View Full Version : Egypt’s Brotherhood declares war on the bikini
Egypt’s Brotherhood declares war on the bikini
http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=235687
"Freedom and Justice" party leader: "We must place regulations on tourists wishing to visit Egypt."..............."
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"............"The pharaonic culture is a rotten culture," A-Shahhat told the London-based Arabic daily A-Sharq Al-Awsat on Wednesday, saying the faces of ancient statues "should be covered with wax, since they are religiously forbidden." He likened the Egyptian relics to the idols which circled the walls of Mecca in pre-Islamic times................."
The true face of Islam folks.
mojaveman
08-28-2011, 11:13
While in Egypt back in the day we were allowed a few days off right before we left and got to stay in a nice hotel in Cairo. A handful of the women had brought bikinis and were wearing them at the slightly rowdy party we were having near the pool. The male Egyptian hotel workers were looking at the scantly clad American gals like they had never seen a female before. Some of the women later complained of getting their backsides touched by the workers.
I bet old Brother M. Saad spends some time down at the beaches counting the bikinis. How else would he know they're such a problem.
All they need is a majority folks and the true face if Islam comes out.
Peregrino
08-28-2011, 11:46
And we can't even dry a "line in the sand" to stop them. The tides of Western Liberalism keep erasing it, thereby inviting unceasing encroachment. I probably won't see Sharia in America; I wish I were as sure of that for my brother's children.
Must be why the Egyptians want Eilat - like Abu Dhabi and Dubai, they need a nice, modern, thriving beach resort where they can drink alcohol, gamble, and practice their hedonism away from the disapproving glaring of the local gawd squads. ;)
And so it goes...
Richard :munchin
WayoftheWolf
08-28-2011, 15:05
I was told this by one of my long time Arab girlfriends after I went on a tirade of the oppression on Arab women after one of my women studies classes. She told me that wearing the hijab and dressing modestly to her was not oppression. She believed that Western Women were more oppressed than their Arab sisters. I dont believe in such a judgement; but, believe one oppression is direct and the other is overt. She went to say that Western women were oppressed to look a certain way, augment their bodies to meet that image, wear certain clothes that made them sexual objects. She felt that men treated her with more respect for being modest compared to her american girlfriends. I find it interesting that we use the conversative values in Egypt that say women shouldn't wear bikinis to spread fear, while politicians have done the same thing in our country.
........... I find it interesting that we use the conversative values in Egypt that say women shouldn't wear bikinis to spread fear, while politicians have done the same thing in our country.
True but we don't generally have gangs of modesty police running around beating women who wear bikinis.
We don't even have gangs of fashion police running around beating up women in burkas.
And you should have beat her for talking to a male who was not family - oh, wait, this is America we don't do that.
Team Sergeant
08-28-2011, 15:41
THIS MEANS WAR!
I'm with you!!!!!!!
What's next the Hooters Girls!!!!!!!!!
WayoftheWolf
08-28-2011, 15:55
True but we don't generally have gangs of modesty police running around beating women who wear bikinis.
We don't even have gangs of fashion police running around beating up women in burkas.
And you should have beat her for talking to a male who was not family - oh, wait, this is America we don't do that.
So, it is your opinion that it is worse to be oppressed by physical means rather than by psychological means. I would argue that we do have fashion police running around. The societal pressure for women to fit a certain image that results in body augmentation, bulimia, anorexia. Even products solely for this oppression have been developed for diet food, diet pills, and a whole bunch of workout equipement. The way I look at it is that we tend to look at everthing as black or white; put techinically, a binary system. So, Arabs are one end of the continum where they do not want their female members of the family to talk to the other sex because they know what can happen to the point that they are very controlling. On the other end, we have Americans who have all the freedom in the world. We can talk to whom ever we want; but, then have many ramifications from that. Out of wedlock births, single parent mothers, abortions, promiscuity, stds, a highly sexualized culture,etc. I feel if we continue to make value judgements we will never move forward.
................... Out of wedlock births, single parent mothers, abortions, promiscuity, stds, a highly sexualized culture,etc. I feel if we continue to make value judgements we will never move forward.
I would say most of what you just listed was because we stopped making value judgements. Now anything goes.
So you're saying living under Sharia law would be good for everybody on earth?
Western women would be safer under a burka?
WayoftheWolf
08-28-2011, 16:18
I would say most of what you just listed was because we stopped making value judgements. Now anything goes.
So you're saying living under Sharia law would be good for everybody on earth?
Western women would be safer under a burka?
I would say we traded one set of value judgements for another. I am not saying at all that religious law is good for anybody. I do not believe in religion. And for cover, I believe anybody is allowed to wear whatever they want ; but, it is contigent on their reasons. The reasons must not be because of direct physical or overt psychological oppression. "If I want to understand somebody, I cannot condemn him, I must observe, study him. I must love the very thing I am studying. If you want to understand a child, you must love and not condemn him. You must play with him, watch his movements, his idiosyncrasies, his ways of behavior; but if you meerly condemn, resist or blame him, ther is no comprehension of the child." Krishnamurti 1954:42
Roguish Lawyer
08-28-2011, 16:38
I would say we traded one set of value judgements for another. I am not saying at all that religious law is good for anybody. I do not believe in religion. And for cover, I believe anybody is allowed to wear whatever they want ; but, it is contigent on their reasons. The reasons must not be because of direct physical or overt psychological oppression. "If I want to understand somebody, I cannot condemn him, I must observe, study him. I must love the very thing I am studying. If you want to understand a child, you must love and not condemn him. You must play with him, watch his movements, his idiosyncrasies, his ways of behavior; but if you meerly condemn, resist or blame him, ther is no comprehension of the child." Krishnamurti 1954:42
I'll bet you like Cannibals and Nazis too. Just different value systems, can't condemn them.
.... I believe anybody is allowed to wear whatever they want ; but, it is contigent on their reasons. The reasons must not be because of direct physical or overt psychological oppression.......
I'm trying to link your two thoughts from posts 11 and 13. I'm sorry but they just don't go together.
You say anyone should be allowed to wear anything they want with no direct or overt psychological oppression but you seem to agree that females in our society are under psychological oppression to dress the way they do and the solution would be to put them under the burka.
Hmmmmm.
As a member of the boob squad, I would like to add my opinion. First, to each his or her own. If you WANT to wear a hijab, wear one but not because your father/brother/uncle/Imam is going to beat you if you don't. If you WANT to wear 5 inch heels, a mini skirt and cleavage showing shirt, go for it.
I am glad I live in a country where I can choose to wear what I want when I want. I don't dress based on any religion or familial pressure. I also take offense to the notion that society has somehow "oppressed" me and psychologically convinced me to dress a certain way. Thank you for making all females sound like brainless idiots who cannot choose what to wear and when without being dictated to by the fashion police. Augmentation, anorexia and bulimia are personal choices. Stop sounding like a confused feminist.
I wear what I want when I want because I want to. Period. Thankfully, I live in a country that allows me the freedom to do so.
WayoftheWolf
08-28-2011, 19:53
I'm trying to link your two thoughts from posts 11 and 13. I'm sorry but they just don't go together.
You say anyone should be allowed to wear anything they want with no direct or overt psychological oppression but you seem to agree that females in our society are under psychological oppression to dress the way they do and the solution would be to put them under the burka.
Hmmmmm.
Not saying that at all. My point is that our house is not clean and it is presumptious for us to define what feminism is. To understand others we must understand how others view ourselves. The solution is niether. Betty Friedan in the frist wave of feminism wrote a book called, "The Feminine Mystique." The basis of the book was that white women were relegated to stay at home, raise the kids, cook, clean, etc. She proposed that women need to break these barriers and get into the workplace, force men to share in parenting, break social norms. The only problem with her premise was that it was not inclusive. Her she was defining feminism; but, whole groups of women could not relate. I do not remember the author; but, it was titled "Ask a Black Women." In it, they interviewed black women and asked them what they thought about Friedan's book. They all said I wish I could stay at home. I wish their father was here to pay the bills and not cook. Simply, they believed that this was not THEIR feminism. Back to the bikini......who are we to define what is feminism?
WayoftheWolf
08-28-2011, 20:06
As a member of the boob squad, I would like to add my opinion. First, to each his or her own. If you WANT to wear a hijab, wear one but not because your father/brother/uncle/Imam is going to beat you if you don't. If you WANT to wear 5 inch heels, a mini skirt and cleavage showing shirt, go for it.
I am glad I live in a country where I can choose to wear what I want when I want. I don't dress based on any religion or familial pressure. I also take offense to the notion that society has somehow "oppressed" me and psychologically convinced me to dress a certain way. Thank you for making all females sound like brainless idiots who cannot choose what to wear and when without being dictated to by the fashion police. Augmentation, anorexia and bulimia are personal choices. Stop sounding like a confused feminist.
I wear what I want when I want because I want to. Period. Thankfully, I live in a country that allows me the freedom to do so.
I dont think that I am the one who sounds like a confused feminist and would never personally attack someone. Let the strength of your arguement prove yourself; attacking someone may make you feel better but accomplishes very little. As for "brainless idiots" they do not include just women. The concept of feminism is contigent on a duality. We do not know black if we do not knwo white. We do not good without evil. We do not know feminine if we do not know masculine. Men who judge women based on their looks for afore mentioned reasons are "brainless idiots." If we believe in this dichotomy it is logical to assume that men are just as oppressed as women. Is the man who hides his feminine side, cries, is fat, bald, weak, etc just as oppressed? If there are gender stereotypes there will always be oppression for those that do not meet those stereotypes. Perhaps I am a confused feminist. And this btw has nothing to do with any form of patritism. This is not a zero sum game. My arguements were not to make America look worse and Egypt better or converse. We are a great country and am thankful that I live in a place where I can learn espouse such great ideas with other great people.
............. My arguements were not to make America look worse and Egypt better or converse. We are a great country and am thankful that I live in a place where I can learn espouse such great ideas with other great people.
Your arguments are from the school house. The old "their suicide bomber is OK because we did worse 400 years ago" gets old.
Now that it's the internet age Islam should be able to catch up with the rest of the world - but no, Islam is trying to drag the rest of the world back into the dark ages.
Which direction is Egypt now moving? Into a more enlightened direction? Or would you say regressing a bit? That's the point of the original story I linked.
Is Islam around the world becoming more tolerant of other religions or more intolerant?
Who has more rights? A Muslim in the west or a Christian in a Muslim country?
I dont think that I am the one who sounds like a confused feminist and would never personally attack someone. Let the strength of your arguement prove yourself; attacking someone may make you feel better but accomplishes very little. As for "brainless idiots" they do not include just women. The concept of feminism is contigent on a duality. We do not know black if we do not knwo white. We do not good without evil. We do not know feminine if we do not know masculine. Men who judge women based on their looks for afore mentioned reasons are "brainless idiots." If we believe in this dichotomy it is logical to assume that men are just as oppressed as women. Is the man who hides his feminine side, cries, is fat, bald, weak, etc just as oppressed? If there are gender stereotypes there will always be oppression for those that do not meet those stereotypes. Perhaps I am a confused feminist. And this btw has nothing to do with any form of patritism. This is not a zero sum game. My arguements were not to make America look worse and Egypt better or converse. We are a great country and am thankful that I live in a place where I can learn espouse such great ideas with other great people.
I didn't at all attack you. I stated an opinion. My opinion was and is that whether you intended to or not, your post certainly made it sound as if American women are oppressed by society in regard to clothing and apparently body image. My response was simply alluding that those are personal choices not societal demands. As an American woman (maybe I am exception but at least I can base my ideas of women off being a woman), I don't at all feel as if I am forced to dress a certain way.
If you took my referring to you sounding like a confused feminist as a personal attack, then that's your problem.
I might be completely off base and out of line here and I have no doubt someone will be along very shortly to correct me if I am but I for one am tired of reading your posts where you laud your education like it's absolute and unique. I congratulate you for getting an education and in the process deciding to study areas that are or were out of the norm for you but you are not the only person on this site who is educated.
Now that I am completely off topic, I am finished.
Peregrino
08-28-2011, 20:25
This is getting annoying. WotW - go sit quietly somewhere and meditate. Otherwise I'm about to introduce you to the consequences of annoying one of the Alphas.
The Reaper
08-28-2011, 20:28
Ah yes, Generation Why.:rolleyes:
TR
WayoftheWolf
08-28-2011, 20:42
Your arguments are from the school house. The old "their suicide bomber is OK because we did worse 400 years ago" gets old.
Now that it's the internet age Islam should be able to catch up with the rest of the world - but no, Islam is trying to drag the rest of the world back into the dark ages.
Which direction is Egypt now moving? Into a more enlightened direction? Or would you say regressing a bit? That's the point of the original story I linked.
Is Islam around the world becoming more tolerant of other religions or more intolerant?
Who has more rights? A Muslim in the west or a Christian in a Muslim country?
I think you missed my point. Historical relativism "400 years ago or 2 minutes ago" as a means of a moral measurement "their suicide bomber is ok" had nothing to do with what I was saying. I dont feel that I really can give a response to any of your questions. I am not in a position to know nor have the means to find out. I can say that I am wary to let a minority speak for majority of Muslims. So, I am skeptical that Islam is trying to move the rest of the world into the dark ages. I think on the whole Egypt is moving to a more enlightened direction. Atleast, the people are standing up for themselves. I believe Islam is becoming more tolerant around the world. Let me say this first we have to do what we have to do: but, Islam is intolerant of Abu Graib, GITMO, Predator strikes killing children, hypocritical nuclear policy, etc. However, I think this is changing due to many development projects and countries like Turkey/UAE setting examples of modern Islam. Who has more rights? Obviously, a muslim in the west. Sorry to get off topic
WayoftheWolf
08-28-2011, 20:58
I didn't at all attack you. I stated an opinion. My opinion was and is that whether you intended to or not, your post certainly made it sound as if American women are oppressed by society in regard to clothing and apparently body image. My response was simply alluding that those are personal choices not societal demands. As an American woman (maybe I am exception but at least I can base my ideas of women off being a woman), I don't at all feel as if I am forced to dress a certain way.
If you took my referring to you sounding like a confused feminist as a personal attack, then that's your problem.
I might be completely off base and out of line here and I have no doubt someone will be along very shortly to correct me if I am but I for one am tired of reading your posts where you laud your education like it's absolute and unique. I congratulate you for getting an education and in the process deciding to study areas that are or were out of the norm for you but you are not the only person on this site who is educated.
Now that I am completely off topic, I am finished.
My sincere apologies. I just wanted to have a conversation about something I was interested in and share my experiences. I never meant to throw my education in anybody's face and apologize for any disrespect. I have all the respect in the world for every type of education some more than others like the people on this site. The things you have learned, I can only read about. I dont want this to happen again; so, if you wouldnt mind taking the time and let me know specifically what I did, I would really appreciate it. That goes for anybody. Thanks and again I do apologize
Ambush Master
08-28-2011, 21:11
This is getting annoying. WotW - go sit quietly somewhere and meditate. Otherwise I'm about to introduce you to the consequences of annoying one of the Alphas.
Very.... Very.... CLOSE!!!
As a member of the boob squad.....
5 inch heels, a mini skirt and cleavage showing shirt,... I wear what I want when I want because I want to. Period. Thankfully, I live in a country that allows me the freedom to do so.
Amen sister, and more power too you. I seldom read so many words I like in one sentance/paragraph then as in yours, so thanks.
Of all the women in my life, in whom I have the upmost repect for, my Grandmother, (RIP), my mother and sisters, cousins, ex-wives (2), ex-GFs, (many and counting), wives of buddies and friends, etc. All have one common element or theme, and that is empowerment.
All do exactly what they want, while myself and all their men, (respectively) just think, "Why are they so damn cute?"
My father taught me a trick. Sometimes you have to make them hate you just enough that they walk away, so you can just watch them, walk away (wink, wink). In our house, it was when my father was washing engine parts in the dish-washer.
Nothing is quite are beautiful as a confident woman.
As for fashion police. I've been accused of having nicer legs then my date when we're out at the local pub and I'm wearing a kilt. Go figure.
ZonieDiver
08-28-2011, 21:34
I never meant to throw my education in anybody's face and apologize for any disrespect. I have all the respect in the world for every type of education some more than others like the people on this site.
I tried to make a point about this attitude of yours in the "Conflict in Israel" thread, but I guess you missed it. I'll be direct: bullcrap! You have a BA with a double major. Many of the QPs here have a BA/BS and many years of experience in more than one area - military and civilian. Many of the QPs have advanced degrees from more than one college. Several of our regular posters are very well-versed, academically - and have that pesky real world experience.
Where did you get your BA, Harvard? (That would explain a lot!)
And... no one cares whether you have a dog and a wolf or a hippo and a rhino! Read more and post less. You need to read tbrough this site and see how much 'book learning' some of the 'other types of education' people here actually have.
Team Sergeant
08-28-2011, 21:45
WayoftheWolf,
You now have the attention of quite a few Special Forces soldiers. Not the type of attention one desires on here. You may want to read more and post less, well only if you wish to extend your stay with us.
Team Sergeant
I can say that I am wary to let a minority speak for majority of Muslims. So, I am skeptical that Islam is trying to move the rest of the world into the dark ages.
I know this is going to get a bit off topic, so QPs/Mods/All please forgive me, however, since you have been instructed to do more reading than writing, lets point out the following issues with this statement, and fill in some gaps:
a. What you read is seen through the lens of the writer, however you wish to interpret it, it will almost always be biased towards the agenda of the writer, and to find a writer without some form of bias and/or agenda, is to find a snowball in hell.
b. Lets get something straight: The last cleric that attempted to moderately interpret the Koran, essentially stripping away all of the Medinan Suras which are considered most violent, was executed by Indonesia for heresy(can't find link at the moment, see Spencer's book). To say that AQ and the rest of the terror groups out there are fundamentalists, hyper-scriptualists, insane etc. is fundamentally wrong. Hadiths or not, Islam is rarely open to interpretation, while there are several small groups in America which are "legitimately" trying to promote a stripped down(minus most of the Medinan Suras and a few others), peaceful version, they are seen by most of their compatriots as heretics. The question begs, so why isn't every Muslim in America attempting Jihad, and the answer is maybe they are, and for those who truly aren't, those who just want to live their life, they would be held in the same regard as their "peaceful religion" brethren, by their Koran thumping, AK toting "brothers" who read the Koran in it's native tongue and interpret it as read. You can't argue with whats written, and so violently upheld over the ages...So your minority...isn't much of a minority at all. See point A, don't let the books fool you.
Do yourself a favor, since you seem to know some Arabic, read the Koran in chronological order, then pick up a copy of Robert Spencer's: The Infidels Guide to the Koran. Once you are done with that, read through every thread here on the subject, especially the posts by those who have spent considerable time in the sandbox and in "caveland".
c. This brings me to my last point: If you haven't asked it, I'll ask it for you: So why not the Jews? The Torah isn't liberal, it may be tolerant, but lets face the facts, Jews stone people. So how come many Jews aren't blind or hunting down Amalek? The answer to that is: For those Jews that believe(and abide by) in both the Written and Oral law, the written law is open to interpretation within certain parameters. The concept of Dina D'Malchusa Dina or "the law of the land is the law" provides Jews with the ability to live peacefully in exile within the framework of whatever country they reside in, provided the enforced laws do not infringe on Torah law; while they wait for the final redemption which is to be ascertained by G-D and not by man trying to take over the world.
My .02, YMMV
TOMAHAWK9521
08-29-2011, 08:34
Egypt’s Brotherhood declares war on the bikini
http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=235687
"Freedom and Justice" party leader: "We must place regulations on tourists wishing to visit Egypt."..............."
&
"............"The pharaonic culture is a rotten culture," A-Shahhat told the London-based Arabic daily A-Sharq Al-Awsat on Wednesday, saying the faces of ancient statues "should be covered with wax, since they are religiously forbidden." He likened the Egyptian relics to the idols which circled the walls of Mecca in pre-Islamic times................."
The true face of Islam folks.
As an ardent admirer and respectful connoisseur of the healthy and scantily-clad female form, I say they've gone too far this time. Them's fightin' words! :mad:
WayoftheWolf
08-29-2011, 11:25
Roger that! Thank you for the lesson
Roger that! Thank you for the lesson
People can find quotes from both sides of the issue that supports their view.
The key is who said it and what was the local reaction.
Here in this country some no-name preacher with a 100 member flock can say he's going to burn the Koran and a Shit Storm erupts. It's news everywhere around the world. Around the world Muslims riot killing many non-Muslims. The vast majority of people in the States are opposed to the act. Everybody's talking about it.
The links that we post quoting Muslims in the Middle East are not some dude at the corner Mosque.
The one in this post is by the equivalent of a senior leader in the DNC or RNC. Not an elected official but somebody high up in the party. There was no fire storm of opposition. I know this is a somewhat weak story but you can search back and find similar stories where similar high level individuals in government or political parties called for all kinds of violence against Jews or the west.
There is no moral outrage by the majority of the governed in a Muslim nation when leaders call for Jihad against Jews or the west. Do they agree? Disagree? Or "Hey do what you want"?
That is the point.
Pass out free 'Wicked Weasel' swimwear catalogs to all males under 25 and wait for the revolution to begin... ;) :D
Richard :munchin
PedOncoDoc
08-29-2011, 13:20
Pass out free 'Wicked Weasel' swimwear catalogs to all males under 25 and wait for the revolution to begin...
I was not familiar with this company before this post. I thank you for sharing this with us all, Richard.
That is definitely a company and product I can stand behind, or in front of, or next to....just not in. :D
(grammar be damned on this one) :D
QP Richard,
You are so evil in such a good way :D :lifter
TOMAHAWK9521
08-30-2011, 04:57
I would add Teaseum Bikini, Colleen Kelly Designs and Malibu Strings for a few other sites you may wish to sort through. Of course, that would be only so you could research high-quality, well-made swimsuits to get for the wife or significant other. :D
I mean, if you really want to piss the heathens off, go big.
...........I mean, if you really want to piss the heathens off, go big.
Maybe you meant to say "go small"?
So, it is your opinion that it is worse to be oppressed by physical means rather than by psychological means. I would argue that we do have fashion police running around. The societal pressure for women to fit a certain image that results in body augmentation, bulimia, anorexia. Even products solely for this oppression have been developed for diet food, diet pills, and a whole bunch of workout equipement. The way I look at it is that we tend to look at everthing as black or white; put techinically, a binary system. So, Arabs are one end of the continum where they do not want their female members of the family to talk to the other sex because they know what can happen to the point that they are very controlling. On the other end, we have Americans who have all the freedom in the world. We can talk to whom ever we want; but, then have many ramifications from that. Out of wedlock births, single parent mothers, abortions, promiscuity, stds, a highly sexualized culture,etc. I feel if we continue to make value judgements we will never move forward.
Women that go out in public in Egypt in modern western wear (modest ) have a 50/50 shot of being called a whore, groped, or worse.
When we first went to Egypt, in the late 70's, the Egyptian Officers got mad because we wouldn't share our female soldiers with them because any female in uniform had to be a whore.
Women are property regardless of how they dress, hijab, western, whatever...they are property http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bePfSeh2ZDs
Sharia law backed by Quranic verse indicate a woman is worth 1/2 as much as a man. Her word, her life.
That is the issue...not comparing std rates, which, btw, are totally unreported in the ME. Mostly with the foreign workers raped by their employers. They are not Muslim so who cares.
TOMAHAWK9521
09-01-2011, 01:09
Maybe you meant to say "go small"?
Yeah, you have a point there, Pete. Makes you wonder what the tensile strength of the dental floss or fishing line on some of those "suits" is. :D
Betty Friedan in the [first] wave of feminism wrote a book called, "The Feminine Mystique."
Perhaps I am a confused feminist. I think Mary Wollstonecraft would agree with you. Maybe also Marie de France. And Abigail Adams.
In regards to your admonishment that we cannot apply our value judgements to other societies and cultures, that argument is undermined by your contradictory use of Eurocentric terms (dark ages, enlightened) to define the Arabic world, as well as your use of reference points to establish a dialectical relationship between contrasting opposites. In some circles, this practice is known as Orientalism. (That is, the act of applying western frames of reference to foreign cultures demonstrates an implicit value judgement that one can be defined in terms of the other.)
And, by the way, not all iterations of feminism are contingent upon a duality. Some variants--for example those based in psychoanalytic psychology--posit that there's a spectrum of gendered identity and that this identity is in constant flux.
In regards to your broader point that since sexism is an international phenomenon we should not sit in judgement of people across the planet until our "house" is "clean," I question your intellectual commitment to a project that seeks to confront what is, hands down, the most persistent (and dangerous) of the four "isms" that the civilized world must confront if we are to prevail in GWOT.
On the surface, you use rhetoric to demonstrate your bona fides as a "feminist." Yet, in the same breath, you consistently use the very tropes that actual feminists rail against when they're trying to educate us to the enormity of this project.
Moreover, your metaphor of domesticity--an implicit call for a grand strategy centering around discredited notions of isolation rooted in late nineteenth century American populism--contradicts your belief that this is "not a zero sum game." The fact that one lives in a house that has issues does not mean that its residents can try to help neighbors down the street escape from their burning homes.
WayoftheWolf
09-01-2011, 12:10
In regards to your admonishment that we cannot apply our value judgements to other societies and cultures, that argument is undermined by your contradictory use of Eurocentric terms (dark ages, enlightened) to define the Arabic world, as well as your use of reference points to establish a dialectical relationship between contrasting opposites. In some circles, this practice is known as Orientalism. (That is, the act of applying western frames of reference to foreign cultures demonstrates an implicit value judgement that one can be defined in terms of the other.)
Agreed. But, how do I use orientalism without being labeled as culturally imperialistic? This is what I fear and my motivation for my writing.
mark46th
09-02-2011, 14:25
I really feel for the soldier fighting in the Mid East. Booze is forbidden, women are covered, and pork products are verboten.
I'll take Southeast Asia, any day. I would much rather be sitting on the beach with an ice cold Singha, a 19 year old hottie in a thong feeding me Pork Satay on a stick.
Whaddya think they'll say about the new "Spec4's in Speedos" layout in next month's GI gay rag?
I really feel for the soldier fighting in the Mid East. Booze is forbidden, women are covered, and pork products are verboten.
I'll take Southeast Asia, any day. I would much rather be sitting on the beach with an ice cold Singha, a 19 year old hottie in a thong feeding me Pork Satay on a stick.
She wasn't 19 and you know it ;)
Agreed. But, how do I use orientalism without being labeled as culturally imperialistic?
Log on to www.snivelaboutworthlessBS.com. I'm sure they can answer that question.
Agreed. But, how do I use orientalism without being labeled as culturally imperialistic?As orientialism is a tool and byproduct of cultural imperialism, can it be used to undermine a system of beliefs and practices that it ultimately serves?
IMO, the task is to figure out ways to describe the world of others in a way that they'd look at you and say "Yes, you get me. That is who I am."
From there, one's analysis should center primarily around how members of this cohort might better achieve the goals they've set for themselves in a manner that is consistent with their core beliefs.
That is, enable people to live the life they want to live, not the one you think they should live. If that method of living works for them but not for you, that's your problem, not theirs. (In regards to radical Islamicists, their way does not work for them because their underlying value systems pit them in a contest of civilizations that they cannot ever win, undermine fatally their ability to establish sustainable independent political economies, and prevent the formulation of a grand strategy that does not end up with them being politically irrelevant or annihilated in a general war.)
My $0.02.
The Reaper
09-02-2011, 19:56
She wasn't 19 and you know it ;)
Might not have been a "she" either.:D
TR
mark46th
09-02-2011, 21:27
Originally Posted by PRB
She wasn't 19 and you know it
Might not have been a "she" either.
TR
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She might not have been 19 but she was definitely a she. No katoys got near Danny and the Juniors!!!!