Eric Haney on Schools as Targets

[Roguish Lawyer]

He was on TV a couple of days ago, on Fox I think, commenting on Beslan and the general topic of terrorists attacking schools. He said he is very concerned that terrorists are targeting schools (taking hostages or just killing kids or whatever) in the US, particularly Jewish schools. He said it is critical for local LEOs to get their SWAT teams trained ASAP to deal with this type of threat because federal units like HRT and Delta cannot be deployed quickly enough to respond if the terrorists start killing early.

While I am sure that there are limitations on what some of you can say in a public forum, I am interested in any comments on what SGM Haney had to say.

:munchin

[rubberneck]

I am afraid that no SWAT team in America can handle a well co-ordinated terrorist attack on a school especially if they have explosives. If the terrorists are hell bent on blowing themselves up I don't see how you can stop them after they have gained control of the school. Any assault is likely to lead to the detonation of the explosives and the loss of life. As a nation our only hope is to keep them out in the first place.

[The Reaper]

You have to lock down the facility, delay the bad guys, and keep them out till the cavalry arrives.

To do this you need good SA/intel, a good response plan, an SRT on a short leash, and most of all, dedicated SROs with the right weapons and training to fight a delaying action.

The SRO at Columbine exchanged a few rounds and ran. If you do that with the current threat, you can write off your kids.

I think ALL officers need better training, and a minimum of a patrol carbine and gas in every car.

Just my .02, YMMV.

TR

[Team Sergeant]

I am afraid that no SWAT team in America can handle a well co-ordinated terrorist attack on a school especially if they have explosives.


This is true.

It took the local LEO's HOURS to enter Columbine high school and the teenage gunmen were already dead.

The solution is not an LEO SWAT team, the solution lies with the US military.

[Air.177]

What about letting Qualified Teachers Carry? Maybe just have a carbine in a Locker in their Classroom. Of course you would have to train the hell out of them else a determined student would just pick up and use their weapon after they got shot

[Team Sergeant]

What about letting Qualified Teachers Carry? Maybe just have a carbine in a Locker in their Classroom. Of course you would have to train the hell out of them else a determined student would just pick up and use their weapon after they got shot

Haven't done much Counter-Terror work have you Air.....
Push away from the keyboard, now move out and draw fire!

TS

[Air.177]

Haven't done much Counter-Terror work have you Air.....
Push away from the keyboard, now move out and draw fire!

TS


Sorry TS, Was intended as a reply to TR's statement about a delaying action. Not an alternate course of action all together. I agree that the best folks for the task should be used, but they may not always be available immediately.

[rubberneck]

I agree that the best folks for the task should be used, but they may not always be available immediately.


The problem as I see it is that if this ever does happen here the terrorists aren't going to take a school as leverage for gaining some unspecified demands. More likely than not their one and only goal will be mass murder. By the time local authorities are alerted and on the scene the terrorists will have consolidated control of the school and it will be all over.

Even worse is that cities like NYC, Chicago and DC have made firearm ownership so difficult, if not illegal, that you can can count out an armed civilian response in the mean time.

[Roguish Lawyer]

If I was in charge of Homeland Security, I'd make sure that we were putting detailed intel on all U.S. schools into some sort of database or file so that HRT or whoever knows what they need to know about the school for planning purposes. Blueprints or whatever, you know?

[Sacamuelas]

Posse Comitatus clarifications emphasize supportive and technical assistance (e.g., use of facilities, vessels, aircraft, intelligence, tech aid, surveillance, etc.) while generally prohibiting direct participation of DoD personnel in law enforcement (e.g., search, seizure, and arrests).

Ramifications of the Posse Comitatus law regarding the Team Sergeant's suggestion? :munchin
Specifically, in a rapid developing school seige where the motives, backgrounds, and national origins of the attackers is unknown. Is this the scenario for the military's action or just FBI HRT?

[Smokin Joe]

I agree with TS the answer lies within.

Not with LEO's, there are too much politics in Law Enforcement for us to appropriately and adequately tackle this problem in a dynamic situation. Agencies have revamped there policies to address a Columbine type shooting, the policies and training we have received seems adequate, but we don’t train enough in it to be extremely effective. Also the trainings we have received deals with a few “Active Shooters” not well trained, organized, motivated, Terrorists. These IMHO are two totally separate scenarios.

I would be suprised if even the FBI HRT could handle something on the scale of what Russia recently saw.

Just my .02 cents

[Smokin Joe]

Posse Comitatus clarifications emphasize supportive and technical assistance (e.g., use of facilities, vessels, aircraft, intelligence, tech aid, surveillance, etc.) while generally prohibiting direct participation of DoD personnel in law enforcement (e.g., search, seizure, and arrests).

Ramifications of the Posse Comitatus law regarding the Team Sergeant's suggestion? :munchin
Specifically, in a rapid developing school seige where the motives, backgrounds, and national origins of the attackers is unknown. Is this the scenario for the military's action or just FBI HRT?

The answer is.

Executive Order lifting Posse Comitatus! And let the 1st string players do what they are trained to do.

[Sacamuelas]

Yes, I am aware of how the law can be worked around for National Security concerns.

I hate posting in these type threads, as I know the ones that actually have the most important opinions on the matter are least likely to post.

I think I will just :munchin

[Team Sergeant]

=Sacamuelas
Specifically, in a rapid developing school seige where the motives, backgrounds, and national origins of the attackers is unknown. Is this the scenario for the military's action or just FBI HRT?

If there were an incident on US soil a tenth of the scale of what just happened Russia, pray the FBI HRT or any other (civilian) Federal law enforcement does not try to resolve the situation.

The twenty years I stood watch over this great nation there was always one aspect I understood concerning my mission as a soldier in the United States Army, that I was prepared to give my life in the defense of this nation and to order soldiers to their death if the mission called for such an action. (I don’t think the LEO’s take the same oath we do in the military.)

We will accomplish the mission, no matter the odds, we ask no quarter, and we will give none.
Never compare the US military with the civilian law enforcement. They have their job, we have ours.

Team Sergeant

[Roycroft201]

The solution is not an LEO SWAT team, the solution lies with the US military

TS,

I am not sure I understand your comment.

Do you mean a military solution as a response to a terrorist takeover of a school on US soil or do you mean a military solution to the GWOT worldwide, before it can threaten our children in schools here at home ?

RC201

[NousDefionsDoc]

I think both. And I agree.

[Smokin Joe]

TS,

I am not sure I understand your comment.

Do you mean a military solution as a response to a terrorist takeover of a school on US soil or do you mean a military solution to the GWOT worldwide, before it can threaten our children in schools here at home ?

RC201

I believe he is talking about a certain group of individuals who are trained to handle this SPECIFIC situtation.


Just my interpratation. :cool:

[Jgood]

Just my .02

But i think if this type situation happens there will be a delay by the terrorist to get maxium news coverage AQ seems to want large scale to show their power.The reaction of killing 300 adults vs 300 kids isnt even comparable.

as for the Teachers packing alot of schools already have armed LEOs on site atleast at my highschool did and that was back in 95.

Training is the key

[Team Sergeant]

What I was saying is that the US military is the only “force” trained, equipped and prepared to deal with heavily armed terrorists.

We cannot train civilian swat teams to take on terrorists. It’s not feasible.

I propose we stand up three military "domestic" counter-terrorist units. One in Iowa, Central Calif. and South Carolina with an “Executive order” (green light) to deploy in minutes anywhere in the United States to resolve any “domestic” terrorist situation.

I further propose that once a domestic terrorist situation is identified a media blackout is automatically enforced and if broken a mandatory 5 year prison sentence imposed on any breaking this order.

swat teams and FBI HRT is not the answer when dealing with terrorists.

TS

[Roguish Lawyer]

What I was saying is that the US military is the only “force” trained, equipped and prepared to deal with heavily armed terrorists.

We cannot train civilian swat teams to take on terrorists. It’s not feasible.

I propose we stand up three military "domestic" counter-terrorist units. One in Iowa, Central Calif. and South Carolina with an “Executive order” (green light) to deploy in minutes anywhere in the United States to resolve any “domestic” terrorist situation.

I further propose that once a domestic terrorist situation is identified a media blackout is automatically enforced and if broken a mandatory 5 year prison sentence imposed on any breaking this order.

swat teams and FBI HRT is not the answer when dealing with terrorists.

TS

I like the first idea. The second probably violates the First Amendment. I think that's an interesting policy discussion, though.

[Team Sergeant]

I like the first idea. The second probably violates the First Amendment. I think that's an interesting policy discussion, though.


I’m not going to debate constitutional law with an attorney as I am merely a soldier, but, anything that aids or furthers a terrorist’s cause should be against the law. Providing media coverage during a terrorist’s siege is providing assistance and support to the terrorists.

TS

[The Reaper]

I’m not going to debate constitutional law with an attorney as I am merely a soldier, but, anything that aids or furthers a terrorist’s cause should be against the law. Providing media coverage during a terrorist’s siege is providing assistance and support to the terrorists.

TS


Concur. Less publicity defeats the terrorists purpose.

You have my vote.

TR

[NousDefionsDoc]

I like the first idea. The second probably violates the First Amendment. I think that's an interesting policy discussion, though.

Clearly - however, the US Constitution is not a suicide pact.

[Roguish Lawyer]

I’m not going to debate constitutional law with an attorney as I am merely a soldier, but, anything that aids or furthers a terrorist’s cause should be against the law. Providing media coverage during a terrorist’s siege is providing assistance and support to the terrorists.

TS

We both only get one vote. ;)

[Smokin Joe]

I like the first idea. The second probably violates the First Amendment. I think that's an interesting policy discussion, though.

So what, if we are lifting Posse Comitatus. Do you really think we are gonna worry about someone's 1st Amendment?

The President was prepared to shoot down passenger aircraft on 9/11. I don't think he will give a rat's ass about the medias 1st Amendment rights if we have a Terrorist Seige on our own soil.

Remember the media (almost) black out during Operation Enduring Freedom?

Donald Rumsfeild telling the reporters stuff like, "You don't need to know that."

:lifter

[Air.177]

The Following is the Uninformed opinion of a Civilian:

My understanding of the whole deal is that When the word "Terrorism" is thrown into the mix, all kinds of avenues for military action are opened, at home, Abroad, whereever. I have no concrete evidence to back this up, this is just the way things have always appeared to me.

As for First amendment,what about Censorship Concerning the Military in time of War? We are at War. During WWII, there were TONS of Pics and stats not released to the Public. I've even seen Pics from Vietnam that had Blacked out places. I think the Media Blackout would have to go Hand in Hand with Military envolvement.

Just My .02

[Roguish Lawyer]

So what, if we are lifting Posse Comitatus. Do you really think we are gonna worry about someone's 1st Amendment?

The President was prepared to shoot down passenger aircraft on 9/11. I don't think he will give a rat's ass about the medias 1st Amendment rights if we have a Terrorist Seige on our own soil.

Remember the media (almost) black out during Operation Enduring Freedom?

Donald Rumsfeild telling the reporters stuff like, "You don't need to know that."

:lifter

If the terrorists are foreigners, why would Posse Comitatus apply? If we were invaded by a foreign army, I do not believe that Possee Comitatus would prevent our troops from resisting that invasion on our own soil. And how would we know the nationality of the terrorists in any event?

AL, do you know whether military CT teams are precluded from responding to domestic terrorist activity?

[Huey14]

As for First amendment,what about Censorship Concerning the Military in time of War? We are at War. During WWII, there were TONS of Pics and stats not released to the Public. I've even seen Pics from Vietnam that had Blacked out places. I think the Media Blackout would have to go Hand in Hand with Military envolvement.

Just My .02

In WW2 the only way to get to a war zone to cover it would have been either by boat or by the military. There were no boats running and the military would have told them to fuck off. So easier to censor.

The world was smaller during Vietnam, but not as small as it is today. With super cheap air fares, Journos can get anywhere in the world within 24 hours. Which means there's an uncontrolled flow of journos, which didn't happen during WW2, and only seemed to happen (someone correct me on this) to a small extent during Vietnam.

So there lays the problem. Enforcing a media blackout is next to impossible, what with satellite TV and everything. IMHO, befriending the media and giving them a little bit access here and here could give the military a lot more leverage. A bit like how the White House runs things. Fuck up and piss people off, you lose your access.

Could work.

[Smokin Joe]

If the terrorists are foreigners, why would Posse Comitatus apply? If we were invaded by a foreign army, I do not believe that Possee Comitatus would prevent our troops from resisting that invasion on our own soil. And how would we know the nationality of the terrorists in any event?

AL, do you know whether military CT teams are precluded from responding to domestic terrorist activity?

If they were "Confirmed" Foreigners then I don't 'think' Posse Comitatus applies. But in a very dynamic situtation, I think waiting to find out one way or the other waists valuable time. Not to mention some of the most horrific Terrorist acts that have happened her in the last 25 years have been from domestic Terrorist. :munchin

[Team Sergeant]

If they were "Confirmed" Foreigners then I don't 'think' Posse Comitatus applies. But in a very dynamic situtation, I think waiting to find out one way or the other waists valuable time. Not to mention some of the most horrific Terrorist acts that have happened her in the last 25 years have been from domestic Terrorist.

Roger, I agree, there's no time to argue when hostages are involved. If there is more than one armed asshole with hostages then they are terrorists, end of story.

[MAB32]

I agree with what is being stated here as far as putting team(s) together to handle such a threat/takeover. While I don't agree with the idea or proposal to "miltarize" the Police here in this country, I, on the other hand, will never agree to have the military act as Law Enforcement and/or a SWAT Team in my little corner of the world. The military has no business in civllian affairs in this country unless the incident takes place on a base, fort, camp, or port.

TS, I bleed red blood and took an oath to defend the Constitution of this great nation just like you did. We have a wall in DC to prove it and new names get added every year because of that oath and for dying for dying for people who most of the time we don't even know. We are not perfect and neither are you when it comes to handling these types of attacks. 9/11 convinced us all of that. I agree we need better training and allot "shorter leash". We also need better equipment. Maybe down the road it will happen via grants, new laws, and/or directives from the State or Federal government. Unfortunately another incident may have to happen to get the ball rolling. Columbine will still be studied for years to come because of what happened there. Out of that came the "active shooter(s)" model for response. Although not a perfect way of doing things we are still going to have the first four officers to arrive on scene going in and confronting him/her/them. Suicide? Probably. But even in the best of situations "intel" about who, what, where, and how will be sketchy at best from students and teachers running past you crying and screaming hysterically. This is our training.

Bottom line is I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one. :)

[Team Sergeant]

Bottom line is I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one. :)

Disagree all you like the bottom line is the LEO’s are not trained or equipped to take on terrorists. Hollywood, Waco, Ruby Ridge, and Columbine have already proved (beyond a doubt) the Fed, State and local LEO capabilities. We’re not talking crack-heads or armed robbers, we’re talking terrorists that have but one motivation, to kill.
Let me throw out a phrase the LEO’s do not use, “acceptable losses”. Tell me that the LEO’s will enter a situation knowing they will/might take 10-30% losses? Not a chance.
I never questioned any LEO’s patriotism, I know you guys bleed red and I sleep well knowing you guys (and gals) are on duty 24/7. My point was the military can and will be ordered into a situation where there will be military losses. Civilian LEO’s can quit and walk away at anytime. Don’t tell me that Joe LEO is ready to “close with” twenty- forty AK carrying, bomb wearing, crazed terrorists on the command of his local police chief, that dog ain’t going to hunt.

Disagree all you like, just pray it never happens on US soil with a jimmy carter type in office.

Before you continue may I divert your attention to the paragraphs below, please take a minute to peruse them. This is a sample of what Special Forces soldiers are trained in and prepared to execute on command. (My comments are not derived from staying at a Holiday Inn or reading books on terrorism, I’ve spent a few years working in this field….)




http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/ct.php

“Counterterrorism (CT). These are operations that include the offensive measures taken to prevent, deter, preempt, and respond to terrorism. SOF's role and additive capability is to conduct offensive measures within DOD's overall combatting terrorism efforts. SOF conduct CT missions as special operations by covert, clandestine, or low visibility means. SOF's activities within CT include, but are not limited to, intelligence operations, attacks against terrorist networks and infrastructures, hostage rescue, recovery of sensitive material from terrorist organizations, and non-kinetic activities aimed at the ideologies or motivations that spawn terrorism:
Intelligence Operations. These are operations to collect, exploit, and report information on terrorist organizations, personnel, assets, and/or activities. SOF have the capability to conduct these operations in an overt, covert, and/or clandestine manner.
Network and Infrastructure Attacks. These are operations that involve preemptive strikes against terrorist organizations with the objective of destroying, disorganizing, or disarming terrorist organizations before they can strike targets of national interest.
Hostage or Sensitive Materiel Recovery. These are operations conducted to rescue hostages and/or recover sensitive materiel from terrorist control, requiring capabilities not normally found in conventional military units. The safety of the hostages and preventing destruction of the sensitive materiel are essential mission requirements.
Non-Kinetic Activities. These are actions that are focused on defeating the ideologies or motivations that spawn terrorism by non-kinetic means. These could include, but are not limited to, PSYOP, IO, CA operations, UW and/or FID.”

[JGarcia]

If armed terrorists are on US soil, I think it could be qualified as a military strike on US soil. That being the case, the DOD is the owner of those targets. I wouldnt even imagine that posse comitatus applies. You wouldnt roll out the local SWAT team when BMP's are rolling down the street. If billy bob has a knife on his mamas throat, while his kids watch, thats a job for swat. If 3 guys hold up in a school with machine guns and explosives, that should be a military target.

But without a doubt, when you have what you had in Russia, combatants with RPG's, machine guns, and explosives, there is no room in that for police, except for perimeter security to keep civilians away.

For a long time the police in the US have had aspirations of being more like the military, and as TS metioned earlier, without success. Wearing a Kpot and weilding an M4 does not an operator make.

I read a book a few years back, I think it was called "Killology" by a LTC. So and So. He described police as Sheep Dogs, and the military as Wolves.

[skibum]

On Killing... LTC Grossman's web site is www.killology.com

LTC Grossman describes aggressive sociopaths (whether gang-bangers, Middle-Eastern tyrants, video game-addicted shut-ins, religeous zealots or what have you) as wolves hunting the sheep, and LE/Mil as sheepdogs protecting the flock.

As a Marine turned LE, I have to agree with the Team Sergeant about the mindset of cops vs military. Cops really like to talk about "civilians don't do this, civilians don't understand that," but almost universally have no conception the true difference between military and civilians.
A great majority think a 300 yard center mass rifle hit with iron sights is something magical.
Colonel Grossman may or may not rightfully include LE in the calssification of "warriors," but I'd have to add that a great many of them(us) are under-trained, under-motivated and over-paid. NDD may recall a reply I made to his thread on SocNet with a similar subject matter. My department did away with physical standards before I joined... as civil servants, some (or the FOP lawyers) argued that if you weren't going to physically train your force, you could not require physical fitness standards.

Razor knows, my department is the one that dealt with the Columbine H.S. shootings. He's heard my <ahem> strong views on the subject, but on an open forum, I'll just say that for the last two years, our active shooter response training (bearing the grandiose, military ninja warrior name of "RAID" for Rapid And Immediate Deployment) has consisted of four hours of training PER YEAR, of walk-through hallway and room clearing practice (not to be confused with drills or exercises or, God forbid, training). No shooting on the move at small moving targets. No precision shooting (HA! As if). No force-on-force with simmunitions or even paintballs. No IED recognition. No secondary device awareness/avoidance.

Four hours.

Is that 'nuff said on the warrior mindset/mentality of LE? (I know, I know, this is anecdotal and a single sample... but wouldn't you think we would want to be prepared to handle things better next time if a similar situation arose?)

HOWEVER (you knew there had to be a "However," didn't you?), Colonel Grossman argues (convincingly I think) that LE patrol HAS to be the responders... it takes our SWAT Team a minimum of 45 minutes to muster on an emergency call out. My rough estimate is it would take about 90 minutes for a dedicated SMU from the 10th SFG (assuming purely for the sake of discussion that there was such an SMU), with an element continually on standby, to reach Columbine. The shooting was over in 20 minutes. How long would it take for this military force to reach Cheyenne? Albuquerque?

A Beslam-type school hostage-taking? Heck, yeah, send in the first string, and I don't mean FBI's HRT.

But for a fire team of Mujahideen running through the halls of Elementary School, USA, the best (not perfect) solution is to gun them down like the rabid dogs they are (or "wolves," if you will) ASAP. Can LE do that at our current state of mindset, tactics, skill? I doubt it, and it will be a steep, horrific learning curve when we're caught - and we will be - with our trousers down. (recognize that "mindset, tactics, skill, etc," Razor?)

Believe me, I don't think for a second that LE is capable of conducting counter-terrorist operations, for a whole host of reasons that go beyond civil servant mindset vs warrior mindset, but the differences in mindset is the biggest stumbling block by far. If we experience school shootings of the type the Isrealis suffered in the mid-to-late 20th century, we're going to have to learn to immediately flood the area with gunfighters (of whatever flavor) and accept some casualties. I happen to think we're at war, or anyway Islam's at war with us, and the less time spent in the denial stage the better.

I've been wrong before, though

[Razor]

Good post, skibum. However, having seen you shoot (albeit on a relatively static range) I don't think you have much to worry about in the 'lack of training' department. ;)

The biggest difference that I have seen between Mil and LEO mindset (from an outsider's view of LEO, mind you) is captured in the seemingly popular LEO logo '1*'.

[NousDefionsDoc]

How so on the logo Razor?

[Razor]

As was explained to me once, it's a play on the phrase "One Ass to Risk", and serves as a reminder to LE officers that they are putting their life on the line everytime they leave the station. Therefore, they should consider the danger before taking actions that could get them killed. *

While soldiers and their leaders need to be aware of the dangers involved in a mission and mitigate those within their sphere of control, mission completion comes first. You may not want to assault the well defended machine gun bunker, but if its standing between you and the OBJ with no way around it, by God you do what you have to to get the job done.

* Note: this was how it was explained to me by a cop buddy, so if other LEOs have a different interpretation of the logo, please feel free to educate me on your point of view.

[Team Sergeant]

Great post Skibum…. I concur with most of what you said and totally agree with your statement;

“ a fire team of Mujahideen running through the halls of Elementary School, USA, the best (not perfect) solution is to gun them down like the rabid dogs they are (or "wolves," if you will) ASAP”
Every police dept can have an “Emergency Shooting Response Plan”. That needs to be in place with every police department throughout the United States.

Unlike SGM Haney I don’t think teaching LEO’s “how to kill” is the answer. It would not come off well with the other 99% of their everyday line of work. You would end up with a very aggressive police force and one the “people” would not want “protecting” them.

I don’t have al the answers, but my plan for a few “Domestic Counter-terrorist units is better than the SGM’s in my opinion.

TS

[skibum]

"1*" = "one asterisk" = "one ass to risk"

I'm sure you didn't need me to explain that, though, NDD.

[skibum]

Two years ago, my department made a feeble effort to get everyone "IC 200" trained (It's a part of the ICS - Incident Command System, pioneered by wildfire agencies but based on the military model of a command staff)... we spent 4 - 6 hours bitching (not me, of course, being a new guy I professionally kept my big mouth shut) and listening to a guy who didn't really understand it himself try to "teach" it to us. We were doing it to "get on with this Homeland Security stuff" as one Lieutenant explained it.

Having gone through the training a year earlier as the training officer for the water rescue team where I live, I wondered why it took two days of solid, knowledgeable instruction to seasoned, motivated rescuers, and only half a day to cops who don't know (or care to) the difference between ABCs and AEDs.

Now I know.

I'm sure that, if asked, someone on the staff here will say we have an Emergency Shooting Response Plan, and may even be able to come up with something that sounds reasonable (not doable... two different critters in LE), but if you ask one of the rank and file, you'll get a blank stare. That's a long-winded way to say that, yes, every department needs to have one, but don't.

Of course, I may be tarring all of LE with the same brush; one of my Sgts agrees with me that we are way behind when it comes to training, and says that other metro agencies do better. But, Jesus Christ, there are cops and staff here that will have to live the rest of their lives with what they did (or failed to do) at Columbine! The whole blame/ lawsuit/ risk/ career jeopardy avoidance keeps us from learning from our mistakes. I can only hope that others are smarter.

[NousDefionsDoc]

As was explained to me once, it's a play on the phrase "One Ass to Risk", and serves as a reminder to LE officers that they are putting their life on the line everytime they leave the station. Therefore, they should consider the danger before taking actions that could get them killed. *

While soldiers and their leaders need to be aware of the dangers involved in a mission and mitigate those within their sphere of control, mission completion comes first. You may not want to assault the well defended machine gun bunker, but if its standing between you and the OBJ with no way around it, by God you do what you have to to get the job done.

* Note: this was how it was explained to me by a cop buddy, so if other LEOs have a different interpretation of the logo, please feel free to educate me on your point of view.
Ah so. I knew of the logo, wasn't sure of the relationship to the topic. Thanks for claifying. I'm not sure I agree, but it doesn't really matter. Another example on those lines would be the "no pursuit" rules for high speed chases? I can imagine the response if I was told to "Break it off, we'll get him another day." LOL.

I think the main point is each organization is different and very little good can come from crossing lines. IMO, the military doesn't do a good job when we are asked to police either. I have first hand knowledge of that little tidbit.

[Guy]

Ah so. I knew of the logo, wasn't sure of the relationship to the topic. Thanks for claifying. I'm not sure I agree, but it doesn't really matter. Another example on those lines would be the "no pursuit" rules for high speed chases? I can imagine the response if I was told to "Break it off, we'll get him another day." LOL.

I think the main point is each organization is different and very little good can come from crossing lines. IMO, the military doesn't do a good job when we are asked to police either. I have first hand knowledge of that little tidbit.

That's exactly what happened to us..."Doc and Rat, you guys stand down"! Meanwhile we have five fuckin guys stranded downtown Baghdad and we are the only two that know where they are at!

"Fuck this...we are going back in to get these guys."

The QRF were being led by LEO. Guess what? We had to slow down three times for them to keep up!

The mindset between the military and LEO are totally different! No slam on the LEO community!

Here is something to think about though...
-When an LEO kills an individual...they automatically get admin leave, counseling and taken off the street for a period of time.

-When the military must seek and destroy(kill)...we get up next day to do it all over again.

Gotta cook, I'll write more later...

[Smokin Joe]

Ah so. I knew of the logo, wasn't sure of the relationship to the topic. Thanks for claifying. I'm not sure I agree, but it doesn't really matter. Another example on those lines would be the "no pursuit" rules for high speed chases? I can imagine the response if I was told to "Break it off, we'll get him another day." LOL.

I think the main point is each organization is different and very little good can come from crossing lines. IMO, the military doesn't do a good job when we are asked to police either. I have first hand knowledge of that little tidbit.


So True, So True. Soliders are good at fighting and killing, not policing and "protecting the peace" where as cops are good at the opposite. In my little neck of the woods we have had 3 very serious situations in the past 2 months.

1st was a barricaded subject holding his girlfriend hostage (This guy just got out of prision, his conviction was for homicide on his BROTHER). Luckly the guys on scene were very good negotiators and talked the guy out (lucky for us that is).

2nd went out as a "Domestic in Progress Shots Fired" it turned out to be a Double homicide, an individual killed his girlfriend and her daughter at point blank range with a 30/30. He takes off into the woods, the local PD SWAT team is called out. They track him (well better yet they walk in the direction our Tactical Tracker told them to go) While the Patrol and Tactical Tracker sit back (b/c our admin said so). They make contact with the guy in the woods, at night, and he ends up killing himself.

3rd was just the other night it goes out as a "Domestic in progress with shots fired." 5 patrol Deputies arrive on scene and they start approaching the house when they hear a shot to the right of there position, they back away from the house and start moving towards the sound of were the shot was fired. They see the guy (he's about 35 yards away) He's order to drop the gun...blah, blah, blah, he points his 30-06 at them. 3 Deputies shoot, 2 shotguns (2 buckshot, and 1 got a second round off which was a Slug) 1 pistol is fired. ZERO hits. The guy makes it back into the house. 2 other Deputies who were on scene had AR-15's (they did not fire). Long story short they call the local PD SWAT team out set up a perimeter, and 3 hours later he surrendors.

Here is the scariest part this last situation my good friend who was on scene said, "Ya, it was pretty scary as soon as I got there, because they had just shot at him, he fled, and it took us a pretty long time to set up a parimeter." :eek: My response, "Why didn't the guys close ground on him and neutralize him?" His response, "Don't know we haven't gotten debriefed yet." This was 4 days after the shooting.

Lessons learned.
1. All subjects had rifles
2. All subjects had fired shots (either during or prior to Patrol arriving)
3. No one closed with the Bad Guy and Neutralized him!

What has been done with the lessoned learned?
NOT A DAMN THING!!!

This mentality is why I completely agree with having the 1st String (and it isn't an LEO team) should be called in to deal with hostages situations!

I think we (as a nation) should take a stance of "If you take a Hostage, we are calling you a terrorist and dealing with you as such!"

Just my .02 cents


Edit: Cause I can't spell or fully proof read

[NousDefionsDoc]

Yeah Joe, I pretty much sucked at LEOing in Panama after JC.

"Who did it?" "Juan." "Well, let's go kick his ass."

I don't have the patience to listen to everybody's side of the story.

[The Reaper]

HOWEVER (you knew there had to be a "However," didn't you?), Colonel Grossman argues (convincingly I think) that LE patrol HAS to be the responders... it takes our SWAT Team a minimum of 45 minutes to muster on an emergency call out. My rough estimate is it would take about 90 minutes for a dedicated SMU from the 10th SFG (assuming purely for the sake of discussion that there was such an SMU), with an element continually on standby, to reach Columbine. The shooting was over in 20 minutes. How long would it take for this military force to reach Cheyenne? Albuquerque?

A Beslam-type school hostage-taking? Heck, yeah, send in the first string, and I don't mean FBI's HRT.

But for a fire team of Mujahideen running through the halls of Elementary School, USA, the best (not perfect) solution is to gun them down like the rabid dogs they are (or "wolves," if you will) ASAP. Can LE do that at our current state of mindset, tactics, skill? I doubt it, and it will be a steep, horrific learning curve when we're caught - and we will be - with our trousers down. (recognize that "mindset, tactics, skill, etc," Razor?)


skibum:

Great post.

You have the facts, I am merely operating off my external observations. I would just add that I will always wonder why the SRO at Columbine exchanged only a few shots before withdrawing to let the scumbags go on their killing spree. I do not have the details, but I have always felt (as a soldier) that if I am the only thing between bad guys with guns and the kids, you will find me dead or having run out of ammo. That is your job, and you owe it to the kids.

Finally, I would point out that 20 minutes after the shooting started, the teacher who bled out was still alive and the kids with him were begging for help. This is unsat, IMHO. The SRO calls in the report and shoots untill he is unable to return fire. If he is still able, he reports and controls the initial reponders till somone better equipped to be in charge shows up. The SRO needs a weapons locker with at least a shotgun and a patrol carbine, and all patrol units should be outfitted the same, raid vests, helmets, masks, and comms packages. You give me 2-4 guys to pull perimeter security and as soon as two more show up, we are stacking up and going in.

I cannot believe that with all of the money being spent on homeland security, and with ammo and training as cheap as it is (certainly cheaper than litigation), that your department has not instituted mandatory CQB training with a crawl, walk, run scenario, culminating in a force on force Sims drill. That would at least ID the non-hackers and give the rest some confidence in their equipment and training.

TS is right, we understand that this (or North Hollywood, etc.) are very rare incidents and you probably do a lot more domestic violence, sexual assaults, and larcenies than full on shootouts.

If the situation lasts till we can get there, a dedicated military unit is the best option. Prior to that you must have an in extremis force to do what they have to and BPT immediately assault if the sit goes bad. That is where the Russians failed as well.

Thanks for sharing.

TR

[skibum]

Why did it go like it did? Training, I guess. At the time (I assume, I joined the dept two years after it happened) the prevailing thought was to treat it like a hostage-taking. Establish a perimeter and wait for SWAT.

I watched it on the news that day and couldn't belive what I was seeing. I couldn't understand why a bunch of cops weren't rushing the place to go kill the bad guys. I remember watching a SWAT stack advancing slowly behind a ballistic shield across a lawn to one of the doors. What were they thinking? That if they snuck up, someone looking out the window couldn't see them? That they were at less risk if they moved across that danger area slowly instesd of tactically?(of course, as a product of their training, that WAS tactical movement. To them)

There is quite a culture of denial here regarding Columbine, it's very difficult to get useful lessons learned. There's also the, "you weren't there, you can't point fingers," mentality. I gotta call BS on that -- Everybody else seems to have learned something from our mistakes. I mean, we don't run football practice on blazing September days while denying our athletes water anymore (when I was in grade school a HS athlete died of dehydration/heat stroke because the coach thought you had to practice without water to get tough).

Yes, there was talk of implementing a CQB program for all deputies about two years ago, the same time frame that we were trying to get on board with "this Homeland Security thing." One of the training deputies, a former Recon guy has been pounding his head against a wall to try getting it started. He has met resistance from all levels of command (except maybe the Sheriff and UnderSheriff). I fire off memos and am told I don't know what I am talking about on a fairly regular basis. The struggle goes on...

[wfraser]

Working on the local SWAT/SRT team one of the main things we have focused on is schools. Why? Schools are the heart of the community....not Wal-Mart, Target, Home Depot. When kids are envolved Americans tend to loose their minds. We run one senario after another on schools and we practice different entries. A school taken hostage is one of the worst things that can happen in a community. One of our questions we ask ourself is do we do a dynamic entry or not? You guys who have done CQC what is your opinon. My thoughts were suprise, speed and violence. The only problem I have is that our target idenfication may be on the slow side. We don't need any SWAT guys popping the wrong kids. Anyone know some drills that could help this. We have a guy from the 10th group coming in October who is suppose to hit on this subject. Is he going to be able to help with this? LATER.

[The Reaper]

Read up on Beslan.

Anything you get that does not involve a WMD is bound to be easier than that.

The failure by the SRO at Columbine to take the fight to the bad guys and the decision to wait for everyone to set up for a Slow and Deliberate clear cost several victims their lives there.

IMHO, better to take a round from a threat than to pop a kid by accident (or to let one bleed out). ID and determine threat level before engaging. Make lots of Sims training events and liberally use no shoot role players when the school is available for training.

TR

[Smokin Joe]

Try to use kids in your Sims scenarios for your no shoot and shoot targets. Las Vegas Metro SWAT did a huge active shooter training a couple of years ago and it encompased an entire junior high and high school to include hundreds of kids, teachers, and administrators. Done in the middle of the day. I have no idea how they accomplished it but you may want to get in touch with them and see how they did it.

[Ryval]

Unlike SGM Haney I don’t think teaching LEO’s “how to kill” is the answer. It would not come off well with the other 99% of their everyday line of work. You would end up with a very aggressive police force and one the “people” would not want “protecting” them.

TS

First off, I know these posts are years old but it's my first time reading them. I am not trying to 'flame' anyone, but some aspects of L.E. was brought up that I feel my .02 might be an informative, or merely entertaining, read.

Secondly, Team Sgt. I would like to respectfully disagree with the above quote. I believe teaching LEO to kill more effectively is something that needs to be done. As one of our instructors put it, "We don't like it, but we better be damn good at it." I, personally, don't see how it would conflict with what we're already learning. Many of us would prefer more often, much better technique, and better, more expereinced instructors. As for the public, few honor us, some respect us, most tollorate us and many hate us. My belief is they'll think what they think, we'll do what we have to do.

On another note, I've read a few posts that either directly state or imply that LEO's do not have a warrior mindset or are not warriors. I'd also like to respectfully disagree. I believe the percentage is MUCH less than military, especially elite groups such as yourselves, however, the percentage is there. While I do not believe the skill level compares, at all, to someone in SF, I do believe the mindset is there. I know LEO's who spend their own money, time and resources to attended training through facilities like Blackwater or Trident Concepts. I see LEO's spend their own money / time to come into work early to train shooting while moving, failure drills, multiple advisaries, fail-safe groupings etc. I have had long conversations with LEO's who go out of their way to study the warriors of old, and modern, to gleen more information feed the ethos. I know LEO's that will respond, alone if that's all there is, to a Beslan style situation. Granted those are usually the same few officers.

For some of the situations listed above involving LEO's failing to neutralize threats, every one of them, IMHO, is a training issue, or lack there of, rather than a mindset issue.

I appoligize if I have offended anyone or stepped on anyone's toes. I have great respect for all the warriors on this forum and did not intend any of the above to be insulting or derogitory.

Thank you for allowing me to post my opinion. I will remove it if requested.

[Trip_Wire (RIP)]

It seems to me that this is an old post that has been brought up again.

In reviewing the past post's I see many views on civilian LE response Vs Military response to a school situation like happened in Russia.

Keep in mind that I'm a former SWAT Team Commander and SF.

Firstly, local law enforcement is going to be the first agency to respond to any incident, within it's jurisdiction. The first responders will normally be patrol units.

Since Columbine, LE tactics and training have been reviewed and changed to avoid many of the mistakes, made at Columbine and other, situations like it. The biggest change is they are not going to standby and wait for SWAT, if killing is taking place.

Most LE Officers are now armed with a patrol carbine and/or rifle. They are trained to form teams and take action where there is need for it. The need would be where the suspects were shooting people, etc.

There would also be a call for a SWAT team to respond. A very few local LE agencies have a full time SWAT team on call. It will take at least an hour or more for the teams arrival and then time to brief them, etc.

Most local SWAT teams have worked with local schools, during their training on hostage situations, floor plans on file, etc. Most are well trained and armed. Most large departments also have a bomb disposal unit that would also respond if explosives were found to be involved in the incident.

In a situation like experienced in Russia, hopefully the responding LE Supervisor first on such a scene, especially where explosives were involved, would take no action unless the hostage takers were shooting hostages, etc. He would form a perimeter and wait for the SWAT team, hostage negotiators and other department resources to arrive to include department's command staff.

The departments command staff would make any decisions on the need for help from other jurisdictions up to federal. (FBI) If the situation was determined to be within the jurisdiction of the FBI (Federal case) the command of the incident would be turned over to the FBI. The FBI would then decide if the HRT and/or Military units would respond and how they would be used. This of course all takes many hours of vital time in a case like the Russian incident.

What is the nearest Delta unit to say Seattle? IMHO, Delta is the only military unit, the should handle an incident like the Russian one. Yes, we have the 1st SFGA here in the area as well as the 2nd Ranger BN; however, I doubt on short notice in particular, that they have people, training and equipment on hand that would allow them to respond and handle a situation like the Russian school.

The bottom line? IMHO, like it or not the local LE is going to have to handle the brunt of any such incident, especially where the hostage takers are killing people! This may result in heavy losses in both responding LE and hostages, if they take immeadite action. This would be true of any group taking immeadite action.

At least one or more LE agency in each State, should have a SWAT team that have the training and equipment, to handle a situation like we are talking about. They should have the capability to handle the situation, until Federal help, of any kind if needed arrives.

The office of Homeland security should provide local LE with funding, training and equipment to such local teams, perhaps even certifying the teams, much like the FBI does with individual bomb technicians now.

There is no doubt in my mind that Delta would be the best answer to a situation like they had in Russia. The fact is; however, that in the USA it's going to be local LE that responds to any incident. :munchin

[Team Sergeant]

First off, I know these posts are years old but it's my first time reading them. I am not trying to 'flame' anyone, but some aspects of L.E. was brought up that I feel my .02 might be an informative, or merely entertaining, read.

Secondly, Team Sgt. I would like to respectfully disagree with the above quote. I believe teaching LEO to kill more effectively is something that needs to be done. As one of our instructors put it, "We don't like it, but we better be damn good at it." I, personally, don't see how it would conflict with what we're already learning. Many of us would prefer more often, much better technique, and better, more expereinced instructors. As for the public, few honor us, some respect us, most tollorate us and many hate us. My belief is they'll think what they think, we'll do what we have to do.

On another note, I've read a few posts that either directly state or imply that LEO's do not have a warrior mindset or are not warriors. I'd also like to respectfully disagree. I believe the percentage is MUCH less than military, especially elite groups such as yourselves, however, the percentage is there. While I do not believe the skill level compares, at all, to someone in SF, I do believe the mindset is there. I know LEO's who spend their own money, time and resources to attended training through facilities like Blackwater or Trident Concepts. I see LEO's spend their own money / time to come into work early to train shooting while moving, failure drills, multiple advisaries, fail-safe groupings etc. I have had long conversations with LEO's who go out of their way to study the warriors of old, and modern, to gleen more information feed the ethos. I know LEO's that will respond, alone if that's all there is, to a Beslan style situation. Granted those are usually the same few officers.

For some of the situations listed above involving LEO's failing to neutralize threats, every one of them, IMHO, is a training issue, or lack there of, rather than a mindset issue.

I appoligize if I have offended anyone or stepped on anyone's toes. I have great respect for all the warriors on this forum and did not intend any of the above to be insulting or derogitory.

Thank you for allowing me to post my opinion. I will remove it if requested.

You lost me right there with blackwater.....training people to shoot unarmed civilinas.......sorry charlie, we don't shoot dozens of unarmed civilians and we don't train people to do so.

You need to read more before you start posting in regards to LEO's and Special Operations. We are not the same animal, we will never be the same and we have two different jobs.

Unless you've been trained for war, by warriors, you are not a warrior, period. If you think by having some former felon cop blowing smoke up your ass that you are in fact a warrior" fine, so be it, let me know when you're ready to infiltrate the Tora Bora area and we'll hook you up with 300rds of ammo, one week of rations, six other guys and your mission will be to locate and engage some 50-300 terrorists.

Did I include the fact that if you are spotted you will be engaged (this is a "denied" area) and if engaged during daylight hours you and your team are on their own until dark as we're not going to risk platforms and people to get your ass out of hot water until night fall. Oh, you can surrender to the enemy but you might have forgotten that there is a bounty on your head because you and your Special Operations buddies have already killed hundreds of terrorists, face to face and their kinda pissed so after they torture you they will then send a picture your severed head, with your penis in your mouth to the local media for the world to see.

And freddy, you're there for a year so consider this mission time and time again over the next few years.

Spare me your "killing" and "warrior" mindset.


Team Sergeant

[Trip_Wire (RIP)]

TS:

I agree with you that the role of LE and Special Operations soldiers on active duty are different.

That said, most LE SWAT teams have many former SEALs, Special Forces, Rangers and other Special Operations people on them.

As the SWAT supervisor of my former SWAT team, I had control of who was picked for the team.

I always looked for and picked former Special Operations people first, followed by former Marines, Army Infantry types and last Navy. (Prior military service, was important thing to me.) Combat experience was an added bonus as well.

I think most LE SWAT supervisors try to pick the same type of people that I have outlined as well. On my team, I did have former SF, SEALs, Rangers and USMC Recon. Some were retired from the service with many years of experience in their special Operations units, most with combat experience in various wars, etc.

As of just lately one of the members of my former SWAT team is serving in Iraq, as a SEAL Officer, having been called up in the Navy reserve. I think he has had tours of duty both in Afghanistan and Iraq prior to this tour. There are also many other National Guard (19th SFGA) and Reserve people on the team, that have been called to active duty and served in combat in both places.

So, there is in a lot of cases, fresh combat experience as well as expertise in Special Operations skills within many LE SWAT Teams.

There are Warriors on some, if not most of LE SWAT teams! :munchin

[Team Sergeant]

TS:

I agree with you that the role of LE and Special Operations soldiers on active duty are different.

That said, most LE SWAT teams have many former SEALs, Special Forces, Rangers and other Special Operations people on them.

As the SWAT supervisor of my former SWAT team, I had control of who was picked for the team.

I always looked for and picked former Special Operations people first, followed by former Marines, Army Infantry types and last Navy. (Prior military service, was important thing to me.) Combat experience was an added bonus as well.

I think most LE SWAT supervisors try to pick the same type of people that I have outlined as well. On my team, I did have former SF, SEALs, Rangers and USMC Recon. Some were retired from the service with many years of experience in their special Operations units, most with combat experience in various wars, etc.

As of just lately one of the members of my former SWAT team is serving in Iraq, as a SEAL Officer, having been called up in the Navy reserve. I think he has had tours of duty both in Afghanistan and Iraq prior to this tour. There are also many other National Guard (19th SFGA) and Reserve people on the team, that have been called to active duty and served in combat in both places.

So, there is in a lot of cases, fresh combat experience as well as expertise in Special Operations skills within many LE SWAT Teams.

There are Warriors on some, if not most of LE SWAT teams!


I agree with you, but for those that have only attended a "blackwater" two week course conferring a title of warrior or establishing a warrior mindset is not going to happen.:rolleyes:

(I'm not talking about those that have served as a "real" warrior and decided to became an LEO..... :D)

I figured next thing Ryval was going to tell me is that he attended the "Surefire Institute" taught by "Special Operations TRAINER" doug martin and is now a "master flashlight fighter":rolleyes:

Did I mention Ambush Master and I ran into Paul Howe at Shot Show? Paul gave me a "new" M-4 rear sight he's been working on.....;)

Ryval, go and take a class from Paul Howe and tell us how it compares to the blackwater training....


TS

[Ryval]

Team Sgt. I appoligize. I did not mean to offend anyone and I am sorry that I have.
(Open mouth, insert foot, chew well).

[Trip_Wire (RIP)]

TS:

Quite right TS, I agree such courses do not make a Warrior or Special Ops., operator. I was just sort of trying to defend those LE people, particularly SWAT team members and the LE first responders, who are going to be the first to respond to such situations here in the USA and have to deal with what they find there.

Sooner or later, I'm pretty sure we will have a major incident from the terrorists. Perhaps at a school; however, IMHO it's more likely to occur at a large shopping mall, large airport or large office building in a major city like New York, Los Angeles or Chicago.

Actually, I'm surprised that we haven't seen the use of suicide bombers here in the USA. There are plenty of excellent targets for them here. Here in Seattle a car bombing on a ferry or one of our two floating bridges at the rush hour, would be a real disaster.

[Team Sergeant]

Sooner or later, I'm pretty sure we will have a major incident from the terrorists. Perhaps at a school; however, IMHO it's more likely to occur at a large shopping mall, large airport or large office building in a major city like New York, Los Angeles or Chicago.



I agree and then (and only then) will the LEO's want our method of dealing with terrorists....;) until then, go see that big coffee drinking 350 lb range sergeant thats been teaching the same shooting style for the last 44 years......

Call me when you've had enough... or go and take Paul Howe's or Dave Harringtons classes.;)

TS

[Trip_Wire (RIP)]

I agree and then (and only then) will the LEO's want our method of dealing with terrorists....;) until then, go see that big coffee drinking 350 lb range sergeant thats been teaching the same shooting style for the last 44 years......

Call me when you've had enough... or go and take Paul Howe's or Dave Harringtons classes.;)

TS


There you go TS, painting all LEO's with the same brush. Yes, I'm sure the the LEO range Sgt. you describe exists somewhere in this Country.

On the other hand, there are many departments that practice very good training and tactics and have the appropriate modern firearms training in place. Many use the same civilian people who train SEALs and Delta people in CQC.

Don't you think that the people whom I mentioned in my last message, SEALs, SF people and others who have been called to active duty and served in combat, etc. from their LE jobs are not going to know how to deal with terrorists?

I'll admit that many LE departments in the US, fit into what you describe; however, there are many that don't. Some might just surprise you, with their proficiency in both firearms training and tactics to deal with terrorist activities. Of course any type of basic firearms training, even from "a big coffee drinking 350 lb range sergeant thats been teaching the same shooting style for the last 44 years......" is better then no training! :D

I wasn't really impressed with the level of firearms training I got in the military, especially the pistol training. As well as annual military qualification courses.

Of course, both the armed forces and LE suffer from the PC view of a lot of the people at the higher levels and the media. A good example is the attempt to court-martial some SF people for killing a terrorist in the 'Stan.

IMHO they did a great job. I have always been of the mind that taking terrorist prisoners, except for Intel, is the wrong thing to do. They are not going to change their goals and will only come back to be a problem for you again, one way or the other.


I think both the SAS and GSG-9 have the right idea on dealing with terrorists. :D

[Team Sergeant]

There you go TS, painting all LEO's with the same brush. Yes, I'm sure the the LEO range Sgt. you describe exists somewhere in this Country.

On the other hand, there are many departments that practice very good training and tactics and have the appropriate modern firearms training in place. Many use the same civilian people who train SEALs and Delta people in CQC.

Don't you think that the people whom I mentioned in my last message, SEALs, SF people and others who have been called to active duty and served in combat, etc. from their LE jobs are not going to know how to deal with terrorists?

I'll admit that many LE departments in the US, fit into what you describe; however, there are many that don't. Some might just surprise you, with their proficiency in both firearms training and tactics to deal with terrorist activities. Of course any type of basic firearms training, even from "a big coffee drinking 350 lb range sergeant thats been teaching the same shooting style for the last 44 years......" is better then no training! :D

I wasn't really impressed with the level of firearms training I got in the military, especially the pistol training. As well as annual military qualification courses.

Of course, both the armed forces and LE suffer from the PC view of a lot of the people at the higher levels and the media. A good example is the attempt to court-martial some SF people for killing a terrorist in the 'Stan.

IMHO they did a great job. I have always been of the mind that taking terrorist prisoners, except for Intel, is the wrong thing to do. They are not going to change their goals and will only come back to be a problem for you again, one way or the other.


I think both the SAS and GSG-9 have the right idea on dealing with terrorists. :D

Actually I've seen that fat range Sgt, teaching 40 y/o techniques at more than one LEO range.

Can the SF'ers and SEALS deal with terrorists, I doubt it with current LEO ROE.

We've already seen first hand what two bank robbers can do to 100 of Americas finest, the LAPD. I've no doubt what 5-10 armed terrorists will do if and when it happens, no doubt at all.

TS

[The Reaper]

First off, I know these posts are years old but it's my first time reading them. I am not trying to 'flame' anyone, but some aspects of L.E. was brought up that I feel my .02 might be an informative, or merely entertaining, read.

Secondly, Team Sgt. I would like to respectfully disagree with the above quote. I believe teaching LEO to kill more effectively is something that needs to be done. As one of our instructors put it, "We don't like it, but we better be damn good at it." I, personally, don't see how it would conflict with what we're already learning. Many of us would prefer more often, much better technique, and better, more expereinced instructors. As for the public, few honor us, some respect us, most tollorate us and many hate us. My belief is they'll think what they think, we'll do what we have to do.

On another note, I've read a few posts that either directly state or imply that LEO's do not have a warrior mindset or are not warriors. I'd also like to respectfully disagree. I believe the percentage is MUCH less than military, especially elite groups such as yourselves, however, the percentage is there. While I do not believe the skill level compares, at all, to someone in SF, I do believe the mindset is there. I know LEO's who spend their own money, time and resources to attended training through facilities like Blackwater or Trident Concepts. I see LEO's spend their own money / time to come into work early to train shooting while moving, failure drills, multiple advisaries, fail-safe groupings etc. I have had long conversations with LEO's who go out of their way to study the warriors of old, and modern, to gleen more information feed the ethos. I know LEO's that will respond, alone if that's all there is, to a Beslan style situation. Granted those are usually the same few officers.

For some of the situations listed above involving LEO's failing to neutralize threats, every one of them, IMHO, is a training issue, or lack there of, rather than a mindset issue.

I appoligize if I have offended anyone or stepped on anyone's toes. I have great respect for all the warriors on this forum and did not intend any of the above to be insulting or derogitory.

Thank you for allowing me to post my opinion. I will remove it if requested.


Hey, just out of curiosity, what did the "warrior" SRO at Columbine do when confronted by two punks with a few small arms and no formal training?

TR

[Trip_Wire (RIP)]

TS:

Quote:

"Actually I've seen that fat range Sgt, teaching 40 y/o techniques at more than one LEO range.

Can the SF'ers and SEALS deal with terrorists, I doubt it with current LEO ROE.

We've already seen first hand what two bank robbers can do to 100 of Americas finest, the LAPD. I've no doubt what 5-10 armed terrorists will do if and when it happens, no doubt at all.

TS"

Yes, I have seen them too! As I said, don't judge all LE agencies by the ones you happen to see, with such people.

As for the currant LEO ROE, I don't know that their is a LEO standard set of ROE's for terrorists. They would be handled just like any armed hostage taker or takers, at least on first contact.

As for ROE's, apparently there are some problems in this area for Special Operations people as well. (The case that I mentioned, as well as the on going MARSOC case.

As for the LAPD case, yes we all saw that; however, most departments nation wide, to include LAPD have reviewed that incident and have better prepared LEO's for such incidents. Most departments LEO's are now allowed to carry a carbine or rifle in their patrol vehicle, for that type of incident. BTW: I think the LAPD officers involved in that incident showed extreme bravery under the circumstances.

As for TR's remarks on the LEO's in-action at 'Columbine.' Yes, we all saw that as well. Again, this incident was reviewed and the mistakes noted. This in-action, really stemmed from the SOP that most departments had at the time, especially those with SWAT teams.

The responding units were supposed to form a perimeter and contain the incident, until SWAT arrived to make an entry. The idea was that most individual patrol officers were not equipped or trained to make dynamic entries, etc. Along with an entry by individual LEO's could cause the hostage taker to harm a hostage, as well as the danger to that individual LEO.

(IMHO, if I would have been the responding officer and the hostage taker was shooting hostages, I would have entered and taken action. This may have resulted in a reprimand; however, a few more hostages might still be here.) ;)

Any way, as in the LAPD case, most all LE Departments, have adjusted their SOPs and now first responders (Supervisor or a senior officer) will form teams out of those that respond make an entry and take care of the problem. They will also have the access to so called patrol carbines and/or rifles.

I hope that in all of my discussion here on this subject, that the point that I'm really trying to bring out, is that here in the USA any hostage situation is going to be responded to by local LE. If it is in their jurisdiction, it will be handled by them until such time that is decided it's a federal case, etc. :munchin

BTW: I also wonder, given the operational tempo of Special Operations units in the GWOT, (Delta in particular,) if they are prepared to respond, with what the need in a timely manner, to such an incident (Russian school) here in CONUS? How many hours would it take?

Who do you think is going to be there handling the ongoing situation, until HRT or the military (Delta) arrives. My read is, first local LE w/SWAT Team, (if determined its a Federal case,) the local FBI and local FBI SWAT Team, followed by HRT and/or the needed military unit.

[lath_hoy]

I think a lot of you guys have some great concepts, but I think its safe to say that the reality of this will be totally different. I imagine that its just a matter of time until unsatifactory events that Haney perscribes to become real. Imagine this: 10-20 individuals that have no fear in death or in life, occupying a school with small children. LEO's called in, feet are dragged bc they want to wear down the captors for a dynamic entry or what have you. End result demads weren't met or they didn't have them at all and a large portion of 4-11 yearsolds are now casualties. LEO's do an about face, and as bad as they don't want to admit it they do bc political careers are on the line, and they state that they are incapable of dealing with this type of circumstance. So then its turned over to the military and composed of highly skilled/motivated qualified guys. They get a mission and they succeed in their mission. Yet six 5 yearolds get killed by bad guys. The public's perception isn't going to see that out of the 400 students that were daisy chained only 6 were killed. They're going to focus on the media and the six and piss an moan about the # 6 being too high.Hey the way society is to day one would be too much, so 6 translates to heads rolling. Then Dianne Finstein and Ted Kennedy are going to mandate that their cohort Waxman should launch an oversight investigation into the practices of these individuals and their unit. They will thus become inflexible and look at the team members as some sort of super hero’s or jedi’s that are capable of doing non mortal things. So when some thing bad does happen they will hold them accountable and a de-escalation policy would be legislated and the group would have a black eye. Heck even Kathleen Wilder (***ping! ping! on google***) of her female GB fame would be present on news sources and become an analyst for Wolfblitzer and Jane Fonda could fill the celebrity commentary. Wow if that took place just think how many front page articles the New York Times would print. I don't think were ready for that. Until then the waiting game will proceed. :munchin
Bad guys: 0
Good guys: 0

Cheers all.

[Razor]

Well aren't you just a font of joy, happiness and optimism?

[ChandlerSniper]

You lost me right there with blackwater.....training people to shoot unarmed civilinas.......sorry charlie, we don't shoot dozens of unarmed civilians and we don't train people to do so.

You need to read more before you start posting in regards to LEO's and Special Operations. We are not the same animal, we will never be the same and we have two different jobs.

Unless you've been trained for war, by warriors, you are not a warrior, period. If you think by having some former felon cop blowing smoke up your ass that you are in fact a warrior" fine, so be it, let me know when you're ready to infiltrate the Tora Bora area and we'll hook you up with 300rds of ammo, one week of rations, six other guys and your mission will be to locate and engage some 50-300 terrorists.

Did I include the fact that if you are spotted you will be engaged (this is a "denied" area) and if engaged during daylight hours you and your team are on their own until dark as we're not going to risk platforms and people to get your ass out of hot water until night fall. Oh, you can surrender to the enemy but you might have forgotten that there is a bounty on your head because you and your Special Operations buddies have already killed hundreds of terrorists, face to face and their kinda pissed so after they torture you they will then send a picture your severed head, with your penis in your mouth to the local media for the world to see.

And freddy, you're there for a year so consider this mission time and time again over the next few years.

Spare me your "killing" and "warrior" mindset.


Team Sergeant

Geesh TS.. tell us how you really feel.

We actually got a glimpse into this situation a couple years ago with 3 teams that were proficient at serving warrants and barricades. We put them into a situation that they were unfamiliar with and you remember how that turned out don`t ya.. and we were a bunch of "nobodys". God forbid this ever happens here cuz it`s gonna be rough.

CS

[Team Sergeant]

Geesh TS.. tell us how you really feel.

We actually got a glimpse into this situation a couple years ago with 3 teams that were proficient at serving warrants and barricades. We put them into a situation that they were unfamiliar with and you remember how that turned out don`t ya.. and we were a bunch of "nobodys". God forbid this ever happens here cuz it`s gonna be rough.
CS

The day is approaching when the LEO's of this country will learn what some in the military already know. (The Russians and the Israelis understand the situation quite well.)

TS

[ChandlerSniper]

I know what your saying Sir. Agree 100%

I try to convey that fact to my work associates as well, and make them actually think about who it is thats actually going to try and hit us. It just doesn`t sink in with some.

CS

[The Canadian]

In read mode only for the most part. Just putting in my 2 cents to perhaps bring another way of looking at this thread to others.

It doesn't matter what in life you are talking about there will be good and bad in everything. There can be great teachers and poor teachers, so if you want to break it down you can and talk about just the great teachers or just the poor teachers. Teachers, LEO or any other professional people that are doing the great job, like TripWire, are always wanting to talk about the good. TS has focused on the fat range sergeant which is the bad. If you are doing a great job, continue to do so and enjoy your victory quietly. IMO allow the weak components of your profession be in the lime light, that is the best way to get things fixed.

[Trip_Wire (RIP)]

I had decided to keep out of this discussion, as I thought I had made my point(s) clear; however, I see now that I didn't.

The TS is right in that the military and in particular Special Operations units have their job(s) and procedures and civilian law enforcement have theirs. As for the use of the word 'Warrior,' IMHO I don't think it only applies to soldiers. It's really a state of mind.

Training in both the military and law enforcement can't be judged on the view of one instructor nor that particular time and place one views it. We have good instructors and good training as well as poor instructors and poor training in both places. I'm sure we all can pull up tales of poor training and or instructors.

Law enforcement, have no desire to replace the militaries role, in operations normally handled under their jurisdiction. They (LE) were not designed to fight wars or conduct military special operations. (No matter what some LAPD SWAT (ex-Marine) says.) Yeah, NYPD is larger and has more manpower than some Countries Armies ‚ So what, I doubt that they would win any wars!

Most large department SWAT teams (Or whatever they call them.) are trained and equipped to do the jobs they were created to handle. Most are proficient at those jobs. Their level of training in the needed tactics, marksmanship and weapons skills exceeds the average LEOs training in these areas. The need for such training and skills was why the were developed.

The point that I was trying to make in this thread seems to have been overlooked. This started out as a question of what happens, etc. on a school hostage situation like they had in Russia.

My point was, that under the existing laws here in the USA, the first responders to any hostage situation is going to be the local LE jurisdiction that covers that area. They will find out first hand what the situation is at that scene. Until they do, its unclear what is happening there or what type of incident is happening there.

They will have to contain that situation and deal with it, with the resources they have. If while containing the situation, hostages started to be killed, the LE resources on hand may have to take action. Hopefully a SWAT team or combined SWAT teams from other nearby or State level would add to the manpower. Not the best situation, for a real Russian hostage situation; however, they would be left with little choice.

If no hostage killing was taking place, they would keep the area contained until it is was decided that it was a Federal case and under Federal jurisdiction. In which case the Fed's take over. They (Feds) will than decide who will be used and/or called to deal with the situation. Hopefully, this would result in using the military unit that is needed, with both local, federal LE providing containment.

Yes, in a Russian type of situation, LE maybe in for a shock and their may well be poor tactics, etc used, etc. To prevent this I would hope that LE Departments LE SWAT teams would pre-plan for such cases, using the Russian situation as a bases for that training and develope tactics and combined training with other nearby jurisdictions as well as the Feds to contain such a situation!

The way I see it, like it or not the first responders will be LEOs! :munchin

[mdb23]

Hey, just out of curiosity, what did the "warrior" SRO at Columbine do when confronted by two punks with a few small arms and no formal training?

TR

There is a reason that certain people gravitate toward the SRO job..... just like there are reasons that people enlist as a quartermaster or heating and cooling tech in the USAF rather than as an 18x. Not everyone on a PD, nor everyone in the Armed Forces, is a hard charger. At my PD, the people who are SRO's or DARE Officers are what we call "retired on duty".... take it for what it is worth.

That being said, would I like it if Delta were able to handle all domestic terror incidents? Sure. Why the hell not. It isn't a pissing contest for me, and I would loooooove to see the people best trained for the job there to handle it.

But, according to the data that we have compiled, the shooting sprees are lasting less than 20 minutes.... from beginning to end, 20 minutes. Can you get CAG or DevGru to my AO, suited up, and ready to go in under 20 minutes? If not, then it seems pointless to argue this issue.

Are cops the best asset for handling this situation? Hell no. But we may be all you have. Fortunately, we are much better trained, better armed, and better educated than we were 15 years ago. Our active shooter training is pretty thorough, utilizes real locations, and force on force training. Could it be better? Sure, but it's light years ahead of what was being done in the 1990s.

So, in closing, we are not the best people for the job... but in all probability, we are going to be the only people there in time to make a difference.

[The Reaper]

Not looking to start a pissing contest, and I fully understand your comments about the quality of the talent in those positions.

Having said that, as a warrior, I think that the job of the SRO in the event of an active shooter is to call in the SITREP, defend the students to the last round and then go down swinging.

I do not want anyone who does not believe that to be securing the schools of my kids. In fact, that should be part of the requirements and inbrief for an SRO.

Firing a few rounds and abandoning your post (and kids) to run from a couple of untrained punks is cowardice.

There, I said it.

As far as the national players, I think that is why the FBI HRT added regional teams, but you could still be the only people on the ground for several long hours. Do not assume that because the punk kids who have attacked schools so far represent the numbers, weapons, skill level, and expected duration of future threats or contacts. LE needs to plan for multiple contingencies, and worst case scenarios.

TR

[mdb23]

Not looking to start a pissing contest, and I fully understand your comments about the quality of the talent in those positions.

Having said that, as a warrior, I think that the job of the SRO in the event of an active shooter is to call in the SITREP, defend the students to the last round and then go down swinging.

I do not want anyone who does not believe that to be securing the schools of my kids. In fact, that should be part of the requirements and inbrief for an SRO.

Firing a few rounds and abandoning your post (and kids) to run from a couple of untrained punks is cowardice.

There, I said it.

TR

I agree with you 110%. No arguments whatsoever.

My only point was that we shouldn't all be judged by what a DARE cop does or doesn't do.... At my PD, we have full time traditional SWAT, a separate SWAT element that does nothing but high risk search warrants, Fugitive Apprehension Units, Gang, Undercovers, Proactive patrols, etc....... and then we have full time DARE, GREAT, PAL, blah, blah, blah....

Guess where the type "A" personalities end up? It isn't in DARE. LOL

As a matter of fact, if you look at a DARE roster, it is often a list of "never been anywhere, never done anything, laziest mf'ers" from the PD. It is pathetic that they still have a job.

I make no excuses for them, and agree with your points.... I only ask that all LE not be cast into their catogory.

[mdb23]

As far as the national players, I think that is why the FBI HRT added regional teams, but you could still be the only people on the ground for several long hours. Do not assume that because the punk kids who have attacked schools so far represent the numbers, weapons, skill level, and expected duration of future threats or contacts. LE needs to plan for multiple contingencies, and worst case scenarios.

TR

Understood, but there are only 9 regional teams (to my knowledge), and I know of many, many, many people who are very much unimpressed with their capabilities.... opinions may vary.

Like you said, not every incident is going to be a Columbine.... and we know that. We are trying our best to incorporate the latest intel, techniques, and strategies into our training. We are training in schools, abandoned hospitals, using force on force, etc....

Look, we know we aren't the "A" team when it comes to this stuff, and it is going to be OUR kids and families in these schools if something like this happens. My only point in getting involved in this thread was to say that most all of us would rather have you guys handling these situations, but we also know that, due to time and distance, it is most likely going to fall on us.

Our main job isn't to be a CT force, and we know it..... but we are doing to best that we can to train for this eventuality. I just don't see how 5 pages of people telling us that we "are no Delta, don't have the training, mindset, experience, etc, that the military does" is productive..... we already know that...... but we also know that we are going to be the first, and probably only, people there.

I once heard someone at a class ask, "What is the best SWAT unit in the country?"

The answer? Whichever one can get their asses there in time to make a difference. It doesn't matter how good LA, NY, or Dallas are, because they are in NY, LA, and Dallas........ For most of the active shooter situations that we have seen, the same can be said for Delta and DevGru.

[Team Sergeant]

The answer? Whichever one can get their asses there in time to make a difference. It doesn't matter how good LA, NY, or Dallas are, because they are in NY, LA, and Dallas........ For most of the active shooter situations that we have seen, the same can be said for Delta and DevGru.

You have no idea of what you are talking about.

The president of the United States is not going unleash the dogs of war for some moron kids shooting up a school, period. The president didn't unleash the dogs of war for WACO either, wonder why? They were not terrorists holding those people.

Now as an LEO riddle me this, ever wonder WHY the authorities will NOT release the documents relating to the Columbine shooting????

If what I've been told is true a few more need to go to jail or at least be relieved of duty.

TS

[mdb23]

You have no idea of what you are talking about.

The president of the United States is not going unleash the dogs of war for some moron kids shooting up a school, period. The president didn't unleash the dogs of war for WACO either, wonder why? They were not terrorists holding those people.

Now as an LEO riddle me this, ever wonder WHY the authorities will NOT release the documents relating to the Columbine shooting????

If what I've been told is true a few more need to go to jail or at least be relieved of duty.

TS

I don't know what I'm talking about in regard to what? I know the pres isn't going to cut the "dogs of war" loose on every situation.... my point was, depending on the actions/methods of the terrorists, there may not be time for the dogs of war to even get their boots on before it is over and done with.

If one, five, or ten people go into a school, shopping mall, or daycare and begin actively shooting children, we (Local LE) are the only ones that are close enough to intervene. By the time Tier One assets are called out, it is too late. It doesn't matter if the shooters are sexually repressed HS kids or Pakistani born, Koran memorizing zealots.... it would be over (one way or another) before you could get there.

Was Columbine a clusterf#ck? From what I know, yes. Have we (LE) learned from that as a community and changed damned near everything from the ground up? Yup. Columbine was a first for us (LE), and we have had to adjust and adapt....

If we have some type of Russian Elementary school hostage scenario here in the US, then hell yes, call in the big dogs. Like I said earlier, I don't think you will get any objections from the LE crowd. We'll hold the perimeter and you guys handle it. I am all for it. ..... but if there is active shooting going on, there isn't time to wait.

[x-factor]

I don't have a dog in the LE vs CT fight, but I think there's another question that bears asking.

Lets say we were to enact TS's plan and raise three domestic CT elements: one on the East Coast, one of the West Coast, and one in the Midwest.

(For what its worth (and TS's opinion is certainly more expert than mine), I think three is a pretty conservative estimate for country-wide coverage thats responsive on the kinds of timelines we're talking about. I think you'd need at least another one specifically devoted to the Philly-NYC-Boston "megacity," but thats not really important to my question.)

Point being, with three standing units you're pulling a fair number highly qualified operators (at least 100 by my count) plus all the specialized support elements (intel, air, training, etc) and the funding that goes with them out of the offensive side of the war on terror. Thats a lot of resources for a threat that may never come to pass and for one that, even if it does, may still have come and gone before these elements arrive on scene to take the handoff from local LE.

Plus, if you publicize the capability, which you're going to have to do to get the legislation and funding for it you're giving away a lot of your benefit. Its the kind of thing that can be effectively counter-planned by an aggressor who knows what he's doing.

So my question is...even if we all agreed that a standing domestic CT unit is the ideal solution, is it a realistic one given resource constraints? Would you get a better return on your investment by raising these units or by beefing up overseas CT efforts?

[CoLawman]

Now as an LEO riddle me this, ever wonder WHY the authorities will NOT release the documents relating to the Columbine shooting????

If what I've been told is true a few more need to go to jail or at least be relieved of duty.

TS[/QUOTE]

The answer to your riddle can be found in an old Chinese Proverb.
What was so yesterday, may not be so today.

The entire investigation, including tapes, maps, photos, diaries, autopsy reports are all available for viewing.

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2000/columbine.cd/frameset.exclude.html

[CoLawman]

[QUOTE=The Reaper;200921]Not looking to start a pissing contest, and I fully understand your comments about the quality of the talent in those positions.

Having said that, as a warrior, I think that the job of the SRO in the event of an active shooter is to call in the SITREP, defend the students to the last round and then go down swinging.

I do not want anyone who does not believe that to be securing the schools of my kids. In fact, that should be part of the requirements and inbrief for an SRO.

Firing a few rounds and abandoning your post (and kids) to run from a couple of untrained punks is cowardice.

There, I said it.

I intentionally avoid these "my dad can beat up your dad" threads as they always get me in trouble. I want so badly to respond, but just bite my lip. I do need to make an important clarification. The SRO neither fled, nor did he behave cowardly. Deputy Gardner performed as a warrior should.

[Team Sergeant]

There is no similarity between the mission of the military and the task of the federal, state or local LE.

There is no LE vs. military just as there is no techniques, tactics or procedures, that are similar, none.

And yeah, I get a bit irritated when anyone brings up LE and military in the same paragraph.

I’ve also offered a bit of advice to the LE community as far as response to a critical situation, by placing a few federal, specially trained, teams every few hundred miles apart spread out across the United States. (Sort of what the US military does by having bases around the world, shortens our response time to any critical situation) It ain’t going to happen, we have too many Fed, state and local LE agencies that don’t work together in that area. Now if you want to question that last statement look no further than WACO. After the initial screw-up the FBI, IMO, should have taken over the situation and they did absolutely nothing.

CoLawman, I have my sources, you have yours, mine tell me the whole story was not told. I will go and have another look at all the evidence complied; I’m as not close-minded as some would think.

As to the original context of this thread, I guess ranger haney was incorrect.

TS

[Guy]

There is no LE vs. military just as there is no techniques, tactics or procedures, that are similar, none.

And yeah, I get a bit irritated when anyone brings up LE and military in the same paragraph.

TS

Stay safe.

[mdb23]

1. There is no similarity between the mission of the military and the task of the federal, state or local LE.

2. There is no LE vs. military just as there is no techniques, tactics or procedures, that are similar, none.

3. And yeah, I get a bit irritated when anyone brings up LE and military in the same paragraph.

4. I’ve also offered a bit of advice to the LE community as far as response to a critical situation, by placing a few federal, specially trained, teams every few hundred miles apart spread out across the United States. (Sort of what the US military does by having bases around the world, shortens our response time to any critical situation)

5. It ain’t going to happen, we have too many Fed, state and local LE agencies that don’t work together in that area.


1. Agreed. But, once again, I can't see where anyone was arguing that there was.

2. I agree that there is no LE versus military (at least not from this end), but disagree with the latter part of your statement. There are a lot of guys on our tactical teams that were recently part of your teams. They bring with them them the techniques, tactics, etc that they leaned in SF, USMC Force Recon, NSW, etc. and incorporate them (when applicable) to the LE tactical mission. We all learn from that. There is a sharing of information that goes on, and stuff does "trickle down" to us. Doesn't mean our mission is the same, but you might be surprised at how many of "your" techniques for everything from clearing a room to taking down a bus or train ends up in "our" hands.

3. That's pretty apparent, but I have yet to figure out why. Nobody has said the LE is as good at this stuff as military CT units (we aren't), that we can do it better (we can't), or that we even want the freaking mission..... I actually said the exact opposite. However, we may be all that you have, depending on how fast everything goes down.

4. I agree. It's a great idea, but......

5. .... if this is true, then what's the point of talking about it?

Like I said, we know where we stand on this stuff, and are trying to get up to speed as quickly as possible. You can keep bringing up WACO, North Hollywood, and Columbine, but the fact remains that each of those instances was a "first" for us (LE), and we have attempted to adapt and learn from these lessons. A lot changes in 15 years.

We are much better armed and trained now. In North Hollywood, you had coppers with revolvers and 9mm handguns pitted against heavily armored (from head to toe) gunmen wielding high powered, fully automatic rifles with armor piercing rounds.... we learned from that, and now have patrol rifles of our own.

We learned that we can no longer "stage" at an incident like we did at Columbine, and our new training and techniques reflect that. 15 years ago, nobody was doing regular, dedicated force on force training in schools, hospitals, etc.... depts weren't obtaining maps, schematics, etc of all likely targets and setting up emergency action plans before shit happens...there wasn't inter agency coordination like there is now...none of this was in place at the time of Columbine. Now, at most large departments, it is routine business...

I have never claimed to be anything more than what I am.... we aren't Delta, DevGru, SAS, GSG9, etc..... we understand that... but not all of us are 400 pound range instructors, either. We are cops. We would prefer that you guys handle it, but you are too far away. Telling us how inferior we are isn't going to prove or help anything.

Different missions, but same team here guys..... we all want the kids to come home safe and the wives to be happy.

[Trip_Wire (RIP)]

mdb23:

I agree with what you had to say 100% I thought I said pretty much the same thing a couple of times; however, this was right to the point! :D

[CoLawman]

My favorite team is not the Broncos it is our United States Military. If I walked into a room full of celebs and SF.....I would want to spend time with America's true role models and heroes, America's warriors.

I recall a trip to Kaiserslautern as a young MP (1974). I saw two guys wearing the Green Beret, in the flesh! I had never seen one before! I can assure you I was completely star struck.

The Avalanche is not my favorite team. They are not deserving of adoration, but my other heroes are. The men and women manning the ramparts in our cities and counties. Even though I wear a uniform, I am in awe of those individuals who step up to serve in law enforcement.

Cops, soldiers, marines, and others in uniform are what makes America great. WE are the patriots. WE are select and elite. WE serve our country... BY CHOICE.

Columbine was law enforcement's hedgerows. SWAT is a concept that is a couple of decades old and is still evolving. The military has had centuries to perfect their trade.

What is important, is that you have law enforcement like Tripwire, MDB23, and myself who have confidence in law enforcement's ability to respond to the next Columbine and be successful. The lack of confidence in the law enforcement community would be cause for alarm.

A significant percent of the battle is mental. Confidence and arrogance brougt about by self assuredness and faith in your department is healthy and necessary.

There will be a Beslan in America. There is plenty of documentation that it is coming. Law enforcement is perparing for it. There will be no repeat of Columbine or Beslan. We will go to the sound of gunfire, as we always have. The difference is the mindset. 9/11 is an example of that mindset. How many police officers perished on that day? 72 gave all that day.

[Trip_Wire (RIP)]

CoLawman:

A great post! I agree with you on all points. We all learn from our mistakes.