View Full Version : VA Assault on Free Speech
OldNCranky
06-30-2011, 11:08
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2011/06/va-veterans-cemetery-bans-the-word-god-jesus-offensive-no-longer-allowed.html
http://punditpress.blogspot.com/2011/06/va-cemetery-to-veterans-word-god-jesus.html
It's part of the program: Western decorum-tradition are being destroyed....
IMO, this controversy is about volunteers being upset that they cannot impose their agenda upon grieving families or the federal government.
The Houston Chronicle on line edition has more information here (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/7630537.html).
Paragrouper
06-30-2011, 12:54
IMO, this controversy is about volunteers being upset that they cannot impose their agenda upon grieving families or the federal government.\
Or it could be that an agent of the government is imposing his/her agenda on volunteers by supressing their free speech.
That would be my opinion.
Question to the forum; has any one participated in a funeral at a cemetary that did not involve some sort of religious rites?
219seminole
06-30-2011, 13:18
As a retired minister I have officiated at funerals at National Cemeteries and pronounced the committal at a funeral at Arlington; at Arlington a military chaplain actually officiates. If any VA person had told me what I could/could not say I would have gone ballistic.:mad: Outside of Arlington, volunteers get the job done at the National Cemeteries because there are not enough military to cover the job. This whole thing is absolutely stupid and may be an example of The Peter Principle.
Or it could be that an agent of the government is imposing his/her agenda on volunteers by suppressing their free speech.Another possibility is that a mourner took exception to something that a volunteer said, took his/her concerns to the VA and the VA laid out rules giving final authority as to what is and isn't said to the family.According to court documents, Ocasio banned veterans organizations and volunteer groups from using certain religious words such as "God" or "Jesus," censored the content of prayer and forbade the use of religious messages in burial rituals unless the deceased's family submitted the text for prior approval.
Read more: http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/7630537.html#ixzz1QmybUHzt
To me, Nobleton Jones, a veteran, unself-consciously tipped his hand when he offered the following comments at a press conference.After the hearing, Vietnam veteran Nobleton Jones spoke up at a Liberty Institute press conference.
Jones said he has presented shell casings from the gun salute to veterans' grieving family members at funerals in Houston National Cemetery for the past three years.
But after a burial ceremony May 16, Jones said a government official told him he could no longer recite the words he always says when he hands over the shells: "We ask that God grant you and your family grace, mercy and peace."
The 66-year-old Houstonian said he felt belittled.
"That makes me feel smaller, even after I spent my time in the military, fighting so that people should be able to say that," he said.
"I did all this for my country and you are going to tell me what I can and can't say?"Are funerals for veterans about them and their families or are they about Mr. Jones, about his own sense of worth (note, he said "smaller," not "small"), and what he thinks other people should say?
Another possibility is that a mourner took exception to something that a volunteer said, took his/her concerns to the VA and the VA laid out rules giving final authority as to what is and isn't said to the family.To me, Nobleton Jones, a veteran, unself-consciously tipped his hand when he offered the following comments at a press conference.Are funerals for veterans about them and their families or are they about Mr. Jones, about his own sense of worth (note, he said "smaller," not "small"), and what he thinks other people should say?
Sigaba,
I dont like to nitpick, but this detail seems important to the discussion.
I believe Mr. Jones concern was about what people "should be able to" vice "should" say.
Respectfully,
Andre
Paragrouper
06-30-2011, 14:03
Another possibility is that a mourner took exception to something that a volunteer said, took his/her concerns to the VA and the VA laid out rules giving final authority as to what is and isn't said to the family.To me, Nobleton Jones, a veteran, unself-consciously tipped his hand when he offered the following comments at a press conference.Are funerals for veterans about them and their families or are they about Mr. Jones, about his own sense of worth (note, he said "smaller," not "small"), and what he thinks other people should say?
That dog just won't hunt.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
You read it how you want. these folks are not agents of the government and they enjoy the right to express themselves, even if it offends some.
Shadow1911
06-30-2011, 14:11
That dog just won't hunt.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
You read it how you want. these folks are not agents of the government and they enjoy the right to express themselves, even if it offends some.
As far as I can see, there is not much room for debate on this.
I read that this is to keep the government out of religion. No where does it say to keep religion out of government.
That dog just won't hunt.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
You read it how you want. these folks are not agents of the government and they enjoy the right to express themselves, even if it offends some.QP Paragrouper--
With respect, as volunteers for a government agency, are VA volunteers not subject to rules? <<LINK (http://www.volunteer.va.gov/FAQs.asp)>>
Also, there's what is within one's rights and then there's what is appropriate. If the argument "they enjoy the right to express themselves, even if it offends some," is going to prevail, then what shall be said of the antics of the Westboro Church?
.............. If the argument "they enjoy the right to express themselves, even if it offends some," is going to prevail, then what shall be said of the antics of the Westboro Church?
Hey now - don't give them any ideas. Don't need to have them volunteering and then slappin' everybody with a lawsuit when they are turned down.
Hey now - don't give them any ideas. Don't need to have them volunteering and then slappin' everybody with a lawsuit when they are turned down.
Who says we need to turn them down - maybe they (WBC members) should be "accepted" as volunteers...that pre-ceremony orientation rally point waaaayyy out back might get real interesting. Why do I sense someone might really get religion...
Paragrouper
06-30-2011, 15:59
With respect, as volunteers for a government agency, are VA volunteers not subject to rules?
Absolutely. However, those rule should not infringe their rights. I am subjected to a lot of crap that I don't agree with or find offensive in public forums, under the auspices of free speech. Therefore, I have no sympathy for those who are offended by anothers religious beliefs.
Also, there's what is within one's rights and then there's what is appropriate. If the argument "they enjoy the right to express themselves, even if it offends some," is going to prevail, then what shall be said of the antics of the Westboro Church?
I wouldn't compare organizations such as the VFW to Westboro Baptist Church.
You seem to be hung up on the 'agenda' of these volunteer organizations. Perhaps you should contact these organizations and ask them why they are there, rather than drawing your conclusions soley on an article from the Houston Chronicle.
Entire post.QP Paragrouper--
With respect, the Liberty Institute has not issued any correction or clarification or elaboration of the statements of one if its clients as reported in a very sympathetic newspaper article.
Unless given reason to do the contrary, I shall continue to pay Mr. Jones the courtesy of taking him at his word. He and others are the ones who decided to make this matter an issue of victimization (as opposed to clarifying the legality of the VA's directive or as opposed to saying "my attorneys speak for me") and it is the efficacy of that choice I am questioning.
Insofar as my comparison between the VFW and Westboro, I respectfully submit that you misread my post.
QP Paragrouper--
With respect, the Liberty Institute has not issued any correction or clarification or elaboration of the statements of one if its clients as reported in a very sympathetic newspaper article.
Unless given reason to do the contrary, I shall continue to pay Mr. Jones the courtesy of taking him at his word. He and others are the ones who decided to make this matter an issue of victimization (as opposed to clarifying the legality of the VA's directive or as opposed to saying "my attorneys speak for me") and it is the efficacy of that choice I am questioning.
Insofar as my comparison between the VFW and Westboro, I respectfully submit that you misread my post.
The problem is, this is not the first time/place this complaint has been lodged. No one in the VA needs to be telling anyone what words of sympathy they can say, period.
Paragrouper
06-30-2011, 22:03
Insofar as my comparison between the VFW and Westboro, I respectfully submit that you misread my post.
If you say so. It sure looked like you were presenting a caricature of my position. If that was not your objective, perhaps you should strive for more clarity.
I remember a number of volunteers I spoke to when my father was interred at the VA cemetery in Bushnell, FL a couple of years ago. They were very considerate of my mother and my family and they treated us with great respect. It is my opinion that they perform a valuable service for veterans and their families. I hope they continue their service to others and that they prevail in defending their right to express themselves.
alright4u
06-30-2011, 22:26
\
Or it could be that an agent of the government is imposing his/her agenda on volunteers by supressing their free speech.
That would be my opinion.
Question to the forum; has any one participated in a funeral at a cemetary that did not involve some sort of religious rites?
Reports from field show the VA has played the PC game.
If you say so. It sure looked like you were presenting a caricature of my position. If that was not your objective, perhaps you should strive for more clarity.QP Paragrouper--
To clarify, I was suggesting that making this issue one of free speech (as opposed to an issue of misguided administrative discretion/bureaucratic asshattery), the plaintiffs in this case and their advocates might unintentionally play into the hands of Westboro-types. It would be most unfortunate if members of that church were to cite this case as precedent for their hateful conduct.
I do believe that persons participating in a funeral should defer to the last wishes of the decedent and that person's family. Even if that means not saying "God bless you" to people who don't believe in God.
YMMV.
Paragrouper:Question to the forum; has any one participated in a funeral at a cemetary that did not involve some sort of religious rites?
Yes, I have! As a member of an honor guard for a funeral of a cremated vet where the family only had the military flag folding, firing and Taps.
I have to agree with Sigaba. Funerals should be about what the family/deceased wishes. If you can't agree to that don't participate.
Paragrouper:Question to the forum; has any one participated in a funeral at a cemetary that did not involve some sort of religious rites?
Yes, I have! As a member of an honor guard for a funeral of a cremated vet where the family only had the military flag folding, firing and Taps.
I have to agree with Sigaba. Funerals should be about what the family/deceased wishes. If you can't agree to that don't participate.
The question here is not that the family requested no mention of God or Jesus, it is that the VA made the pronouncement that no prayers could be made in their names. It had nothing to do with the families wishes.
greenberetTFS
07-01-2011, 15:22
The problem is, this is not the first time/place this complaint has been lodged. No one in the VA needs to be telling anyone what words of sympathy they can say, period.
I concur..........:D:D:D
Big Teddy :munchin
If I pass in service to this country, as sure as there is a God and as sure as there is a Hell, God will be a major part of that ceremony regardless of the location. No bottom feeder lawyer or VA official has the right to tell anybody otherwise.
-out
rdret1,
Concur.
VA should not dictate. It should be the family/deceased preferences that rule the service. It is not the place of the VA to say what words of sympathy are appropiate. They need to butt out!
madeinengland
07-07-2011, 10:43
The question here is not that the family requested no mention of God or Jesus, it is that the VA made the pronouncement that no prayers could be made in their names. It had nothing to do with the families wishes.
You have jumped to the emotion-fueled conclusion of all the protesters, and that which local politicians are using as a tool to demonstrate not only their patriotism but also their religious conviction.
It's pretty simple. VA volunteer groups are not allowed to show favor to one particular religion at veteran funerals without the consent of the family, as, being supported by the VA, this indicates the state is doing the same. It's just this particular funeral director, Arlene Ocasio, has decided to enforce this rule. Morons have jumped on this and drawn the conclusion that she is trying to stop prayer at VA funerals.
1. She cannot tell families not to pray/say, "God," or, "Jesus," at their own private VA funerals. She is not trying to do this, so this is irrelevant anyway. I read in one story a guy speaking about how his dad, a Marine at death's door, no longer wants to be buried at this cemetery because of this. Please, this poor guy is going to his grave believing that the world is now so fucked up that his family cannot even pray for him at his own funeral. This is absurd!!
2. Ocasio realizes that other people exist....I mean people other than Christians and they may want to buried without the mention of God, Jesus, or any prayer at their VA funeral but still want to be honored for being a vet. Honor them! This is what these groups are supposed to be doing.
3. If you are Christian and want to bury a vet at this funeral with all the Christian bells and whistles-prayer, God Bless condolence cards etc provided by the VA supported volunteer groups, YOU CAN HAVE THAT!. No one is telling you you can't. It's just not the default any more, for the above reasons, so now you must first let the funeral director know before the funeral. Do this and you will get it.
ONCE AGAIN: You do not need to ask for permission to pray at your own family members funeral, you need to make a request if you want the state supported groups to pray etc. at the funeral.
This is not bigotry, religious censorship, nor is it the world gone mad or lost to the atheists. Wake the fuck up people.
You have jumped to the emotion-fueled conclusion of all the protesters, and that which local politicians are using as a tool to demonstrate not only their patriotism but also their religious conviction.
It's pretty simple. VA volunteer groups are not allowed to show favor to one particular religion at veteran funerals without the consent of the family, as, being supported by the VA, this indicates the state is doing the same. It's just this particular funeral director, Arlene Ocasio, has decided to enforce this rule. Morons have jumped on this and drawn the conclusion that she is trying to stop prayer at VA funerals.
1. She cannot tell families not to pray/say, "God," or, "Jesus," at their own private VA funerals. She is not trying to do this, so this is irrelevant anyway. I read in one story a guy speaking about how his dad, a Marine at death's door, no longer wants to be buried at this cemetery because of this. Please, this poor guy is going to his grave believing that the world is now so fucked up that his family cannot even pray for him at his own funeral. This is absurd!!
2. Ocasio realizes that other people exist....I mean people other than Christians and they may want to buried without the mention of God, Jesus, or any prayer at their VA funeral but still want to be honored for being a vet. Honor them! This is what these groups are supposed to be doing.
3. If you are Christian and want to bury a vet at this funeral with all the Christian bells and whistles-prayer, God Bless condolence cards etc provided by the VA supported volunteer groups, YOU CAN HAVE THAT!. No one is telling you you can't. It's just not the default any more, for the above reasons, so now you must first let the funeral director know before the funeral. Do this and you will get it.
ONCE AGAIN: You do not need to ask for permission to pray at your own family members funeral, you need to make a request if you want the state supported groups to pray etc. at the funeral.
This is not bigotry, religious censorship, nor is it the world gone mad or lost to the atheists. Wake the fuck up people.How does addressing those who have a different view than you on this controversial issue in such a fashion help advance the discussion?
madeinengland
07-07-2011, 11:08
How does addressing those who have a different view than you on this controversial issue in such a fashion help advance the discussion?
In my dictionary, moron is a stupid person.
I use this word not to describe someone with a differing point of view but a person unable to read and comprehend the actual situation, someone who instead reads the headline and takes off.running, a stupid person.
I have argued over this particular issue with so many and am just so amazed at the amount of people who refuse to hear the actual issue and just revert to the described stupidity. I am encouraging people to wake up, so I threw in a.sentence enhancer. Sorry if I offended anyone. However, if you read my post above and believe I am calling Christians stupid, then I feel sorry for you.
In my dictionary, moron is a stupid person.
I use this word not to describe someone with a differing point of view but a person unable to read and comprehend the actual situation....Ah, irony.
madeinengland
07-07-2011, 11:23
Ah, irony.
I see the irony and admit that my opinions are also emotion-fueled.
Addressing those on the other end of the discussion with the language I used above does not help the discussion in anyway at all.
Ironically...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8lT1o0sDwI
And so it goes...
Richard :munchin
[QUOTE]You have jumped to the emotion-fueled conclusion of all the protesters, and that which local politicians are using as a tool to demonstrate not only their patriotism but also their religious conviction.
It's pretty simple. VA volunteer groups are not allowed to show favor to one particular religion at veteran funerals without the consent of the family, as, being supported by the VA, this indicates the state is doing the same. It's just this particular funeral director, Arlene Ocasio, has decided to enforce this rule. Morons have jumped on this and drawn the conclusion that she is trying to stop prayer at VA funerals.
If you read the stories, this is not what is being alleged. She is allegedly not allowing the families to make the decision, she is. If the family were to make that decision, it would be honored without hesitation. No one is jumping to an emotional fueled conclusion.
1. She cannot tell families not to pray/say, "God," or, "Jesus," at their own private VA funerals. She is not trying to do this, so this is irrelevant anyway. I read in one story a guy speaking about how his dad, a Marine at death's door, no longer wants to be buried at this cemetery because of this. Please, this poor guy is going to his grave believing that the world is now so fucked up that his family cannot even pray for him at his own funeral. This is absurd!!
Again, read the stories. This is exactly what is being alleged, that she is stating the words "God" and "Jesus" cannot be used.
2. Ocasio realizes that other people exist....I mean people other than Christians and they may want to buried without the mention of God, Jesus, or any prayer at their VA funeral but still want to be honored for being a vet. Honor them! This is what these groups are supposed to be doing.
Once again, if the family had made a request to leave out mention of "God" or "Jesus", and instead requested an athiestic, Muslim, Shinto, Buddhist, Taoist, or even Wiccan funeral; I am sure those requests would have been honored. The specific allegations are that she is using her own judgement to prohibit these words.
3. If you are Christian and want to bury a vet at this funeral with all the Christian bells and whistles-prayer, God Bless condolence cards etc provided by the VA supported volunteer groups, YOU CAN HAVE THAT!. No one is telling you you can't. It's just not the default any more, for the above reasons, so now you must first let the funeral director know before the funeral. Do this and you will get it.
Refer to the above statements and the stories. Your statement is not supported as to the allegations.
http://nation.foxnews.com/texas/2011/06/29/feds-ban-god-houston-national-cemetery
http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/military/article/Graveside-censorship-is-blasted-1453310.php
http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2011/06/houston_cemetery_bans_the_word_god_from_military_f unerals_1.html
IMO, there are five issues.
Are the allegations correct?
If so, is Ocasio following policy?
Is the policy appropriate?
Is the policy legal?
Are Ocasio's opponents following the most effective course of action to resolve the issues (both real and perceived)?
Has anyone seen a copy of the actual court documents filed on the plaintiffs' behalf?
madeinengland
07-08-2011, 07:01
Again, read the stories. This is exactly what is being alleged, that she is stating the words "God" and "Jesus" cannot be used.
I see your links, but seeing as you are the one claiming Ocasio is telling families that they cannot pray at their own private funerals, the burden of proof lies with you. I have read the links, and cannot see anywhere where this is so.... If you would like to maybe cut and past the sentence or whatever where you read this...I would be very pleased.
Once again, if the family had made a request to leave out mention of "God" or "Jesus", and instead requested an athiestic, Muslim, Shinto, Buddhist, Taoist, or even Wiccan funeral; I am sure those requests would have been honored. The specific allegations are that she is using her own judgement to prohibit these words. No, the allegation is that that she is telling these VA supported groups that they cannot preach Christianity at these funerals without the family's request. This is absolutely fair.
"At all VA national cemeteries, families are free to choose and use the burial rites and rituals that are meaningful or sacred to them. ... Families are equally free to have a service without religious references."
Josh Taylor, a spokesman for the VA, said all national cemeteries are subject to the same rules, which allow volunteer groups to include religious content in military funeral honors only at the request of the family of the deceased, and then only the text approved by the family.
The rules apply only to members of honor guard details, not to clergy or others provided by families.
Read more: http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/military/article/Graveside-censorship-is-blasted-1453310.php#ixzz1RWFbcPmy
Like I said, post a quote from one of the many stories that says otherwise....
In fact, it is following the Cemetery's own rules http://dig.abclocal.go.com/ktrk/ktrk_063011_honorguardguidelines.pdf
"The suit accuses U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs officials and Houston National Cemetery director Arleen Ocasio of banning members of these groups from invoking the names of "God" or "Jesus" at burials, and forbidding the recitation of religious messages unless the deceased's family submits the text to her for approval.
Read more: http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/military/7639350.html#ixzz1RWCdd4Ed"
FWIW...
Scott Rainey's complaint is attached.
The complaint mentions a letter of demand dated 24 May 2011.
That letter is available here (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CC0QFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fteapartycheer.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2011%2F06%2F1-Liberty_Institute_Letter_052511.pdf&rct=j&q=ocasio%20veterans%20pdf&ei=AS8XTrqrG5TCsAOT9ojRDQ&usg=AFQjCNFsoe6hLGYh1LInPyIrvhuR3Cj22A&cad=rja). IMO, the appendices to that letter are noteworthy.
Paragrouper
07-08-2011, 10:46
No, the allegation is that that she is telling these VA supported groups that they cannot preach Christianity at these funerals without the family's request. This is absolutely fair.[/b]
No, the allegation is the US government violated US Law and the plaintiffs constitutional rights by imposing restrictions against private citizens on what they may or may not say.
The SF Prayer - the originator's story of how and why it came about, and what it represents.
http://www.prayer.sfahq.com/chaplin_john_stevey.htm
http://www.prayer.sfahq.com/
Richard :munchin
madeinengland
07-08-2011, 11:12
FWIW...
Scott Rainey's complaint is attached.
The complaint mentions a letter of demand dated 24 May 2011.
That letter is available here (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CC0QFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fteapartycheer.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2011%2F06%2F1-Liberty_Institute_Letter_052511.pdf&rct=j&q=ocasio%20veterans%20pdf&ei=AS8XTrqrG5TCsAOT9ojRDQ&usg=AFQjCNFsoe6hLGYh1LInPyIrvhuR3Cj22A&cad=rja). IMO, the appendices to that letter are noteworthy.
Fascinating. Thanks!
Do you have access to the suit filed by the Liberty Institute in the OP?
I see your links, but seeing as you are the one claiming Ocasio is telling families that they cannot pray at their own private funerals, the burden of proof lies with you. I have read the links, and cannot see anywhere where this is so.... If you would like to maybe cut and past the sentence or whatever where you read this...I would be very pleased.
No, the allegation is that that she is telling these VA supported groups that they cannot preach Christianity at these funerals without the family's request. This is absolutely fair.
"At all VA national cemeteries, families are free to choose and use the burial rites and rituals that are meaningful or sacred to them. ... Families are equally free to have a service without religious references."
Josh Taylor, a spokesman for the VA, said all national cemeteries are subject to the same rules, which allow volunteer groups to include religious content in military funeral honors only at the request of the family of the deceased, and then only the text approved by the family.
The rules apply only to members of honor guard details, not to clergy or others provided by families.
Read more: http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/military/article/Graveside-censorship-is-blasted-1453310.php#ixzz1RWFbcPmy
Like I said, post a quote from one of the many stories that says otherwise....
In fact, it is following the Cemetery's own rules http://dig.abclocal.go.com/ktrk/ktrk_063011_honorguardguidelines.pdf
"The suit accuses U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs officials and Houston National Cemetery director Arleen Ocasio of banning members of these groups from invoking the names of "God" or "Jesus" at burials, and forbidding the recitation of religious messages unless the deceased's family submits the text to her for approval.
Read more: http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/military/7639350.html#ixzz1RWCdd4Ed"
Local veterans and volunteer groups accuse Department of Veterans Affairs officials of censoring religious speech — including the word "God" - at Houston National Cemetery.
In one example cited in documents filed this week in federal court, cemetery director Arleen Ocasio reportedly told volunteers with the National Memorial Ladies that they had to stop telling families "God bless you" at funerals and that they had to remove the words "God bless" from condolence cards.
"It's just unfair that somebody would ask us to take God out of our vocabulary," said Cheryl Whitfield, founder of Houston National Memorial Ladies.
Read more: http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/7630537.html#ixzz1RXCru0F0
The suit accuses U.S. Veterans Affairs Department officials and Houston National Cemetery director Arleen Ocasio of banning members of these groups from invoking the names of God or Jesus at burials, and forbidding the recitation of religious messages unless the deceased's family submits the text to her for approval.Read more: http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/military/article/Graveside-censorship-is-blasted-1453310.php#ixzz1RXDa0THr
The director of the Houston VA National Cemetery, Arleen Ocasio, has ordered the burial teams to instruct that religious references, as well as prayer, are no longer to be included as part of the burial services. Requests for messages or prayers can be formally submitted for her approval, but the mention of "God" is not allowed.
Ocasio has also ordered the closing of the cemetery chapel, which used to be available for grieving family and friends to gather and pray. The space is now used to conduct personnel meetings, and for storage.
Here are your quotes. They appear to be in plain english to me. There is no reference that any family made a request for the exclusion of the words "God" and/or "Jesus". It is quite clear that the request was made by Ocasio, presumably per VA guidelines. If you read the complaint, kindly provided by Sigaba, you will also see that the complaint was not based on a particular family request, rather the individual judgement of Ocasio, again, presumably per VA guidelines.
I still do not believe your position is supported by the available information.
Fascinating. Thanks!
Do you have access to the suit filed by the Liberty Institute in the OP?AAAAAARRGGGGGHHHHHH!!:eek::(:mad::p
MIE--
As the last page of the complaint and the numerous news stories and blogs referenced in this thread make clear, the two suits are one in the same. That is, the Liberty Institute is providing Mr. Rainey's legal representation in this matter.
madeinengland
07-08-2011, 11:27
No, the allegation is the US government violated US Law and the plaintiffs constitutional rights by imposing restrictions against private citizens on what they may or may not say.
I'm seeing these "private citizens" as representatives of the VA, and, therefore, the government, and by allowing them to show favor to Christianity over all other faiths, the government is doing the same and violating the "Establishment Clause."
From reading her email regarding the Pastor Rainey incident it seems she is trying to avoid the above. I believe she is trying to do the same in this case too. So rather than demanding families submit their prayers for her own personal editing, she is ensuring that the family at the funeral are actually wanting the government representatives to say prayers etc. inclusive of God, Jesus etc.
madeinengland
07-08-2011, 11:34
Read more: http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/7630537.html#ixzz1RXCru0F0
Read more: http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/military/article/Graveside-censorship-is-blasted-1453310.php#ixzz1RXDa0THr
Here are your quotes. They appear to be in plain english to me. There is no reference that any family made a request for the exclusion of the words "God" and/or "Jesus". It is quite clear that the request was made by Ocasio, presumably per VA guidelines. If you read the complaint, kindly provided by Sigaba, you will also see that the complaint was not based on a particular family request, rather the individual judgement of Ocasio, again, presumably per VA guidelines.
I still do not believe your position is supported by the available information.
None of this supports the claim that families are being told they cannot pray at their own funerals. The restrictions are on the VA supported groups, who are able to pray, say Jesus/God etc. at the family's request.
If there was one case of a single family being told that they were not allowed to pray at their own funeral...............it would be in at least one of these stories....don't you think?
madeinengland
07-08-2011, 11:39
AAAAAARRGGGGGHHHHHH!!:eek::(:mad::p
MIE--
As the last page of the complaint and the numerous news stories and blogs referenced in this thread make clear, the two suits are one in the same. That is, the Liberty Institute is providing Mr. Rainey's legal representation in this matter.
Sure, but should there not be a little more added to the complaints part?
I mean, where is the poor Christian family being told by Ocasio that they cannot pray or even mention God/Jesus at their Grandpa's funeral?
Rainey was asked to perform a prayer at a national service. The groups kicking up a fuss that they are being censored are state supported groups attending private funerals. I see a difference.
None of this supports the claim that families are being told they cannot pray at their own funerals. The restrictions are on the VA supported groups, who are able to pray, say Jesus/God etc. at the family's request.
If there was one case of a single family being told that they were not allowed to pray at their own funeral...............it would be in at least one of these stories....don't you think?
No one has said that the families were told they couldn't pray! The entire point of this thread is that Ocasio has told outside preachers and volunteers that they cannot use the words "God" and "Jesus" at ceremonies! It has absolutely nothing to do with a family request as no family has made such a request! The entire point of this thread and the law suit is that Ocasio has demanded the SHE be the one to approve such prayers!
As Sigaba so aptly stated: AAAAARRRRRRGGGGGHHHHHH!:rolleyes:
madeinengland
07-08-2011, 12:02
No one has said that the families were told they couldn't pray! The entire point of this thread is that Ocasio has told outside preachers and volunteers that they cannot use the words "God" and "Jesus" at ceremonies! It has absolutely nothing to do with a family request as no family has made such a request! The entire point of this thread and the law suit is that Ocasio has demanded the SHE be the one to approve such prayers!
As Sigaba so aptly stated: AAAAARRRRRRGGGGGHHHHHH!:rolleyes:
The Rainey incident was ruled on, and is now history.
The VA supported volunteers are the issue of today.
She is requesting that if a family wants the VA supported volunteers to say prayers, say God/Jesus etc. at their funeral that they request it. Yes, they have to request it from her, as she is the director of the cemetery. Unless she finds the funds to institute a prayer request approval board, she has to do it. There is not one complaint of Ocasio editing a prayer once a family has requested the groups pray at their funeral. She has simply told the groups they cannot pray without the family's consent, which must be submitted to her for the reasons mentioned above).
As it is all funerals will be attended by these VA supported groups, who will preach Christianity at everyone attending the funeral. This is the default funeral if you like. Ocasio, has obviously realized that not all of the vets being buried are Christian and may not want the above, as well as noting that allowing the above to continue violates the"Establishment Clause," so she has decided to invoke the rules and only allow these groups to pray etc. if requested by the family.
I don't see the problem. I see no violation of free speech or religious persecution at all just a fair deal.
I mean, it's the equivalent of turning up to a funeral for one of your buddies and having all the volunteers there tell you they hope your friend enjoys his time at Satan's side or whatever a Satanist might say. Or a volunteer making a speech honoring your friend and finishing it with, "and BTW, God does not exist." Sure, if you want those things at your funeral, request them from Ocasio, but why should they be there by default??
Paragrouper
07-08-2011, 12:57
I'm seeing these "private citizens" as representatives of the VA, and, therefore, the government
See what you choose, they do not consider themselves, nor are they, the 'government.' They have alleged the government has violated the law and, if they prevail, the government will, hopefully, be held accountable.
by allowing them to show favor to Christianity over all other faiths, the government is doing the same and violating the "Establishment Clause.".
I imagine you can demonstrate the government has excluded other volunteer groups on the basis of their religious convictions--or are you just speculating?
[QUOTE]She is requesting that if a family wants the VA supported volunteers to say prayers, say God/Jesus etc. at their funeral that they request it.
Where are you getting this information? Show me the source.
Yes, they have to request it from her, as she is the director of the cemetery.
Under what regulation?
Unless she finds the funds to institute a prayer request approval board, she has to do it. Where does a "prayer approval board" show up any where? What regualtion governs this board or her position of approval?
She has simply told the groups they cannot pray without the family's consent, which must be submitted to her for the reasons mentioned above).
Show me the source of your information. Where did she tell any group they had to get the family's consent. If the groups had the family consent, why would they still need her approval of the prayer? At no point in any of the articles posted in this thread has that been stated.
As it is all funerals will be attended by these VA supported groups, who will preach Christianity at everyone attending the funeral.
How many military funerals have you been too? Having been to funerals all over the east coast, including several at ANC, I cannot remember one which preached Christianity at everyone attending the service. It was not by a VA supported group, it was by the clergy of the family's choosing.
This is the default funeral if you like.
What is a default funeral? A Christian funeral? It is only "defaulted" to a Christian funeral if that was the arrangements made by the family. You make it sound as if the VA decides on the funeral arrangements and just goes with it.
Ocasio, has obviously realized that not all of the vets being buried are Christian and may not want the above, as well as noting that allowing the above to continue violates the"Establishment Clause," so she has decided to invoke the rules and only allow these groups to pray etc. if requested by the family.
A) What made her realize this? It would be obvious when the family requested the funeral of their specific religion when the arrangements were made.
B) What gave her the authority to invoke these so called rules in the first place?
C) What are you basing your opinion on? Sources?
madeinengland
07-21-2011, 06:38
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/7662493.html
"The suit, on behalf of VFW District 4, American Legion Post 586, and Houston's National Memorial Ladies, claims VA officials have banned members of the volunteer groups from saying the words "God" or "Jesus" at burial services, and have forbidden them from reciting prayers or using religious language during services unless grieving families approve the texts in advance."
"VA officials have explained that the names of God and Jesus are not banned at VA national cemeteries, and that VA policy protects families' rights to pray as they choose during services."
madeinengland
07-21-2011, 07:23
Where are you getting this information? Show me the source.
The links you posted.............
Under what regulation? I'm assuming she is the director of the cemetery under the regulation of the fact that she landed the job......
Where does a "prayer approval board" show up any where? What regualtion governs this board or her position of approval? I was being facetious.
Show me the source of your information. Where did she tell any group they had to get the family's consent. If the groups had the family consent, why would they still need her approval of the prayer? At no point in any of the articles posted in this thread has that been stated. The volunteer groups cannot show up at funerals at her cemetery spouting off prayers willy nilly. The prayer to be read by a volunteer group at this particular cemetery must first be chosen, written, or approved by the family and then approved by the funeral director.
Why must it be approved by the director? That's like nazi germany!! I hear you cry.
-No, it must be approved by the director, because .....if you remember, the volunteer groups cannot read a prayer that is not first approved by the family and the director. The idea is that the family has to want the prayer being read by the volunteer group to be read by the volunteer group. So, once this is established-the fact the family would like a certain prayer read by the volunteer group at their funeral-the volunteer group can read away. However, before the volunteer group can read a prayer at said funeral, it must be approved by the funeral director. Remember, to stop volunteer groups from reading prayers at funerals willy nilly, they must first be approved by the director of the cemetery.
Here's a scenario: The Waltons wanna bury Grampa Joe, a Marine. HHhmmm...who do they talk to about organizing the funeral? maybe the cemetery director? Maybe not. Either way, they talk to someone in charge of ceremonies at the cemetery. Lets imagine a representative. The representative sits down with the bereaved family. It's at this point that a discussion regarding prayers happens. The family produce Grampa's favorite prayer, "Here," Mrs. Walton says. "This is his favorite prayer. Please can we have this prayer read at his funeral?" "Why, of course you can," answers the representative.
Now, notice this cemetery representative did not answer with, "Whoa!...hang on a second. Our director has to approve all prayers first. She may not like your prayer."
To continue: Standing outside the main building, like sprinters poised awaiting the starter's gun, the volunteer groups eagerly awaits their opportunity to honor the fallen vets with their ceremonies etc. In an office somewhere in the main building the representative diligently delivers the message from the Waltons that they would like a prayer read at the funeral to .....dun dun dun......Arleen Ocasio, the funeral director.
Now, notice that Ocasio does not read the prayer and say, "Oh no....they're Christians....ugh. I don't like the way this prayer sounds," and as she bangs her desk with a hammer fist making everything on the desk to bounce she shouts, 'I disprove of this prayer!!!!"
No, instead she says, "Cool, let the volunteers know, and make sure they get a copy." The representative does this and boom!! the volunteers kick into action...Jesus action!
How many military funerals have you been too? Having been to funerals all over the east coast, including several at ANC, I cannot remember one which preached Christianity at everyone attending the service. It was not by a VA supported group, it was by the clergy of the family's choosing. I have never been to a military funeral. Christianity is preached at a Christian funeral. it really is...considering the definition of the word preach and all...
What is a default funeral? A Christian funeral? It is only "defaulted" to a Christian funeral if that was the arrangements made by the family. You make it sound as if the VA decides on the funeral arrangements and just goes with it. "A default" funeral is a term I coined in this discussion. It describes the funeral that would be performed without any input from the family and before Ocasio started wanting to approve prayers at the funerals. I.E. a funeral where the volunteers were happy. A funeral they all knew, grew up with, and believed in; a funeral in which they could pray, tell family members at the funeral, "God bless," and hand out condolence cards with those words printed inside them. The way a funeral should be, right? Fuck you if don't believe in God or would at least rather not have God and Jesus mentioned at your funeral.
A) What made her realize this? It would be obvious when the family requested the funeral of their specific religion when the arrangements were made. An awareness of the fact that not everyone wants the "default" funeral.
B) What gave her the authority to invoke these so called rules in the first place? Director of the cemetery.
C) What are you basing your opinion on? Sources? The articles online. I have nothing else.
It seems what this really is is the requirement of of requesting Christian prayer to be included in the funeral verses requesting prayer not be included in the funeral. The Christians would like to not have to request that prayer be included in thair funerals. I mean why should they? This is a Christian nation blah blah blah.... If you don't want Christianity in your funeral then you have to do the requesting!!
This mentality leaves the default funeral as a Christian funeral.
Ocasio seems to feel that the default funeral should be without one particular religion, and that to have religion included in your funeral, you should have to want it, and therefore, request it. For the religion to be included in the funeral, it must be approved by the funeral director, so once it is requested, she approves it.
Seems so simple. No matter how many times I repeat it.
madeinengland
07-21-2011, 07:30
http://www.bjconline.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=4540&Itemid=134
The response-http://www.scribd.com/doc/60281425/varesponse
As the sources you have posted are dated more than a month after the original clips, those within the VA are trying to mitigate the damage done by the original complaint. Notice you could not make the same quotes from the articles a month ago.
This is the closest quote from a month ago, in the Houston Chronicle, which Sig posted:
According to court documents, Ocasio banned veterans organizations and volunteer groups from using certain religious words such as "God" or "Jesus," censored the content of prayer and forbade the use of religious messages in burial rituals unless the deceased's family submitted the text for prior approval.
Notice it states the family had to submit the text for Ocasio's approval; not that the family had to approve the volunteer's prayer.
I'm assuming she is the director of the cemetery under the regulation of the fact that she landed the job......
Really? The fact that she "landed the job" does not a regulation make.
I was being facetious.
In the context of your writing, it didn't appear so.
The volunteer groups cannot show up at funerals at her cemetery spouting off prayers willy nilly. The prayer to be read by a volunteer group at this particular cemetery must first be chosen, written, or approved by the family and then approved by the funeral director.
Obviously, you have no clue how these things work. Volunteer groups do not simply "show up willy nilly". For example; I am a Ride Captain with the Patriot Guard. When we get the notification of a young soldier's pending interment, we have been contacted by a member of the family requesting our presence. At that point, members of the PGR will coordinate with the family as to their exact wishes; where they want us to be, how they want us to accompany the procession, etc. The same goes for these volunteer groups. They coordinate with the family and adhere to their wishes. Nothing is planned without family approval in the first place.
Why must it be approved by the director? That's like nazi germany!! I hear you cry. :rolleyes:
-No, it must be approved by the director, because .....if you remember, the volunteer groups cannot read a prayer that is not first approved by the family and the director. The idea is that the family has to want the prayer being read by the volunteer group to be read by the volunteer group. So, once this is established-the fact the family would like a certain prayer read by the volunteer group at their funeral-the volunteer group can read away. However, before the volunteer group can read a prayer at said funeral, it must be approved by the funeral director. Remember, to stop volunteer groups from reading prayers at funerals willy nilly, they must first be approved by the director of the cemetery.
See all of the above explanations.
Here's a scenario: The Waltons wanna bury Grampa Joe, a Marine. HHhmmm...who do they talk to about organizing the funeral? maybe the cemetery director? Maybe not. Either way, they talk to someone in charge of ceremonies at the cemetery. Lets imagine a representative. The representative sits down with the bereaved family. It's at this point that a discussion regarding prayers happens. The family produce Grampa's favorite prayer, "Here," Mrs. Walton says. "This is his favorite prayer. Please can we have this prayer read at his funeral?" "Why, of course you can," answers the representative.
Doesn't happen.
Now, notice this cemetery representative did not answer with, "Whoa!...hang on a second. Our director has to approve all prayers first. She may not like your prayer."
No, Ocasio herself did.
To continue: Standing outside the main building, like sprinters poised awaiting the starter's gun, the volunteer groups eagerly awaits their opportunity to honor the fallen vets with their ceremonies etc. In an office somewhere in the main building the representative diligently delivers the message from the Waltons that they would like a prayer read at the funeral to .....dun dun dun......Arleen Ocasio, the funeral director.
Ludicrous. It doesn't happen like this.
Now, notice that Ocasio does not read the prayer and say, "Oh no....they're Christians....ugh. I don't like the way this prayer sounds," and as she bangs her desk with a hammer fist making everything on the desk to bounce she shouts, 'I disprove of this prayer!!!!" :rolleyes:
I have never been to a military funeral. Christianity is preached at a Christian funeral. it really is...considering the definition of the word preach and all...
And here you have your problem. You have no idea what actually happens at military funerals or the protocol involved. You have been pulling your opinions out of your fourth point of contact. Before you start running your mouth, you need to have some knowledge about you are talking about.
"A default" funeral is a term I coined in this discussion. It describes the funeral that would be performed without any input from the family and before Ocasio started wanting to approve prayers at the funerals. I.E. a funeral where the volunteers were happy. A funeral they all knew, grew up with, and believed in; a funeral in which they could pray, tell family members at the funeral, "God bless," and hand out condolence cards with those words printed inside them. The way a funeral should be, right? Fuck you if don't believe in God or would at least rather not have God and Jesus mentioned at your funeral.
This obviously comes from your lack of knowledge about military funerals. There is no such thing as a "default funeral" nor any arrangements WITHOUT family input. The only time this may occur is in the event of a homeless vet with no known family or unknown soldier's funeral.
An awareness of the fact that not everyone wants the "default" funeral.
Director of the cemetery.
The articles online. I have nothing else.
You did not get any of this info from articles posted a month ago, only from those you posted today which were written a month later.
It seems what this really is is the requirement of of requesting Christian prayer to be included in the funeral verses requesting prayer not be included in the funeral. The Christians would like to not have to request that prayer be included in thair funerals. I mean why should they? This is a Christian nation blah blah blah.... If you don't want Christianity in your funeral then you have to do the requesting!!
Again, this displays your lack of knowledge about military funeral protocol.
This mentality leaves the default funeral as a Christian funeral.
See all explanations above.
Ocasio seems to feel that the default funeral should be without one particular religion, and that to have religion included in your funeral, you should have to want it, and therefore, request it. For the religion to be included in the funeral, it must be approved by the funeral director, so once it is requested, she approves it.
Not supported by available information.
Now for some quotes from the very articles that you provided:
VA policy that all burial ceremonies are to respect the family's wishes with respect to the inclusion or exclusion of religious text. Volunteers are trained not to insert their own religious beliefs in lieu of the family's request.
The Guidelines seek to ensure that the religious preferences, if any, of families of deceased Veterans are fully respected, and they specifically say that the honor guards may read scripture or a brief prayer if the family makes such a request to the honor guard team and the family does not provide its own clergy...
The family makes these decisions - not Ocasio.
The five-term lawmaker said he secretly attended a burial service July 8 at the 419-acre cemetery, where he heard members of a voluntary honor guard from Veterans of Foreign Wars District 4 and National Memorial Ladies describe alleged interference by cemetery officials in Christian recitations that included references to "God."
The lawmaker said he planned to present as many as 25 sworn affidavits from VFW volunteers and veterans' family members to VA Secretary Eric Shinseki at a meeting today to urge agency officials to end the alleged interference in services.
Been to a couple of funerals in my time and it has been my experience that those in mourning and those offering heartfelt condolences show a huge amount of tolerance and acceptance in how those feelings are expressed. Maybe I've been lucky that the honor guards I've encountered weren't excessively obese or covert members of the Westboro Baptist Church attempting to hand out 'God Hates America' cupcakes with sprinkles on top to those in attendance.
Is this a great country or what? ;)
Richard :munchin
The additional questions I have include:
What motivated Ms. Ocasio?
Did a relative of a decedent complain?
If so, was the complaint valid?
Was it offered confidentially?
Or anonymously?
(Or out of malice?)
Did she receive direction from higher ups to fix something that wasn't broken?
Is this an example of a well-intended administrator failing to communicate empathetically with volunteers? (Could this confrontation been avoided has Ocasio raised the issue in a more timely manner and in a face to face meeting?)
@Madeinengland. From one back bencher to another. I think you and I are in general agreement on this issue. That being said, I think the way you are trying to make your points does more to undermine the efficacy of your argument than to advance it.
madeinengland
07-22-2011, 07:51
As the sources you have posted are dated more than a month after the original clips, those within the VA are trying to mitigate the damage done by the original complaint. Notice you could not make the same quotes from the articles a month ago.
Ok, please listen.
The reason for, "Notice you could not make the same quotes from the articles a month ago," is because the "same quotes" weren't necessary for a person with a critical thinking mind to decipher why the original stories had been worded in such a way.
Ask yourself, why is that I, madeinengland, was able to preempt the newer articles? How was I able to look past the headline?
I will come back to the reasons why, because they are the problem you are having with this whole issue.
...snip...
I have no experience with military funerals, no. I can't read Ocasio's mind, no. Enough said. My scenario was a futile attempt at getting the point across to you. which point? The one and only point that you at present cannot see...or so it seems.
The family makes these decisions - not Ocasio.
Ok....now this seems to be the crux of the entire misunderstanding or inability to grasp the concept of what I am about to attempt to explain once again.
The family makes the decision, not Ocasio. I gather from this statement that you (I feel I covered this in my scenario, but you seemed distracted by the inaccuracies of the scenario rather than the point being made, so you missed it; so I will repeat it) believe that Ocasio only wants to review the prayers of the family members so she can check it out and see if she likes it or not. She wants to see if it offends her evil, satan-worshiping, atheistic sensibilities, for if it does, she will not approve it; and, therefore, the family will not be getting a volunteer group saying their prayer at their funeral.
That's what she did with Pastor Rainey's prayer!! I hear you cry.
Forget Pastor Rainey for a minute. She wanted to censor his prayer as not to show support for any one particular religion. This is silly, as he is a Christian Pastor and was asked say a prayer at the ceremony. What did they expect him to do? This case was taken to court and a conclusion decided upon. Pastor Rainey was not a dead veteran, a family member of a dead veteran, nor was he an offical VA supported volunteer group, so put him out of your mind, please. As mush as you are screaming, "But that's the whole point!!! Ocasio is trying to censor prayers!!!!! AAAAARRRGGGHHHH!!!!" Please, just forgot about it for now. You must let it go to be able to understand this present issue you are having grasping the following concept.
So, we have established that you make the statement, The family makes these decisions - not Ocasio, because she is evil and wants to edit everyone's prayers.
No, this is wrong. She does not want to do this, and she cannot do this. To do such a thing is to violate the constitutional rights enjoyed be people like me and protected by people like you. This is the reason why everyone is so pissed. This is the reason the articles were worded in such a way-to cause hysteria! Hysteria and uproar!! This is what sells news papers. OMG our constitutional rights are under fire! And the one that really gets people fired up-our religious freedoms are being compromised!
Read the VA's response. It's quite clear the funeral can have as many prayers as possible as long as the family (1) wants it, (2) requests it, and (3) it is approved by Ocasio.
Now, I hear the uproar again. But why does it have to be approved by Ocasio!!!???
Remember that Ocasio cannot legally sit at her desk and edit or not allow the prayers of family members or the prayers of VA volunteer groups at a funeral if the family wants it so......she cannot do this. No where has this been done, for if it had, it would be printed so hugely big massive in the article that would not have missed it and would have no trouble providing evidence of it (forget Pastor Rainey for his relationship to this statement-Remember that Ocasio cannot legally sit at her desk and edit or not allow the prayers of family members or the prayers of VA volunteer groups at a funeral if the family wants it so is over. He is neither a VA volunteer group nor a family member).
But why must she approve the prayers etc.??? It says right here in the article, "Must be approved by Ocasio ......"
1.) She runs the cemetery.
2.) VA volunteer groups can't pray etc. at funerals at this cemetery unless the family is cool with it.
3.) She runs the cemetery.
We can do a math equation to explain maybe.....
A. Family wants prayer in funeral.
B. Volunteer group is not allowed to pray unless family is cool with it.
C. Ocasio runs the cemetery.
D. Funeral with prayer.
A+B+C=D
Take away C, and D is no longer possible.
madeinengland
07-22-2011, 08:03
You go to macdonalds, because you want a bigmac.
You go to the cashier to order a bigmac. You want extra cheese on the bigmac. Fuck the cashier. You walk right past them into the kitchen and tell the burger chef, "Yo, extra cheese!." The Chef is gonna tell you OK, go tell the cashier and pay for it. You go do that, you get your bigmac with extra cheese.
You=the family member
The bigmac=the funeral
the extra cheese=the prayer etc. of the volunteer groups
the cashier=Ocasio
the chef=the volunteer group
the order/money exchange=you submitting your prayer/requesting the groups pray
Its so simple to me.
The way you see it? One of two ways as far as I can tell.
1.You walk into macdonalds and tell the cashier, "I'll have a bigmac please," and you get the burger but are pissed because there is no extra cheese. "Why is there no extra cheese? This is an extra cheese country!" The cashiers tells you, "You didn't order any."
2. You walk into macdonalds and order a bigmac with extra cheese. The cashier tells you to go fuck yourself because she doesn't like extra cheese.
You see the mistake you are making?
The change Ocasio has made is that now instead of automatically getting extra cheese on your bigmac, you gotta order it first. Why? Coz you may not want extra cheese. Why do you have to order it from the cashier? Why can't you just go tell the chef? Coz that's how macdonalds works.
ZonieDiver
07-22-2011, 09:08
<the entire Big Mac analogy>
What?????:confused:
Your entire diatribe.
The problem with our little conversations has been that you were adding your own interpretations and opinions of what had occurred, and appeared to be reading something into the articles which was not there. The original complaints were that Ocasio was acting unilaterally, and preemptively, without considering anyone's wishes. The responses, a month later, were completely predictable and expected, as VA attempts to mitigate the actions of an employee that has placed them in a bad spotlight.
You have made incorrect assumptions concerning how volunteer groups operate and are involved in military funerals. They do not just show up and follow their own agenda, other than the WBC idiots occassionally.
You have made incorrect assumptions concerning the nature of faith observances at a military funeral. No one will push their beliefs on a family who does not wish it. Military funeral attendees have too much respect for the servicemember and the family for that.
Surf n Turf
07-23-2011, 10:34
1.) She runs the cemetery.
C. Ocasio runs the cemetery.
Maybe not for long ;)
SnT
Culberson Issues Ultimatum to Cemetery Director
Threatens to 'zero out' her salary.
A Houston congressman is so upset with the director of the local National Cemetery, he's threatening to "zero out" her salary unless she quits or moves elsewhere.
John Culberson is one of several Texas lawmakers upset by accusations that Arleen Ocasio won't let are veterans use "God" or "Jesus" during military services. And the Republican says he'll use his position on a House Appropriations sub-committee to force Ocasio to step down.
She cannot work for the VA anywhere in Texas," he says.
"I've told them she has to be transferred north of the Red River, east of the Sabine River or west of El Paso; she's not working in Texas anymore."
http://www.ktrh.com/cc-common/news/sections/newsarticle.html?feed=121300&article=8867698#ixzz1Sr1tfFPb