View Full Version : Police shooting
Police are saying he pointed the weapon at them but didn't shoot. Probably more to come on this story. This is why I especially hate Fox News. Fox news is baiting people with the false headline. He left the Marines five years ago.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/05/27/report-marine-fatally-shot-swat-team-did-open/?test=latestnews
If he pointed a weapon at them, hopefully at least two of them saw it, and they'll get no-billed.
Hard for me to believe they'd pop that many primers on an unarmed "victim".
Utah Bob
05-27-2011, 17:39
I'll wait to see the details of the warrant. I hope somebody didn't screw it up and hit the wrong house.
As I said in a discussion about midnight no knocks a few days ago ...
It's going to be real difficult to wake up, grab a weapon, and take on a swat team. It just happens too quickly.
I'd probably get plugged too.
I'll wait to see the details of the warrant. I hope somebody didn't screw it up and hit the wrong house.
As I said in a discussion about midnight no knocks a few days ago ...
It's going to be real difficult to wake up, grab a weapon, and take on a swat team. It just happens too quickly.
I'd probably get plugged too.
Out here, the SWAT team is also the guy who reads the water meter. If I wanted to avoid something like this episode, I'd just leave a note on the door that says "We're not home." :D
If he pointed a weapon at them, hopefully at least two of them saw it, and they'll get no-billed.
Hard for me to believe they'd pop that many primers on an unarmed "victim".
With High Cap mags. 22 rounds is not a lot from what it looked like, 3 shooters. But I get what you saying. He could of just fell back. Still pointing the gun in their direction. Thus they keep firing like they should of. God help them if that was a wrong house thou.
But police didn't storm a Marines house right outside Camp lejeune. Like Fox and CNN want you to think. CNN is saying the same thing. Marine Shot by Police. Plenty of ex Military get caught on the wrong side of the law. They should of added Teen to the headline, more views.
Utah Bob
05-27-2011, 17:48
Out here, the SWAT team is also the guy who reads the water meter. If I wanted to avoid something like this episode, I'd just leave a note on the door that says "We're not home." :D
Here, they have to borrow one from the next county.:D
With High Cap mags. 22 rounds is not a lot from what it looked like, 3 shooters. But I get what you saying. He could of just fell back. Still pointing the gun in their direction. Thus they keep firing like they should of. God help them if that was a wrong house thou.
But police didn't storm a Marines house right outside Camp lejeune. Like Fox and CNN want you to think. CNN is saying the same thing. Marine Shot by Police. Plenty of ex Military get caught on the wrong side of the law. They should of added Teen to the headline, more views.
I gotta say I have to agree with your angle on the headline to a certain extent. Coulda been more choicy with the description.
It doesn't look like the SWAT team made it much past the door opening.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XP0f00_JMak&feature=player_embedded
MTN Medic
05-28-2011, 07:27
It doesn't look like the SWAT team made it much past the door opening.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XP0f00_JMak&feature=player_embedded
That was so JV, it is unreal. This guy better have been a major drug pin or these guys are going to be looking for new jobs.
4 Guys shooting from the door frame. I have heard of strong walling, but never strong door framing. This reeks.
That was so JV, it is unreal. This guy better have been a major drug pin or these guys are going to be looking for new jobs.
4 Guys shooting from the door frame. I have heard of strong walling, but never strong door framing. This reeks.
It's actually taught now in cqb tactics. To fight your way into the room. Eliminate any immediate threats first. Then make full entry, points of domination...etc
It's actually taught now in cqb tactics. To fight your way into the room. Eliminate any immediate threats first. Then make full entry, points of domination...etc
Which is a technique that was ofttimes utilized before it became training doctrine. ;)
MTN Medic
05-28-2011, 10:23
It's actually taught now in cqb tactics. To fight your way into the room. Eliminate any immediate threats first. Then make full entry, points of domination...etc
Where? :confused:
Everywhere I been in the last 5 or so years.
Immediate threats are eliminated at the threshold before entering.
MTN Medic
05-28-2011, 18:17
Everywhere I been in the last 5 or so years.
Immediate threats are eliminated at the threshold before entering.
Yes, but four guys jammed in there shooting over each others shoulders without a sight picture of the target? That is something you would see from the Tangos.
Then, once you have fired 60+ rounds into the guy, one guy is laying in the fatal funnel while everyone else kinda backs off. No-one enters the room. I don't see where you can think this is anything but JV.
I just watched it again. I am surprised that there was no fratricide; especially after that last guy jumped in to throw a couple rounds into a guy with 65 rounds already in him.
Maybe he thought his buddies ran dry:D
Everywhere I been in the last 5 or so years.
Immediate threats are eliminated at the threshold before entering.
I had some major problems with their entry technique. Half the team was lollygagging back by the trucks!
1. The stack was sloppy and poorly positioned.
2. They took too long to get in the door, especially with no fire coming their way.
3. The shield man didn't push toward the threat.
4. This was a supposed search warrant. The primary objective is arrest. I could not make out commands to drop the weapon before any shots were fired.
5. As was stated earlier, too many people in the door shooting at once. It was obvious that at least two of them could not have had good target identification. The shield and teammates would have been blocking their view.
6. If the shield had chosen not to proceed inside, he should have fallen back and lipped the threshold, providing cover; visual idenitification and good position to give commands.
Team training seems an issue from the video.
The Reaper
05-28-2011, 19:32
Just because you CAN militarize your LEOs today does not mean that you SHOULD do so.
If you are not going to take the time, money, and effort to do it right, maybe Mayberry really doesn't need a SWAT team full of Barneys who get the gear and the patch, but not the specialized selection and training.
This county has maybe 60,000 residents, with 40,000 of them in three adjacent communities, and IIRC, there are several SWAT teams.
If your department has less than a minimum number of officers, you probably do not need to be fielding a specialized team. Especially when the SO has one which can respond to any part of the county in less than an hour.
TR
Just because you CAN militarize your LEOs today does not mean that you SHOULD do so.
If you are not going to take the time, money, and effort to do it right, maybe Mayberry really doesn't need a SWAT team full of Barneys who get the gear and the patch, but not the specialized selection and training.
This county has maybe 60,000 residents, with 40,000 of them in three adjacent communities, and IIRC, there are several SWAT teams.
If your department has less than a minimum number of officers, you probably do not need to be fielding a specialized team. Especially when the SO has one which can respond to any part of the county in less than an hour.
TR
This was the SO SWAT team. Pima County Regional.
The Reaper
05-28-2011, 20:23
This was the SO SWAT team. Pima County Regional.
Any idea if there is a certification requirement for teams, or can any department grab some of their bubbas and claim they have one?
The Pima County team was seriously hosed up on this entry. Rookie mistakes.
TR
Any idea if there is a certification requirement for teams, or can any department grab some of their bubbas and claim they have one?
The Pima County team was seriously hosed up on this entry. Rookie mistakes.
TR
"Seriously hosed up" is a kind an interpretation. I would say disaster, undisciplined, unprofessional and possibly liable etc.
http://ntoa.org/site/
The National Tactical Officers Association sets standards and guidelines that are vigorous and challenging to meet. These standards range from selection, training, TM leadership amongst other critical skill sets. Sadly (to my knowledge & someone please let me know if I am wrong) these standards are not enforceable. They are suggestions and IMHO any team that can not meet the standards (for any reason) should stand down until such time they can meet the standards. NTOA also is a training organization the offers liason to professional police and military trainers. Training opportunities range from the mundane to the cool guy stuff. Additionally most states have their own state tactical associations that should mirror the NTOA standards. HTH
Be nice if they had head cams; I'd like to No 1's video.
Any idea if there is a certification requirement for teams, or can any department grab some of their bubbas and claim they have one?
The Pima County team was seriously hosed up on this entry. Rookie mistakes.
TR
http://www.google.com/#hl=en&sugexp=ldymls&xhr=t&q=ntoa+minimun+swat+team+training&cp=28&pf=p&sclient=psy&source=hp&aq=0n&aqi=&aql=&oq=ntoa+minimun+swat+team+train&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=3630020dd2414e1d&biw=1440&bih=819
As Five-O posted, the NTOA developed what are considered the minimum standards for both full time and part time teams. Minimum training hours are established for entry, sniper and negotiator postions. Most departments that are serious about their teams at least try to meet the minimum standards established by NTOA. Departments which are nationally accredited through CALEA ( http://www.calea.org/ ) have to provide documentation that their teams do meet these requirements as well as AAR documentation of all team missions ( search warrants, felony fugitive apprehensions, drug interdictions, etc.).
They did make entry. Video doesn't show it. Don't know how fast it was thou.
MTN Medic
05-29-2011, 19:35
They did make entry. Video doesn't show it. Don't know how fast it was thou.
21 seconds from the time the breacher hit the door, to when the video stopped and no-one looked close to gaining entry.
Glad to see the cops were able to transition their eyes from the bright light of the outside to the darkened interior and have such a clear view as to what he was doing.
From a no experience, arm chairing perspective, Joe Average, I've seen other stuff on YouTube perspective...
The Team appeared to be a bit lackadaisical, taking their sweet ass time getting to the door. What I found of particular interest is at 00:17 someone say 'Bang, Bang, Bang' and at 00:43 the SWAT member on the back left who rushes up to get in on the action. Doesn't appear to be any use of incapacitating flash bangs or tear gas.
Again, I don't know jack but Bad Guy or not from my perspective it looks like a public relations nightmare.
Ya hadda be there.
Yeah I know, and 10 years ago no one would have released on YouTube.
It's a Mad Mad Mad Mad World ;)