View Full Version : Philly Fuzz Threatens to Make Life Uncomfortable for Legal Open Carriers
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/05/21/altercation-philadelphia-police-say-wont-look-way-open-carry-gun-owners/?test=latestnews
With a shocking altercation between Philadelphia police and a 25-year-old IT worker putting the spotlight back on open-carry gun laws, local authorities are warning gun owners that they will be "inconvenienced" if they carry unconcealed handguns in the city.
Lt. Raymond Evers, a spokesman for the city police, told FoxNews.com that gun owners who open carry, which is legal in the city, may be asked to lay on the ground until officers feel safe while they check permits.
"Philadelphia, in certain areas, is very dangerous," he said. "There's a lot of gun violence." Several officers have been killed in the line of duty in the past three years, local authorities say.
The warning comes after Mark Fiorino, a suburban Philadelphia IT worker, posted an audiotape to YouTube of his tense, 45-minute encounter with police in February over his exposed handgun. The video went viral and captured national attention.
After Fiorino released the audiotape, he was charged with disorderly conduct and reckless endangerment. He now faces up to two years in prison.
"The police department and assistant district attorney are coming after me, in my opinion, to make an example of me because I stood up to them and exposed them for their lack of knowledge," Fiorino said, who called the trial "absolutely inappropriate and a waste of taxpayer money."
Fiorino said he did nothing reckless, nor did he endanger anyone's life.
"I had a gun pointed at my chest," he said.
Only seven states ban the practice of openly carrying guns, and Pennsylvania isn't one of them, according to OpenCarry.org, which advocates gun rights. In Philadelphia, a permit is required to carry handguns openly. But on Feb. 13 a police sergeant who was unaware of the law -- which dates back to at least 1996 when the state Supreme Court referenced it in an unrelated ruling -- stopped Fiorino, who was walking to an auto parts shop in Northeast Philadelphia with a gun on his hip.
Sgt. Michael Dougherty can be heard yelling out to Fiorino as "Junior," and asking him to show his hands as Fiorino protests having a gun pointed at his chest, prompting Dougherty to call for backup.
Dougherty grows increasingly agitated as Fiorino offers to show his permit when he is ordered to get on his knees, causing Dougherty to threaten to shoot if he makes a move. Dougherty then unleashed a string of profanities as the two argued over the legality of open carry.
"Do you know you can't openly carry here in Philadelphia?" Dougherty yells.
"Yes, you can, if you have a license to carry firearms," Fiorino responds."It's Directive 137. It's your own internal directive."
When several other officers arrive, Fiorino is forced to the ground as he tries to explain that he's not breaking the law.
"Shut the f---- up!" Dougherty yells.
Police found the recorder while searching Fiorino's pockets. Officers eventually released him after speaking to the department's lawyer and being told that he was within his legal rights.
Police Commissioner Charles Ramsey took issue with Dougherty's language and his lack of knowledge about the law during the altercation, Evers said, but not with the stop itself.
Evers, who has been an officer for nearly 20 years, said "very rarely do people open carry in Philadelphia." But he added he wasn't make excuses.
"We weren't as up on that crime code as we should have been," he said, adding that officers are being re-educated on open carry in response to the incident.
Dougherty is facing disciplinary action pending the outcome of an internal affairs investigation, Evers said.
Fiorino's trial is scheduled to begin in July and the district attorney's office emphasizes that Fiorino's response to the police, not his gun rights, are at issue.
"This office respects and upholds the rights of a citizen to lawfully carry a firearm," Tasha Jamerson, a spokeswoman for the district attorney's office, said in a statement emailed to FoxNews.com. "The permit to carry a concealed weapon, however, does not mean that a permitholder can abuse that right by refusing to cooperate with police."
Jamerson said Fiorino "allegedly became belligerent and hostile" when police officers "were legally attempting to investigate a potential crime."
But Fiorino's attorney, Joseph Valvo, said the case is larger than Fiorino.
"It's my position that this entire prosecution is an effort by Philadelphia authorities to send a message to legitimate gun owners that open carry as a practice is not welcome in Philadelphia despite the fact that it's constitutionally protected behavior and that's offensive to me as a citizen and as a lawyer," Valvo said.
Gun rights advocates say they're are also offended.
John Pierce, a co-founder of OpenCarry.org said, Philadelphia police have sent a clear message to gun owners that will chill their rights to openly carry.
"Even if it's legal, we can punish you financially and by disruptions in your life," he said.
But the district attorney's office dismissed as "ludicrous" claims it is seeking retaliation or trying to send a message.
"This office only charges people with offenses that we think we can prosecute," Jamerson said in an interview with FoxNews.com. "We just don't willy-nilly charge a person with a crime as retaliation for an incident."
The February incident wasn't the first time Philadelphia police officers have confronted Fiorino about his unconcealed gun. Since July, he has been stopped twice and he has had an audio recorder on him each time in case a cop is having a bad day or doesn't understand the law, he said.
His handgun was confiscated once for five months, but neither occasion escalated like the third encounter.
Fiorino said he studied Pennsylvania law for a year before he started openly carrying a gun. He said he carries the gun openly because some of his friends have been held up at gunpoint and he's not willing to allow himself to be helpless.
Police spokesman Evers said Fiorino appears to be inviting trouble from the law by "surreptitiously" recording his encounters with police.
"If you put everything together, it was more than him walking down the street to go to an auto parts store -- without a jacket in the middle of winter," Evers said.
But Fiorino denies that he was looking for trouble.
"How many times does a convenience store need to be robbed to be justified in putting up a security system?" he said.
"..............Police spokesman Evers said Fiorino appears to be inviting trouble from the law by "surreptitiously" recording his encounters with police............"
The problem - now the people who follow the law are considered the enemy by the police.
And the police seriously wonder why they can't make any headway in the 'hood?
Team Sergeant
05-21-2011, 08:40
After this is over I'm guessing sergeant Dougherty will be putting in for the police officer equivalent of PTSD.
"I saw a man, walking down the streets of Philly WITH A GUN! And I LOST IT."
sergeant Dougherty, don't come to Arizona as tens of thousands of regular people carry guns in the open everywhere , every day.
Remember that black guy carrying an M-4 and packing a pistol outside an Arizona Tea Party Rally, and he was black? I'm guessing sergeant Dougherty would have just shot him.......
They definitely have some training issues to address. This article makes it sound like Fiorino had ulterior motives as well though. Middle of winter and not wearing a jacket? In PA? And carrying a recorder?
As stated in the previous thread, the best course of action would be to follow the officer's instructions and the situation would be resolved when the officers checked his permit.
Team Sergeant
05-21-2011, 08:53
They definitely have some training issues to address. This article makes it sound like Fiorino had ulterior motives as well though. Middle of winter and not wearing a jacket? In PA? And carrying a recorder?
As stated in the previous thread, the best course of action would be to follow the officer's instructions and the situation would be resolved when the officers checked his permit.
I'd do the same thing if I thought my "Rights" were/might be violated.......
Actually I would not, I set them up with a news crew filming.......
Ooooooo ....... the ACLU should be all over this.
This is clearly a violation of certain peoples civil liberties .....
Is it not ????? :munchin
....... Middle of winter and not wearing a jacket? In PA? And carrying a recorder?...........
Me? I would assume he didn't want to take the chance of a jacket possibly hiding the view of the weapon and then being charged with carrying a "concealed weapon". Example - wear a pistol on a leg holster below your top of the rear pocket length coat. Walk into some food joint, unzip your jacket, sit at the counter and lean forward. Concealed weapon? It's now not in plain sight.
I had a friend arrested for carrying a concealed weapon. It was a lock blade knife he had in his back pocket. When the cop was asked how he knew the guy had a concealed weapon - he said he could see the outline through the cloth of the pocket.
I do a lot of in and out work in the winter. I carry a coat in the car but most of the times just wear my shirt.
I'm assuming it's still legal to walk around without a coat in winter?
Fayetteville is having a problem with DWB right now. I'm begining to think the Civil Rights folks need to wire up a few slick cars with a few video cameras, get some hip-hop looking drivers and run them around town. See what happens.
5 years ago I would have been firmly on the cops side - "The dude deserved to be pulled". Now? The best I could say is I'm on the fence.
The Reaper
05-21-2011, 10:09
Anytime you are stopped by a LEO in a vehicle, odds are that a video camera is running.
Does that mean that the police are "inviting trouble" by recording encounters?
Most incidents which are not recorded have multiple versions of what happened.
I think that people who are doing what they are supposed to be doing and following SOPs have nothing to fear from being recorded.
And "Yo, Junior, what are you doing?" is an inappropriate, disrespectful, unprofessional way to start an interaction with a citizen.
TR
Masochist
05-21-2011, 11:38
They definitely have some training issues to address. This article makes it sound like Fiorino had ulterior motives as well though. Middle of winter and not wearing a jacket? In PA? And carrying a recorder?
As stated in the previous thread, the best course of action would be to follow the officer's instructions and the situation would be resolved when the officers checked his permit.
It was actually in the 50s that day (February 13th). I was in Eastern PA for Valentine's Day, and I wasn't wearing a coat, either. We went running in shorts that weekend, but that's just me. ;)
Ooooooo ....... the ACLU should be all over this.
This is clearly a violation of certain peoples civil liberties .....
Is it not ????? :munchin
No. Fiorno's white.
Me? I would assume he didn't want to take the chance of a jacket possibly hiding the view of the weapon and then being charged with carrying a "concealed weapon". Example - wear a pistol on a leg holster below your top of the rear pocket length coat. Walk into some food joint, unzip your jacket, sit at the counter and lean forward. Concealed weapon? It's now not in plain sight.
I had a friend arrested for carrying a concealed weapon. It was a lock blade knife he had in his back pocket. When the cop was asked how he knew the guy had a concealed weapon - he said he could see the outline through the cloth of the pocket.
I do a lot of in and out work in the winter. I carry a coat in the car but most of the times just wear my shirt.
I'm assuming it's still legal to walk around without a coat in winter?
Fayetteville is having a problem with DWB right now. I'm begining to think the Civil Rights folks need to wire up a few slick cars with a few video cameras, get some hip-hop looking drivers and run them around town. See what happens.
5 years ago I would have been firmly on the cops side - "The dude deserved to be pulled". Now? The best I could say is I'm on the fence.
If I am not mistaken, he stated that he had a CCW, which would have covered the concealment. Mistakes were made on both sides apparently.
If I am not mistaken, he stated that he had a CCW, which would have covered the concealment. Mistakes were made on both sides apparently.
Fiornio's obviously baiting the LEO's in order to further his gun rights advocacy and hopefully catch a cop displaying gross ignorance.
Worked in both cases.
If I am not mistaken, he stated that he had a CCW, which would have covered the concealment. Mistakes were made on both sides apparently.
sorry brother, but you are mistaken. He was Open Carrying, which is legal in Pa. Read the entirety of the interaction and listen to the recording.
No license, permit, nothing needed for OC.
Opencarry.org is an excellent site for rules, laws, regs on when and where you need what and when, in every state.
I personally turn on my DVR when I leave the house as I tend to OC a lot here in Fayetteville. It has 36 hrs of recordable time and the daily recording can be erased, making room for tomorrow. You never know when a clueless LEO will draw down on you and demand proof that you need permission to express your god given American right to defend yourself.
RTKBA.
Fiornio's obviously baiting the LEO's in order to further his gun rights advocacy and hopefully catch a cop displaying gross ignorance.
Worked in both cases.
That's an interesting twist on obeying the law. :cool:
sorry brother, but you are mistaken. He was Open Carrying, which is legal in Pa. Read the entirety of the interaction and listen to the recording.
No license, permit, nothing needed for OC.
Opencarry.org is an excellent site for rules, laws, regs on when and where you need what and when, in every state.
RTKBA.
He was in Philadelphia (a city of the First Class ) and according to Opencarry.org a permit is required there.
In Pennsylvania, persons 18 years of age and older whom are not prohibited by law from owning firearms may openly carry a handgun in plain sight with no license except in vehicles*, cities of the first class** (Philadelphia) and where prohibited specifically by statute.
Ref.: Title 18, ch.61, Subchapter A. Uniform Firearms Act & Commonwealth v. Ortiz
* Open carry in a vehicle requires a valid PA License to Carry Firearms (LTCF) or a carry license from ANY other state. Ref: Title 18 §6106
** Open carry in a city of the first class requires a valid PA LTCF or a carry license from a reciprocal state. Ref: Title 18 §6108, Title 18 §6106
Carrying concealed (with LTCF) or openly in establishments that serve alcohol is allowed in Pennsylvania.
There is no stipulation in neither the PA code nor case law that a PA LTCF holder must carry concealed. Furthermore, lawful open carry of a firearm is NOT grounds for revocation of a PA LTCF as it is neither an illegal nor dangerous act.
sorry brother, but you are mistaken. He was Open Carrying, which is legal in Pa. Read the entirety of the interaction and listen to the recording.
No license, permit, nothing needed for OC.
Opencarry.org is an excellent site for rules, laws, regs on when and where you need what and when, in every state.
I personally turn on my DVR when I leave the house as I tend to OC a lot here in Fayetteville. It has 36 hrs of recordable time and the daily recording can be erased, making room for tomorrow. You never know when a clueless LEO will draw down on you and demand proof that you need permission to express your god given American right to defend yourself.
RTKBA.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-vUYeJXSrA
Listen to it again. At 28 seconds, he asks the officer if he would like to see his driver license and permit to carry the firearm. At 37 seconds, he tells the officer "I am going to hand you my license to carry firearms." At 1:12, he says "I have a license to carry firearms." He stated the reason he carried in the open was because that was how he felt comfortable carrying it.
By what he said several times, he has a CCW permit. As for someone "baiting" an officer in some fashion, it happens all of the time. They do it to get out of tickets, to keep from being arrested, or just for the fame and notoriety.
My question is under what authority did the cop stop him? What law did the officer suspect was broken to cause him to stop the guy? My understanding, when I went through a law enforcement class, was a police officer can not just randomly stop some one, they have to have a reason. If open carry is legal in PA then the fact the guy had a firearm is NOT good enough. A lawyer please chime in on this.
All that is needed for an officer to interact with you is reasonable suspicion. Reasonable suspicion is a very low threshold. It can be anything from someone not looking like they belong in a certain neighborhood to your tags hanging by one bolt. In this case, whether it was correct or not, the officer saw an openly carried firearm where he was not used to seeing that sort of behavior.
Actually you have to be able to articulate that in court with facts. They brought up the point of some one looking like they don't belong or making "furtive movements" does NOT cut it today. You have to be able to articulate a fact like his license plate light was not working (a favorite) or other factual things. To say he did not look like he belonged is not good enough. Why did he not look like he belonged? What actions made you suspect he was committing an illegal act? You are right it is a very low threashhold, but there is a standard to be met. I would be intrested to see what the cops reason for making contact is. If the fact he was simply walking down the street LEGALLY carring a firearm and can not articulate WHAT illegal action he suspected and WHY the cop could be in deep do do. Now saying that the courts will probably back up the cop.
You are confusing reasonable suspicion to stop someone with probable cause to arrest someone. If I am cruising a neighborhood at 0300 and see someone walking down the street of a neighborhood, I can stop them and talk to them. At this point it is a field interview. The person does not have to stop nor talk to me, but I can walk with them and talk to them all I want.
As for this case, a person openly carrying a firearm in this particular area was suspicious in the officer's mind as this obviously does not happen often, if at all, in this area. That gave the officer a reason to talk to him. Where the officer went wrong was with his attitude and initial contact methods. If you are looking for the initial contact to be unconstitutional or wrong, it wasn't.
Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1 (1968), was a decision by the United States Supreme Court which held that the Fourth Amendment prohibition on unreasonable searches and seizures is not violated when a police officer stops a suspect on the street and frisks him without probable cause to arrest, if the police officer has a reasonable suspicion that the person has committed, is committing, or is about to commit a crime and has a reasonable belief that the person "may be armed and presently dangerous." (392 U.S. 1, at 30.)
http://supreme.justia.com/constitution/amendment-04/13-stop-and-frisk.html
This link gives several examples of reasonable suspicion and Terry Stops. Given the incident we are talking about, an initial Terry Stop could be articulated all day. Again, the problem the officer has is that he was unfamiliar with the open carry law and did not appear to listen when told by the suspect that he had a CCW permit. All it would have taken was looking at the permit.
If I am not mistaken, he stated that he had a CCW, which would have covered the concealment. Mistakes were made on both sides apparently.
I've heard of "states" that say in their CCW code, that if you have a permit for CCW, you can not carry open, because the action would be considered 'brandishing'. Or, a man walks into deli, he orders a cup of coffee. He lifts his jacket to reach for his wallet and someone yells, "He's got a gun!"
I'd be the first to turn around to look to see who they're talking about, Shit I think, I hope they're not talking about me?
The purpose of a CCW is to carry a weapon concealed. When I reach for my wallet, I do so, not in a willy nilly manner. Perhaps I place a $5 note in my front pocket before I order my drink. Maybe I'm thinking to much about it, thinking I have to consider every action I take before I take it. Maybe nothing has changed in 100,000 years of mankind walking around. Maybe I should be more concerned about the chandeleier falling on my head, maybe the who damn system is just going to crap, and I should just stay home.
Good thing it's only a permit to carry, not a permit to use.
Seems the individual has been carrying for a year, has been stopped before, had his weapon taken and held for five months after one stop. Maybe that led to carrying a recorder.
Statement here is interesting.
"Our officers weren't up to speed [because] we never really addressed it," said Lt. Francis Healy, the department's lawyer.
"In the last several weeks, we've done a lot of training and put out a lot of information about what is allowed and what's not allowed. Right now, our officers are better-versed on the subject matter."
Healy said he emphasized the importance of officers being polite and professional if they have to stop a person who is legally carrying a firearm.
"You can use caution, but you don't need to curse them up and down and put a gun in their face," he said. - articles.philly.com/2011-05-16/news/29548742_1_firearms-license-youtube-clips-gun-rights
Thanks for the correction WCH.....I won't be visiting Pa in the near future.
NC is much much different....:cool:
The Reaper
05-22-2011, 08:15
I have not worked with a PD in as long time, but when was the last time you saw a criminal carrying a handgun in a holster?
I had a cousin who worked vice almost 30 years. I asked him why he had his weapon stuck in his waistband, and he said that a holster would blow his cover. In the old days, a holster was a tip off that the wearer was either a licensed carrier or a cop.
TR
I have not worked with a PD in as long time, but when was the last time you saw a criminal carrying a handgun in a holster?
I had a cousin who worked vice almost 30 years. I asked him why he had his weapon stuck in his waistband, and he said that a holster would blow his cover. In the old days, a holster was a tip off that the wearer was either a licensed carrier or a cop.
TR
For the most part, that is still true today. There is the occassional instance of some mentally disturbed individual who has come into possession of a firearm, domestic situation, etc.
LEOs receive bulletins all of the time with information on gangs of all types. One of the emphasized points is the increased occurrence of gang members (this includes everything from street gangs to outlaw MCs) with military experience and training. This makes a lot of LEOs nervous, especially if they can see a firearm, as they don't have any military experience. A recent bulletin was circulated specifically about NC outlaw MCs. One of the Fayetteville HA members was mentioned by name, whom I happened to work with at one time in SFAS and was former 7th Grp. Because of some recent problems we had in Wilson, I was asked a lot of questions about it to enhance awareness.
If an officer sees a firearm, they are probably going to check the individual out. If that person is legit, there should not be a problem with following instructions until the situation is resolved. The first thought of the officer is not going to be "oh, this guy is carrying, he must have a CCW permit", it is going to be "I see a firearm, I need to see what is going on."
Last year in Denver, with a few friends visiting from out of town, early one morning and without much thought and no other plans we headed out to the range.
Upon returning home, the idea of eating food sounded like a real good idea. I drew short straw to walk the 50' into the Deli and pay for lunch. I chose to leave my weapon in the truck, (because 6 Denver PD traffic motorcycles were parked outside), but I was still wearing boots, pants, holster, and left side ammo pounch.
Upon leaving the counter with 4 sandwhich combos and drinks in hand, the youngest of the officers asked me why I was wearing a holster and ammo pounch. Looking around the table I recognized 4 of the officers, assuming they put the young one up to it in asking the question. I said, "We wanted to eat before we hit the bank accross town, my friends are outside in the truck loading magazines."
His eyes lit up. I'm standing there holding an arm load of food, he doesn't know what to do. A long 5 second pause, the older officers start laughing and introduce me to the kid.
I tell him I can teach him to shoot better. He looks around at his lunch buddies, alot of heads go up and down, and you can hear "Yep", in stero.
Last year in Denver, with a few friends visiting from out of town, early one morning and without much thought and no other plans we headed out to the range.
Upon returning home, the idea of eating food sounded like a real good idea. I drew short straw to walk the 50' into the Deli and pay for lunch. I chose to leave my weapon in the truck, (because 6 Denver PD traffic motorcycles were parked outside), but I was still wearing boots, pants, holster, and left side ammo pounch.
Upon leaving the counter with 4 sandwhich combos and drinks in hand, the youngest of the officers asked me why I was wearing a holster and ammo pounch. Looking around the table I recognized 4 of the officers, assuming they put the young one up to it in asking the question. I said, "We wanted to eat before we hit the bank accross town, my friends are outside in the truck loading magazines."
His eyes lit up. I'm standing there holding an arm load of food, he doesn't know what to do. A long 5 second pause, the older officers start laughing and introduce me to the kid.
I tell him I can teach him to shoot better. He looks around at his lunch buddies, alot of heads go up and down, and you can hear "Yep", in stero.
That is hilarious!. I bet you could hear the wheels spinning in the kid's head.
That is hilarious!. I bet you could hear the wheels spinning in the kid's head.
The kid was lucky enough to get traffic duty on a big Harley, downtown, pretty girls, summer dresses.
He must've known some one.
Bet in twenty years, he's the chief. He'll go from traffic to detective and never see Five Points or a cruiser.