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Foggy Bottom
09-17-2011, 13:35
How is it determined whether or not a current (or prospective) Special Forces qualified soldier attends Ranger school? I understand that many, for example officers coming from combat arms branches, will be Ranger qualified prior to even being considered for Special Forces; or soldiers coming out of Ranger Battalion. If someone's intent is to join Special Forces, how is a decision made to send someone to Ranger school?

My specific situation is that I intend on attending a combat arms branch BOLC in the near future through ARNG. From now until meeting the TIS/rank requirements to attend SFAS, should I actively be seeking a spot in Ranger school or would 19th/20th Group send me prior to SFAS/SFQC? Or do individuals typically self-select on whether or not they wish to attend for their own professional development?

Eagle5US
09-17-2011, 13:42
Based on your post, I think you have a number of misconceptions.

How is it determined that someone goes to Ranger School?
1. They are in a unit that has Ranger School slots
2. They are in a job that supports them going to Ranger School
3. They VOLUNTEER to be placed on the Order of Merit List (OML) to go to the school
4. They pass whatever "pre-Ranger / RIP / ROP / RASP" acronym dejour that shows they have the motivation to not go and waste a school slot that someone else would be successful at.

Ranger School is an Infantry Leader's Course. Plain and simple.

Foggy Bottom
09-17-2011, 13:54
Based on your post, I think you have a number of misconceptions.

Ranger School is an Infantry Leader's Course. Plain and simple.

I believe the misconception you detected on my part is directly related to the reason for my question. Thank you for taking the time to answer.

Eagle5US
09-17-2011, 13:57
No Worries...

It was a statement, not a ding.

Glad to help.

abc_123
09-17-2011, 14:15
FB,

19th or 20th will not send you to Ranger School prior to SFAS. They won't send you before the SFQC either. If you have enough time to go to Ranger School, then you need to be spending that time getting 18series qualified so that you can be of some use versus being a pit that just soaks up training $$ and a spot. Think about it.


AFTER you pass SFAS, you could make your desire to attend ranger school AFTER the SFQC known and maybe things will line up for you.

If going to Ranger school is a primary goal of yours then try and work it thru the unit you are in... before getting into the SF pipeline.

Foggy Bottom
09-17-2011, 15:14
If you have enough time to go to Ranger School, then you need to be spending that time getting 18series qualified so that you can be of some use versus being a pit that just soaks up training $$ and a spot.

^^^This specifically clears up what was on my mind...

While reading through various materials, I noticed a number of things that drew my attention to the possibility of attending Ranger school. For example, in LTC Martin's book, "Get Selected for Special Forces" it incorporated memorization of the Ranger Creed as part of its preparation. Additionally, in a 20th Group Flier, it specifically says this as a requirement for Officers:

"- Ranger qualified or be willing to go to Ranger school"

It seems my suspicions were unfounded. Thanks again for taking the time. I'm going to go do PT now.

greenberetTFS
09-17-2011, 16:38
When I was in the service in the mid '50's,all Infantry 2nd Lt.'s had to be either Airborne or Ranger qualified.........;)

Big Teddy :munchin

JRV3
09-17-2011, 18:32
Ranger School definitely helped me in SFAS and the Q. So if you can swing it while you're killing time before you are eligible for selection, go for it.

In my case, 19th Group sent me after IOBC since I was already at Benning, but it just depends on the policy of your unit. If it were up to me, I would send all selected Officers to Ranger School before the Q.

LongWire
09-17-2011, 19:29
If you are an Officer in Combat Arms and Do Not have a Ranger Tab, then you should be seeking every venue and opportunity to attend.

As a brand new 18A on an ODA how are you going to lead combat proven NCO's who have all been to Ranger School? You need to bring everything that you can to the table in order to prove to everyone that you deserve to be in that position.

FYI, there is a certain CPT in my AO that decided not to take a day 1 recycle at Ranger school because he was assigned to go to our forward Bn. When the GRP COC caught wind of his refusal do you actually think that he got to go to the Forward Bn, or do you think he ended up as the Grp-3 shop bitch boy?

Go to Ranger School as soon as you can and be successful.

Surrender is not a Ranger word.............

stfesta
09-17-2011, 19:46
Joe,
You always give the best advice. I hope I will never need it but, glad it will be there.

Stay safe,
sf

wet dog
09-17-2011, 19:50
I can not think of a better way to spend aprox 76 days in un-interrupted training.:munchin

Foggy Bottom
09-17-2011, 20:49
Go to Ranger School as soon as you can and be successful.

Roger.

For some reason, the means with which you delivered your message made the hairs on my neck stand up.

Peregrino
09-17-2011, 21:30
All right. IF you are an officer AND if you pass the SFQC AND you are not already Ranger qualified, THEN you will be given an opportunity to attend Ranger School. We (USASFC(A)) will pay for it, SWCS (4th Bn) will put you on orders and send you in the gap between SFQC graduation and reporting to your first unit. There is a bit of controversy about this but the respective CGs and their G3s support the program so I don't expect it to change while we can still figure out how to scrounge funds for it. Fair warning - it's a one shot "with your shield or on it" course, especially for officers. NG officers will require a bit more effort (mostly earlier planning) but it's possible for them too. Bottom line - worry about passing the SFQC FIRST. That 25M target we're always talking about here.

abc_123
09-18-2011, 09:48
Perigrino-

How will USASFC(A) pay for NG officers? I think if you dig into that a little more you'll find that that is not the case. USASFC(A) does not have NG P&A funds.

Peregrino
09-18-2011, 10:28
Perigrino-

How will USASFC(A) pay for NG officers? I think if you dig into that a little more you'll find that that is not the case. USASFC(A) does not have NG P&A funds.

You're absolutely right; we don't. That's why NG officers need to identify themselves early (do I stay or do I go???? :confused:). We've been finding P&A (our NG guys at the HQ are kick ass) for schools and activations. NTM - the NG SFG(A)s do a good job of redistributing assets/begging for more IF they get sufficient lead time. Yes - it is difficult; NO - it is not impossible. I'll check with the 4-1st SWTG Cdr or his 3 and get the skinny - I'm pretty sure they've already dealt with this.

MtnGoat
09-18-2011, 11:51
How is it determined whether or not a current (or prospective) Special Forces qualified soldier attends Ranger school? I understand that many, for example officers coming from combat arms branches, will be Ranger qualified prior to even being considered for Special Forces; or soldiers coming out of Ranger Battalion. If someone's intent is to join Special Forces, how is a decision made to send someone to Ranger school?

My specific situation is that I intend on attending a combat arms branch BOLC in the near future through ARNG. From now until meeting the TIS/rank requirements to attend SFAS, should I actively be seeking a spot in Ranger school or would 19th/20th Group send me prior to SFAS/SFQC? Or do individuals typically self-select on whether or not they wish to attend for their own professional development?

FB - Your on a firing range right now.. engage your 25 and 50 meter targets. Let the ones out at 250m and 300m move towards you and get them late.

If your think of going SF, pick that target first. If it is Ranger School, pick it. Focus!!

You have all your answer here. So engage your targets!!

Just my .02

Foggy Bottom
09-18-2011, 13:11
The answers provided far exceeded what I was hoping for and in less than 24 hours. Thanks to all, I hope to return the favor by putting the information to good use.

My actual 25m target is Engineering BOLC, successful PL time (50m), then Selection (100m). I'm not sure I can realistically create any plan that extends past that.

Going to Ranger school is a bridge I'll cross when the time is more appropriate. While I anticipate it would be invaluable training and perhaps a life-changing experience, it potentially creates some obstacles in terms of timing and possible injury. I think it all depends upon circumstances between the Army and civilian employment.

Thank you again for taking the time.

MVP
09-20-2011, 10:06
IMHO I do not belive it makes a hill of beans for an officer to go to Ranger school. Best TL i ever had was ranger qual'd but spent 3 years in a Bn before coming to an A-Tm. Worst I had was also a ranger school grad...

BLUF: Ranger school does make a new TM Ldr less of the newbie (MHO of course!) and does not guarantee any level of maturity. Perhaps a version of PLDC for SF officer candidates would be of more benefit.

:munchin

MVP

1stindoor
09-20-2011, 10:34
BLUF: Ranger school does make a new TM Ldr less of the newbie (MHO of course!) and does not guarantee any level of maturity. Perhaps a version of PLDC for SF officer candidates would be of more benefit.

:munchin

MVP

Just to keep you up to date...Primary Leadership Development Course no longer exists...it's now the Warrior Leaders Course (WLC).

MVP
09-20-2011, 10:36
Thanks, I'm stuck in the Coke days before the Pepsi generation...

MVP

Powder
08-29-2013, 23:19
This one looks like it's been dead for a while but I want to confirm some RUMINT flying around amongst the men who've done it already.

One of the Lt's in my unit claimed that he had several NCO's in his Ranger class whom had just graduated Q Course but had not reached group yet. Has anyone ever heard of this happening as a recent SOP?

The Lt went through Ranger post 2011 and knowing how quickly things can change it seems like a reasonable course of action that NCO's are going through Ranger prior to getting to group.

Peregrino
08-30-2013, 08:07
It happens. We pushed for this two years ago. Given budget reductions (schools cost money) and unit desires to get their people as quickly as possible after graduation, future opportunities will be limited. We tried to get at least the 18As sent but that's proving difficult too.

craigepo
08-30-2013, 09:37
When I went through Ranger school (class 9-90)(roster number 119, pfc, 2/75, 180 pounds of ass-stompin' madness), we had an 18C from 1st group go through. The RI's terrorized that guy "Special fuckin' feces, get over here". The guy did a great job, but sometimes he really wanted to crawl into a hole.

mark46th
08-30-2013, 09:37
As a FOG, I am unsure what the importance of Ranger Scool has become. If it is that important, why don't they extend Phase I to nine weeks?

hotshot
08-30-2013, 11:04
This one looks like it's been dead for a while but I want to confirm some RUMINT flying around amongst the men who've done it already.

One of the Lt's in my unit claimed that he had several NCO's in his Ranger class whom had just graduated Q Course but had not reached group yet. Has anyone ever heard of this happening as a recent SOP?

The Lt went through Ranger post 2011 and knowing how quickly things can change it seems like a reasonable course of action that NCO's are going through Ranger prior to getting to group.

It is not a reasonable course of action to send a newly minted SF Soldier to Ranger school, as he already has received the training necessary to be a successful member of an ODA. Remember, Ranger Qualification doesn't always equal success in the SFQC and that works both ways.

As previously mentioned, these "initiatives" change with the winds and will continue to do so. I recently sent several CPT's to Ranger School following graduation, most of them earned the leadership awards while there; as they should.

Lastly, Ranger school is probably the easiest school to obtain a hard slot for in SF due to the current optempo. Rarely do SF guys want to go walk around in the woods for 3 months when they are only home 10 months out of the year.

CH

Basenshukai
08-30-2013, 11:49
IMHO I do not belive it makes a hill of beans for an officer to go to Ranger school. Best TL i ever had was ranger qual'd but spent 3 years in a Bn before coming to an A-Tm. Worst I had was also a ranger school grad...

BLUF: Ranger school does make a new TM Ldr less of the newbie (MHO of course!) and does not guarantee any level of maturity. Perhaps a version of PLDC for SF officer candidates would be of more benefit.

:munchin

MVP

You have completely missed the point of the Ranger Course experience and its potential significance to an officer's professional formation. It is not to make him "less cherry", making appear to be more of a man, or to give him instant respect. Those may be additional and incidental to the successful completion of that training. But, if that's all you - or the officer sees - the message with regards to the purpose of that course has been lost.

UWOA
08-30-2013, 12:32
I'm an FOG, too. So I guess posting to a two-year-old query helps me go back in time, yet provides a window forward to those who come across this during their search for information along this line ....

Besides all the cogent information provided above, you will find the biggest stumbling block to attending Ranger School is funds availability. I say that having been the S-3 for a Ranger company (LRRP) in the Indiana National Guard. Even though our mission demanded Ranger qualified soldiers, we still had difficulty getting slots/funds. Even though decades have passed the situation probably remains nearly the same -- you will be competing with huge numbers of active duty folks as well as graduating West Point classes. When I attended, I was assigned to 10th SFG (A). My ranger buddy in the Florida phase was one of two NG soldiers in the class ... two out of probably 350 (counting recycles) in that training cycle -- not a lot -- even though we also had Marines, Canadians, Thais, and SEALs in the class. My ranger buddy was from 19th Group, if that tells you something.

Bottom line, complete SFQC first; you'll have a better chance of going to Ranger school then ... and be better prepared to successfully complete the course -- that's if you have what it takes to complete SFQC.

As has been said here in other posts -- they're two completely different "animals".

.

sinjefe
08-30-2013, 12:35
You have completely missed the point of the Ranger Course experience and its potential significance to an officer's professional formation. It is not to make him "less cherry", making appear to be more of a man, or to give him instant respect. Those may be additional and incidental to the successful completion of that training. But, if that's all you - or the officer sees - the message with regards to the purpose of that course has been lost.

You do realize he wrote that 2 years ago, right?

Basenshukai
08-30-2013, 15:26
You do realize he wrote that 2 years ago, right?

Even if it was written ten years ago, it does not change the validity of the answer. How many times do we tell new members of this forum to use the "search" button to find answers to questions that have been posted in the past? If there is a "statute of limitations" to our threads, let's start deleting the old ones.

sinjefe
08-30-2013, 17:36
MVP, the guy you quoted, has been around for awhile and is a QP.

Peregrino
08-30-2013, 19:33
You have completely missed the point of the Ranger Course experience and its potential significance to an officer's professional formation. It is not to make him "less cherry", making appear to be more of a man, or to give him instant respect. Those may be additional and incidental to the successful completion of that training. But, if that's all you - or the officer sees - the message with regards to the purpose of that course has been lost.

Concur. That's why we've tried to enable attendance for non-Ranger Q'd SF Officers. It really is one of the better small unit leadership training experiences available in today's Army. (It'll probably stay that way at least until they waive the "balls" requirements. :rolleyes:) Not all of our leaders start with an Infantry or even a Combat Arms background.

Basenshukai
08-31-2013, 18:44
MVP, the guy you quoted, has been around for awhile and is a QP.

This forum is replete with QPs that have been around for a while. That's why I joined it (it makes for useful discussion).

El Gallo
02-17-2014, 19:30
This is an old thread, but I thought I would add my 2 cents... Ranger School is excellent training for a PFC, young Specialist or butter bar, maybe a Buck Sergeant coming from a soft skill. Ranger School doesnt teach you anything any NCO worth his salt doesnt already know in the way of tactics. It teaches you about yourself. Any SF qualified person attending Ranger School is doing it for one reason and one reason only. It is for rapport building and mentoring. You can't tell that young admiring soldier looking up at the sun glinting off your unit crest affixed to your green beret that HIS first step in advancement in the Combat Arms is to attend Ranger School if you don't have that vibrant Black and Gold beacon on your own shoulder. Let's face it. Some really great soldiers go to Selection... and fail. That doesn't mean they aren't outstanding Infantry/Armor/Air Defense. It just means they weren't meant to be one of the chosen few, or at least not quite yet. Get your short tab. Not because some Rangerette will look at you starry eyed in the bar and say "Are you a REAL Ranger?" but because a young soldier, looking up at you starry eyed thinks you are the epitome of the Combat Soldier and you need to point him down a path he can follow until he is prepared to do his own map reconnaissance and blaze his own trail for his career.

abc_123
02-18-2014, 03:39
Rapport building and mentoring had nothing to do with why I went after the SFQC... ...

WarriorDiplomat
04-19-2014, 22:01
Concur. That's why we've tried to enable attendance for non-Ranger Q'd SF Officers. It really is one of the better small unit leadership training experiences available in today's Army. (It'll probably stay that way at least until they waive the "balls" requirements. :rolleyes:) Not all of our leaders start with an Infantry or even a Combat Arms background.

Thats the key, understanding the intent of the school and the end user these days means O's with no ground combat or tactical experience. Way back the schools intent was too harden inexperienced infantry leaders in lieu of war in a simulated combat environment under conditions non combat MOS's ever experience. Cold, Wet and Hungry. The school is not about teaching or learning it is about the tab that says you have the commitment to suck up hardship and lead or follow when needed. Pre-Ranger and unit prep are the learning phase.
If a soldier comes from a tactical background like Infantry and has alot of experience as a tactically and technically proficient soldier he doesn't need the school. Old Sarge or young Sarge that knows how to lead and can get performance out of his soldiers ven when they don't want to do anything does not need the training experience. If the soldier struggles at leadership and is passive he needs the school to toughen him up. SUT these days is about teaching and learning tactics and Cadre set the teaching methodology example. Don't be mislead you will be carrying 100 lbs + and patrolling and doing the exact same tactics but sucking isn't our intent it comes with the territory.
Thought I would jump on to your response because you nailed the purpose of the school right on. So many don't understand how many Ranger Q'd come to SUT and struggle this includes former Sapper and Ranger Instructors alike. We are looking for the proficiency of the tactical and technical skills and thinking under pressure we want the smart Ranger not the strong one.