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swatsurgeon
05-12-2011, 19:54
If you had the choice of a carbine that fires typical handgun rounds (9, .40, .45) which one would you choose and why. Have fired the hK UMP in .45 but know nothing of the ballistics out of that weapon. 9mm is cheaper than other two calibers but interms of ballistic profile, which is a better choice.

Backround: having a carbine (16" barrel) that uses same ammo as sidearm seems like a reasonable idea.....analogy to back up gun same caliber as primary sidearm, etc. Good for camping and car long gun??

Opinions.......??

ss

Peregrino
05-12-2011, 20:05
Stick with the 9mm. Check out CMMG, then Rock River and don't deviate from an AR platform. It'll mostly be for plinking anyway so why not get the cheapest one to feed with the longest track record for reliability/quality, and availability of magazines/accessories? If you go with the CMMG you can get just the upper and use it on your M4gery lower with a magazine adapter and a buffer. Saves even more money. But that's just my .02, YMMV. :p

(When I said plinking - that's what I meant. 16" has better ballistics for the pistol cartrige but there's a reason real shooters use 5.56 for their long(er) guns. Personally, I'd stick with a standard 5.56 and get a dedicated .22 LR upper to train with. All the guys in my office agree - they can't quit drooling over mine and after our range session several have already spent money to get their own.)

ES 96
05-12-2011, 20:11
Do you have your eye on a Marlin Camp carbine (9mm or .45 ACP) or Ruger Police carbine (9mm or .40 S&W) per chance?

both out of production but come up pretty regularly used:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marlin_Camp_Carbine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruger_Police_Carbine

doctom54
05-12-2011, 20:36
I have the Marlin Camp carbine in .45. I picked it because it uses the same magazine as the 1911. (If your going to have interchangeable ammo you might as well use the same mags.) Also I don't own any 9mms since I'm trying to stick to as few different calibers as possible.
CSM Galen "Pappy" Kittleson in the book "Raider: The True Story of the Legendary Soldier Who Performed More POW Raids than Any Other American in History" said he preferred the Thompson for use in the jungle.
I'm not sure of .45 ACP ballistics out of a 16 inch barrel. I'm in the middle of a move or I'd chrono a few different rounds.

MK262MOD1
05-12-2011, 20:38
I have a AR45 with magwell cut to take grease gun magazines and a AR15 with Hahn block and 9mm upper that takes sten magazines. Both guns are blowback and very reliable.

I like the AR45 but 45 ACP isn't cheap and its super easy to run through a ton of it. Buy far it is my favorite pistol carbine. I actually put 45 rounds through mine today.

I enjoy the 9mm carbine because 9 ball is cheaper these days. Therefore more range/training time.

If I was to buy a pistol carbine today I would absolutely go with a AR platform and the edge goes to 9mm cartridge.

I would recommend the RRA or Colt. Rock River being the more economical and 9mm being the economical caliber.

That all being said my go to carbine will always be 5.56mm.

MK262M1 sends

Axe
05-12-2011, 21:44
If I'm going to deal with the increased size and weight of a rifle, I personally want to get something much better than slightly increased pistol performance from that rifle.

I do enjoy plinking with camp carbines, though.

Dusty
05-13-2011, 03:48
If you had the choice of a carbine that fires typical handgun rounds (9, .40, .45) which one would you choose and why. Have fired the hK UMP in .45 but know nothing of the ballistics out of that weapon. 9mm is cheaper than other two calibers but interms of ballistic profile, which is a better choice.

Backround: having a carbine (16" barrel) that uses same ammo as sidearm seems like a reasonable idea.....analogy to back up gun same caliber as primary sidearm, etc. Good for camping and car long gun??

Opinions.......??

ss

If you're shooting ball ammo to kill, use .45 ACP. With 9mm HP projectiles, the round slows down enough upon penetration to transfer sufficient energy to kill.
Just hit a lethal zone.

Don't know what you plan on for a maximum range...

Quick trajectory info:

http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_trajectory_table.htm

I use this ballistic data for reference:

http://www.angelfire.com/art/enchanter/terminal.html

I'm an oddball about carbines, though. I like .30 cal. :D

JJ_BPK
05-13-2011, 04:15
I have mulled this question for yrs. And I still haven't seen what I think is a "carbine" in pistol caliber. The problem I have with the AR format is size. It can be stripped but is not light. And I don't see 100 rd mags or belt feed as a requirement.

What I do have is a 1969 circa, Ruger .44 mag Deerstalker Carbine. It looks like and feels like the Ruger 10/22, with more punch. It has a tube feed for 4 rounds, so it is not HI-SPEED. It is only about 5.5 lbs loaded. It handles and shoots well. I took an ammo sock for 30.06 and mounted it on the stock, holds 18 rounds. Mounted an older Aimpoint,, Should get me past the initial charge, until I get back-up.

Net Net,, your requirement for a carbine need definition.

Hi-speed??
Plinking??
Home Protection??
Hunting??

I get all scenarios covered by the Ruger,, until the Zombies come, in which case I have AR, AK, FAL, xxx choices..

Don't forget the AK, med-light, plinker, ammo prices coming down, if you run out, your neighbor probably has a stash of ammo,, so do the Zombies.. It has a real folding stock or no stock in the case of a pistol...

Not saying the .22 AR upper,, (or in pistol cal) doesn't make sense... But ,, I am a cheepo,, 500 USD for 1/2 a gun is border line. My Ruger was less than 400 USD,, currently you can find the older ones for around 500+-

:munchin

Here is my Ruger, my AK pistol and an example of a custom AK pistol I lust for..

swatsurgeon
05-13-2011, 04:54
Thank you one and all for the opinions....
I have my AR-15 in 5.56, it is a 'go to' gun but a new carbine is to utilize handgun ammo which is everywhere....literally. I have a 7.62x39 that is around 6lbs but despite ammo becoming cheaper, it is not in any volume at the local walmart and handgun ammo is. Most of my neighbors don't have one so that source is a no go.
This carbine could be used for hunting, personal defense or skills practice; all to be economical and have readily available source of ammo. Just seemed intuitive to have 2 weapon systems and one ammo type.
I have to keep thinking about this one.........:confused:

JJ_BPK
05-13-2011, 05:07
I have a 7.62x39 that is around 6lbs but despite ammo becoming cheaper, it is not in any volume at the local walmart and handgun ammo is.

Most of my neighbors don't have one so that source is a no go.


On line ammo is about as good as it gets. Also 1K case is where you save the paso's..

I guess I'd move out of that neighborhood,, You don't have a defensive position with depth. You will end up being the go-to guy for all the Sheeple around you.

You have only two choices,, as I see it...


Butch up the neighbors, Start a neighborhood surveillance team, Change the Sheeple to Operators.. Start rucking classes...

Move to the trailer park down by the tracks,, Lower taxes, Less lawn to mow, Every neighbor becomes a relative over time, and the week after payday (when everyone is broke),, you can get great deals on weapons & ammo..


Good Luck.. :D

Dusty
05-13-2011, 05:19
On line ammo is about as good as it gets. Also 1K case is where you save the paso's..

I guess I'd move out of that neighborhood,, You don't have a defensive position with depth. You will end up being the go-to guy for all the Sheeple around you.

You have only two choices,, as I see it...


Butch up the neighbors, Start a neighborhood surveillance team, Change the Sheeple to Operators.. Start rucking classes...

Move to the trailer park down by the tracks,, Lower taxes, Less lawn to mow, Every neighbor becomes a relative over time, and the week after payday (when everyone is broke),, you can get great deals on weapons & ammo..


Good Luck.. :D

Every neighbor becomes a relative over time :D:D

ES 96
05-13-2011, 05:54
I have to keep thinking about this one.........:confused:

Dream of integrally suppressed .45 ACP Marlin carbines, not so noisy, won't wake you up ;):

18806

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCsLimevhd4

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ca4_rkEcF_8

The Reaper
05-13-2011, 08:06
I'm with the consensus.

I am not giving up my M-4, or humping a seven pound rifle shooting pistol rounds.

I do have a couple of cowboy carbines in .357 and .44 Magnum, and I like what they offer with those rounds, but I would not carry them in lieu of a rifle calibered long gun.

I have spent some time with Uzis and MP5s, and the same holds true there.

If the issue is ammo cost, you can get a drop in .22 conversion or a 7.62x39 weapon. The 7.62x39 is cheaper than the 9mm ammo.

To your original question, I like the .45 better for social work, and the 9mm better for range time.

TR

longrange1947
05-13-2011, 11:53
..................................

To your original question, I like the .45 better for social work, and the 9mm better for range time.

TR


Agreed, the wonder nine is really I wonder why it's so popular. It is a short cased 38 Special. :munchin :D

PSM
05-14-2011, 19:20
I guess I'd move out of that neighborhood,, You don't have a defensive position with depth.

Good Luck.. :D

Got that covered. We're 14 miles from the border and the Border Patrol is 20. They have our back! :D

Pat

El Cid
05-15-2011, 20:31
If I could afford one I'd get an HK MP5 clone in 10mm. Out of a carbine, 10mm is a great performer. I had to give up my duty one, but would have gladly kept it. We use the Federal 190gr JHP but if you can get the "hi" locking piece (as in high pressure), you could look at using "real" 10mm instead of .40 Long.

Another option, especially since you want interchangeability with your sidearm... look at the Kriss TDI (they have fixed some of the teething problems from the early models), and a G21. Same ammo, same mags.

Let us know what you decide.

grog18b
05-18-2011, 13:36
I carried the Baretta 40cal as a duty weapon for years. I bought an Oly 40cal upper for my duty carbine. I liked it very much. It was more accurate than the pistol, and gave much more distance options than the pistol. The reasons I bought the Oly 40 were; free ammo, need of a carbine for duty, and ability of using the same ammo in my carbine, as well as magazines. I bought two large capacity mags for the Baretta, and modified them to work in the AR. The standard 40 Oly upper uses Sten magazines, modified by the addition of a mag block to the magazine itself.

The Oly 40 I used has an 11.5" barrel with welded flash hider, to bring it to 16". Since I got the SBR lower, I removed same useless flash hider. I'd like to chrono it. I would imagine you would get more FPS out of an 11.5" barrel, as opposed to the short Baretta barrel. The accuracy of the carbine with the 40 pistol ammo was nice.

My .02c, GROG

Oh, and when I added it to the M203, I could call it my 40/40... :D
http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o134/grog18b/IMG_3127.jpg

Dusty
05-18-2011, 13:44
I saw an interview with a Sheriff who carried a M1928A1. Heavy, but pretty good at normal gunfight range, I guess.

It would flat tear up a car door.

JJ_BPK
05-18-2011, 14:52
I saw an interview with a Sheriff who carried a M1928A1. Heavy, but pretty good at normal gunfight range, I guess.

It would flat tear up a car door.

When I was younger, I had a nut for the Thompson,, Until I picked one up.

They go just short of 11 lbs empty.

Grab a couple of 50 rd drums or bag of 20rd mags,, and you have the makings of a good hernia story..

:D :lifter:lifter:D

Dohhunter
05-18-2011, 16:19
.300 Whisper? :D

Blitzzz (RIP)
05-18-2011, 17:03
The new Kriss vector SMG. appears to be the hot item.
45 cal, low recoil , 5.5 lbs, and full auto available.

mark46th
05-18-2011, 21:36
TR- I have a Ruger SS Security Six in .357 Magnum as a side arm when I hunt pigs. I have thought about getting a Lever-action in the same for shits and giggles. If I find a deal on one, I will buy it. I have a Ruger .44 Mag Deerfield that I picked up from a friend who needed some cash... Fun to mess around with....

The Reaper
05-19-2011, 06:32
TR- I have a Ruger SS Security Six in .357 Magnum as a side arm when I hunt pigs. I have thought about getting a Lever-action in the same for shits and giggles. If I find a deal on one, I will buy it. I have a Ruger .44 Mag Deerfield that I picked up from a friend who needed some cash... Fun to mess around with....

Nice piece.

Avoid the Winchester .357 carbines like the plague.

I got less than 50 rounds through a brand new one and the cartridge stop lip on the loading lever broke off and jammed it up.

My gunsmith welded it up, but said most of the Win 94 carbines he had seen in .357 had this problem.

Depending on the size of the pigs, I like the Marlin Guide Guns in .45-70 with handloads. Not a good pistol round though.

TR

Bill Harsey
05-19-2011, 06:49
TR,
I've handled one of the .45-70 revolvers and it's owner had shot it.
"Owner" was Col. Rex Applegate. Why did he have one? Because he could.

On serious note, handguns have to be shootable. I've shot "stupid" calibers before, stuff that makes a .44 magnum feel like a .22. You can get real injuries from recoil, the stuff that doesn't heal very well.

Dusty
05-19-2011, 07:07
The most enjoyable way to kill a hog is with dogs and a knife.

That's what I heard.

mark46th
05-19-2011, 07:59
Dusty- And I heard that if you put your tongue on a frozen flagpole, it won't stick to it!

TR- Thanks for the info on the Win 94. I use a M70 in .270 or a Rem 700 in .308 for pigs. Here in California, most shots for pig are across canyons or hills. The one thing I want to do sometime is have a Milsurp pig hunt. I have a K31 that I would like to try in the field...

Dusty
05-19-2011, 08:02
Dusty- And I heard that if you put your tongue on a frozen flagpole, it won't stick to it!

TR- Thanks for the info on the Win 94. I use a M70 in .270 or a Rem 700 in .308 for pigs. Here in California, most shots for pig are across canyons or hills. The one thing I want to do sometime is have a Milsurp pig hunt. I have a K31 that I would like to try in the field...

Hey, ark orty ik! I ought oo aid y ongue ouldn' ick!

longrange1947
05-19-2011, 09:20
.....................
On serious note, handguns have to be shootable. I've shot "stupid" calibers before, stuff that makes a .44 magnum feel like a .22. You can get real injuries from recoil, the stuff that doesn't heal very well.

Bill, I can tell you from experience that a 30.06 pistol is not fun to shoot! Yes, the wrist will hurt for a "bit" aftewards. Yes, I can be stupid at times. :D

The Reaper
05-19-2011, 09:27
TR,
I've handled one of the .45-70 revolvers and it's owner had shot it.
"Owner" was Col. Rex Applegate. Why did he have one? Because he could.

On serious note, handguns have to be shootable. I've shot "stupid" calibers before, stuff that makes a .44 magnum feel like a .22. You can get real injuries from recoil, the stuff that doesn't heal very well.

I shot a .50 Peacekeeper in a Thompson Center pistol with JD Jones one day.

I think I'll stick with the long gun version.

TR

MVP
05-19-2011, 10:40
I once shot an 8.5 inch barreled side by side 12 ga. Still have the scar in the web of my right hand caused by the locking lever:rolleyes:

mark46th
05-19-2011, 19:38
LMAO, Dusty....

TF Kilo
08-19-2011, 03:00
What about a multi-caliber platform like the MGI Hydra? I fell across that in my stumblings and it seems as though it'd be handy in some regards... just for the utility that you could have in some instances.

It'd satisfy my desire for a .45 carbine as well as 5.56 and 7.62x39.

Not totally sold on it though, biggest issue would be the company being small. Seems everything's sold out in their store. I don't personally know if they just have a small production line, or if they have a decent size one that's feeding "interesting things" overseas.

The Reaper
08-19-2011, 17:44
What about a multi-caliber platform like the MGI Hydra? I fell across that in my stumblings and it seems as though it'd be handy in some regards... just for the utility that you could have in some instances.

It'd satisfy my desire for a .45 carbine as well as 5.56 and 7.62x39.

Not totally sold on it though, biggest issue would be the company being small. Seems everything's sold out in their store. I don't personally know if they just have a small production line, or if they have a decent size one that's feeding "interesting things" overseas.

The owner is a former 18B.

What do you need to know?

TR

TF Kilo
08-19-2011, 23:00
I re-read the thread to make sure I hadn't missed a MGI weapon owner here, then realized you were talking about Mr. Gwinn. I had read that he was SF off their website, as well as his weapons manufacture pedigree to boot. It leads me to believe it's a solid system.

Specific questions about the MGI system:


How much point of impact shift is there between barrel swaps... specifically different barrels. I understand that ballistics will be different and zeroing would be the definitive action to ensure accuracy, but with the same 2 barrels and being zeroed with barrel A, is the POI shift reliable enough to tack down as "10 clicks up, 23 clicks right and good for 7.62x39 from 5.56"?
What's the shift from pulling and reinstalling the same barrel? I realize that asking for it to return to a perfect zero is probably asking too much, but I'm more concerned with it returning to "close enough for 300m or less work" or some semblance thereof.



Other general questions would be the usual firearms questions... how do you like it, what problems have you had, how is their customer service for any issues you have had, how long did it take from order to in hand, etc.

The concept in general, and video I have seen is compelling. On the military side, I could see the utility due to being able to retain all the weapon accessories yet run locally procured ammunition if necessary. It seems that it'd have even more value for a civilian simply because you could maximize range time using whatever ammunition you could get cheapest.

Gun shop has a sale on .45? Buy a case and toss the .45 barrel in your rifle, tweak your zero accordingly and go to town. Com-Bloc ammo on sale at big 5? same deal.

not quite as good as having a weapon for every caliber, but being able to maintain generally the same manual of arms between calibers would have it's value. It also appears to be cheaper to change calibers than to buy a whole new weapon system specifically for X caliber as well.

MadDogG
09-19-2011, 20:45
Just my opinion, and it's just that, I don't know maybe I should keep it to myself, but....pistol rounds were designed for pistols. Unless you have a specific need for a carbine style pistol, keep those rounds where they belong in a pistol. The same is true with a rifle. I would imagine that your wanting the interchangeability for a SHTF scenario, and in which case sir....forget about it. You have a battlerifle. THe pistol should be for in case you run out of ammo for the rifle or to get to it, in that situation or for places where a rifle would not be feasible to carry. If it's for trigger time, take the advice of the QP's and get a drop in .22 conversion. WOuld give you the versatility that your really looking for, as far as being able to take small game if necassary, and keeping it in a more powerful configuration when not hunting or plinking. It's a sound choice, and you can find a guy on youtube called nut n fancy who uses those .22 conversions for just that, plinking. It's economical and cheaper than buying an entirely new system. Beyond that there are many places that you can order ammo off of the internet, use the $600-$1000 dollars you would have spent on a new weapon and buy ammo for the ones you already have. You do not need an FFL to order ammo, and they will ship it to your front door, and you can find some very, very good deals. And walmart ammo, personally I would stay away from. I have heard some very, very bad things about walmart, and barrels after a year. Plus....you can get ammo pretty cheap, as cheap, if not cheaper in some cases off of the internet than you can walmart, and name brand stuff too. So....that's my opinion, I hope it helps you some.

Blitzzz (RIP)
09-19-2011, 22:23
Depending on the pistol size, there are the following from Rossi in a lever action rifle:

Available in .38/.357, .44 Mag,. .45 Colt, .44-40 Win and .454 Casull. The R92 round barrel comes in two finish options – blue and stainless. All round barrel models feature crescent buttplates and an extended front sight. For brush hunting and wilderness packing, Rossi R92 carbine .454 Casull features optional magazine-tube loading and recoil absorbing butt pad. MSRP $590.00 - $757.00.

Also Mech Tech builds a 45acp upper that attaches to your 1911 lower and gives you a 18in barreled rifle.

mojaveman
09-19-2011, 22:54
Depending on the pistol size, there are the following from Rossi in a lever action rifle:

Available in .38/.357, .44 Mag,. .45 Colt, .44-40 Win and .454 Casull. The R92 round barrel comes in two finish options – blue and stainless. All round barrel models feature crescent buttplates and an extended front sight. For brush hunting and wilderness packing, Rossi R92 carbine .454 Casull features optional magazine-tube loading and recoil absorbing butt pad. MSRP $590.00 - $757.00.

Agree, they are well made and look nice. Have one in .38/.357 and like how those calibers improve out of a 20" barrel.