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VanZwieten
02-06-2012, 17:10
Quiet professionals:

As my bio reads, I am currently in ROTC studying to become an officer. I am a MSIII now and will be going to LDAC this summer. I have spent a lot of time studying patrol leading and listened as much as I can to my sergeant and officer instructors, so I feel quite competent in all the basic checklist type stuff for leading a patrol. I've also been on many FTXs and feel like I've seen some good and some bad patrols (as far as cadet land goes.)

The area I would like to most direct your attention is the planning/prep phase from receiving the OPORD through rehearsals and PCI, though execution of course is important.

What I would like to know are the little innovative tricks that can be used to accomplish the mission. I'm always trying to innovate one more thing that will let it go smoothly, and I thought to myself, "Who knows patrols better than the Quiet Professionals?"

So I thought I might ask if you gentlemen have any tricks that you've seen really work well. I know everything will be different in the real world, but maybe I can just jot down notes and think of any way to apply it to my training environment. I also don't want to make you feel like I'm cheating off of your hard work, hopefully we can think of this as passing hard-earned experience down to a future Army leader.

Most respectfully.
VanZwieten

Dozer523
02-06-2012, 17:36
I would start by looking in the Home> the Pipeline> 18A section.
I'd get a copy of a RANGER handbook, too.
Good luck at LDAC.

PRB
02-06-2012, 19:07
You don't have enough experience for 'tricks'....tricks kind of come to you as you experience the feel for your enemy, when you get to know him and can play him against himself.
I've been an ROTC MSIII istructor at a University and then at summer camp.
1. keep it simple...you are working with other cadets.
2. Just the basics.
3. If everything goes to shit.... assault, be aggressive, decisive.
4. Keep it simple.

Peregrino
02-06-2012, 19:32
You don't have enough experience for 'tricks'....tricks kind of come to you as you experience the feel for your enemy, when you get to know him and can play him against himself.
I've been an ROTC MSIII istructor at a University and then at summer camp.
1. keep it simple...you are working with other cadets.
2. Just the basics.
3. If everything goes to shit.... assault, be aggressive, decisive.
4. Keep it simple.

Hmmm - Good advice for just about everywhere. Especially #1 and #4. Add stress, fatigue, hunger, etc. and even the most experienced Soldier will be almost as "obtuse" as an average cadet is normally.

scooter
02-06-2012, 20:43
You don't have enough experience for 'tricks'....tricks kind of come to you as you experience the feel for your enemy, when you get to know him and can play him against himself.
I've been an ROTC MSIII istructor at a University and then at summer camp.
1. keep it simple...you are working with other cadets.
2. Just the basics.
3. If everything goes to shit.... assault, be aggressive, decisive.
4. Keep it simple.

Great advice.... I like #3, you don't see that advice as often as you would think.

Santo Tomas
02-07-2012, 07:07
You don't have enough experience for 'tricks'....tricks kind of come to you as you experience the feel for your enemy, when you get to know him and can play him against himself.
I've been an ROTC MSIII istructor at a University and then at summer camp.
1. keep it simple...you are working with other cadets.
2. Just the basics.
3. If everything goes to shit.... assault, be aggressive, decisive.
4. Keep it simple.


Great advice right there. You have to master the basics first.

Warchief
02-07-2012, 09:59
One of the most important rules I learned about being a Patrol Leader in Ranger School was, "Don't ever violate the PRCS (Pricks) principle."

1. Planning
2. Reconnaissance
3. Control
4. Security

craigepo
02-07-2012, 11:29
One of the most important rules I learned about being a Patrol Leader in Ranger School was, "Don't ever violate the PRCS (Pricks) principle."

1. Planning
2. Reconnaissance
3. Control
4. Security

Long ago, when I went through Ranger School, the way we memorized this was:
"Puerto Ricans Suck C*&$ Continuously"
1. Planning
2. Reconnaissance
3. Security
4. Control
5. Common Sense

I'm sure the new politically correct version works better. No offense meant to my Puerto Rican brethren. Does make it pretty easy to remember though.

x SF med
02-07-2012, 13:37
Sometimes the shortest distance is through the swamp/thicket/draw or over the mountain/hill, sometimes it isn't.

Once you get comfortable with patrolling and land nav that statement will make all the sense in the world.

VanZwieten
02-07-2012, 15:48
Thank you very much for your wisdom. I have the RANGER handbook and am familiar with the elements of patrol, but since you really have emphasized them I'll pay more attention to them than I have.

And on the last post, it drives me nuts how cadets totally ignore the map when planning a patrol. We've spent mind-numbing hours in class talking about the importance of terrain, and I understand these aren't real patrols and real lives are not on the line but you would think we would want to apply the things we learn a little more.

Dozer523
02-07-2012, 16:02
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CI1cj3sbUgA&feature=youtube_gdata_player
When it all turns to sh!t (and it will) remember the magic words.

Follow Me!

tom kelly
02-07-2012, 16:38
1. There are none, You will be in somebodies AO, NOT YOURS, who do you think has the advantage? Your adversary & his associates have probably been there all of their life& will know every square meter your passing thru. 2. STUDY & Read the Ranger Handbook....TK

Dozer523
02-08-2012, 12:51
Tom, you are absolutely right in the real world but the young Padiwan is going into a place (LDAC) that is isn't really all that real.
LDAC is a place where young men and women bet thier entire futures on 27 day, where they are at the mercy of 49 other cadets who are betting it all, never knowing when they will be placed into a leadership position or under what conditions and most of the evaluations are remarkable subjective.

If you want to do well at LDAC.
Don't show up at 0800, we're really not ready and you look like the cadet equivalent of a Spring Butt. Your "reward" will be a stressful leadership position that doesn't count. (Disregard, if your name starts with a letter following "M" -- be there at 0900. -- leadership positions are handed out alphabetically. >M have a long wait. Take the free one so the TACs see you). Show up at about 1100. Don't show up after 1400.
In the holding area stay off your phone (you get to keep them for a couple of days) You are not ET.
When the Tac NCO walks over toward the holding area GET UP and walk over to him. Smile if you want but try to look eager and situationally aware.
Do exactly what he tells you, quickly.
Make the other bunk, your bunkmate is your Ranger Buddy. Let him know before he even meets you that you "have his back".
Don't bring extra stuff, we just take it away. We inspect it, and we laugh about it behind you. Boys bring plain underwear, girls bring plain underwear. Bring extra socks.
Don't be late, don't let your bunkmate be late or your squad.
Nothing and no one will get you through this except your squad. They are the only ones you need to worry about, or care about. If by some trick of fate another cadet from your school is in your platoon you owe him or her nothing.
If someone told you to do something, do it. Then tell them you did it and ask if they want to inspect it.
If you have nothng to do, inspect yourself and rearrange something. Invite your bunk buddy to inspect or help. Go to your squad leader and suggest something YOU can do, make it look like his idea.
Once someone does something that works, always do it that way. The wheel doesn't have to be big or pretty it just has to roll. Incrimental improvements are okay. When something doesn't work don't do it that way again.
Lock your damn wall locker, and lock your buddies.
Yes, there are gurl cadets in the barracks. They are your sisters. No peeking. AND it's a good idea to find out if one of the TACs has a teenage daughter -- they will tend to be a little more protective (after a week or so they will all remind him of his little girl), don't mess with them.
Run on your own during the little down time. FT Lewis is at sea-level and that will make a difference. Push ups and sit-ups every day. there ain't time for organized PT.

STX and Patrolling.
Know how to execute the basic missions.
Issue a good WARNO
Take your time on the OPORD (use all the 1 part of the 1/3 rule)
Briefback and rehearse and inspect and rehearse and briefback and inspect
SP means Start Point. Not Wait Around Here Point. The first person crosses ay M-minute. The PSG (or BTL) watches everyone cross then sends up the count
Know who passed LandNav the first time and make sure they are navigating.
If the STX evaluator says something like, "I want to see something Innovative." Smile, nod and then do it exactly the way you think it should be done. He's bored, but he's not betting his whole life on that card.
When the column stops move off the trail , take a knee. If you're the PSG move to the front.
Whisper in the boonies. The only time you speak above a whisper is to YELL "FOLLOW ME!"
Know how to employ a Claymore mine.
Be funny. If you are not funny like the funny guy.

I'll probably think of some more. I was a TAC and it was one of the most rewarding events of my career.
But here is the thing.
LDAC is a test. you are competing WITH the others against YOURSELF.

I have been to some cool class and schools. I always wanted to do well, do my best. but I knew that if something went wrong the worst thing that would happen was I'd go back to my unit and maybe take a ribbing or an ass-chewing. If you screw up LDAC you have nowhere to go. Never forget you are betting YOUR WHOLE LIFE on this.

greenberetTFS
02-08-2012, 13:34
Dozer,

I've never been to Ranger training but after reviewing your post I can sincerely say I wish I had your advice on my first patrol..........;) That was some damn good info you put out for any young trooper's first patrol...........:D

Big Teddy :munchin

Jefe
02-09-2012, 20:19
The One Minute Guide to Paragraph 3 - Execution:

How am I going to get in
How am I going to do the Job
How am I going to get out
What am I going to do if it all falls apart?

Terrain Use

Keep the sun behind you as you close on an objective in daylight (they cant see well peering into the sun and their optics are like signalling mirrors)

Put the moon behind the OBJ at night as it will silouhette them and cast shadows on you.

If you get compromised (detected) kick off your attack or break contact.

Check out the Sapper Handbook as well. I found its patrolling material to be better than the Ranger Handbook.

Jefe
02-09-2012, 20:32
Just in case you're not already:

Task out your paragraphs in the WO

APL/PSG does 4, RTO does 5 and you do 1-3. You can have somebody else do 1, but I advise against it. This takes a load off you, shows you are delegating as you should and familiarizes your key guys with the plan (cause they are doing it!).

good luck.

VanZwieten
02-10-2012, 14:52
Dozer:

Thank you very much, that specific advice is AWESOME and I've got it down in a notebook. It's cool to hear that you worked LDAC and even better to hear that you found it so rewarding. And thank you for recognizing the significance it is to my life; it may not be Ranger school, but it can definitely have serious consequences, good or bad.

My favorite is "Be funny. If you are not funny like the funny guy." Luckily, I find it easy to make buddies and I'm hoping to use that influence to help motivate my squadmates.

Others: I can't believe how much I'm learning for this. My unit has great instructors and advice, but I can see that it gets kind of homogeneous and it's awesome to get outside scoop.

The Reaper
02-10-2012, 17:37
Dozer:

Thank you very much, that specific advice is AWESOME and I've got it down in a notebook. It's cool to hear that you worked LDAC and even better to hear that you found it so rewarding. And thank you for recognizing the significance it is to my life; it may not be Ranger school, but it can definitely have serious consequences, good or bad.

My favorite is "Be funny. If you are not funny like the funny guy." Luckily, I find it easy to make buddies and I'm hoping to use that influence to help motivate my squadmates.

Others: I can't believe how much I'm learning for this. My unit has great instructors and advice, but I can see that it gets kind of homogeneous and it's awesome to get outside scoop.

This is not where your first post belongs.

TR

pjbluetogreen
02-10-2012, 21:00
Piss poor planning produces piss poor performance!!!
Plan (KISS: keep is stupid simple), Check your Plan, Rehearse, Inspect your teams gear (and yours), Rehearse IADs and your plan B for when it all goes to hell.
When all else fails don't forget to Shoot Move and Communicate

hotshot
02-10-2012, 21:50
I don't think anything has been missed, but here are my 2 cents..

Understand and utilize the Troop leading procedures. If you don't know what to do next, ASK. Never violate the Principles of Patrolling. METT-TC will drive most all of your decisions. OKOCA will dictate how you move on the ground. Understand that different instructors will have their idea of what right looks like. Find out what that is, and do it that way. If you find yourself with nothing to do, YOU are MISSING something! Time will always be your biggest enemy, so use it wisely. Reference the Ranger HB Feb. 2011 version if you are stumped. There were are also some minor doctrinal changes, so make sure your RHB is the version I stated previously.

I threw out a few Acronyms and other terms that consist of various sub-tasks. Don't just memorize them, understand the "why" behind the "what" when you are doing each step.

I'm sure I could go on longer, but my Guinness is getting warm.

What you gonna do PL?

CH

NeverSayDie
02-11-2012, 01:38
While never having never been to LDAC, I do remember a peice of advice given to me by one of my MSIV's who made it into the double digits of the OML, right before I lead my first lane:

"Violence of action on the objective, and command presence. Its so simple that everyone forgets to make it a priority, but its F*cking vital. Get everyone hyped up! have'em do jumping jacks if you have too, but don't let them start just going through the motions or lull themselves into a relaxed state. If you let them do that, they won't snap out of it until the lane walker assigns the third casualty"

Dozer523
02-11-2012, 05:51
Check out the Sapper Handbook as well. I found its patrolling material to be better than the Ranger Handbook. I love it.

This is not where your first post belongs.

TR OMG Van. Now I have to kill you.

The Reaper
02-11-2012, 10:08
While never having never been to LDAC, I do remember a peice of advice given to me by one of my MSIV's who made it into the double digits of the OML....

This has got to be the beginning of some really solid advice and a great war story.:rolleyes:

Is there a shortage of professionals on this site with CIBs, SF and Ranger Tabs to dispense first-person patrolling advice?

TR

zoolander6
02-24-2012, 03:00
Dont ask for tricks, dont ask for advise. Learn from your mistakes, youll remember them more once you recycle. The lessons learned will follow you for the rest of your life and benifit you more when it counts OCONUS instead of G2'ing a situation or school. If young E-3's can learn and execute patrols so can you.

my .02 (2nd time mountain phase vet):lifter

NoRoadtrippin
02-25-2012, 22:58
Oh how I miss LDAC....my first big "Army trip" away from home. I tried real hard to get those doctors to send me home those first couple of days. I clearly didn't know what I was getting myself into. Can't overstate how glad I am none of them listened to me.

For a CDT, I'd say that definitely violence of action and leadership presence will go a long, long ways. There will be a dearth of this at LDAC and in many other STX lanes you will participate in over the next however many years.

I don't want to say much more without some sort of green light from the Mods since this was posted under the SF questions board.

LongWire
02-26-2012, 01:52
I can't stress the importance of SOP Development enough. If all of your guys don't know what to do in case of (insert action), then its not an SOP. Know them backwards, sideways and forward. Keep them simple, and know that they are METT-T/ situationaly dependent. The Australian peel can be an effective movement but it looks pretty stupid doing it out in the middle of the flat open desert. Knowing where/how the terrain effects your movement can pay dividends when it comes to speed/security. If you are going to lower one you better have a good reason to, and raise the other one. You can lower security, but you will never (intentionally) drop it.

If everyone in your patrol can't figure them (SOP's) out, then bring them up to speed or adjust it so they can. Weak links will be felt, and its usually the squared away ones that end up having to make up for it. Focus on the team, and you will remain a team. Individuals will find themselves divided, and we don't leave anybody behind.

When in charge, take charge. When not in charge......Pay Attention. Just because you aren't in a position doesn't mean that you can switch off and be clueless. Help your leaders out by being a good teammate. This will help you when its your turn. Fuck your buddy and see........Don't fuck your buddy!!!!!

Check your guys and check yourself constantly. Know where all your stuff is at and make sure it stays there. Count your guys and make sure that they are doing okay. Take breaks when you need to, but know that you have a destination and a timeline.

Know your limitations. Don't break your guys trying the impossible.

Know where you are, know the plan.....keep your guys informed/updated. Azimuth and pace count are your friends as well as terrain association.

Drink water!!!! Make your guys drink water.

The basics are just that....don't be foolish enough to think that you don't have to do them. When you progress, at times you will think that they are foolish, but they are there for a reason. Blow them off and you will kick yourself later. Conduct good PCI's. Know who has what, and where, make sure everyone else knows as well.

If you work hard enough during the development portion of your SOP's it will pay off at 0400 3 days into your movement, when no one really knows or cares what's going on, but you still have to get there.

ThinAir
04-15-2012, 20:07
Post...


LDAC? Seriously? I thought you went and figured it out on the fly- don't overthink it. And don't get lost.