View Full Version : It's Just Wrong...
My cousin posted this pic from her visit to her place of worship, yesterday... :confused:
It is wrong on so many levels and they don't take American Express... :mad:
:D:D
A simple and fast way to remain faithful
I find it odd, that it's ALWAYS about the $$$$$$$
give some bucks....save your soul....yeah...got it..:confused:
Only time I go to Church....is when I drive by one.
My own way, in my own house...that's my place of worship..
The wording on the machine give this kind of message
"Jesus loves you....only after you give X amount of money"
Donations are supposed to be done so that one can contribute to the maintenance of the church and not for showing faith. You show whether you have faith by the way you conduct yourself everyday.
kimberly
07-04-2011, 08:00
Organized religion is man-made. So are ATMs. I'll stick to non-religion. I'll stick to finding God in the mountains and streams, and the goodness in humanity.
Everything is for sale now.
Organized religion is man-made. So are ATMs. I'll stick to non-religion. I'll stick to finding God in the mountains and streams, and the goodness in humanity.
I think you'll find the Mtns and streams alot quicker....than the "goodness" of humanity..
And quoting good 'ol Richard..."so it goes"...
It is....what it is...
How else is the pastor going to be able to afford his mortgage for his home in the toney part of town? Do you know what is costs to fuel up a private jet these days?
How else is the pastor going to be able to afford his mortgage for his home in the toney part of town? Do you know what is costs to fuel up a private jet these days?
Matthew 21:12
219seminole
07-04-2011, 09:45
During my years in ministry I nearly went broke, but there are indeed some who prosper, perhaps using 1 Corinithians 9:7 for inspiration.
When I worked in Orange County, Ca, I used to see the TBN lady with big hair driving her white BMW convertible; she often had her matching pair of German shepherds (dogs, not missionaries) in the back seat.
Some prosper, some wither on the vine. My guiding principle, however, has been Micah 6:8.
It's not in how it's given - It's in how it's spent.
ZonieDiver
07-04-2011, 10:34
How the hell can I palm money from the collection plate with some monstrosity like that?;)
kimberly
07-04-2011, 11:40
I suppose by holding out the mechanical hand, they won't ever have to hear any stories of woe from parishoners about losing homes to foreclosures, losing jobs and finding it difficult to feed the family. No conscience in a machine, just take the money.
And Glebo, there is goodness in humanity. Sometimes one has to look hard, but it's there. I've seen some of it.
I find it odd, that it's ALWAYS about the $$$$$$$
give some bucks....save your soul....yeah...got it..:confused:
Only time I go to Church....is when I drive by one.
My own way, in my own house...that's my place of worship..
Same here brother. I've traveled all over the world and have seen many religions. In the US the Baptist talk about the Catholics, the Catholics talk about the Mormons, the Mormons talk about ...... You get the idea. A church is just a building and there are people that need a structured/orchestrated setting in order to feel better I guess but not me. Most churches I attended in the past were just a microcosm of society and had their own clicks, everyone was a good christian in their own minds.
My dad was of a religion that didn't believe in churches, the women didn't believe in cutting their hair and only wore dresses. They didn't believe in TV or jewelry. It was sort of a cross between a Quaker and a Mennonite I guess. They held services at members houses. When I was young we were out back shelling some peas under the pecan tree and he told me I should go to his church as they were the only ones going to heaven. Well you guessed it as I went off on him and let him know that only one person gets to make that decision and he was not that person.
My feeling is that as long as I live my life the best I can helping people along the way and ask the almighty for guidance and forgiveness I'm good to go.
craigepo
07-04-2011, 13:04
I find this thread interesting.
I recently went out to help with relief work in Joplin, Mo., a few days after the tornado had hit the town. I was amazed by the number of church buses that were parked everywhere; churches in the region had loaded up bus after bus, and the congregation members were all over the stricken area, doing what they could. The US government was not helping dig bodies out of the rubble---it was a region's worth of churches. People taking time off work, away from their own lives, to just come help.
On the periphery of the stricken area, various Christian organizations had set up tractor trailers for relief stuff. Food, clothing, shelter, everything was provided by organizations like the Convoy of Hope. Churches in the region donated so much stuff that those who had suffered from the tornado were taken care of almost immediately.
The Scottish Rite cathedral was packed with Masons from several states. They spent their time cooking and taking meals from the cathedral to the people working in the stricken area. One Mason brought a smoker and cooked 500 lbs of pork butts per day for the workers.
Interestingly, I did not see one atheist organization in Joplin helping dig through rubble. Also, I didn't see any trucks from an "I worship in my own way" organization handing out food or clothing. It was entirely donated from "Believers'" treasuries and labor.
I realize that it is easy to heckle "Christians", preachers, "the Church", and the notion of a congregation giving money to a church. Indeed, like every human endeavor, humans occasionally screw religion up. But, you might want to go out and get some ground truth before you anonymously deride these organizations from the comfort of your keyboard.
Golf1echo
07-04-2011, 13:31
Organized religion is man-made. So are ATMs. I'll stick to non-religion. I'll stick to finding God in the mountains and streams, and the goodness in humanity.
This is the way I feel too but I understand not everyone feels the same. Through out history offerings, payments and support has been given to various churches for various works. Should that include the 3-7% for processing fees and the now 21 cents for debit card swipes, possible machine fees, let alone accounting fees?
Drusagas
07-04-2011, 13:36
Song from my favorite band, speaks to this situation exactly.
S.M.C. by Project 86
"Big business ain’t easy
I’m sure you’d agree
Especially when the product is eternity-
To stay one step ahead we must achieve
And turn this holy temple
Into a factory
Is there anywhere you can run
To hide from these thieves? -
Cause eternity’s on sale today for a fee
Faith is buying me a way
Buying me a way
To convert the masses into little servants
Faith is buying me away
Buying me a way
Buying me into your home (soul)
Our sanctuary of this high-rise
Our steeples, our billboards
Our slogans, our converts
Oh don’t forget to buy this T-shirt
As you leave
And open up the offering box
And give until it hurts
Show me an open heart and we’ll steal it away
Cause eternity’s on up for sale for a small fee today
You Know
This altar is a stage
Our sponsor must be paid
And maybe even make the front page"
Edit* To explain further, this is a Christian band. I consider myself "religious," though the connotations of that word are ambiguous at times. This song is pointing out the corruption that happens in churches today and how it seems that those who give more are more likely to be saved; as if you're paying a "pre-mortgage" on a house in Heaven when that is something no man can buy (etymology of the word "simony"). Another example, in my opinion, of this is, recently, a mega-church in the Ft. Worth, TX area begin broadcasting their services to their overflow rooms in 3D. IMHO, I believe that is an improper use of tithes and offerings and also that a "tithe machine" has no place in a house of worship. But these are my opinions.
As far as the ATM shown in the first post goes - IMO it's nothing personal or anything to get worked up over, it's just business as usual.
And as far as the relief efforts in Joplin go, PR is a powerful recruiting tool and I suspect not everybody who was pitching in during such a trying time was as committed to overtly advertising who they are and what they may believe as some may have been doing.
http://www.komu.com/news/how-to-help-relief-efforts-for-joplin1/
And so it goes...
Richard :munchin
Interestingly, I did not see one atheist organization in Joplin helping dig through rubble. Also, I didn't see any trucks from an "I worship in my own way" organization handing out food or clothing. It was entirely donated from "Believers'" treasuries and labor.
.
And here is as perfect example of why I don't belong to an organized religion.
According to this statement if I don't belong to an organized religion then I am not a "Believer". Unfortunately too many religious institutions believe this for some reason. Sorry, once again you don't get to make that judgment. I'll defer to the almighty for that. A church is just that "a church" and that doesn't mean everyone who enters it a christian. A church just like any other group of people is a microcosm of society. You have good people and bad people. I can worship, praise, thank, ask guidance from the almighty from anywhere.
I have absolutely have no problem with people who like organized religion as if that is what it takes for them to fulfill their needs. I'm a loner by nature and don't need to belong to a group to feel good about myself personally. Not saying that is what organized religion is but rather that's my personality. What I have a problem with is those individuals that push the "if you don't go to church, if you don't give enough to the church or of you don't believe what I believe you are going to hell" on me.
............I have absolutely have no problem with people who like organized religion as if that is what it takes for them to fulfill their needs. I'm a loner by nature and don't need to belong to a group to feel good about myself personally. .........
I think you fired right past craigepo - and missed.
As he pointed out - in major disasters, aside from government, you have the Red Cross and then major local Christian relief agencies that flood in and provide services and food kitchens.
The Baptists in most southeastern states have pretty well organized field kitchen services.
You don't see many "I don't believe the way you believe" agencies flooding in to help.
It's not all about money.
It's not all about money.
Roger that.
Pete,
Actually I think I nailed it.
The post states that "Interestingly, I did not see one atheist organization in Joplin helping dig through rubble. Also, I didn't see any trucks from an "I worship in my own way" organization handing out food or clothing. It was entirely donated from "Believers'" treasuries and labor."
Seems to be saying that if you're not part of an organized religion you're 2nd class (an atheist perhaps) and don't count in the big picture. Further it hints that only "Believers" meaning organized religion in this conversation donated or did anything.
I'm not part of any "I worship in my own way" organization as once again I don't feel the need to belong to ANY organization to feel better about myself.
Religion is a good thing and organizations have their place for most people but belonging to one isn't a requirement for getting into heaven in my book.
Unfortunately the bible wasn't written by God or Jesus but rather man and man decided what to put in it. There in lies a MAJOR flaw as I see it. Who determined what goes in and what gets left out of the bible and what were their goals.
My philosophy:
Live your life to the best of your ability
Treat everyone with respect
Help others along the way when possible
Ask the creator for guidance for yourself and others
Ask the creator for forgiveness
Thank the creator for everything he has and will do for you
Raise your children to do all the above
......Seems to be saying that if you're not part of an organized religion you're 2nd class (an atheist perhaps) and don't count in the big picture. Further it hints that only "Believers" meaning organized religion in this conversation donated or did anything............
Money talks - and it ain't only good Christians that donate money in a disaster. Everybody donates - but it takes an organization to put that money to work.
I mentioned the Baptists but I'm not one. I did a little research on them and saw their field kitchens in operation. They even had at least one here in Fayetteville after the Tornado. I give to them in a disaster because my sect seems to have sticky fingers.
So if a disaster hit an area close to home who would you pick to help out? For a person with skills sometimes the skills are worth more than money.
Money talks - and it ain't only good Christians that donate money in a disaster. Everybody donates - but it takes an organization to put that money to work.
I mentioned the Baptists but I'm not one. I did a little research on them and saw their field kitchens in operation. They even had at least one here in Fayetteville after the Tornado. I give to them in a disaster because my sect seems to have sticky fingers.
So if a disaster hit an area close to home who would you pick to help out? For a person with skills sometimes the skills are worth more than money.
I totally agree. As I stated, organized religion is a good thing, I'm just not quiet when mislead organized religion try's to state that they are the only game in town.:)
greenberetTFS
07-04-2011, 15:57
I find this thread interesting.
I recently went out to help with relief work in Joplin, Mo., a few days after the tornado had hit the town. I was amazed by the number of church buses that were parked everywhere; churches in the region had loaded up bus after bus, and the congregation members were all over the stricken area, doing what they could. The US government was not helping dig bodies out of the rubble---it was a region's worth of churches. People taking time off work, away from their own lives, to just come help.
On the periphery of the stricken area, various Christian organizations had set up tractor trailers for relief stuff. Food, clothing, shelter, everything was provided by organizations like the Convoy of Hope. Churches in the region donated so much stuff that those who had suffered from the tornado were taken care of almost immediately.
The Scottish Rite cathedral was packed with Masons from several states. They spent their time cooking and taking meals from the cathedral to the people working in the stricken area. One Mason brought a smoker and cooked 500 lbs of pork butts per day for the workers.
Interestingly, I did not see one atheist organization in Joplin helping dig through rubble. Also, I didn't see any trucks from an "I worship in my own way" organization handing out food or clothing. It was entirely donated from "Believers'" treasuries and labor.
I realize that it is easy to heckle "Christians", preachers, "the Church", and the notion of a congregation giving money to a church. Indeed, like every human endeavor, humans occasionally screw religion up. But, you might want to go out and get some ground truth before you anonymously deride these organizations from the comfort of your keyboard.
I don't think anyone could have express it any better.... God bless you brother.
My feeling is that as long as I live my life the best I can helping people along the way and ask the almighty for guidance and forgiveness I'm good to go.
I feel the same. I grew up Catholic, but in the 5th grade I decided their whole "if you're not Catholic you can't go to Heaven" speeches, among some other proclamations, to be ridiculous.
I've been a recovering Catholic ever since. :D
Oh and and as far as the money thing? My family moved to Indy from Chicago and my baby brother was in first grade I think. They put him in private Catholic school down there but then decided to send him to the public school. My father asked for my brother's records and was told he was "behind in his tithing" and would need to pay up to get the records. They obviously had never met my dad...huge mistake. :D
incarcerated
07-04-2011, 17:16
Well….I’m glad we had this little chat…
Well….I’m glad we had this little chat…
:) Sometimes it's a good thing to vent. :o
craigepo
07-04-2011, 21:39
And here is as perfect example of why I don't belong to an organized religion.
According to this statement if I don't belong to an organized religion then I am not a "Believer". Unfortunately too many religious institutions believe this for some reason. Sorry, once again you don't get to make that judgment. I'll defer to the almighty for that. A church is just that "a church" and that doesn't mean everyone who enters it a christian. A church just like any other group of people is a microcosm of society. You have good people and bad people. I can worship, praise, thank, ask guidance from the almighty from anywhere.
I have absolutely have no problem with people who like organized religion as if that is what it takes for them to fulfill their needs. I'm a loner by nature and don't need to belong to a group to feel good about myself personally. Not saying that is what organized religion is but rather that's my personality. What I have a problem with is those individuals that push the "if you don't go to church, if you don't give enough to the church or of you don't believe what I believe you are going to hell" on me.
My poorly-written point was not meant to be personal, impugn anyone's beliefs, or to imply that certain persons are better than others. It was simply to illustrate that the money collected by churches is very often put to good use, a use that is often maligned and consistently ignored. Moreover, the pooling of this money allows the whole to be greater than the sum of the parts.
"Unfortunately the bible wasn't written by God or Jesus but rather man and man decided what to put in it. There in lies a MAJOR flaw as I see it. Who determined what goes in and what gets left out of the bible and what were their goals."
I used to think the same thing, until I studied the council of Nicea.
I used to think the same thing, until I studied the council of Nicea.
Council of Nicea - a textbook case business marketing and sales strategy meeting.
All this reminds me of the following:
The hurricanes that hit the Gulf Coast in 2005 were devastating and did not spare the houses of worship in and around the area. One of the local television stations aired an interview by a reporter who was from a Boston affiliate in which the reporter asked a local resident how such total and complete devastation of the churches in the area had affected their lives.
Without hesitation, the local resident replied, "I don't know about all those other people, but we haven't gone to Churches in years...we prefer to get our chicken from Popeye's."
Richard
My poorly-written point was not meant to be personal, impugn anyone's beliefs, or to imply that certain persons are better than others. It was simply to illustrate that the money collected by churches is very often put to good use, a use that is often maligned and consistently ignored. Moreover, the pooling of this money allows the whole to be greater than the sum of the parts.
No harm brother. Sometimes it's hard to deduce the true meaning of a post as it was intended. I've done it too in the past and had to back peddle as after reading my post it didn't come over the way I wanted it to.
Well….I’m glad we had this little chat…
Really? Who's not getting along?
Council of Nicea - a textbook case business marketing and sales strategy meeting.
All this reminds me of the following:
The hurricanes that hit the Gulf Coast in 2005 were devastating and did not spare the houses of worship in and around the area. One of the local television stations aired an interview by a reporter who was from a Boston affiliate in which the reporter asked a local resident how such total and complete devastation of the churches in the area had affected their lives.
Without hesitation, the local resident replied, "I don't know about all those other people, but we haven't gone to Churches in years...we prefer to get our chicken from Popeye's."
Richard
I actually heard that clip....things that make your jaw drop.....
FWIW the 'money machine' seems smarmy to me. Inhuman.
OTOH my wife and I give reg thru the Church, she was the lead on that but I've seen where the money can really do good things for folks that are in need and we get a financial statement every year showing what goes where.
It isn't my nature, I've been close with the dough all of my life but I've found that the more we give has never made a dif in our lifestyle, there always seems to be more than we need. How that works, well, who knows huh.
Churches can be vetted in much the same way charitible org can so if you decide to give do the same checking.
I've always been proud that Americans are generous people.
Maybe that ATM thing needs to be off in a side room, where no one can see you enter ...
Matthew 6:3
But when you give alms, do not let your left hand know what your right is doing, so that your almsgiving may be secret. And your Father who sees in secret will repay you.
I find this thread interesting.
I recently went out to help with relief work in Joplin, Mo., a few days after the tornado had hit the town. I was amazed by the number of church buses that were parked everywhere; churches in the region had loaded up bus after bus, and the congregation members were all over the stricken area, doing what they could... snip .
As a former resident of the Mississippi gulf coast, I saw the exact same thing first hand. A church van from Pennsylvania full of young, old, male, female pulled up across the street from my house every day and put my neighbors house back together, even taking the time to enhance the foyer with very nice arch shaped entrances. They asked for nothing, and did not over do their message.
The same scene played out all over the coast. Although it is mandated by the Bible that you give to your local body of believers, I feel that atm machine is beyond insulting.
GratefulCitizen
07-06-2011, 12:25
If a particular group wants to "guilt trip" somebody into giving, that is their problem.
Not much different from the practice of indulgences.
The concept of "giving" to the Almighty seems odd to me.
Can't "give" Him what's already His.
Always looked at doing good works, be it financial or something else, as a form of receiving good.
We're put in circumstances from time to time where we have the opportunity to do good.
Doing good works is a form of receiving from the Almighty be cause it changes character; makes us better.
It is an opportunity to participate in His good works.
"...all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;"
-Isaiah 64:6
greenberetTFS
07-06-2011, 13:27
As a former resident of the Mississippi gulf coast, I saw the exact same thing first hand. A church van from Pennsylvania full of young, old, male, female pulled up across the street from my house every day and put my neighbors house back together, even taking the time to enhance the foyer with very nice arch shaped entrances. They asked for nothing, and did not over do their message.
The same scene played out all over the coast. Although it is mandated by the Bible that you give to your local body of believers, I feel that atm machine is beyond insulting.
As a current resident of Mississippi and living 49 miles due north of N.O. during Katrina I can really admire the Christian groups that came down to help us so quickly with food,water and helping families with the essentials for babies and children......:o I couldn't find FEMA or the Red Cross anywhere in site for at least a week or more.....:( The Mormons came with tractors to haul off 6 trees that landed on my roof........ :) The Salvation Army people came house to house offering assistance in giving us shelter with cots,blankets and a safe place to rest and sleep........:) Enough said about where our money goes to these Christian groups........ Unless you've experience something like this please don't comment about where your money is being used ............
Big Teddy
And people look at me stupid when I say I don't believe.
craigepo
07-06-2011, 20:59
And people look at me stupid when I say I don't believe.
Interesting signature block.
If one looks at the deposit machine from a business perspective, it could be an example of poor execution of a very good idea.
The good idea has five components. First, the machine provides parishioners a way to donate money securely. Where there's an opportunity to handle cash, there's an opportunity to pocket cash. Even if the probability of that theft may ostensibly be low, it can still happen. (As a kid sitting in his grandparents' church during the summers, I always assumed that the money being put into the collection trays as they wended along the pews went where it should but in retrospect, temptation is temptation.)
Second, the machine should allow for data collection that can be analyzed. Data analysis can help answer questions like: Is a church offering sermons that resonate among the laity? Are donations greater in certain conditions than in others? Can a church shape some of those conditions while remaining true to its purpose? (This "what if" focuses on the types of sermons being offered within certain environmental circumstances.) Is a church asking its parishioners for too much? (Look at the types of payment: cash, debit, or credit.)
Third, if there are data that can be analyzed, there are data that can be audited. One way to challenge the broadly held perception that organized religion leads to corrupt churches is to open the books. (Background checks wouldn't hurt either.)
Fourth, the technology may allow donors to get receipts for tax purposes. (Render unto Caesar.)
Fifth, the technology allows for donors to give in privacy. A level of privacy can help church goers give the right amount of money for the right reasons as opposed to peer pressure, showing off, or keeping up with the Joneses. (If the flock were perfect, it would need neither sheepdogs nor shepherd.)
What makes for poor execution is the presentation of the device. Put simply, the textual message is tacky. This issue can be addressed easily by the marketing/art department/business development/software teams of the vendor.
As for the broader issue of churches and charitable works, I'm ambivalent. If done poorly, charitable works can come across as the crass exploitation of business development/marketing opportunities. If done well, charitable works provide an opportunity to explore the depths of one's faith.
TrapLine
07-07-2011, 05:24
my wife and I give reg thru the Church, she was the lead on that but I've seen where the money can really do good things for folks that are in need and we get a financial statement every year showing what goes where.
It isn't my nature, I've been close with the dough all of my life but I've found that the more we give has never made a dif in our lifestyle, there always seems to be more than we need. How that works, well, who knows huh.
This mirrors my own experience. It is funny how that works, isn't it;).
I recently went out to help with relief work in Joplin, Mo., a few days after the tornado had hit the town. I was amazed by the number of church buses that were parked everywhere; churches in the region had loaded up bus after bus, and the congregation members were all over the stricken area, doing what they could. The US government was not helping dig bodies out of the rubble---it was a region's worth of churches. People taking time off work, away from their own lives, to just come help.
On the periphery of the stricken area, various Christian organizations had set up tractor trailers for relief stuff. Food, clothing, shelter, everything was provided by organizations like the Convoy of Hope. Churches in the region donated so much stuff that those who had suffered from the tornado were taken care of almost immediately.
The Scottish Rite cathedral was packed with Masons from several states. They spent their time cooking and taking meals from the cathedral to the people working in the stricken area. One Mason brought a smoker and cooked 500 lbs of pork butts per day for the workers.
.
My Brothers place was hit by the tornado in Sanford NC. His had major damage but was still standing. His inlaws place was distroyed, everything but the foundation was gone. Within the first 2 hours, local churches and nieghbors were coming by and checking on everyone to make sure they had food, water clothing and shelter. Within the first two days, church organizations were comming by and "triaging" the area to form a work schedule. With in the first week all the debris was removed from the houses except for the tree on my brothers house. These religous groups used their time, money, and machinery to make short work of the devistation and asked for nothing in return. Not even a prayer session or a promise to attend church. They also never asked what religion you were or even if you believed. They came and asked if you needed help and if they could give it.
During that time everybody with a chainsaw stopped by and offered to help, for a "reasonable" price. This included Joe Bob in a pick up to commercial contractors in Mercedes. They did not care what religion you were either as long as you had money to give them. not just any amount but a very specific amount.
During this period the insurance companies were also performing triage so it took time for adjusters to get to everyone. During the first week of recovery, alot of people whose homes were not destroyed only got a quick visit from the adjusters. It took nearly two weeks before my brother got a check from them so that the tree could be removed from the house. It had to be proffesionally removed due to its size. It was the last piece to be cleaned up. When it was removed all the other clean up and landscaping had been done by church groups, if not for the smashed house you would not have known there had been any tornado.
If it had not been for the church groups, the cleanup of the entire area would have taken much longer and been much more expensive to insurance companies, the government, and to the individual home owners. The church groups do not do this for the recognition or the money. They do it because its the right thing to do.
As for the ATM in church, no thanks. I believe I would have to change churches if mine were to do that. It makes me believe that they are more interested in money than teaching the word of GOD.
Saturation
07-16-2011, 08:52
If your cousin was in Palm Beach County this church is well known as a mega-church here. They are well established as pushing the technology forward in a worship setting so it's no surprise to see this picture representing their latest technology.
Guess I'm more old fashioned and don't tolerate some of these 'advances' in church as well as others...
Originally posted by Richard:
All this reminds me of the following:
The hurricanes that hit the Gulf Coast in 2005 were devastating and did not spare the houses of worship in and around the area. One of the local television stations aired an interview by a reporter who was from a Boston affiliate in which the reporter asked a local resident how such total and complete devastation of the churches in the area had affected their lives.
Without hesitation, the local resident replied, "I don't know about all those other people, but we haven't gone to Churches in years...we prefer to get our chicken from Popeye's."
I read the above quote and almost wet my pants. Then after having stopped laughing and cleaning the monitor I had to try and find the video showing this. I googled through the world-wide-web and the only thing that I did find was evidence to the contrary.
Sorry, but Snopes would not allow me to copy the text so you will have to click the link to see the story.
http://www.snopes.com/katrina/humor/churches.asp
If you make up a Religion you will become rich. I just can't wrap my head around. How arrogant it is to believe your God created the Universe. No matter who your God is.