Blunders of Statesmen

[craigepo]

This article appeared in National Review this morning. It is a summation of a book by President Herbert Hoover, only recently published. Hoover points to and explains alleged errors by both the United States and Britain up to and during World War II. According to Hoover, these errors led to the rise of communism around the world, poor results in WWII, and others.

I had never heard some of the facts put forth by Hoover. If true, these facts would change some arguments.

A forewarning---this is a long but interesting read.

http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/283064/blunders-statesmen-herbert-hoover?pg=1

[Badger52]

Thanks for that head-up. Good read; as with Nixon retrospect will hopefully treat Hoover differently.

And ANYTIME someone can hold up a mirror to show Emperor Delano's true clothes I'm pleased. He was a communist tool, taking mentorship from "Uncle Joe" (FDRs own term for him).

Edit: I do disagree with his (Hoover's) assessment essentially holding Truman responsible for using Little Boy & Fat Man ("the act of unparalleled brutality") when he maintains his prior tack of assigning a long list of ineptitudes to FDR which, arguably, put Truman into a corner by which the nuclear road was necessary and in this case, I believe, saved literally millions of lives. (moo). I've got post-strike photos from some of my Dad's B-29 missions after Lemay ordered them down to 8,000 ft for accuracy, loaded up with incendiaries. Hiroshima & Nagasaki were small change compared to the damage wrought by firebombing.

[BOfH]

I've got post-strike photos from some of my Dad's B-29 missions after Lemay ordered them down to 8,000 ft for accuracy, loaded up with incendiaries. Hiroshima & Nagasaki were small change compared to the damage wrought by firebombing.

Spot on, some pilots reported updrafts from the raging fires as high as a mile. The History Channel: The Last Days of WWII has some very good pictorial and video footage of the firebombing damage; If you have a Netflix subscription it should be accessible via their streaming service.

[craigepo]

I enjoyed some of what Hoover said. But, I'm not too sure about what Hoover's ideas might have been in regard to how we could have avoided war in Europe and still helped stop the Holocost.

[The Reaper]

Years ago i had the honor of talking to a guy that was a pow in japan during the war. He said the firestorms were undescribable and unlike anything he had seen since. He was a retired firefighter and fought many forest fires and said ne never seen anything comparable to japan after a fire bombing mission.

Well, napalm and thermite submunition sticks will do that to light frame wooden structures.

And we did the same thing to the Germans first.

TR

[Sigaba]

I had never heard some of the facts put forth by Hoover. If true, these facts would change some arguments.FWIW, historians have kicked around many of Hoover's arguments for decades.

MOO, the weakest part of Hoover's analysis when compared to historiographical debate is the notion that America's geopolitical and ideological interests would have been served best by allowing German and the Soviet Union to slug it out.

I also think that Hoover's analysis of America's relations with Japan greatly underestimates the impact of American public opinion on U.S. foreign policy, especially during the 1930s and 1940s.

But most of all, it appears to me that Hoover is sharpening his ax of bitterness against FDR. Roosevelt burned Hoover badly following the 1932 presidential election.

[Richard]

Years ago i had the honor of talking to a guy that was a pow in japan during the war. He said the firestorms were undescribable and unlike anything he had seen since. He was a retired firefighter and fought many forest fires and said ne never seen anything comparable to japan after a fire bombing mission.

And we did the same thing to the Germans first.

Kurt Vonnegut was an Infantryman in the 423rd Infantry Regiment, 106th Infantry Division in the Battle of the Bulge, captured, and held as a POW in a subterranean slaughterhouse meat locker in Dresden when the Allies bombed that city - his thoughts on experiencing such an event were expressed in Slaughterhouse Five's mantric "So it goes..."

I hope I never have the opportunity to give a first-hand account of such an event.

And so it goes...

Richard :munchin

[mark46th]

RE: Fire-bombing Tokyo.
You have to remember we were dealing with a country that had a modern manufacturing system in place, ruled by a Feudal mentality. Any attempt to negotiate would be viewed as weakness and a lack of will, encouraging the Japanese. MacArthur and LeMay, among others, understood that to defeat the Japanese, it was necessary to play by most of their rules. Unfortunately for the Japanese, that meant total destruction.

Japan learned one of the most important rules of war: Don't start a war with a country that build things faster than you can blow them up...

[The Reaper]

Japan learned one of the most important rules of war: Don't start a war with a country that build things faster than you can blow them up...

That was their lesson then.

Is it ours to learn from the Chinese now?

TR

[Badger52]

I also think that Hoover's analysis of America's relations with Japan greatly underestimates the impact of American public opinion on U.S. foreign policy, especially during the 1930s and 1940s. Please expound. I'm not sure I see the seamless nature of American public opinion between the 2 decades you describe, wherein the previously overwhelming sentiment of neutrality was catapulted to mobilization.

That FDR knew it would take an unparalleled industrial "event" of some kind to deflect from the continued actual failings of his socialist policies is well documented - including writings later by members of his own circle, as seen from deep within.

What is it about the state of American public opinion - of the time - that you think he underestimated?

[Sigaba]

Please expound. I'm not sure I see the seamless nature of American public opinion between the [two] decades you describe, wherein the previously overwhelming sentiment of neutrality was catapulted to mobilization.While America's views towards participating in a war did change, deep rooted animosity towards Japan remained high. IMO, this animosity would have made it difficult for FDR to pursue the diplomatic openings described in Hoover's polemic. Ultimately, a diplomatic solution to the tensions between the United States and Japan would have required concessions that Americans would have found hard, if not impossible, to swallow.
And ANYTIME someone can hold up a mirror to show Emperor Delano's true clothes I'm pleased. He was a communist tool, taking mentorship from "Uncle Joe" (FDRs own term for him).While I agree that Roosevelt's performance as a war leader left a lot to be desired, I think describing him as anyone's "tool" is a bit of a stretch. If such were the case in regards to FDR's relationship with Stalin, then why did the president support the invasion of North Africa when the Soviets were calling for a second front in Europe as soon as possible?

[Badger52]

While I agree that Roosevelt's performance as a war leader left a lot to be desired, I think describing him as anyone's "tool" is a bit of a stretch.Perhaps; gullible, naive kool-aid drinker might be more appropriate. Seen from the east, Stalin absolutely found him useful.

If such were the case in regards to FDR's relationship with Stalin, then why did the president support the invasion of North Africa when the Soviets were calling for a second front in Europe as soon as possible?I think that, besides the obvious strategic interest in denying further routes & access to the petroleum in the region, he also already had a closer and more mature allegiance to Churchill, whom he also worshiped.

MOO: FDR largely took his sense of what constituted resolve from others, regardless of whether they were truly courageous, or simply evil. He seemed incapable of differentiating that you need to buy one a drink, and may still need to take the other one out behind the alley and put one in his ear before he does the same to you.
:)

[Tree Potato]

Years ago i had the honor of talking to a guy that was a pow in japan during the war. He said the firestorms were undescribable and unlike anything he had seen since. He was a retired firefighter and fought many forest fires and said ne never seen anything comparable to japan after a fire bombing mission.

My Dutch grandparents were POWs (Opa in Tokyo, Oma on Java) and staunchly supported both the firebombings and the use of nukes. Opa said the hope brought by the sound of bombers a few months before the Tokyo firestorm kept many of his fellow prisoners alive. He and his fellow prisoners didn't worry about dying from the bombing raids, since that would be a relief from their conditions. Opa could barely speak of the horror of the fire, how hot it was, how it was hard to breathe, and how he and the other prisoners kept putting out fires in the compound with their own bodies as flaming debris kept raining down on them. Those attacks saved my grandparents, and my mother who was born in the Bandung POW camp outside Jakarta. Oma and Opa returned to Holland and were so appreciative they continually hosted parties outside Soesterberg AB for American GIs, and kept trying to get my mom to marry one. It worked, and in an odd way I'm a product of the Tokyo firebombing raid.

[Dusty]

That was their lesson then.

Is it ours to learn from the Chinese now?

TR

Oh, yeah. China's the zit you don't wanna look at in the mirror.