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Richard
07-30-2011, 07:22
Yet another aspect of the 'Arab Spring' to consider...the success of the Vinnell SANG modernization program, and its loyalty to the House of Saud and Islam.

http://www.vinnellarabia.net/

Richard :munchin

The Saudi Secret
James Dunnigan, 9 Jul 2011

Saudi Arabia has avoided any of the unrest that has hit the rest of the Arab world lately because the kingdom has two armed forces. One protects the royal family, the other protects Saudi Arabia. Overall, the Saudi military has about 200,000 troops. But 80,000 of those belong to a separate force, the National Guard. These are organized into eight brigades (three mechanized and five infantry, for a total of 32 battalions.) There are also another 24 battalions of National Guard reservists. About 75 percent of the National Guard troops spend most of their time guarding oil facilities, and other important government assets. The rest provide security for the royal family and key government officials. The most loyal, and able, members of the royal family hold senior commands in the National Guard. This is an organization that puts a lot of emphasis on loyalty.

The National Guard is well armed and trained, all of them. But most of all, they are loyal to the royal family. But being that the country is called Saudi Arabia, after the ruling Saud family, the National Guard also protects the government. Since the Sauds see themselves, first and foremost, as the protectors of the most holy places in Islam (Mecca and Medina), the National Guard also serves God. So the National Guard is far more than tribal warriors loyal to a wealthy and generous family. The National Guard are holy warriors, who follow the protectors of the Islamic holy places. That's a big deal in Arabia, and the Islamic world. While the National Guard recruits first for loyalty, next comes bravery and willingness to die for the cause (the royal family and Islam.) Then comes military aptitude.

The National Guard were originally, a century ago, the Ikwhan. These were truly holy warriors, being Bedouin fighters dedicated to the strict Wahhabi form of Islam, and killing enemies of Islam. The founder of Saudi Arabia (Abdul Aziz Ibn Saud) used the Ikwhan as his shock troops. In the 1930s, the new kingdom of Saudi Arabia had to crack down on the Ikwhan , who were continuing to raid outside the kingdom, since there were no more enemies to go after inside the kingdom. To avoid wars with neighboring states, the Ikwhan was shut down (with some bloodshed), and some of its members helped form the National Guard.

Foreign trainers brought in to help the National Guardsmen improve their combat skills note that many of their students are not well educated, but nearly all are eager to learn new ways to fight. The National Guard gets the best equipment, and gets it quickly. The National Guard is not armed to fight foreign enemies, but internal ones. It has no tanks or jet fighters. It has lots of wheeled armored vehicles, some artillery plus helicopters and light recon aircraft. The National Guard is equipped to get where they are needed quickly, and suppress any unrest before it can grow.

The communications of the National Guard connects directly to the royal family, and is set up to coordinate with the regular army. There is a paid tribal militia of 25,000 warriors, who are armed and equipped by the king. This is considered a National Guard reserve. These militiamen are organized into 24 battalions and are basically light infantry.

The National Guard has about a thousand wheeled armored vehicles and some artillery. In recent years, nearly $9 billion was spent on new wheeled armored vehicles, and lots of neat gadgets like night vision gear and new communications equipment. Bedouins love this stuff, and adapt quickly to it. The National Guard commanders noted the experience of American troops in Iraq, and have requested, and generally been able to purchase, all the weapons and gear American used successfully in Iraq. If the National Guard goes to war, it will be with Islamic radicals similar to those encountered in Iraq. The National Guard troops have also noted how Iraqi troops adopted American weapons and techniques, and been successful fighting terrorists.

Nearly all the National Guardsmen troops are Bedouins, usually from tribes that have been historical allies of the al Saud family. The king considers the Guardsmen his boys, and takes good care of them. If a Saudi needs a favor from the king, he's much more likely to get it if he is, or was a National Guardsman.

About a third of the National Guard are especially selected from the most loyal (to the royal family) families. This is the "White Army" (for the traditional white robes of the Bedouins). The most loyal force is the 2,000 man Royal Guard Regiment. These, as the name implies, are responsible for the day-to-day security of the king and his immediate family.

When Saudi Arabia was put together 80 years ago, many tribes were encouraged to join the new kingdom by force, or lots of verbal coercion. These groups continue to hold a grudge (a venerable Middle Eastern custom), and the most hostile of these are not recruited for the National Guard.

The National Guard has been called out several times, and has always managed to get the job done. In 1979, it was the National Guard who took down the Islamic radicals who had invaded the Grand Mosque in Mecca (with a lot of help, and some National Guardsmen also helped the rebels). In 1990, it was the National Guard that went in and chased Iraqi troops out of a Saudi border town. During the battle with al Qaeda from 2003-6, it was the National Guard that was called out when large numbers of troops were needed (usually to blockade an area terrorists were believed to be in). The loyalty of the National Guard was one reason al Qaeda was never able to make a successful attack on an oil facility. Al Qaeda often relies on bribes to penetrate heavy security. The National Guardsmen protecting those sites were incorruptible. The current unrest in the Middle East has not manifested itself in Saudi Arabia in part because Saudis realize that the National Guard will fight to the death to protect the royal family.

Team Sergeant
07-30-2011, 07:45
Yet another aspect of the 'Arab Spring' to consider...the success of the Vinnell SANG modernization program, and its loyalty to the House of Saud and Islam.

http://www.vinnellarabia.net/

Richard :munchin

The Saudi Secret
James Dunnigan, 9 Jul 2011

Saudi Arabia has avoided any of the unrest that has hit the rest of the Arab world lately because the kingdom has two armed forces. One protects the royal family, the other protects Saudi Arabia. Overall, the Saudi military has about 200,000 troops. But 80,000 of those belong to a separate force, the National Guard. These are organized into eight brigades (three mechanized and five infantry, for a total of 32 battalions.) There are also another 24 battalions of National Guard reservists. About 75 percent of the National Guard troops spend most of their time guarding oil facilities, and other important government assets. The rest provide security for the royal family and key government officials. The most loyal, and able, members of the royal family hold senior commands in the National Guard. This is an organization that puts a lot of emphasis on loyalty.

The National Guard is well armed and trained, all of them. But most of all, they are loyal to the royal family. But being that the country is called Saudi Arabia, after the ruling Saud family, the National Guard also protects the government. Since the Sauds see themselves, first and foremost, as the protectors of the most holy places in Islam (Mecca and Medina), the National Guard also serves God. So the National Guard is far more than tribal warriors loyal to a wealthy and generous family. The National Guard are holy warriors, who follow the protectors of the Islamic holy places. That's a big deal in Arabia, and the Islamic world. While the National Guard recruits first for loyalty, next comes bravery and willingness to die for the cause (the royal family and Islam.) Then comes military aptitude.

The National Guard were originally, a century ago, the Ikwhan. These were truly holy warriors, being Bedouin fighters dedicated to the strict Wahhabi form of Islam, and killing enemies of Islam. The founder of Saudi Arabia (Abdul Aziz Ibn Saud) used the Ikwhan as his shock troops. In the 1930s, the new kingdom of Saudi Arabia had to crack down on the Ikwhan , who were continuing to raid outside the kingdom, since there were no more enemies to go after inside the kingdom. To avoid wars with neighboring states, the Ikwhan was shut down (with some bloodshed), and some of its members helped form the National Guard.

Foreign trainers brought in to help the National Guardsmen improve their combat skills note that many of their students are not well educated, but nearly all are eager to learn new ways to fight. The National Guard gets the best equipment, and gets it quickly. The National Guard is not armed to fight foreign enemies, but internal ones. It has no tanks or jet fighters. It has lots of wheeled armored vehicles, some artillery plus helicopters and light recon aircraft. The National Guard is equipped to get where they are needed quickly, and suppress any unrest before it can grow.

The communications of the National Guard connects directly to the royal family, and is set up to coordinate with the regular army. There is a paid tribal militia of 25,000 warriors, who are armed and equipped by the king. This is considered a National Guard reserve. These militiamen are organized into 24 battalions and are basically light infantry.

The National Guard has about a thousand wheeled armored vehicles and some artillery. In recent years, nearly $9 billion was spent on new wheeled armored vehicles, and lots of neat gadgets like night vision gear and new communications equipment. Bedouins love this stuff, and adapt quickly to it. The National Guard commanders noted the experience of American troops in Iraq, and have requested, and generally been able to purchase, all the weapons and gear American used successfully in Iraq. If the National Guard goes to war, it will be with Islamic radicals similar to those encountered in Iraq. The National Guard troops have also noted how Iraqi troops adopted American weapons and techniques, and been successful fighting terrorists.

Nearly all the National Guardsmen troops are Bedouins, usually from tribes that have been historical allies of the al Saud family. The king considers the Guardsmen his boys, and takes good care of them. If a Saudi needs a favor from the king, he's much more likely to get it if he is, or was a National Guardsman.

About a third of the National Guard are especially selected from the most loyal (to the royal family) families. This is the "White Army" (for the traditional white robes of the Bedouins). The most loyal force is the 2,000 man Royal Guard Regiment. These, as the name implies, are responsible for the day-to-day security of the king and his immediate family.

When Saudi Arabia was put together 80 years ago, many tribes were encouraged to join the new kingdom by force, or lots of verbal coercion. These groups continue to hold a grudge (a venerable Middle Eastern custom), and the most hostile of these are not recruited for the National Guard.

The National Guard has been called out several times, and has always managed to get the job done. In 1979, it was the National Guard who took down the Islamic radicals who had invaded the Grand Mosque in Mecca (with a lot of help, and some National Guardsmen also helped the rebels). In 1990, it was the National Guard that went in and chased Iraqi troops out of a Saudi border town. During the battle with al Qaeda from 2003-6, it was the National Guard that was called out when large numbers of troops were needed (usually to blockade an area terrorists were believed to be in). The loyalty of the National Guard was one reason al Qaeda was never able to make a successful attack on an oil facility. Al Qaeda often relies on bribes to penetrate heavy security. The National Guardsmen protecting those sites were incorruptible. The current unrest in the Middle East has not manifested itself in Saudi Arabia in part because Saudis realize that the National Guard will fight to the death to protect the royal family.

Uh yeah, I'm throwing the bullshit flag, this the same Saudi National Guard that had their tank turrets aimed at the enemy and the tanks facing south.... (I think I have pictures.)

When the Iraqis came across the border in 1990-91 the Saudi soldiers broke and ran like hell. The only thing that stopped the Iraqis in their tracks was a Special Forces A-Team and US Marines. It took the US Military three days to talk the saudi cowards back into the fight and assist them in removing the invading Iraqis from their soil.

Saudi National Guard "Fearsome", not by any stretch of the imagination.

Team Sergeant

PRB
07-30-2011, 16:39
The Saudi army is literally a joke. I suspect they'd be ok at killing civilians but most of us here have had extensive dealings with them and they are a typical arab army. Lazy, barely trained and led by political or family leadership that gets advanced thru connection and not ability.
I've yet to work with an arab army unit that could pour piss out of a boot without instruction. Repeated instruction.
The Afghan army has its issues but one of my first thoughts after dealing with them was 'damn, at least they are better than dealing with arabs'....
Israel exists today because it fights arab armies.
I've got about a thousand stories that still amaze me when I think about working with the ..Saudi's, Egyptians,Morrocans, Jordanians, Kuwaiti's.....
I'll bet the Ikwhan were great at killing civilians too...if they were unarmed.

Team Sergeant
07-30-2011, 17:56
The Saudi army is literally a joke. I suspect they'd be ok at killing civilians but most of us here have had extensive dealings with them and they are a typical arab army. Lazy, barely trained and led by political or family leadership that gets advanced thru connection and not ability.
I've yet to work with an arab army unit that could pour piss out of a boot without instruction. Repeated instruction.
The Afghan army has its issues but one of my first thoughts after dealing with them was 'damn, at least they are better than dealing with arabs'....
Israel exists today because it fights arab armies.
I've got about a thousand stories that still amaze me when I think about working with the ..Saudi's, Egyptians,Morrocans, Jordanians, Kuwaiti's.....
I'll bet the Ikwhan were great at killing civilians too...if they were unarmed.

Only if the civilians were unarmed and their backs turned.....

They need not worry anymore they have the American sellout erik prince to save them.....

PRB
07-30-2011, 18:35
Only if the civilians were unarmed and their backs turned.....

They need not worry anymore they have the American sellout erik prince to save them.....

or captured, I've found the arabs to be 'extremely brave' when interogating captives,
they can really demonstrate their manhood when beating/torturing well tied up prisoners.

Oldrotorhead
07-30-2011, 20:13
The Saudi Royal family also funds the Wahhabi religious police which also helps them maintain control, indirectly. :munchin

kgoerz
07-31-2011, 05:51
Israel exists today because it fights arab armies.


I kind of had the same opinion after working with the IDF. They were squared away. But I believe the IDF is highly overrated.

Airbornelawyer
07-31-2011, 07:33
The SANG is not the Saudi Army. The Royal Saudi Land Forces are, I agree, a joke. They are among the worst soldiers I have ever encountered. The officers are dilettantes and martinets, and the enlisted soldiers lazy and unmotivated, because, ultimately, they know any real fighting will be done by the SANG and whichever foreign army comes to defend the kingdom and access to its oil supplies. We used to joke that the Saudis actually had the best army in the world, the US Army.

The SANG is marginally better. But again, it is primarily a paramilitary internal security force, not an army. It does not have tanks or IFVs. In the first Gulf War, it had VC-150s, and afterward began re-equipping with LAV-25s. Many units are much lighter, equipped with vehicles like the British Tactica 4x4.

As the article notes, its primary loyalty is to the royal family, especially the current king, Abdullah, who was its longtime commander. The current Crown Prince, Sultan, by contrast, commands the "loyalty", if that's at all possible, of the regular armed forces. He and his son Khalid are pretty much the dilettantes and martinets in chief.

The article's last paragraph mentions the experience of the SANG, but doesn't mention its most recent "combat". It was SANG forces that were sent in to intervene in Bahrain's recent unrest to protect the Bahraini royal family from Shi`ites in that country's "Arab Spring". That's the kind of mission they are probably best at.

The Royal Saudi Land Forces, meanwhile, have received a fair amount of egg on their faces and Crown Prince Sultan's, for their poor performance attempting to intervene in Yemen's civil strife.

Of the Arabs I've worked with, the only ones that came close to Western standards of training and morale were the Lebanese. I've known some individual soldiers from places like the UAE that were squared away, but they were generally the exception that proves the rule. The Saudis were the worst, followed by the Egyptians (but it should be noted the Egyptians I've known were officers who couldn't lead their way out of a field latrine; I've been told that Egyptian enlisted men, properly led, were reasonably capable soldiers). The Jordanians, for some reason probably related to memories of Glubb's Arab Legion, seem to get a measure of, to me, undeserved respect. Moroccans, Kuwaitis, Emiratis, etc. ... I'll agree with PRB.

BOfH
07-31-2011, 12:05
But I believe the IDF is highly overrated.

QP kgoerz,
Forty years ago or so, I would respectfully call you on that, however, today, sadly you are correct; if you think American morale is low, spend a week with an IDF platoon :boohoo

bofh

PRB
07-31-2011, 13:50
QP kgoerz,
Forty years ago or so, I would respectfully call you on that, however, today, sadly you are correct; if you think American morale is low, spend a week with an IDF platoon :boohoo

bofh

I believe the IDF is a very good team...but they have only had to fight 4th rate enemies/armies so there is no demonstrative proof of 'greatness'.
You are correct on the diff of 40 years....we sent some SFAS Cadre guys to Israel to look at methods/tech (sent elsewhere as well) 15 or so years ago and they were having dif recruiting folks for their commando/special units...this was a new issue as they had always had many vols in the past. More and more citizens were asking for non combat duty assignments when showing up for mandatory service and they were then having dif getting combat arms guys to assess for special units. A sea change in the population and not a good one.

longrange1947
07-31-2011, 20:31
I worked as a counter sniper and CAT team instructor with the Royal Guard off and on for four years through O'Gara Brothers. They are more motivated and better trained. Of course it is understandable as a fail on their part has some real personal consequences.

On the IDF, again it depends on the unit you are working with as to the morale and how serious they take training. Some take it damn serious and are quite good at their mission. They are surrounded by groups that want them to cease to exist. They are on a constant war footing and unfortunately, the liberals of Israel have now started the BS of soldier hating.

This screws with morale somewhat, I know I hated being around the hippies of the 60s and early 70s, and bashing them got you in trouble. :D

BOfH
08-02-2011, 13:13
...the liberals of Israel have now started the BS of soldier hating.


You raise a very good point, and I think the issue goes beyond it though. The early IDF and other defense/intelligence outfits within Israel were so driven by the aftermath of the Holocaust to the point that the words "Never again" are reportedly etched in Hebrew and English on Israels first nuclear warhead. The next(current) generation of Israeli warriors IMHO see the Holocaust as another tragedy in the annals of Jewish history, and the motivations are different, combined with a constant war-footing against an unconventional and unseen enemy has wreaked havoc on the IDF morale as a whole. There isn't always a real, tangible answer to the "Why are we fighting?", and the truth is just as murky as the lies...

My .02

Airbornelawyer
08-02-2011, 17:14
I think the change in the IDF came after and to some extent as a result of Operation Peace in Galilee in 1982. Prior to this, the focus of the IDF was defending Israel's borders, and their victories in the War of Independence, the '56 War, the Six-Day War and the Yom Kippur War were testaments to their skill and reinforced the David vs. Goliath ethos of the IDF.

But the 1982 invasion of Lebanon had two or three negative consequences. After 1982, much of the IDF's focus shifted from conventional military defense against Arab armies, who had repeatedly demonstrated their incompetence. Since then, instead, the IDF has become focused on counterinsurgency and counterterrorism, in South Lebanon after the invasion and within Israel's borders and in the territories since. Where the IDF soldier previously trained for the day war would come, now he found himself enmeshed in the daily grind of counterinsurgency. My friends and associates in the IDF (I grew up in South Florida and had several high school friends who ended up in the IDF) all agreed that morale in the IDF began to plummet at this point. Before, you were the army and air force that crushed Egyptian tank columns and shot the Syrian Air Force out of the sky. Now you spend every day playing terrorist whack-a-mole with no end in sight.

And further to LR's point on the Israeli Left: again before 1982, the Israeli Left was strongly pro-military and pro-aggressive defense of Israel. David Ben-Gurion (leader in the War of Independence and Prime Minister in the 1956 War), Levi Eshkol (PM during the Six-Day War), Golda Meir (PM during the Yom Kippur War), Moshe Dayan (IDF Chief in the 1956 War and Defense Minister in '67 and '73), Yitzhak Rabin (Chief of Staff in the Six-Day War and later Prime Minister) - they were all part of the Israeli Left. But the invasion of Lebanon seems to have changed the political calculus. Henceforth, Israeli leftists were free to view Israel as the bad guy, or at least be morally ambiguous. The IDF was no longer David facing an Arab Goliath, but had become Goliath. The stone-throwing Palestinian youths of the Intifada became the new David not just among anti-Israeli factions around the world, but among leftists within Israel. To their credit, outside of a fringe, the Israeli Left is relatively more serious, patriotic, and pro-defense than leftist political movements in most other Western countries, but the key word is "relatively".

BOfH
08-02-2011, 20:40
Entire post...


Spot on :lifter

I was attached to an IDF unit for 2 weeks when studying in Israel some years ago, along with many friends and relatives who served/have served. (For those who remember the 2005 settlement eviction fiasco, I grew up with Cpl. Avi Bieber) Most echo the same or similar sentiment(s).

G
09-11-2011, 20:19
Re: The talk on the IDF; from Oct 2000 through June 2006, the IDF were primarily concerned with fighting HAMAS in the territories and had become adept at capturing / killing MVT & HVT in those areas. All of the work over those years led to a degradation in the IDF's ability to conduct counter-guerrilla operations or flat out open-field warfare.

The self-analysis that took place after the 2006 Lebanon War led to a change in focus, upgrades in equipment etc etc...By all reports, Gaby Ashkenazi as CoS of the IDF oversaw a fundamental shift across all areas; from the Air force to Special Operations, Armour, Artillery, training of reserve units and so on. Anecdotally, friends who are currently in the reserves report far more intense training and much higher motivation than pre-2006.

Take Care...

G