View Full Version : MEDEVAC Aircraft
The Reaper
10-31-2011, 20:50
A question was asked here which was never fully discussed due to peripheral matters.
I can't post the link on my tablet, but I read an article by Michael Yon today imploring the SecDef and POTUS to allow the Army to remove the red cross from their medevac choppers or allow them to carry machine guns. He states the Army is the only service that does this (the others use whatever happens to be in the area) citing the Geneva Convention. He also talked about the long process to launch said choppers and the effects it was having, ie the enemy knows about how long it takes to bring one in and waits for it with rpgs etc..., how the injured are missing the "golden minutes", etc
He also talks about how this is the brass' way of having more commands for chopper pilots, both medevac and apache because apaches are used for covering fire vs guns on the medevac. How this is money in the pockets for the company selling the choppers, spare parts,etc, all at the expense of the guys in the ground
Just wondering if any of you read it and how accurate it is?
afchic:
I am not sure that the markings really matter with a chopper. The enemy knows that it is not one of their aircraft, and are going to shoot at it regardless of whether it is marked or not, so I would leave the markings on it. I guess we could subdue them, if they really presented a problem.
OTOH, I do believe that the MEDEVAC birds should be armed for self-defense. We should not use them as gunships, but if someone opens up on a MEDEVAC bird, I have no issues whatsoever with them having crew members on flex mount weapons up to and including miniguns and M2 BMGs, lighting them up. You mess with the bull, you shoudl expect the horns. Shoot at an American helicopter, and expect fast and furious retribution from all sources to include the MEDEVAC chopper itself. I am pretty sure the Pedros are armed.
I really do not believe that there is some sort of vast military industrial complex conspiring to sell more repair parts or whatever just because the MEDEVAC birds are being shot at without shooting back.
There is a huge shortage of rotary wing lift in theater from all sources. Demand
greatly outstrips supply. People also fail to realize the size of Afghanistan and the wide dispersion of US units, MEDEVAC birds, and medical facilities. As we change the nature of our fight, there are a lot of forces in harm's way without a MEDEVAC capability within an hour of them. Forces get repositioned for a number of reasons, but people are also injured in unexpected areas.
IMHO, if someone is wounded badly enough to need immediate MEDEVAC, I would put them on the first thing that I could get them on, MEDEVAC or not. Understood that I might lose a medic accompanying the casualty for several days before he could get back. As an alternative, if available, the MEDEVAC bird would have a dedicated medic on board to care for the patient during the flight and I could keep my medic. Pick your poison. War is about hard decisions.
Just my .02, YMMV. I may be ignorant of a new or emerging policy. Hope others feel free to contribute.
TR
Paragrouper
10-31-2011, 21:30
He also talks about how this is the brass' way of having more commands for chopper pilots, both medevac and apache because apaches are used for covering fire vs guns on the medevac..
I'm not against MEDEVAC using guns for self-defense (maybe I just have a bias for guns:D). I do believe that a three ship approach makes more sense with respect to security. The use of two Apaches that are not worried about landing, handling a casualty and evacuating an area would provide far superior security than a single ship trying to perform an evacuation and provide it's own security.
A medic (or a cook) with a machine gun becomes a gunner.
A pilot with a seriously armed aircraft becomes a gunship pilot.
Medical treatment, while the the pilot avoids an exchange of gunfire is what the wounded need.
Harry Backmann
11-01-2011, 00:47
Hey Big T mahalo for the info!
I think the food fight over this was because the Pedros were armed and not wearing the Red Cross. Why not other MEDEVACs?
Short answer - since the original author had so little military experience - the Pedros are a CSAR asset. As was noted in the original thread it's apples and oranges. The Pedros do MEDEVAC after a lot of "if"s and to keep their skills sharp. MEDEVAC choppers do MEDEVAC because that is their primary job.
Just because jihadies use the Red Crescent to hide under and move troops and ammunition in ambulances doesn't mean we have to stoop to their level.
The US strains to stay above the Law of Land Warfare not stoop under it.
I concur with Pete - the moral highground regarding this topic is a well established precedent for the US, is important, and does have an influence.
I also agree with TR in that serious CASEVAC warrants the use of anything smoking - 60, 47, 22, 8 - armed or not.
MEDEVAC dedicated a/c are not just for CASEVAC - they are dedicated intra-theater transport for medical units.
PEDRO's operate more like the 'chase' birds we used to plan for in a 'package' for inserting/exfiling teams vs a dedicated MEDEVAC a/c.
MY is - IMO - an India-Delta-10-Tango.
Richard
The points of the article were that using armed helicopters would speed up evac time because they wouldn't have to wait for escort. Also it talked about the 9-line process and alledged that birds would not spin up without a complete 100% correct 9-line.
A lot of the food fight is over semantics and the letter of the Geneva Convention which prohibits attack of doctors, ambulances and so forth bearing the red cross/red crecent or otherwise marked as having to do with the international Red Cross. That is why I didn't use the term "MEDEVAC".
MGs and Red Cross can't go together if we want to play by the rules (even though we aren't fighting a nation that is a signatory...but thats another subject) It's really that simple.
There is nothing that says you can't put WIAs in a armed helicopter, just like nothing says you cant put doctors, nurses, red-cross volunteers or a load of nuns in with them... just that if that helicopter is armed it is now a legitimate target under the Geneva convention. Transporting wounded in this way has a specific term... CASEVAC.
The discussion should be about wether using armed helicopters and conducting CASEVACs (not arming "MEDEVACs" because that would be a no-no) would mitigate risk enough in commander's eyes to speed up medevac times, if in fact spin up and link up with the AH's are the long pole in the tent.
Eagle5US
11-01-2011, 05:46
His article is misinformed at best, misleading certainly.
As a former flight medic and current Flight Surgeon I can tell you that he has a poor and dramatic interpretation of the spin up process.
A helicopter cannot be put in the air and gotten en-route by the simple turn of a key. Even though "pre-flight" is done each morning, there are still run-up checks that have to be initiated. A flight plan (albeit abbreviated) must still be briefed and filed.
Ten minutes is not an unreasonable amount of time to get the crew "dressed" (flight gear on), location found on the map, flight plan filed, APU fired, engine start up procedures accomplished, run-up checks complete, and the bird in the air / en-route.
MEDEVAC can, and will, launch with as little as a 5 line, though 8 is the rule and 9 is certainly preferred. The concept of arming them for defense is not a bad idea (IMHO), but to then rely on those defensive weapons vs an armed escort is bad practice. As previously identified, while the MEDEVAC bird is on the ground - the gunship has oversight and flies protective cover.
If the LZ needs to be "prepped", much better to do so with rockets and 30mm cannons from gunships than a couple bungie guns. Add to that, should one of the crucial components of the crew (MEDIC) become injured or killed while engaging the enemy - the bird has now become a highly specialized CASEVAC platform without the expertise to utilize the equipment.
If I were a bad guy, and I had 2 gun ships shooting at me while 1 bird was on the ground NOT shooting at me; I think human nature would tend to draw my attention (and my OWN gunfire) back in the direction of the acft that was trying to kill me.
If we are going to arm them, do so as an addition - not a substitute.
mdpatterson
11-01-2011, 06:05
I have been thinking about a different scenario that relates to this topic for a while, but my attention quickly drifted to the M Yawn :boohoo meltdown.
Just to preface, I am in no way insinuating my situation is anything close to the those pilots who are doing the real work over there. As a pilot (With zero combat flying experience), I'm very interested in hearing all the views of those who have been there.
I was offered a job flying fixed wing for a company with a pretty good contract, but would be based in AF. I wouldn't be doing any sort of combat flying, but would be living on base and flying in not so friendly areas. The deal breaker for me was that they put everyone through weapons training, but don't allow any weapons to be carried while on mission.
Long story short, I would want (In my civilian and possibly selfish mind) as many weapons and trained individuals to fire them as possible, regardless what symbol was on my plane or what my mission was.
I already had a deep respect for all who put themselves in harms way to defend my freedom, but this thread has shown yet again the integrity of those/you men. I wish I could honestly say I would take the high ground and not lower myself to the tactics of the enemy, but I can't because I haven't been there.
Thanks again (To all who have served) for all you have done, are doing, and will do in the future. If I can ever be of help in any way (Even if it's just a bunch of cold beers), please don't hesitate to ask.
Mike
The issue of arming medevac birds is - in my opinion - a non issue and would only be applicable were we to be fighting an entity that observed the laws of war and actually gave privileged status to appropriately marked birds. Since the savages we are fighting merely use the red cross for an aiming point, it really doesn't matter. This isn't a zero-sum game; i.e., I don't see an issue with removing the red cross but yet keeping the escort package. I don't see ANY benefit to arming MARKED birds, I would simply remove the markings. But, that's me, I'm the same guy that doesn't actually want to reward the Muj for violating the laws of war as we currently do. They are NOT privileged belligerents and therefore are not to be given the full panoply of the protections of the various conventions/treaties we've signed for the amelioration of warfare on non-combatants. The ARMING of MARKED birds is a red-herring that doesn't really play out when exposed to the practicalities of every day life.
As far as a "proper" nine line, I know of no one who wouldn't launch on the scantest of information if it would save the life of an American. Kind of like calling for fire - there's a few things you MUST have, but get the request out and someone will come to help fill in the blanks.
I was offered a job flying fixed wing for a company with a pretty good contract, but would be based in AF. I wouldn't be doing any sort of combat flying, but would be living on base and flying in not so friendly areas. The deal breaker for me was that they put everyone through weapons training, but don't allow any weapons to be carried while on mission.
Long story short, I would want (In my civilian and possibly selfish mind) as many weapons and trained individuals to fire them as possible, regardless what symbol was on my plane or what my mission was.Mike,
The chances of you shooting out of a fixed-wing aircraft are; slim to none!
Stay safe.
mojaveman
11-01-2011, 11:28
Interesting subject.
I can remember hearing from the older NCOs that firing on MEDEVACs was a serious issue during the Vietnam conflict.
As I was later than most in taking the field (1970), I had had plenty of time to prepare for the two-way range. It was a given that medevacs were just another target regardless of the markings. When possible, Cobras escorted the medevacs. When not possible, the medevacs went anyway, knowing the hazards.
Those pilots had big brass ones, for which many of us were truly grateful.
chcknhawk
11-01-2011, 12:40
ISAF released the following statement in response to this piece. I posted it on my blog today:
http://militarygear.com/asp/2011/11/01/isaf-responds-to-irresponsible-agenda-driven-journalism/
Eagle5US
11-01-2011, 12:44
ISAF released the following statement in response to this piece. I posted it on my blog today:
http://militarygear.com/asp/2011/11/01/isaf-responds-to-irresponsible-agenda-driven-journalism/
chcknhawk-
Please follow the rules provided when you signed up for this site and post an introduction in the appropriate forum.
chcknhawk
11-01-2011, 12:49
Going there now. I tried yesterday, but couldn't post and just forgot today. Thanks for the reminder!
Eagle5US
11-01-2011, 12:54
C-Hawk- No sweat.
Regarding the photo to the linked article:
How long do you think before the SGMs at the Academy start making phone calls regarding his "Shocker" and other morale patches now prominently displayed on his gear :D
chcknhawk
11-01-2011, 13:01
C-Hawk- No sweat.
Regarding the photo to the linked article:
How long do you think before the SGMs at the Academy start making phone calls regarding his "Shocker" and other morale patches now prominently displayed on his gear :D
They probably won't say much. He died two and half weeks ago. He was also one of the best MEDEVAC crew chiefs I knew. But, on this topic, probably not long.
We recently had a poker tourney at FOB Spin Boldak MWR tent. After the tournament, the MWR homie sent out photos of the event. Instead of seeing it for what it is - Soldiers being able to unwind in a combat zone - the 1SGs and CSMs threw a conniption because Soldiers had earphones in while in PT uniform and eye protection perched on their heads! The horror!
......... - the 1SGs and CSMs threw a conniption because Soldiers had earphones in while in PT uniform and eye protection perched on their heads! The horror!
See, that's what you get when you fail to invite them...........(I'd have put it in pink but it's kinda' in between)
Condolences on your friend.
chcknhawk
11-01-2011, 13:17
Or they didn't win...
Eagle5US
11-01-2011, 13:44
They probably won't say much. He died two and half weeks ago.
Well that sucks...:(
Sorry for your loss...Article says he was a Flight Medic...I am assuming his middle name (or the name he went by) was Brian from your blog entry. Apologies for not making the correlation.
Age: 39
Sex: M
Hometown: Atwater, Ohio
Branch: Army
Unit: 3rd Battalion, 82nd Combat Aviation Brigade, 82nd Airborne Division, Fort Bragg, N.C.
Incident:
Oct 13th, 2011: Died in Kunar province, Afghanistan, from injuries suffered during combat operations.
Location: Kabul, Afghanistan
Thank you for your service SSG Cowdrey. Rest well.
chcknhawk
11-01-2011, 14:01
Sorry for your loss...Article says he was a Flight Medic...I am assuming his middle name (or the name he went by) was Brian from your blog entry. Apologies for not making the correlation.
Yeah, his first name is Robert, but he went by Brian to those that knew him. Once I have more time - probably when I return from Afghanistan - I'll be writing his story on my site, They Have Names. Thanks for your thoughts. Brian was just buried this past Saturday, so please keep his family in your thoughts if you would.
mdpatterson
11-01-2011, 16:04
Mike,
The chances of you shooting out of a fixed-wing aircraft are; slim to none!
Stay safe.
No intentions of shooting out of a Dash-8 fixed wing, but would be nice to have some weapons for the waiting around on the ground part ;).
No intentions of shooting out of a Dash-8 fixed wing, but would be nice to have some weapons for the waiting around on the ground part ;).If you're flying around in a Dash-8 fixed wing:
1. You ain't carrying no LEMFs (Lower Echelon MFers) you'll be carrying HEMFs (Higher Echelon MFers).
2. HEMFs ain't landing in no AO (air-field) where guns are needed on an airfield and IF, they are needed guess what?????:eek:
Stay safe.
Sometimes when we had MEDEVACS we had a lot WIAs, gunships where needed doing what they do best (If we could get them) and MEDEVAC choppers doing what they do best. I can see a door gunner, much anything else would be extra personal and weight meaning less room for the wounded.
As far as makings go, to the enemy, anything not theirs is a target.
As it was already said by Pete;
The US strains to stay above the Law of Land Warfare not stoop under it.
I am out of the loop now, so I am for what works best for the guy on the ground.
chcknhawk, my condolences on the lost of your friend. May he Rest In Peace.
Yeah, his first name is Robert, but he went by Brian to those that knew him. Once I have more time - probably when I return from Afghanistan - I'll be writing his story on my site, They Have Names. Thanks for your thoughts. Brian was just buried this past Saturday, so please keep his family in your thoughts if you would.
He was not forgotten here Colorado (http://www.peterson.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123277947). The local media had several articles about his service and several pictures of him in action saving Americans and Afghans.
I'm sorry for your loss MSG.
Thanks for restarting the thread TR. One of my best friends from college flys CSAR and I know alot of the shit he goes through on his missions. I just wanted to see your thoughts on the MEDEVAC. I appreciate it.
ODA CDR (RET)
11-02-2011, 17:26
I think the food fight over this was because the Pedros were armed and not wearing the Red Cross. Why not other MEDEVACs?
Short answer - since the original author had so little military experience - the Pedros are a CSAR asset. As was noted in the original thread it's apples and oranges. The Pedros do MEDEVAC after a lot of "if"s and to keep their skills sharp. MEDEVAC choppers do MEDEVAC because that is their primary job.
Just because jihadies use the Red Crescent to hide under and move troops and ammunition in ambulances doesn't mean we have to stoop to their level.
The US strains to stay above the Law of Land Warfare not stoop under it.
When did we become holier than thou. I don't mind stooping to any level. At what point does the term unconventional come in. This argument has me confused. Lets say we have orders to kill or capture whoever. That whoever answers the door, so he gets a double tap. I'm OK because the order. What no due process. Don't get me wrong, I prefer a dead Taliban/AQ, but not arming medevacs because we don't want to stoop, sorry I don't agree.
..... This argument has me confused. Lets say we have orders to kill or capture whoever. That whoever answers the door, so he gets a double tap. I'm OK because the order. ..............
Are you wearing a Red Cross Arm Band while doing the double tap?
When did we become holier than thou.
When did we not? :confused:
The original terminology used in doctrine for MEDEVACs was 'Air Ambulance' - a distinct difference from 'Assault', 'Transport', and 'Attack' helicopter units when considering both their use and our commitment to the spirit of the Laws of Land Warfare.
And so it goes...
Richard :munchin
ODA CDR (RET)
11-02-2011, 18:08
I wear (wore) US ARMY and Name Tape. Does it matter if I was dragging a buddy to safety or someone flying him out. Someone shoots, we should shoot back, or at least have the ability to. You guys can have the last words.
You guys can have the last words.
OK - maybe you can now have a greater appreciation for the strong feelings of gratitude and awe my generation holds for those pilots, crew chiefs, and medics who voluntarily flew/fly under the call sign of "Dustoff"...
Richard :munchin
DinDinA-2
11-02-2011, 18:49
Amen.
mdpatterson
11-03-2011, 02:38
If you're flying around in a Dash-8 fixed wing:
1. You ain't carrying no LEMFs (Lower Echelon MFers) you'll be carrying HEMFs (Higher Echelon MFers).
2. HEMFs ain't landing in no AO (air-field) where guns are needed on an airfield and IF, they are needed guess what?????:eek:
Stay safe.
Maybe I can talk one of the HEMFs to get me clearance to carry my weapon.....I don't want to get separation anxiety ;).
Maybe I can talk one of the HEMFs to get me clearance to carry my weapon.....I don't want to get separation anxiety ;).I know that feeling and came up with a remedy....
Why are you carrying ammo with no weapon?
Me: Just in case...
In case of what?
Me: In case I need it...
But you have no weapon!
Me: Have you noticed that all my mags fits into the weapons you guys are carrying?;)
Stay safe.
Eagle5US
11-03-2011, 04:11
I know that feeling and came up with a remedy....
Why are you carrying ammo with no weapon?
Me: Just in case...
In case of what?
Me: In case I need it...
But you have no weapon!
Me: Have you noticed that all my mags fits into the weapons you guys are carrying?;)
Stay safe.
LMAO!!!!:D
I know that feeling and came up with a remedy....
Why are you carrying ammo with no weapon?
Me: Just in case...
In case of what?
Me: In case I need it...
But you have no weapon!
Me: Have you noticed that all my mags fits into the weapons you guys are carrying?;)
Stay safe.
Reminds me of a scene in We Were Soldiers" [Totally paraphrasing here] when someone asked the SGM, "Where's your rifle?" and he responds with, "If it gets to the point where I need one...there will be plenty lying around."
mdpatterson
11-03-2011, 23:04
I know that feeling and came up with a remedy....
Why are you carrying ammo with no weapon?
Me: Just in case...
In case of what?
Me: In case I need it...
But you have no weapon!
Me: Have you noticed that all my mags fits into the weapons you guys are carrying?;)
Stay safe.
Good stuff :D