View Full Version : Nearly Half of Detroit Illiterate
http://detroit.cbslocal.com/2011/05/04/report-nearly-half-of-detroiters-cant-read/
DETROIT (WWJ) – According to a new report, 47 percent of Detroiters are ”functionally illiterate.” The alarming new statistics were released by the Detroit Regional Workforce Fund on Wednesday.
WWJ Newsradio 950 spoke with the Fund’s Director, Karen Tyler-Ruiz, who explained exactly what this means.
“Not able to fill out basic forms, for getting a job — those types of basic everyday (things). Reading a prescription; what’s on the bottle, how many you should take… just your basic everyday tasks,” she said.
“I don’t really know how they get by, but they do. Are they getting by well? Well, that’s another question,” Tyler-Ruiz said.
Some of the Detroit suburbs also have high numbers of functionally illiterate: 34 percent in Pontiac and 24 percent in Southfield.
“For other major urban areas, we are a little bit on the high side… We compare, slightly higher, to Washington D.C.’s urban population, in certain ZIP codes in Washington D.C. and in Cleveland,” she said.
Tyler-Ruiz said only 10 percent of those who can’t read have gotten any help to resolve it.
The report will be used to provide better training for local workers.
Bet the crime rate's real low, though...
47%. Hmmm. Roughly the same percentage of the Country who voted Democrat in 2008.:munchin
1stindoor
05-05-2011, 10:50
Tyler-Ruiz said only 10 percent of those who can’t read have gotten any help to resolve it.
It could be because they used programs like "call 1-800-ABC-DEFG"
Or maybe I'm the only one that found that commercial ironic.
PedOncoDoc
05-05-2011, 10:55
I wonder how much of that 47% is due to a lack of basic understanding of the English language??? This would equate to functional illiteracy.
1stindoor
05-05-2011, 11:10
I wonder how much of that 47% is due to a lack of basic understadning of the English language??? This would equate to functional illiteracy.
...or a basic understanding of spelling?
Sorry...it was just too easy and I'm in a jovial mood.
Roguish Lawyer
05-05-2011, 11:19
and the Red Wings suck too
PedOncoDoc
05-05-2011, 11:23
Thank you gentlemen, may I have another? :D
I wonder how much of that 47% is due to a lack of basic understaning of the English language??? This would equate to functional illiteracy.
...or to being too fucking lazy to learn anything?
...or to thinking it's "dumb" to be smart?
...or to having one parent who doesn't give a shit whether they go to school or sell crack?
...or being born with an IQ lower than squid nuts?
...or because they scare the fuck out of the educators?
It's everybody's fault but the individual. They're all victims of oppression.:rolleyes:
PedOncoDoc
05-05-2011, 11:54
...or to being too fucking lazy to learn anything?
...or to thinking it's "dumb" to be smart?
...or to having one parent who doesn't give a shit whether they go to school or sell crack?
...or being born with an IQ lower than squid nuts?
...or because they scare the fuck out of the educators?
It's everybody's fault but the individual. They're all victims of oppression.:rolleyes:
Agree with the above as serious problems. The low IQ is not a correctable problem. The others...potentially could be fixed, but I won't hold my breath while their holding their hand out.
Lack of effort to learn the language is right up there with the others. I know there are large Spanish-speaking and middle eastern populations in the area - many of whom can't speak/read a lick of English and don't care to learn.
Roguish Lawyer
05-05-2011, 11:58
...or to being too fucking lazy to learn anything?
...or to thinking it's "dumb" to be smart?
...or to having one parent who doesn't give a shit whether they go to school or sell crack?
...or being born with an IQ lower than squid nuts?
...or because they scare the fuck out of the educators?
It's everybody's fault but the individual. They're all victims of oppression.:rolleyes:
If we ever meet, you are not paying for drinks.
Agree with the above as serious problems. The low IQ is not a correctable problem.
Re:
http://www.iqtestexperts.com/iq-education.php
PedOncoDoc
05-05-2011, 12:28
Re:
http://www.iqtestexperts.com/iq-education.php
IQ test performance and the cognitive ability are two different things. There is no single method that is generally agreed upon with which to properly test the latter.
I can't find the reference, but there was a great article looking at IQ test performance between suburban and urban children. The urban children performed much more poorly on the test, but were much better trained at daily tasks (e.g. preparing their own meal and indepently performing other necessary tasks) which raised concerns about validity of the testing.
Another example: urban children typically are potty-trained earlier - in part because many poorer families put a lot of effort into this to save money on diapers.
It's everybody's fault but the individual. They're all victims of oppression.:rolleyes:
Bro, you are so out of touch...haven't you heard...it takes a village.;)
http://books.simonandschuster.com/It-Takes-a-Village/Hillary-Rodham-Clinton/9781416540649
1stindoor
05-05-2011, 12:57
Thank you gentlemen, may I have another? :D
Sure...wait right here...
I wonder how much of that 47% is due to a lack of basic understaning of the English language??? This would equate to functional illiteracy.
I'd give you a "d" in spelling...but you (edited)probably wouldn't understand why.:D
I'd give you a "[B]d" in spelling...but you would probably wouldn't understand why.:D
Hey, anyone need any extra 'would'? 1stindoor seems to have a few extra lying around.
1stid: When you go home tonight to that little hot teacher you're married to, tell her you need some extra tutoring and discipline, ok? :D
1stindoor
05-05-2011, 13:23
Hey, anyone need any extra 'would'? 1stindoor seems to have a few extra lying around.
1stid: When you go home tonight to that little hot teacher you're married to, tell her you need some extra tutoring and discipline, ok? :D
Crap! :eek: Well done Jill.
...or to being too fucking lazy to learn anything?
...or to thinking it's "dumb" to be smart?
...or to having one parent who doesn't give a shit whether they go to school or sell crack?
...or being born with an IQ lower than squid nuts?
...or because they scare the fuck out of the educators?
It's everybody's fault but the individual. They're all victims of oppression.:rolleyes:
OH NO YOU DIDN'T SAY DHAT.......moving my head side to side as I type. I have nothing to add. It is written above.
Red Flag 1
05-05-2011, 15:44
Hey, anyone need any extra 'would'? 1stindoor seems to have a few extra lying around.
1stid: When you go home tonight to that little hot teacher you're married to, tell her you need some extra tutoring and discipline, ok? :D
Dis be a purtty tuff bord if you axe me
RF 1
The urban children performed much more poorly on the test, but were much better trained at daily tasks (e.g. preparing their own meal and indepently performing other necessary tasks) which raised concerns about validity of the testing.
PedOncoDoc,
You're the expert, but wouldn't the abilities/potential measured in an IQ test (solving problems not seen before) be of a very different nature than those measured from the ability to repeat a process over and over (mix eggs, milk, flour, pour in pan and...... pancakes) after being shown exactly how?
Keying on the word "trained".
The low IQ is not a correctable problem.
If that's the case they shouldn't be allowed to breed.
As far as language barriers, my ancestors all came to this country not knowing how to read or speak English. They did their best and made sure the children DID learn.
The difference between my ancestors and the current immigrants, legal or illegal, is there is no desire to learn or assimilate.
I notice that San Antonio has a 25% functional illiteracy rate. LINK (http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/article/Time-to-solve-the-illiteracy-problem-793080.php?c=y&page=1). I can't say I'm surprised.
The problem with IQ is that there are, arguably, different kinds of learning. The politically correct approach is to suggest that the ability to use public transportation to get to a job, or to cook something to feed a family, or to deal with the food stamp system represents one kind of intelligence, co-equal with the type of intelligence needed to solve a simple math problem or follow a set of written instructions.
IQ tests in general produce a normal distribution curve. Various groups have different curves, and the mean value for those groups differ. The text "The Bell Curve" addresses this.
Which measures are best? I think I'll avoid stepping into that minefield. ;)
Can everyone be taught something? Sure. But can everyone be taught some particular set of skills? I doubt it. Until we recognize this disparity and act accordingly, I doubt we'll make much progress with illiteracy.
Until we recognize this disparity and act accordingly, I doubt we'll make much progress with illiteracy.
Don't you think if teachers were teaching reading, penmanship, writing etc instead of why it's okay for Johnny to have two mommies that it would make a difference? I learned all those things, my generation wasn't perfect but it wasn't this horrible.
There are kids in my nieces/nephews school that cannot tell time looking at a regular clock. They cannot make change from a dollar. They are not being taught to cursive write...because there are computers. It goes on and on and it pisses me off because there is no need for this to be happening.
Fuck that psychobabble mumbo-jumbo. I was born a dumbass; learned how to tie my shoes, use a fork, read, balance a checkbook, blah, blah...
You can teach 'em if they wanna learn.
Don't you think if teachers were teaching reading, penmanship, writing etc instead of why it's okay for Johnny to have two mommies that it would make a difference? I learned all those things, my generation wasn't perfect but it wasn't this horrible.
Yes, it would make a difference.
Another issue is the emphasis on standardized tests. Schools do need to be held accountable - but the way standardized tests are used seems counterproductive. Teachers need to teach the worthwhile skills Gypsy mentions instead of teaching to the test. MOO, YMMV.
I can't find the reference, but there was a great article looking at IQ test performance between suburban and urban children. The urban children performed much more poorly on the test, but were much better trained at daily tasks
Doc:
A similar study shows that kids from welfare homes hear only about 600 words an hour, while kids from better-off homes hear about 2,100 words an hour. By the age of 4, the welfare kids had heard 13 million words. The other kids had heard 48 million. By age nine, the children in this study were given an oral IQ test and the scores correlated to the amount of language they heard. (BTW, television/radio didn't count as "hearing" the spoken word. Parents actually need to interact with their children. Imagine that.) *
I suspect that Detroit's illiteracy problem is complex (as Dusty so eloquently detailed for us. :D Thank you, Dusty.) and not easily remedied. I suspect the majority of the kids in that area would fall into the same category as the welfare kids in the study above. Reading and oral-language proficiency are intimately linked. (I've seen this one first-hand through my son, who has speech/language issues and struggles to read as a result. He's much better at non-verbal tasks.)
Why these kids are on welfare and why their parents/teachers/social workers are failing them is the question. It's tragic. Like Gypsy said, it didn't used to be this way.
Susan
*Dr. Todd Risely, researcher
PedOncoDoc
05-05-2011, 19:01
PedOncoDoc,
You're the expert, but wouldn't the abilities/potential measured in an IQ test (solving problems not seen before) be of a very different nature than those measured from the ability to repeat a process over and over (mix eggs, milk, flour, pour in pan and...... pancakes) after being shown exactly how?
Keying on the word "trained".
The ability to acquire and apply new knowledge is part of most accepted IQ tests - but those require a solid understanding of the language in which they are administered. I'm sure I wouldn't score to well if I had to take a test in Spanish, let-alone in Arabic.
Logic and reasoning can be trained to an extent, same with cooking. I'm sure Penn could tell you there's a difference between making pancakes and making good pancakes.
Someone can be trained to score high on the IQ test - it doesn't make them smart - neither does the ability to make pancakes. The ability to acquire and then apply that knowledge at a high level, in a short period of time, does IMHO.
The point is, there's no excuse for numbers that bad, anywhere in the Country.
I suggest, at a minimum and without a broad background of in-depth experience with the topic(s), reading Howard Gardner's "Multiple Intelligences" and Jonathan Kozol's "Savage Inequalities" before offering up such concrete opinions on America's complexly diverse educational issues.
Richard :munchin
GratefulCitizen
05-05-2011, 19:33
Yes, it would make a difference.
Another issue is the emphasis on standardized tests. Schools do need to be held accountable - but the way standardized tests are used seems counterproductive. Teachers need to teach the worthwhile skills Gypsy mentions instead of teaching to the test. MOO, YMMV.
I always chuckle when attempts are made to improve everyone's standardized test scores (IQ included).
By definition, standardized tests are relative scoring.
For IQ (Weschler scale), average is defined as = 100.
One standard deviation is defined to be 15 points.
It is impossible to get everyone above 100 because improvements (or declines) change the definition of 100.
<shrug>
Half the people I know are below average. ;)
I suggest, at a minimum and without a broad background of in-depth experience with the topic(s), reading Howard Gardner's "Multiple Intelligences" and Jonathan Kozol's "Savage Inequalities" before offering up such concrete opinions on America's complexly diverse educational issues.
Richard :munchin
I suggest learning to read a menu, traffic citation and a prescription to start, but if you can get 'em to work their way up to that dry shit, have at it. :D
I always chuckle when attempts are made to improve everyone's standardized test scores (IQ included).
By definition, standardized tests are relative scoring.
For IQ (Weschler scale), average is defined as = 100.
One standard deviation is defined to be 15 points.
It is impossible to get everyone above 100 because improvements (or declines) change the definition of 100.
<shrug>
Half the people I know are below average. ;)
Exactly, by utilizing standard civilian mathematics.
Only when you complete the Advanced Mathematics Course for Military Officers, can you really grasp how 96% of the 2LTs in the army, can be in the top 2% performance-wise.
Well, that and lots and lots of good German beer. ;)
It was less clear the next day, but the night my CO explained it, it was perfectly clear. :D
<shrug>
Half the people I know are below average. ;)
No offense meant, but I suspect most of the people you know are well above average, some of them substantially so.
I'll go further. I suspect just about anyone reading this is above average and that most of those they want to associate with are likewise.
Jonathan Kozal “The Shame of the Nation: The Restoration of Apartheid Schooling in America”
How could this be?????????
They went to public school!!!!!!!!!!!
greenberetTFS
05-06-2011, 05:12
and the Red Wings suck too
I second RL's motion ..................;)
However I really liked Detroit 187,gonna really miss the show.........:(
Big Teddy :munchin
Being from Michigan, it truthfully does not suprise me that Detroit is so low in any category. As previously pointed out, it is "the will to learn." Most of the low income residents figure they can just bank on a factory job when they get done with school (or drop out). With the awesome economy that Detroit now has who wouldn't want to bank on getting a factory job? The problem also stems from public schools. Most of the teachers care about as much as the students taking less and less time caring about the education they are giving. Lastly the blame should really be shouldered by the parents. Parents should take and interest in their children's education, forcing their kids to have "a better life than I had."
I also resent the comment about the Red Wings no matter how much they are taking a beating from the Sharks :D There is still a chance for a come back....:rolleyes:
ObliqueApproach
05-06-2011, 05:25
From a strictly educational perspective, we'll leave hockey out of it, it would be interesting to know how New Orleans compares to Detroit.....although, you might have to go to Houston to find out since many of the "refugees" never went back!:confused:
greenberetTFS
05-06-2011, 05:53
Really doesn't surprise me at all. The Detroit school system is a shambles, and Southfield and Pontiac aren't any better. Pontiac is considered the slum of Oakland County. It's the "hole in the donut" surrounded by upscale communities.
N550G,
I'll bet you live in Bloomfield Hills...............;)
Big Teddy :munchin
Thereabouts, but Bloomfield Hills doesn't accept WASPS. :D
WTF is a WASP?
I'll google it...
"'WASP'-Someone who steps out of the shower to urinate."
IMO, it will always start and end with the parents. Illiteracy just isn't acceptable.
Amen.
........... Kids can't learn or be expected to learn when they're hungry ......................
Don't think so - never seen a hungry kid dump a full lunch tray.
Instead of trying to pin the blame on "one" thing maybe we should say it's the over riding culture. From the parents, the kids, the schools and the culture that overlays it all.
Kids like to be (somewhat) like their parents. Kids see what their parents do for a living. What does the bottom end of our society do for a living? What do the kids see?
They see what their parents (mom) does each day. They see you go to this office to get the EBT card, over there for WIC, down around the corner for rent aid, another building for utility aid. On and on, that's what they see. That is the life. The drug dealer driving the tricked out caddy never finished high school so why should they. If you're a girl just get knocked up and you can get a place of your own.
Who needs schooling to get ahead?
Don't think so - never seen a hungry kid dump a full lunch tray.
Instead of trying to pin the blame on "one" thing maybe we should say it's the over riding culture. From the parents, the kids, the schools and the culture that overlays it all.
Kids like to be (somewhat) like their parents. Kids see what their parents do for a living. What does the bottom end of our society do for a living? What do the kids see?
They see what their parents (mom) does each day. They see you go to this office to get the EBT card, over there for WIC, down around the corner for rent aid, another building for utility aid. On and on, that's what they see. That is the life. The drug dealer driving the tricked out caddy never finished high school so why should they. If you're a girl just get knocked up and you can get a place of your own.
Who needs schooling to get ahead?
It's the parent's choice to use WIC, EBT and other handout programs. Nobody's forcing it on 'em.
A young man needs a STRONG father/masculine role model. When you have a 25 years old sistah with 4 kids with 4 different,missing fathers in a closed community that glorify illiteracy, crime, sex and drugs well ... you get Detroit ... or North Montreal.
As long as kids are born without real fathers, this crime culture will never stop.
GratefulCitizen
05-06-2011, 11:59
The public school system is set up to ingrain zero-sum thinking.
-The grading system is effectively a zero-sum game.
-Sports are a zero-sum game.
-Standardized tests are a zero-sum game.
-The social dynamic is usually a zero-sum game.
-Zero-sum economics are being furthered through a liberal curriculum.
-Cooperation is penalized as "cheating".
People who are convinced that the world is zero-sum are easily manipulated.
Some will believe that a person who gets free food, health care, housing, and 99 weeks of work-free pay is "poor" just because someone else might have more.
Some still retain a work ethic.
But if they also retain zero-sum thinking, they'll get stuck on an economic treadmill feeding the tax machine (directly or indirectly).
If possible, use the school system as your children's tool.
Don't let the school system use your children as a tool.
The public school system is set up to ingrain zero-sum thinking.
-The grading system is effectively a zero-sum game.
-Sports are a zero-sum game.
-Standardized tests are a zero-sum game.
-The social dynamic is usually a zero-sum game.
-Zero-sum economics are being furthered through a liberal curriculum.
-Cooperation is penalized as "cheating".
People who are convinced that the world is zero-sum are easily manipulated.
Some will believe that a person who gets free food, health care, housing, and 99 weeks of work-free pay is "poor" just because someone else might have more.
Some still retain a work ethic.
But if they also retain zero-sum thinking, they'll get stuck on an economic treadmill feeding the tax machine (directly or indirectly).
If possible, use the school system as your children's tool.
Don't let the school system use your children as a tool.
It all adds up over time...
FWIW, the report referenced in the OP is available here (http://cbsdetroit.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/basicskillsreport_final.pdf).
"Nearly Half of Detroit Illiterate."
I'm surprised that the number is not higher.
In no small way it's an embarrassment, not only to our Nation, but to our collective conscience; that such remarks would example the attitudinal response found here.
Buffalobob
05-06-2011, 13:54
I spent the morning in a suburb of DC called Deanwood. Only 40% of the residents graduated from high school. It is extremely poor with an average income well below the poverty level. I go there twice a month and conduct surveys. Just a point or humor, in a thread a couple of months back about hospitals and guns, there was a policeman who was too cowardly to walk from his car in the hospital parking lot to the front door of the hospital without his gun, yet even though I am 63 years old, I walk this neighborhood with no gun. Interestingly enough, I have never seen a LE step out of his vehicle and walk down a block of this neighborhood. But I digress from the original subject of illiteracy. Neither of my grandfathers completed high school and both were functionally illiterate. One grandfather was a general contractor and my grandmother always prepared his cost estimates for bidding on a job. Very few of my neighbors growing up had a high school education but they could harness a mule and plant a crop and by the time I was old enough so could I. I suspect that living in a really poor community in a city is much like in growing up in Appalachia - its about survival. Don't know that as a fact being as I am not a sociologist nor anthropologist but it is my observation.
In no small way it's an embarrassment, not only to our Nation, but to our collective conscience; that such remarks would example the attitudinal response found here.
I think the embarrassment belongs to the parents, school system and city. But since they don't care I'm not going to care for them.
Private school - even if you have to work a little harder.
Pete, you are correct. Its all about access.
I think the embarrassment belongs to the parents, school system and city. But since they don't care I'm not going to care for them.
Private school - even if you have to work a little harder.
You got it, especially if between you and the student, school system want to make something out of them.
OTH, my children have been in public schools, here in Cumb Cty, and Clarksville, it works....ya gotta ride their ass, but ya gettin'....what ya put in..
I guess some folks don't like ridin'
GratefulCitizen
05-06-2011, 14:13
I think the embarrassment belongs to the parents, school system and city. But since they don't care I'm not going to care for them.
Private school - even if you have to work a little harder.
Spot on.
My maternal grandmother raised 4 kids in poverty as a single mother and still put them through private school.
Both girls were valedictorians, all 4 went on to earn advanced degrees.
IIRC, you are familiar with the setting.
Cresco, Iowa in the '50s and '60s.
IMO it's all about attitude. Everybody's got access to everything and have had for decades.
You can't tell me inner city kids don't think it's not cool to be educated; I am educated, and I know better.
And don't intimate that it's a symptom of racial prejudice for me to bitch about it. I call it as I fucking see it, and I don't give a fuck what color a stupid son of a bitch is, he's still a stupid SOB. Hell, the dumbest MF in "8-Mile" was white, right?
The "victim" mentality is what holds these Detroit denizens and others in the same shithole down, not the white man.
Pete, you are correct. Its all about access.
Access is everywhere - but you have to get off your ass and look/work for it.
"Where there is a will there is a way" is a saying long forgotten in some parts of this country.
FWIW, one can find state by state and county by county literacy data from 1992 and 2003 here (http://nces.ed.gov/naal/estimates/StateEstimates.aspx).
Part of of a project I am working on that concerns access to resources. Based on Kozel observations and Seligman hypnosis of flourishing.
Verb Flourish
flourished, past participle; flourished, past tense; flourishes, 3rd person singular present; flourishing, present participle
(of a person, animal, or other living organism) Grow or develop in a healthy or vigorous way, esp. as the result of a particularly favorable environment - wild plants flourish on the banks of the lake
Environmental, Educational and Social Inequality as Exclusionary factors to Flourishing
Of all the readily accessible definitions available via the internet, the one that is italicized in bold print above examples my understanding of the verb flourishing best. As it references “living organism”, for Homo Sapiens - the Individual. Implying, that to be “flourishing” one must be intricately evolving to “Grow or develop in a healthy or vigorous way, especially, as the result of a particularly favorable environment”.
The example offered presupposes that “wild Plants which flourish on the banks of the lake” are inherently understood by the reader as to what this entails: “the result of a particularly favorable environment”.
It requires the understanding of universal relationships that exists simultaneously in the constructs of bio-diversity. A synthesis where interdependencies, co-dependency, organism’s composition are an evolving process that changes in order to thrive? A factoid/theoretical model that most if not all would subscribe to as accurate.
And though I agree with the illustration offered, a question arise as to who has accessibility to incorporate the concept of “flourishing” into life? Under what conditions is it possible to “flourish”, if one is not doing so? When are the psychological dynamics that precondition the physical environment actualized so that one can indeed flourish? How are the preconditioned dynamics constructed, and by whom?
It is my contention that conceptually the “comprehensive” idea to “flourish” or “flourishing” for the individual is predicated on a number of well meaning assumptions. The first of which is economic, follow by environment, then by process and meaning, and finally, the idea of “flourishing” being incorporation into the cultural psychology of a society.
Martin Seligman writes in the preface of his book what you can change and what you can’t, “that most personality traits are highly heritable”. (1) Commenting further, Seligman states that though personality traits can be viewed and addressed the results and the window of opportunity are limited.
In essence, Seligman suggest a behaviorist approach to managing ones dilemmas, stating that one needs to be “tough-minded”, pragmatic and that his specific recommendations will not be curative, symptoms will return”. (1) Accompanying that comment he adds a surprise, “an old fashion virtue” to his suggested interventions: the “Courage” to adapt.
I would like to comment on this American 18th - 20th century concept of “toughness” masquerading as courage. You can almost hear Seligman’s depression era parents transferring a much admired and needed cultural truth to their son, of how, and most certainly, he would be required at times to “tough it out”!
How revolutionary! In an age where we can trace the myocardial gene of our ancient ancestors back to Sub-Sahara Africa, incorporate the same gene in therapies for chronic myocardial ischemia; that a lost socialization process should so powerfully surface; challenging several recent generations on their idea of navigating life with the social ideology of every ones a winner. That being breast feed and burped until thirty years of age is Ok?
I must admit to a guilty pleasure. It’s so refreshing to see such an antiquated and common sense idea in the 21st century join with biological psychiatry as it relates to the “flourishing” individual, it takes determination, read as “toughness” to want to change the circumstance of one’s life.
That said, there are barriers to envisioning a self made future. As mentioned above the first obstacle is the social economic condition and all that it entails. In that sense “flourishing” is arguably related to privilege, and privilege affords the ability to choose, which is an undeniable luxury. And if choice is luxury, then there are exclusionary and limiting factors to the concept of “Flourishing”
Limited to the few, elitism is then a precondition of the concept to “flourish”, in that choice is the luxury of weighing options and consequences, a circumstance indicative of stable social economic conditions, “Flourishing” then is elitist? I am not so sure. A stable economic condition does not necessarily imply the precondition be such as to eliminate financial pressure as a factor prohibiting the ability to “flourish”.
What a stable socio-economic condition presumes is reliable environmental conditions, regardless of strata. Settled environmental circumstances fix in place the social atmosphere necessary to explore balanced alternatives that counterbalances the exclusiveness of an elitists’ charge.
Additionally, the psychological dynamics that precondition the physical environment are actualized in the previous generation’s socialization process. Your experience is shaped by the psychological environment as much as it is by the physical and this is the overriding preconditioned imperative in order to “flourish”.
In essence, if the physical environment is stable, regardless of strata, then there is a direct correlation to the psychological environment being equally developed. It would also be true if one or the other was unstable.
For instance, one destructive psychological environment that would prevent the idea of “flourishing” is acutely exampled by Jonathan Kozal. Who writes in his seminal work “The Shame of the Nation: The Restoration of Apartheid Schooling in America”, (1) that the root cause of “structural racism” is de facto residential segregation along economic and color lines. His explanation is enhanced by personal testimony and his forty year career as a dedicated teacher in inner-city schools.
Kozal’s interest in social justice and policy developed through his critical observation of those schools. Thus, Kozal combines his intellectual thinking with real world experience into an authoritative body of work on educational racism in America. “The Shame of the Nation” is Kozal’s definitive statement of intellectual and spiritual survival in a heartless landscape divided by race, education and resources.
A critical reading of “The Shame of the Nation” is heart wrenching; replete with examples of spiritual deprivation and medieval discipline. Image the concept of “flourishing” in a environment where discipline is delivered with “rattan whips dipped in vinegar” to the hands and backsides of young black school children, as one of many method of cruelty employed to induce conformity.
Kozal describes an educational system which achieves an emotional and progressive drowning of expectation through over-crowded classrooms and deteriorating environments that in the end reduce the young bright and limitless student to a problem. Problems, that are best addressed, by releasing the student “from real educational instruction to being given sewing lesson”, (3) causes one to walk a thin line between insurrectionist first and mutinous anarchist second.
Where is it possible to “Flourish” if the psychological landscape is an endless series of compulsion and force that is used to intimidate and oppress. The constraints of such an environment would be all encompassing.
Whether this destructive social corrosion is the result of poverty – described as an economically based struggle outline by Marx’s in the “The Communist Manifesto”, his thesis concerning labor and the distribution of wealth , or an issue of educational status related to poverty as defined by Weber, or a collection of multi-tiered race issues according to Durkheim is debatable.
Yet, contrast these hope-filled philosophies above to the heartlessness of Marshall’s theory of social rights, which centers on the evolution of group rights trickling down through the state to the individual. As they expand Marshall dryly observes: “there are winners and losers”. (3)
As unacceptable as Marshall’s philosophy of inequality is, Kozal’s work points out something far more disturbing: children in communities affected by poverty have become systematically “segregated” into an underclass by the progressive degradation of Public Education in those communities.
Decades of “dummying down” the pedagogy has resulted in de facto segregation of economically disadvantaged school districts, closely resembling the pre-1952 school districts established under legislated segregation and addressed by the SCOTUS historic decision: Brown vs. the Board of Ed. Topeka Ks. 1954 (4)
In this regard, Marshall frames democratic social structure, by quoting “Patrick Colquhoun’s inclusive explanation of poverty and society that states: “without a large proportion of poverty there could be no riches, since riches are the offspring of labor and labor can only result from poverty. (3)
Therefore, winners and losers are the natural by-product of government, usually democratic, as poverty is the unspoken essential in Colquhoun’s explanation of a successful democratic economic concept. Thus, society is divided along economic lines by the socio-political elites maintaining a status quo of a two-tiered educational system, whose lower-class arm is intentionally designed to fail its students.
My question of accessibility to incorporate the concept of “flourishing” and under what conditions is it possible to “flourish”, if one is not doing so, is root based in the socio-economic and educational organization within society.
If societal conditions produce a two-tiered educational system, whose lower-class arm is intentionally designed to fail its students is in fact true; then the psychological dynamics that precondition the physical environment are the decisive elements which organize the access to education, and to the possibility of flourishing. But, the issue remains as to how are those preconditioned dynamics constructed, and by whom?
GratefulCitizen
05-06-2011, 14:39
Why is it that some still overcome?
Have one close friend who is black, grew up in a racist area of Kentucky, the youngest of 10 kids, divorced parents, didn't have indoor plumbing until age 14, etc.
He still overcame and is now a very successful software engineer with an abundance of wealth.
He lived cheap and overcame (didn't even get a driver's license unti age 23).
Have another close friend who is Navajo, grew up in poverty, English as a second language, didn't have running water or electricity at home, etc.
He studied while in school, enlisted once out, worked multiple jobs once back in the civilian world, pursued his education and put in his time at UPS until getting his full-time job.
He lived cheap, overcame, is quite well-off now and still puts in 60 hr work weeks.
The critical traits for both men were discipline and courage.
There is no shortage of opportunity in this country.
Just because some have better opportunities doesn't mean others lack opportunity.
Discipline and courage overcome.
The model of education according to Karen and Dougherty’s paper “Necessary but Not Sufficient: Higher Education as a Strategy of Social Mobility” points to the politics of access. They “see higher education as a scarce and valuable resource, the prize in a struggle among competing groups” based on the illusion of eventual attainment of equality, in spite of an economic system that is inherently inequitable, as “dominant and subordinate groups, state officials, and higher education officials, all involved in negotiating the color and class lines in higher education, often under the guise of meritocracy.”(5)
“The discourse of higher education policy as a process of democratization
involving public officials responding to popular demand captures an
important part of the politics of access in the United States. But it
also misses a lot. For one, the governmental response not infrequently has
been motivated less by commitment to equality than to a desire to maintain
political control in a period of popular mobilization. Just as in the 1930s,
when large segments of the population were questioning the legitimacy of
the promise of equal opportunity, the claims on the state made by subordinate
groups in the 1960s led to a similar expansion of universalistic social programs
as a means of containing social conflict. (Piven & Cloward, 1977).
In addition, the discourse of higher education policy as democratization misses
the fact that college expansion has been fueled as well by non-democratic desires
and that there have been powerful efforts to blunt the democratizing thrust of higher education expansion”.(6)
In order to address the “Resistance”, or access as outlined by Karen and Dougherty, the democratization thesis holds two related processes that undermine the tendencies toward the democratization of “higher education and the color line”. “The first tendency is structural; it is part and parcel of our system of inequality. The second involves efforts by elites to counterbalance the successes of subordinate groups by decreasing access to higher education”.
The first tendency is that, almost naturally, those already advantaged by family background secure other advantages as well, including advanced education and more attractive jobs. The hope would be that employment decisions would overcome this by hiring on the basis of skill requirements and ability, regardless of background. But, in fact, education requirements for specific jobs are often only vaguely related to skills.
The most highly remunerated jobs often require extensive education not because of the highly technical nature of the positions; after all, many skills can be and are learned on the job. Instead, high-status jobs have high educational requirements because employers are looking for people well socialized into the dominant culture, and elite colleges and universities provide that. (3)
The socioeconomic disparity between groups is maintained through a process of structural meritocracy. Whereby, the best and the brightest in a market base capitalistic economy automatically rise to the top. While those with the least social capital mobility, are relegated to service based strata access only.
So even as higher education opens its doors to the previously excluded, the reproduction of class and racial inequality is maintained (Bourdieu, 1977; Collins, 1979). Beyond its “normal” workings, the system of inequality is augmented by specific instances of counter-mobilization against democratizing efforts. (3)
Examples of counter-efforts are best dramatized in the following legislation designed to forgo any discussion of race-based equal opportunity related to affirmative action debates.
In Hopwood v. Texas, 78 F.3d 932 (5th Cir. 1996), the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals holds that the University of Texas Law School's affirmative action program violates equal protection. It argues that Justice Powell's opinion in Bakke is no longer controlling precedent and that the University may not legally takes race into account at all in admissions. In response to the Court decision, the Texas State legislature passes a bill providing that the top 10% of each high school graduating class will automatically be admitted to the Texas public university system. (4)
In California voters pass the California Civil Rights Initiative, or Proposition 209, prohibiting state affirmative action programs. In response to a dramatic decline in minority student enrollment in the California schools, the legislature adopts a 4% solution plan to which the top 4% of every high school graduating class will be admitted to the California public university system beginning in 2001. (6)
In this regard, policy promotes admission for any individual who meets the requirement in of top class percentiles. In this way, schools attract only students that achieve and compete at the highest level of their school, however unequal, regardless of race, sex, and other defining categories. But, since schools are unequal due to de facto residential segregation, economically and cultural based that results in segregated economically disadvantaged school districts; those admitted from disadvantage school districts are unprepared to compete at the new level.
Thus, the new “meritocracy” legislation combine with educational funding as block grants, rather than earmarked educational grants, designed to present the illusion of inclusiveness, actually function as structural amendments reinforcing racism and the status quo. Confirming Karen and Dougherty’s assertions that; “socioeconomic disparity between groups is maintained through a process of structural meritocracy”. (5)
Denial of educational opportunity structured by legislation undermines the community and as the following attest; widens the gap between rich and poor, black and white. The median income of “black households is: $22,393; the median income of Latino households is: $22,860; and the median income of white households is: $35,766. Whereas 26.4% of black families and 27% of Latino families fall below the poverty line, only 8.5% of white families do” (6)
The Department of Education statistics state that in the cities of “East St. Louis, Illinois and Compton, California, one-hundred per cent of the students in their public school systems are minorities. Ninety-six percent of public school students in Washington, D.C. and Camden, New Jersey are minorities, along with 94% in Hartford, Connecticut and New Orleans, 93% in Los Angeles, Oakland, Atlanta, and Paterson, New Jersey, and 83% in the New York City public school system”. (6)
Based on this available information, one would have to agree that the quality of education in this nation is unequal along racial lines; and, that this racial inequality has even been structurally secured, through affirmative action suits that have undermined the intent of “Brown”, even to the extent that one might claim that “Brown vs. the Board of Education” has been reversed returning America to its de jure segregated past of Plessy v. Ferguson.
Thus confirming the concept of “Flourishing” as limited to the few, who’s educational and familial preconditioning prepares them to explore concepts such as “flourishing”, as an innate understanding within their grasp. For choice is a luxury of weighing options and consequences, a circumstance indicative of both a stable social setting and, but not necessarily a stable economic conditions. “Flourishing” then, from this limited view is elitist in its accessibility and structure.
BIBLIOGRAPHY
(1) Martin E. P. Seligman, What you can Change and What you can’t Vintage Books, New York (2007)
(2) Jonathan Kozal’s “The Shame of the Nation” The Restoration of Apartheid Schooling in America, Crown Publishers, New York (2005)
(3) Structural Racism and Rebuilding New Orleans, by Maya Wiley Poverty & Race • Vol.15, No. 6 • 17
(4) Marshall, T. H. Citizenship and social class and other essays, Cambridge 1950
(5) SCOTUS
(6) David Karen and Kevin J. Dougherty, Higher Education and the Color Line, Harvard Education Press books Harvard Graduate School of Education | Harvard University
Access, attitude, aptitude, environment, among other things...I suspect all play a role in one's life.
Detroit's manufacturing environment has been steadily deteriorating since about the mid-1960's.
Detroit was once a manufacturing capital of the world. That has long since been but a distant memory.
I believe that more than half of Detroit's population (measured from it's heyday) has fled - those that can have fled.
The fact that I am surprised that only half of Detroit is functionally illiterate is not meant as snark - it is merely my objective observation of the manifest deterioration that Detroit has endured - for a variety of reasons.
In fact, I am embarrassed, too. Embarrassed for the decades of illustrious "leaders" of the city Detroit (Dave Bing excepted for the moment) - but I am not embarrassed by candor that openly suggests that it could be worse. I was a bit surprised that it took so long.
Living in Detroit is a tough life - not unlike many lives lived in this world or in this country.
The Detroit parents, Detroit political leadership, Detroit school systems and the Detroit constituents that constitute the 47% should be embarrassed - I hope they are embarrassed enough to fix it.
The model of education according to Karen and Dougherty’s paper “Necessary but Not Sufficient: Higher Education as a Strategy of Social Mobility” points to the politics of access. They “see higher education as a scarce and valuable resource, the prize in a struggle among competing groups” based on the illusion of eventual attainment of equality, in spite of an economic system that is inherently inequitable, as “dominant and subordinate groups, state officials, and higher education officials, all involved in negotiating the color and class lines in higher education, often under the guise of meritocracy.”(5)
“The discourse of higher education policy as a process of democratization
involving public officials responding to popular demand captures an
important part of the politics of access in the United States. But it
also misses a lot. For one, the governmental response not infrequently has
been motivated less by commitment to equality than to a desire to maintain
political control in a period of popular mobilization. Just as in the 1930s,
when large segments of the population were questioning the legitimacy of
the promise of equal opportunity, the claims on the state made by subordinate
groups in the 1960s led to a similar expansion of universalistic social programs
as a means of containing social conflict. (Piven & Cloward, 1977).
In addition, the discourse of higher education policy as democratization misses
the fact that college expansion has been fueled as well by non-democratic desires
and that there have been powerful efforts to blunt the democratizing thrust of higher education expansion”.(6)
In order to address the “Resistance”, or access as outlined by Karen and Dougherty, the democratization thesis holds two related processes that undermine the tendencies toward the democratization of “higher education and the color line”. “The first tendency is structural; it is part and parcel of our system of inequality. The second involves efforts by elites to counterbalance the successes of subordinate groups by decreasing access to higher education”.
The first tendency is that, almost naturally, those already advantaged by family background secure other advantages as well, including advanced education and more attractive jobs. The hope would be that employment decisions would overcome this by hiring on the basis of skill requirements and ability, regardless of background. But, in fact, education requirements for specific jobs are often only vaguely related to skills.
The most highly remunerated jobs often require extensive education not because of the highly technical nature of the positions; after all, many skills can be and are learned on the job. Instead, high-status jobs have high educational requirements because employers are looking for people well socialized into the dominant culture, and elite colleges and universities provide that. (3)
The socioeconomic disparity between groups is maintained through a process of structural meritocracy. Whereby, the best and the brightest in a market base capitalistic economy automatically rise to the top. While those with the least social capital mobility, are relegated to service based strata access only.
So even as higher education opens its doors to the previously excluded, the reproduction of class and racial inequality is maintained (Bourdieu, 1977; Collins, 1979). Beyond its “normal” workings, the system of inequality is augmented by specific instances of counter-mobilization against democratizing efforts. (3)
Examples of counter-efforts are best dramatized in the following legislation designed to forgo any discussion of race-based equal opportunity related to affirmative action debates.
In Hopwood v. Texas, 78 F.3d 932 (5th Cir. 1996), the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals holds that the University of Texas Law School's affirmative action program violates equal protection. It argues that Justice Powell's opinion in Bakke is no longer controlling precedent and that the University may not legally takes race into account at all in admissions. In response to the Court decision, the Texas State legislature passes a bill providing that the top 10% of each high school graduating class will automatically be admitted to the Texas public university system. (4)
In California voters pass the California Civil Rights Initiative, or Proposition 209, prohibiting state affirmative action programs. In response to a dramatic decline in minority student enrollment in the California schools, the legislature adopts a 4% solution plan to which the top 4% of every high school graduating class will be admitted to the California public university system beginning in 2001. (6)
In this regard, policy promotes admission for any individual who meets the requirement in of top class percentiles. In this way, schools attract only students that achieve and compete at the highest level of their school, however unequal, regardless of race, sex, and other defining categories. But, since schools are unequal due to de facto residential segregation, economically and cultural based that results in segregated economically disadvantaged school districts; those admitted from disadvantage school districts are unprepared to compete at the new level.
Thus, the new “meritocracy” legislation combine with educational funding as block grants, rather than earmarked educational grants, designed to present the illusion of inclusiveness, actually function as structural amendments reinforcing racism and the status quo. Confirming Karen and Dougherty’s assertions that; “socioeconomic disparity between groups is maintained through a process of structural meritocracy”. (5)
Denial of educational opportunity structured by legislation undermines the community and as the following attest; widens the gap between rich and poor, black and white. The median income of “black households is: $22,393; the median income of Latino households is: $22,860; and the median income of white households is: $35,766. Whereas 26.4% of black families and 27% of Latino families fall below the poverty line, only 8.5% of white families do” (6)
The Department of Education statistics state that in the cities of “East St. Louis, Illinois and Compton, California, one-hundred per cent of the students in their public school systems are minorities. Ninety-six percent of public school students in Washington, D.C. and Camden, New Jersey are minorities, along with 94% in Hartford, Connecticut and New Orleans, 93% in Los Angeles, Oakland, Atlanta, and Paterson, New Jersey, and 83% in the New York City public school system”. (6)
Based on this available information, one would have to agree that the quality of education in this nation is unequal along racial lines; and, that this racial inequality has even been structurally secured, through affirmative action suits that have undermined the intent of “Brown”, even to the extent that one might claim that “Brown vs. the Board of Education” has been reversed returning America to its de jure segregated past of Plessy v. Ferguson.
Thus confirming the concept of “Flourishing” as limited to the few, who’s educational and familial preconditioning prepares them to explore concepts such as “flourishing”, as an innate understanding within their grasp. For choice is a luxury of weighing options and consequences, a circumstance indicative of both a stable social setting and, but not necessarily a stable economic conditions. “Flourishing” then, from this limited view is elitist in its accessibility and structure.
BIBLIOGRAPHY
(1) Martin E. P. Seligman, What you can Change and What you can’t Vintage Books, New York (2007)
(2) Jonathan Kozal’s “The Shame of the Nation” The Restoration of Apartheid Schooling in America, Crown Publishers, New York (2005)
(3) Structural Racism and Rebuilding New Orleans, by Maya Wiley Poverty & Race • Vol.15, No. 6 • 17
(4) Marshall, T. H. Citizenship and social class and other essays, Cambridge 1950
(5) SCOTUS
(6) David Karen and Kevin J. Dougherty, Higher Education and the Color Line, Harvard Education Press books Harvard Graduate School of Education | Harvard University
"The second involves efforts by elites to counterbalance the successes of subordinate groups by decreasing access to higher education”. "
"...widens the gap between rich and poor, black and white. The median income of “black households is: $22,393; the median income of Latino households is: $22,860; and the median income of white households is: $35,766. Whereas 26.4% of black families and 27% of Latino families fall below the poverty line, only 8.5% of white families do” "
Typical bullshit liberal study.
If elites are trying to counterbalance the successes of subordinate groups by decreasing access to higher education, how the fuck did Obama get a degree from Harvard? Trust me, if he could do it, anybody could.
And, whose fault is it that blacks and Latinos make less money? How much did Clarence Thomas make last year? Bill Cosby? LL CoolJ? Lopez?
Race doesn't have a damn thing to do with making money or getting a college degree unless you're a liberal whiner, harping on the victim/entitlement bullshit.
Mr Furious
05-06-2011, 14:57
IMO it's all about attitude. Everybody's got access to everything and have had for decades.
You can't tell me inner city kids don't think it's not cool to be educated; I am educated, and I know better.
And don't itimate that it's a symptom of racial prejudice for me to bitch about it. I call it as I fucking see it, and I don't give a fuck what color a stupid son of a bitch is, he's still a stupid SOB. Hell, the dumbest MF in "8-Mile" was white, right?
The "victim" mentality is what holds these Detroit denizens and others in the same shithole down, not the white man.
Absolutely agree. For some, TV and being “street” are more important than books. Hamtramck gets hit by a tornado a little over a decade ago, and the majority of folks didn’t want to help, they wanted to LOOT! The numbers haven’t skewed overnight for Detroit proper. The feeling you get when you arrive on the other side of the Ambassador Bridge is the same now as it was ten or fifteen years ago. Head from Windsor into Detroit and you ask yourself, Lord what have I done…make sure that round is chambered. It would be the same feeling if that bridge extended from downtown out to 12-Mile, and you suddenly changed landscapes from the start of the suburbs. It’s not just Detroit, it is inner-city America. Ride the Metrolink from the arch over to East St Louis…lock and load. We can keep going. Faith can move mountains, but bring a shovel.
Kozal’s interest in social justice and policy...
A critical reading of “The Shame of the Nation” is heart wrenching; replete with examples of spiritual deprivation and medieval discipline.
Where is it possible to “Flourish” if the psychological landscape is an endless series of compulsion and force that is used to intimidate and oppress. The constraints of such an environment would be all encompassing.
Whether this destructive social corrosion is the result of poverty – described as an economically based struggle outline by Marx’s in the “The Communist Manifesto”, his thesis concerning labor and the distribution of wealth , or an issue of educational status related to poverty as defined by Weber, or a collection of multi-tiered race issues according to Durkheim is debatable.
Yet, contrast these hope-filled philosophies above...
Social justice, Karl Marx and Max Weber...hope filled philosophies all... I think I know where the author of this material is coming from...
Its all about access.There's a prep school in New England that has been around for about two and a quarter centuries. While known by some because of its alumni, some of its dirty laundry, and one of Michael Jackson's better songs/videos, it is best known for its demanding standards (class six days a week, dress code, expulsion for three unexcused absences, "Hell Week") and the opportunities it provides its students.
In regards to the latter, scuttlebutt had it that during the 'good ole days' (i.e. before girls were admitted), seniors would pick which of four schools they'd attend for college--Yale, Harvard, Princeton, and, if memory serves, Dartmouth. They didn't apply. They told admissions officers from those schools when they came to visit. (If one were to look at the yearbooks over a span of years in the '20s, '40s, '30s, and '50s, one would see the graduating class being equally dispersed to these four schools.)
Later, students had to go through the process of taking standardized tests, filling out applications, getting letters of recommendation, and doing the interviews, just like everyone else. (Everyone else must have had those special marks on the top right corner of their applications.)
Even so, it was commonly held that seniors in good standing--by virtue of their own hard work and the access granted by attending this school--were going to get into one of their top choices--early admission to Yale or to Harvard (Radcliffe for the ladies), Princeton, and MIT. Or, at worst, they would have to settle for a second choice (like Brown, Columbia, or Cal Tech).
This sensibility even applied to students who left that school early for one reason or another. One senior, who was sent home for a serious infraction (drinking) was apparently unconcerned about his prospects for getting into Stanford. Another student, who left halfway through his upper-middle year, only applied to two schools -- his 'back up' was, at that time, the top public university in the country. Although prone to an alarming amount of hand wringing, this student never really doubted he'd get into both schools. And he did. Or so I heard.
The point here is that students who attend these and other schools and bust their backs to earn good grades do so in no small part because they have faith in a system that invests faith (and an incredible amount of money) in them. Who is to say how things would turn out if that faith were absent on either side of the equation?
In education, with all other factors being equal, inequality of opportunity and access have always been issues here - as well as elsewhere - for many reasons. To not recognize the importance of that concept and deny its existence is an on-going exacerbation of the problem(s) and our continuing failure to correct them.
I suggest reading "The Big Test: The Secret History of the American Meritocracy" by Nicholas Lemann to better understand the point Sigaba was just trying to make.
Richard
Team Sergeant
05-06-2011, 16:36
WTF is a WASP?
I'll google it...
"'WASP'-Someone who steps out of the shower to urinate."
I was sitting here quietly reading and eating my 'sandmich' when I read this post, I was then choking on my sandmich.
Dusty, you are in the wrong line of work.;)
In education, with all other factors being equal, inequality of opportunity and access have always been issues here.........
Once again I call BS.
The Libs created the public school mess we find ourselves mired in today. It's their baby. They birthed the monster out of what was there in the 60's and have been floggin' it down the road every since.
All the group hug everybody's equal - equal outcome crap allowed this crap to grow. Add in the great society that destroyed inner city families and things have been set in stone.
Class size? My first school I went to had 1 teacher for the first and second grade. The teacher gave a lesson to one class, then a work problem, walked around to the other size of the classroom to work with the second class. So now with "better teachers" class size is a problem?
Maybe if everyone stopped bending over and kissing little Johnnie's ass he'd be forced to learn something.
Last I heard the public library had computers and internet access. So the kids do have access if they need it - well, if the libraries would kick the porn viewers off.
Then again if mom gave up her beer and smokes she could purchase a second hand computer. Around here people donate old used computers to the Bicycle Man and his shop cleans them up and give them out with the Bikes at Christmas.
Again it becomes "Sit on your ass and you ain't gonna' get anywhere."
Edited to add - Yes I know the background of public education was to produce the perfect little factory worker - but the libs took the ball and ran with it in the 60's.
Oh man, when did professionalsoldiers.com turn into my Diversity in Education grad school seminar?? :-P
What is your perception/judgement that we are myopic in our view of life?
Mr Furious
05-06-2011, 18:44
First off, for those devoted to pedagogy I salute you. It is a noble and often underappreciated profession. To say that access is the driving force would be erroneous. Wouldn’t the origin of disparity be a bit more fundamental? It extends well beyond access and education; not to minimize the opportunities and influence that both provide. I believe the issues are rooted culturally and fundamentally. Our society rewards entrepreneurial spirit and drive. Even if everything was created equal you will still have those that are driven to overachieve, those that are complacent, and those with very little drive if any at all. I get the Jackson message to a point…I think the whole basis of that song and the true story behind it also provides a very good example of exactly what we are discussing by cultural influences. The crowd shunning (and in real life killing) the one who desires to differentiate himself from the cultural norm. I’ve seen a lot of faith and good will handed out by FEMA after a storm. Some did good with it, some not so much. The not so much were usually the ones that asked for more and wanted mother government to take care of them. Not just our country either. We gave a lot of faith ($B) to Haiti over the years and in the end, it’s still Haiti asking for a handout. It’s fundamental and cultural. You can get yourself up and jump off the merry-go-round, or continue being dizzy. We all have choices.
Sparty On
05-07-2011, 00:20
I just joined, but this thread caught my eye.
Respectfully, some of you know not what you speak of when it comes to Detroit. If you'd like some cultural/political/social/geographic insight, let me know. Otherwise, I'll keep reading in amusement.
.... If you'd like some cultural/political/social/geographic insight, let me know. Otherwise, I'll keep reading in amusement.
This is a forum where people converse back and forth on issues that interest them. Cultural, political, social and geographic information can be found in many on line sources in cold facts and figures. There are many threads about here about Detroit on this board. I think the last was about the white flight that was racist while the black upper and middle class flight was not.
If you don't wish to participate then don't throw out a snarky post and sit back. Just keep your fingers off the keyboard to begin with.
I just joined, but this thread caught my eye.
Respectfully, some of you know not what you speak of when it comes to Detroit. If you'd like some cultural/political/social/geographic insight, let me know. Otherwise, I'll keep reading in amusement.
Nah, why don't you just keep the fuck out of it until you learn how to properly crack wise with 2 posts under your belt.
greenberetTFS
05-07-2011, 05:21
Nah, why don't you just keep the fuck out of it until you learn how to properly crack wise with 2 posts under your belt.
I concur..............:mad:
Big Teddy :munchin
The reported Detroit literacy numbers are merely identifying folks who cannot read and write - not reporting poor SAT scores for Detroit nor reporting that some folks from Detroit are having difficulty being admitted to an Ivy League school. No, these folks in Detroit can’t even read the directions to get to the room where the SAT test is being proctored. This lack of basic skills is indefensible.
Lemann’s book: The Big Test: The Secret History of the American Meritocracy (I just read a number of book reviews and numerous interviews that Lemann gave about the book) basically derides the SAT test and, among other things, suggests that if one comes from privilege and one’s family has money and connections then generally one might have a leg up in school and in life - profound - well, he did go to Harvard.
My life experience suggests that all things being equal…and IME all things are RARELY equal…that hard work and determination will get you ahead in life. That is the story that I would share with the kids in Detroit - not that the SAT test is biased against them and not that they might not get into Harvard or become an investment banker.
F@#k the SAT test biases.
F@#k the world’s biases - but work hard, do your homework and keep yourself fit - things will sort themselves out. I've seen it.
If I ever started talking like that (insert high pitched nasal whine) "I don't have the same access" (insert whatever access you wish here) to my family, I would have caught a backhander.
I can hear the simultaneous disgust of my great grandfather, my grandfather, and my father…speaking in unison to me...all due respect...ACCESS THIS...get back to work. For this family of immigrants literacy was not an option.
In education, with all other factors being equal, inequality of opportunity and access have always been issues here - as well as elsewhere - for many reasons. To not recognize the importance of that concept and deny its existence is an on-going exacerbation of the problem(s) and our continuing failure to correct them.
Once again I call BS.
Interesting. :confused:
To say that access is the driving force would be erroneous.
I didn't say it was - I said it was and continues to be an (an = a = one) important issue in the matter under discussion, here in America as well as elsewhere in the world, and that to ignore or deny it hinders efforts to minimize its very real effects.
Last I heard the public library had computers and internet access. So the kids do have access if they need it -
Sounds good, but all libraries are neither equal nor so readily available, either - especially in recent times when such services are some of the first being cut from community budgets. I have two libraries within 2 miles in two different directions of where I live whose services have been cut from 7 to 5 days per week with less staffing and shorter hours (5 hours per day and no evenings any more), and whose available computers when I stop by are being used almost exclusively by adults - not viewing 'porn' but doing job searches, preparing letters and resumes, contacting potential employers, etc. The high schools are more than a mile away, the students get out at 1600 and the libraries close at 1700. The high school library closes at 1630. And I live in an area of the city which is the polar opposite of where I used to teach "down in the Grove" (much like the urban school portrayed in the "Blackboard Jungle" and described in the OpEd piece which began this thread) where such access has always been and remains much less limited. I've visited a couple of the libraries in that area and was appalled at their condition, as well as both the quantity and quality of materials available - which are much less than where I live.
Do we really have the time and energy to again delve into all the associated issues which create a 'perfect storm' of inequality in education such as pre and postnatal care, nutrition and its effects on childhood development, access to even simple developmental educational environments and materials, familial and community cultural norms, individual ability and initiative, safety, school and teacher quality, support services, etc. The literature on all that is voluminous and can be as confusing as it is enlightening.
..."The Big Test: The Secret History of the American Meritocracy" by Nicholas Lemann...
People might want to understand why and how the SAT - which we, as a society, place so much value on today as an indicator of college preparedness - came into being and the perception of educational meritocracy has evolved since; no liberal BS about it at all and it is an interesting read which, in today's clamor for educational quantification, I would think might be of interest to everyone.
Richard
1stindoor
05-07-2011, 10:13
I just joined, .....
But you already feel comfortable enough around us to throw in your .02 cents. This should prove interesting. Especially with your tone. I suggest you put your foot back into your mouth, take a step back and regroup.
With regard to access...
I really do think it's more about motivation than access. Here's why - one assignment I give is to write a 500 word essay. A few are excellent, most are adequate, and some are miserable failures (mf).
What qualifies an essay as a mf? The author (scribbler?) does not use paragraphs, does not spell correctly, does not use correct grammar, and does not communicate effectively.
And yet, free tutoring is available 7 days per week, at least 12 hours per day. The student can get free lessons, help with their assignments, and so forth. They do not bother to do so.
Keep in mind - they (or someone) has paid their tuition. They cannot write effectively. They have a free resource available to them. They do not use that resource.
So....granted, the residents of Detroit are not in higher education. Granted, library resources may be strained. Computers may not be as available as they might be. All of that said, determination can win the day. And until I see our writing center filled to capacity with a waiting line, it will be hard to convince me that anything other than a lack of desire prevents anyone from transitioning to literacy.
GratefulCitizen
05-07-2011, 19:12
If the private sector is inclined to address the problem, great.
I applaud their efforts and might even contribute should they prove effective.
If "we" means more government intervention and spending...
Education should be left for each of the states to decide for themselves.
Federal intervention leads to a "Harrison Bergeron" solution.
If the private sector is inclined to address the problem, great.
I applaud their efforts and might even contribute should they prove effective.
If "we" means more government intervention and spending...
Education should be left for each of the states to decide for themselves.
Federal intervention leads to a "Harrison Bergeron" solution.
Roger that.
Government intervention is the root of the problem.
".......Even civil rights leaders profile. “There is nothing more painful for me at this stage in my life,” Jesse Jackson said several years ago, “than to walk down the street and hear footsteps and start thinking about robbery—and then look around and see somebody white and feel relieved.” Jackson now says his quotation was “taken out of context.” The context, he said, is that violence is the inevitable byproduct of poor education and health care. But no amount of “context” matters when you fear that you are about to be mugged........."
From Goldbloom.
".......Even civil rights leaders profile. “There is nothing more painful for me at this stage in my life,” Jesse Jackson said several years ago, “than to walk down the street and hear footsteps and start thinking about robbery—and then look around and see somebody white and feel relieved.” Jackson now says his quotation was “taken out of context.” The context, he said, is that violence is the inevitable byproduct of poor education and health care. But no amount of “context” matters when you fear that you are about to be mugged........."
From Goldbloom.
All his quotes illustrate the shallowness of his character and the depth of his hatred, fear and hypocrisy.
greenberetTFS
05-08-2011, 05:42
All his quotes illustrate the shallowness of his character and the depth of his hatred, rear END hypocrisy.
Dusty,hope you don't mind my correction to your quote...........;)
Big Teddy :munchin
Dusty,hope you don't mind my correction to your quote...........;)
Big Teddy :munchin
Have at it, Bro. :D
All his quotes illustrate the shallowness of his character and the depth of his hatred, fear and hypocrisy.
Well, that...and the fact that he's a jackass.
The Reaper
05-08-2011, 09:20
Well, that...and the fact that he's a jackass.
And an extortionist. But despite the fact that he grew up in a segregated America, he isn't illiterate.
Hmm.
TR
Sparty On
05-08-2011, 09:56
Apologies, gentlemen. I thought I might be of help, being that I've been in Detroit for 30 years and counting.
Looking back at my post -- I probably shouldn't have drank that scotch before I posted. The snarkiness wasn't my intention. :rolleyes:
The Reaper
05-08-2011, 10:17
Apologies, gentlemen. I thought I might be of help, being that I've been in Detroit for 30 years and counting.
Looking back at my post -- I probably shouldn't have drank that scotch before I posted. The snarkiness wasn't my intention. :rolleyes:
Snarkiness is not conducive to long term membership here.
A quick internet search shows that the literacy rate among black Americans was at 80% in 1890, just 35 years after slavery ended.
In 1969, the literacy rate of both black and white Americans was over 99%.
Currently, 35 years after desegregation and with huge education spending increases, the black American literacy rate is 56%, and whites are at 83%.
Why? What else has changed?
TR
Currently, 35 years after desegregation and with huge education spending increases, the black American literacy rate is 56%, and whites are at 83%.
Why?
I think this is the easiest answer is Mr Furious' quote.
For some, TV and being “street” are more important than books.[/B]
My public high school's graduating class had around 20 go to UC Berkeley, a few to Stanford, 1 to Harvard, 1 to Brown, etc etc. Our graduation rate was about 60%. Low by any standard.
Those that cared excelled; those that didn't did not excel. Most students that wanted 'street credibility' didn't graduate. Nation wide the urban culture surrounding learning is terrible, the family situation is terrible, so the illiteracy rates are terrible.
Why? What else has changed?
TR
Perhaps lowered expectations, in line with the Bill Cosby comment.
A while back I read a chapter from a college textbook published in 1963. The language was powerful and elegant. I like big words, and I got a full dose - the books today are nowhere close.
In addition, I had to take an online course Saturday which discussed reading comprehension. It asserted that the average American reads at the 8th grade level, and also pointed out that if that is the average, many are below that level.
If we're letting people graduate from high school and college with limited ability to read and write, I don't know where we can place the blame other than with lowered standards.
Perhaps lowered expectations, in line with the Bill Cosby comment.
A while back I read a chapter from a college textbook published in 1963. The language was powerful and elegant. I like big words, and I got a full dose - the books today are nowhere close.
In addition, I had to take an online course Saturday which discussed reading comprehension. It asserted that the average American reads at the 8th grade level, and also pointed out that if that is the average, many are below that level.
If we're letting people graduate from high school and college with limited ability to read and write, I don't know where we can place the blame other than with lowered standards.
If we're letting people graduate from high school and college with limited ability to read and write, I don't know where we can place the blame other than with lowered standards.[/QUOTE
That nutshells the issue.
................That nutshells the issue.
I was going to put something in Pink about the issue but..............
The parents don't care, the students don't care, teachers - it's just a paycheck and politicians - just some potential new voters.
As long as the underclass can make a low level living milking the government ain't nothing going to change.
I was going to put something in Pink about the issue but..............
The parents don't care, the students don't care, teachers - it's just a paycheck and politicians - just some potential new voters.
As long as the underclass can make a low level living milking the government ain't nothing going to change.
Well...tempted as I am to be cynical...I'm not sure that they don't care. Perhaps it isn't that they don't care, but rather that they care about the wrong things.
In at least some instances the parents do care. To the point where they berate and threaten teachers and administrators when their children don't get the grades they think they should have. The easy way out is to give unearned high grades, and there is a great deal of that.
The students? Again, they care about the grades in many instances - not all, but many. Not the learning, of course. But they want an A and will press for it. They'll even look for extra credit - after turning in slop they should be ashamed of.
The teachers? I think the problem is that they do care, in some instances a great deal - but that paycheck pays the bills. So given a choice between principle and paycheck, the decision is easy. If the administration doesn't want complaints from students or parents, and won't support their subordinates in any sort of dispute, then grade inflation is very, very easy to do. There is no immediate, personal downside. Make no mistake, such pressure comes from the top. The code word is "retention" - which means, don't give the students a D or F. Often, it means don't give the student a C.
Administrators? The politicians are looking for places to cut, and education does have some fat that could (and should) be trimmed. But administrators don't want their organization to be the target, and understandably so. Thus, the administrators give politicians what they say they want - better retention, higher graduation rates, and so forth.
And the politicians? They want the numbers to look good so they can get reelected. In essence, they want to hold on to their jobs.
At each level, individuals pursue their personal best interests. It's hardly surprising, and, frankly, completely rational. But the greater good is not served - rather, it may well have been hurt. However, the spirit of sacrifice for the good of the society or the organization does not seem common in the world I observe. Taking one for the team seems to require a very different mindset.
Anyway, just my observations. MOO, YMMV.
I was going to put something in Pink about the issue but..............
The parents don't care, the students don't care, teachers - it's just a paycheck and politicians - just some potential new voters.
As long as the underclass can make a low level living milking the government ain't nothing going to change.
Exactly. To me, that indicates a lowering of the standards over recent decades on the part of students, parents, teachers, administrators and politicians; it goes back to the genesis of the entitlement programs instituted by liberals.
I don't think nmap was referring only to the curriculum...
1stindoor
05-09-2011, 07:12
In at least some instances the parents do care. To the point where they berate and threaten teachers and administrators when their children don't get the grades they think they should have. The easy way out is to give unearned high grades, and there is a great deal of that.
I try not to make too many "blanket" statements but sometimes the parents berate and threaten threaten the students as well. My issue at times is with the teachers and administrators that don't want to give a grade the student deserves because they can't recover from it. For example,...from one of my child's teachers, "I'll give a 65 instead of a zero for assignments that were never turned in, because a zero is so hard to overcome." I left in disgust.
The students? Again, they care about the grades in many instances - not all, but many. Not the learning, of course. But they want an A and will press for it. They'll even look for extra credit - after turning in slop they should be ashamed of.
Sadly, I have to agree with you. Want to see how pi$$ed off you can make a kid...tear up their homework assignment and tell them to redo it. If looks could kill...I would have been murdered years ago. Even now I get the occasional excuse from one of mine that the teacher isn't fair because he/she isn't letting us turn in our work a day later because they forgot to take it to school. I'm not sympathetic.
The teachers? I think the problem is that they do care, in some instances a great deal - but that paycheck pays the bills. So given a choice between principle and paycheck, the decision is easy.
As the husband of a teacher I can tell you that most do care...at least in the school my wife works at and my the schools my kids attend. Part of the problem is the administrators putting additional requirements on the teachers and pushing new "good ideas" every year.
From 2005 or so, but I suspect not much has changed (except of course the national debt situation, the value of the dollar, the price of fuel and the value of real property, among other things - all have generally deteriorated).
A nationwide study released by the nonpartisan Bay Area Center for Voting Research (BACVR) ranks the political leanings of every American city and finds that Detroit, Michigan is the most liberal and Provo, Utah the most conservative.
http://alt.coxnewsweb.com/statesman/metro/081205libs.pdf
Excerpt:
The Twenty-Five Most Liberal Cities in America
The twenty-five most liberal cities in the United States share much different characteristics than their conservative counterparts—many have large African American populations, large portions of the populations are single, many are larger cities located in urban environments, and lower average levels of income and education are prevalent. The top twenty five liberal cities come mostly from the traditionally liberal Northeast and West coast, with a surprising number of cities near the top coming from the Midwest. This confirms that the Northeast and West coast continue to be liberal strongholds in America, but also indicates that the Midwest is beginning to shift closer to the liberal end of the spectrum. Detroit, Michigan tops the list of the twenty-five most liberal cities in the United States. Unlike Provo, Detroit is a large metropolitan center with a population of 951,270. As the center of America’s auto industry Detroit is an industrial unionized environment where more than a quarter of the population is below the poverty line and contains a large African American population, which in turn all contributed to its support for liberal candidates. Liberal candidates garnered 93.96% of the vote in Detroit while conservative candidates held onto a mere 6.04% of the vote. Other cities with over 90% liberal votes include: Gary, Indiana; Berkeley, California; the District of Columbia and Oakland, California. The other top liberal cities in the top twenty five range from 78% to 90% votes for liberal candidates. Conservative candidates got from 6% to 22 % of the vote in the liberal cities.
Table 2: Top Twenty-Five Most Liberal Cities
Rank City State
1 Detroit Michigan
2 Gary Indiana
3 Berkeley California
4 District of Columbia
5 Oakland California
6 Inglewood California
7 Newark New Jersey
8 Cambridge Massachusetts
9 San Francisco California
10 Flint Michigan
11 Cleveland Ohio
12 Hartford Connecticut
13 Paterson New Jersey
14 Baltimore Maryland
15 New Haven Connecticut
16 Seattle Washington
17 Chicago Illinois
18 Philadelphia Pennsylvania
19 Birmingham Alabama
20 St. Louis Missouri
21 New York New York
22 Providence Rhode Island
23 Minneapolis Minnesota
24 Boston Massachusetts
25 Buffalo New York
At the link below is a study illustrating low graduation rates among well funded city school systems - of particular note for purposes of our discussion is Detroit ranked # 7 nationally in expenditures - approx. $13,500/student - I defer to professional K-12 educators - as to whether this is a sufficient annual expenditure for teachers to teach students how to read and write. It is interesting to look at both the per student expenditure and the graduation rate.
http://www.heritage.org/static/reportimages/57EAC2158291FB1057F142C86F169A7F.gif
For SAT success and Ivy League opportunity - I defer to others. However, it appears to me that Detroit is a long way from being too concerned about those discussions at the moment - 25m target.
This prolly ain't helpin' the literacy rate much...
http://detroit.cbslocal.com/2011/05/10/crack-pipes-often-disguised-as-novelty-items-at-stores/
1stindoor
05-10-2011, 11:06
From 2005 or so, ...
Thanks for the link.
.............Detroit ranked # 7 nationally in expenditures - approx. $13,500/student - I defer to professional K-12 educators - as to whether this is a sufficient annual expenditure for teachers to teach students how to read and write. ................
$202,500.
Taking $13,500 at face value - not counting any other funding - and the ideal class size of 15 - that means each classroom is pulling in $202,500 each year.
Subtract the teacher's pay and the rest is used to fund the system.
That's the problem - too much overhead. Fire half the people outside the classromm and double the teacher's pay - but base that on results - results confirmed in national tests.
turducken
05-10-2011, 11:42
$202,500.
Taking $13,500 at face value - not counting any other funding - and the ideal class size of 15 - that means each classroom is pulling in $202,500 each year.
Subtract the teacher's pay and the rest is used to fund the system.
That's the problem - too much overhead. Fire half the people outside the classromm and double the teacher's pay - but base that on results - results confirmed in national tests.
Pete I like the idea of basing it on results, but I believe that was tried in the Chicago Public School system some time ago(Not 100% on Chicago). However, what ended up happening was many teachers ended up teaching specifically for the tests, which resulted in lower scores in other exams, or even in some cases aiding students with cheating (sometimes telling the students answer, extra time etc.) I'm sorry that I don't have a link at the moment, but I did a short paper on this ~1 year ago or so and I remember the general gist of it. I have two finals that I have to head to now, and work after but I'll try and pull up a link later today and either edit it into this post or post it farther down this thread.
Turducken
EDIT:
http://www.chicagobooth.edu/capideas/may05/cheating.html That one is from Steven Levitt, author of Freakonomics, regarding the CPS and a relatively large amount of cheating involving the incentives program.
I also found this http://www.economics.harvard.edu/faculty/fryer/files/teacher%2Bincentives.pdf report which I included as a counterpoint to Levitt. The abstract states:
Financial incentives for teachers to increase student performance is an increasingly popular education
policy around the world. This paper describes a school-based randomized trial in over two-hundred
New York City public schools designed to better understand the impact of teacher incentives on student
achievement. I find no evidence that teacher incentives increase student performance, attendance, or
graduation, nor do I find any evidence that the incentives change student or teacher behavior. If anything,
teacher incentives may decrease student achievement, especially in larger schools. The paper concludes
with a speculative discussion of theories that may explain these stark results
Pretty long report, but well worth the read if it interests you.
............ However, what ended up happening was many teachers ended up teaching specifically for the tests, which resulted in lower scores in other exams, ...........
Teachers should be teaching the subject - no the test. But I know around here the End Of Grade (EOG) tests are treated the same way.
Drove my girls and the other smart kids nuts. The class was dumbed down to the lowest level and taught the test.
2 = 2 = 4, 2 + 2 = 4, 2 + 2 = 4. Got it? Yeah. Test day 3 + 3 = 4. Did I pass?
What level of Civics, English and Math should be required per grade level?
Is there an online source for practice tests for seniors where we could go to check it out? See how we stack up?
Longstreet
05-10-2011, 12:57
That's the problem - too much overhead. Fire half the people outside the classromm and double the teacher's pay - but base that on results - results confirmed in national tests.
While I do not teach in the American educational system, in Canada we face similar problems. The amount of money that is frivolously wasted on non-classroom related expenses is disgusting. I can tell you many stories where a ridiculous amount of money was wasted to buy things that would not help students. Just yesterday we had a PD Day and chocolate bars were given out as rewards to teachers – isn’t there something ironic about that? While each chocolate bar was an Aero, they were wrapped with our board’s logo and teaching philosophy (which ironically was the same philosophy from years ago and will soon be replaced with a different philosophy from years ago with the only difference being new buzz words). Wonder how much money was spent on that little bit of marketing? And let’s not forget the stickers, posters, t-shirts, lapel pins and any other money costing marketing knick-knacks. I have always wondered, given that we are a public board, who are they marketing us to?
I digress though, standardized tests are not the solution to low test scores. If you want students scores to increase, do the following:
1. Let teachers do their jobs and teach. Stop with the new board philosophies that as mentioned are just recycled ideas from years ago with new names attached to them. Stop with the constant interruptions and cut the red tape which ultimately limits teaching time. Most teachers have a passion for their job and are doing the best they can. Leave them alone and let them do their work.
2. Remove all students who do not want to be in the classroom. By doing this, teachers can now redirect their energy to help those students who want to learn. The students who have been removed are to report to a sweat shop where they can see what it is like to do boring monotonous work for a few weeks. Then see if they then understand the importance of an education and are ready to return to the classroom. Those students who do not ‘get it’ are the ones who will likely become the burdens to society which as sad as it may be, you cannot save everyone. The world needs winners and the world needs losers. It is the law of nature. Look at it this way though. By having a sweat shop, you will be limiting society’s burdens as students will be able to make a choice and see what the fruits of their labour will allow them to avoid.
3. Student assessment should not be done in the form of a standardized test, but rather interviews and portfolios. I have said it before and I will say it again, I have never seen a standardized student so how can we expect to base a student’s understanding on a standardized test? Standardized tests are just an easy way for the public to understand where they think their child is. They only show on the surface what a student’s abilities are and do not look at a student’s abilities in any great depth.
But alas, I am just a small cog in the machine and much of what I think falls on deaf ears. Oh well. While I would love to do some PT now, I have marking to do and minds to inspire.
jaYson
This prolly ain't helpin' the literacy rate much...
http://detroit.cbslocal.com/2011/05/10/crack-pipes-often-disguised-as-novelty-items-at-stores/
But, it does wonders for some poets...there's this fella Common...made it all the way to the White House...;)
FORBES
Education
The Best Schools For Your Real Estate Buck
Dan Fisher, 04.26.11, 12:00 PM EDT
Our second annual look at America's top districts again demolishes the idea that more money equals a better education.
http://www.forbes.com/2011/04/25/best-schools-for-real-estate-buck.html
......3. Student assessment should not be done in the form of a standardized test, but rather interviews and portfolios. I have said it before and I will say it again, I have never seen a standardized student so how can we expect to base a student’s understanding on a standardized test? ......
Is two plus two that is taught in the classroom not the same two plus two on the test?
Is the answer to "Are we a Democracy" a no in the classroom and a yes on the test?
Interviews and portfolios? Every student a 4.0 it looks like to me.
Longstreet
05-10-2011, 14:01
Is two plus two that is taught in the classroom not the same two plus two on the test?
Is the answer to "Are we a Democracy" a no in the classroom and a yes on the test?
Interviews and portfolios? Every student a 4.0 it looks like to me.
Reseach has proved that when loking at education, we often resort back to what we learned when we were children. The problem is, who is to say the way we were taught was better?
A standardized test only shows a student's abilities from that point of time. There are many factors that can sway the results - home life, diet, personal pressure to name a few. I have a student who is intelligent, but has an identified problem with putting ideas on paper. Give him a computer or scribe for him and he performs at grade level. Have him write using a pen and he drops down to a Grade 2 level. Just the other day we had open house where parents were able to enter the classroom and observe what a typical day was like. While not a current student of my own, a very bight student was not able to do simple mathematic processing simply because his mom was in the room. When she left, he returned to his 'usual' self and was able to complete his work at the A level he was usually at. If this is what happens to a student who is simply dealing with pressure from having his mother in the class, what would it be like if he is writing a test that determines his future?
Portfolios do not mean 4.0 if they are used correctly. Pete, I wish I could sit you down and show you how valuable they are. I am certain you would be able to see the difference betwen a Level 2 and Leve 4 portfolio. Remember though, not everyone is destined to be a Level 4 or Level 3 student. Some of the greatest minds have been Level 2 or even Level 1 students so children do not need to be written off. Infact, school marks has been a very poor method to determine a person's intelligence in the real world. Anyway, when we use portfolios, students add work they are happy with each term and then we are able to compare it with September. All work is compared to Provincal government set of Exemplars to then determine the mark. The portfolios are simply a method of getting a deeper sense of what a student's abilities are over a period of time. They also allow teachers to comment on what a student is doing well and then offer advice on how to make improvements.
jaYson
ZonieDiver
05-10-2011, 15:29
Standardized tests are part of the answer, but not the entire answer.
In my view, there is no foolproof way to determine a student's knowledge about a question such as, "What is a democracy?" from a standardized test alone.
Portfolios, interviews, essay tests, peer assessment - as well as standardized tests - are part of the solution.
Removing "those who refuse to learn" from class is part of it.
Attendance requirements that are held to are part of it. (I have a colleague in "day school" who has a student who has been absent 25 times this semester. He tried to have her dropped from his class. The counselor refused and said, "Just fail her." That shows up in his grade statistics, which he must then justify. He failed her...but WHY was she allowed to be there?)
In our district, if you have less than 51% of your students who are SPED, you are not able to have a SPED "inclusion" teacher. Imagine a class of 34 - some as sharp as tacks - with 17 SPED students of widely varying needs.
Most "gifted and talented" programs (at least in our district) are a joke.
Part of me wants to go to work for our new Sup't. of Public Instruction in AZ to make some changes. The other part wants to head to the beach. The beach is winning.
I started teaching in public schools in 1975. A lot of "programs" have been rolled out since then. The US Dept of Education has grown in power. As Longstreet said, old ideas that failed are repackaged, re-termed, and re-introduced. Good teachers leave the field in droves. Young ones often last only 2 or 3 years.
In my not so humble opinion, the whole system needs to be crashed. Smaller is usually better. The large, industrial high school - especially in an urban environment - no longer makes a lot of sense.
I'm tired... <rant off>
The Reaper
05-10-2011, 16:28
FORBES
Education
The Best Schools For Your Real Estate Buck
Dan Fisher, 04.26.11, 12:00 PM EDT
Our second annual look at America's top districts again demolishes the idea that more money equals a better education.
http://www.forbes.com/2011/04/25/best-schools-for-real-estate-buck.html
Racists.:munchin
TR
Racists.:munchin
TR
Hell, the whole Country's racist, Bro.
Did you know that not once in the history of this Nation has a black POTUS been re-elected?:D
turducken
05-10-2011, 20:20
Teachers should be teaching the subject - no the test. But I know around here the End Of Grade (EOG) tests are treated the same way.
Drove my girls and the other smart kids nuts. The class was dumbed down to the lowest level and taught the test.
2 = 2 = 4, 2 + 2 = 4, 2 + 2 = 4. Got it? Yeah. Test day 3 + 3 = 4. Did I pass?
What level of Civics, English and Math should be required per grade level?
Is there an online source for practice tests for seniors where we could go to check it out? See how we stack up?
Regarding what I had posted earlier about corruption related to teacher/school incentives for student test scores, I was able to find an article covering the topic about teachers cheating on tests in CPS.
However, the biggest problem I have with the tests I had to take in high school and even elementary school was simply how little they corresponded with actual knowledge. I remember sitting and taking the work keys test (mandatory basic skills test in IL) my junior year of high school after finishing the ACT. A question I still remember 5 years later is "You have seven people, you can only fit three people in a tent. How many tents do you need?" That was a question from the allegedly intermediate advanced section of a section titled something similar to math skills for day to day living. The advanced section that came later was no more difficult. At the high school I attended I would estimate that easily 10% of the kids would have been able to max out the scoring. However, scoring like this is still entirely objective, and to my knowledge no standardized test in IL tests subjects like history, government or politics, or anything beyond very basic science.
Basically what I am trying to get at is that the tests need to be revamped. In my opinion the problem rests with students just as much as teachers. Recent threads like the convenience store mass robbery have illustrated the lack of care that many young people seem to have regarding their future. I was fortunate enough to have a mother who was a teacher and be raised in an excellent public school system and I cringed when I saw kids around me waisting their opportunities there. Students need to start learning and caring about a broader subject range, rather than just taking the courses that they think will prepare them best for the 4 subject ACT. It seems today that the focus is on testing results, and they often don't seem to correlate that well to how prepared you are for college or to a well rounded student.
Sorry for the long rant, got sort of caught up in a subject that happens to resonate pretty strongly with me.
PS included the testing articles with my previous post regarding them.
Turducken
A quick internet search shows that the literacy rate among black Americans was at 80% in 1890, just 35 years after slavery ended.
In 1969, the literacy rate of both black and white Americans was over 99%.
Currently, 35 years after desegregation and with huge education spending increases, the black American literacy rate is 56%, and whites are at 83%.
Why? What else has changed?
TRTR--
With respect, I think those statistics may be inaccurate.
According to the U.S. Department of Commerce, Bureau of the Census, Historical Statistics of the United States, Colonial Times to 1970; and Current Population Reports, Series P-23, Ancestry and Language in the United States (November 1979) as tabulated here (http://nces.ed.gov/naal/lit_history.asp#illiteracy), the literacy rate among African Americans in 1890 was 43%. In 1969, the literacy rate for that same cohort was 96.4%
As for a present day comparison, the attached PDF presents a comparison of educational attainment by age, sex, gender, and race in 2010. (The source file, in .xls format, is here (http://www.census.gov/hhes/socdemo/education/data/cps/2010/Table3.xls).)
Sig - I liked the chart by my eyes - my eyes.
That chart covers paper right? Not ability?
How well does the average inner city kid with a brand new high school diploma really read?
The place my wife worked a couple of jobs ago had a policy where a job application had to be filled out in the waiting room - under the eyes of the secretary. When it was turned in and the person departed the secretary would write "needed help" on the top of the application of the ones that did. When the boss reviewed the applications those went straight in the trash.
Sig - I liked the chart by my eyes - my eyes.
That chart covers paper right? Not ability?
How well does the average inner city kid with a brand new high school diploma really read?
The place my wife worked a couple of jobs ago had a policy where a job application had to be filled out in the waiting room - under the eyes of the secretary. When it was turned in and the person departed the secretary would write "needed help" on the top of the application of the ones that did. When the boss reviewed the applications those went straight in the trash.QP Pete--
The PDF is formatted to print at 17" by 11". If viewing it digitally, I suppose one must resort to using the zoom functionality.
Yes, the table talks about attainment not ability. I've not yet found literacy data for this decade. The website for the 2010 census is up and running but data are being released slowly and only those that provide broad brush portraits of indvidual states.
That being said, in my research for this thread I've found that the definition of literacy is dynamic. To some, it refers to the ability to read and to respond to census questions. To others, such as the team who wrote the Detroit Regional Workforce Fund report, literacy is about basic tasks in some aspects of their everyday lives.
The Reaper
05-11-2011, 19:08
TR--
With respect, I think those statistics may be inaccurate.
According to the U.S. Department of Commerce, Bureau of the Census, Historical Statistics of the United States, Colonial Times to 1970; and Current Population Reports, Series P-23, Ancestry and Language in the United States (November 1979) as tabulated here (http://nces.ed.gov/naal/lit_history.asp#illiteracy), the literacy rate among African Americans in 1890 was 43%. In 1969, the literacy rate for that same cohort was 96.4%
As for a present day comparison, the attached PDF presents a comparison of educational attainment by age, sex, gender, and race in 2010. (The source file, in .xls format, is here (http://www.census.gov/hhes/socdemo/education/data/cps/2010/Table3.xls).)
They may be, but that was what I found on line several days ago when I made that post. Seemed to be the more credible of the sources I found. The 1969 nunbers are close to yours, and as noted, your graphic has nothing to do with illiteracy.
I suspect that there are plenty of illiterate graduates and well-read drop-outs.
The point remains, that the literacy rate for all Americans has declined, and precipitously among black Americans, despite massive education spending increases, free public kindergarten and pre-school, free school nutrition programs for the needy, and added school staffing.
Why?
TR
What level of Civics, English and Math should be required per grade level.
Pete, below are some recent publications on Civics that may be of some interest.
The Nation's Report Card: Civics 2010
May 2011
Author: National Center for Education Statistics
http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/pubs/main2010/2011466.asp
Civics 2010
NATIONAL ASSESSMENT OF EDUCATIONAL PROGRESS AT GRADES 4, 8, AND 12
http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/pdf/main2010/2011466.pdf
Why?
I believe that people in aggregate operate in a rational manner. Maybe not as individuals, but in a large group...and assuming that group isn't in the midst of an emotional upheaval, such as a riot...they will function rationally according to some set of rules.
That said, I have to respond with "Why should they?"
The classic middle-class values emphasized deferred gratification. They promoted work today for benefits in the future. However, such values seem to have weakened throughout our society. In addition, I wonder whether the transition of the family toward single-parent households hasn't interfered with the transmission of values to the children.
So, from a very short term perspective...say, one with a time-horizon of a month or less...why should a student do their assignments, learn to read or write, or anything else?
Along this line, if the schools inflate grades and provide social promotions, there is still less short-term benefit to learning. Furthermore, if the parents accept the poor learning outcomes (learning as opposed to grades), then there may be no perceived benefit to learning - no benefit at all.
In essence, aren't we asking someone who is oriented toward the very short term to think in terms of what happens in 5 years? I don't see such behavior often anywhere else in society, so I'm not sure I can expect it in this particular instance.
Perhaps the key change is the family structure. Maybe that is the fundamental problem - that the parents need to become involved and fully committed to learning. This seems out of step with our existing societal priorities, so fixing it may be a very big challenge.
As always, MOO, YMMV.
Sparty On
05-12-2011, 10:13
I'll be back in the D tonight, unarmed as usual. This thread will be in the back of my mind.
One of the things I keep coming back to when I have discussions about Detroit with folks is: There is no simple solution to Detroit's problems. It will take a concerted effort by many people over a period of many years to get Detroit back on any track, let alone the right track. For that to happen, people have to care, and right now, not enough people care.
I think QP Buffalobob is spot-on with this comment:
I suspect that living in a really poor community in a city is much like in growing up in Appalachia - its about survival. Don't know that as a fact being as I am not a sociologist nor anthropologist but it is my observation.
Many of the residents of Detroit don't need to be literate to survive in the city they were born in and likely will not leave.
This is similar to some (not all) of the indigenous people the QPs have worked with in UW/FID capacities. Indigenous folks may not be able to read a book, but that doesn't mean they lack intelligence -- in their context, they don't need to read books.
...........What search terms did enter in Google? I'd be interested in reading those numbers but I'm having a hard time duplicating your results.
Good day!
I think your posts continue to be a tad on the snarky side. Did you miss Sigaba's post # 115 or TR's response?
Instead of the snarky little comment you could have linked to your own stats you found.
Sparty On
05-12-2011, 10:42
I think your posts continue to be a tad on the snarky side. Did you miss Sigaba's post # 115 or TR's response?
Instead of the snarky little comment you could have linked to your own stats you found.
Dammit. I did miss that. Good catch.
There's a reason some cities are called 'concrete jungles.' Learning is not needed nor valued for survival.
And why some school environments are referred to as "The Blackboard Jungle" (a novel by Evan Hunter based upon his experiences in a post-WW2 NYC vocational high school).
Richard :munchin
I think Sparty and Nmap are dead-on. There's a reason some cities are called 'concrete jungles.' Learning is not needed nor valued for survival.
In most cases, they were once nice places that were turned into jungles by the denizens. It's nobody's fault but the inhabitants.
That "jungle" known as Detroit is not in good company - some randomly selected countries of the world below...
From the CIA World Fact Book.
"There are no universal definitions and standards of literacy. Unless otherwise specified, all rates are based on the most common definition - the ability to read and write at a specified age. Detailing the standards that individual countries use to assess the ability to read and write is beyond the scope of the Factbook. Information on literacy, while not a perfect measure of educational results, is probably the most easily available and valid for international comparisons. Low levels of literacy, and education in general, can impede the economic development of a country in the current rapidly changing, technology-driven world."
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/2103.html
Percentage of some populations that can read and write:
Ethiopia 50.3%
Gaza Strip 92.4%
Georgia 100%
Germany 99%
Haiti 52.9%
India 73.4%
Laos 73%
Malaysia 88.7 %
Mali 46.1 %
Mexico 86.1 %
Morocco 52.3 %
Nicaragua 67.2%
Nigeria 68%
Norway 100%
Pakistan 49.9%
Poland 99.8%
Russia 99.4%
Saudi Arabia 78.8%
Spain 97.9%
Swaziland 81.6%
Syria 79.6
Thailand 92.6%
Turkey 87.4%
Ukraine 99.4%
United States 99%
Viet Nam 90.3%
West Bank 92.4%
World 82%
Zimbabwe 90.7%
I wonder if we should ask...
"Do we, as a society, admire or respect learning? If so, how do we show that admiration or respect?"
My contention is that we do not. Whether we should is a different matter.
Let's examine the evening local news on television. How much do we see about intellectual activity or accomplishment? In San Antonio, I see almost nothing. There is considerable coverage of sports and sports accomplishments, some coverage of volunteerism, but little about learning in the usual sense.
How about newspapers, magazines, and movies...or, for that matter, popular TV shows? There isn't much about learning, is there? In fiction we may have the "mad scientist" or the maladjusted (or socially inept) geek, but essentially nothing positive.
We can shift our focus to money. While it's true that the educated tend to make more money than the uneducated, the incomes tend to be middle-class in scope. A few doctors and lawyers make very good money, but when we look at averages, even those professionals aren't getting rich. The fellow with a simple bachelor's degree from a so-so college may be hanging on to middle-class status by his fingernails. I note that a few sports stars and celebrities make very good money. If our hypothetical teen is well-versed in statistics, they might notice that the likelihood of being such a star is small - but if they're none too literate, I believe we can dismiss that possibility.
So...let's suppose we have an impressionable youth in their early teens. They watch TV, listen to music, and talk with their peers. Do they hear anything that causes them to invest years of their lives and considerable cash in getting a college degree? Do they see or hear anything that urges them to learn just for the pleasure or sense of accomplishment it might provide?
If not, then we face my earlier question. Why should they bother?
Unless our culture provides a really good answer, a compelling answer, then we cannot be surprised when they choose not to do so.
Here's one problem:
http://www.freep.com/article/20110512/NEWS01/105120535/Money-help-poor-people-buys-furniture-Detroit-department?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|FRONTPAGE
Here's one problem:
http://www.freep.com/article/20110512/NEWS01/105120535/Money-help-poor-people-buys-furniture-Detroit-department?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|FRONTPAGE
Fascinating article. The very fact that the department that has, seemingly, violated the law can refuse to respond is revealing.
So, hypothetical teen, which pays better? Getting a graduate degree, or learning the fine art of corrupt dealings?
Fascinating article. The very fact that the department that has, seemingly, violated the law can refuse to respond is revealing.
So, hypothetical teen, which pays better? Getting a graduate degree, or learning the fine art of corrupt dealings?
See, that's the cause of the fucking disease. Honor should come first to all humans, not money.
See, that's the cause of the fucking disease. Honor should come first to all humans, not money.
Yes, it is. I've thought a lot about the discussion on the slavery thread and the issue of the moral compass. Without some sort of moral compass - something shared by almost everyone in the society - everything seems to fall apart.
Put the Lord's Prayer back in the schools, and the problems will go away.
That's when all this bullshit started to snowball.
Because only Christians understand honor and morality?
They're not alone in their understanding of those concepts, no. Why do you correlate honor and morality with the Lord's Prayer?
"[in Detroit]...learning is not needed nor valued for survival."
Why is it that the Gaza Strip (among one of the more difficult places on earth to learn, I suspect) blows away Detroit's numbers on a relative basis.
Why are Haiti's reported numbers comparable to Detroit's. We all know how difficult things are in Haiti. Survival really is a priority there.
Dare I ask a difficult question - could it be that Detroit is not really about survival? That is, despite the romantic notions of a blackboard jungle...when compared to a real jungle and real survival situation there is actually no comparison.
Does the influx of huge sums of money being distributed at federal, state, and local levels in Detroit (it must be billions over the decades) create an actual disincentive for some folks in Detroit to really make an effort to clean up their jungle and create an environment for learning?
These huge sums of money, when combined with the corruption being modeled a la Dusty's article may create an environment that suggests that reading and writing is NOT about survival. Hell, it's not even a priority.
Some folks in this country learned to read and write with home made flash cards - don't ask me how I know. Maybe family dedication and involvement is the real key and not how much money is spent.
Maybe, if the adults really care about literacy they will take steps to clean up their jungle - meet literacy benchmarks each year - and take a leadership role instead of belly aching about what they don't have - look at what they do have - relatively speaking.
When life really is about survival - look at the literacy rates in some of those countries - the numbers are on par with - or far exceed Detroit.
I can guarantee that expenditures per student in countries with literacy rates approaching Detroit's - do not come close to the sums that Detroit burns per student annually - that Detroit has burned through for decades.
What could Haiti do if it had access to the money...bad example...what would many of these countries do if they had $10,000 - $15,000 per student, annually, to expend? If the locals in Detroit look at these world literacy numbers and travel to some of these second and third world nations - they might begin to understand how much can be done with so little.
Results not reasons.
The Reaper
05-12-2011, 14:51
Equal opportunity rests in the fact that there are 24 hours per day and 7 days per week for every human on the planet.
How they are used is up to the individual.
Equal outcomes are not guaranteed.
TR
Equal opportunity rests in the fact that there are 24 hours per day and 7 days per week for every human on the planet.
How they are used is up to the individual.
Equal outcomes are not guaranteed.
TR
That's as about as profound as anything I've read.
ZonieDiver
05-12-2011, 15:09
That's when all this bullshit started to snowball.
I date the precipitous decline in our educational efficacy to the beginning of the U.S. Department of Education. I'd also like to state that I was out of the educational field during its infancy and maturation. (I left in '81 and returned in '00.)
When I returned, it was a paperwork puzzle palace - mostly to no avail. Hands were tied. Can't do this. Can't do that. Administrators who used to be very visible in classrooms were now all but INvisible on campus, let alone in classrooms. Special Education had grown like topsy, and now ruled most schools with a myriad of rules - federally mandated and enforced through lawsuits. Couple this with the growth of "diploma mills" - such as UoP, and a lowering of "content standards" in many teacher preparation programs (one of my last student teachers had little knowledge of WWII basic facts - D-Day, Pearl Harbor, etc.), and you have what we have today.
The final nail in the coffin can be laid at the feet of President Obama's predecessor - President George W. Bush and his No Child Left Behind (which I call EVERY Child Left Behind). His work has been carried on and accelerated by Pres. Obama with his The Race To The Top (which has now been dubbed "The Race To Nowhere)!
Most people who rail about teachers would not - could not - last one week in a classroom, even a classroom in a so-called "good" school. It is not only psychologically and emotionally draining, it is physically draining as well. Instead of a "respected member of the community" as teachers used to be, they are now the butt of jokes, ridiculed, belittled, and blamed. As I leave this once fine profession, I wonder why the hell any sane person would enter it. We are going to get the quality of teachers that we so richly deserve.
I love students. I love my classes. I love teaching - especially history, government, and economics. I will be irreplaceable... not for my teaching skills, but for the breadth of knowledge and experience that I brought to my students, some due to my life experiences, and some due to the myriad of classes I've taken. (I don't have a Master's Degree - but I have well over 45 hours of post-graduate work, mostly "pick and choose" classes in my various subject matters.) Most of my colleagues have a "Master of Educational Leadership" or some such degree, which are often worthless to a classroom teacher.
The young teachers coming up know little, or nothing. Yesterday in my Economics class, I was asked by one of my ELL students (a young lady from Africa) to help her with her government class final exam review sheet. I didn't know what to tell her after reading questions that were based on "God only knows what" information about our U.S. Constitution. I wanted to give her a fifteen minute government class, but she just wanted the "right" answers, so she could pass the test - made all the more difficult due to her language barrier - and get that much desired high school diploma.
I don't teach in a suburban school. Mine is in central Phoenix. My evening school classes are filled with students from all of our district schools. About 30% are ELL students at various levels. Those who bemoan the bulk of our young people don't have a great deal of contact with them on a regular basis, I fear. Most of these kids are hard-working, focused, and polite. My students start school at 7:30 or 8:00 a.m. and are still in class at 8:30 p.m. Some are trying to recover from a bad start, due mostly to a lack of discipline in their lives, not having people who set standards and held them accountable for those standards. I have found that when you do that, most of them do their level best to attain those standards. Others are trying to graduate early and get a "jump start" on life and career - or further education and training. A significant minority (mostly because I have a large percentage of "illegals" who are unable to pursue the military option due to stupid policies that lump everyone into a category and are unable to look at an individual).
I am glad I am retiring, for this job is no longer fun. It used to be fun, even though it was hard work. I'll miss things like the senior boy who began to tear up when he passed the final exam, and knew he'd passed the class (Economics) that had seemed an insurmountable obstacle to his high school diploma. He'll be the first in his family to earn one. I'll never forget him, and I hope he'll never forget me.
<Rant off>
I'll end with this, though it has oft been overused:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnOrrknTxbI&feature=autoplay&list=PL488EB2A987E52E91&index=8&playnext=2
Roguish Lawyer
05-12-2011, 16:01
How about parents start to take some responsibility for their kids?
Entire post [/url]
God bless teachers like you, Zonie.
I know a young teacher here who started his career as a math teacher with much zeal. It's been beaten out him by the system, the administrators, the parents, and the students. It's a sad thing to see, when a young teacher throws up his hands in defeat and says, "I'm just marking time here." He shows special attention to those who want to learn, but for the rest, he does as he's asked: give students credit for answers whether they're right or wrong, and give no less than a C grade to any student. (Is that what No Child Left Behind Means?)
Susan
I know a young teacher here who started his career as a math teacher with much zeal. It's been beaten out him by the system, the administrators, the parents, and the students. It's a sad thing to see, when a young teacher throws up his hands in defeat and says, "I'm just marking time here." He shows special attention to those who want to learn, but for the rest, he does as he's asked: give students credit for answers whether they're right or wrong, and give no less than a C grade to any student.
He is not a 'teacher' if that's what he'd doing. He needs to be honest with himself and his charges, and either do it right or quit.
Is that what No Child Left Behind Means?
No.
Richard
Roguish Lawyer
05-12-2011, 16:50
I think this is part of a larger cultural phenomenon in this country. The radicals of the sixties went into and took over our schools, universities and media. Through their control of those institutions, they've made huge progress in destroying traditional American values.
Political correctness is now a social imperative in many parts of the country, including corporate America. Personal responsibility is no longer demanded of people. Nihilism is rapidly displacing a sense of right and wrong.
Look at little league and other kids' sports, for example. Increasingly scores are not kept. Everyone gets an equal opportunity to play. Criticism of players is no longer an accepted method of coaching. And (the title of one of my favorite books), everyone gets a trophy. The imperative is now making every kid feel good about themselves, even when they perform poorly. As a result, young adults in our country care more about their "rights" than things like honor, duty and hard work.
In my view, the most important thing for us to do in this country is to retake control of the schools and the media. These are our madrassas and we are doomed if we allow the status quo to continue.
Team Sergeant
05-12-2011, 16:54
I think this is part of a larger cultural phenomenon in this country. The radicals of the sixties went into and took over our schools, universities and media. Through their control of those institutions, they've made huge progress in destroying traditional American values.
Political correctness is now a social imperative in many parts of the country, including corporate America. Personal responsibility is no longer demanded of people. Nihilism is rapidly displacing a sense of right and wrong.
Look at little league and other kids' sports, for example. Increasingly scores are not kept. Everyone gets an equal opportunity to play. Criticism of players is no longer an accepted method of coaching. And (the title of one of my favorite books), everyone gets a trophy. The imperative is now making every kid feel good about themselves, even when they perform poorly. As a result, young adults in our country care more about their "rights" than things like honor, duty and hard work.
In my view, the most important thing for us to do in this country is to retake control of the schools and the media. These are our madrassas and we are doomed if we allow the status quo to continue.
Well said!
When do you plan to run for office? (Count me in.)
I
Look at little league and other kids' sports, for example. Increasingly scores are not kept. Everyone gets an equal opportunity to play. Criticism of players is no longer an accepted method of coaching. And (the title of one of my favorite books), everyone gets a trophy. The imperative is now making every kid feel good about themselves, even when they perform poorly. As a result, young adults in our country care more about their "rights" than things like honor, duty and hard work.
Funny you bring this up. I had a ...heated... discussion with a co-worker (lib) regarding this subject and he said it's the right thing to do, that kids need to feel good about themselves. I retorted that every experience in life is not always a win, but it is a learning experience, instead of making it "all ok and you all win" that they should be taught to feel good about giving it their best because sometimes you win and sometimes you lose. Getting back out there and giving it your all is how you win.
No good will ever come from rewarding poor performance with a trophy...literally or figuratively.
GratefulCitizen
05-12-2011, 21:07
Look at little league and other kids' sports, for example. Increasingly scores are not kept. Everyone gets an equal opportunity to play. Criticism of players is no longer an accepted method of coaching. And (the title of one of my favorite books), everyone gets a trophy. The imperative is now making every kid feel good about themselves, even when they perform poorly. As a result, young adults in our country care more about their "rights" than things like honor, duty and hard work.
My old man had an observation along these lines.
He was a career school teacher from the late 60's to the late 90's and coached sports for 25 years as well.
In the late 50's and early 60's, there was nothing wrong with being a fan.
Not everyone had to be the star of a sport (in underwater BB stacking or whatever...).
Absent, indifferent parents aren't the only problem.
There are now also the helicopter parents and the "center of the universe" child.
In his day, only some of the parents would show up for the home games and rarely would any go to an away game.
The sports were the students' thing.
However, when a state championship was won, hundreds cars would be lined up to greet the athletes upon their return.
Accolades were only given if something of merit was accomplished.
MOO- there's too much zero-sum thinking in the culture now.
Acknowledging the accomplishments of some does not diminish others.
************
************
Concerning "helping" those who start at a disadvantage,
there is a big difference between "help" and "enabling".
Enabling is cruel and perpetuates the cycle of poverty.
Let people reap what they sow and they might learn from experience.
He is not a 'teacher' if that's what he'd doing. He needs to be honest with himself and his charges, and either do it right or quit.
Agree, sir. It's been disappointing watching him give up the ideals he had.
As ZonieDriver said, why would any sane person teach? We are going to get the quality of teachers that we deserve as the good ones leave the profession disillusioned, disappointed and defeated.
Susan
Equal opportunity rests in the fact that there are 24 hours per day and 7 days per week for every human on the planet.
How they are used is up to the individual.
Equal outcomes are not guaranteed.
TR
When in doubt Detroit - refer to the wisdom above - I will.
FWIW, the U.S. Census Bureau's Statistical Abstract of the United States for 2011 has educational data available here (http://www.census.gov/prod/2011pubs/11statab/educ.pdf).
FWIW, the U.S. Census Bureau's Statistical Abstract of the United States for 2011 has educational data available here (http://www.census.gov/prod/2011pubs/11statab/educ.pdf).
More little charts - my eyes my eyes
Lots of charts and number to wade through but two did catch my eye. 230 & 234. Parental involvement in reading/story telling and Public vs Private numbers. A quick look didn't show any great change in either of those two. Small changes back and forth in some sections by they appeared to balance out over the years.
Entire post.For me, it was that table, table 231 (school readiness), and table 248 (parent participation in school-related activities).
Roguish Lawyer
05-18-2011, 11:06
I think this is part of a larger cultural phenomenon in this country. The radicals of the sixties went into and took over our schools, universities and media. Through their control of those institutions, they've made huge progress in destroying traditional American values.
Political correctness is now a social imperative in many parts of the country, including corporate America. Personal responsibility is no longer demanded of people. Nihilism is rapidly displacing a sense of right and wrong.
Look at little league and other kids' sports, for example. Increasingly scores are not kept. Everyone gets an equal opportunity to play. Criticism of players is no longer an accepted method of coaching. And (the title of one of my favorite books), everyone gets a trophy. The imperative is now making every kid feel good about themselves, even when they perform poorly. As a result, young adults in our country care more about their "rights" than things like honor, duty and hard work.
In my view, the most important thing for us to do in this country is to retake control of the schools and the media. These are our madrassas and we are doomed if we allow the status quo to continue.
See the attached:
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2011/05/18/soros-spending-48-million-funding-media-organizations/#ixzz1MhyZTUY3
Roguish Lawyer
09-07-2020, 17:00
I think this is part of a larger cultural phenomenon in this country. The radicals of the sixties went into and took over our schools, universities and media. Through their control of those institutions, they've made huge progress in destroying traditional American values.
Political correctness is now a social imperative in many parts of the country, including corporate America. Personal responsibility is no longer demanded of people. Nihilism is rapidly displacing a sense of right and wrong.
Look at little league and other kids' sports, for example. Increasingly scores are not kept. Everyone gets an equal opportunity to play. Criticism of players is no longer an accepted method of coaching. And (the title of one of my favorite books), everyone gets a trophy. The imperative is now making every kid feel good about themselves, even when they perform poorly. As a result, young adults in our country care more about their "rights" than things like honor, duty and hard work.
In my view, the most important thing for us to do in this country is to retake control of the schools and the media. These are our madrassas and we are doomed if we allow the status quo to continue.
Resurrecting this old thread -- one of many in which we discussed the American Marxist insurgency many years before people started noticing it.
We're now at Chapter 12 of HFCUI. When are we going to deal with the situation in a meaningful way? Or are we, as I fear, totally fucked?
:munchin
Old Dog New Trick
09-07-2020, 19:27
Resurrecting this old thread -- one of many in which we discussed the American Marxist insurgency many years before people started noticing it.
We're now at Chapter 12 of HFCUI. When are we going to deal with the situation in a meaningful way? Or are we, as I fear, totally fucked?
:munchin
We are soft, the silent majority doesn’t have the stomach to fight fire with fire, it hasn’t for 75 years wanted to wage war again; especially between family and neighbor. The first one from 1861-1865 and the simmering oppression worldwide between that conflict and now has only shaped the minds and ideology of those who live by the rules but had little to no part in making them. This can be corrected by the people and for the people.
Our Founding Fathers who risked all and gave us the single greatest document perhaps ever written to guide us, also gave us a warning: we give you “A republic, if you can keep it.” (Benjamin Franklin 1787)
It would appear that certain literary scholars, judges, elected officials, and radicals in academia and journalism [a free press] have interpreted those freedoms far beyond the intended meaning and purpose.
I don’t know what comes after this next election but I fear we may have to go back to a slightly earlier document and take a cue from the younger forefathers when they were filled with spit and vinegar before becoming wise old men in wigs they wrote: [right underneath the preamble] - That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such a form, as to them shall seek most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.
So we go from: Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness...to Safety and Happiness.
I don’t know if we need to go that far but I’m ready to. I’m fairly certain that if you take the ‘democratic’ leash off the police in these cities that burn every night the majority of these misguided ‘privileged white people‘ will go back home to their parents basement and smoke pot and play Call of Duty all night.
I also think the other social unrest and the BLM movement can be fixed with education and facts not being presented by a biased media, sports athletes and Hollywood celebrities who are dumber than shit but are given a platform and a microphone to spew their entitlement BS on a public stage. (No one elected you, you don’t get to make the rules.)
And some people just flat out need to be in a better place that more aligns with their beliefs...hint it’s not the USA.
No we are not totally fucked! Not yet.
tom kelly
09-08-2020, 11:46
The new radical progressive Democrat Party has metastasized and is now spreading to KILL Western Civilization. The politico's in Congress and the deep state actors have been in place for generations and have come to make and rule The U S A into their image and likeness. The U S A as "WE" the FOG's knew is slipping toward Socialism/ Communist ideals rapidly and if not stopped The U S A will not exist as we knew it in the past, A Republic, of the people, by the people and for the people. "ANSWERS" for the cure.