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MoFo
05-27-2011, 10:51
Was told last night that some 20th Gp company down in MS, after returning from A-stan, was handing out orders for SF combat patches like they were party favors. The result is there are a bunch of leg support troops running around them parts sporting SF patches on their right shoulder.

Any of you know about this?

Snaquebite
05-27-2011, 11:11
If they were assigned or attached to a SF unit, that's the patch they wear.

BRAVO-SMASH
05-27-2011, 11:13
This happens a lot with anyone attached to ODAs as well as smaller "leg like" units attached to bigger airborne units or any other unit they think is cool. It gets as bad as Army units wearing Marine unit patches for a combat patch when Marines themselves do not wear them. Sometimes its a appreciative gesture that the conventional guys take some pride with serving alongside an ODA.

The Reaper
05-27-2011, 11:19
Yes, that happens with our attachments.

The Rangers don't do that, BTW. Their attachments and enablers get the SOCOM combat patch, IIRC. You don't get a combat scroll unless you are assigned to Regiment.

TR

VVVV
05-27-2011, 11:19
Was told last night that some 20th Gp company down in MS, after returning from A-stan, was handing out orders for SF combat patches like they were party favors. The result is there are a bunch of leg support troops running around them parts sporting SF patches on their right shoulder.

Any of you know about this?

It's nothing new.

1. What you arte calling combat patches are shoulder sleeve insignia-former wartime service (SSI–FWTS), not awards for combat.

2. Active Duty SFG's cut the very same orders, because that's what Army regs call for.

wet dog
05-27-2011, 11:23
Yes, that happens with our attachments.

The Rangers don't do that, BTW. Their attachments and enablers get the SOCOM combat patch, IIRC. You don't get a combat scroll unless you are assigned to Regiment.

TR

Gives a whole new meaning to "Scroll to the road".

Richard
05-27-2011, 12:20
The Rangers don't do that, BTW. Their attachments and enablers get the SOCOM combat patch, IIRC.

SOCOM or USASOC? I've only seen the latter.

Richard

MoFo
05-27-2011, 13:40
What I heard was that they were given to troops who were neither assigned nor attached, no opcon, and thus should not have had those orders.

BKKMAN
05-27-2011, 13:44
Unless there is an update that supersedes this, I refer to paragraph 9 in this ALARACT:

9. SOLDIERS WHO ARE CROSS-LEVELED, ASSIGNED, ATTACHED, OR AUGMENTING DEPLOYED UNITS, AND SOLDIERS WHO ARE TDY ON ORDERS THROUGH THE USE OF DD FORM 1610 (REQUEST AND AUTHORIZATION FOR TDY TRAVEL OF DOD PERSONNEL) WILL WEAR THE SAME SSI-FWTS WORN BY MEMBERS OF THEIR DEPLOYED UNIT (COMPANY OR HIGHER) TO WHICH ATTACHED OR OPCON. THIS DOES NOT APPLY TO MEMBERS OF TRIAL DEFENSE AND CIDC, WHO WILL WEAR THE SSI OF THEIR RESPECTIVE COMMANDS AS THEIR SSI-FWTS.

Obviously, from reading other portions of this ALARACT, one must pay close heed to the nature of the relationship between the SOF unit and the supporting unit.

MtnGoat
05-27-2011, 17:03
Anyone assigned to a SFG during a combat rotation can get a UNIT PATCH. They must be in the unit for I think Three months in a Combat Zone.

Yes it is or the get orders for combat patches are shoulder sleeve insignia-former wartime service (SSIFWTS)... NOT THE SPECIAL FORCES TAB just the Special Forces Unit patch which comes with ONLY the AIRBONE TAB.

I'm 18 Series not a PAC clerk so I don't know the Regs.

lindy
05-27-2011, 17:08
MoFo,

PM me particulars and I'll look into it. I personally can attest that the 2/20th SOT-As are in compliance with 670-1 and the ALARACT. Our MI Det SGT would not tolerate anything less.

Lindy

PRB
05-27-2011, 21:01
from my experience in Astan it's pretty much put on whatever patch you want.
We had imbedded NG's with the 205th Afghan Corps that had their own HQ's and complete Bn State unit deployed.....when SF took opcon of the Afghans for an individual op and the imbedded NG's went with they would all put on SF combat patches the next day.(those that rode along)
If they went with a US unit (173rd) then they'd wear that patch to (velcro is a great thing).
Mother Army doesn't care as long as they deploy. Sad really as tradition and unit integrity is not what it once was.

BKKMAN
05-27-2011, 23:46
Anyone assigned to a SFG during a combat rotation can get a UNIT PATCH. They must be in the unit for I think Three months in a Combat Zone.


There is no time in theater requirement for the SSI-FWTS and by extrapolation, no time requirement with the unit you are assigned/attached/OPCON to in theater in order to wear their patch.

From the ALARACT that I posted above:

5. THERE IS NO TIME-IN-THEATER REQUIREMENT TO BE AUTHORIZED TO WEAR THE SSI-FWTS.

MtnGoat
05-28-2011, 07:57
There is no time in theater requirement for the SSI-FWTS and by extrapolation, no time requirement with the unit you are assigned/attached/OPCON to in theater in order to wear their patch.

I was hoping a S1 NCO would log on this weekend.. But with it being the weekend it is. I'll stop in Monday and ask PAC about this.

greenberetTFS
05-28-2011, 08:41
There is no time in theater requirement for the SSI-FWTS and by extrapolation, no time requirement with the unit you are assigned/attached/OPCON to in theater in order to wear their patch.

From the ALARACT that I posted above:

5. THERE IS NO TIME-IN-THEATER REQUIREMENT TO BE AUTHORIZED TO WEAR THE SSI-FWTS.

That is shameful that they are allowed to wear it,they are no better than any other POSER we've address so far........ It's just BS pure and simple.........:mad::mad::mad:

Big Teddy :munchin

jbour13
05-28-2011, 12:00
If I'm not mistaken, a memorandum for record must be provided to HRC that authorizes the wear of the unit SSI.

I have 3 from my time from 1st Bn, 3rd Group. Also have a few others. I also have each in my OMPF to cover my wear of it with my DA Photo.

We have had individual augmented personnel that are authorized the wear of the unit patch. Additionally, the reg states somewhere (from what I remember) that if a company or above is attached to (TACON, OPCON) another unit, they will wear their unit patch as the SSI.

I don't agree with it just being handed out. But if you supported the CJSOTF, SOTF on down to ODA, then you deserve to wear it. SSI is a unit level appointed uniform item the same as those worn on the wearer's right. But each Soldier is responsible for their own ERB, OMPF and Photo. Wear what you want, you never know who is reviewing your file.

I've seen more people this last trip wearing the Regiment's patch and that damn Commando patch. Our Commando ODA didn't wear them because they couldn't get them.......because everyone else was apparently a commando. I'm not sure if it was the same for you VG, but everyone wanted to be part of the commando brigade. :D

I'll look through the regs again, but what I have up top was a board question for one of my Soldiers, and we both spent time researching it to make sure since we didn't know. I know, bad SFC, bad!

stickey
05-28-2011, 13:17
3/20th personnel returning received them but after having correctly read and executed the proper regs.

I know leadership from 3/20th wouldn't "hand" them out. Most within the BN/SOTF understand the reg and wouldn't falsify anything...especially after such incident (a combat patch among other stuff) was dealt with very strongly ( and appropriately) with an attached Soldier during the rotation.

BKKMAN
05-28-2011, 16:35
This happens a lot with anyone attached to ODAs as well as smaller "leg like" units attached to bigger airborne units or any other unit they think is cool. It gets as bad as Army units wearing Marine unit patches for a combat patch when Marines themselves do not wear them. Sometimes it’s a appreciative gesture that the conventional guys take some pride with serving alongside an ODA.

ALARACT 178/2010 took care of people trying to wear USMC patches, although it would seem that those that have already served with a Marine unit and have been granted approval by DCS, Army G-1 would still be allowed to wear the patch:

1. SOLDIERS WHO SERVED WITH UNITED STATES MARINE CORPS (USMC) UNITS DURING OPERATIONS THAT MEET THE CRITERIA OUTLINED IN AR 670‐1, PARAGRAPH 28‐17 WHO HAVE BEEN GRANTED WRITTEN APPROVAL BY THE DCS, ARMY G‐1 OR A DELEGATED REPRESENTATIVE ARE AUTHORIZED TO CONTINUE WEARING THAT USMC LOGO PATCH AS THEIR SSI‐FWTS.

2. IN ORDER TO PRESERVE THE UNIT HERITAGE, UNITS COMPANY LEVEL OR HIGHER THAT ARE ATTACHED OR UNDER THE OPERATIONAL CONTROL OF USMC DEPLOYED UNITS WILL NO LONGER BE GRANTED AN EXCEPTION TO POLICY TO WEAR USMC LOGO PATCHES AS THEIR SSI‐FWTS. THIS POLICY IS EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY.

3. INDIVIDUALS WHO SERVE WITH USMC HEADQUARTERS AS INDIVIDUAL AUGMENTEES ON STAFF WILL STILL BE AUTHORIZED TO WEAR USMC LOGO PATCHES.

FYI, para 28-17. Shoulder sleeve insignia-former wartime service (SSI–FWTS) is on page 239 of AR 670-1

Radar Rider
05-28-2011, 17:53
I'm not seeing what the real beef is here. I was an MI leader in the MI Detachment of 3rd Group, with two separate trips to Afghanistan and CJSOTF-A. I am NOT SF and did nothing spectacular in Afghanistan, except for doing my job. I wore the SF patch on my right shoulder (I'm retired now) for the rest of my career.

The right shoulder patch doesn't allow the Special Forces Tab, just so as to define the service.

greenberetTFS
05-29-2011, 07:35
For those who wear the patch,ask yourself,do you really believe it's right?..........If you do than you will have to live with yourself and that decision.........:(

Big Teddy :munchin

Surgicalcric
05-29-2011, 14:38
For those who wear the patch,ask yourself,do you really believe it's right?..........If you do than you will have to live with yourself and that decision.........:(

Big Teddy :munchin

There is nothing to wrong to live with Teddy...

The Electric Butterknife patch is a unit patch; it is worn on the left shoulder by everyone assigned/attached/TDY to one of the 7 SF Groups. The FWS-SSI (worn on the right shoulder) is given for service in a combat zone, not for the individuals in/actions during combat. However if that were the case there would still be some support personnel who deserve to wear it more than some team guys I know.

Crip

MtnGoat
05-29-2011, 17:09
For those who wear the patch,ask yourself,do you really believe it's right?..........If you do than you will have to live with yourself and that decision.........:(

Big Teddy :munchin

There are a lot of Support Soldiers and NCOs out on Fire Bases and riding in the same GMVs, RG33, MATVs and even Strykers. Getting into the same fire fights with us, eating the S%!T as any SF guy. So for me I don't have an issues with them being issued a FWS-SSI Combat Patch. They don't get wear the SF Tab. Like jbour13, ever Support or attched person MUST have that Memo to be able to wear a FWS-SSI Combat Patch. If they don't have it, not to be worn. DA photos is wear they are typically found wear a SF Group Unit patch illegally.

Don
06-08-2011, 11:55
There are a lot of Support Soldiers and NCOs out on Fire Bases and riding in the same GMVs, RG33, MATVs and even Strykers. Getting into the same fire fights with us, eating the S%!T as any SF guy. So for me I don't have an issues with them being issued a FWS-SSI Combat Patch. They don't get wear the SF Tab. Like jbour13, ever Support or attched person MUST have that Memo to be able to wear a FWS-SSI Combat Patch. If they don't have it, not to be worn. DA photos is wear they are typically found wear a SF Group Unit patch illegally.

Serious question...any award of the Combat Patch for operations in the Phillipines 2008-2009? (Not necessarily for 20th Group...but in general). Have a guy I work with wearing the SF combat patch for a trip to PI in 2008.

mcmac61
06-08-2011, 12:32
Anyone assigned to a SFG during a combat rotation can get a UNIT PATCH. They must be in the unit for I think Three months in a Combat Zone.

Yes it is or the get orders for combat patches are shoulder sleeve insignia-former wartime service (SSIFWTS)... NOT THE SPECIAL FORCES TAB just the Special Forces Unit patch which comes with ONLY the AIRBONE TAB.

I'm 18 Series not a PAC clerk so I don't know the Regs.

As a retired support troop for SF we get the patch and not the TAB that would be wrong as 2 boys f--k--g.

PedOncoDoc
06-08-2011, 13:16
As a retired support troop for SF we get the patch and not the TAB that would be wrong as 2 boys f--k--g.

You clearly haven't attended sensitivity training yet - the latter is no longer considered wrong.

BKKMAN
06-08-2011, 13:42
Serious question...any award of the Combat Patch for operations in the Phillipines 2008-2009? (Not necessarily for 20th Group...but in general). Have a guy I work with wearing the SF combat patch for a trip to PI in 2008.

There was an update that came out from the Army G-1 IRT this. As long as his TDY orders had him in support of OEF-P, he is entitled to wear the SSI-FWTS. G-1 link is at:

http://www.armyg1.army.mil/hr/uniform/docs/Shoulder%20Sleeve%20Insignia.pdf

I have also attached the document.

Pete
06-08-2011, 13:59
There was an update that came out from the Army G-1 IRT this. As long as his TDY orders had him in support of OEF-P, he is entitled to wear the SSI-FWTS. G-1 link is at:

http://www.armyg1.army.mil/hr/uniform/docs/Shoulder%20Sleeve%20Insignia.pdf

I have also attached the document.

As long as he was getting CZTE status and drawing IDP - which should be covered under the TDY orders - correct?

Eagle5US
06-08-2011, 14:06
As long as he was getting CZTE status and drawing IDP - which should be covered under the TDY orders - correct?
Negative....
Just after Sep 11 (Sep 14) we deployed to Bosnia and took out multiple AQ targets North of Sarajevo for two weeks.

Had status, drew IDP, OERs / NCOER's state Combat, no SSI-FWTS.

BKKMAN
06-08-2011, 15:09
As long as he was getting CZTE status and drawing IDP - which should be covered under the TDY orders - correct?


As the document I provided says, he needed to be in the PI and drawing CZTE and IDP. I was on a JCET to Mindanao in the summer of 2009 which was in support of OEF-P and said so on my 1610. We checked in with and reported to the JSOTF in Zamboanga. So the person in question could have been there either directly working for the JSOTF and its subordinate elements or he could have been there on a JCET which supported OEF-P. His orders, TDY settlement, ERB, W-2, etc. should show some evidence of combat zone time or CZTE/IDP.

Negative....
Just after Sep 11 (Sep 14) we deployed to Bosnia and took out multiple AQ targets North of Sarajevo for two weeks.

Had status, drew IDP, OERs / NCOER's state Combat, no SSI-FWTS.

Apples and oranges. The OEF-P memorandum is a specific revision to AR 670-1 for the Philippines. I am not discounting the nature of your service in Bosnia, but the powers that be never decided to make it an SSI-FWTS eligible area.

Eagle5US
06-08-2011, 15:18
Apples and oranges. The OEF-P memorandum is a specific revision to AR 670-1 for the Philippines. I am not discounting the nature of your service in Bosnia, but the powers that be never decided to make it an SSI-FWTS eligible area.

Not so...

My response had nothing to do with your OEF-P document...

It was posted in response to:

As long as he was getting CZTE status and drawing IDP - which should be covered under the TDY orders - correct?

BKKMAN
06-08-2011, 15:24
Not so...

My response had nothing to do with your OEF-P document...

It was posted in response to:


I stand corrected...:D

Ironmike
06-09-2011, 11:28
I was in the 2-20 Hq. and Co. B a long time ago when both were in Jackson Ms.
At that time everyone in the Unit wore the S.F. patch, and if ABN qualified the Abn. tab. We all wore Green Bretes, S.F. Qualified wore a full flash, unqualified wore a half flash. Combat patches were wore on the right, what ever patch that might be Marine or what ever. There was no S.F. tab at that time. The Beret was the identifier. The Rangers wanted black ones but they had the Ranger tab as an idenifier. Then the Air Borne wanted a red beret.
Now everyone in the Army has a beret and a tab. And so it goes it kind of like jump boots everyone just about wanted a pair.

VVVV
06-09-2011, 12:13
I was in the 2-20 Hq. and Co. B a long time ago when both were in Jackson Ms.
At that time everyone in the Unit wore the S.F. patch, and if ABN qualified the Abn. tab. We all wore Green Bretes, S.F. Qualified wore a full flash, unqualified wore a half flash. Combat patches were wore on the right, what ever patch that might be Marine or what ever. There was no S.F. tab at that time. The Beret was the identifier. The Rangers wanted black ones but they had the Ranger tab as an idenifier. Then the Air Borne wanted a red beret.
Now everyone in the Army has a beret and a tab. And so it goes it kind of like jump boots everyone just about wanted a pair.

No one should have been wearing the SF patch without the Airborne tab. one. The tab is an integral part of the SF SSI.

The Green Beret was unit head gear until it became an individual award sometime in the '90s (?)

What tab does everyone in the US Army have now?

Don
06-09-2011, 13:23
There was an update that came out from the Army G-1 IRT this. As long as his TDY orders had him in support of OEF-P, he is entitled to wear the SSI-FWTS.

Thanks, Brother. There has been a couple of times I have caught him misspeaking about his time with Group. I have his ERB...but no mention of deployment time in the PI in the OS Depolyment/Combat Zone section. It does reference IZ for a combat tour...but not PI.

18C4V
06-09-2011, 13:39
I've seen more people this last trip wearing the Regiment's patch and that damn Commando patch. Our Commando ODA didn't wear them because they couldn't get them.......because everyone else was apparently a commando. I'm not sure if it was the same for you VG, but everyone wanted to be part of the commando brigade. :D



Lol,
What we did was go to the Commando sew shop and buy the individual company patches. So one side was the Commando patch and the other was the company patch the the guys were assigned to.

Our snipers who were assigned to the ICTF wore the ICTF patch and whatever troop patch that they belonged to.

stfesta
06-09-2011, 16:09
It has been that way for years. Not a big deal. They are not given SF Tabs.

As far as bragging goes, the second that Special Forces became Spec Ops, everyone became a hero.

"I'm in Spec Ops"

"What do you do in Spec Ops?"

"I am a Spec Ops Cook."

"Well I guess you need to sneak up on those eggs to scramble them"


And so on. I have always said, you either have a tab or a story.

sf

Pete
06-09-2011, 16:26
Not so...

My response had nothing to do with your OEF-P document...

It was posted in response to:

My response was about "He" as in "He" in the Phillipines. To be eligible he had to have all three.

Roguish Lawyer
06-09-2011, 17:21
"I am a Spec Ops Cook."


A lowly, lowly cook? ;)

alright4u
06-09-2011, 19:00
It has been that way for years. Not a big deal. They are not given SF Tabs.

As far as bragging goes, the second that Special Forces became Spec Ops, everyone became a hero.

"I'm in Spec Ops"

"What do you do in Spec Ops?"

"I am a Spec Ops Cook."

"Well I guess you need to sneak up on those eggs to scramble them"


And so on. I have always said, you either have a tab or a story.

sf


I have a lot of respect for those cooks, clerks, and especially the chief scrounger. I'd be dead without the SF medic.

stfesta
06-09-2011, 22:02
I have a lot of respect for those cooks, clerks, and especially the chief scrounger. I'd be dead without the SF medic.

I never said I don't respect what support does. I do. What I am saying is you should be proud of the job you do, not the one I do.

sf

Ironmike
06-15-2011, 19:48
19392Lets see. Ranger , S.F., Sapper, Sniper recon do, commando, tater fryer. If you drop back to the 1960s there just were not that many who wanted the patch. Being less than 10 years since John F. Kennedy gave the Special Forces the Beret. S.F was very unconventional. Spooks training training was a big part of training. The Army did not care much about the S.F. there was a lot of professional jealously about the S.F. S.F. did not have a quartermaster to draw equipment from. Where did we get log. support. We saw three colors, white, gray, and black. My team had an Nuro Surgeon , a Highway Patrolman, we all civilian careers in addition to military. Where our money came from I don't know. But when we lost that source everyone in S.F. knew it. I waited for money to go to the Q. course, Path Finders school, HALO we didn't have the money. People that went to the schools came back and trained the ones that had not been to the schools. I never got S.F. qualified or a full Flash as we called S.F. qualifications. That did not keep me off of a TEAM, when I got busted up on a night jump MC1-1 into the middle of some mountains I was with my team and they roped me off of the mountain. I made a few jumps after that but just not toe the line in a high speed unit. That patch was on my shoulder when I crashed and burned. I have not had it on my shoulder since that time. We had one of our guys killed in training. Would you have ripped the patch off his arm? No I am not S.F qualified. I just got to hang around a bunch of guys that were, and I would not take anything in the world for that privilege. Enough said