View Full Version : Unions a big part of the problem
http://politics.blogs.foxnews.com/2011/07/07/changing-rules-union-game-0?test=latestnews
The National Labor Relations Board (NLRB) is floating a proposal that would alter the way workplace elections are currently held. The board, made up of three Democrats and one Republican, has drafted rules that would speed up the election process and require employers to hand over information on its employees - like email addresses and phone numbers to prospective unions.
I have never been a big fan of unions as they exist today. They play at acting like they are working for the individual worker, when in actuality, they are in it for the money and power themselves. The "Mob" was heavily involved with many of them during the Great Depression and are probably heavily involved now, just in a quieter manner. They use scare tactics to force workers to join and eventually ruin businesses. They basically take control of a business away from the owners. Unions are not helping the economy today, they are an impediment to its recovery.
Wolfy089
07-08-2011, 20:55
It's stories like this that make me glad to live in Wisconsin. It may not be popular but what Govenor Walker is doing is great for the state. Unions are simply not needed.
My wife has been receiving mailings from SEUI every month, for quite sometime and she is not a union member..........but the hospital she works at has a Union and some people belong.
BTW the big problem is not unions alone, the problem is the fact that a lot of businesses moved out of the country to china. Don't give me the line that unions were the sole cause of that. Some states do not have unions such as Idaho where it is a right to work and they don't have them. Boise could have been the next manufacturing hub of the country but no they had to go to china.
The problem with Unions is not the members, it is the people who run the unions. The Teamsters and the Central States Pension Fund did wonderful things with their members dues and pension proceeds. All it takes to gets non-union employees on a Union Job around here is padding the palm of Union, State and City Officials.
Big Business moved out of the country to China and Mexico because those people that represent us in Washington, DC made it advantageous for US Companies to move their facilities outside the US through Tax Incentives, Subsidies, Regulation and Tariffs.
The EPA is notorious for making domestic production non-profitable and not cost effective. Because of the EPA strong arm tactics anything that has some environmental hazard involved is sent elsewhere to produce. The EPA is now inching its way into your home and making it unaffordable to work on homes of a certain age.
Home Depot and Lowe's are allowed to be a wholesale distributor, while also providing service/installation for the same products. 20-30 years ago that would not have been allowed to happen. Why aren't the Unions picketing HD and Lowe's?
Big companies like GE see the US Economy has limited growth potential and see that countries like China and India are an untapped so they are moving their resources in that direction.
There are so many directions to point blame, but I don't have enough fingers on my hands and feet to accomplish the task.
IMRE, the problem with unions is not the unions themselves but many of their members and their stewards.
YMMV.
IMRE, the problem with unions is not the unions themselves but many of their members and their stewards.
I agree. My father was a master carpenter and a member of the capenter's union for over 30 years. The union had training and certification programs, job placement programs, offered its members reduced rate access to excellent health care, offered a retirement fund and reduced rate group life insurance, offered legal services against unfair employer labor practices or for member's disability claims, etc. My father grew up through the 20s and 30s in the farm country of Texas and California, and experienced life without unions - he was a staunch union advocate and reflected the same POV stated by Sigaba.
Richard :munchin
greenberetTFS
07-09-2011, 05:19
That's exactly why Mississippi has "The right to work act"you don't have to join the union if you don't want to..............:rolleyes:
Big Teddy :munchin
There is a world of difference between the trade unions and the rest of the unions even today.
The trade unions have many flaws. Some of them in my area are hard to get into if you are the wrong ethnic group. And they have some really stupid rules. But having said all that, they provided some really valuable services even for the consumers.
At least in my area, if someone is a union journeyman, you know they are qualified to do the job. Most of the best tradesman that I know are either ex-military or trade union (although to be fair, the absolute best tradesman that I have ever worked with is neither).
This is because for all there flaws trade unions at least work to make sure that they have an educated work force. And any one in the trades knows how hard it is to get a trades person who knows their trade these days. Thus, for all they demand in wages and stupid rules at least they give something back in the form a skilled work force.
My union does not do anything in terms of quality control. As such, we are deservedly known as a bunch of losers.
mark46th
07-09-2011, 08:49
Take a look at General Motors and Chrysler Corp. Obama and the UAW fXXked bond holders out of billions of dollars and gave ownership of these companies to the Unions. The unions can bite me. The inmates are running the asylum...
The Reaper
07-09-2011, 09:21
TANSTAAFL.
Dues and benefits increase the cost of production.
Workers make more money (and benefits) in the short term, but eventually, the company, which exists to maximize profits, finds it more advantageous to ship the jobs where the labor costs are lower (right to work states, non-union states, or overseas), or they go out of business as competitors lower their own costs.
You want a minimum wage increase? Feels good, right? Wins lots of votes. Guess what. Everything made by minimum wage workers now costs more, and businesses will generally seek to reduce labor costs by eliminating positions and raising prices. That increases unemployment and creates inflation.
Higher wages kill the goose laying the golden eggs. This was all ECON 101 when I was in school many years ago. Businesses are generally not charities. Darwin rules.
And sadly, public employee unions are the worst of the lot.
The EPA, while initially doing some good work, has ended more jobs in this country than people would imagine and is ranging far afield in search of new targets.
TR
Ambush Master
07-09-2011, 09:44
TANSTAAFL.
The EPA, while initially doing some good work, has ended more jobs in this country than people would imagine and is ranging far afield in search of new targets.
TR
There are NO Wheels for Aircraft Forged in this Country today!! They may be "Finished" here, but the alloy casting and subsequent forging is done o-conus!! Just like EVERY air compressor for sale today, the cylinders and other "cast/forged pieces are not made in the USA!!! You can Thank/Damn the EPA for this!! I would think that eventually someone/some group, would look at Motor-City Detoilet and ask WTF!!!
Take care!
Martin
Yeah, I remember when my Mom used to send me down to Mr Kara's Market with a $1 and I'd come back with 5 bags of potatoes, 2 loaves of bread, 3 bottles of milk, a hunk of cheese, a box of tea bags, the latest Fantastic Four comic, and a dozen eggs. You can't do that now, though...too many security cameras.
And so it goes...;)
Richard :munchin
Worked at US Steel in Gary Indiana in the late 60's during the summer. The numerous unions put everyone out of work and almost closed the Mill...couldn't change a light bulb..had to call an electrician....
The real problem was the huge wage for no skills...and the way they protected loafers, drunks, druggies from being fired.
The older guys 50ish would put in a good days work, the younger folks (my age today) would find a hide site to sleep for 8 hours and bitch about their benefits.
If you ever wanted to get your head cracked wide open go up against the Union in that town in those days.....just a reversal of roles from robber barons to robber unions.
GratefulCitizen
07-09-2011, 17:40
Most of the drivers in my work center started out not belonging to the union, myself included (Arizona is RTW).
One by one, the company broke rules and abused each of us.
We each went to the union, not being a member or paying dues, and asked for help.
The union helped us and didn't even ask us to join.
We all joined of our own accord.
The proof was in the results.
FWIW, I am a steward now and also very much support right-to-work.
Right-to-work forces the unions to look out for the members.
In UPS, the union and operations management act as kind of an adversarial system to resolve disputes.
It works. Our union business agents tell us all the time: "We're not out to bankrupt the company."
For all intents and purposes, UPS Teamsters is a part of UPS (in Arizona, at least).
It is a team effort with different responsibilities and priorities for different parties.
However, unions may not be appropriate for many (if not most) modern business models.
But they do work in some.
I have seen first hand what Unions can do. Their only interest is whats in it for them. It's never about doing their jobs right. This country is going to explode when entitlements run dry.
mojaveman
07-09-2011, 19:42
Don't care for Unions too much.
Joined Teamsters Local 66 in '92 and went to work for Roadway Trucking company loading trucks at 3:00am. The first thing the steward told me was not to work faster than anyone else. The hub that I worked at was newly opened and closed about a year or so later.
Public employee unions? Look at the many municipalities, counties, states, etc. that are almost broke right now. In California if you work in public safety you have the option of retiring at 50 with 3% for every year of employment. If they claim a job related disability they get their pension tax free. On top of that many of them leave the state once they retire.
ZonieDiver
07-09-2011, 19:57
MOO - Unions have a place. As Grateful Citizen said, the key is Right To Work! Unions are much more responsive to members... albeit less pwerful... when that is the case.
I WAS a public employee for many years, and a union member for much of that time, and am a bit conflicted about that. However, RTW is still a key ingredient.
As has been stated, it is often how the 'local' is run that is the key. I was an officer in a local EA (read: union), and we tried to cooperate with management (Admin) as much as possible... but, if you think they didn't try to 'stiff' teachers to 'feather their nest' - you are mistaken.
As to Detroit and unions... management 'back in the day' is as much to blame, if not more, for the situation that developed over time as the union. Management had the fiduciary responsibility, but was too busy 'feathering their nest'!
MOO - Unions have a place. As Grateful Citizen said, the key is Right To Work! Unions are much more responsive to members... albeit less pwerful... when that is the case.
I WAS a public employee for many years, and a union member for much of that time, and am a bit conflicted about that. However, RTW is still a key ingredient.
As has been stated, it is often how the 'local' is run that is the key. I was an officer in a local EA (read: union), and we tried to cooperate with management (Admin) as much as possible... but, if you think they didn't try to 'stiff' teachers to 'feather their nest' - you are mistaken.
As to Detroit and unions... management 'back in the day' is as much to blame, if not more, for the situation that developed over time as the union. Management had the fiduciary responsibility, but was too busy 'feathering their nest'!Too often, management sees manpower (union or not, very skilled or not) as an expense or a disposable tool rather than as a resource (despite all the talk of human resources) or as an asset--to say nothing of as people.
Then again, I'm listening to Ship Ahoy by the O'Jays right now.:)
It will be interesting to see what will happen if the ongoing NFL and NBA lockouts continue while the debates over the private and public sector unions continue. If rank and file union members figure out what they have in common with their exceptionally skilled--and compensated--brethren have in common, we might see some unusual alliances by this winter.
Funny that people that are pro military should talk about this.Here we go!:eek:
longrange1947
07-09-2011, 20:50
Funny that people that are pro military should talk about this. If you join the military at 17 after 20 years at the age of 37 you can retire vs 50 in California safety retirement. I don't hear any military retirees here complaining that you should have to wait longer in the military or give up you medical retirement benefits. BTW many of the people in CA that retire do NOT get medical like you do in the military.
That does not even deserve a reply! :mad:
Funny that people that are pro military should talk about this. If you join the military at 17 after 20 years at the age of 37 you can retire vs 50 in California safety retirement. I don't hear any military retirees here complaining that you should have to wait longer in the military or give up you medical retirement benefits. BTW many of the people in CA that retire do NOT get medical like you do in the military.
Mr.Okie.....I retired after 33 years. When I went to work I was paid about $100 a month initially but that went up a tad in Vietnam....I never negotiated for wages, never went on strike, never had a steward boss, never got paid for overtime which might have been considerable with over 52 months in combat zones, went thru many rifs and up or out programs where folks were given pink slips with no recourse, could not quit if I didn't like the working conditions or someone was trying to kill me...other than that, yup, just like a Union.
BO - I would've joined a union if I could've - especially every time I was 'too' - too hot, too cold, too wet, too tired, too scared, too hungry, too sore, too thirsty, too sick, too homesick, my boots were too tight, too...whatever.
Richard :munchin
PS - my body still aches on an on-going basis...but I guess I'm just too olde to give a s**t anymore and will just drive on as I have always done.
Trip_Wire (RIP)
07-09-2011, 23:12
I have seen this Union business come up many times on military forums. The majority of people who have spent the majority of their lives in the military 25- 30 years are for the most part against them.
I suspect in many cases they have never worked that much on the civilian side of things, nor had to deal that much with pay raises and benefit acquisition in civilian life.
The truth of the matter is that IMHO Unions are a necessary 'evil.' The fact is that nobody in the business and/or corporate world or Government for that matter, are the least bit interested in giving you the money you should be payed for the job you do or the benefits that you and your family need. To think you would be able to negotiate pay raises or benefits on one's own is VERY naive.
Unions were formed for good reason. If you think that if the were disbanded that the business, corporations or Government (Especially local Government) would bargain in good faith with the people (individuals) that work for them, again IMHO you are naive. They would screw you just as they did in the 20's 30's and even 40's.
The fact is that Unions and other forms of organized labor organizations are still necessary. The fact is they can and do keep these people inline by using their combined power to strike and close down business until the come to the table and negotiate. Individuals or even groups of employees just can't bring such power to bear.
Yes, all the things that were mention as con's for the Unions , were true, such as Mob influence, corruption do nothing leaders, etc.
Who's fault is that? The Union members that allow such things to happen.
BTW: Comparing military service and the need for unions in civilian life or civilian job benefits is like comparing Apples and Oranges. I don't think anybody here joined the military for the wages. As for the Retirement benefits it would appear that some of the same anti-union people are trying very hard to chip away at both the pay and other military retirement benefits. To bad there wasn't a organization to put a halt to that!
There is a big difference between public vs private unions.
Private unions have to keep in the back of their minds that is they push too hard they can kill the company.
Public sector unions have no fear of that. Push too hard and the local government just raises taxes.
From where I sit-the lone non-union teacher in a high school surrounded by union members is they have outlasted their usefulness. Now that there is a NLRB and an entire host of other agencies that offer environmental and basic safety protections we can dump the unions. As a teacher it is doubly insulting as I cannot negotiate on my own accord based on the viability of MY efforts. I get paid the exact same- even am required to pay almost all of my union dues despite being a non-member- as the teacher who calls in sick every Friday and does little or no classroom prep or management. In fact, my stance has cost me tons of grief from the union thugs that truly run the school as if they were mafia. While I know my history, and enjoy things like a 5 day work week, and my Auto Shop is safe from environmental hazards thanks to long past union battles, but it's time is lost now. And for a "professional" occupation like teaching it is doubly insulting. Every time I hear teachers babble on about low pay I tell them to blame their unions, because it is the union system that demands low pay and will never reward excellence- ever.
longrange1947
07-10-2011, 09:49
There is a big difference between public vs private unions.
Private unions have to keep in the back of their minds that is they push too hard they can kill the company.
Public sector unions have no fear of that. Push too hard and the local government just raises taxes.
I'll add to that, ....."we will vote for you and get all the membership to vote for you if you pass this, if not we will turn you out."
Hell just raise taxes! We are now seeing the final results of this crap in Greece, and other fine "Progressive" countries.
Even FDR and almost all Dims prior to JFK realized that public unions were a no go.
Private unions have to keep in the back of their minds that is they push too hard they can kill the company.
A simple drive through Appalachia Virginia allows one to see how the relentless push by Unions for extraordinarily high wages and benefits destroyed the Coal industry in that region :(
longrange1947
07-10-2011, 10:34
A simple drive through Appalachia Virginia allows one to see how the relentless push by Unions for extraordinarily high wages and benefits destroyed the Coal industry in that region :(
The same can be seen with Detroit and the auto union.
As another example, in Mexico, the teacher's union, or rather the leader of the teacher's union, is courted as the "king maker" of Mexican political process.
http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/news/2011/07/07/extortion-allegation-rocks-head-teachers-union-in-mexico/
Happen to know a Cali State cop that just retired at 52 years of age...he was going to cont working until he figured out he would make more money retired than he is working...so now he is retired and receives more dough monthly than he made working....not a bad public service union deal....
GratefulCitizen
07-12-2011, 19:33
One problem I have read Right-to-Work can cause is that people who are not union members can oftentimes still get or enjoy the union benefits, which can strain the union. I agree very much with RTW, and it gets the union to look out for its members, but if a person choose not to join the union, they should not expect to gets its protections. If the company starts abusing the person, then they can join the union. Your company's union sounds like a good one.
I have advocated on behalf of vehemently anti-union employees, who do their best to ignore the contract when it doesn't benefit them.
When they need the help of the union, I still fulfill my responsibilities, even though they don't pay dues and actively undermine the system.
The law is the law and they work under the same contract.
They are entitled to the same benefits and protections.
Such employees are the exception, and they won't break the system.
When the union stands up for them, it gains credibility.
If we stand up for the non-members, it is obvious that we will look out for the members' interests.