View Full Version : College Scam
I agree with some of the things in this video, particularly that there are too many colleges out there producing students with great loans and no jobs and this is further made worse by the current economy. I am interested in other people's opinions on this issue. I think one possible solution is to eliminate the amount of colleges that exist in the US and make them extremely selective so that people going to 3rd tier or 4th tier colleges don't take out loans for schools that will put them further into debt and without a job. Unfortunately, colleges are more of a business now and I don't see it stopping. It's kind of the same thing with law schools, there are too many and too few lawyers are needed in this economy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpZtX32sKVE&feature=pyv&ad=6739540474&kw=university
I am interested in other people's opinions on this issue. The topic has received a great deal of conversation previously.
For example, http://professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20111
HTH.
I'm more concerned about the economical aspect covered in the video as it relates to college bound students. While the discussion you linked focuses more on the standards of teaching and the indoctrination portion.
Incredible. A bombastic propagandist video that supports the NIA's broader strategy of undermining America's confidence in the U.S. political, economic, and social institutions. All accompanied by a "suggestion" to buy gold. ;)
Sigaba,
Yes I heard those plugs but ignored them. The cost of colleges and the constant dictum to take out loans is true though.Most students will not be able to pay off their loans after they graduate. Too many graduates out there with worthless Bachelor degrees and not enough demand.
Free market educational system - choose your post-high school education with care and what you can reasonably afford - personal choice.
And so it goes...
Richard :munchin
Caveat emptor - buyer beware - like most everything in life.
Free market educational system - choose your post-high school education with care and what you can reasonably afford - personal choice.
And so it goes...
Richard :munchin
I think we need to also need reinforce that college is not for everyone. I don't think people should go to university just to go for the hell of it. In high school ( 1999-2003 era), going to college was a must in order to be successful, at least that's what the faculty stressed at the time and the way I thought as well. Not going was not even discussed. Now I don't really think the same way.
Richard is spot on.
My big gift to the kids was a paid for education. They did and will graduate with no debt upon graduation. They will have a clean slate to dirty up on their own.
I think we need to also need reinforce that college is not for everyone. I don't think people should go to university just to go for the hell of it. In high school ( 1999-2003 era), going to college was a must in order to be successful, at least that's what the faculty stressed at the time and the way I thought as well. Not going was not even discussed. Now I don't really think the same way.
I was a high school principal during that time period and that may be what you heard - our focus with our students was on individual student aptitude, talents, and desires - college was an option for some but not for all - trade schools and corporate-sponsored on-the-job-training programs were equally as viable for many of our students and we helped guide them in that direction - America only offers opportunity and it is best realized when one is honest with themself in their self-appraisal and in developing 'realistic' goals.
And so it goes in the 'real' world...
Richard :munchin
I worked few construction sites in CA where plumbers, electricians, HVAC, etc. were making $40/hr. A couple of times we'd hit 16hr days....
8hrs x $40= $320
4hrs x $60= $240 (time and half)
4hrs x $80= $320 (double time)
Total= $880/day and/or $6,160/week and/or $24,640/month
Stay safe.
What will be the out come?
In the short term, we'll have tens of thousands of people out of work. In the midterm, we'll have more Americans with vocational training to do jobs that went overseas decades ago. In the long term, we'll have a smaller cohort of highly educated Americans, thereby causing the further decline in the country's already diminished intellectual resources and rendering us even less capable at competing in the international marketplace of ideas.
Yep, sounds like a winning plan to me.:rolleyes:
What will be the out come?
In the short term, we'll have tens of thousands of people out of work. In the midterm, we'll have more Americans with vocational training to do jobs that went overseas decades ago. In the long term, we'll have a smaller cohort of highly educated Americans, thereby causing the further decline in the country's already diminished intellectual resources and rendering us even less capable at competing in the international marketplace of ideas.
Yep, sounds like a winning plan to me.:rolleyes:
Quality over quantity. Not every university is going to produce the movers and shakers in sciences/engineering. Why tell people you must go to university to be educated when those same people don't have the desire anyways. It only forces more people into needless debt.
Now I don't really think the same way.
Is reshaping the external world really the most efficacious way to address the regrets you've formed about the choices you did and did not make? A little autoplasticity goes a long way.
What will be the out come?
In the short term, we'll have tens of thousands of people out of work. In the midterm, we'll have more Americans with vocational training to do jobs that went overseas decades ago. In the long term, we'll have a smaller cohort of highly educated Americans, thereby causing the further decline in the country's already diminished intellectual resources and rendering us even less capable at competing in the international marketplace of ideas.
Yep, sounds like a winning plan to me.:rolleyes:
To which opinion/post are you referring? :confused:
Richard
Is reshaping the external world really the most efficacious way to address the regrets you've formed about the choices you did and did not make? A little autoplasticity goes a long way.
I am not talking about my choices, but I have peers that are in the unemployed boat who decided to get further education. I was lucky to find a job in this economy.
What will be the out come?
In the short term, we'll have tens of thousands of people out of work. In the midterm, we'll have more Americans with vocational training to do jobs that went overseas decades ago. In the long term, we'll have a smaller cohort of highly educated Americans, thereby causing the further decline in the country's already diminished intellectual resources and rendering us even less capable at competing in the international marketplace of ideas.
Yep, sounds like a winning plan to me.:rolleyes:Huh?:confused::confused::confused:
Stay safe.
I am not talking about my choices, but I have peers that are in the unemployed boat who decided to get further education. I was lucky to find a job in this economy.
I hope you're charging them by the hour to listen to the fruits borne of their decisions. If not, I suggest you send them to the Chaplain...he gets paid to listen.
Richard :munchin
To which opinion/post are you referring? :confused:
Richard
The notion that we must revamp America's tertiary education system by shutting down schools based upon the premise that college is a 'scam.'
I hope you're charging them by the hour to listen to the fruits borne of their decisions. If not, I suggest you send them to the Chaplain...he gets paid to listen.
Richard :munchin
I mean they decided to pursue indutries that at the time were deemed a good place to specialize in but they can't predict the economy. We'll always need trade schools, but then again those are popping up everywhere.
Also, I think Sigaba is referring to my post where I offer a suggestion to eliminate a lot of colleges and instead have only few universities that are highly selective in order to decrease the amount of graduates we as a nation are churning out.
Ret10Echo
09-16-2011, 19:07
But...there are institutions out there that accept NO Federal funding...or loans, even Federal dollars direct to the student. It took a court victory to keep the Dept of Education out of their business.
Yawwwwnnnnnnnnnnnnn....
Richard :munchin
Free market educational system - choose your post-high school education with care and what you can reasonably afford - personal choice.
And so it goes...
Richard :munchin
100% agree with this. I originally got an art degree. That did not work out in the slightest. Now, 10 years later, I am back in school for something a lot more useful. I have no one to blame but myself.
Get rid of government backed college loans, and tuition would go into deflation mode quickly. But I digress, it all goes back to how money is created in the first place. It's a cancer that destroys everything it touches over a period of time-- most importantly, Nations.
You left off the cover sheet.
And so it goes...
Richard :munchin
Get rid of government backed college loans, and tuition would go into deflation mode quickly. But I digress, it all goes back to how money is created in the first place. It's a cancer that destroys everything it touches over a period of time-- most importantly, Nations.Tell me you were drinking, smoking weed, huffing, exhausted, high-as-kite, pissed-off, confused, tired, etc. when you wrote the above in yellow?:eek::confused::D:munchin
Stay safe.
greenberetTFS
09-17-2011, 16:20
Tell me you were drinking, smoking weed, huffing, exhausted, high-as-kite, pissed-off, confused, tired, etc. when you wrote the above in yellow?
Stay safe.
:D:D:D
Big Teddy :munchin
Get rid of government backed college loans, and tuition would go into deflation mode quickly. But I digress, it all goes back to how money is created in the first place. It's a cancer that destroys everything it touches over a period of time-- most importantly, Nations.Okay, so you oppose capitalism.
-The Gettysburg speech is poetry, not logic. Union fought against self-determination; Confederates fought for the right to govern themselves- H.L. Mencken And you oppose republicanism.
Now, the question is: What do you support?
GratefulCitizen
09-17-2011, 21:38
Why is the education system to blame for someone's economic outcome?
Education is just one of many routes by which people can improve their economic situation.
Nobody forces anyone to take out loans for any purpose or live beyond their means.
Whatever it is, if you can't afford it, don't buy it.
Sore losers never want to pay their bills.
But I digress, it all goes back to how money is created in the first place. It's a cancer that destroys everything it touches over a period of time-- most importantly, Nations.
Money isn't real.
Goods and services are real.
All the perplexities, confusion and distress in America arise, not from defects in their Constitution or Confederation, not from want of honor or virtue, so much as from the downright ignorance of the nature of coin, credit and circulation.
-John Adams
I skipped college altogether and went the professional certification (and experience) route, and I am currently (happily) employed, so I am a bit biased, but not without reason. I have several friends who came out of college in the same or similar field as myself, knowing next to nothing (and some of whom are still unemployed due to lack of real-world knowledge), so there may be something that can be said with regards to the teaching standards/quality of the respective colleges that they attended. On the other hand, my wife is a CPA, which requires a bachelors, and she had several good teachers in college which taught her quite a bit, much of which has helped in her current position. Colleges can go both ways, and maybe the system does need a bit of an overhaul, especially student loans, but to discount the entire system as a whole is wrong and shortsighted, it works (most of the time), and there are many career paths which require it. It boils down to:
a) degree choice is *almost* everything - the "I have a masters in liberal arts...would you like fries with that?" bumper sticker isn't without some truth.
b) college is not for everyone (case in point) and nor is it a career silver bullet, which leads me to:
c) just because you have a degree doesn't mean you automatically deserve a job or will get one straight away. IMHO, this is where most people and college marketing go wrong: College can/will give you the tools to better your economic situation, the tools you chose(i.e. degree) and how you apply them is up to you.
My .0002 YMMV
Try and get a management job in the fortune 500 without a college degree.
FWIW, every three years, The College Board, an advocacy group, publishes Education Pays, a study that quantifies the benefits of a college education.
The 2010 edition of this publication is available here (http://trends.collegeboard.org/education_pays).
HTH.
FedFarmer
09-18-2011, 17:51
I was a high school principal during that time period and that may be what you heard - our focus with our students was on individual student aptitude, talents, and desires - college was an option for some but not for all - trade schools and corporate-sponsored on-the-job-training programs were equally as viable for many of our students and we helped guide them in that direction - America only offers opportunity and it is best realized when one is honest with themself in their self-appraisal and in developing 'realistic' goals.
And so it goes in the 'real' world...
Richard :munchin
I wish more educators had a similarly realistic approach to education. While I'm not exactly sure where the disconnect begins, I strongly believe that young people today (my generation, particularly), suffer from a sense of entitlement which greatly diminishes their chances for success.
Interesting read here: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/opinions/columnists/inside-the-entitlement-generation/article2169409/
Wente: "The entitlement mindset didn’t come from nowhere. It came from us. It came from a generation of adults who believed that kids should never be allowed to fail, or told the truth about their abilities, or learn that getting what you want is sometimes hard. On top of that, we have the modern fallacy of higher education – much beloved of politicians, who believe the acquisition of a BA is a sort of alchemy that can transform intellectual dross into gold and ensure that everyone, no matter how inert, can succeed in the knowledge economy."
Ret10Echo
09-18-2011, 18:35
I was a high school principal during that time period and that may be what you heard - our focus with our students was on individual student aptitude, talents, and desires - college was an option for some but not for all - trade schools and corporate-sponsored on-the-job-training programs were equally as viable for many of our students and we helped guide them in that direction - America only offers opportunity and it is best realized when one is honest with themself in their self-appraisal and in developing 'realistic' goals.
And so it goes in the 'real' world...
Richard :munchin
Point taken, however experience here has been quite the opposite...or perhaps not what the target should be.
Neighbor's kid was having trouble in school (grades), managed to get into a vocational program at the school and was excelling in it. It was very visible, the turn-around. Actually WENT to school EVERY day, his "extracurricular" activities disappeared...and he looked forward to going to school.
That is, until the administration pulled him out...he wasn't doing "well enough" in his "college prep" courses to stay in the vocational program. :confused:
Result, another statistic. Dropout...wandered off somewhere.
Shame.
Try and get a management job in the fortune 500 without a college degree.
Which is why I am considering an online degree at the moment, just for the damn piece of paper. I've always wondered if it was discriminatory in the legal sense, that a piece of paper could still hold more value than the equivalent experience...
ZonieDiver
09-19-2011, 10:34
Which is why I am considering an online degree at the moment, just for the damn piece of paper. I've always wondered if it was discriminatory in the legal sense, that a piece of paper could still hold more value than the equivalent experience...
Learning Effect vs. Screening Effect
ZonieDiver
09-19-2011, 10:38
Point taken, however experience here has been quite the opposite...or perhaps not what the target should be.
Neighbor's kid was having trouble in school (grades), managed to get into a vocational program at the school and was excelling in it. It was very visible, the turn-around. Actually WENT to school EVERY day, his "extracurricular" activities disappeared...and he looked forward to going to school.
That is, until the administration pulled him out...he wasn't doing "well enough" in his "college prep" courses to stay in the vocational program. :confused:
Result, another statistic. Dropout...wandered off somewhere.
Shame.
Having spent the last ten years of my teaching career in the academic side of the Career-Technical Education field, let me assure you that this is not uncommon, unfortunately.
Schools are rated by state and federal agencies on things other than producing productive citizens. That said, in most instances, schools don't require honor roll performance in academics to stay in CTE. I'm not sure of the situation in your case. In my schools, if they could maintain a "C" average, they were usually good to go!
Ret10Echo
09-19-2011, 11:36
Which is why I am considering an online degree at the moment, just for the damn piece of paper. I've always wondered if it was discriminatory in the legal sense, that a piece of paper could still hold more value than the equivalent experience...
The piece of paper supports the experience. To go along with ZD's comment: Lacking a better external measure, an employer is left with the generally accepted measure of performance. For better or worse, that measure is a degree or certification from an accredited institution.
I have spent the years since my retirement (grudgingly) executing that very process.
The piece of paper supports the experience. To go along with ZD's comment: Lacking a better external measure, an employer is left with the genearlly accepted measure of performance. For better or worse, that measure is a degree or certification from an accredited institution.
I have spent the years since my retirement (grudgingly) executing that very process.
QPs ZD/Ret10Echo,
Thanks for your informative replies. Ret10Echo, I think you have hit the nail on the head, it may be bad, but there is nothing better, and the alternative worse at times. I'm sure I'll be heading down that path soon enough, and I have many, many years before retirement :D
I've always wondered if it was discriminatory in the legal sense, that a piece of paper could still hold more value than the equivalent experience...
Please tell me you are kidding.
I got way more out of my college then a piece of paper.
Please tell me you are kidding.
I got way more out of my college then a piece of paper.
I'm not. Everyone's experience is different, and if the purpose is to educate, I know quite a few souls that "just got a piece of paper" and nothing more, but this topic (standards/quality) has been discussed to death. As with many things in life, College is one that goes into the YMMV category.
Here's a more recent and growing part of the problems of higher education.
How Pricey For-Profit Colleges Target Vets' GI Bill Money
MotherJones, Sep/Oct 2011
Last winter, the Department of Veterans Affairs tasked its newly hired blogger, a cantankerous Iraq vet named Alex Horton, with investigating the website GIBill.com, one of many official-looking links that come up when you Google terms like "GI Bill schools." With names like ArmedForcesEDU.com and UseYourGIBill.us, these sites purport to inform military veterans how to best use their education benefits. In reality, Horton found, they're run by marketing firms hired by for-profit colleges to extol the virtues of high-priced online or evening courses. He concluded that GIBill.com "serves little purpose other than to funnel student veterans and convince them their options for education are limited to their advertisers."
(cont'd) http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/09/gi-bill-for-profit-colleges
More college students defaulting on federal loans in Texas, U.S.
DMN, 18 Sep 2011
The official default rate in Texas hit 10.1 percent last year, up from 9.1 percent the year before. The national average was 8.8 percent, up from 7 percent, the U.S. Department of Education reported last week.
A few years ago, Texas’ default rate was just below 6 percent.
<snip>
In Texas and nationally, default rates climbed at all types of colleges. But the highest default rates — 15 percent nationally and 16.4 percent in Texas — come from students of for-profit colleges.
Three Texas schools — Lincoln College of Technology in Grand Prairie and Trend Barber College and Sebring Career School in Houston — posted some of the worst rates in the country, with more than 35 percent of borrowers defaulting last year.
http://www.dallasnews.com/news/education/headlines/20110917-more-college-students-defaulting-on-federal-loans-in-texas-u.s..ece?action=reregister
And so it goes...
Richard :munchin
1stindoor
09-19-2011, 15:35
Here's a more recent and growing part of the problems of higher education.
How Pricey For-Profit Colleges Target Vets' GI Bill Money
MotherJones, Sep/Oct 2011
Good catch. That's part of the reason why I directed my Soldiers to the Ed Center and towards established colleges with a specific goal in mind.
I've recently earned my "piece of paper" in Accounting, and I'm back in school earning a higher "piece of paper."
Sure, it is literally a piece of paper. The piece of paper happens to be very important to some professions and even others where the degree seems irrelevant.
More importantly, college allows a student to harness the networking and career services of the university. Sometimes you just need to impress one or two people in key positions in order to land a decent job when you graduate. "It's not what you know, it's who you know." Internships might sound like a joke to the uninformed, where a student is just a copy and coffee boy/girl, but that's not true. As far as the business school goes at my university, students are given actual responsibilities, most often at major regional and multinational firms. Interning for $25/hour isn't so bad, especially when you go back home for break and see your high school friends working full-time for half of that.
Just saying that there CAN be far more valuable experience gained by spending time in school vs. going straight to work out of high school. To many employers, seeing a 3.8 GPA and extra curricular activities carries more weight than a part-time enrolled student with a 2.8 GPA and years of retail or other unskilled labor experience.
So that I don't sound arrogant, I'm one of the people who has years of part-time retail experience and few extra-curricular activities, but I've managed to stay full-time in school and will tough out one more year. Even if I'm x number of dollars in debt, my degrees will not depreciate and they will make me at least nominally qualified for many jobs. I just like having options.
I also understand that some majors may prove to be less profitable than others. But that is up to the prospective student to decide whether or not the degree is worth the time and money and opportunity cost associated with not being employed full-time for 4+ years.
Dan's .000002 cents.
GratefulCitizen
09-20-2011, 21:46
Part of the problem with the whole college issue is the deception that a higher salary leads to wealth.
Not necessarily.
Besides student debt, there are other things to consider:
What is the cost of living/commuting/ancillary costs where you have to work?
How much of your time is actually required?
Are you "owned" by a salary arrangement? (the proper term for salary is "overtime exempt")
Does the lack of spare time cause you to substitute money where you could spend time?
Does the workload have a negative effect on your health? (a big deferred cost)
Does the lack of spare time prevent you from working a second job?
Will your career pressure you to pursue an expensive lifestyle?
And the big one -- make more, get taxed more.
It doesn't matter how much you make.
What matters is how much you keep.
Not running at your financial redline allows you to buy things when they're cheap.
Being at a financial redline (perhaps caused by student debt and listed questions) causes you to miss opportunities, costing you yet more.
Because of taxation, money not spent is better than money earned.
All the focus is on income rather than expenses.
Income is not that same thing as accumulating capital.
Ret10Echo
09-21-2011, 04:33
It doesn't matter how much you make.
What matters is how much you keep.
Exactly...A LOT of people violated that rule with the housing market and economic boom...
What is the cost of living/commuting/ancillary costs where you have to work?
D.C. metro is a prime example. The grind wears on you and COL is just stupid.
Being at a financial redline (perhaps caused by student debt and listed questions) causes you to miss opportunities, costing you yet more.
Sad days now and the downturn will continue.
IMHO, there also appears to be a lack of desire to become educated in more than one way.
Confidence comes from having a Degree in "X" and a Degree in "Y" but equally as important is I can still frame a house, run a tractor or work a soldering iron if I need to.