter attack when sucker punched. (Think of the "Knockout Game")

Then it's best to deploy a winning technique! (Palm-heel strike to the chin or face, clear and draw weapon of choice!) 😉

[MtnGoat]

WTF ever happened to quietly sending a few of your guys out to learn a skill and bring it back to each the other team members?

How the hell is the training they need not available organically?

BwaHaha. .. Yeah right. Oh is that they that the way you do it.

[mark46th]

I saw Udo Walther(RIP) in the ring while in the 46th SFCo. We had a boxing team but I don't know if he was on the team or just sparring. He drew quite a crowd and held his own.

[The Reaper]

The way I heard it was that the winner in a real fight was the one whose buddy showed up first with a loaded weapon.

TR

[Flagg]

Since it's already gone a bit off topic, does anyone know what CQB, unarmed combatives training was like in the very early days of SF?

Was it a carryover of Fairbairn/Sykes/Applegate from the WWII OSS days?

I've read Fairbairn was a fan of learning/experimenting with a bit of everything he could find outside the "box" of traditional boxing, karate, judo, etc.

And did combatives change again when SF split and set up in West Germany?

The only thing I've seen is the odd photo or mention of Karate/Judo that looks to date to the late 50's, early 60's.....which is quite interesting because it precedes the Hollywood popularization of Karate/Judo by quite some time.

I'm not implying SF would follow Hollywood or vice versa, but just noticing how it would appear to be another example of something experimented/implemented by SF well before it hits mainstream...a bit like those sights used by the Son Tay Raiders and what we see today.

[mark46th]

I don't remember any type of organized training. My first team sergeant in 1971 was a martial arts guy and would take a few of us younger guys out for some basic self defense. Actually, I think he just liked smacking and throwing us youngsters around.

[PSM]

and of course, archery.

I was watching Best Ranger a couple of weeks ago and they tossed in archery as a mystery stake. While the distances were short, it was pretty funny watching the guys fumble with the arrows. :D And no, I would have been just as bad...probably worse. ;)

Pat

[Knight]

IMO h-t-h should always be a last resort. I'm sure you guys have experienced, or know those select few who have had to resort to it. Also, self defense is largely psychological, and many times that "wins" a street fight or diffuses it before physical action comes into play. Not hard to believe that MMA fighters die in street fights, and in saying that I'm not being disrespectful to their abilities or their skills, it's just very real. Interesting conversation.

[WarriorDiplomat]

IMO h-t-h should always be a last resort. I'm sure you guys have experienced, or know those select few who have had to resort to it. Also, self defense is largely psychological, and many times that "wins" a street fight or diffuses it before physical action comes into play. Not hard to believe that MMA fighters die in street fights, and in saying that I'm not being disrespectful to their abilities or their skills, it's just very real. Interesting conversation.

I agree to some extent on the Psychology piece and to some extent on the MMA piece given that MMA is a sport with rules and the streets and battlefields have none.

As a level 4 MACP and SOCP Instructor amongst other stuff I grew doing in and out of the streets and running with nefarious characters who do bad things. What I dislike about MACP is it mimics MMA and everyone seems to forget that the things that we teach are nothing more than a foundation and not meant to replace everything. Unlike the SEAL's program SCAR that insisted on their students not training anything else because the training creates psychological scars(bad habits). The intent was for a program that made soldiers train in H2H that had live results. I do not care for the confusion between MACP and MMA unfortunately it is what it is.

The guys I know who will not train H2H are fearful of being exposed as helpless without a gun. This IMHO is why many longtabbers today will not train it and to some extent I understand that if they are leadership they don't ever want their authority questioned. The shame is someone being in a unit that travels the world into inhospital places where warrior exist and couldn't defend themselves if they had too.

IMHO opinion the willingness to fight is worth more in warrior cultures than the ability to fight well. Skills can be taught!. A Green Beret should be a dangerous man with or without a weapon in his hand

The dynamics of the units today are full of adventure seekers not all are warriors. Many did not grow up poor in rough areas with rough people and do not have that life hardening experience and experience to know how fast situations like that develop amongst people who are not wired like normal reasonable people.

You can take a talented athlete and turn him into a tier 1 level operator if he has the mindset to train hard enough. But you cannot turn him into a warrior but he can appear to be one without ever having to prove he will face the enemy without or without a weapon if that is what it takes. Without H2H training the ever present reminder of this being a warrior culture can be forgotten. Being warriors can easily become an illusion if the rubber never meets the road.

[Kasik]

Wow :eek:

Great question.

I have a reprint of a very small booklet dating back to the early 70s discussing / picturing very basic Tae Kwon Do thought processes and techniques. Will dig it out this week from storage and get the specifics.

Fairbairn, of course, authored two mainstays for military combatives. "Scientific Self-Defense" and "Get Tough!". The first was reprinted by William Cassidy "for the estate of W.E. Fairbairn". Of the two SSD is much more detailed.

Colonel Applegate (former OSS) did quite a bit of work in this area and knew Fairbairn quite well. As with Fairbairn, Applegate's work was a cornerstone and wonderfully "down and dirty".

After that it becomes whatever and whoever was available or popular at the time where SF was / is concerned.

[Kasik]

Snippet of H2H SF history -

In a 3-page Letter of Instructor (LOI) date 17 December 1975 and signed by CPT John M. Mears, the Assistant AG at USAJFCCENMA, the program at the time offered the following Objectives:

- To provide instruction in individual close-combat techniques

- To provide individual athletic participation, develop esprit de corps and furnish spectator entertainment

- To provide an alternative to routine training and running in the exisiting "Fit to Fight" program

- To provide a basis for selecting a HD/TKD team to represent USAJFKCENMA in the Fort Bragg TKD Tournament

The intended program was to include a civilian instructor from XVIII Airborne Corps in "establishing an HD/TKD School" with the Intent of creating XVIII H2H cadre.

According to the LOI the responsibilities of the USAIMACENMA as assigned to the ACofS, G1 included:

- USAIMACENMA would have overall responsibility for the program

- Would establish the USAIMACENMA HD/TKD School

- Would select and request individuals to be instructors for the school, if required

Unit commanders would:

- Encourage HD/TKD participation during the "Fit to Fight" period

- Provide instructors for the school, if required

- Ensure attendance requirements for individuals training as instructors

Facilities for the new school were in Building H-T-2237 then located at the corner of A and Ninth Streets, SBH.

Individuals selected for instructor training were placed on Special Duty from 0700-1600 for a two-week period. They were exempt from all other duties during this time.

The official references at the time included:

XVIII Airborne Corps and Fort Bragg Circular 28-1, FY 1976 Fort Bragg Sports Program and XVIII Airborne Corps and Fort Bragg LOI for Tae Kwon Do.

[Kasik]

US Army Special Forces Hand-to-Hand Fighting (Karate/Tae-Kwon-Do) - ST 31-204.

Published by USAJFKCENMA for resident and non-resident instruction at the US Army Institute for Military Assistance Only.

Edition I have is GOV Print 1980.

Instructional photos are Instructor/Assstant Instructor centric.

Neat little bit of SF H2H history.