View Full Version : Does Attrition Rate reflect Society?
Emachine190
07-21-2011, 13:36
When i originally started with Bud/s class 288 we started with around 230 in BO. When we went into Hell week the class number was in the 80s. Ive seen the spectrum on how much a Man can push himself, but the ones who do are significantly outnumbered by the ones who don't. Do you feel the drop rate indicates how weak society is?
Team Sergeant
07-21-2011, 13:40
When i originally started with Bud/s class 288 we started with around 230 in BO. When we went into Hell week the class number was in the 80s. Ive seen the spectrum on how much a Man can push himself, but the ones who do are significantly outnumbered by the ones who don't. Do you feel the drop rate indicates how weak society is?
Yes. It's also the reason we continue to lower standards, so everyone wins.....
Emachine190
07-21-2011, 13:52
I've always felt we lacked a Right of passage as a Nation. Which is going to lead me to send my firstborn to Africa to kill a Lion.
I've always felt we lacked a Right of passage as a Nation. Which is going to lead me to send my firstborn to Africa to kill a Lion.
Hakuna M'tata
Yes. It's also the reason we continue to lower standards, so everyone wins.....
Do you think standards have been lowered in the military? How about in the special operations community or SF specifically?
Do you think standards have been lowered in the military? How about in the special operations community or SF specifically?
Nice try.
Do you think standards have been lowered in the military? How about in the special operations community or SF specifically?
Do you think that question makes your @$$ look fat? :confused:
Richard :munchin
Nice try.
What? Did I miss something? I assume that I've either a) Asked a question which insults SF guys (in which case I apologize, I was just wondering) or b) Seems really obvious to you guys, and reveals the fact, to which I have previously confessed, that I have no military experience.
Emachine190
07-21-2011, 17:13
What? Did I miss something? I assume that I've either a) Asked a question which insults SF guys (in which case I apologize, I was just wondering) or b) Seems really obvious to you guys, and reveals the fact, to which I have previously confessed, that I have no military experience.
I think your not aware of the current debate in Socom. Which is are the standards getting lower or are the recruits coming better prepared. I lean to towards the recruits being in better shape.
Surgicalcric
07-21-2011, 17:35
I think your not aware of the current debate in Socom. Which is are the standards getting lower or are the recruits coming better prepared. I lean to towards the recruits being in better shape.
Not every selection process focuses simply on physical preparedness. Some require a bit more or did at one time...
Was having a discussion about this very topic with quite a few of my contemporaries today. We agree, the standards have been lowered...
Crip
Guess Mark and I should've waited so we could've avoided being in the last hard class...:rolleyes:
And so it goes...
Richard :munchin
mark46th
07-21-2011, 19:19
Richard and I watched about 50 or 60 guys quit one night. I guess they wanted a cup of hot chocolate more than they wanted to be an SF soldier...
Richard and I watched about 50 or 60 guys quit one night. I guess they wanted a cup of hot chocolate more than they wanted to be an SF soldier...
Nobody told me there was hot cocoa!
Nobody told me there was hot cocoa!
You would've had to have been there...but you would've been like we were - they could've killed us, they could've dropped us, we could've gotten sick or injured...but we weren't gonna quit. ;)
Richard :munchin
Standards rise and fall with the command's perception of manpower needs. Always have and always will. Being out of the game for 13 years now, it does appear to me that there is much more emphasis on prior preparation. All of the books and pamphlets that have been written with tips to get ready for the courses; the information the recruiting battalions disseminate; access to the courses by media making documetaries on what happens during the course; and the plethora of websites dealing with them.
I think all of this information may keep many of those that would attend because they thought it would be cool to wear a Green Beret or a Trident away. They see the students on TV getting their asses kicked and decide it may not be for them before they ever try.
ObliqueApproach
07-21-2011, 23:29
You would've had to have been there...but you would've been like we were - they could've killed us, they could've dropped us, we could've gotten sick or injured...but we weren't gonna quit. ;)
Richard :munchin
There are many metrics to determine who you select and who you don't, but I think the first and most important one is just what Richard voiced, which is why he is a QP, you won't quit. No matter how bad it gets, you know deep down in your soul, that there is no give and no quit among your brothers. If you start with that as the base requirement, then you can assess the other quailities necessary to be an SF soldier. I am not sure many people really understand this, but it is no less true, at least IMO.
We didn't coin the term "March or Die", but I sure heard it often enough.
Just my .02.........:munchin
There are many metrics to determine who you select and who you don't, but I think the first and most important one is just what Richard voiced, which is why he is a QP, you won't quit. No matter how bad it gets, you know deep down in your soul, that there is no give and no quit among your brothers. If you start with that as the base requirement, then you can assess the other quailities necessary to be an SF soldier. I am not sure many people really understand this, but it is no less true, at least IMO.
We didn't coin the term "March or Die", but I sure heard it often enough.
Just my .02.........:munchin
I'm sure my Quiet Professional Brothers have the same dictionary I have. The only "Q" words in it are "Quiet Professional", "Qualified" and "Q Course". There is no "quit" in our dictionaries.
Along with March or Die, we also have the Spartan version. "Come back with your shield or on it, or don't come back at all".
Even though you may pass Selection, you still have to make it through the SFQC and get to a ODA. Lot of people didn't make it to the end goal for whatever reason. You have to earn your right to stay and serve on a ODA. There are NO silver spoons.
ZonieDiver
07-22-2011, 10:13
Do you think standards have been lowered in the military? How about in the special operations community or SF specifically?
The reactions you get (in this thread and the previous one on 'religion/ faith' are probably because your questions are somewhat controversial (hence, they raise 'trolling' issues amongst regular members), and because they tend to involve topics that are pretty well-covered in this site. This indicates a lack of familiarity with the massive contents of this site.
That familiarity can only be attained by thoroughly reading and digesting. Newcomers are often told "read more, post less" by QPs and regulars. This isn't because we are rude and short-tempered, but because many of these topics have been well-covered, and more than a few have been beaten to death.
By the way, the method for deleting a post you have composed that you think should NOT be posted is by NOT clicking on the "Submit Reply" icon.
I hope this helps.
Team Sergeant
07-22-2011, 10:24
Nobody told me there was hot cocoa!
My class instructors offered "hot" coffee, donuts, a lifesaver and a ride home if you quit.;)
@JAH687, You now have the attention of a dozen or more Special Forces soldiers. It's not the sort of attention one desires. Read more post less.
Team Sergeant
My class instructors offered "hot" coffee, donuts, a lifesaver and a ride home if you quit.;)
Yep - ours offered warm food, a dry place to sleep, a hot shower, and clean clothes and dry boots. It was amazing how many took them up on it.
Richard :munchin
ZonieDiver
07-22-2011, 11:53
Guess Mark and I should've waited so we could've avoided being in the last hard class...:rolleyes:
And so it goes...
Richard :munchin
I'm glad I was a couple months ahead of you two... "The Class Before The Last Hard Class"!:D
In my class, they must have offered iced tea or lemonade and a long cold shower - or something to get rid of that damned prickly heat.
Quitting never crossed my mind.
mark46th
07-22-2011, 16:28
A Life Saver!?!? What flavor? I might have considered it for a Butter Rum Lifesaver...
ZonieDiver
07-22-2011, 19:06
A Life Saver!?!? What flavor? I might have considered it for a Butter Rum Lifesaver...
Mmmmm, that would have been good. When he got my weapon, SFC Nail offered me the choice between pulling the rest of his CQ or turning me in to the First Sergeant in the morning. Guess what I chose? I had 2 days left, and thought it was all over!
I often thought I'd be shit-canned, but never thought of quitting!
Joshua.David
07-22-2011, 19:29
I think your not aware of the current debate in Socom. Which is are the standards getting lower or are the recruits coming better prepared. I lean to towards the recruits being in better shape.
I'd say it's both honestly. People are doing a lot more research before coming into any program in the military. At the same time the physical fitness of 18-21 year olds joining the military is really high. I thought I was in great shape being from 2/75 but all of the 18x's I met were in MUCH better shape than me. They also knew what to expect and basically everything that was going on.
Standards were lowered for the military in general.
1stindoor
07-23-2011, 09:18
Mmmmm, that would have been good. When he got my weapon, SFC Nail offered me the choice between pulling the rest of his CQ or turning me in to the First Sergeant in the morning. Guess what I chose? I had 2 days left, and thought it was all over!
I often thought I'd be shit-canned, but never thought of quitting!
When I lost control of my weapon during Robin Sage (Phase III in my day)...I got the opportunity to dig my own grave after the patrol. Six foot deep, length and width appropiate all with one E-tool throughout the night. I spent the rest of my time in RS covered in dirt...and sleep deprived.
Team Sergeant
07-23-2011, 16:56
When I lost control of my weapon during Robin Sage (Phase III in my day)...I got the opportunity to dig my own grave after the patrol. Six foot deep, length and width appropiate all with one E-tool throughout the night. I spent the rest of my time in RS covered in dirt...and sleep deprived.
LOLOLOL now I've heard everything.......that's some funny shit......:D