View Full Version : Oops
Roguish Lawyer
05-31-2011, 19:28
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2011/05/lapd-officer-accidentally-shoots-himself-at-firing-range.html
LAPD officer suffers self-inflicted wound at firing range
May 31, 2011 | 1:01 pm
A Los Angeles Police Department officer was hospitalized with a gunshot wound to the thigh Tuesday after he fell at a San Fernando Valley firing range and accidentally shot himself.
The shooting took place around 10 a.m. at the Angeles Range during what was described as a routine training exercise, according to officials familiar with the incident.
The officer, who was not immediately identified, was transported to a local hospital for non-life-threatening injuries.
Assigned to the West Valley Division, the officer was "performing a tactical movement" during the training exercise when he tripped and fell. Somehow his gun went off and a bullet hit him in the thigh, officials said.
swatsurgeon
05-31-2011, 19:41
when you don't follow the rules of shooting, i.e. keep finger off the trigger until ready to shoot a 'target', this is what can happen. The gun did not accidentally go off!!
Hope he heals quickly and develops repetitive task transfer to avoid being an annuity for a trauma surgeon! TRAINING, training, training.........
ss
Not cool to be doing a Monday Morning Quarterback of a Police Officer. :rolleyes:
Well, it was his gun and it was his leg............
when you don't follow the rules of shooting, i.e. keep finger off the trigger until ready to shoot a 'target', this is what can happen. The gun did not accidentally go off!!
Hope he heals quickly and develops repetitive task transfer to avoid being an annuity for a trauma surgeon! TRAINING, training, training.........
ss
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ain2by4Fums
You would think that after this made the rounds, even someone without firearms experience would realize that.
Roguish Lawyer
06-02-2011, 20:01
Not cool to be doing a Monday Morning Quarterback of a Police Officer. :rolleyes:
I consider myself a strong supporter of LEOs generally, but they are not immune from criticism just because they are LEOs. In fact, LEOs and soldiers are particularly blameworthy when incidents like this occur, as they should know better.
Not cool to be doing a Monday Morning Quarterback of a Police Officer. :rolleyes:
You clearly never worked for or with ANY of the people from ANY of the police agencies I ever worked for or with, LOL.
Monday Morning Quarterbacking is what cops and other related professions do best.
swatsurgeon
06-02-2011, 21:26
Not cool to be doing a Monday Morning Quarterback of a Police Officer. :rolleyes:
I have taken care of no less than 25 LEO's with 'self inflicted' GSW's...training, cleaning, playing, working, etc. I have never seen a gun go off that didn't have a digit or other part of someone's anatomy or gear pressing a trigger. Now can you really tell me that I shouldn't criticize an LEO or joe public when it happen to them as well....let's see, I believe I've cared for greater than 3500 -4000 (or more) GSW patients and I believe the offending problem has been something pulling the trigger on 99.9999% of them.....want to try again with your statement? Not trying to be an idiot or disrespectful of your opinion about this but your statement isn't justified. Accidental...nah, negligent is more like it in most cases.
ss
RL,
you are correct in your statement. Thanks for letting me see your side of the coin. I have always been respective to lawyers. Good or the bad one(s).
NOTE: A lawyer out of the Northeastern part of Ohio was sent down for a 25 year sentence in the same Prison he would send people down to. His charges were: sex for payment, Drugs for payment, Possession of Cocaine with intent to sell, Failure to tell Officers of the Law of an impending hit on a client or others.
But when it ends up that a person or persons who are "on the job and have been shot and murdered. In "The Line Of Duty"; initially, what should happen is to talk privately to other brothers and sisters about the incident and what mistakes were made and defiantly not in front of the public. There is however some vital learning on the incident. But, this is the time where we all feel the very"Distasteful to do"/"'Monday morning quarterbacking" comes into play and we do not like to criticize the dead.
axe,
I have over 30 years of Law Enforcement experience son. I have had my Glock out many, many more times I believe then you ever have. You are correct, in one aspect though. I have never worked in and/or any of the departments you have. How many years do you have in or did?:munchin
swatsurgeon,
Although you may be correct on a few occasions on your end of the spectrum, I am not convinced at all with the so-called number of people you have treated for GSW. I am assuming this was at least over a 10 - 15 year period. I am a little speculative with the numbers you have given me. Your stats are to me nothing more than hyperbole along with your comments. They are at best, helpful to the ER staff of a hospital then to an individual LEO. I can care less about your "Statistics" on the number of accidental discharges or the number of people you see in an ER. It has nothing to do with my statement. You should no better!
This is in answer to my response about my statement of "Monday Morning Quarterbacking". It comes from a very good magazine, sold only to Police Officers and governmental agencies, entitled "Police Marksman". It is the best in information that applies to the community of Police work which naturally includes military police.
Axe have you ever heard about it? I am going to assume the answer is a NO. If so you need to subscribe to it then, I would highly recommend it. You will get a lot of information out of it pertaining to "The Job" which includes all Law Enforcement Officers and Military Police. It has in some information saved a police officers lives because they had read an article pertaining new prison taught of handgun take-always. He read about it and it happened to him, but he had prepared himself for the counter movements. Actually a true story. We all do the same job.
Continuing on swatsurgeon. I also do not think your material present is anything ground breaking. It has been that way from the beginning of when Law Enforcement Officers being armed with handguns.
Also, why in the world do you think your own comments have anything to do with me personally? I never stated that you "cannot" do it, only that it is distasteful to do so. Your attempting to make a statement about yourself and about your experiences in the ER which has no real meaning unless you are a part of that community or the one who had the discharge.
Basically, Doc I feel your comment was not warranted, not useful, nor did it have anything to do with my initial comment, and was an attempt by you to do a little "Grand Standing" with the comment of "Negligence" on my part. Please think before you answer as it is irritating to those of us who work in the Law Enforcement Community. I recommend that you stay with MY Response instead of your own.
Bear in mind, that I was using the roll your eyes face on the end of my statement. I apologize for it if it directed others to respond with something more than just criticism.
Well, it was his gun and it was his leg...
Exactly, regardless of how "cool" it is to say so.
I have taken care of no less than 25 LEO's with 'self inflicted' GSW's...training, cleaning, playing, working, etc. I have never seen a gun go off that didn't have a digit or other part of someone's anatomy or gear pressing a trigger. Now can you really tell me that I shouldn't criticize an LEO or joe public when it happen to them as well....let's see, I believe I've cared for greater than 3500 -4000 (or more) GSW patients and I believe the offending problem has been something pulling the trigger on 99.9999% of them.....want to try again with your statement? Not trying to be an idiot or disrespectful of your opinion about this but your statement isn't justified. Accidental...nah, negligent is more like it in most cases.
ss
You mean like a Glock that you can't make safe, and when replacing the weapon in the holster the thumb brake strap enters the trigger guard and with pressure of inserting the weapon deep into the holster, BANG!, weapon fires, that kind of stuff?
Doc, if I ever shoot myself in the ass while holstering a weapon, I would be honored if you would so kindly "stitch the laces", surgeon's knot, locking knot, evenly spaced every 1/16" to reduce scaring, but only a little, because scars are cool, even if they are in the ass.
mojaveman
06-04-2011, 23:30
While a very young Military Policeman on my first overseas tour I think that I was more afraid of my cohorts than I was of anybody else. In eighteen months I witnessed no less than six negligent discharges. In only one incident was anyone injured. A young PFC was playing with his M1911A1 while he was sitting at a desk bored and fired a round through his calf. In all of the other cases the weapons were either fired into the air or into the ground. Looking back on all of that I think that more scheduled training might have helped the problem. We were on a tiny base in central Europe and didn't have access to a range so we never even had a chance to actually work with and fire our weapons.
swatsurgeon
06-05-2011, 00:50
RL,
you are correct in your statement. Thanks for letting me see your side of the coin. I have always been respective to lawyers. Good or the bad one(s).
NOTE: A lawyer out of the Northeastern part of Ohio was sent down for a 25 year sentence in the same Prison he would send people down to. His charges were: sex for payment, Drugs for payment, Possession of Cocaine with intent to sell, Failure to tell Officers of the Law of an impending hit on a client or others.
But when it ends up that a person or persons who are "on the job and have been shot and murdered. In "The Line Of Duty"; initially, what should happen is to talk privately to other brothers and sisters about the incident and what mistakes were made and defiantly not in front of the public. There is however some vital learning on the incident. But, this is the time where we all feel the very"Distasteful to do"/"'Monday morning quarterbacking" comes into play and we do not like to criticize the dead.
axe,
I have over 30 years of Law Enforcement experience son. I have had my Glock out many, many more times I believe then you ever have. You are correct, in one aspect though. I have never worked in and/or any of the departments you have. How many years do you have in or did?:munchin
swatsurgeon,
Although you may be correct on a few occasions on your end of the spectrum, I am not convinced at all with the so-called number of people you have treated for GSW. I am assuming this was at least over a 10 - 15 year period. I am a little speculative with the numbers you have given me. Your stats are to me nothing more than hyperbole along with your comments. They are at best, helpful to the ER staff of a hospital then to an individual LEO. I can care less about your "Statistics" on the number of accidental discharges or the number of people you see in an ER. It has nothing to do with my statement. You should no better!
This is in answer to my response about my statement of "Monday Morning Quarterbacking". It comes from a very good magazine, sold only to Police Officers and governmental agencies, entitled "Police Marksman". It is the best in information that applies to the community of Police work which naturally includes military police.
Axe have you ever heard about it? I am going to assume the answer is a NO. If so you need to subscribe to it then, I would highly recommend it. You will get a lot of information out of it pertaining to "The Job" which includes all Law Enforcement Officers and Military Police. It has in some information saved a police officers lives because they had read an article pertaining new prison taught of handgun take-always. He read about it and it happened to him, but he had prepared himself for the counter movements. Actually a true story. We all do the same job.
Continuing on swatsurgeon. I also do not think your material present is anything ground breaking. It has been that way from the beginning of when Law Enforcement Officers being armed with handguns.
Also, why in the world do you think your own comments have anything to do with me personally? I never stated that you "cannot" do it, only that it is distasteful to do so. Your attempting to make a statement about yourself and about your experiences in the ER which has no real meaning unless you are a part of that community or the one who had the discharge.
Basically, Doc I feel your comment was not warranted, not useful, nor did it have anything to do with my initial comment, and was an attempt by you to do a little "Grand Standing" with the comment of "Negligence" on my part. Please think before you answer as it is irritating to those of us who work in the Law Enforcement Community. I recommend that you stay with MY Response instead of your own.
Bear in mind, that I was using the roll your eyes face on the end of my statement. I apologize for it if it directed others to respond with something more than just criticism.
Ok, you get a response to your statement......
So when I was standing 10 feet from one of the officers I work with who had a negligent discharge because his finger was on the trigger when his weapon was pointed down just before an entry exercise, I must be talking out of my ass. He shot the toe of another officer.
Lets be clear, I have a healthy respect for LEO's, I am attending the reserve academy this fall, I have been a member (armed) of 4 SWAT teams, I don't have the experience you have relative to law enforcement but be mindful I don't do or say anything to inflate my ego when it comes to GSW or this subject. The number of GSW I have treated is as stated. I'm not an ER doc but am a trauma surgeon that trained in the second busiest Trauma ctr in America, personally caring for 2000 patients that year of which 35% were GSW patients...do the math for that year alone; I happen to care for 6 more this week, 2 of which were 'negligent discharges' by civilians . My point of the numbers is that accidental is a misnomer, someone or something pulled a trigger. Cops that I have treated for self inflicted wounds all say the same thing: "i screwed up" one way or another. So what exactly is your point I'm still trying to figure out...what was it about my statement that you disagree with? The negligence IS NOT ON YOUR PART>>>>>>> read my statement again, it is on the part of the person who generally shoots themselves or others, not on purpose. One of my closest friends killed his partner during a SWAT entry with a finger on the trigger, I spent too many hours with critical stress debrief with him and some of his other team mates to not understand. I'm not grandstanding, I speak and write on facts and opinions that come from experience just as I assume you do. Do I take some offense to your attitude, yes I do, I worked damn hard to get where I am both in Trauma surgery and law enforcement as a tactical medical provider. I have seen the effects of negligent discharges....look up the word accidental
websters dictionary: Definition of ACCIDENTAL
1: arising from extrinsic causes : incidental, nonessential
2a : occurring unexpectedly or by chance b : happening without intent or through carelessness and often with unfortunate results
All preventable if you apply it to a weapon and it's handling.
So back to the case at hand, what about my other statement do you or anyone else here take offense to.....? Lets hear from other LEOs.....
And one last thing, being a monday morning quarterback is how everyone learns and grows professionally, it's called the debrief if I'm not mistaken.
ss
SS,
You still do not get it, period. My statement that I entered, read it again. My intention was that it isn't cool to do that particular get together to talk about it. But, it must be done to learn from mistakes and to also learn what the Officer did right. Think about it SS. For example, an I will be the first to admit that I know nothing about what happens when a Patient dies while on the table. What happens after that for you? Do you have to do some varying degree of defending yourself? It is not cool to do it, but it still must be done, Right? Are you very happy at the time of death, jumping around on your twinkle toes. I would believe not Doc. I should of added two more statements to my response and maybe it would of made more sense to you.
What is needed here is for you and and I to just leave it alone and walk away from this subject. I will do it regardless if you do it or not. We both need a good ending to this looong argument. I was thinking that you were insulting me by calling me "Negligent". I will accept your opinion on everything else, just not that statement. Good luck and God Speed on your academy training.
Nuff said.
I deleted my post after reading it, and deciding that keeping ones mouth shut usually serves the purpose as well as anything else.
I have been a sworn LE officer for less years than you, MAB32.
Thank you for your service.
1stindoor
06-08-2011, 07:28
Let me first say that I have never been a law enforcement officer...of any type. However, I have owned, fired, trained with, and carried many "boomsticks" of varying sizes, types and calibers.
I have also never been a surgeon, PA, medic, or even a combat lifesaver...though I have applied bandages to more than one GSW during my course of my duties.
And...while never having served as a lawyer...I have successfully counseled (through the use of a JAG) many Soldiers on the negative effects of pissing off the 1SG.
All that being said...there's a few people that have their panties in waaaaay too many knots in this thread.
The Reaper
06-08-2011, 08:38
I agree, 1st.
There is way too much testosterone flowing here, and umbrage being taken where none was intended.
If you have an ND, you were stupid, period. I have had one, and I also had an AD that I will blame on a Winchester 1897 shotgun, which did not have a disconnector, and fired on closing the action, no finger on the trigger. I was unaware of this, but I was, in the first case, stupid, and in the second, ignorant.
The difference between an ND that you have to buy beer for, and an ND that you have to buy flowers for, is whether you were following the other rules of firearms safety.
In both of mine, the weapons were pointed in a safe direction with good backstops when I pulled the trigger or, in the Winchester's case, racked the slide.
The officer in question appears to have pulled the trigger when the muzzle of the weapon was pointed at his body. That is a stupid act. Period. The excuse that "the gun fired" while he was executing a tactical movement does not legitimize the act. He had his finger on the trigger, weapon pointed at the body. Clearly, a violation of two of the four safe firearms handling rules. Stupid. No excuse. Lesson learned, I hope.
And I trust swatsurgeon knows what he is talking about.
TR
It is over via a PM between myself and SS, TR. I WOULD want SS to work on me ANYTIME I am injured, however he is too far for me, which is a pity. But, because he has given me great advice as peddoc has too, I have always followed their expert advice and they both told me that I am near some great hospitals myself. Both are excellent in what they do, period. TR we have made up. Again enough said.:p
Mark
Dohhunter
06-10-2011, 07:12
Regardless, glad it wasn't more serious than a treatable injury.
Gun safety is something most people take for granted and/or at worst, are completely oblivious about. Case in point, look at Plaxico Burress, though that isn't a remotely fair comparison to a LEO.