View Full Version : U.S. Pastor Terry Jones Burns Quran, Stirs Up Violence
Thanks jackass for jacking up all the hard work and sacrifice that every service member has put in over there.
KABUL, Afghanistan -- Thousands of protesters angry over the burning of a Quran by a Florida pastor stormed a U.N. compound Friday in northern Afghanistan, killing at least 12 people, including eight foreigners. The desecration of the Muslim holy book fueled resentment against the West at a critical moment in the Afghan war.
The demonstration in Mazar-i-Sharif turned violent when some protesters grabbed weapons from the U.N. guards and opened fire, then mobbed buildings and set fires on the compound, officials said. Demonstrators also massed in Kabul and the western city of Herat.
The topic of Quran burning stirred outrage among millions of Muslims and others worldwide after the Rev. Terry Jones' small church, Dove Outreach Center, threatened to destroy a copy of the holy book last year. The Florida pastor had backed down but the church went through with the burning last month.
Munir Ahmad Farhad, a spokesman in Balkh province, said the protest in Mazar-i-Sharif began peacefully when several hundred demonstrators gathered outside the U.N. mission's compound, choosing an obvious symbol of the international community's involvement in Afghanistan to denounce the Quran's destruction.
It turned violent when some protesters seized the guards' weapons and started shooting, then the crowds stormed the building, sending plumes of black smoke into the air. One protester, Ahmad Gul, a 32-year-old teacher in the city, said Afghan security forces at the scene killed and wounded protesters.
Gen. Daud Daud, commander of Afghan National Police in several northern provinces, said those killed included five Nepalese guards who were working for the U.N. and two other foreigners employed at the complex. He said one other foreigner was wounded. Later, Rawof Taj, deputy police chief in Balkh province, said the injured individual had died. Taj said 25 people had been arrested.
The nationalities of the other three foreigners was not known.
Interior Ministry spokesman Zemeri Bashary said four protesters also were killed and nearly two dozen civilians were wounded.
The Russian Foreign Ministry said P.O. Yershov, a Russian citizen who was employed at the U.N. office, was injured in an attack.
Dan McNorton, a spokesman for the United Nations Assistance Mission in Afghanistan, confirmed that people working for the U.N. had died in an attack on the operation center, but he could not provide details.
"The situation is still confusing and we are currently working to ascertain all the facts and take care of all our staff," he said from his office in Kabul.
Staffan de Mistura, the top U.N. official in Afghanistan, had left Kabul for Mazar-i-Sharif to personally handle the situation, he said.
Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon, who is in Nairobi, said it was "a cowardly attack that cannot be justified under any circumstances."
Deputy U.N. spokesman Farhan Haq said "a fairly substantial number" of U.N. staff and guards had been killed, but he gave no figure. "Among the casualties we believe that some of them were guards trying to protect the other staff," he said.
President Barack Obama strongly condemned the attack and stressed the importance of work of the U.N. staff in Afghanistan.
"Their work is essential to building a stronger Afghanistan for the benefit of all its citizens. We stress the importance of calm and urge all parties to reject violence and resolve differences through dialogue," Obama said.
Mohammad Azim, a businessman in Mazer-i-Sharif, said that clerics with loudspeakers drove around the city in two cars on Thursday to invite residents to the protest. After Friday prayers at a large blue mosque in the city center, clerics again called on worshippers to attend a peaceful protest.
When Abdul Karim, a police officer in Mazar-i-Sharif, went inside the compound to investigate, he saw the bullet-riddled bodies of three Nepalese guards lying in the yard, and a fourth on the first floor.
He said another victim with a fatal head wound died on a stairway to the basement of the compound, which was littered with broken glass and bullet casings. A man who was killed inside a room had wounds to his face and body, Karim said.
Several hundred people also protested the Quran burning at several sites in Herat, a city in western Afghanistan. Protesters burned a U.S. flag at a sports stadium in Herat and chanted "Death to the U.S." and "They broke the heart of Islam."
About 100 people also gathered at a traffic circle near the U.S. Embassy in Kabul. Police directed traffic around the demonstration in the capital. One protester carried a sign that said: "We want these bloody bastard Americans with all their forces to leave Afghanistan."
The Gainesville, Florida church's website stated that after a five-hour trial on March 20, the Quran "was found guilty and a copy was burned inside the building." A picture on the website shows a book in flames in a small portable fire pit. The church on Friday confirmed that the Quran had been burned.
In a statement, Jones did not comment on whether his act had lead to the deaths. Instead he said it was time to "hold Islam accountable" and called on the United States and the U.N. to hold "these countries and people accountable for what they have done as well as for any excuses they may use to promote their terrorist activities."
Last week, Afghan President Hamid Karzai issued a statement calling the burning a "crime against a religion." He denounced it as a "disrespectful and abhorrent act" and called on the U.S. and the United Nations to bring to justice those who burned the holy book and issue a response to Muslims around the world.
Read more: http://www.cbs12.com/articles/afghanistan-4731736-protesters-quran.html#ixzz1INiW6Rnj
So should we just convert now and save some time?
So you're saying it's OK to react that way when someone burns your Holy Book?
Well if you kill someone here in the US because they burned your Holy Book you'll go to jail.
Over there you get a pat on the back.
So to get back to your basic statement "Should we stop doing things that PO Muslims?"
Then the next questions would be "Just what POs Muslims?"
Then the next questions would be "Just what POs Muslims?"
Apparently anything as long as they can point the finger at the US.
R :munchin
So should we just convert now and save some time?
So you're saying it's OK to react that way when someone burns your Holy Book?
Well if you kill someone here in the US because they burned your Holy Book you'll go to jail.
Over there you get a pat on the back.
So to get back to your basic statement "Should we stop doing things that PO Muslims?"
Then the next questions would be "Just what POs Muslims?"
Pete Sir, VERY WELL SAID!!!!!:mad:
Freedom in this United States of America, means freedom to call a spade a spade, and stand-up for what you believe.
It means Our Constitution protects us as citizens to not have it beat out of you in some torture session by the local police, just because you disagree with a religious philosophy.
This is just my own simple, humble opinion as an American, who thanks the Brave men and women who protect this freedom everyday! This opinion is not based on any charts, graphs, or opinions of academia.:munchin
Holly
Holly
craigepo
04-02-2011, 10:59
Thanks jackass for jacking up all the hard work and sacrifice that every service member has put in over there.
The Pastor didn't "jack up" anything. He burned a Koran. Thereafter, half a world away, adherents of the Islamic faith began killing innocent people to protest the book burning.
Letting evil slumber does not make it go away. It only ensures that it survives, well-rested, for the next generation to deal with.
Scimitar
04-02-2011, 11:15
My $00.2
The Pastor's a moron
We only have one hope with the non-pluralistic Muslim population, work with their limited world view until we can slowly win them over to change. That will take generations, until then we can whine about reality or work with it.
Unfair is unfair, but lets do what we can with what we got, and what we don't have is a pluralistic culture over there. facts are facts.
S
......, and what we don't have is a pluralistic culture over there. facts are facts.
S
Facts are facts - that culture wants to make our culture into that culture.
Convert, die or pay - or maybe die after you pay if someone gets their blood worked up.
Paying attention in Egypt? Those liberal reformers/protesters? Already being thrown under the bus by the hard liners. September will be real interesting.
So are you saying we should not do anything that POs Muslims?
Brown may be a moron but, if that is all it takes to stir them up to kill and behead innocens that had nothing to do with it, we ought to be asking ourselves what we are doing there. If they are that fragile, then the minute we pull out, and eventually we will, they are going to implode.
Pete, it is their way or the highway and no compromise is possible. Hopefully the leadership of this country will realize that making friends with a rattlesnake is impossible.
Brown may be a moron but, if that is all it takes to stir them up to kill and behead innocens that had nothing to do with it, we ought to be asking ourselves what we are doing there. If they are that fragile, then the minute we pull out, and eventually we will, they are going to implode.
:(:(:(
Indeed Sir.
Holly
Old beliefs die hard...even when demonstrably false.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/02/us/politics/02burn.html?_r=1&src=ISMR_AP_LO_MST_FB
Richard :munchin
Funny... I don't see the Pastor as news.......
This is news..;)
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110402/ap_on_re_as/as_afghanistan
Good Guys 3 Bad Guys 0
Marauder06
04-02-2011, 14:05
The pastor is a U.S. citizen, in the U.S., exercising his rights under our Constitution. There are two groups to blame here- the people who perpetrated the violence, and those who directed it.
Never gonna bring them into the 20th century. Why bother.
The Pastor is a self aggrandizing asshat, as is Karzai for stirring the flames. If Jones felt his faith required burning a Koran fine, he could have done it in privacy with no media. He hasn't broken any US laws, nor is he responsible for the barbarism of the insurgents, but Karma isn't protected by the constitution.
The insurgents in Afghanistan try to kill NATO forces at every opportunity and use the locals as shields whether or not some extremist's gesture stirs up the locals. It the entire Afghan populace felt as stipulated, instead of 20 casualties, the entire NATO force in country would be in dire straights real fast. This is a tough situation, and good Americans are paying the price in blood for our freedom over there. America has a national interest in denying Afghanistan to our enemies as a safe haven for future attacks on our homeland, which is the only reason we are there. This serves as yet another humbling reminder our freedom isn't free.
Surgicalcric
04-02-2011, 15:35
Excuses, excuses...
Those who died did not do so because the pastor burned the Quran, though that will be the reason given by both the enemy and the press, but because the savages we are fighting wanted them dead, like they want the rest of us. They would have done the same had the book not been burned...
That said, the pastor is an idiot and should be throat punched.
Crip
Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you’d have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion. - S Weinberg
Morality is doing what's right, regardless of what you are told. A lot of religious morality is doing what you are told, no matter whether or not it is right. -JA Thomson
All natural institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish {Islamic}, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit. - Thomas Paine
Man is the religious animal. He is the only religious animal. He is the only animal that has the True Religion, several of them. He is the only animal that loves his neighbor as himself and cuts his throat, if his theology isn’t straight. He has made a graveyard of the globe in trying his honest best to smooth his brother’s path to happiness and heaven. - Mark Twain
It has all been said before; maybe somebody burned those books, too, and the message has been lost. Sad.
And so it goes...
Richard :munchin
Buffalobob
04-02-2011, 16:34
I have a low tolerance for cowardice. If Terry Jones believes strongly the things he talks about then he should go to Afghanistan and burn it right in the middle of Kabul. But like most people who spend their lives running their mouth he will not go and risk his own. Instead he will put our children and our friends children in harms way and then stand and pray loudly on the street corner so that all may hear how pious he is.
Mustang Man
04-02-2011, 16:40
Those protesters need to understand that the actions of a intolerant pastor doesn't represent the ideals of a whole nation.
I guess it wouldn't make a diffrence anyway. They still would have killed innocent people that had nothing to do with that POS pastor. Just as Crip stated, they are using what the pastor did as an excuse to justify their own actions.
That said, the pastor is an idiot and should be throat punched.
Crip
Crip,
Am confused, honestly.:confused:
Can you please explain without giving up any OPSEC/PERSEC?
Thank you,
Holly
Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you’d have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion. - SW
Richard :munchin
I'm surprised that the good Doctor (Theoretical Physics) bothers to get out of bed at all: "The more the universe seems comprehensible, the more it seems pointless." ;)
Pat
I have a low tolerance for cowardice. If Terry Jones believes strongly the things he talks about then he should go to Afghanistan and burn it right in the middle of Kabul. But like most people who spend their lives running their mouth he will not go and risk his own. Instead he will put our children and our friends children in harms way and then stand and pray loudly on the street corner so that all may hear how pious he is.
Amen!
I wish someone would start a mass Koran burning. Like hands across America. Let the world see them for what they really are. Sub Human Cowards.
We can debate the merits or stupidity of the koran burning at length, it doesn't really matter if it was a good idea or not. No more than it matters if the Danish cartoons were a good idea.
If someone burned a bible in Kathmandu and there were mass riots of baptists across the southern US that resulted in mass death and destruction... everyone would be talking about the irrational christians on a rampage. No one on CNN would spare two fucking words for the idiot in Kathmandu. Likewise if a bra burning in Woodstock led to every Victorias Secret model killing a puppy.
I'm tired of talking about all of the Kathmandu bible burners of the world as if they were the root of the problem, and getting more tired of every attempt to place blame where it belongs as "islamaphobic".
Originally quoted by kgoerz:
I wish someone would start a mass Koran burning. Like hands across America. Let the world see them for what they really are. Sub Human Cowards.
This idea actually has some merit. I think the majority of us feel that one day the next big, world-wide war will be the Muslims against all of the non-believing infidels (that would be ya'll and me). The Quran basically calls for it to happen by exhorting all muslims to convert all non-believers and if the non-believers do not convert then they are to destroy all non-believing infidels. Now, I know that this infidel is not going to convert and I doubt that even a small majority of the rest of the remaining infidels will willingly convert, so a battle seems unavoidable, if not inevitable.
So, maybe a unilateral first-strike is in order. Prepare the military by consolidating their positions, issue, minimally, 30 times the normal basic load and we will burn every Quran on every bookstore shelf in the free world. Once their blood gets to boiling and they go on the rampage just smoke them until they are non-existent. Shoot them, carpet bomb them, everything short of nuking them and if necessary, nuke them. The Israelis will certainly help to get rid of the biggest thorn in their side. This seems to be the only way to deal with this kind of problem.
Do not forget the caught-on-television reaction to the attack of the World Trade Center by what seemd to be many a muslim across the world. They cheered and rejoiced. The reaction of most Americans to the stupid, criminal and muderous acts of a few U.S. soldiers is to throw their sorry, inbred asses into jail for the rest of their lives. We do not cheer nor condone those acts and we certainly do not rejoice.
For the past 60 or so years the Israelis have had to live with the fact that a large group of people, who not only happen to live next door to them, but also among them, want to wipe their people and nation off of the face of the earth. The U.S. is just starting to get a taste of that.
Granted, this is a massive simplification of the situation and I would prefer that everyone involved just got over it all and lived their lives without being dickheads. But, when religion gets involved wierd things begin to happen and people lose their minds.
Do not get me wrong. I have many Muslim friends and I am probably a bit more familiar with Islam than the average guy walking on the street. I have studied Islam and the Muslim religion through and for the military, in college courses and I actually own a copy of the Quran that I have read through at least 3 or 4 times cover to cover. There are many things about Islam and the Quran that I admire, but there are many more things about Islam and the Quran that I just have to shake my head about and say WTF!!!!
In summary, if it is going to happen anyway, let's just get it done and over with before it is too late...
This idea actually has some merit. I think the majority of us feel that one day the next big, world-wide war will be the Muslims against all of the non-believing infidels (that would be ya'll and me).
With all due respect to all that is encompassed by ya'll and me, I don't think the majority of us, us being US citizens, believe anything of this sort. I'd like to think most folks think Pastor Jones and those Westboro turds are no more the global face of Christianity than Islamist insurgents we face in AQ, Iraq, and Afghanistan represent the desires of each and every one of the billion plus Muslims in the world. News like we got today is a gut punch. I am grateful we have brave folks in harms way over there paying the price of freedom. It's a tough world, and wolves like AQ, and the Islamists , we likely just have to kill, for our safety, so be it, doom on them.
However, I'd also like to think as difficult and frustrating as these times may be, we cannot afford to lose our discipline and composure, and get caught up in what Stephen Pressfield so eloquently describes as "possession". Before we fall into the trap of confusing terrorists and insurgents with a global holy war, if you asked most Americans what is the example of true evil, how many would respond by naming a single regime? A regime which was democratically elected, and whose people as modern and educated as any of their time, allowed themseles to take counsel of their fears and began throwing out labels like "Sub Human", this is a slippery slope, and it is slippery with bloodshed unworthy of sheepdogs. First this regime turned on their own citizens, then they plunged the whole world into a war. The notion "these people" specifically Muslims are as a whole complicit in the acts of their own wolves, and thus holistically culturally inferior, to the point it can be rationalized " nuke em till they glow, and shoot them in the dark" is both singularly dull, and unworthy of our legacy as Americans. We are the children, grandchildren, and great grandchildren of the people that took on this most evil regime of "Supermen" and beat the ever living tar out of it. This is a different type of war and a different type of enemy, we need to evolve and adapt to meet this threat, and we will, without forgetting who we are, the ten-fold greater threat our ancestors overcame, and with full cognizance of the dangers of "possession".
I've read this thread with interest and agree with a lot that's been said. However, my not-so-easy mission just got that much more difficult because of this idiot preacher. I'm among the Afghan's everyday trying to win the skeptical elders over to our side. I train and work side by side with the ANA everyday. To these guys, religion isn't just a go to church on Sunday kind of thing. It's a daily, hourly, by the minute way of life. The Quaran isn't just a book to the people that surround me, it's a holy document. Much more so than most Christians hold the Bible. What the preacher did has serious implications to our daily lives whether he cares or not. If I ever see him I'm going to punch him square in the mouth for all the extra "patching up relations" we have to do now. Just my .02.
incarcerated
04-02-2011, 23:12
Two world-views are in conflict here:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-04-03/obama-calls-for-tolerance-in-afghanistan-after-un-mission-attack-protests.html
Obama Calls for Tolerance in Afghanistan After UN Mission Attack, Protests
By Eltaf Najafizada and Paul Tighe
Apr 2, 2011 6:21 PM PT
President Barack Obama called for tolerance in Afghanistan after the burning of a Koran in the U.S. prompted an attack that killed seven United Nations workers and sparked violent anti-U.S. protests in the country.
“Now is a time to draw upon the common humanity we that share,” Obama said in a statement yesterday issued by the White House in Washington. “The desecration of any holy text, including the Koran, is an act of extreme intolerance and bigotry. However, to attack and kill innocent people in response is outrageous.” ....
“No religion tolerates the slaughter and beheading of innocent people, and there is no justification for such a dishonorable and deplorable act,” Obama said about the deaths of the UN workers....
....Protesters shouted “Death to America” as they spread from the center of Kandahar, Zalmai Ayoubi, a spokesman for the Kandahar province, said by phone yesterday....
Ghulam Yahya Toryalai, a 27-year-old shopkeeper, said he joined the protests to show his anger over the burning.
“A bloody person by the name of Jones insulted our most holy book,” Toryalai said. “He should have been hanged by someone.”....
.......“Now is a time to draw upon the common humanity we that share,” Obama said in a statement yesterday issued by the White House in Washington. “The desecration of any holy text, including the Koran, is an act of extreme intolerance and bigotry. However, to attack and kill innocent people in response is outrageous.” .... ............
Maybe the Prez needs to talk with the Military leadership of the USofA. The Military seems to have no problem burning Bibles.
And the Muslims cheered when we did it.
Edited to add the link for those who don't believe it.
http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/05/20/us.military.bibles.burned/
"......Troops at posts in war zones are required to burn their trash, Wright said.........." One man's trash is another man's Holy Book.
greenberetTFS
04-03-2011, 06:42
Maybe the Prez needs to talk with the Military leadership of the USofA. The Military seems to have no problem burning Bibles.
And the Muslims cheered when we did it.
Excellent point Pete..............;)
Big Teddy :munchin
I've read this thread with interest and agree with a lot that's been said. However, my not-so-easy mission just got that much more difficult because of this idiot preacher. I'm among the Afghan's everyday trying to win the skeptical elders over to our side. I train and work side by side with the ANA everyday. To these guys, religion isn't just a go to church on Sunday kind of thing. It's a daily, hourly, by the minute way of life. The Quaran isn't just a book to the people that surround me, it's a holy document. Much more so than most Christians hold the Bible. What the preacher did has serious implications to our daily lives whether he cares or not. If I ever see him I'm going to punch him square in the mouth for all the extra "patching up relations" we have to do now. Just my .02.
Very well said.
Just because the preacher CAN do something doesn't mean the preacher SHOULD do something (like burning Korans as expression of First Amendment rights). He delayed the original burning because of the projected impact as explained to him (i.e. this very thing).
I wonder why he went through with it now, other than the fact he's an idiot.
Kind of like yelling out Fire in a crowded theater. If someone gets trampled you can get charged.
Convert now - avoid the rush.
http://www.thecuttingedgenews.com/index.php?article=51662&pageid=17&pagename=News
".........Thousands of Christians have been forced to flee their homes in Western Ethiopia after Muslim extremists set alight approximately 50 churches and dozens of Christian homes. ............"
"........One of those areas is Besheno where, on November 9, all the Christians in the city woke up to find notes on their doors warning them to convert to Islam, leave the city or face death............."
I wonder what the chances were, considering there were muslims that died on 9/11, that at least one of them had a Quran tucked away in their desk at one of the WTCs, and if this is the case, then a Quran was already burned long ago.
On a different note, if the muslim community holds the Quran in such high regard, if we place a copy on airliners, will the extremists think twice before attempting to bring one down?
Team Sergeant
04-03-2011, 08:20
I've read this thread with interest and agree with a lot that's been said. However, my not-so-easy mission just got that much more difficult because of this idiot preacher. I'm among the Afghan's everyday trying to win the skeptical elders over to our side. I train and work side by side with the ANA everyday. To these guys, religion isn't just a go to church on Sunday kind of thing. It's a daily, hourly, by the minute way of life. The Quaran isn't just a book to the people that surround me, it's a holy document. Much more so than most Christians hold the Bible. What the preacher did has serious implications to our daily lives whether he cares or not. If I ever see him I'm going to punch him square in the mouth for all the extra "patching up relations" we have to do now. Just my .02.
Yes, and for the reasons you cite some of us believe it's actually not a religion but an extremely dangerous ideology. How many time must it be demonstrated/exposed that it is such before we sit up and take notice?
I also think the pastor stupid, but then again I've never met an intelligent "man of the cloth". As was said the pastor was merely exercising his constitutional freedoms and we're ready to inflict pain on an American for doing something that is protected by the Constitution of the United States? Think.
Why are we as Americans getting upset over the fact that someone is exercising his constitutional freedoms??
This is a battle of ideologies, has been for centuries. Freemen will not "convert" nor will the extremists convert us.
When we start giving up "Our" (Western) Freedoms to appease islam or the muslims then I would say that our freedoms are no longer worth fighting for....
Same shit different day, the battle continues.
Surgicalcric
04-03-2011, 08:54
Crip,
Am confused, honestly.:confused:
Can you please explain without giving up any OPSEC/PERSEC?
Thank you,
Holly
Just because the preacher CAN do something doesn't mean the preacher SHOULD do something (like burning Korans as expression of First Amendment rights)...
Holly:
I refer you to RTK's comments.
Furthermore, there is a difference between expressing ones First Amendment rights and being a sensationalist. I dont believe we should bow to anyone least not to Islam...but there is nothing to be gained by being an asshat either.
Crip
craigepo
04-03-2011, 09:28
If I ever see him I'm going to punch him square in the mouth for all the extra "patching up relations" we have to do now. Just my .02.
1. What happens if you meet the people who stole rifles and shot up innocent people?
2. After you get done punching the preacher, what will be your argument against his position?
When did the Western world become so afraid of Islam that we are afraid to call a spade a spade? If Person A performs a lawful action, and Person B's response is murder, rape, arson, or any other immoral act(s), why should we denigrate Person A, and ignore Person B? Is this indirectly condoning/allowing Person B's reaction?
It is regrettable that the Preacher's actions have made your job tougher. Policemen make my job tougher. Every time they arrest someone, I wind up working harder, because I have to decide the case. However, this is the price we pay to have some semblance of a just, safe society. If the cops ignore the criminals, my life will be easier, but the criminals' neighbors/victims will be much worse off.
In my humble opinion, all the Pastor did was cause a bunch of criminals to point a light upon themselves, allowing the world to see just how evil they are. If they are evil because of their religion, we need to know.
I sincerely regret that our military's mission has been made just that much more difficult by the actions of one idiotic preacher. In my day it was usually the liberal media morons trying to get a big scoop that would put our lives in danger.
Pastor Jones, one day, announced that he would burn a Quran and then, supposedly, was talked out of it by U.S. representatives that explained to him the circumstances to be faced by the U.S. military if the burning occurred. He acquiesced and after a period of time went ahead and did it anyway, filmed it and posted it on the internet. In my opinion, he knew exactly what he was doing and what the results would be. He is being his own agent provocateur.
He wants to flame Muslim anger towards the U.S., because he probably has it in his mind that this will all escalate and spiral into a war between Muslims and non-Muslims and he is putting his money on the non-Muslims.
I do not agree with what Pastor Jones did in any way, shape or form. I would never think of doing it because I would not disrespect someone's beliefs in such a manner and secondly, because it would obviously put our troops in further un-warranted peril. Unfortunately his right to do so is protected by his "freedom of speech", but like "Pete" suggested, Pastor Jones doing so is not too dissimilar from yelling "Fire!" in a crowded movie theatre. He knew what the result would be, so maybe there is a means by which to punish him within the laws of this country.
As far as "akv" not thinking that there is a good possibility that the next world-wide war will be between Muslims and non-believers, the only thing that I can say is "Wake up!"
"Viking" was right when he said,
To these guys, religion isn't just a go to church on Sunday kind of thing. It's a daily, hourly, by the minute way of life. The Quaran isn't just a book to the people that surround me, it's a holy document. Much more so than most Christians hold the Bible.
Read the Quran and you will see passages that direct the reader on everything from the first thing you do from the moment that you awaken in the morning to wiping your own arse. It is much more invasive into an individual's life than the Bible could ever hope to be. And if you cannot find a passage that tells you what to do in any specific instance, you need only go to the nearest Imam and he will interpret a passge for you that he says pertains to your problem. The one passage that has always stuck in my mind is the one that states that "all non-believers shall be made believers and if this does not come to pass, then they should be killed". (I am sorry that I am paraphrasing here. I wish that I could quote the actual passgae and phrasing, but my Quran is at the bottom of one of the many boxes in the spare bedroom waiting for moving).
This is not to say that the religions of the western world have never done pretty much the same thing and maybe are still doing it to a lesser degree. The Crusades and the Spanish Conquistadors were good examples. The historical slogan for the conquisatdors was, "God, Gold and Glory". But at least the conquistadors had two stated hobbies other than the religios aspect of their actions; Money and Fame. The radical Muslims just claim religious justification for killing anyone who does not believe and go on their merry way.
I sincerely hope that it does not come to an "us vs. them" battle, but even my, self-proclaimed, "Muslim-lite" friends think that it is almost inevitable.
Holly:
I refer you to RTK's comments.
Furthermore, there is a difference between expressing ones First Amendment rights and being a sensationalist. I dont believe we should bow to anyone least not to Islam...but there is nothing to be gained by being an asshat either.
Crip
Crip,
Thank you for the response, as it does shed light on your post, for me.
Am in agreement that sensationalism, is not a good thing.
However, if it were not sensationalized, then we would not be talking about it, and "they" would not know about it, hence they would believe that "we" as Americans agreed to bow to them...out of fear?
Just my small little opinion.....which is always learning new things.:o
Holly
Reid: Probe of Quran Burning Considered
Well, it appears some in congress agree with some of the posters here. Islam is a protected religion it would appear.
http://www.newsmax.com/InsideCover/HarryReid-QuranBurning-Afghanistan-/2011/04/03/id/391567
"........Sen. Lindsey Graham said Congress might need to explore the need to limit some forms of freedom of speech, in light of Tennessee pastor Terry Jones’ Quran burning, and how such actions result in enabling U.S. enemies............"
So where do we draw the line on what is protected? It's clear the Flag is fair game. Any who get POed when it is burned are told to get a thicker skin. The Bible and Christian items are fair game - Piss Christ. But if it POs Muslims it's a no-no? Infidels PO Muslims - so convert now - avoid the rush. Once Islam becomes the law of the land there will be long lines down at the corner mosque of those converting.
So where do we draw the line on what is protected?
All we need to do to get equal protection is run out and cause death and destruction anytime some person or group defaces any of our sacred items.
As far as "akv" not thinking that there is a good possibility that the next world-wide war will be between Muslims and non-believers, the only thing that I can say is "Wake up!"
It is easy for us to have different opinions as far away from the frontlines as San Francisco or rural Pennsylvania. These notions of absolutes, all Muslims are this unified mindless evil collective, we must just nuke from orbit, doesn't seem to mesh with feedback we are getting from our troops on the ground, the BTDT types who have been and are serving in the Middle East with direct experience. Consider sources as diverse and respected as, Major Gant, CMM Mike Hall, SGM Billy Waugh, not to mention those members of this BB who have served or are currently serving in the region. The messages we are getting is its a tough mission, a different culture and mindset. The people in this part of the world are survivors, some good some bad, and that is their reality. We have returning vets talking about their sympathy for Iraqi or Afghan women, and kids, sure the insurgents are barbaric. We have Americans living among Afghans and Iraqui Muslims, working with them, training and fighting alongside local security forces. We hear about the corruption and challenges. We are not hearing that Iraquis or Afghans taken as a whole are evil, and most are Muslims.
It's a simple question, do the bulk of these thousands of Americans who have direct recent experience living among Muslims abroad in war feel they are all the same and incorrigible? Should we simply pull out and nuke every Muslim man woman and child because they are all just evil? Or do they feel it's brutal over there, these people are survivors, on the whole just like people anywhere some good, some bad, most in between, if we want to win them over for our own security, we better prove we are stronger than the wolves who prey on them. We are not hearing such absolutes or mass condemnations from accounts of those in harm's way, or those who have served tours in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Though as BuffaloBob sagely noted, some idiot, coward, pastor, who doesn't have the stones to fly to Kabaul to burn his Korans, a guy whose biggest daily risk is wearing mismatched socks, is pounding away about holy war and the evils of Islam from his couch in Florida.
You talk of wakeup calls, there are certainly dangers from the Islamists to us all. My wake up call to your line of thinking is when I hear similar thoughts from the likes of Viking or blue02hd, men who are on the front lines living and working alongside Muslims, read their posts very carefully, their views on the people over there and Islam carry much more weight in my book than some guy in Florida trying to get air time.
"........Sen. Lindsey Graham said Congress might need to explore the need to limit some forms of freedom of speech, in light of Tennessee pastor Terry Jones’ Quran burning, and how such actions result in enabling U.S. enemies............"
Senator Graham may have other reasons for limiting free speech, having been in the press himself:
Is Lindsey Graham gay? Seven Minutes in Gay Hell: Is Lindsey Graham in S.C.'s airtight closet? (http://www.charlestoncitypaper.com/charleston/is-lindsey-graham-gay/Content?oid=1111370)
Would anyone seriously consider changing the freedoms we have under our constitution because a party who doesn't give a rat's ass about our constitution got annoyed? If that happens, they've won already. Why are we fighting terrorism? Might as well roll over and show our bellies. :( That idiot Graham should be impeached, or recalled or whatever it is they do to idiots in government.
Susan
.........you talk of wakeup calls, there are certainly dangers from the Islamists to us all..................
So should Islam be protected by law in the US?
Should it be a hate crime to deface a Koran in America?
Should all Americans (who are not Muslim) have to watch their step and avoid POing Muslims? Can I have a pig pickin' in my back yard if my neighbor is a Muslim? If he tells me he's offended I'm having pork and I tell him to piss off did I just commit a hate crime?
How far should we go? Where do we draw the line? Should a line be drawn?
Can Islam live in peace with western values?
Lets see how Egypt turns out in September. Lets see how well the Coptics and secularists fare in the elections.
Me? I believe what they say. They say they aren't here to live in peace with the west but to convert it to Islam.
I sincerely regret that our military mission has been made just that much more difficult by the actions of one idiotic preacher. In my day it was usually the liberal media morons trying to get a big scoop that would put our lives in danger.
Pastor Jones, one day, announced that he would burn a Quran and then, supposedly, was talked out of it by U.S. representatives that explained to him the circumstances to be faced by the U.S. military if the burning occurred. He acquiesced and after a period of time went ahead and did it anyway, filmed it and posted it on the internet. In my opinion, he knew exactly what he was doing and what the results would be. He is being his own agent provocateur.
He wants to flame Muslim anger towards the U.S., because he probably has it in his mind that this will all escalate and spiral into a war between Muslims and non-Muslims and he is putting his money on the non-Muslims.
I do not agree with what Pastor Jones did in any way, shape or form. I would never think of doing it because I would not disrespect someone's beliefs in such a manner and secondly, because it would obviously put our troops in further un-warranted peril. Unfortunately his right to do so is protected by his "freedom of speech", but like "Pete" suggested, Pastor Jones doing so is not too dissimilar from yelling "Fire!" in a crowded movie theatre. He knew what the result would be, so maybe there is a means by which to punish him within the laws of this country.
As far as "akv" not thinking that there is a good possibility that the next world-wide war will be between Muslims and non-believers, the only thing that I can say is "Wake up!"
"Viking" was right when he said,
Read the Quran and you will see passages that direct the reader on everything from the first thing you do from the moment that you awaken in the morning to wiping your own arse. It is much more invasive into an individual's life than the Bible could ever hope to be. And if you cannot find a passage that tells you what to do in any specific instance, you need only go to the nearest Imam and he will interpret a passge for you that he says pertains to your problem. The one passage that has always stuck in my mind is the one that states that "all non-believers shall be made believers and if this does not come to pass, then they should be killed". (I am sorry that I am paraphrasing here. I wish that I could quote the actual passgae and phrasing, but my Quran is at the bottom of one of the many boxes in the spare bedroom waiting for moving).
This is not to say that the religions of the western world have never done pretty much the same thing and maybe are still doing it to a lesser degree. The Crusades and the Spanish Conquistadors were good examples. The historical slogan for the conquisatdors was, "God, Gold and Glory". But at least the conquistadors had two stated hobbies other than the religios aspect of their actions; Money and Fame. The radical Muslims just claim religious justification for killing anyone who does not believe and go on their merry way.
I sincerely hope that it does not come to an "us vs. them" battle, but even my, self-proclaimed, "Muslim-lite" friends think that it is almost inevitable.
Ron Hubbard said it best. The esiest way to get rich and powerful. Invent a new religion. So he invented one.
Religion is about controlling the masses. Thats all it has ever been about.
Lets make it easy for both Muslim and Non-Moslum's........
Select which countries are Muslim and which are non. Then give everyone 30 days to pack up and move to your appropriate religious area. Close the door and let them have their way with each other. Do not broadcast any thing that has a religious nature as not to incite religious dissent/protest/hate in the .
Pete,
Sir, here are my thoughts on your questions.
So should Islam be protected by law in the US?
No more or no less than any other faith, under our freedom of religion, as long their activities are lawful.
Should it be a hate crime to deface a Koran in America?
No, Pastor Jones was well within his constitutional rights.
Should all Americans (who are not Muslim) have to watch their step and avoid POing Muslims? Can I have a pig pickin' in my back yard if my neighbor is a Muslim?
Absolutely not, there should be no special protected religious class under our laws. On your property you should be free to do anything legal. If Muslims are offended by a BBQ in your backyard, one they are likely missing out on some good pulled pork, two they need to get over themselves and mind their own business, or move to another house. It's a free country.
If he tells me he's offended I'm having pork and I tell him to piss off did I just commit a hate crime?
Not in my book, his rights do not supercede yours.
How far should we go? Where do we draw the line? Should a line be drawn?
To me the line is violence, coercion, or breaking the law, or proof someone is planning to do such things. Though I do think we should push for assimilation in schools as is our tradition, over the flawed European multiculturalism model.
Can Islam live in peace with western values?
I also feel we should watch Turkey closely, because if we ever get into it on a large scale with an Islamic foe, IMO they are the only ones who historically and potentially have their act together enought to be a real threat. However, Turkey has been a modern secular democracy for near 90 years now, is a NATO ally, and while not perfect, there seems to be decades of proof a country with 77 million Muslims can peacefully coexist with western values as a modern developed secular democracy, with separation of church and state, so in short, Yes, and we have proof.
Lets see how Egypt turns out in September. Lets see how well the Coptics and secularists fare in the elections.
Agreed, though I'm more worried about the Iranians destabilizing the already corrupt regime in Saudi which is ripe to fall, then things get real sketchy IMO.
...........I also feel we should watch Turkey closely, because if we ever get into it on a large scale with an Islamic foe, IMO they are the only ones who historically and potentially have their act together enought to be a real threat. However, Turkey has been a modern secular democracy for near 90 years now, is a NATO ally, and while not perfect, there seems to be decades of proof a country with 77 million Muslims can peacefully coexist with western values as a modern developed secular democracy, with separation of church and state, so in short, Yes, and we have proof........................
I see you've not been reading the posts we've been making about the goings on in Turkey the last 8 years or so. The modern, developed secular democracy protected by the military has fallen by the wayside the last couple of election cycles.
".....is a NATO ally......." Are we sure of that anymore?
Whenever talks turn to "secular" Turkey it's always good to reread this
http://www.theatlanticright.com/2009/09/18/turkey-moves-away-from-democracy/
Surgicalcric
04-03-2011, 14:43
... they would believe that "we" as Americans agreed to bow to them...out of fear?
You cant be seriously stating that by not burning their holy book we are bowing to Islamists?
If so I suppose we are bowing to a lot of religions.
Crip
I see you've not been reading the posts we've been making about the goings on in Turkey the last 8 years or so. The modern, developed secular democracy protected by the military has fallen by the wayside the last couple of election cycles. ".....is a NATO ally......." Are we sure of that anymore? Whenever talks turn to "secular" Turkey it's always good to reread this
Sir, I have been reading the posts, and I have visited Turkey within the past few years. I agree the right wing tendencies are troubling and bear watching. However, the question was can Islam live in peace with Western values, the Turks have for quite some time now, so I believe yes this has been done. As for NATO, it seems our European allies lost the will to defend themselves some time ago, except for the Turks who as you know now have the largest army in Europe. If the Turks go Islamist as feared, we have a real problem since they are the only competent regime in the Islamic world. In my experience, the easiest way to offend in Istanbul is to suggest they aren't European or secular, they take immense pride in both.
Sir, I have been reading the posts, and I have visited Turkey within the past few years. I agree the right wing tendencies are troubling and bear watching. However, the question was can Islam live in peace with Western values, the Turks have for quite some time now, so I believe yes this has been done. As for NATO, it seems our European allies lost the will to defend themselves some time ago, except for the Turks who as you know now have the largest army in Europe. If the Turks go Islamist as feared, we have a real problem since they are the only competent regime in the Islamic world. In my experience, the easiest way to offend in Istanbul is to suggest they aren't European or secular, they take immense pride in both.
Time will tell. Wearing rose colored glasses does not a secular state make.
What is the trend of Turkey? Have the last couple of elections strengthened the secular nation or have they been a cementing of the religious faction? Does the military still have the power to step in and "fix" things? On that it's a clear "No".
You did see the graduation pictures of the college in Egypt I linked in one of the past threads? The shift from western dress to conservative Muslim dress for the women?
Political Islam has been dragging "western/modern" Islamic nations to Sharia step by step. It's a slow process but it is happening.
The last 30 years has seen a rise in Militant Islam - protest at the drop of a Koran - so to say.
In the mean time we're told "Oh, they are really not like that. They want to live in peace with all other religions. If we just didn't make them mad things would be OK."
The election is set for September in Egypt. We'll see who gets how many seats and then start keeping and eye on what the new government does. We'll see if it's open season on the Christians or they get equal rights. Want to bet on which way that one goes?
Name a Muslim majority nation that gives other religions equal protection under the law? Best Richard could do was Sebia. If Muslims gain a majority in a given country will they change it to Sharia Law? Yes. Why do I say that? Because they say it.
incarcerated
04-03-2011, 15:33
Sir, I have been reading the posts, and I have visited Turkey within the past few years. I agree the right wing tendencies are troubling and bear watching. However, the question was can Islam live in peace with Western values, the Turks have for quite some time now, so I believe yes this has been done. As for NATO, it seems our European allies lost the will to defend themselves some time ago, except for the Turks who as you know now have the largest army in Europe. If the Turks go Islamist as feared, we have a real problem since they are the only competent regime in the Islamic world. In my experience, the easiest way to offend in Istanbul is to suggest they aren't European or secular, they take immense pride in both.
IMO, the status of Turkey as a stabile pro-Western NATO ally is in question. One could argue the case that Turkey is an example of Islam’s failure to coexist with the West and its intolerance towards all things Western.
http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32695
Originally posted by akv:
It is easy for us to have different opinions as far away from the frontlines as San Francisco or rural Pennsylvania. These notions of absolutes, all Muslims are this unified mindless evil collective, we must just nuke from orbit, doesn't seem to mesh with feedback we are getting from our troops on the ground, the BTDT types who have been and are serving in the Middle East with direct experience. Consider sources as diverse and respected as, Major Gant, CMM Mike Hall, SGM Billy Waugh, not to mention those members of this BB who have served or are currently serving in the region. The messages we are getting is its a tough mission, a different culture and mindset. The people in this part of the world are survivors, some good some bad, and that is their reality. We have returning vets talking about their sympathy for Iraqi or Afghan women, and kids, sure the insurgents are barbaric. We have Americans living among Afghans and Iraqui Muslims, working with them, training and fighting alongside local security forces. We hear about the corruption and challenges. We are not hearing that Iraquis or Afghans taken as a whole are evil, and most are Muslims.
Well... I have not spent my entire life in rural Pennsylvania and I have spent my more than fair share of time down range also doing very much the same things that you stated above. Simply replace all mention of Iraq, Afghanistan, and Muslim with El Salvador, Honduras, Columbia, etc. and there really is not much difference except for the religious aspect. And what makes you think that I have not spent my time in the Middle East?
Originally posted by akv:
Should we simply pull out and nuke every Muslim man woman and child because they are all just evil?
No, I do not think so and never said anything like that. That came from you.
Originally posted by Tress:
So, maybe a unilateral first-strike is in order. Prepare the military by consolidating their positions, issue, minimally, 30 times the normal basic load and we will burn every Quran on every bookstore shelf in the free world. Once their blood gets to boiling and they go on the rampage just smoke them until they are non-existent. Shoot them, carpet bomb them, everything short of nuking them and if necessary, nuke them.
Maybe I was not descriptive enough in the above passage for you to understand... "Consolidation of positions" was meant for our troops to consolidate into defensive positions to prepare for the possible onslaught and not leave squads out in the boondocks with their asses hanging in the breeze.
"Once their blood gets to boiling and they go on the rampage just smoke them until they are non-existent." That would be in reference to those whose blood boils over and then go on a rampage against those defensive positions and yes, you smoke them. Those that elect not to rampage are safe because they did not go crazy over a silly book burning and did not move into the line of fire. And let me be more descriptive about "rampaging". That would be those buttheads that "rampage" and attack said "defensive positions".
"everything short of nuking them", I initially stated my preference against nuking them. Besides, the fallout will definitely affect trout streams that I have yet to fish.
Am I to assume that you missed this part of my post?
Originally posted by Tress:
Granted, this is a massive simplification of the situation and I would prefer that everyone involved just got over it all and lived their lives without being dickheads. But, when religion gets involved wierd things begin to happen and people lose their minds.
I though that the entire tenor of my posts has been that RELIGION is getting in the way of everyday people, here and there, living their lives without having to worry about being shot at, killed or even shredded because of an IED or suicide bomber. I am sorry if I did not make that more clear. I did not want to come out and outright blame religion because some people may take offense to that.
I tried to think if the U.S. has ever been in a similar situation before during wartime and initially could not think of one until it popped into my head that to some degree, WWII was somewhat similar. Though not really a religion and actually more of an ideology, the Bushido code was twisted in such a way by Japanese leaders to resemble a religious fanaticism of sorts. Because of this suicide attacks, on foot or by air, became common enough that they forced the Allies into rethinking their invasion plans of the Japanese home islands. Instead of suffering thousands of Allied casualties trying to invade they decided to, whoops!, nuke them.
A similar thing also happened in Germany. Naziism was an ideology that had visions of being a religion and was actually seen as being a religion by some of its leaders. With the SS being given orders to fight to the last man, I assume that many U.S. troops were not especially happy with the possible outcome. Luckily, this did not happen and the SS, for the most part, saw the writing on the wall and went home.
Again I will state, I do not want an "us vs. them" battle. I would very much prefer that everyone leave everyone else alone to live their lives as they see fit without causing harm to others. And just so you know, I have never owned anything that said "Nuke them 'til they glow.
Name a Muslim majority nation that gives other religions equal protection under the law? Best Richard could do was Sebia. If Muslims gain a majority in a given country will they change it to Sharia Law? Yes. Why do I say that? Because they say it.
Serbia, and look what happened when the terrorist muslim Albanians invaded Kosovo. The world backed the terrorists. We'll see how well that plays out in the next 10 years. Sarajevo already has a mosque on every street corner in town, what did we really accomplish in Bosnia when we interrupted the warring factions in 1995? The Former Yugoslavia is still a ticking time bomb of ethnic hatred.
I suspect that the religious extremism is driven by another factor – one fated to get worse. The CIA World Factbook discusses population growth and average population age in the various countries. Islamic countries with radical populations tend to have high growth rates and low average ages. I cannot help thinking that the lack of economic opportunity increases the hold of fanaticism, if only as a refuge against reality.
It may be that we’re in a cycle of deleveraging from high levels of global debt. If that’s true, then global growth will be lackluster for decades – and that means that the pressure on the populations I mentioned will increase. Still worse, their numbers will continue to swell. And, if one looks at global grain supplies, it is interesting that the trend over the years is down – suggesting higher food prices.
My take is that there will, ultimately, be a deadly confrontation. The West, on one side, will be in the throes of a fiscal crunch with aging populations. The Islamic states will have large numbers of desperate youth, eager for any escape – even one framed by hopes for the afterlife.
We are unlikely to conduct a preemptive strike. Honestly, I think we should – but we won’t. In the meantime, we will seek to avoid the horrific conflict that’s coming. I suspect that burning Korans will be outlawed in some ways, freedom of speech not withstanding. And yes, I want to be wrong.
You cant be seriously stating that by not burning their holy book we are bowing to Islamists?
If so I suppose we are bowing to a lot of religions.
Crip
Crip,
No. Was simply questioning their mindset.
Say I have a dinner party once a month, and at the end of it, we ritualistically, burn a Koran. Who knows about it? Only the chosen few who have come to taste my food, and protest a religion who wants to kill all Americans.
That scenario is far different from this thread topic, where a Pastor got the media involved, and made sure it would go viral.
Which one is better? Myself, I do not know. Am always questioning...:munchin
Name a Muslim majority nation that gives other religions equal protection under the law? Best Richard could do was Sebia. If Muslims gain a majority in a given country will they change it to Sharia Law? Yes. Why do I say that? Because they say it.
I would respectfully suggest the country that I have been living in for the past year, Kazakhstan, to fit the bill in regards to a Muslim majority nation that gives other religions equal protection under the law. We have a 25% Christian (mostly Russian) population that can worship as they wish. Orthodox Christmas is actually a national holiday here. The constitution also states that KZ is a secular state and thus no special status is given to Islam.
In fact non tolerance of Islamic radicals is one of the reasons I like it here.
Tress,
If I came across as ignoring or labeling the extent of your service and experiences I apologize, that was not my intent. It's very likely you have seen and had experiences abroad in the service beyond mine. I have no delusions about this. We are often presented with barbaric acts perpetuated in the name of Islam, whether beheadings, honor killings, or their sorts of guerilla tactics, it's tough to swallow, and I believe people if not careful can fall into the trap of projecting the barbarism of the Islamists onto the religion as a whole. I concur with your assesment things get batty when religion gets involved.
My greater point was a belief the best perspective on such situations is not by folks in the CONUS, but folks on the ground. For example, there are a great many Vietnam vets here, they have had direct experiences I have only read about, and we faced a tough ruthless enemy in that war. Yet, I have yet to see an instance of one these vets arguing the Vietnamese people as a whole were evil, or subhuman or deserving of extreme measures. Interestingly in the same manner many vets from the middle east with direct experience have views on Islam quite different from those like that jingoistic pastor in FL. As Richard once observed, at times I believe we have replaced Communism with Islam, as the great all encompassing evil. When the Islamists fail due to their glaring deficiencies just like the communists did, we will have to find something else.
While I erred in implying you were advocating nuking till they glow, etc, that is what I took out of the phrase a "a unilateral first strike" such notions are neither fanciful nor unique in such discussions on this topic, historically at the point one culture proclaims it's superiority to the barbarians, and has the means to enforce these views, very bad things are warming up in the bullpen.
Where we disagree is the hierarchy of threat. I believe while America is pre-occupied with Islamists who we must defeat, we are ignoring the re emergence of the Russians, and the massive population and resource requirements of the Chinese, IMO both more capable and dangerous foes than the Islamists.
greenberetTFS
04-04-2011, 06:44
Lets make it easy for both Muslim and Non-Moslum's........
Select which countries are Muslim and which are non. Then give everyone 30 days to pack up and move to your appropriate religious area. Close the door and let them have their way with each other. Do not broadcast any thing that has a religious nature as not to incite religious dissent/protest/hate in the .
Dam good idea!...........;)
Big Teddy :munchin
To me, this current episode of that globally popular and seemingly never-ending theological soap opera - "As The World Burns" - is, sorrowfully, little more than a continuation of one of the oldest and most ignoble stories of the History of mankind - one group of self-aggrandized cretins provoking another group of self-aggrandized cretins, with many innocent people being harmed. :mad:
Richard :munchin
To me, this current episode of that globally popular and seemingly never-ending theological soap opera - "As The World Burns" - is, sorrowfully, little more than a continuation of one of the oldest and most ignoble stories of the History of mankind - one group of self-aggrandized cretins provoking another group of self-aggrandized cretins, with many innocent people being harmed. :mad:
Richard :munchinStay safe.
How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live. A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property - either as a child, a wife, or a concubine - must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men.
Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities. Thousands become the brave and loyal soldiers of the Queen; all know how to die; but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science - the science against which it had vainly struggled - the civilisation of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilisation of ancient Rome. - Winston Churchill, 1899, The River War
Churchill on Islam over 100 years ago. The more things change the more they stay the same.
SouthernDZ
04-04-2011, 11:47
It would appear we should prepare ourselves for quite a bit more violence.
U.S. pastor says he will put Mohammed 'on trial' next as NATO chief condemns Koran burning for starting riots
By Daily Mail Reporter
Despite clear evidence that his actions have led to multiple murders and widespread violence in the Middle East, controversial Florida pastor Terry Jones has vowed to step up his provocative campaign against Islam.
The radical pastor said that he was considering putting Islamic prophet Mohammed 'on trial' for his next 'day of judgement' publicity stunt.
His last, in which he oversaw the burning of a copy of the Koran after a six-hour mock trial, has been directly responsible for a wave of violence that began last night and has left 30 people dead and more than 150 injured.
The defiant stance has led General Petraeus, the head of NATO forces in Afghanistan, to join international condemnation of pastor Jones.
The General urged Afghans to understand only a small number of people had been disrespectful to the Koran and Islam.
He said: 'We condemn, in particular, the action of an individual in the United States who recently burned the Holy Koran.
'We also offer condolences to the families of all those injured and killed in violence which occurred in the wake of the burning of the Holy Koran.'
The call comes after a third day of violence in Afghanistan saw at least ten deaths, 78 injured and at least 17 arrests as protesters clash with security forces in Kandahar.
There were also reports of attempted suicide attacks on a U.S. military base in Kabul, but these were not directly linked to Mr Jones's actions.
The vilified pastor remains unrepentant about his actions, and has even hinted that he will take his provocative stance further.
He said in an interview: 'It is definitely a consideration to stage a trial on the life of Mohammed in the future.'
Such a move would trigger further violent protests in the Muslim world - even in more moderate Islamic states.
But Mr Jones shows no signs of backing down, refusing to admit the violence is his fault, and apparently proud of his actions.
In an interview at his Dove World Outreach Center, the pastor at least admitted that he was saddened by the Afghan attacks - but added that he would burn the Koran again if given the chance.
He told the New York Times: 'It was intended to stir the pot; if you don’t shake the boat, everyone will stay in their complacency.
'Emotionally, it’s not all that easy. People have tried to make us responsible for the people who are killed. It’s unfair and somewhat damaging.
'
Did our action provoke them? Of course. Is it a provocation that can be justified? Is it a provocation that should lead to death?
'When lawyers provoke me, when banks provoke me, when reporters provoke me, I can’t kill them. That would not fly.'
It is not surprising that Mr Jones should mention lawyers, banks and reporters as his tormentors.
The pastor, whose church membership has dwindled and who is a hate figure in his own community, is also near broke.
A second wave of violence began this morning when demonstrators clashed with security forces.
A statement by the Kandahar governor's office said that 10 protesters had been killed and 78 injured. Seventeen people, including seven armed men, were arrested, the statement said.
Mr Jones told the Times that, in recent weeks, he had received more than 300 death threats via phone and email, and had been told by the FBI that there was a $2.4 million contract on his life.
He said: 'I don’t right now feel personally afraid. But we are armed.'
Mr Jones admitted that he knew the Koran-burning stunt could lead to violence, adding: 'We were worried. We knew it was possible.'
But it clearly did not stop him.
The recent killings, which involved the beheading of two UN guards in the northern city of Mazar-i-Sharif, will not do anything to add to Mr Jones's international popularity.
His March 20 burning stunt received little press in Afghanistan at first. But after President Hamid Karzai condemned the burning of the book and religious leaders called for justice in sermons yesterday, thousands poured into the streets in several cities to protest.
Victim: The first named victim is 53-year-old Norwegian pilot Lt. Col Siri Skare who was working as a UN military advisor in the country
At least eight UN staff and around a dozen locals were murdered after a mob killed the UN guards, stole their weapons and opened fire.
In other attacks a suicide bomber struck Kabul and a violent demonstration rattled the southern city of Kandahar.
Security forces shot rounds into the air in Kandahar to stop a crowd from burning shops and cars bent on destruction while much of the rest of the city was closed.
Reports said 10 people were killed and around 78 were wounded.
Yesterday Mr Jones, who ignored international warnings that his actions would undoubtedly lead to violent reprisals, said the blame laid at the feet of the attackers.
He said: 'We must hold these countries and people accountable for what they have done as well as for any excuses they may use to promote their terrorist activities. The time has come to hold Islam accountable.
'Our United States government and our President must take a close, realistic look at the radical element Islam. Islam is not a religion of peace.
'We demand action from the United Nations. Muslim dominated countries can no longer be allowed to spread their hate against Christians and minorities.'
President Barack Obama did speak out about the violence last night - but did not mention Pastor Jones. He said: 'We stress the importance of calm and urge all parties to reject violence and resolve differences through dialogue.'
Obama said the desecration of the Koran 'is an act of extreme intolerance and bigotry' - but that was the closest he came to touching on the Jones subject.
The Taliban has reportedly claimed responsibility for the killings, saying they were part of a campaign of violence in the run up to presidential elections.
The bloodshed on Friday is the worst attack on the U.N. in Afghanistan since the war began in 2001.
Among those murdered were Norwegian, Romanian, Swedish and Nepalese nationals. Two were decapitated.
The Norwegian Defence Ministry said one of the Norwegian victims was Lt. Col Siri Skare, a 53-year-old female pilot.
Mr Jones, a former furniture salesman, was quick to respond to accusations that blood was on his hands over the killings.
he said: 'They must alter the laws that govern their countries to allow for individual freedoms and rights, such as the right to worship, free speech, and to move freely without fear of being attacked or killed.'
The controversial pastor triggered international outrage last year when he urged Americans to burn the Koran on the ninth anniversary of the 9/11 attacks.
He relented following an intervention by President Obama but on March 20 he and pastor Wayne Sapp finally carried out their threat.
More......http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1372827/Terry-Jones-Mohammed-trial-Koran-burning-sparks-2nd-day-violence.html
If he does it and nobody reports it - did it ever happen?
In this whole long thread nobody has mentioned the press.
Surgicalcric
04-04-2011, 12:43
...Say I have a dinner party once a month, and at the end of it, we ritualistically, burn a Koran. Who knows about it? Only the chosen few who have come to taste my food, and protest a religion who wants to kill all Americans...
I would argue a protest that isnt public is hardly a protest at all... It is people getting together regularly to bitch about how things are with no clear ideas of how to effect the situation or circumstance.
Maybe I am bowing to Islam and just dont know it since I havent burned a Koran in support of not supporting Islam. :rolleyes:
Pete:
If this poor excuse for a Christian pastor wouldnt be burning the Koran if it werent for the press making such a big deal about it. I stand by my comments that he is a sensationalist seeking to garner as much attention as possible without a thought to the consequences.
Crip
..........If this poor excuse for a Christian pastor wouldnt be burning the Koran if it werent for the press making such a big deal about it. .............
True but ever notice what the press reports? What they report depends on who is in the White House and if they can PO people who hate the US.
Having Obama in the White House is cramping their reporting right now.
Trials at Gitmo? War in the Middle east without a vote in congress? Over 800 US dead in Afghanistan the last 2 years?
About the only things they can focus on are the nutty preacher and Republicans who want to kill 70,000 kids.
I would argue a protest that isnt public is hardly a protest at all... It is people getting together regularly to bitch about how things are with no clear ideas of how to effect the situation or circumstance.
Maybe I am bowing to Islam and just dont know it since I havent burned a Koran in support of not supporting Islam. :rolleyes: Crip
So then we could effect the situation or circumstance by protesting publicly?
Not at all Crip, you guys are on the front lines, therefore any action you all take is going to do more to further the anti-Islamic cause than any small thing we do here at home...safe in our houses and lives......only because brave Men like you put thier lives on the line.
Holly:munchin
1stindoor
04-04-2011, 14:02
If he does it and nobody reports it - did it ever happen?
In this whole long thread nobody has mentioned the press.
That's because they're completely objective and unbiased.:rolleyes:
Just wait until Pastor Jones shows up with one of these!
Richard :munchin
greenberetTFS
04-04-2011, 16:13
If he does it and nobody reports it — did it ever happen?
In this whole long thread nobody has mentioned the press.
The press thrives on this kind of bullshit and they are equally as guilty on the consequences of what has developed............:(
Big Teddy :munchin
So then we could effect the situation or circumstance by protesting publicly?
Not at all Crip, you guys are on the front lines, therefore any action you all take is going to do more to further the anti-Islamic cause than any small thing we do here at home...safe in our houses and lives......only because brave Men like you put thier lives on the line.
Holly:munchin
Holly, if you think about it...how can a private protest affect anything public? Really, it cannot.
Our Military isn't trying to further an anti-Islamic cause...
Originally posted by SouthernDZ:
Mr Jones told the Times that, in recent weeks, he had received more than 300 death threats via phone and email, and had been told by the FBI that there was a $2.4 million contract on his life.
I wonder if the people on the other end of the phone threats had Middle Eastern accents or not. Anyone want to take bets? I am betting that most if not all of the callers had no foreign accent.
And also, this looks like a job opportunity. $2.4 million for 2 or 3 days work to be paid by Hezbollah. I wonder if final payment would be made in dollars, Saudi riyals or Iranian rials?
The Koran-burning church "pastor" sounds suspiciously like a cult leader. It seems as if his brand of "religion" has injured more than just foreign relations. If he's getting threatening phone calls, it very well could be from his own ex-parishioners.
Congregants at the Dove World Outreach Center, who have dwindled to 30 or so in number, are required to vow allegiance to Jones — a pledge that places restrictions on their diets, their ability to hold jobs outside the church and their personal relationships." (Read the rest here. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/church-that-torched-koran-has-divided-pastors-family-and-others/2011/04/03/AFuXx6XC_story.html))
And also, this looks like a job opportunity. $2.4 million for 2 or 3 days work to be paid by Hezbollah. I wonder if final payment would be made in dollars, Saudi riyals or Iranian rials?
Possible, though IMO AQ would be better of spending twice as much, or sending a hit squad to guard the pastor from any harm, his idiocy is a gift from god for their message and cause. They are praying he escalates this further. Everyday Afghans who saw AQ for the murderous thugs they are, now have it shoved in their face, see this is what the Americans really think of Islam. Any notion of a holy war, as folks mentioned only makes our mission, especially for our troops working and living among Muslims abroad that much harder. I wonder if this asshat pastor, has given a seconds thought to our troops overseas who are paying for his freedoms.
I And also, this looks like a job opportunity. $2.4 million for 2 or 3 days work to be paid by Hezbollah. I wonder if final payment would be made in dollars, Saudi riyals or Iranian rials?
After advising the Saudis for a year I'd be surprised if King Abdullah financed this. He's a lot more practical than people give him credit. He understands there are outliers in both of our cultures. Remember how many Saudi royal family members have had attempts on their lives by other Muslims in the past 3 years....
Originally posted by akv:
AQ would be better of spending twice as much, or sending a hit squad to guard the pastor from any harm, his idiocy is a gift from god for their message and cause.
That would be the smart thing for AQ to do, but they at least have to go through the motions to show to the rest of the world that they are protecting the Muslim religion. To have him killed now would be a weak short-term gain at best, but having him stay alive and continue to open his mouth would be a long-term bonanza for AQ. They could not pay for a better anti-Muslim spokesman. He is now their poster child, especially since Salman Rushdie is still effectively hiding and Kurt Westergaard is now alongside Rushdie and seemingly no longer drawing political cartoons.
Originally posted by akv:
They are praying he escalates this further.
Of course they are, just as Pastor Jones is praying that the Muslims continue to riot and murder in reaction to his acts. They both need each other to justify their ideas and actions.
Originally Posted by Tress
And also, this looks like a job opportunity. $2.4 million for 2 or 3 days work to be paid by Hezbollah. I wonder if final payment would be made in dollars, Saudi riyals or Iranian rials?
Also, I want to clarify. The above was a reference to the fact that if Pastor Jones was to be killed it could be by the hand of an American who would probably claim that it was done, altruistically, in order to protect U.S. troops in the Middle East and would expect payment in U.S. dollars. Or it could be that a Saudi Arabian could do the dirty deed and ask for payment in Saudi riyals (think 9/11 and the fact that 15 of 19 hijackers were Saudi). Or an Iranian could pull the trigger, since Iran has also called for his death, and that individual would probably seek his remittance in Iranian rials.
Or maybe I just need to stop writing obliquely. :confused:
Whichever way that it occurs, if it occurs, I do not think that AQ would pay off to anyone who was not a muslim.
1stindoor
04-05-2011, 06:40
Any notion of a holy war, as folks mentioned only makes our mission, especially for our troops working and living among Muslims abroad that much harder. I wonder if this asshat pastor, has given a seconds thought to our troops overseas who are paying for his freedoms.
Hate to break it to you, but it was a Holy War from day one. What makes things hard is our own country and elected leaders can't recognize that fact. Personally, I'm disgusted those same elected leaders would think they had to apologize. Bunch of slack jawed fa&&ots.
When did the Western world become so afraid of Islam that we are afraid to call a spade a spade? If Person A performs a lawful action, and Person B's response is murder, rape, arson, or any other immoral act(s), why should we denigrate Person A, and ignore Person B? Is this indirectly condoning/allowing Person B's reaction?
This ^^^ sirs, is my natural response to this whole situation. The preacher did not do anything legally wrong, nor morally wrong (irresponsible yes, wrong no). Where is the outrage over the murders that 'they' committed? Are we accepting responsibility for their reaction? If its 'ok' that they reacted as they did, then we were wrong to not burn/rape/pillage/decapitate/drag through the streets/blow up/ every muslim within 20 miles of ground zero on 9/12.
Hate to break it to you, but it was a Holy War from day one. What makes things hard is our own country and elected leaders can't recognize that fact. Personally, I'm disgusted those same elected leaders would think they had to apologize. Bunch of slack jawed fa&&ots.
Sir, I respectfully disagree, well at least with the Holy War part. Religion, is the catalyst, particularly the fundamentalist Islamist ideology and tent culture of AQ and the Taliban, it is an anachronism and they know it. They were able to take over in Afghanistan, and would like to re-establish an Islamic Caliphate. The Islamists are an insurgency similar to the Viet Cong, though one from the right and not the left. Muslims comprise 20% of the worlds population, across different ethnicities, cultures, regions, countries and traditions. Many are just normal people who want the same sorts of things, people have wanted across cultures and time, some are fighting alongside us against the insurgent threat. If all of these people were united in a Holy War against the West, we would be in a very different situation. IMO the Islamic fundamentalists know they are dying out, and are trying to survive by conquest.
1stindoor
04-05-2011, 10:01
Sir, I respectfully disagree, well at least with the Holy War part. Religion, is the catalyst, particularly the fundamentalist Islamist ideology and tent culture of AQ and the Taliban, it is an anachronism and they know it.
Well, it looks like we'll have to agree to disagree then. It doesn't matter to most of AQ/TB if we see it as a Holy War. They do. That's all that matters.
They were able to take over in Afghanistan, and would like to re-establish an Islamic Caliphate.
I agree completely.
Many are just normal people who want the same sorts of things, people have wanted across cultures and time, some are fighting alongside us against the insurgent threat.
And those same Muslims will be held accountable by the AQ/TB forces should we lessen our resolve. Which, if history is any indicator...will happen.
If all of these people were united in a Holy War against the West, we would be in a very different situation.
I don't think it matters, not as long as those fighting against us feel it is a Holy War.
IMO the Islamic fundamentalists know they are dyng out, and are trying to survive by conquest.
I'm not sure I can agree with that comment. They may know they are fighting a losing battle...but for them the war is far from over, and while they're waging war they're also going to use every tool in the toolbox. That includes dividing our national will from the inside.
There seems to be two views inherent in this thread. Actually, there are three, but the third view which leans towards more civility is one that I’m not personally concerned with as I believe this view travels on an impossible road for the following reason. There is no way to appease the Muslim as there will always be a grievance they can cite and this grievance will lead to violence to some degree. I personally believe this is their goal. How else can they gain power apart from this kind of violence?
As Pete has pointed out in several of his posts, they have killed Christians, caused them to uproot etc. and no one cares. These folks are not interested in equity. They are only interested in gaining power.
In the other direction, there is a tactical viewpoint and the larger strategic viewpoint. In the micro tactical viewpoint, Viking is trying to do a job, and events like the burning of the Koran make his job eminently harder.
The macro view says, no matter what we do, whatever progress is made, the gains are so fragile they’re not worth putting our soldiers’ in harm’s way for a civilization that cannot rise above an evil which continues to prevent it from becoming anything other than a dirt farm.
When I look at the last ten years, I see the our nation making a vast investment in money, blood, sweat and tears trying to provide a chance for many in the Middle East. A chance at self-determination; a chance to rise above the control of tyrants. I believe our greatest fear is that this process will ultimately result in one tyrant being replaced by another. A religious tyrant. It’s too easy to wield the Koran and use it to bully any and all in their periphery. Any conflict can be settled by issuing a new Fatwa supporting whatever the religious extremist wants. Ultimately, religious zeal is all about gaining power and control. It’s not an end; it’s the means to an end.
If we can use Iraq as a guide it seems to me it wasn’t just the surge that made the difference. The real key was the Sunni Awakening. It was when some of the tribes stepped up and said they were not going to let Al Qaeda push them around anymore that made the difference. It was this commitment or self-determination that turned the tide. This commitment was also extremely costly to those involved. Without this sacrifice, one wonders if the surge would have been successful. Will the Afghans have their Awakening?
So if we pulled out of Afghanistan, will we be left in the same situation we were prior to 9/11? If we pulled out, what are the odds that the Taliban will again come into power? If they do, what is the likelihood that they will re-establish terrorist camps and subject us to another series of terrorist attacks?
If the above is true, should we respond in a similar manner as before? Why would the results be any different?
AKV said:
The notion "these people" specifically Muslims are as a whole complicit in the acts of their own wolves, and thus holistically culturally inferior, to the point it can be rationalized " nuke em till they glow, and shoot them in the dark" is both singularly dull, and unworthy of our legacy as Americans. We are the children, grandchildren, and great grandchildren of the people that took on this most evil regime of "Supermen" and beat the ever-living tar out of it. This is a different type of war and a different type of enemy, we need to evolve and adapt to meet this threat, and we will, without forgetting who we are, the ten-fold greater threat our ancestors overcame, and with full cognizance of the dangers of "possession".
This viewpoint is interesting to me in that it is probably represents the mainstream viewpoint in America. To a degree, it could be described as refined, but I would venture say it is easier to ascribe to this philosophy if one has very little skin in the game. Justifying the "evolve and adapt philosophy" (while more Americans die and are wounded) based upon the ideology of the WWII generation is IMO a false argument. Wasn't it the same generation who dropped two atom bombs on Japan?
I say, if folks like Viking say we that they can see the light at the end of the tunnel and we need to stay our present course, then fine.
Otherwise, I say we have given the Afghans an adequate opportunity. We facilitated their path to a semi democracy. We’ve built their schools only to have their thugs burn them down again. We’ve spent money on roads only to have their thugs plant IED’s. Most importantly, we’ve sacrificed the blood of our finest. Now it’s time for the Afghans to step up. If, as a nation they again allow terrorists a safe haven; allow them to use Afghanistan as a base from which to attack America and our interest, then we will hold them accountable as a nation. Nuking them until they glow may be “singular dull”, but the message it conveys will not be. In my opinion, it will be a message heard loud and clear throughout the Radical Muslim World. F*** with the bull and you get the horn, and the next Koran we burn will be the one they are holding.
greenberetTFS
04-05-2011, 11:56
Hate to break it to you, but it was a Holy War from day one. What makes things hard is our own country and elected leaders can't recognize that fact. Personally, I'm disgusted those same elected leaders would think they had to apologize. Bunch of slack jawed fa&&ots.
I thoroughly agree with you..............;)
Big Teddy :munchin
We can never solve our significant problems from the same level of thinking we were at when we created the problems. - A. Eiinstein
And so it goes...
Richard :munchin
1stindoor
04-05-2011, 13:01
We can never solve our significant problems from the same level of thinking we were at when we created the problems. - A. Eiinstein
And so it goes...
Richard :munchin
I'm not sure I understand that quote. Do you think we (the US) are responsible for the problem? Is the problem the radical Cleric (either Christian Protestant or Muslim...you decide), their fervent followers, or is the problem US citizens on US soil, exercising their inalienable rights whether we agree with them or not?
We = Humankind
Richard :munchin
1stindoor
04-05-2011, 14:19
We = Humankind
Richard :munchin
Well played...should've seen that one coming.
What does victory look like in a war between civilizations?
What does victory look like in a war between civilizations?
One civilization is destroyed. The other survives, after a fashion, for a time.
One civilization is destroyed. The other survives, after a fashion, for a time.If you would, please tease out what you mean by "destroyed." Does one quantify destruction in military, economic, social, political, and demographic terms? Or does it also require forays into the "squishy" realms of culture, psychology, and religiosity (among others)?
Peregrino
04-05-2011, 15:08
What does victory look like in a war between civilizations?
The loser is eliminated, subjugated, or assimilated. In any event, they no longer pose a viable threat to the winner. There is no "win, win"; e.g., Carthago Delenda Est!.
What does victory look like in a war between civilizations?
Phyrric.
Richard :munchin
AKV said:
Quote:
The notion "these people" specifically Muslims are as a whole complicit in the acts of their own wolves, and thus holistically culturally inferior, to the point it can be rationalized " nuke em till they glow, and shoot them in the dark" is both singularly dull, and unworthy of our legacy as Americans. We are the children, grandchildren, and great grandchildren of the people that took on this most evil regime of "Supermen" and beat the ever-living tar out of it. This is a different type of war and a different type of enemy, we need to evolve and adapt to meet this threat, and we will, without forgetting who we are, the ten-fold greater threat our ancestors overcame, and with full cognizance of the dangers of "possession". This viewpoint is interesting to me in that it is probably represents the mainstream viewpoint in America. To a degree, it could be described as refined, but I would venture say it is easier to ascribe to this philosophy if one has very little skin in the game. Justifying the "evolve and adapt philosophy" (while more Americans die and are wounded) based upon the ideology of the WWII generation is IMO a false argument. Wasn't it the same generation who dropped two atom bombs on Japan?
Dennis,
I can't speak for what constitutes the mainstream view, though I couldn't disagree more with your analysis. My thoughts are grounded in the notion besides just our skin, actually we are " all in" as far as this game goes. American interests and the security of our republic both internally and externally trumps all in my book.
First the external component, perhaps you interprerted my aversion to "nuking them till they glow" etc as aversion to brutal force, thinking well he is from San Francisco... Nothing could be further from the truth, nuking Hiroshima and Nagaski were both efficient and necessary and saved lives, simply project the casualty figures from Iwo and Okinawa, and the Japanese tenacity at the time into a fight the scale of operation Olympus and the casualties both military and civilian become staggering. If we could terminate AQ and the fundamentalist Islamists with nukes, chemical weapons, or pork sandwiches, it wouldn't bother me a whit. The threat in Japan was confined to their populace and islands, and their civilians were supporting their war effort against us, in that capacity and the environment of that war, it sucks but those are the breaks.
In contrast, we are not at war with 1.2 billion unified Muslims, if we were things would be very different, though we could end up down this path if we allow ourselves to lose our composure, objectivity, and discipline and fall into the trap of labeling all Muslims as incorrigible, "subhuman" or whatever is needed to justify unilateral action. When you go down the path of cultural superiority, "they are just savages, subhuman", it's an evil destructive slippery slope. Where does this end? History shows us it can culminate ending up in the realm of wolves not sheepdogs, things like issuing blankets laced with small pox, shipping kids in trains to death camps, or the gang rape of Berlin by Soviet troops. The Nazis fostered such view of their ethnic and cultural superiority, it didn't end well for them and led to acts they will be reviled for, throughout eternity.
There is also the internal component, America is exceptional and great because of her freedom and civil liberties. These must be guarded with equal dilligence. Look at the history of collapsed empires, while all unique they have some similarities, corruption and excessive debt, then economic woe, frustration and anger, which some silver tongued devil stirs into blame onto a particular segment of society as the scapegoat, the resulting strife is the death knell of republics. At the point and time we decide all Muslims are "subhuman" without judging them on their individual merits, the elephant in the room becomes our own Muslim population, how long before we begin turning on our own, and where does it end? What is a greater threat to America, the Taliban in the hills of Afghanistan, or internal discord, the violation of the tenets and stability of civil liberties we hold dearly, which are the cornerstone of our republic.
So while we may still disagree, perhaps I have elucidated my views, America First.
....In contrast, we are not at war with 1.2 billion unified Muslims, if we were things would be very different, though we could end up down this path if we allow ourselves to lose our composure, objectivity, and discipline and fall into the trap of labeling all Muslims as incorrigible, "subhuman" or whatever is needed to justify unilateral action................
But they are with us. That is the problem. To be a Muslim is to believe the Koran - I know it's hard for some to understand but the Muslims do believe.
That's what it is to be a "Good Muslim". Listen to the Imams - there is no such thing as a moderate Muslim. To the Imams a "Moderate Muslim" is a bad Muslim and will be dealt with after the infidels.
akv you keep thinking I'm saying this. I'm not. I'm simply repeating what Muslim leaders say to their people.
Oh, by the way, you do know the Ivory Coast has a religious slant the news is not talking about? The country is 38% Muslim, 32% Christian and the rest is local, animalistic or none. That's another one of those "Which way are things going" Countries. We'll be hearing some more from that area if anyone is listening.
If you would, please tease out what you mean by "destroyed." Does one quantify destruction in military, economic, social, political, and demographic terms? Or does it also require forays into the "squishy" realms of culture, psychology, and religiosity (among others)?
Peregrino said it best. The particulars of the destruction matter not at all.
That's what it is to be a "Good Muslim". Listen to the Imams - there is no such thing as a moderate Muslim. To the Imams a "Moderate Muslim" is a bad Muslim and will be dealt with after the infidels. akv you keep thinking I'm saying this. I'm not. I'm simply repeating what Muslim leaders say to their people.
Pete,
I hear you, but respectfully which Muslim leaders, because we could stack up Imams with polar opposite different interpretations of the scripture, and let them fly at each other till they were blue in the face. In a way it's not centralized like Catholicism, where the Pope is the head honcho, even it was human beings each develop their own hierarchy of identity. Let's say Mussolini busted into the Vatican in 1942 and pressured the Pope to order all American Catholics to join the Axis forces, the response would have been "nice try, bub." When the Iraqis and Iran decided to have a war, they both wheeled out their respective Imams or mullahs who condemned the other. It's depressingly predictable, if you want to build schools for girls in Afghanistan, and you don't bribe the right people, you get a fatwa put on you. Then you have to find another Mullah to supercede this ruling, and you are good.
Pete my question is who are the leaders of Islam that every Muslim follows, UBL, Saddam, Gaddafhi? Nope these are just murderous thugs. If you said well then these other Muslim leaders had better step up louder and be heard, I would agree.
Unfortunately, I can't name the 10 most important or influential leaders of Christianity in the states. But I do know who Pastor Jones is and those Westboro jerks are, I also know they are not leaders any Christians I know would heed at all.
Part of the problem IMO for Islam is it is as fractured as it is diverse.
Originally posted by akv:
Part of the problem IMO for Islam is it is as fractured as it is diverse.
And maybe that is its biggest problem. Some people say that you have to look at the Quran in an historical perspective and others say that is open ended and its verses pertain to all time. There is no longer a central figure or organization that controls how it is interpreted so it is left to whatever wingnut imam that is standing before you. And there does not need to be any serious twisting of its words. They just have to cherry-pick what they want to support their ideas, cause, riot, beheading, suicide, etc.
Dozer523
04-05-2011, 18:57
I don't suppose there are Muslims out there who would feel better if we shoved a Koran up his ass. But, I'd sure like to. (THEN set it on fire.)
Originally posted by Dozer523
I don't suppose there are Muslims out there who would feel better if we shoved a Koran up his ass. But, I'd sure like too. (THEN set it on fire.)
LOL..... You really have to not be so shy, come out of that shell of yours and learn not to sugar-coat things. :D
craigepo
04-05-2011, 21:12
Pete,
I hear you, but respectfully which Muslim leaders, because we could stack up Imams with polar opposite different interpretations of the scripture, and let them fly at each other till they were blue in the face.
Be very leery of the stack that hates the West. That stack will probably be rigged with explosives. Unfortunately, to determine which stack hates you, you will have to utilize your technique of judging each one by his own merits, which will place you well within his range fan.
Or, you could stand off a fair piece, and burn a Koran.
WhiskeyRomeo
04-05-2011, 23:12
...because despite having military leaders with decades of exemplary service and business and political leaders who have attained positions of significant national and global power, all of that has been trumped. Apparently, the real forces influencing global events are a pastor of a made-up church and a Rolling Stones reporter who probably can't pass a urinalysis. Nice. My high school guidance counselor was completely out to lunch.
1stindoor
04-06-2011, 07:58
I thought this was a good fit in this discussion.
http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2011/04/manifesto-of-evil-totalitarian.html
craigepo
04-06-2011, 09:22
I thought this was a good fit in this discussion.
http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2011/04/manifesto-of-evil-totalitarian.html
WOW. Part 2 was tough. There is an old cliche', "Every one is entitled to their opinion, no one is entitled to their own facts". Kind of hard to argue with her when she is reading directly from the Koran.
One writer opined that this gal "ovulates .45 ACP rounds". Might be right.
One battalion of women like this would be scary.
nousdefions
04-06-2011, 09:36
Bacon Bookmarks -- Classic
Also check-out her web page Ann Barnhardt (http://barnhardt.biz/)
1stindoor
04-06-2011, 09:40
Bacon Bookmarks -- Classic
Also check-out her web page Ann Barnhardt (http://barnhardt.biz/)
Beat me by 5 minutes...I was about to post the same thing. Did you see her PINK AR-15? I just know there's someone else reading this thread that's seething. lol.
Did you see her PINK AR-15? I just know there's someone else reading this thread that's seething. lol.
1stindoor.....normally that would be true! But WOW. This Ann Barnhardt is something else.
I'm mad as hell about our American politicians, like Graham, wanting to back down to Islam, but I can't imagine myself being brave enough to make a youtube video and hand out my home address and say come and get me you jackasses. I'm in awe of what she just did. It inspires me and I hope it inspires many others.
As far as I'm concerned, she makes pink look cool! ;)
Bacon Bookmarks -- Classic
Also check-out her web page Ann Barnhardt (http://barnhardt.biz/)
I like the bit where she tells fans to not stop by unannounced.
Is Senator Graham "backing down" to Islam or has he been brushing up on Clausewitz?
nousdefions
04-06-2011, 17:05
Is Senator Graham "backing down" to Islam or has he been brushing up on Clausewitz?
I don't think Jackass could tell a Clausewitz from a Subordinate Clause :D
Re: the pink AR-15. Did you notice the inscription on the butt-stock?
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:
The Greek phrase Molōn labe! (Μολὼν λαβέ; approximate Ancient Greek pronunciation [molɔ̀ːn labé], Modern Greek [moˈlon laˈve]), meaning "Come and take them" is a classical expression of defiance reportedly by King Leonidas I in response to the Persian army's demand that the Spartans surrender their weapons at the Battle of Thermopylae. It corresponds roughly to the modern equivalent English phrase "over my dead body", "bring it on" or, most closely, "come and get it". It is an exemplary use of a laconic phrase.
I don't think Jackass could tell a Clausewitz from a Subordinate Clause :D
Please edit this post before QP Richard reads it and resumes with the punishment.
Originally posted by 1stindoor:
I thought this was a good fit in this discussion.
http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/20...alitarian.html
Damn!!!!! In horse racing they would call that a trifecta!!!
A woman slapping pork on the Quran and then burning it!!! If this does not push them over the edge nothing will.
1stindoor.....normally that would be true! But WOW. This Ann Barnhardt is something else.
As far as I'm concerned, she makes pink look cool! ;)
Agree with you orion.
(Don't know if I could sport "pink,") but damn good nonetheless. ;-)
Holly
1stindoor
04-07-2011, 06:12
I don't think Jackass could tell a Clausewitz from a Subordinate Clause :D
Re: the pink AR-15. Did you notice the inscription on the butt-stock?
Color coordinating your AR with your outfit is so difficult these days...that's why I stuck with black.
Color coordinating your AR with your outfit is so difficult these days...that's why I stuck with black.
Yeah, I thought the same thing...until I retired and had the daily challenge to color coordinate all those shoes, socks, suits, shirts, belts, and ties. ;)
And so it goes...
Richard :munchin
Perhaps one should realize that a good portion of the Muslim community world wide is illiterate and while they may own a copy or 2 of the Koran (because its required), they do not possess their own ability to read it, and as such have to rely on other people such as the Imams to tell them what their "good book" says.
Think back to the US in the early 1800s, how many people could read and write?
Anyone want to chip in for airfare for Paster Jones, so he can hold his trial in either Iraq or Afghanistan? I'll use my frequent flyer miles for his trip...:D
Not sure I want to volunteer my location for the trial though.. then again, it is Hunting Season here.:munchin
So Ann is going to get a bodyguard after this right? I don't think it was smart to post this online.
mdpatterson
04-08-2011, 06:01
I'm not sure I can agree with that comment. They may know they are fighting a losing battle...but for them the war is far from over, and while they're waging war they're also going to use every tool in the toolbox. That includes dividing our national will from the inside.
To me, 1stindoor brings up a major issue that seems to be put on the back burner.
As most (if not all) here have heard many times over quoted by then Republican candidate for Senate of Illinois Lincoln, "A house divided against itself cannot stand". This quote was taken from a speech given in 1858........nothing to do with this debate but no less true today.
I won't even attempt to quote battle strategies in a house full of seasoned warriors, but divide and conquer is as basic as it gets.......and that's exactly one tactic our enemies are attempting to use (This thread is proof that it is working).
I'll pose only one question, how many of our enemies does anyone think are having debates like this amongst themselves? I would wager none because they have only one mission and play by their own rules, OUR rules mean nothing to them. If a forum like PS.com (Mostly consisting of like minded individuals from what I have seen) has members debating this, I don't even want to think how many liberals in this country are taking it to a whole other level.
I know this is old news, but still makes me sick when I read the various versions of the article:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,297903,00.html
I understand there are rules of engagement, but maybe it's time for those rules to be "Modified" (Officially) when we are fighting an enemy who has no rules. While we are charging our own men for being "Sneaky Bastards" and saving lives in the process, our enemy is sitting back laughing as they plan their next attack.
IMHO, if we don't come together as a nation, it might be us facing a losing battle soon.
Again, I'm make no claims to be an expert here........just my opinion.
Mike
(This thread is proof that it {divide and conquer} is working).
I disagree - cum hoc ergo propter hoc.
Richard :munchin
mdpatterson
04-08-2011, 08:16
I disagree - cum hoc ergo propter hoc.
Richard :munchin
I wasn't trying to say that their tactics were cause for this debate, but I see how my wording could have looked like mistaking correlation for causation.
I have no doubt that members of this forum can debate and discuss an issue without creating a division, but I do not think the nation as a whole can do the same.
I do stand by my opinion that this is a tactic they are using, and believe it is working (At least to some extent) with our policy makers and the general public.
Just my opinion and I could be way off base. I definitely have no desire to debate ANY topic with you Sir as I've read many of your posts and respect your opinion. That's all for me posting on this topic.......I'll go back to what I do know and post some more pics of weapons :D. I will continue to read more and post less ;).
Mike
incarcerated
04-10-2011, 00:30
http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/264222/afghan-blowback-paul-marshall
Afghan Blowback
There is no reason to restrict our freedoms at home.
April 8, 2011 4:00 A.M.
Last weekend, there were violent demonstrations in Afghanistan to protest a Koran burning in Florida. The Afghans who incited the demonstrations have delivered on several key Taliban objectives. They scored important points in the battle for hearts and minds when the U.S. president and senior American and NATO military commanders went on the defensive before Afghan audiences. More troubling, powerful American voices expressed doubts about bedrock American freedoms of speech and religion.
Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid debated holding hearings on Koran desecration. Sen. Lindsey Graham, who boasts of being a chief sponsor of legislation against flag burning, expressed his wish to “hold people accountable” for Koran burnings, since, while “free speech is a great idea,” America is “in a war.” When given a chance to explain, he dug this hole deeper. This isn’t the first time that violence has secured concessions from U.S. officials: Last September, Supreme Court Justice Stephen Breyer told an interviewer of his desire for a First Amendment exception that would allow those who immolate the Muslim holy book to be punished. These senior American leaders are, in effect, contemplating an Islamic blasphemy law — the first U.S. federal blasphemy law for any religion.
In response to this baleful drama, the first thing to understand is that accusations of apostasy, blasphemy, and insulting Islam are protean. In the Muslim world, blasphemy punishments are not used primarily against religious insult by the intolerant, but against those who express unpopular or dissenting views. International human-rights groups report that in Pakistan, blasphemy charges are also commonly used against neighbors and co-workers to settle personal scores.
Muslim blasphemy has recently been defined to include: denouncing stoning as a human-rights violation (Sudan), opening girls’ schools (Bangladesh), criticizing the Guardianship of the Jurists (Iran), petitioning for a constitution (Saudi Arabia), use of the word “Allah” by Christians (Malaysia), rejecting an order for violent jihad (Sudan), praying at the graves of relatives (Saudi Arabia), translating the Koran into Dari (Afghanistan), accidentally tearing a calendar page containing a Koranic verse (Pakistan), naming a teddy bear after a boy named Mohamed (Sudan), urging that the Koran be understood in its historical and cultural context (Indonesia), teaching Shiism (Egypt), and calling for a ban on child brides (Yemen). Mob violence, intimidation, court trials, and penalties accompany these cases.
And once in place, blasphemy laws are nearly impossible to reform. This year in Pakistan, Gov. Salman Taseer and cabinet minister Shabbaz Bhatti were murdered for opposing such laws.
Second, complaints of blasphemy are politically manipulated, particularly when levelled against someone in a foreign country. While, with political and social turmoil overwhelming many Organization of Islamic Conference members, the Florida Koran-burning case has the potential of going viral, so far it has not caused rioting in Mecca or anywhere else in the Muslim heartland, the Arab world. In fact, it is only rare Western “insults to Islam,” such as the Danish cartoons or the pope’s Regensburg speech (which linked Islam to violence), that become causes célèbres worldwide, and these occur only after concerted political campaigns to foment outrage.
Finally, by their nature, Muslim blasphemy punishments abjectly fail at bringing about social peace. Even aside from the problem of a law to protect only one religion, in the battle of ideas within Islam, blasphemy restrictions empower extremists, who use them to silence alternative voices. Muslim religious and political reformers working to lift their societies out of stunting ideological conformity are the first to be silenced.
As one such Muslim reformer, the late Egyptian scholar Nasr Hamid Abu-Zayd, pointed out: “Having been at the receiving end of such allegations — and driven from my home in Egypt to exile in the Netherlands — I can state with conviction that charges of apostasy and blasphemy are key weapons in the fundamentalists’ arsenal, strategically employed to prevent reform of Muslim societies and instead confine the world’s Muslim population to a bleak, colorless prison of socio-cultural and political conformity.”
The ultimate goal of the Taliban and other radical groups is, of course, to impose strict Islamic rule, which critically hinges on the regulation of speech about and within Islam. If our leaders now entertain proposals for restricting speech about and within Islam, one blowback from Operation Enduring Freedom may be in fact the decrease of freedom — here at home.
— Paul Marshall and Nina Shea are senior fellows at the Hudson Institute and authors of the forthcoming Silenced: How Apostasy and Blasphemy Codes are Choking Freedoms Worldwide.
EDITORIAL: When Muslims burn Korans
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/apr/11/when-muslims-burn-korans/
"Two dissidents, an Iranian and an Afghan, have posted a video to YouTube in which they burn a Koran. In the United States, the act would spark a debate about freedom of speech versus tolerance. In their countries, it is a criminal offense that could bring a death sentence............"
Hmmm, selective riots. Notice at the end of the editorial - the bit about nationalism.
I keep wondering...why burn it? There are more creative approaches.
Perhaps one could rip its pages out of the binding, run them through a low-end paper shredder, and make paper mache'. Then form it into a pinata and fill it with...oh, I don't know...individually wrapped bacon candied in maple syrup. And finally, let children from the local church beat on it as part of a benefit of some sort.
Way more creative than just burning it, IMO. :D
I keep wondering...why burn it?
I agree….rather than burn it, since over 60% of the Qur’an is devoted to how the Kafir (non-Muslims) are to be treated by Muslims, I think everyone should read it - then its contents wouldn’t be distorted…
Pastor Who Burned Koran Says He Was Duped Into Holding Back
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/17/us/17jones.html?_r=1
"GAINESVILLE, Fla. — The pastor who stoked violence in Afghanistan earlier this month by burning a Koran in March produced a recording on Saturday that he said proved he was deceived last September when he agreed to cancel plans to burn 200 copies of the Koran................"
So now he has a recording of what Musri told him last year. So now who do we believe? Hmmmmmmm.
So now he has a recording of what Musri told him last year. So now who do we believe? Hmmmmmmm.
What did Mohammad have to say about lying for the cause?
Volume 4, Book 52, Number 267:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, "Khosrau will be ruined, and there will be no Khosrau after him, and Caesar will surely be ruined and there will be no Caesar after him, and you will spend their treasures in Allah's Cause." He called, "War is deceit'.
Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Book 52:
Volume 4, Book 52, Number 268:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle called,: "War is deceit".
Volume 4, Book 52, Number 269:
Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:
The Prophet said, "War is deceit."
Source (http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/bukhari/052.sbt.html#004.052.267)
http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/264222/afghan-blowback-paul-marshall
Afghan Blowback
There is no reason to restrict our freedoms at home.
April 8, 2011 4:00 A.M.
In response to this baleful drama, the first thing to understand is that accusations of apostasy, blasphemy, and insulting Islam are protean. In the Muslim world, blasphemy punishments are not used primarily against religious insult by the intolerant, but against those who express unpopular or dissenting views. International human-rights groups report that in Pakistan, blasphemy charges are also commonly used against neighbors and co-workers to settle personal scores.
Muslim blasphemy has recently been defined to include: denouncing stoning as a human-rights violation (Sudan), opening girls’ schools (Bangladesh), criticizing the Guardianship of the Jurists (Iran), petitioning for a constitution (Saudi Arabia), use of the word “Allah” by Christians (Malaysia), rejecting an order for violent jihad (Sudan), praying at the graves of relatives (Saudi Arabia), translating the Koran into Dari (Afghanistan), accidentally tearing a calendar page containing a Koranic verse (Pakistan), naming a teddy bear after a boy named Mohamed (Sudan), urging that the Koran be understood in its historical and cultural context (Indonesia), teaching Shiism (Egypt), and calling for a ban on child brides (Yemen). Mob violence, intimidation, court trials, and penalties accompany these cases.
Does this smack of our own 'Fairness Doctrine', where the government is essentially allowed to censure some, in order to give 'equal time' to others?
Is there a parallel here between this blasphemy law and what kept Germans in fear of the Gestapo?
We have our own issues here in our country. Its distressing to see the 'illuminated' Harry Reid obviously needs to go back and read Thomas Payne and Thomas Jefferson.