View Full Version : Pics from Russian School Incident
NousDefionsDoc
09-04-2004, 08:57
http://www.goprocks.com/RussianVictims.html
The Reaper
09-04-2004, 09:26
Excellent Peters article about it:
TR
http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/opedcolumnists/28066.htm
I really like Peters and agree completely with what he wrote. However, I'm not sure Europe will get it. Le Figaro is reporting pretty much what happened, but then what? Just the usual condemnation.
In today's SvD (Svenska Dagbladet/Swedish Times) it is stated in clear text that "[...] this can only happen in Russia". SvD is the only right wing mainstream news paper here, but is usually objective.
Laila Freivalds, Swedish foreign minister
Foreign minister Laila Freivalds thinks that terrorists who use children as weapons have based all boundaries.
-You can't defend it in any way, says the foreign minister.
-I'm afraid that it can be a way to get maximum attention, fears Freivalds who doesn't want to express whether or not the Russian authorities ought to have acted differently.
Laila Freivalds believes that the drama is just one in a line that shows that nobody walks free from the effects of terrorism.
-The conflict needs a political solution, otherwise it might escalate, says Freivalds and adds that EU's criticism of the Russian government's policy on Chechnya still stands.
[hr]
Prime minister critical of Moscow
Prime minister Göran Persson yesterday commented the bloody solution to the hostage crisis.
-I feel rage and anger against terrorists who commit this type of acts [...] there is nothing that can defend this type of behavior.
-I take for granted that the Russian authorities have done what they could to save as many as possible of the hostages. Unfortunatelly, we now know that children have died and that is an devestating loss.
Sweden and the EU have criticised the Russian war and policy in Chechnya. Is there any reason to change that attitude?
-No, not the fundamental criticism [...] We're critical of the Russian Chechnian policy, but it doesn't make these types of acts righteous.
The US response and covering of the event was noted between the above ones.
On the page to the right the headline says "Putin feeds terrorism", with an article that goes on to explain 'why they're in this situation', and draws parallells to George W. Bush:
"The Russian president has, the same way as George W. Bush after September the 11th, had an attitude of "If you're not with me, you're against me"." (my emphasis)
Even the opinions of the Swedish Defense Institute goes on to explain the problems under these three headers:
Over reliance on military solutions.
No real negotiations.
Lack of respect for human lives.
While I know that Russia is not a saint, no criticism of the terrorists cause was printed, just the acts they led to.
I'd be very suprised if this leads to any European change of stance. Europe is too occupied with its imaginary existance as the concience of the world and to try to act as an authority on all subjects.
Just my .02
mffjm8509
09-04-2004, 10:33
Excellent Peters article about it:
TR
http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/opedcolumnists/28066.htm
The more I read Peters, the more I like him.
mp
Well, he has asked those questions which need to be addressed. Where are the Muslim "leaders" of the world? Too busy having a "peaceful" time to bother with this? Have they nothing to say? Where are you, the Islamic leaders in the United States?? Have you nothing to say? You disgust me you despicable vermin.
Thank you for saying what needs to be said Mr. Peters.
The Reaper
09-04-2004, 16:26
I really like Peters and agree completely with what he wrote.
Over reliance on military solutions.
No real negotiations.
Lack of respect for human lives.
While I know that Russia is not a saint, no criticism of the terrorists cause was printed, just the acts they led to.
I'd be very suprised if this leads to any European change of stance. Europe is too occupied with its imaginary existance as the concience of the world and to try to act as an authority on all subjects.
Just my .02
Martin:
I guess we know why it is called the Stockholm Syndrome.
TR
Well this upstanding religious leader doesn't have a problem killing kids.
I bet this guy is on Britain's watch list if not already.
The more I learn about Islam the more I see how hypocritical these fanatics are.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/09/05/wosse705.xml
Cleric supports targeting children
By Rajeev Syal
(Filed: 05/09/2004)
An extremist Islamic cleric based in Britain said yesterday that he would support hostage-taking at British schools if carried out by terrorists with a just cause.
Omar Bakri Mohammed, the spiritual leader of the extremist sect al-Muhajiroun, said that holding women and children hostage would be a reasonable course of action for a Muslim who has suffered under British rule.
In an interview with The Sunday Telegraph, Mr Mohammed said: "If an Iraqi Muslim carried out an attack like that in Britain, it would be justified because Britain has carried out acts of terrorism in Iraq.
"As long as the Iraqi did not deliberately kill women and children, and they were killed in the crossfire, that would be okey."
Mr Mohammed, 44, who lives in Edmonton, north London, but is originally from Syria, also claimed that the Chechen rebels were not responsible for the deaths of more than 350 people - at least half of them children - who are so far known to have died in Beslan.
"The Mujahideen [Chechen rebels] would not have wanted to kill those people, because it is strictly forbidden as a Muslim to deliberately kill women and children. It is the fault of the Russians," he said.
The father of seven came to Britain in 1985 after being deported from Saudi Arabia because of his membership of a banned group. He has since been given leave by the Home Office to remain in Britain for five years but the Government is reviewing his status.
He gave an interview yesterday to promote a "celebratory" conference in London next Saturday to commemorate the third anniversary of the September 11 attacks.
Andrew Dismore, the Labour MP for Hendon, was infuriated by Mr Mohammed's comments. "That sounds to me like incitement and I will report him to Scotland Yard," he said. "It is an insult to most moderate Muslims, who are sick of people like this claiming to represent them."
Sounds to me like this guy needs two to the head. :mad: What a twisted bastard.
Team Sergeant
09-06-2004, 08:04
Well this upstanding religious leader doesn't have a problem killing kids.
I bet this guy is on Britain's watch list if not already.
The more I learn about Islam the more I see how hypocritical these fanatics are.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/09/05/wosse705.xml
Cleric supports targeting children
By Rajeev Syal
(Filed: 05/09/2004)
An extremist Islamic cleric based in Britain said yesterday that he would support hostage-taking at British schools if carried out by terrorists with a just cause.
I read that article this morning, with utter disgust. I’m sure we (the United States) also have islamic clerics that profess the same beliefs. (Religious tolerance is wonderful.)
TS
http://www.hkpro.com/hkembassy.htm
Two words; Princess Gate.
Doc
TS I would bet the farm on it. Sometimes racial profiling doesn't look so bad.
Bravo1-3
09-06-2004, 14:51
Excellent article.
TS I would bet the farm on it. Sometimes racial profiling doesn't look so bad.
Does that make me a racist?
I wonder how far this is supposed to be interpreted.
[...] It is without doubt an agony for those behind the plans for a sustainment of the instability in Chechnya and therefore they don't stop to financially and morally support the Chechnyan "resistance".
In relation to this, I want to reiterate the lesson the Taliban regime of Afghanistan ought to have taught us. The Talibans were brought to power with support from certain outer forces with concrete aims. We know today what this led to.
Those within the EU who wonder how the terror acts could happen, should instead think about "the policy of double moral".
[EDIT: Corrected the date for the article.]
Ambush Master
09-07-2004, 09:01
We need to go ahead and take the steps to establish that "Radical Islam" is itself a form of "Government" and therefore a True State!!! Then, go after them and take down the leadership and ALL followers !!
Airbornelawyer
09-07-2004, 13:54
I wonder how far this is supposed to be interpreted.
Originally Posted by Nikolaj Sadchikov, Russian ambassador in Stockholm, SvD 07Sep04, page 5
[...] It is without doubt an agony for those behind the plans for a sustainment of the instability in Chechnya and therefore they don't stop to financially and morally support the Chechnyan "resistance".
In relation to this, I want to reiterate the lesson the Taliban regime of Afghanistan ought to have taught us. The Talibans were brought to power with support from certain outer forces with concrete aims. We know today what this led to.
Those within the EU who wonder how the terror acts could happen, should instead think about "the policy of double moral".
[EDIT: Corrected the date for the article.]
It is an attempt to link all Chechen rebels to the Islamist terrorists. Chechen opposition to Moscow is divided between Chechen nationalists who seek Chechnya's independence, Islamist radicals who want to ignite a holy war in all of the Caucasus and old-school bandits profiting from the chaos. Because of the experience of many Europeans under the Soviet thumb and because of the atrocious human rights record of the Russian government in the Chechen wars, the Chechen nationalists (but not the Islamists) have much support in Europe. By linking them to the terrorists, Russia wants to dry up this source of funding and sanctuary.
The specific target here is Aslan Maskhadov. A colonel in the Soviet Army, Maskhadov became Chief of Staff of the Chechen armed forces when Chechnya declared its independence under former Soviet Air Force general Dzhokhar Dudayev. Maskhadov led the successful guerrilla campaign in the First Chechen War (1994-96). Dudayev was killed in a rocket attack in April 1996, and Maskhadov was elected President in 1997 (beating, among other candidates, Shamil Basayev). The Chechen and Russian governments existed in an uneasy coexistence during that period. Maskhadov and Islamist warlords such as Basayev cooperated initially, but soon broke with each other.
In 1999, Chechen Islamists opposed to both Maskhadov's government and the Russians launched a series of attacks, including a raid into neighboring Dagestan. Then, in September 1999, a series of bombs went off in Russia, including one in an apartment complex. Putin immediately blamed the Chechens, though it is widely believed in Russia that the FSB actually set off the bombs, either as part of a CT exercise gone wrong or as a pretext to relaunch the war in Chechnya. The FSB refused to allow FBI forensics specialists to assist in the investigation.
Whatever the truth, relaunching the war is what Putin (former head of FSB) did. Avoiding the mistakes made in the first war, Russian forces overwhelmed Chechen forces and took Grozny, where they installed a pro-Russian government. The rebels fled to the hills and continued the guerrilla campaign, but have fractured even more than they had before.
An Arab, Ibn al-Khattab, was the main leader of the Islamist Chechens. He was poisoned in 2002. Shamil Basayev now has that role. Basayev led the 1995 Budyonnovsk hostage raid and the 1999 Dagestan raid. He has claimed "credit" for the 2002 Dubrovka Theatre raid led by Movsar Barayev, five suicide bombings in 2003, and many other acts. Among the dead terrorists in Beslan were several associates of Basayev.
Other Chechen "rebels" specialized more in banditry than war. Arbi Barayev, killed in 2001, was one - ransoming hostages was his specialty. Barayev did try to kill Maskhadov in 1999, though.
Notwithstanding Mr. Sadchikov, the lesson of the Taliban regime, if any, is that if you destroy your opponents, what may rise from the ashes may be even worse. Having almost completely destroyed the Chechen nationalists, the Russian government has only strengthened the Islamists. Further, the Islamists also know that when they strike, the Russians will either retaliate directly against the nationalists, further strengthening the Islamists, or randomly against all Chechens, further radicalizing them. So they have a perverse incentive to commit even more horrific acts of terrorism.
To judge by Mr. Sadchikov's remarks and other Russian government statements, it appears that Putin has chosen to continue this vicious cycle. Though, to be fair, I am not sure what choice he has. He could reach out to Maskhadov, and try to bring together his rebels and the pro-Russian government in Grozny, in order to marginalize the Islamists. But while Maskhadov is no Basayev or Bin Laden, he is not exactly innocent either (nor is Putin for that matter), and given what Russia has done to Chechnya, I doubt he would welcome the invite. And the bandit wing will continue its activities no matter what. It is inconceivable that Putin would reach out to a man he despises, and who despises him, with so little chance that anything positive will come out of it.
NousDefionsDoc
09-07-2004, 15:30
Having almost completely destroyed the Chechen nationalists, the Russian government has only strengthened the Islamists. Further, the Islamists also know that when they strike, the Russians will either retaliate directly against the nationalists, further strengthening the Islamists, or randomly against all Chechens, further radicalizing them. So they have a perverse incentive to commit even more horrific acts of terrorism.
Actually a fairly common strategy. I don't think it will work in this case because the repression will be complete. This "provocation to repression" strategy works with a government like the US that is unwilling to go the full distance with martial law, etc.. A classic of a failure of this strategy is what happened to the Tupamaros in Uruguay. They provoked to the point of changing a democratic government for a military dictatorship and were wiped out by it.
The holding area, a gymnasium, was very hot. Drinking water and food was withheld, this went on for days. Many resorted drinking their own urine. Many of the wounded were shot from the rear sector, as they fled. The intent was to gain maximum casualty count.
Other childern were raped and stabbed.