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View Full Version : Investigation into Atlanta PS System Finds Unethical Behavior Across Every Level


Dusty
07-06-2011, 13:37
http://www.ajc.com/news/investigation-into-aps-cheating-1001375.html

Across Atlanta Public Schools, staff worked feverishly in secret to transform testing failures into successes.

Teachers and principals erased and corrected mistakes on students’ answer sheets.

Area superintendents silenced whistle-blowers and rewarded subordinates who met academic goals by any means possible.

Superintendent Beverly Hall and her top aides ignored, buried, destroyed or altered complaints about misconduct, claimed ignorance of wrongdoing and accused naysayers of failing to believe in poor children’s ability to learn.

For years — as long as a decade — this was how the Atlanta school district produced gains on state curriculum tests. The scores soared so dramatically they brought national acclaim to Hall and the district, according to an investigative report released Tuesday by Gov. Nathan Deal.

In the report, the governor’s special investigators describe an enterprise where unethical — and potentially illegal — behavior pierced every level of the bureaucracy, allowing district staff to reap praise and sometimes bonuses by misleading the children, parents and community they served.

The report accuses top district officials of wrongdoing that could lead to criminal charges in some cases.

The decision whether to prosecute lies with three district attorneys — in Fulton, DeKalb and Douglas counties — who will consider potential offenses in their jurisdictions.

For teachers, a culture of fear ensured the deception would continue.

“APS is run like the mob,” one teacher told investigators, saying she cheated because she feared retaliation if she didn’t.

greenberetTFS
07-06-2011, 14:20
What a shame that whole crew of educators are,top to bottom they got away with this for so long,they should all be fired and replaced ASAP......:mad:

Big Teddy :munchin

Pete
07-06-2011, 14:52
What a shame that whole crew of educators are,top to bottom they got away with this for so long,they should all be fired and replaced ASAP......:mad:

Big Teddy :munchin

It ain't about education - it's about job security.

Once you kick Johnny out with a diploma that says he's an A student few track him to see he failed out of college his first year and is now flipping burgers.

Now we're back on the treadmill of "they inflate the grades because of the national tests - but the national tests were required because they were inflating the grades".

Union job security is the main goal of public eduction - not education.

BrowningFan
07-06-2011, 14:56
The state of our public education system nationwide from Pre-K through post-grad is deeply disheartening and I fret over it often. The question that I ponder most is are the schools the way they are because people are ignorant or are people ignorant because of the schools? The chicken or the egg. Seems the be a vicious cycle.

greenberetTFS
07-06-2011, 15:45
It ain't about education - it's about job security.

Once you kick Johnny out with a diploma that says he's an A student few track him to see he failed out of college his first year and is now flipping burgers.

Now we're back on the treadmill of "they inflate the grades because of the national tests - but the national tests were required because they were inflating the grades".

Union job security is the main goal of public eduction - not education.

I recall at one of my sons high school graduation,when he told me some of the students couldn't even read what was on their diploma's...........:eek:

Big Teddy :munchin

Sigaba
07-06-2011, 16:24
While I agree that the lion's share of the blame belongs to those charged with educating Atlanta's youths, I ask: Where were the parents when their kids were not learning?

Pete
07-06-2011, 16:34
While I agree that the lion's share of the blame belongs to those charged with educating Atlanta's youths, I ask: Where were the parents when their kids were not learning?

Happy - Happy that their kid got a "Terrific Kid" bumper sticker this past year. Happy Billy got a B average all school year (inflated grades).

Around here the bumper sticker is given to 1/4 of the students in each of the four grading periods each year -regardless of their grades or actions. The reason? So every student gets something they can stand up in front of all the students at an awards ceremony during the year and get applauded for.

Dusty
07-06-2011, 17:55
Happy - Happy that their kid got a "Terrific Kid" bumper sticker this past year. Happy Billy got a B average all school year (inflated grades).

Around here the bumper sticker is given to 1/4 of the students in each of the four grading periods each year -regardless of their grades or actions. The reason? So every student gets something they can stand up in front of all the students at an awards ceremony during the year and get applauded for.

LMAO

rdret1
07-06-2011, 18:31
Happy - Happy that their kid got a "Terrific Kid" bumper sticker this past year. Happy Billy got a B average all school year (inflated grades).

Around here the bumper sticker is given to 1/4 of the students in each of the four grading periods each year -regardless of their grades or actions. The reason? So every student gets something they can stand up in front of all the students at an awards ceremony during the year and get applauded for.

Sad, but true. The actual education of the kids takes a back seat to ensuring their self esteem is assuaged, whether they deserve it or not. I believe many of the higher ups in the school system fail to realize that the only true way to elevate a student's self esteem is to show them that they actually can learn.

Ret10Echo
07-06-2011, 18:46
While I agree that the lion's share of the blame belongs to those charged with educating Atlanta's youths, I ask: Where were the parents when their kids were not learning?

Well I know where those parents were NOT...


They were NOT at the fall welcome night

They were NOT at the fall sports-orientation

They were NOT at the mid-term parent/teacher/student night

They were NOT at PTO/PTA meetings

They were NOT at the sports award-ceremony

They were NOT at the student-of-the-month coffee

They were NOT online checking student assignment due dates and course progress

They were NOT reading the myriad of emails, fliers and robo-calls from the school on events, and student status

They were NOT checking out the summer reading list and, in spite of the whining, having their child READ and PREPARE for the next semester

They were NOT shutting off T.V., iPod, Web surfing, X-box and text messaging when their child needed to be concentrating on school work


The AVERAGE school day in the United States is at 7 hours or LESS. (doing some quick math.....carry the 12.....plus Pi)

That means the "student" is NOT in school for 17 hours each day during the week for about 180 days out of a 365-day year.

8760 hours in a year

1260 hours in school (average)


:munchin

The point being, without active parental involvement in the vast majority of the "student's" life it is a losing proposition. You can slap together as many standardized tests and graduation prerequisites as you want. It won't matter. Flogging the teachers does not change the reality. It does not excuse cheating or lying about the condition, but the U.S. society needs to understand the reality.
Why is America falling behind in Engineering and the Sciences? Because amassing gold stars and bumper stickers does not teach you physics or advanced mathematical theory that is the basis for those skills.

ddoering
07-07-2011, 04:33
Happy - Happy that their kid got a "Terrific Kid" bumper sticker this past year. Happy Billy got a B average all school year (inflated grades).

Around here the bumper sticker is given to 1/4 of the students in each of the four grading periods each year -regardless of their grades or actions. The reason? So every student gets something they can stand up in front of all the students at an awards ceremony during the year and get applauded for.


Are you implying that my kid wasn't a "Super Bus Rider?"

Richard
07-07-2011, 04:38
I miss Boston Public.

Richard :munchin

ZonieDiver
07-07-2011, 11:13
If you miss Boston Public, go see Bad Teacher! I found it much more accurate than the usual teaching movie.:D

Sigaba
07-07-2011, 11:24
If you miss Boston Public, go see Bad Teacher! I found it much more accurate than the usual teaching movie.:DI don't know if I'd have studied any more efficiently had any of my teachers looked like Jeri Ryan or Cam Diaz. I do know that I'd have studied harder.:D

nmap
07-07-2011, 12:27
Of course there is grade inflation - and it is endemic. The vast majority of students, parents, administrators, bureaucrats and politicians want high grades. That is one measurement of student learning, so higher grades are the desired result. Few really want anything about troubling realities.

So this brought in the standardized testing crowd, and the multiple-guess standard test was supposed to be a panacea. It isn't, naturally. Since there are benefits for doing well on those tests, and a price to be paid for poor performance, then there is a clear incentive to do whatever it takes to get the numbers up. One can focus on teaching to the test to the exclusion of most other things. Or, one can use the cheating referenced in the original post.

A fair and accurate test is likely to produce a normal distribution curve - and that means that some will excel, and some will do poorly. Interestingly enough, there is a high correlation between zip code and school success - in other words, your neighborhood determines how well you do (yes, I know, correlation is not causality). I cannot supply a link, but I have a paper out of Scotland easily at hand for those who wish to read further details. :D

Anyway, we would have to accept that there most certainly will be children left behind, that not every student can succeed, and that there are some who are just not able to grasp concepts. The results may not be what society wants them to be. If we as a society accepted that dispassionately and decided to proceed with valid, well-designed experiments to find approaches that worked, and then applied them, we might improve the situation. However, I perceive that we prefer comfortable lies to harsh reality, so I won't hold my breath.

In the meantime, we emphasize retention and graduation in higher education and quietly reduce the number of D's and F's assigned. (Grade inflation? Heavens no!) And so we get college graduates that approach cluelessness. They, in turn, teach according to their ability, thus reinforcing a destructive cycle.

In short, we must accept that the phrase "If you can dream it, you can do it" is nonsense. We won't do that until reality rubs our noses in the adverse consequences.

1stindoor
07-07-2011, 12:43
Well I know where those parents were NOT...
They were NOT at the fall sports-orientation



As a husband of an educator I can almost assure you the parents WERE in that meeting...otherwise how can they be sure to get their cherubs into the right cleats, cheerleading uniforms, etc. They'll turn out in droves too for every game and then bitch when they're prodigies aren't given enough game time or forced to sit out for failing an english exam.

Richard
07-07-2011, 12:52
Makes me wish I'd taught at North Manual High School or been principal at Eastside High School in Paterson, NJ.

Richard :munchin

ZonieDiver
07-07-2011, 14:45
Makes me wish I'd taught at North Manual High School or been principal at Eastside High School in Paterson, NJ.

Richard :munchin

You are kind of a cross between Richard Dadier and Joe Clark - more Dadier, I think, but definitely a little Clark! :D

Richard
07-07-2011, 15:09
You are kind of a cross between Richard Dadier and Joe Clark - more Dadier, I think, but definitely a little Clark! :D

That's Mr Daddy-O to you, bubba! :D

Richard :munchin

Richard
07-07-2011, 15:38
RE post #15 and troubling realities...and don't forget the very reason William Farish - a tutor at Cambridge University in England in 1792 who, according to Thom Hartmann‘s Complete Guide to ADHD pp.189-195, was anxious to increase his income by taking more students but not wanting to get to know them as indviduals as required of teachers of the time - invented a grading system adopted from the factories of the industrial revolution and we still use today.

Getting to know one's students meant work, interacting and participating daily with each pupil. It meant paying attention to their needs, to their understanding, and to their styles of learning. It meant there was a limit on the number of students one could really get to know, and - a concern to Farish - a limit on how much money he could earn.

So Farish came up with a method of teaching which would allow him to 'process' his students in a shorter period of time - he invented grades patterned after the grading system which had originated earlier in the factories, as a way of determining if the products, shoes for example, made on the assembly line were “up to grade” or had "made the grade."

After several centuries of such nonsense...it makes one consider that maybe Socrates was correct in his methods after all.

And so it goes...

Richard:munchin

Ret10Echo
07-07-2011, 19:25
They'll turn out in droves too for every game and then bitch when they're prodigies aren't given enough game time or forced to sit out for failing an english exam.


Very true...but what happened even with the sports meetings, the "orientation" part in the school auditorium would be about empty for all that boring "instructional stuff" (Principle, Athletic Director, Boosters), but the breakout rooms for the individual team meetings would be packed.

Sigaba
07-07-2011, 19:33
Of course there is grade inflation - and it is endemic. The vast majority of students, parents, administrators, bureaucrats and politicians want high grades. IMO, grade inflation exists because too many teachers will not put in the effort to hold the line on grades. That is, they don't want to educate their students so that they might deserve the grade they earn.

I'd like to see administrators and academic department heads spending time on websites like ratemyprofessor. From such websites, if not also student evaluations, they could get a sense of which teachers are true believers and who is just passing time. They could then follow up with some investigating. The instructors who spend too much time yammering about subjects that are off topic, who don't cover the materials, and then who give "easy" grades would have the opportunity to get their acts together or hit the bricks.

nmap
07-07-2011, 21:45
IMO, grade inflation exists because too many teachers will not put in the effort to hold the line on grades. That is, they don't want to educate their students so that they might deserve the grade they earn..

Once upon a time...there was this class, taught by a professor who loves his subject and spends most of his free time developing his understanding of that topic. His lectures are superb - interesting, and with complex ideas reduces to clear, plain language with excellent diagrams. He is well respected by his colleagues, his students - and the administration.

I asked to sit in on the class, and did so - back in the back. Each row was elevated, typical in a large lecture hall.

The class, by the way, was an elective. Not required.

And as I looked down, I noticed quite a few students, attentive looks upon their faces, laptops open...and car ads on the screen. Or personal email. Their bodies were present, but their minds were not.

I wonder - how does one educate those with such minimal interest that they won't even sit quietly and pay attention?

joshua20
07-07-2011, 22:36
I actually went to school in Douglas county, and my grades were often pencil whipped because I was an excellent athlete. This being said, I did not do hardly any school work from 7th - 10th grade. It did not help me out later in life academically. If they were harder on me, it would have helped me alot more. I can imagine how hard it is for someone who cannot teach themselves.

Side note: I did go to high school with Ricky Dobbs :cool:

Dusty
07-08-2011, 04:31
The end result is more flash mobs and other crimes.

Buffalobob
07-08-2011, 05:55
If the problem has not surfaced in your local school district, I suspect that it is just that they did a neater job with the erasers.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/dc-officials-to-release-standardized-test-scores-amid-questions-about-cheating/2011/07/08/gIQARiAG3H_story.html

The only time I every ran for an elected office was at our elementary school. What motivated me was that the large group of parents that met every month never discussed the education of the children. I got elected and then the other parents realized I didn't care about the annual school play and field trips to the zoo, my only concern was the lack of time the children were spending in the classroom learning. That ended my career as an elected PTA officer.

greenberetTFS
07-08-2011, 06:28
Makes me wish I'd taught at North Manual High School or been principal at Eastside High School in Paterson, NJ.

Richard :munchin

Richard,

Aren't those schools on par with the one in the movie "Blackboard Jungle"........:rolleyes:

Big Teddy :munchin

Surf n Turf
07-08-2011, 13:32
It ain't about education - it's about job security.

Once you kick Johnny out with a diploma that says he's an A student few track him to see he failed out of college his first year and is now flipping burgers.

Now we're back on the treadmill of "they inflate the grades because of the national tests - but the national tests were required because they were inflating the grades".

Union job security is the main goal of public eduction - not education.

Say it ain’t so
SnT

When school children start paying union dues, that's when I'll start representing the interests of school children."
- Albert Shanker
President, United Federation Of Teachers, (1964-1984)
http://commonsensepoliticalthought.com/?p=10970

kgoerz
07-08-2011, 15:17
Isn't Atlanta the only City to not make a profit off the Olympics?

kgoerz
07-08-2011, 15:19
The end result is more flash mobs and other crimes.

Theres always Freaknic

cetheridge
07-09-2011, 08:24
Theres always Freaknic

Talk about a "flash mob".....!!!!!!
Thankfully the City realized that the income generated from that Freak show was not worth the gridlock, vandalism, and crime resulting from "not wanting to offend a select group of society".
(But, we digress from the topic of this thread.)

While NCLB might have good intentions, the result of cheating by administrators and teachers should have been anticipated...and probably was.... but without whistleblowers might never have surfaced.

Todays Atlanta Journal Constitution headline...."District Attorneys Weigh Indictments". http://www.ajc.com/news/atlanta/district-attorneys-weigh-indictments-1006819.html
And... Governor Deal has ordered an investigation into the Dougherty County (Albany, GA) school system. http://www.ajc.com/news/dougherty-county-cheating-probe-1005932.html

Just the beginning of the domino effect?

A popular saying down here around the Atlanta area..... "Sherman was 147 years too early!"

GratefulCitizen
07-09-2011, 17:54
Once upon a time...there was this class, taught by a professor who loves his subject and spends most of his free time developing his understanding of that topic. His lectures are superb - interesting, and with complex ideas reduces to clear, plain language with excellent diagrams. He is well respected by his colleagues, his students - and the administration.

I asked to sit in on the class, and did so - back in the back. Each row was elevated, typical in a large lecture hall.

The class, by the way, was an elective. Not required.

And as I looked down, I noticed quite a few students, attentive looks upon their faces, laptops open...and car ads on the screen. Or personal email. Their bodies were present, but their minds were not.

I wonder - how does one educate those with such minimal interest that they won't even sit quietly and pay attention?

The day of the erudite professor lecturing a physically present group of students has passed.
Why not record a lecture, and send it to the students?

There can be a virtual Q&A session scheduled some time after the lecture is distributed.
If it's absolutely necessary, the Q&A could be in person.

It comes down to economics.
A greater number of students can be served with greater efficiency by fewer faculty given today's technology.

The least-cost path will win.

nmap
07-09-2011, 21:36
The day of the erudite professor lecturing a physically present group of students has passed.
Why not record a lecture, and send it to the students?

There can be a virtual Q&A session scheduled some time after the lecture is distributed.
If it's absolutely necessary, the Q&A could be in person.

It comes down to economics.
A greater number of students can be served with greater efficiency by fewer faculty given today's technology.

The least-cost path will win.

You'll find that although student learning for online courses (including the sort of recorded lecture you propose) is equal to traditional forms. However - there is a substantially greater failure rate. So those who succeed learn as much in either format, but you have quite a lot more students who wind up failing the non-traditional (online) courses..

If society is willing to do that, then money can be saved. My perception is that society is not willing to do so. YMMV.

Sigaba
07-09-2011, 21:43
The day of the erudite professor lecturing a physically present group of students has passed.Then what explains all of those accounts about school after school increasing their enrollment?

BrowningFan
07-09-2011, 21:50
We should be pleased that action is being taken, but the end result will be an increase in beaurocracy and legislation, both of which only cause more problems IMO. You cannot cure an illness by only treating the symptoms. Our education system has seen enough "palliative care".

Richard
07-12-2011, 07:40
Well...this probe has crept into North Texas as the investigation finds new DeSoto ISD superintendent who just moved here from Atlanta apparently played a role in the Atlanta school cheating scandal...and yesterday was her first day on the job here.

DeSoto school Board Places Superintendent On Paid Leave
DMN, 12 Jul 2011

http://www.dallasnews.com/news/education/headlines/20110711-desoto-school-board-places-superintendent-on-paid-leave.ece

And so it goes...

Richard :munchin

Guy
07-12-2011, 09:53
Well...this probe has crept into North Texas as the investigation finds new DeSoto ISD superintendent who just moved here from Atlanta apparently played a role in the Atlanta school cheating scandal...and yesterday was her first day on the job here.

DeSoto school Board Places Superintendent On Paid Leave
DMN, 12 Jul 2011

http://www.dallasnews.com/news/education/headlines/20110711-desoto-school-board-places-superintendent-on-paid-leave.ece

And so it goes...

Richard :munchinDo you get a new job then, placed on "paid" leave?:confused:

She was placed on paid leave, effective immediately and indefinitely.:eek::confused:


Stay safe.

craigepo
07-12-2011, 10:48
The day of the erudite professor lecturing a physically present group of students has passed.


I sort of agree. Having been in the presence of extremely gifted professors, I would argue that a good professor will always have work. However, schools that are degree/diploma mills have no place for a "good" teacher.

As to the product schools are putting out today, I would opine that the "good" students today are very good, while the "bad" students are what they have always been. Unfortunately, public schools seem to dumb down class material to the lowest common denominator. This, of course, means that parents should fill the gap.

I was on a couple of scholarship committees this spring. Some of the applications were abyssmal; others were inspiring. I noted that most of the "inspiring" students were raised by parents who did a good job of parenting.

I ascribe much of this "parental failure" to a general degradation of society, especially to people having children that don't really care about the kids.

Conversely, I recently helped grade speeches at a parochial school. The teaching techniques utilized by this school are what might be deemed "old school". Small class sizes, tons of one-on-one with teachers, zero tolerance for discipline problems, etc. Also, most of the children come from homes with parents who are very interested in the childrens' education. The end result is that the students that come out of this school do very well on ACT/SAT testing, all do very well in college, and excel in life thereafter.

glebo
07-12-2011, 16:34
Well, it's been brought up before...get rid of one of the big government beauracracies (nooo, I can't spell it) the Dept of Education. Let states do their thing, and quit squabling over Gov't handouts which grease the palms of more than one level that doesn't need it...:munchin

No child left behind...pfft, so lets dumb everyone down so everyone can keep up....everyone gets a trophy....

Kinda like the "It takes a village" thing..hell there's some villages I wouldn't even go into, let alone my kids.....yup, lets relieve the parent of responsibility, and let the "village" do it's thing.....NOT..

anyway...rant over...touchy times these are...

GratefulCitizen
07-12-2011, 18:24
Then what explains all of those accounts about school after school increasing their enrollment?

Should've been more specific.
The days of such a system being economically viable as the primary method have passed.

Higher education is going through a bubble right now.
That bubble is being fueled by economic ignorance on the part of those consuming and easy money from the government.

The bubble will pop.

You'll find that although student learning for online courses (including the sort of recorded lecture you propose) is equal to traditional forms. However - there is a substantially greater failure rate. So those who succeed learn as much in either format, but you have quite a lot more students who wind up failing the non-traditional (online) courses..

If society is willing to do that, then money can be saved. My perception is that society is not willing to do so. YMMV.

Failure rates don't matter so much when there is massive scalability.
If someone needs 20 tries, it is now economically viable to let them.

Failure in the education system mattered before because teaching resources (human and otherwise) were scarce.
A strict selection process was necessary to efficiently allocate those scarce resources.

This is the core of what I was getting at with the original post.

The education system is currently set up to conform students to a cookie-cutter method and pace of learning.
This is the most effective way to train when physical presence is necessary and training resources are in short supply.

Information technology has changed all of that.

The generation of kids under about 15-16 years old are going to bring massive change to our society.
They have never known a world without ubiquitous cell-phones and high-speed internet.

They will not be a generation of permission-seekers, nor will they sit and listen patiently to a lecture.
They will go get the information they need, and form their own networks to accomplish whatever tasks capture their interests.

The speed at which they take over economies will catch older generations by suprise.
Older methods of influence, advertising and politics in particular, will be rendered impotent.

Pandora's box has been opened.
It remains to be seen whether this upcoming generation will use it for good or evil.

nmap
07-12-2011, 18:57
The generation of kids under about 15-16 years old are going to bring massive change to our society. They have never known a world without ubiquitous cell-phones and high-speed internet.

They will not be a generation of permission-seekers, nor will they sit and listen patiently to a lecture. They will go get the information they need, and form their own networks to accomplish whatever tasks capture their interests.


Some will. For that matter, some of today's students fit that pattern. You might be surprised to know that colleges are adapting to that form.

Most students are not that capable - nor are they that motivated. And sometimes they have views that are remarkably distorted due to the electronic lens through which they view the world.

The internet is a powerful tool - and yet, the information is not always valid. So not only must the student find information, they must also evaluate it. In contrast, traditional forms of publication can filter results, thus avoiding some false trails.

For example - there are some very bright, very capable students who contend that the warriors of tomorrow will come from the video gamers of today, and that due to playing such games they will be far more effective than were past generations of warriors. I question that assumption, but am not qualified to say. Perhaps some of the warriors here would care to comment.

GratefulCitizen
07-12-2011, 19:25
The internet is a powerful tool - and yet, the information is not always valid. So not only must the student find information, they must also evaluate it. In contrast, traditional forms of publication can filter results, thus avoiding some false trails.


Down to the root of the matter.
The education system in this country, for more than a century, and "passive media" (TV, radio, newspapers) have been "filtering" results for some time.

It's not so much the information itself, but rather the little nudges, deliberate and otherwise, which matter.
Specifically, education and passive media try to tell people what their priorities should be.

Education and passive media are superior to other methods when providing information which conforms to their priorities.
When people decide for themselves their own priorities, they will actively seek how best to serve the same.

If information is invalid, this is quickly discovered when it fails to serve someone's priorities.
Trial and error eventually lead them to their goals.

Old media is dying as a business model.
People are choosing their own priorties, and ignoring the old media.

Pundits whine and cry about "echo chambers".
I call that "community forming" (...choose your community wisely).

The same pattern will follow with the education system.

Peregrino
07-12-2011, 19:54
in a tightly focused trance.

Grossman is a proponent of the idea... it makes sense to me, too.

Tightly focused trances get people killed. Video games are two dimensional, life is four dimensional (duration/time). Learning/training technologies are advancing by leaps and bounds; however, VR has not reached the point where the neuro/muscular programing needed to build the "gestalt" required of a Soldier is possible. GEN Dempsey thinks video games are the cat's meow too. I think we get better Soldiers with traditional methods and full contact athletics. FWIW - I've never met a Soldier, let alone a Warrior who thought CofD IV was training. (My definition of Soldier is fairly strict, my definition of Warrior is virtually impossible for even extraordinary Soldiers to attain.)

Richard
07-12-2011, 20:02
suppose we... it makes sense to me, too.

I'm sure it does; I disagree.

Richard :munchin

1stindoor
07-13-2011, 16:39
... it makes sense to me, too.

I'm sure lots of things make sense to you...what with all of your experience. Before you start working out the details of how the Army should train...try training IN the Army first.

Dusty
07-13-2011, 17:35
suppose we take a young, enthusiastic person, and we set him in front of a screen watching footage of skilled soldiers doing their job, communicating with each other, moving, etc. and we show that kid situations and environments that soldiers might be expected to fight in the future when he's of age. and we show him all the newest technologies that will be used commonly by that time and familiarize him with how they're used. and on and on like that.

now replace the passive watching of a screen, with the active, highly focused involvement that, say, 'call of duty' requires to play. and now get the military to work with the developers so that its more realistic and the situations in the game play out as one might expect them to in the real world. remember, kids will play these games for hours and hours at a time, in a tightly focused trance.

Grossman is a proponent of the idea... it makes sense to me, too.

That's idiotic.

plato
07-13-2011, 19:30
now replace the passive watching of a screen, with the active, highly focused involvement that, say, 'call of duty' requires to play.
Grossman is a proponent of the idea... it makes sense to me, too.

Could work, but you have to play outside.

You have to play from an upper limb on a tall tree.
Add a windstorm, and driving rain, so you're scared sh*tless and half-blinded.
Your controller works 95% of the time. It stops at random intervals, and takes a reasonably complicated process to reset.
Make sure you're about 8 inches from a high-power line.
Place your kid brother on a limb on the other side of the power line.
Grease the limb where he's sitting, so he's slowly sliding down.
Tape a cattle prod to your testicles that may go off at any time.:rolleyes:

Remember to keep your physical and mental balance, adjust for constant movement, see clearly while half-blinded, grab your brother while avoiding the power line, and ignore the impending pain.

Simultaneously, focus on the screen................... and fire!

Oh, and forget about that molasses in your boxers, time for that later.:D