View Full Version : U.S. to propose mandatory vehicle ‘black boxes’
We're 14 trillion dollars in hock, 9% unemployment and another regulatory agency believes we must have the additional expense of 'Black Boxes' in all vehicles by 2011.....AND they also propose "for future enhancements to (EDRs) capabilities and applicability (Can you say Mileage Tax, Automatic Kill Switch, tracking of evil civilians and 1984.)
They are just looking out for your best interest......
Detriot News
May 26, 2011 http://detnews.com/article/20110526/AUTO01/105260436
U.S. to propose mandatory vehicle ‘black boxes’
DAVID SHEPARDSON/ Detroit News Washington Bureau
The U.S. Transportation Department said today it will propose making vehicle "black boxes" mandatory in all vehicles by the end of the year.
The department's National Highway Traffic Safety Administration has long considered whether to make black boxes, officially called event data recorders, or EDRs, mandatory. They collect data about the seconds leading up to a crash and can help investigators determine the cause.
Last year, Congress considered requiring EDRs in all vehicles. NHTSA Administrator David Strickland told Congress the agency was studying the issue.
The plan was included in a 197-page Transportation Department regulatory reform proposal released by the White House this morning.
"NHTSA plans to propose mandatory EDRs in all passenger vehicles in 2011," the Transportation Department said in the report.
In a separate agency document posted on its website, NHTSA said it is also working on a proposal "for future enhancements to (EDRs) capabilities and applicability."
But the agency said it hasn't decided whether to require EDRs in heavy-duty vehicles.
Most automobiles already have the devices. NHTSA estimated that about 64 percent of 2005 model passenger vehicles had the devices. Many major automakers already include them all vehicles, including General Motors Co., Ford Motor Co., Toyota Motor Corp. and Mazda Motor Co.
In August 2006, NHTSA issued a rule setting standards for EDR data collection.
The rule, which takes effect in the 2013 model year, standardizes the information EDRs collect and makes retrieving the data easier. Devices must record 15 data elements, including vehicle deceleration, in specific formats.
Different automakers collect different data. In 2009, not all Toyota EDRs recorded both pre- and post-crash data. By the end of last year, all Toyota and Lexus vehicles included EDRs that can record both.
In May 2010, the Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers, the trade association GM, Ford, Chrysler Group LLC, Toyota and eight other automakers, endorsed making EDRs mandatory in all vehicles, but expressed concerns that some in Congress wanted more elaborate and expensive ones than are available.
The devices have been in use for about 20 years.
GM began widely installing the predecessor version of today's event data recorders in vehicles in the 1990 model year, and they became standard equipment in light duty vehicles in the 1995 model year.
dshepardson@detnews.com
(202) 662-8735
© Copyright 2011 The Detroit News. All rights reserved.
http://detnews.com/article/20110526/AUTO01/105260436/1148/U.S.-to-propose-mandatory-vehicle-%C3%82%E2%80%98black-boxes%C3%82%E2%80%99
If these EDRs have been on vehicles since '05, who is collecting the crash data? I know it isn't NC LEOs or HP. The boxes may get sent to the SBI for felony death by motor vehicle cases but I don't recall any instances where they have been a factor in a conviction. That is what we have traffic reconstructionists for.
If anyone knows any different, chime in.
Meh...
The rule, which takes effect in the 2013 model year, standardizes the information EDRs collect and makes retrieving the data easier. Devices must record 15 data elements, including vehicle deceleration, in specific formats.
Different automakers collect different data. In 2009, not all Toyota EDRs recorded both pre- and post-crash data. By the end of last year, all Toyota and Lexus vehicles included EDRs that can record both.
In May 2010, the Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers, the trade association GM, Ford, Chrysler Group LLC, Toyota and eight other automakers, endorsed making EDRs mandatory in all vehicles, but expressed concerns that some in Congress wanted more elaborate and expensive ones than are available.
The devices have been in use for about 20 years.
Makes sense as it would let acident investigators know whether it was a manufacturing or driver error and the cost has nothing to do with the govt - IMO the "On-Star" system and "Blue Toothing" your i-Phones to your car's systems is far more Big Brotheresque than the EDR.
Richard :munchin
SpikedBuck
05-27-2011, 07:31
Patriot Act?!
Team Sergeant
05-27-2011, 07:34
Meh...
Makes sense as it would let acident investigators know whether it was a manufacturing or driver error and the cost has nothing to do with the govt - IMO the "On-Star" system and "Blue Toothing" your i-Phones to your car's systems is far more Big Brotheresque than the EDR.
Richard :munchin
I disagree, Blue tooth and I-phones are a "freeman's" choice. This EDR is not a choice.
Five bucks says in the first six months after they are mandatory it will be a felony to disengage them.
Doesn't bother me - it's not a 'tracking' device and is activated upon a command for air-bag deployment.
Originally designed to improve air bag performance based on the severity of the collision, the event data recorder can tell traffic accident investigators about the car's speed, engine RPMs, how far the accelerator pedal was pressed, if the brakes were applied, whether the driver’s seatbelt was buckled and what warning lights were on
http://www.harristechnical.com/cdr.htm
Richard :munchin
Patriot Act?!
Patriot Act will have nothing to do with it. The vote was extended over two hours after it was said to be resigned only to keep certain amendments still in tact. I.E. Police able to obtain warrants via the court for terrorist suspects, warrant-less searches of gun laws, and others unmentioned. Charlie mic.
WRMETTLER
05-27-2011, 10:24
Just like our mobile phones and computers, I bet there is more to the device than stated.
Isn’t anyone surprised that this device is being pushed at the same time the Vehicle Mile Tax (VMT) is being raised. It is quite a coincidence.
Is this device designed, in addition to providing information about the specifics of a vehicle immediately before and during a collision, to transmit tracking information for tax purposes or other government purposes?
Doesn't bother me - it's not a 'tracking' device and is activated upon a command for air-bag deployment.
Originally designed to improve air bag performance based on the severity of the collision, the event data recorder can tell traffic accident investigators about the car's speed, engine RPMs, how far the accelerator pedal was pressed, if the brakes were applied, whether the driver’s seatbelt was buckled and what warning lights were on
http://www.harristechnical.com/cdr.htm
Richard :munchin
Sir,
I would bet that in time this device will produce live feed data of present location, miles driven, point to point, frequently visited places of interest, fuel usage, speed, braking, seat belt usage, bag deployment and traffic violations. All of which be used by our Government and Insurance Companies to drain as many dollars out of your pocket into theirs....all under the guise of 'Public Safety'.
And that doesn't even cover the sales of data to marketing companies and other more nefarious uses.
Imagine driving with HAL 9000....I don't want or need BiG Bro as my Co-Pilot.
Sir,
I would bet that in time this device will produce live feed data of present location, miles driven, point to point, frequently visited places of interest, fuel usage, speed, braking, seat belt usage, bag deployment and traffic violations. All of which be used by our Government and Insurance Companies to drain as many dollars out of your pocket into theirs....all under the guise of 'Public Safety'.
And that doesn't even cover the sales of data to marketing companies and other more nefarious uses.
Imagine driving with HAL 9000....I don't want or need BiG Bro as my Co-Pilot.
Right on. It's a slippery slope that many feel betters society, but in the end, only enslaves us.
Working in auto and commercial claims I can actually speak on this subject. There are actually a substantial percentage (my guess is about 15-20 of new cars) of vehicles that have EDRs today, but most only record on a continuous loop for about 2 minutes at a time until the computer detects a major event (airbag deployment, engine failure, electronic failure). At that point the EDR saves the previous “loop” of data. We currently only hire experts to download and assess this data on major claims as the cost runs anywhere from $4000 to $8000 to analyze this data.
I have literally handled 10,000+ claims and I can remember LE getting the data in less than 5 cases (all involved a death) and I have hired an expert maybe 20 times and in all of those cases it either involved death or serious injury.
If you would like to know if your car has an EDR, PM me your VIN and I'll tell you.
Davin
Right on. It's a slippery slope that many feel betters society, but in the end, only enslaves us.
10 planks of the Marx Implementation? Socialism? :eek:
If you would like to know if your car has an EDR, PM me your VIN and I'll tell you.
Davin
That alone scares me.
But given manufacturers history I understand. What make, model, year can we expect EDRs to have become standard in most vehicles?
These comments/questions lead me to believe nobody read the link in post #6 or went on to check out any of the informational links that page provides.
For example - those links offer current info as of 4 May 2011 for:
Vehicles with an EDR on board.
Toyota Vehicles with an EDR on board.
Electronic Control Module Field Guide (Trucks)
EDR Case Law
State Statutes on Motor Vehicle Event Data Recorders
List of Event Data Recorder Service Providers
And so on...
Just sayin'...
Richard :munchin
These comments/questions lead me to believe nobody read the link in post #6 or went on to check out any of the informational links that page provides.[COLOR="Lime"]Just sayin'...
Richard :munchin
On the surface it looks like a well meaning project, but the implications of the Black Project side of is scary.....at present you can 'opt-in' for additional discounts from insurers by installing a device that tracks mileage, speed and who knows what else.
The insurance industry offers discounts to entice people to become test subjects, testing is done, infrastructure is built and all it takes is someone like Senate Budget Committee Chairman Kent Conrad, D-N.D. shepherd such a Black Project, and before long it isn't an option, it is a mandate and another noose around the neck of your freedom to choose.
The Obama administration has floated a transportation authorization bill that would require the study and implementation of a plan to tax automobile drivers based on how many miles they drive.
This innocent Black Box will in turn into a project on the scale of those innocent cameras we now have all around the city streets and highways that keep an eye on traffic.........and some now have infared, NV and long distance capabilities.
That alone scares me.
But given manufacturers history I understand. What make, model, year can we expect EDRs to have become standard in most vehicles?
Since there are not any current standards its hard to say. Different manufactures record different things and also make that data available at different levels. As Richard noted, the link in the article references Bosch's EDRs and what platforms they are used on. From my understanding Bosch's EDRs work much the same as a black box in a plane and record almost all pertinent data. However, there are other manufactures that don't use Bosch and only record certain data. BMW for example only makes speed, traction control, impact location, and ABS info available without a subpoena. If you want to get all the data you have to get it from BMW Germany after jumping through many hoops. Point is until there is regulation put into place different manufactures will record different data and make that data available to different people.
Or you could get insurance through Progressive and they will offer you peanuts to put one of their data recorders in your vehicle. While they don't advertise that this data could be used against you in a claim, that doesn't mean it won't be. I can tell you the last thing you want is a P.I. attorney getting their hands on it and showing a jury you were traveling over the speed limit when the accident happened.
WRMETTLER
05-28-2011, 10:34
. BMW for example only makes speed, traction control, impact location, and ABS info available without a subpoena. If you want to get all the data you have to get it from BMW Germany after jumping through many hoops. Point is until there is regulation put into place different manufactures will record different data and make that data available to different people.
DJM: So, what you're saying is that if you want all the information on a black box you have to deal with BMW in Germany?
Do you know what all is recorded on the BMW black box?
It appears that BMW is going to give you what it wants to give you and you'll never know what all is on the black box or what it is capable of unless BMW volunteers to disclose all the information and what the box is capable of.
Another question: if the black box is in an accident in Gilbert Arizona, how can the information from it be in Germany?
AngelsSix
05-28-2011, 14:25
If these EDRs have been on vehicles since '05, who is collecting the crash data? I know it isn't NC LEOs or HP. The boxes may get sent to the SBI for felony death by motor vehicle cases but I don't recall any instances where they have been a factor in a conviction. That is what we have traffic reconstructionists for.
If anyone knows any different, chime in.
They are using them in Winston Salem. One of the motor officers I know has explained that they have the device to download the data from the recorder. He says that they have been using it for more than two years at crashes. He stated that it is a good way to determine fault and is a good tool to take to court when someone sues. The data recorders in vehicles are recording anywhere from 30 seconds on up of the actions of the driver inputs, i.e. - brakes, signals, acceleration, steering inputs, as well as the movement of the car and several axis. It records airbag deployments and whether or not all passengers as well as the driver was wearing a seatbelt.
I know for a fact that someone was denied a claim on their auto warranty due to the black box in the vehicle recording excess speeds (Corvette).
Here: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4180/is_20040916/ai_n10070240/ is a case where the module recorded an excess speed prior to an accident that caused a death....the motion to dismiss the murder charge was denied. I didn't look up the actual case, but I would be curious to know if there was a conviction.
Off to do some research...
I'd like to see a solution that allows consumers to opt in or out of using EDRs and for there to be some sort of compensation. I would also like EDRs that could collect a wider range of data over a longer interval of time. The data could then be used by traffic engineers, urban planners, and municipalities to get people where they need to go just a tad faster and more economically.
Whether or not the DOT wants them, after what Toyota went through over the last couple of years regarding their Camry's and some Lexus models, I doubt any auto manufacturers and their insurers want their products to not have them.
Richard :munchin
I'd like to see a solution that allows consumers to opt in or out of using EDRs and for there to be some sort of compensation. I would also like EDRs that could collect a wider range of data over a longer interval of time. The data could then be used by traffic engineers, urban planners, and municipalities to get people where they need to go just a tad faster and more economically.
Thank You. There is a lot of good from doing this. It's not like they will ever make us take clothing off to board a plane.
GratefulCitizen
05-28-2011, 18:38
Needs to be a state issue, not a federal one.
Let people buy what they want and equip it as they wish; don't like the laws -- move.
Here in northern Ariz. you can build your own car and license it.
Needs turn signals, brake lights, rearview mirror, redundant braking system, and headlights (if you use it at night).
Poof...here's your license plate.
Run it on anything you want -- propane, cng, gasoline, ethanol, methanol, vegetable oil, diesel, transmission fluid...(just not farm diesel.)
Some of us still live in Free America.
It's a shame there are so many who live their lives in those urban dystopias -- soon to be small police states.
AngelsSix
05-28-2011, 22:09
I'd like to see a solution that allows consumers to opt in or out of using EDRs and for there to be some sort of compensation. I would also like EDRs that could collect a wider range of data over a longer interval of time. The data could then be used by traffic engineers, urban planners, and municipalities to get people where they need to go just a tad faster and more economically.
I agree that we should be using these parameters to help traffic engineers..but then it isn't just about the cars,....it's about the drivers and the road designs...don't get me started on the road designs....
don't like the laws -- move.Why not just build a majority and change the laws?:confused:
GratefulCitizen
05-30-2011, 13:03
Why not just build a majority and change the laws?:confused:
Wholeheartedly agree...
provided it's a local majority.
Building a national majority and changing the laws is tyranny of the majority with nowhere to flee.
Let the states solve their own problems and don't meddle with their neighbors.
mark46th
05-30-2011, 15:13
As long as my wife doesn't have access, I'm OK...
BigJimCalhoun
05-31-2011, 20:26
So if I get hit by a police officer, will I or my insurance company be able to access the data from the police car black box?
Will I be able to submit a freedom of information request for black box data from my local government?
So if I get hit by a police officer, will I or my insurance company be able to access the data from the police car black box?
Will I be able to submit a freedom of information request for black box data from my local government?
Probably not, I'm sure you'll get the standard BS answer. The government's black box just happened to be no functional at the time, or they can't find it.