View Full Version : The President's Match
An interesting read:
A Short History of The President's Match and The President's 100 (http://www.odcmp.com/Competitions/PresidentsMatchHistory.pdf)
MK262MOD1
06-15-2011, 20:25
Hap is a great guy. I have shot with him and his brother a few times. His writing on the national matches(high power and small bore are classics) He also has a history of the distinguished program out there.
His writings are well researched and very interesting.
MK262M1 sends
The Reaper
06-15-2011, 20:36
Good read, some familiar names there.
Thanks!
TR
I was stationed at HQ TASCOM with LTC Sydney Hines (SF), who was a President's 100 shooter with both pistol & rifle.. His Father Colonel Sydney Hines, SR was also President's 100 with both pistol & rifle.
After getting out of the Army and entering Law Enforcement I had the pleasure of working with Monterey County Sheriffs Office Detective Paul Keene who was a President's 100 with the pistol. Paul and I produced a seminar which featured Marine Gunnery Carlos Hathcock, who won the Camp Perry Shooting championship!
MK262MOD1
11-17-2011, 04:14
For those interested. Hap has finished a history of the Rattle Battle as well. I have a copy but cant attach it.
My understanding is it is also available here... http://www.theblindhogs.com/frmh.htm
If the link is broke please tell me and I will remove it and try to get a copy attached.
frostfire
11-19-2011, 01:10
ah, the good 'ol blind hogs! The folks I'm always thankful for for showing me that shooting is not a spectator sport :D
Glad to hear they are doing well in 2001 match. We/them jewjuns sure know how to shoot
frostfire
07-04-2017, 06:04
After years of painstaking effort, $$$, tendonitis, arthritis, tenosynovitis, sweat and literal blood (got to keep that extra high grip on M9 for one hand recoil management. Getting the thumb pip shaved off is part of the fun), I finally earned the long(est) :D tab. The good Lord granted just enough light, wind, muscle tension, and presence of mind.
Came real close for past several times, but apparently the good Lord does not want me to just barely make it, but actually master the craft and end up in top 20%. If you told me years ago or even a year ago I could sling 5 rounds in a row to < 2 inches at 50 yards standing one handed unsupported I would not have believed you.
It all started with TS' hole-in-hole standard over a decade ago and that sets this obsessive pursuit of surgical marksmanship. I have learned so much from the practitioners here, so thank you TS, TR, Peregrino, NDD, Snaquebite, master Rick, master Gene Econ for showing me that it does not need to be easy, just possible.
Was surprised to see folks from division, SF, and SMU at Perry. One memorable comment went like this:
Before the national matches: Yeah bro, we perform better under pressure (I had no reason to doubt him. He's 3 gun champion, destroyed All Army, and overall better lead slinger, on and off competition)
After the national matches: I QUIT! F@@k THIS S***T! :D
That was hilarious as hell. I hope I get to do knowledge dump before their 2nd attempt.
I've saved this joke for many years....without further due...
my tab is longer than y..:p
ok, I'll show myself to the door now
Congratulation,, Well Done.. :lifter:lifter
For those that are curious..
Congrats .. Well done.....
You're half way there. Now go get the one for the rifle!
Good job. :lifter
Congrats to you frostfire !
sfshooter
07-04-2017, 10:53
Congratulations to you sir! I have only ever met one man who wore that tab. He was my sniper squad leader in Korea....came from AMU and went back to AMU after the tour.
The Reaper
07-04-2017, 14:11
Congratulations!
Well deserved.
It has indeed been a long road.
I imagine wearing that around the hospital will get you some looks. :D
TR
Team Sergeant
07-04-2017, 15:09
Well done.
A few years in the service I wanted to try out but could never get there, was always something going on during that time period.
Given the time and opportunity SF would be a large part of that "list" I'm sure. Hell in the ole days our guys are "lucky" to get the time and command sponsorship to attend the annual snipers comps.
Again, well done.
Well done! Let's be honest, though--you pulled a shot or two in past competitions, waiting until you could get the right guy to sign your letter. ;)
2018commo
07-04-2017, 17:59
Congratulations, well deserved. I just started my journey down the Service Rifle rabbit hole, hope to see you at Camp Atterbury some day.
AO sends
Peregrino
07-04-2017, 19:05
Yup. Half way there. :p
Seriously - Congratulations. You certainly worked long enough and hard enough to earn it.
(You sticking around - or going back up - for the rifle match? Maybe making it a twofer this year?)
frostfire
07-05-2017, 14:35
thank you for the kind words, gents
Congratulations, well deserved. I just started my journey down the Service Rifle rabbit hole, hope to see you at Camp Atterbury some day.
AO sends
rabbit hole is the perfect description. For anyone stubborn or masochistic enough to pursue this, learn from my example of poor intel. Truthfully, I went all in thinking there is one hundred NEW tab earners each year. How hard can it be? Shoot in top 100 out of 500 to 1500 competitors. Big deal...
Imagine my look of shock when I discovered the first year I went that there are only 5 to 15 new tabs each year. The rest are friggin badge/tab protector :eek: AMU and Marines shooting team, then there are folks who've shot longer than I've lived with twice my age and bmi and have nothing better to do but reload that perfect-one-hole-accuracy-with-near-zero recoil out of their 1911's
So it's like going to sapper, ranger, ect with 90% of your peers voting you off from the get go!
now I see why it took some 10+ years to earn it and for most they never got it.
Well done! Let's be honest, though--you pulled a shot or two in past competitions, waiting until you could get the right guy to sign your letter. ;)
You Sir, have a keen eye/mind for subtleties. From now on that will be my answer to anyone asking what took me so long :cool:
Yup. Half way there. :p
Seriously - Congratulations. You certainly worked long enough and hard enough to earn it.
(You sticking around - or going back up - for the rifle match? Maybe making it a twofer this year?)
Not shooting the rifle. Going to get distinguished first and get more experience. Perry is the ultimate cross/tail wind galore from hell. Now that my hold and squeeze are squared away, I have to get my wind/mirage reading(even while shooting) dead on. Hopefully the 3gun/prs bug doesn't get me first though....
bblhead672
07-05-2017, 14:59
I finally earned the long(est) :D tab.
Congrats! I had never heard of The President's Match before now, but after reading about it I am highly impressed.
Congratulations Frostfire. That is a hell of an accomplishment!
Frostfire,
Congratulations, all that persistence paid off. Having witnessed your dedication and determination, I know that it is well earned.
Congrts, Frosty! :lifter
Pat
Badger52
07-08-2017, 06:38
Can't believe I missed this.
Congratulations Frostfire!
:lifter
Congrats Frostfire! Well done!
frostfire
07-09-2017, 17:54
thank you folks!
Best wishes to anyone pursuing this 100+ years old tab. I will guarantee this though. Tab or no tab, in the journey you WILL become a better trigger puller. Master Gene Econ wrote once "train the eyes to see and the finger to move." Well, now that I am back to two-handed shooting, I see "things" I had never seen before. Did a bill drill with G26, regular 1-2-3-4-5 pace and I could see the front sight movement the entire time and shell ejection. All holes fit to half dollar bill with some touching. It's jedi kind of weird, but slinging lead to 3 inches circle at 25 yards one handed five times in 10 seconds will force you to develop to that level. I see massive improvement in rifle run and gun as well. Even the 3-gun champion SMU guy I met concurred as he told me now he can call his shots better just by recognizing how his last-second squeeze feel, and make subsequent correction immediately.
As a side note from the national match, God bless THE Rob Leatham. It takes a true professional coming from a discipline winning multiple world championship to another where you get a**kicked year after year. Very humble and knowledgeable guy. He and a few AMU action shooter switching to bullseye verify my suspicion that it's easier to teach someone accurate to go faster than someone faster to slow down and be more accurate. Rob did make the 100th in one year. I asked him what brought him to this non-youtube-worthy-slighly-better-than-watching-grass-grow discipline, and he answered " a moment of weakness" :D
Badger52
07-09-2017, 22:20
He and a few AMU action shooter switching to bullseye verify my suspicion that it's easier to teach someone accurate to go faster than someone faster to slow down and be more accurate.That's a great observation. I saw this in another pistol discipline as well; the best ones under the crunch (or when at a Master-class match where everyone was handed identical stock guns) were those that had cut their teeth on Bullseye. In an environment where your time gets added to for misses, accuracy still counts. Two things my coach said to me at the time about the course of fire stuck with me: "You can't miss fast enough to win" and "Shoot it clean; you'll get faster when you get bored."
Again, congrats. :cool:
frostfire
07-12-2017, 13:25
I've received several inquiries for the pistol as well as advice from QP/board members, so I thought I post my system. As I recall more details, I will edit, organize, and add more. My goal is to set the next person with resources and shorten the learning curve.
Given the time and opportunity SF would be a large part of that "list" I'm sure.
FWIW, I concur with TS. I think SF already got the final part, or the mental game down. Several SF/SMU I met at Perry only took two tries to get the tab. I also met former commander of B/2/3, CPT W. few years back. Not sure if he got the tab or not.
Following Master Gene Econ's coaching structure, I divide the primer to three elements: technical, physical and mental.
TECHNICAL
Probably the main obstacle is cost. Gone are the days when everybody got the same wrist-breaking govt issued 230 grain ball ammo. So in a way, there is "race gear" involved. If you're an outstanding reloader then you're ahead of the game.
Decide to pursue rifle vs. pistol. While it is arguable which one is easier, I can say overall cost wise pistol is cheaper. With rifle, unless you got sling, glove, jacket, solid spotting scope, 80grainer for the 600 yards, and so on, you don't get to be competitive. Furthermore, to get good at 600, you must shoot at 600. Hard to learn wind/mirage reading indoor. So that means gas money, range membership, kestrel etc. With $$$ concerned, pistol is the way to go because:
- You don't have to have what the pros use to be competitive. Ignore the fancy pistol box and scope you see. You'd see folks in the P100 with shirt and shorts and bino. I only carried a range bag and a monocular. They were enough. You won't be rapidly scoping between shots like rifle.
- You can master the MOST important part, squeeze, indoor. Remember what the sight picture look like at 50 and 25, draw black circle on a tape, put on wall, then adjust distance accordingly. Too easy.
- At 25 yards, you don't need match rounds. Regular Winchester white box will hold the black or 9 even 10 ring. I used defender ammo 115 gr for practice. Good solid guys. From all army, I learned the military ball ammo can hold the black or 8 ring at 50. The trend of the scores for the last 50 years show that if you shoot 87 and above average, you're a solid contender.
- IMHOO, you don't need $2000+ custom made 1911 or 92FS to make the list. There's so much user error involved, I've seen the same pistol make two very different scores shot by two different people (with different skills). You can't and won't buy performance, but once you're shooting expert/master score, a custom built 1911 will aid you to the next level. At least, that was my experience.
So in a nutshell, invest in a decent pistol with match grade barrel, fitting, sights, trigger job, and you're GTG. An easy route would be to get a Range Officer 1911 and send it to Dave Salyer. The easier route is to buy my 92FS :D
Get a clear optic that can see 9mm hole at 50 yards, eye patch as necessary, sight black (or lighter and tape), some Atlanta Arms match ammo and you're set. The fee to shoot P100 is $40. Practice at home range, attend your local bulleye match to get used to turning target and pace, then go to Perry. If you can practice not under cover with some wind and rain, even better.
You can print your own targets and save $$$ for ammo(well, if you get to the point you can't miss 8"x11" at 50 yards)
https://pistol-forum.com/attachment....3&d=1322428760
https://pistol-forum.com/attachment....1&d=1322428748
Get used to the match command and course of fire (you got turning target instead of horn in actual match)
https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/bullseye-range-commands/id605820809?mt=8
and course of fire
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.demansol.bullseye&hl=en
http://thecmp.org/competitions/cmp-n...-pistol-match/
PHYSICAL
Plenty resources at http://www.bullseyepistol.com/ and no need for coach until you peruse http://www.bullseyepistol.com/amucover.htm
Granted, nothing beats doing and self discovery. A coach or even observer can reveal much. A video app that can do slow mo.
https://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/hudl-technique-slow-motion-video-analysis/id470428362?mt=8
Find the body position that suits you best, I use a mixed technique. I put support hand in pocket, grab and twist the fabric and keep it straight pushed down at my side. So it's like a second spine. I rotate and pull my shooting arm back, so there's no lax . These facilitates recoil mgmt and rapid recovery.
Find where you are at currently. A good way to gauge preparedness is just with a regular M9 with regular army issue ball 9mm at the rapid/timed target at 25 yards in 20 seconds standing one handed. Figure out the hold-off to land lead on the bullseye then try the above. If you can keep them all on paper or better yet, 8 ring, then you are off to a good start.
Train the eyes to see:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7V-TZtLDmm0
Notice several times the sight picture suggest the round will be off the black, but it still lands on x and 10. It's an optical illusion. There's more margin of error than what the eye can perceive, but the moment you try to muscle it back to black, you will yank the shot. The rifle's command detonate does not work here. The method is area aiming. Accept that wobble zone then just concentrate on straight, uninterrupted squeeze. Also keeps in mind with the wobble from a beating heart, what you see is always "in the past." By the time the primer ignites, the sights are not where you saw it last.
Train the finger to move:
Dry fire with eyes closed. See a perfect sight alignment, close eye, (squeeze while concentrating on any tension with each finger, palm, etc.) open eye. If that alignment is not perfect, adjust grip and pay closer attention to the finger position on trigger. Find that perfect grip and pull FOR YOU. Do the same, but start from trigger all the way back. See perfect alignment, close eye, reset, squeeze, open eye. Now do the same but pointing at that black dot at the wall. IMHOO, until you see perfection here doing live fire is a waste of time and money. Once there, do ball and dummy but one handed until there's zero anticipation. Get used to the recoil and actively push the hand back to full extension with every shot. Get a solid follow through.
I also do a lot of isometric exercise with 15 lbs dumbell. Hold for 1 minute x 10. Also a lot of core, shoulder, and back. Finally, a solid cardio for low resting HR. When I do real well at 50, my HR is in the 40 and 50's. With these, you will notice smaller and smaller wobble zone.
MENTAL
I honestly believe this is the most crucial part. The years when I did not make it, I had plan B and told myself this and that, and it's ok if I don't get it because yada yada. This year, there are ZERO negative thoughts. I pro-actively flushed them away. Even when I shot far below 87 in first string. Good or bad shot, the next shot is always the first shot and you give it all. Greg Plitt's talks on the crucible of fear and failure help me a lot. He also stresses how matches are won not during the event, but during the countless hours beating on your craft with no one keeping you accountable but you.
How about wind and rain? What wind, and what rain? Brian Zins told me that first year I showed up and it took me two years to get it. I shot highest rapid fire during wind. You'll see folks show up with extra huge boxes thinking it can serve as a shield. Well, a mind shield is better than a physical. Find the lull or find the steady focus regardless of environment.
Even during dry fire, build your shooting process. Mine is build grip, dry fire, load, press check, build stance, verify sight alignment, verify target, wait for commands, then, I say over and over "squeeze" during timed fire, and "move" during rapid. I never count rounds, or time, or score until the match is over. During slow, do the same but I just did the good 'ol T-11 or UH60 jump count 1000 to 6000. If no shot breaks, I force myself to drop the gun and start over. I shed all ego of thinking "it's a perfect sight picture, i got this!" and breaking the shot shaking all over.
A solid mental focus from one of the multi-champion:
https://firearmusernetwork.com/2014/01/08/rob-mango-the-flow-of-shooting/
Also do EIC matches to get used to applying all the above.
Who knows...in the process of chasing the tab before you know it you got distinguished! :cool:
Sinister
09-03-2017, 18:57
Congrats, man! I've been off the board for a while -- and this is fantastic news!
At one time I knew all five SF/SMU guys who had President's-SF-Ranger tabs at the same time. It confuses youngsters.
http://i43.tinypic.com/205d3ic.jpg
frostfire
09-03-2017, 23:49
Congrats, man! I've been off the board for a while -- and this is fantastic news!
At one time I knew all five SF/SMU guys who had President's-SF-Ranger tabs at the same time. It confuses youngsters.
http://i43.tinypic.com/205d3ic.jpg
thanks Sinister!
You may know him too, but there's a SGM (ret) W with four stacks but he couldn't bring himself to put the "longest tab" above the long tab in keeping with regulations.
When we walked around Bragg you could imagine some of the looks he got but no one dared to correct him :D
frostfire
11-28-2018, 06:16
just a quick shout out and shameless horn tooting...
Best wishes to all pursuing the journey down the rabbit hole. Tab or no tab, you will become a better lead slinger. Guaranteed.
When you force your brain to train your eye-body-grip-finger coordination to ridiculous neural pathway level, your skill will not stay at the same level. Ever.
So there I was slinging some lead after 1 year overseas with no trigger time. I fully expected skill deterioration. Only warm up I did was 10 min dry fire the previous night, and three slow fire. I only had a leftover box of 37 round so I thought what the hell, let's just have some fun.
CSAT standard: 5 to A zone 1 to face, 3 seconds, 7 yards, compressed ready. In the past, I struggled to make it in time with concealment. No highspeed equipment, just what I had from storage: G26 w grip tape, waffle top for concealment, advanced holster minimalist holster (bought from John, shootersupply) 5 o'clock position, hands stretched down. I checked the timer and 1st shot at 1.5, 0.20 average split for next 5 shots with 0.31 transition to face for a total of 2.91 seconds. That front sight danced in slow mo the whole time and I could recall brass ejection in peripheral vision with every shot. Switched to the AK pistol (red dot and ALG) and did it in 1.8 seconds. Average split 0.17
Well there you have it folks. Slow, watching-grass-grow boring, non YT worthy, high drag fundamental does improve the speed department as well :)
Glad to see shooters here. I knew and shot with Sydney Hines and know Hap as well.
I made P100 twice, (12th and 98th), Distinguished Rifle #514, Distinguished Smallbore Prone, two US Palma Teams, two US Dewar Teams, first person to win Palma Trophy Match twice in a row. Now there are two of us.
My last match was 2013 right before Perry, got rearended and had spinal surgery fusing C5,6 and 7 with plate and that ended my competition.
I not only miss the shooting but what I really miss is the people I shot with for 40 years. My first HP match was 1973 and I was squadded with AMU shooter Earl Waterman and we were good friends until he died.
Glad to see shooters here. I knew and shot with Sydney Hines and know Hap as well.
I made P100 twice, (12th and 98th), Distinguished Rifle #514, Distinguished Smallbore Prone, two US Palma Teams, two US Dewar Teams, first person to win Palma Trophy Match twice in a row. Now there are two of us.
My last match was 2013 right before Perry, got rearended and had spinal surgery fusing C5,6 and 7 with plate and that ended my competition.
I not only miss the shooting but what I really miss is the people I shot with for 40 years. My first HP match was 1973 and I was squadded with AMU shooter Earl Waterman and we were good friends until he died.
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