View Full Version : Earthquake Triggers Tsunami Off Japan’s Coast
And so it goes...
Richard :munchin
Huge Earthquake Triggers Tsunami Off Japan’s Coast
NYT, 11 Mar 2011
A devastating tsunami hit the coast of northeast Japan on Friday in the aftermath of an 8.9 magnitude earthquake about 80 miles offshore, killing at least 23 people and injuring many more. The earthquake triggered widespread power blackouts, and countries across the Pacific Ocean, from Russia to South America and including Hawaii and the West Coast of the United States, braced for possible tsunami waves.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/12/world/asia/12japan.html
32 Killed In Major Tsunami After 8.9 Japan Quake
AP, 11 Mar 2011
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110311/ap_on_re_as/as_japan_earthquake
Tree Potato
03-11-2011, 05:16
Latest info we're being told is to expect a 6 ft wave/surge here at Jt Base Pearl Harbor-Hickam. Base housing hasn't been evac'd (yet) but my family will likely get to the 3rd floor of the HQ PACAF building just in case.
The carrier Abraham Lincoln pulled into Pearl Harbor this morning for shore leave, then had to head back to sea this evening to ride out the tsunami.
I figure this one is going to be bad... the mrs is actually doing laundry and dishes at 1 am... :D
(Just getting it done before the power is turned off and water becomes unpotable, if things get ugly)
Video at link
Man o man
http://video.foxnews.com/v/4579888/incredible-video-wall-of-water-sweeps-ashore-in-japan
OK - should have gone in the earthquake thread but I'm in a hurry and don't have time to move it.
Moved it - wow! Richard
Constant
03-11-2011, 07:06
Hope everyone is safe. Hopefully the waves don't get huge.
Video at link
Man o man
http://video.foxnews.com/v/4579888/incredible-video-wall-of-water-sweeps-ashore-in-japan
OK - should have gone in the earthquake thread but I'm in a hurry and don't have time to move it.
Moved it - wow! Richard
Wow.
It did not even look like water, and the force behind it, just incredible.
May God help those poor people, and all to be affected.
Holly
Bill Harsey
03-11-2011, 07:58
Richard, thanks for the post.
Big Tsunami warnings on Oregon Coast right now, I would think this applies to other places too.
Check your local news of you live on Pacific Coast NOW.
All the best to any members living in Japan. (and I know there's at least one)
Bill Harsey
03-11-2011, 08:00
Latest info we're being told is to expect a 6 ft wave/surge here at Jt Base Pearl Harbor-Hickam. Base housing hasn't been evac'd (yet) but my family will likely get to the 3rd floor of the HQ PACAF building just in case.
The carrier Abraham Lincoln pulled into Pearl Harbor this morning for shore leave, then had to head back to sea this evening to ride out the tsunami.
I figure this one is going to be bad... the mrs is actually doing laundry and dishes at 1 am... :D
(Just getting it done before the power is turned off and water becomes unpotable, if things get ugly)
News says your getting your first waves.
Tree Potato
03-11-2011, 08:22
News says your getting your first waves.
Kahului harbor has seen 6 ft, and Haleiwa had 3.3 ft.
Pearl Harbor reported a half meter so far. No reports of any damage in Hawaii yet after seeing the water push in and recede a few times.
Think we dodged a bullet. Thoughts go out to our friends in Japan. Still haven't heard from some of my airmen in Tokyo and while hope isn't a plan, I hope they're okay.
I heard Sharks are biting the Hands and Feet of Japanese. Then throwing them back in the Water alive.
Roguish Lawyer
03-11-2011, 15:43
I heard Sharks are biting the Hands and Feet of Japanese. Then throwing them back in the Water alive.
Nice
Bill Harsey
03-11-2011, 16:12
One of our members here was hit by the tsunami.
Hoping for the best.
Nice
When you brutally kill millions of living creatures in this world. With absolutely no thought of the suffering and total lack of respect for life. For no reason but personal pleasure. Karma is a Bitch.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2UKgLsOhRM
When you brutally kill millions of living creatures in this world. With absolutely no thought of the suffering and total lack of respect for life. For no reason but personal pleasure. Karma is a Bitch.What people or nation will be able to hold themselves blameless when the time of reckoning comes?
The wave in the video was something else,
Prayers Out
Great timing.... yeah, we don't really need those normally anyway...not like tsunamis are an everyday thing...
GOP budget cuts target tsunami warning center (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110311/ap_on_re_us/us_congress_tsunami_warnings_2)
BY MATTHEW DALY
Associated Press
WASHINGTON (AP) – A spending plan approved by the House would slash funding for a tsunami warning center that issued an alarm after the devastating earthquake in Japan.
The plan approved by the GOP-controlled House last month would trigger deep cuts for the National Weather Service, including the Pacific Tsunami Warning Center in Hawaii.
A union [NWSEO] (http://nwseo.org/) representing workers at the tsunami center said the proposed cuts could result in furloughs and rolling closures of National Weather Service offices. Barry Hirshorn, Pacific region chairman of the National Weather Service Employees Organization, said the GOP bill would affect the center's ability to issue warnings similar to those issued after Friday's earthquake in Japan.
more content on the same issue from Dynamic AP link here:
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_CONGRESS_TSUNAMI_WARNINGS?SITE=NCWIN&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110311/ap_on_re_as/as_japan_earthquake
AP update says that radiation levels outside the nuclear powerplant are increasing.
Great timing.... yeah, we don't really need those normally anyway...not like tsunamis are an everyday thing...
GOP budget cuts target tsunami warning center (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110311/ap_on_re_us/us_congress_tsunami_warnings)ES 96--
How carefully did you read the news piece in your post before hitting "submit reply"? Did you do any additional research to verify the accuracy of the union boss quoted in the piece? Or did you just go with the pink?
When you brutally kill millions of living creatures in this world. With absolutely no thought of the suffering and total lack of respect for life. For no reason but personal pleasure. Karma is a Bitch.
I figured the dose of mercury consumers of shark fins get was more targeted/fitting? Bio-accumulation and all.
Even sharks deserve better though, what a waste.
The images are unbelievable!!
The nuclear power plant issue is going to drive world issues of Nuclear Power Plants.
ES 96--
How carefully did you read the news piece in your post before hitting "submit reply"?
Very.
Did you do any additional research to verify the accuracy of the union boss quoted in the piece?
Yes.
Letter from National Weather Service Employees Organization [the cited union] President Dan Sobien (http://nwseo.org/2011_Member_News/Sobien%20Budget%20Ltr%20NWS.pdf)
the below quote is from here:
http://nwseo.org/member_news.php
As NWSEO has reported, we have been informed [see linked letter from NWSEO's Pres above] that there will be rolling closures of forecast offices nationwide, and all employees will be subject to a minimum of a 27-day furlough.
Or did you just go with the pink?
I use the pink text to indicate sarcasm as my SA on this site indicates I should. Am I misusing it?
One of our members here was hit by the tsunami.
Hoping for the best.
Indeed...hoping for the best. Let us know if we can help.
I don't normally frequent msn dot com, but there are some incredible photos there.
Godspeed to all.
What people or nation will be able to hold themselves blameless when the time of reckoning comes?
Good question to ask ourselves, individually, IMHO.
Though my reading list is limited, "The Rape of Nanking" was on it.
Am curious, sir, is this what you are reffering to?
(Though I am sure you have never met the subculture at the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, MN. It is an underground world of tunnels with expenive shops, and wares for sale to those that must visit their domain, due to loved ones dying.) Not unlike those who died, or will die today. Unfortunate indeed.
Holly
Entire post.The issue is not the furloughs, the issue is the ability of the warning centers to operate effectively with rolling furloughs.
The union (surprisingly) says the centers won't be able to function as needed if not fully staffed. You "verify" this claim by using source A to confirm information given by source B. However, both work for the same organization, and both have the same goal: to protect the interests of its members <<LINK (http://nwseo.org/pdfs_3/top20.pdf)>>.
Meanwhile, you take a shot at lawmakers who are trying to cut the federal budget without compromising the nation's safety. A portion of the article--which you declined to quote in your post--provides evidence of this commitment.A spokeswoman for the House Appropriations Committee, which is leading the budget-cutting effort, said deep cuts were needed to restore the country's fiscal health. The GOP plan would cut spending for NOAA operations by nearly 10 percent below the budget enacted last year.
"The nation is in an historic fiscal crisis, and it is imperative that the Congress roll back spending in virtually every area of government — including NOAA — so that we can help our economy back on track," said spokeswoman Jennifer Hing.
While lawmakers look for cuts, they recognize the need to maintain critical life-saving and safety programs, Hing said. For instance, the GOP budget does not cut spending for a network of tsunami-detecting buoys in the Pacific Ocean.
GOP leaders will continue to work with the Obama administration and NOAA officials "to ensure that vital programs such as these receive adequate funding," Hing said.
Roguish Lawyer
03-11-2011, 18:46
When you brutally kill millions of living creatures in this world. With absolutely no thought of the suffering and total lack of respect for life. For no reason but personal pleasure. Karma is a Bitch.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2UKgLsOhRM
I am opposed to shark finning. I thought your post was hilarious!
Entire post.
Apologies, I thought you were asking if I had verified if what the union rep said was in indeed the official view of his union and not just an off the cuff response to a reporter.
Interesting, I did not see that same article when I updated the original link from the Yahoo News/AP to the same story on AP. Looks like they [AP] have since updated it with the article you are citing. It seems like the AP has some sort of Dynamic link that can point to different articles talking about the same issue(s).
Here is a link to what I originally had access to and posted, before updated it the same content (at the time) via the the AP link I thought was static:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110311/ap_on_re_us/us_congress_tsunami_warnings_2
Glad you brought up that the content changed. Reading the new article now. Thanks!
When you brutally kill millions of living creatures in this world. With absolutely no thought of the suffering and total lack of respect for life. For no reason but personal pleasure. Karma is a Bitch.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2UKgLsOhRM
WTF are you talking about? The Japanese don't do shark finning, it's the Chinese. Nice to see your intell is bang on :rolleyes:
One of our members here was hit by the tsunami. Hoping for the best.
As Gypsy said, let us know if we can help.
I have friends on vacation in Hawaii. They were evacuated to higher ground and spent the night in a parking lot. So glad it wasn't any worse than that.
S.
Kit Carson
03-11-2011, 20:29
We had a number of knifemakers, collectors, and dealers in HI for the Invitational Knife Show.
Tom Mayo and Les George have posted on Facebook that they are ok. Haven't seen much on the others.
Les George
03-12-2011, 01:16
We are all good here on Oahu, we fortunately dodged the bullet.
Got a message from my friends in Okinawa (1/1) all is well.
Probably should keep the people of Japan in our thoughts and / or prayers, depending on your personal beliefs.
Blue
shooter_250
03-12-2011, 02:20
some new info just hit yahoo news...at least it's new to me...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/as_japan_earthquake
thought folks might want to check it out...
Lee
BBC report below - this disaster may set back nuclear power development in our country for decades.
Continued dependence on middle east oil is obviously problematic - can anyone say drill baby drill?
12 March 2011 Last updated at 08:27 ET
Huge blast at Japan nuclear power plant
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12720219
This is gonna be the number one disaster to date.
WTF are you talking about? The Japanese don't do shark finning, it's the Chinese. Nice to see your intell is bang on :rolleyes:
I was just about to point the same thing out...Shark Fin soup, Tiger Penis soup, etc...why can't Chinese men just take Viagra?
For those who don't speak Chinese..that Youtube video was in Chinese, not Japanese.
[T]his disaster may set back nuclear power development in our country for decades.I think your projection could easily be more definitive.
Even if the facility in Japan ultimately proves the durability of nuclear power plants, the NIMBY crowd and environmentalists will beat the "It could have been much worse" drum loudly enough to drown out all else.
The video is chilling.
I think your projection could easily be more definitive.
I neglected the YMMV.
The NIMBY folks will always be there - c'est la vie.
This is gonna be the number one disaster to date.
I think your projection could not be more definitive, Sir! Very well said.
This entire event remindes me that neither death nor life, nor those upon this earth, or those departed from it, are more powerful than mother nature.
She is the ultimate force to be reckoned with, IMVHO.:munchin
Holly
The Power of Mother Nature. Amazing!
Quake moved Japan coast 8 feet; shifted Earth's axis
(CNN) -- The powerful earthquake that unleashed a devastating tsunami Friday appears to have moved the main island of Japan by 8 feet (2.4 meters) and shifted the Earth on its axis.
"At this point, we know that one GPS station moved (8 feet), and we have seen a map from GSI (Geospatial Information Authority) in Japan showing the pattern of shift over a large area is consistent with about that much shift of the land mass," said Kenneth Hudnut, a geophysicist with the U.S. Geological Survey (USGS).
Reports from the National Institute of Geophysics and Volcanology in Italy estimated the 8.9-magnitude quake shifted the planet on its axis by nearly 4 inches (10 centimeters).
The temblor, which struck Friday afternoon near the east coast of Japan, killed hundreds of people, caused the formation of 30-foot walls of water that swept across rice fields, engulfed entire towns, dragged houses onto highways, and tossed cars and boats like toys. Some waves reached six miles (10 kilometers) inland in Miyagi Prefecture on Japan's east coast.
The quake was the most powerful to hit the island nation in recorded history and the tsunami it unleashed traveled across the Pacific Ocean, triggering tsunami warnings and alerts for 50 countries and territories as far away as the western coasts of Canada, the U.S. and Chile. The quake triggered more than 160 aftershocks in the first 24 hours -- 141 measuring 5.0-magnitude or more.
The quake occurred as the Earth's crust ruptured along an area about 250 miles (400 kilometers) long by 100 miles (160 kilometers) wide, as tectonic plates slipped more than 18 meters, said Shengzao Chen, a USGS geophysicist.
Japan is located along the Pacific "ring of fire," an area of high seismic and volcanic activity stretching from New Zealand in the South Pacific up through Japan, across to Alaska and down the west coasts of North and South America. The quake was "hundreds of times larger" than the 2010 quake that ravaged Haiti, said Jim Gaherty of the LaMont-Doherty Earth Observatory at Columbia University.
The Japanese quake was of similar strength to the 2004 earthquake in Indonesia that triggered a tsunami that killed over 200,000 people in more than a dozen countries around the Indian Ocean. "The tsunami that it sent out was roughly comparable in terms of size," Gaherty said. "[The 2004 tsunami] happened to hit some regions that were not very prepared for tsunamis ... we didn't really have a very sophisticated tsunami warning system in the Indian Ocean basin at the time so the damage was significantly worse."
The Japanese quake comes just weeks after a 6.3-magnitude earthquake struck Christchurch on February 22, toppling historic buildings and killing more than 150 people. The timeframe of the two quakes have raised questions whether the two incidents are related, but experts say the distance between the two incidents makes that unlikely.
"I would think the connection is very slim," said Prof. Stephan Grilli, ocean engineering professor at the University of Rhode Island.
CNN's Ivan Cabrera contributed to this report
http://www.infowars.com/quake-moved-japan-coast-8-feet-shifted-earths-axis/
The Power of Mother Nature. Amazing!
Seriously, as human beings we cherish the objects and shelters that can keep us safe from other human beings, like guns and ammo, arrows and bows, swords and knives etc...but when nature sweeps in with 500mph waves, all we can hope for is speed, skill, and good luck, IMHO.
There is no defense, which in itself, makes it very scary. Prayers Out!
Holly
incarcerated
03-12-2011, 15:11
Stratfor is reporting the presence of iodine (from fuel pins), cesium and Selenium 137 outside of the Fukushima Daiichi plant suggests that the Unit 1 reactor’s containment vessel has been breached.
A conflicting report:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/12/japan-quake-iaea-idUSLDE72B0J320110312
Japan sees lower radioactivity level at plant-IAEA
Sat Mar 12, 2011 3:38pm EST
VIENNA, (Reuters) - Japan has told the U.N. atomic watchdog there was an initial increase of radioactivity around a quake-hit plant on Saturday but that levels "have been observed to lessen in recent hours," the Vienna-based agency said.
The International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) also said it had been informed by Japanese authorities that Saturday's explosion at the Fukushima Daiichi plant occurred outside the primary containment vessel.
"The plant operator, Tokyo Electric Power Company (TEPCO), has confirmed that the integrity of the primary containment vessel remains intact," it said in a statement. (Reporting by Fredrik Dahl; editing by Janet Lawrence)
incarcerated
03-12-2011, 16:01
http://www.stratfor.com/analysis/20110312-japanese-government-confirms-meltdown
Japanese Government Confirms Meltdown
March 12, 2011 | 2148 GMT
Japan’s Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency (NISA) said March 12 that the explosion at the Fukushima Daiichi No. 1 nuclear plant could only have been caused by a meltdown of the reactor core, Japanese daily Nikkei reported. This statement seemed somewhat at odds with Japanese Chief Cabinet Secretary Yukio Edano’s comments earlier March 12, in which he said “the walls of the building containing the reactor were destroyed, meaning that the metal container encasing the reactor did not explode.”
NISA’s statement is significant because it is the government agency that reports to the Agency for Natural Resources and Energy within the Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry. NISA works in conjunction with the Atomic Energy Commission....
It is difficult to determine at this point whether the NISA statement is accurate, as the Nikkei report has not been corroborated by others. It is also not clear from the context whether NISA is stating the conclusions of an official assessment or simply making a statement. However, the Tokyo Electric Power Co. (TEPCO), the operator of the Fukushima nuclear plant, also said that although it had relieved pressure, nevertheless some nuclear fuel had melted and further action was necessary to contain the pressure.
If this report is accurate, it would not be the first time statements by NISA and Edano have diverged. When Edano earlier claimed that radiation levels had fallen at the site after the depressurization efforts, NISA claimed they had risen due to the release of radioactive vapors.
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Fukushima+Daiichi+nuclear&ie=UTF8&hl=en&hq=Fukushima+Daiichi+nuclear&hnear=&radius=15000&ll=37.420515,141.03334&spn=0.002539,0.004474&t=h&z=17
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/13/world/asia/13nuclear.html
Japan Floods Nuclear Reactor Crippled by Quake in Effort to Avert Meltdown
By MICHAEL WINES and MATTHEW L. WALD
Published: March 12, 2011
TOKYO — Japanese officials took the extraordinary step on Saturday of flooding a nuclear reactor with seawater in a last-ditch effort to avoid a nuclear meltdown, after an explosion there escalated the emergency caused by the huge earthquake and tsunami that destroyed parts of the country’s northeastern coast on Friday.
Officials said late Saturday that leaks of radioactive material from the plant, in northern Japan, were receding and that a major meltdown was no longer imminent....
Would dropping a Nuke on it stop it's spread.
Looks like it's melting down. This is going to bad.
incarcerated
03-12-2011, 17:08
Even if the facility in Japan ultimately proves the durability of nuclear power plants, the NIMBY crowd and environmentalists will beat the "It could have been much worse" drum loudly enough to drown out all else.
It would be a shame to waste a perfectly good crisis.
Photo caption:
STUTTGART, GERMANY - MARCH 12: Anti-nuclear activists hold hands in a human chain they projected as 45km long in front of the Neckarwestheim nuclear power plant on March 12, 2011 near Neckarwestheim, Germany. The activists were protesting against the government-granted extension of the operational timespan of several of Germany's older nuclear power plants, which Chancellor Merkel's government claims is necessary to bridge demand before planned renewable energy projects begin operation. The activists claim their call for an end to nuclear power is all the more vital given the current, potential catastrophe brewing at at least one reactor at the tsunami-damaged Fukushima facility in Japan.
incarcerated
03-12-2011, 17:14
See also video here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBZQZToDpXo&feature=player_embedded
Photo caption:
In these combo images made from Japan's NHK television, the Fukushima Daiichi power plant's Unit 1 is seen before (top) and after (bottom) an explosion in Okumamachi, Fukushima prefecture, Japan, Saturday, March 12, 2011. The walls of the building at the nuclear power station crumbled Saturday as smoke poured out and Japanese officials said they feared the reactor could melt down following the failure of its cooling system in a powerful earthquake and tsunami. The damaged structure of Unit 1 can be seen at left after the walls crumbled. Japanese characters read: "before 9 a.m. , top," and "at around 4:30 p.m." MANDATORY CREDIT, JAPAN OUT.
Entire post.The answer to your question is "no."
I had events closer to home in mind <<LINK1 (http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=llsl&fileName=004/llsl004.db&recNum=458)>>, <<LINK2 (http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=llsl&fileName=004/llsl004.db&recNum=459)>>, <<RATIONALIZATION (http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=29472&st=indian&st1=removal#axzz1GRFkctAg)>>.
ZonieDiver
03-12-2011, 21:33
WTF are you talking about? The Japanese don't do shark finning, it's the Chinese. Nice to see your intell is bang on :rolleyes:
Well, ummm, actually, though the Chinese do the bulk of the eating - all over Asia -the Japanese do a significant part of the killing. And, it seems, they help with the eating, too.
http://marinebio.org/blog/?p=1530
incarcerated
03-12-2011, 21:35
Stratfor reports that a sixth Fukushima reactor has lost cooling functions, but there is confusion as to whether this occurred at the Daini or Daiichi power plant.
incarcerated
03-13-2011, 00:17
Apart from the drama at the Daiichi plant, we have this TEPCO news release concerning the Daini plant:
http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/press/corp-com/release/11031304-e.html
Fukushima Daini Nuclear Power Station: Units 1 to 4: shutdown due to earthquake
* The national government has instructed evacuation for those local residents within 10km radius of the periphery.
* At present, we have decided to prepare implementing measures to reduce the pressure of the reactor containment vessel (partial discharge of air containing radioactive materials) in order to fully secure safety. These measures are considered to be implemented in Units 1, 2 and 3 and accordingly, we have reported and/or noticed the government agencies concerned.
* Unit 3 has been stopped and being "nuclear reactor cooling hot stop" at 12:15PM.
* The operator trapped in the crane operating console of the exhaust stack was transferred to the ground at 5:13PM and confirmed the death at 5:17PM.
Richard, thanks for the post.
Big Tsunami warnings on Oregon Coast right now, I would think this applies to other places too.
Check your local news of you live on Pacific Coast NOW.
All the best to any members living in Japan. (and I know there's at least one)
Yeah, and the family and I are still here.
SITREP is all bad right now gents. The largest earthquake, which was originally reported as being 8.8 magnitude, now been officially recorder as 9.0.
They're reporting here that the core in #1 reactor was partially exposed and melting down. They tried to bleed off pressure and flood the core with sea water/boric acid, when apparently there was what they're calling a hydrogen explosion. They're reporting #3 reactor at the same plant is in the early stages of the same scenario and they're again trying the same remedy... bleed pressure and flood the core. They said another explosion at #3 is highly probable. Radius of evac has been increased around Fukushima plant, from 10km to 20km as of now.
2-3 reactors at another nearby plant are in the same state currently. Radioactive readings at both plants are above the safe limit they say, and a number of people have been contaminated. All reports seem to be vague, the officials don't seem to be able to answer questions, nor do they seem to know how to fix the situation at these plants. They're current line of thinking is that they're imposing rolling blackouts in increments of 3 hrs across the northern part of the country since they run on the same HRz, they'll divert power to the area of those plants in hopes to be able to bring the temps down in those cores.
12,000 are listed missing. 2,000 are dead so far. These are the #'s that are being broadcast by the news agencies.
100,000 Japanese military have been mobilized for SAR. Regan carrier group is supposed to be offshore sometime tonight/tomorrow AM. 31st MEU is steaming up from Malaysia for humanitarian aid also. Hopefully the JPN govt requests as much help as they can get, unlike the Kobe earthquake when they told the intl community they would handle it only to wait until the last minute to find out they were in over their heads.
I was up North from yesterday AM until this evening, with friends trying to locate their sister. It took almost 6 hrs of searching but we ended up plucking her from a shelter and taking her back home with us. Luckily she was fine. But a lot of folks aren't. It's really bad up there. I've seen photos at the Hiroshima A-bomb museum, of that city after the bomb, and where we picked her up looked spot on.
Bill, thanks for your thoughts my friend. Internet has been spotty on the hard line... will get on this forum as I can. Otherwise I'm confined to accessing the net from my mobile which surprisingly has been up and running 90% of the time.
Power/water/gas/home tel is operating at my house now, but it's hit n miss.
Keep us in your thoughts everyone.
Apart from the drama at the Daiichi plant, we have this TEPCO news release concerning the Daini plant:
http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/press/corp-com/release/11031304-e.html
* The national government has instructed evacuation for those local residents within 10km radius of the periphery.
The radius was expanded to 20km around the Fukushima plant where the 1st reactor was affected originally, as of the morning here on 3/13/11.
There's a second plant which they're saying is south of that plant, which as of now (23:18 3/13/11) has a 10km evac radius around it.
http://www.smh.com.au/environment/monster-aftershock-could-strike-within-days-20110313-1bt2p.html
NORTH-EASTERN Japan can expect another monster earthquake large enough to trigger a tsunami within days, the head of the Australian Seismological Centre says.
The director, Kevin McCue, said there had been more than 100 smaller quakes since Friday, but a larger aftershock was likely.
''Normally they happen within days,'' he said. ''The rule of thumb is that you would expect the main aftershock to be one magnitude smaller than the main shock, so you would be expecting a 7.9.
Well, ummm, actually, though the Chinese do the bulk of the eating - all over Asia -the Japanese do a significant part of the killing. And, it seems, they help with the eating, too.
http://marinebio.org/blog/?p=1530
Everyone wants to sell and do business to the Chinese to include us. If we were closer to China, I bet we would be the ones doing the killing just to make a buck.
I guess you're using a pretty broad paintbrush with your last sentence. That's like saying all Americans belong to the KKK and listen to rap music.
Shark fin soup by all means is not the meat and potatoes of Japan. In fact, I can't even remember eating it there, but I can drive ten minutes here in California down to my favorite Chinese restaurant and it's on the menu. Try to find that in your local Japanese restaurant and good luck with that. That's like trying to find a vegetarian meal in a steak house.
The answer to your question is "no."
I had events closer to home in mind <<LINK1 (http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=llsl&fileName=004/llsl004.db&recNum=458)>>, <<LINK2 (http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=llsl&fileName=004/llsl004.db&recNum=459)>>, <<RATIONALIZATION (http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=29472&st=indian&st1=removal#axzz1GRFkctAg)>>.
Sig,
What are you talking about? What question? From your below links, I have no clue, but maybe that is the point of your post in general then?:confused::(
1. A Century of Lawmaking for a New Nation: U.S. Congressional Documents and Debates, 1774 - 1875
2. A Century of Lawmaking for a New Nation: U.S. Congressional Documents and Debates, 1774 - 1875
3. Pres. Andrew Jackson's 2nd annual message
In any case, the latest from the news wires is saying this:
AP
Japan Without Water, Power, Food Amid Fears of Nuclear Meltdowns
LATEST UPDATE: People across a devastated swath of Japan suffer for a third day without water, electricity and proper food, as authorities race to combat threat of nuclear reactors and thousands are confirmed dead in the earthquake and tsunami-ravaged country.
http://www.foxnews.com/
http://www.smh.com.au/environment/monster-aftershock-could-strike-within-days-20110313-1bt2p.html
NORTH-EASTERN Japan can expect another monster earthquake large enough to trigger a tsunami within days, the head of the Australian Seismological Centre says.
The director, Kevin McCue, said there had been more than 100 smaller quakes since Friday, but a larger aftershock was likely.
''Normally they happen within days,'' he said. ''The rule of thumb is that you would expect the main aftershock to be one magnitude smaller than the main shock, so you would be expecting a 7.9.
We already had the after shock in question I believe.
The first earthquake here was a 7. something which occurred on 3/9/11. It was followed by the 9.0 quake on 3/11/11, which they're telling us triggered the tsunami. Then again on 3/11/11 we were hit with 4 additional quakes ranging from 7.0~8.0. All of these quakes occurred <200km offshore.
On 3/12/11 we were again hit by a 6.7 quake, in which the epicenter was reported as having been at a depth of 3,000 ft. directly beneath the island of Honshu.
In addition to all of these large quakes/aftershocks, we've been hit by roughly 100 or so smaller quakes which registered from 3.0~5.0 magnitude.
Personally, I'm more worried about the ongoing meltdowns at BOTH plants in Fukushima-ken. News here is reporting, and the govt is verifying, scores of people have been radiated in Fukushima-ken. The govt came out with an order to evac 20km radius of the northern plant, and 10km radius of the southern plant. They're telling evacuees to cover their bodies completely and use a wet towel to cover their mouths/noses. They're also distributing iodine in that area to lessen the effect of radiation on the thyroid. Evacuees are being taken to areas to be measured and assessed for radiation exposure. The nuclear big whigs keep coming on the news here with these conferences, where they keep repeating the same script, and when asked questions they seem to have no answers. I'd like to think they're doing the best they can given the situation, but I'm not holding my breath.
We already had the after shock in question I believe.
The first earthquake here was a 7. something which occurred on 3/9/11. It was followed by the 9.0 quake on 3/11/11, which they're telling us triggered the tsunami. Then again on 3/11/11 we were hit with 4 additional quakes ranging from 7.0~8.0. All of these quakes occurred <200km offshore.
On 3/12/11 we were again hit by a 6.7 quake, in which the epicenter was reported as having been at a depth of 3,000 ft. directly beneath the island of Honshu.
In addition to all of these large quakes/aftershocks, we've been hit by roughly 100 or so smaller quakes which registered from 3.0~5.0 magnitude.
Personally, I'm more worried about the ongoing meltdowns at BOTH plants in Fukushima-ken. News here is reporting, and the govt is verifying, scores of people have been radiated in Fukushima-ken. The govt came out with an order to evac 20km radius of the northern plant, and 10km radius of the southern plant. They're telling evacuees to cover their bodies completely and use a wet towel to cover their mouths/noses. They're also distributing iodine in that area to lessen the effect of radiation on the thyroid. Evacuees are being taken to areas to be measured and assessed for radiation exposure. The nuclear big whigs keep coming on the news here with these conferences, where they keep repeating the same script, and when asked questions they seem to have no answers. I'd like to think they're doing the best they can given the situation, but I'm not holding my breath.
The date on the article, March 14th, must be a typo, then. Whew. Thanks.
Team Sergeant
03-13-2011, 12:03
Keep an eye on the prevailing winds, it doesn't matter if you're 50-100 miles away from the reactor, if you are caught downwind when it melts down you are in big trouble. Good luck.
The date on the article, March 14th, must be a typo, then. Whew. Thanks.
No, I don't think it's a typo. I think those folks published the obvious, a couple days late.
If you read my post you'll see that we had the 1st quake here on 3/9. That quake did not produce anything other than a tsunami warning.
9.0 hit 2 days later on 3/11 that produced the big tsunami. That quake was preceded and followed by several 7.0~8.0 quakes which produced numerous tsunami in a short span of time, with epicenters in a 200km x 500km long area offshore.
It seems the US news is only reporting it as a single tsunami related to an 8.9 quake.
3/12 we got rocked by several med~large quakes, and there were in fact secondary tsunami warnings, in addition to small tsunami, ranging from 30cm~2m approx.
Keep an eye on the prevailing winds, it doesn't matter if you're 50-100 miles away from the reactor, if you are caught downwind when it melts down you are in big trouble. Good luck.
Thanks and will do.
I'm approx 300 miles SW of Fukushima-ken's reactors. But I was in Miyagi-ken, just N of Fukushima 48 hours ago picking up a friend. Luckily the wind was blowing W-E then.
Keeping my head down now until I can catch a bird out of here.
The Reaper
03-13-2011, 13:04
As a teaching moment, this could have easily happened in the U.S, particularly California.
Imagine this happened near your home, are you prepared as well as you could be?
IMHO, the lawlessness here would be much worse.
Irish, prayers out, best of luck. When you get out and get your thoughts together, if you would not mind, I would love to know what preparations you had and what you wish you had done.
This is going to take a long time to recover from, even if the nukes do not melt down and disperse further radiation.
Best wishes for those affected by this disaster.
TR
incarcerated
03-13-2011, 13:10
Prayers out. Good luck, Irish, et al.
The other possible meltdown:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/13/us-japan-economy-shirakawa-idUSTRE72C22220110313
BOJ Shirakawa pledges huge fund injection Monday
By Leika Kihara and Stanley White
TOKYO | Sun Mar 13, 2011 11:37am EDT
TOKYO (Reuters) - Bank of Japan Governor Masaaki Shirakawa said the central bank will provide huge amounts of liquidity to the banking system on Monday, reinforcing the bank's determination to keep markets stable in the wake of the devastating earthquake that struck northeastern Japan.
Economics Minister Kaoru Yosano also said the government will fight decisively against speculative moves and will not tolerate short-selling to take advantage of the quake.
"We will monitor market conditions and plan to provide markets with a lot of liquidity first thing tomorrow morning," Shirakawa told reporters after attending a meeting of cabinet ministers for discussion on the economy on Sunday.
The BOJ is likely to provide 2 trillion to 3 trillion yen in funds through its market operations Monday morning, two to three times the normal amount, to soothe markets and keep short-term borrowing costs from spiking….
FWIW, the New York Times has an interactive feature showing before/after satellite photographs available here (http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/03/13/world/asia/satellite-photos-japan-before-and-after-tsunami.html?src=ISMR_AP_LO_MST_FB). The vertical bar in the middle of the image allows viewers to maximize/minimize the before/after photos.
May the people of Japan hold to the best of their cultural traditions in this time of hardship.
No, I don't think it's a typo. I think those folks published the obvious, a couple days late.
If you read my post you'll see that we had the 1st quake here on 3/9. That quake did not produce anything other than a tsunami warning.
9.0 hit 2 days later on 3/11 that produced the big tsunami. That quake was preceded and followed by several 7.0~8.0 quakes which produced numerous tsunami in a short span of time, with epicenters in a 200km x 500km long area offshore.
It seems the US news is only reporting it as a single tsunami related to an 8.9 quake.
3/12 we got rocked by several med~large quakes, and there were in fact secondary tsunami warnings, in addition to small tsunami, ranging from 30cm~2m approx.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/03/12/earlyshow/saturday/main20042429.shtml
(CBS News) An expert says people in Japan should brace for aftershocks from Friday's devastating earthquake which, she says, could go on "for years," though they'd get weaker as time goes on.
Dr. Marcia McNutt, director of the U.S. Geological Survey, told "The Early Show on Saturday Morning" co-anchor Rebecca Jarvis that the 8.9-magnitude temblor's power could provide electricity for a city the size of Los Angeles "for an entire year."
The aftershocks, she said, are "the unnerving part of it" in that it's not "just the five minutes of shaking from this earthquake, but it keeps going on and on and on, in terms of disrupting the lives of not only the citizens, but the relief workers. There's something called Omori's Law, which governs the aftershocks, that there's aftershocks on Day One. And half as many aftershocks on Day Two. And one-third as many aftershocks on Day Three. And it keeps going on for literally years afterwards, disrupting the lives."
" ... The aftershocks themselves could bring down buildings that have already been stressed by the main shock itself. And they will hamper the efforts of the relief workers. "
How long could this last?
"It will taper off in time," McNutt responded, "but it could go on for years."
McNutt says efforts are on-going to get an earthquake warning system in place.
"Science," she pointed out, "tells us that it's very difficult to predict earthquakes. But, of course, this earthquake was preceded by foreshocks. And we are trying to install something called the Advanced National Seismic System, which can give an advanced warning of an event like this, which would allow safe shutdown of systems, electrical systems, gas systems, which can lessen the impact of an event just like this."
Tree Potato
03-13-2011, 13:39
Thanks and will do.
I'm approx 300 miles SW of Fukushima-ken's reactors. But I was in Miyagi-ken, just N of Fukushima 48 hours ago picking up a friend. Luckily the wind was blowing W-E then.
Keeping my head down now until I can catch a bird out of here.
FYI, computer models indicate winds may soon become unfavorable for about 24 hours. Starting approx 1800GMT/14 Mar winds from surface to approx 5,000 ft may turn and become northeasterly (ie., from NE toward SW), with speeds around 20 kts at first, then decreasing to 5-10 kts by 1800GMT/15 Mar when it should return to offshore flow in the low levels. Above 5,000 ft the winds should continue to blow offshore.
Timing of computer models can be an issue; in this case the winds would turn within a few hours after a band of dense cloud and precip moves in.
300 miles SW is probably safe, as most particulates would fall out or be dispersed by then (esp since there will be some rain during the time in question); but recommend not getting closer for the next couple days unless it's to catch a flight out.
Irish, feel free to pm me for updates (readily admit to being a professional military weatherdork).
As a teaching moment, this could have easily happened in the U.S, particularly California.
Imagine this happened near your home, are you prepared as well as you could be?
IMHO, the lawlessness here would be much worse.
Irish, prayers out, best of luck. When you get out and get your thoughts together, if you would not mind, I would love to know what preparations you had and what you wish you had done.
This is going to take a long time to recover from, even if the nukes do not melt down and disperse further radiation.
Best wishes for those affected by this disaster.
TR
I thought we didn't build Nuke Plants on Earthquake zones.
I thought we didn't build Nuke Plants on Earthquake zones.On the contrary <<LINK1 (http://www.energy.ca.gov/nuclear/california.html)>>, <<LINK2 (http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/states/california/seismicity.php)>>.:(
incarcerated
03-13-2011, 14:34
I thought we didn't build Nuke Plants on Earthquake zones.
You obviously don’t live in Kalifornia, where we do things, uh, differently…
Could they be in parts of CA not effected by Earthquakes. Or is there such a place.
Could they be in parts of CA not effected by Earthquakes. Or is there such a place.San Onofre, pictured here (http://taxdollars.ocregister.com/files/2008/07/san-onofre-beachgoers.jpg) :) is about halfway between the TMZ and San Diego--well within reach of 'the Big One.'
As a teaching moment, this could have easily happened in the U.S, particularly California. Imagine this happened near your home, are you prepared as well as you could be? IMHO, the lawlessness here would be much worse.
TR,
Yes similar thoughts here, first seeing that chilling video of the wave in Japan, that is not a fate I would wish on anyone, second as a resident of the Ring of Fire, I am going back to the "Be Prepared" thread and working further on the go bag, and disaster plan etc. As the residents of Tokyo found out, natural disaster can come out of the blue, something I think folks who live in urban areas are more apt to discount.
There were folks on the West Coast who actually got in trouble by heading out to the beach to see the big waves, and a few rocket scientists wanted to be able to say they "surfed the Tsunami".
A possible long term development of the Japan Tsunami IMO, is sustained delays in weaning ourselves off dependence on fossil fuel as an energy source. After Three Mile Island, Chernobyl, and however bad the Japan situation turns out, enthusiasm and public support for expanding nuclear power plants as future energy sources will likely wane for the time being?
incarcerated
03-13-2011, 16:29
Could they be in parts of CA not effected by Earthquakes. Or is there such a place.
No, that would be too easy.
Diablo Canyon is located roughly five miles below Morro Bay
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=diablo+canyon+power+plant,+ca&aq=&sll=35.42179,-120.857849&sspn=0.083373,0.273285&ie=UTF8&hq=diablo+canyon+power+plant,&hnear=California&ll=35.210844,-120.852356&spn=0.167182,0.54657&t=h&z=11
which is not tremendously far from the faults shown here:
http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/recenteqscanv/FaultMaps/120-35.html
and
http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/recenteqscanv/FaultMaps/121-36.html
At least it's not real close to these:
http://www.earthquakecountry.info/roots/image11839-1791.html
incarcerated
03-13-2011, 17:03
The CA plants do not need a natural disaster to have a mess. Check out the missing fuel rod fiasco. They say it was poor records but at the end of the day they still do not know what happend to the missing fuel rods.
http://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collections/enforcement/actions/materials/ea05166.html
Yup. We're special.
:mad:
incarcerated
03-13-2011, 20:09
Here we go...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/03/13/AR2011031303805.html
Japanese markets plummet as nation deals with damage, power shortages
By Howard Schneider
Sunday, March 13, 2011; 9:11 PM
Japanese stock markets fell more than 5 percent Monday as the country's manufacturers shuttered plants to assess damage and deal with power shortages, and the nation's economy wrestled with the impact of not only a natural disaster but lingering concerns about nuclear safety.
The Nikkei index of of major Tokyo Stock Exchange companies fell sharply as trading opened for the first full day since the earthquake and tsunami struck Friday. The impact around the world will be watched closely for signs of how a new round of economic uncertainty is received by markets balancing a U.S. economic recovery with rising oil prices and other emerging risks.
The world's third-largest economy was hobbled by a crisis that will challenge its financial system and energy infrastructure, as well as its capacity for dealing with a humanitarian disaster....
The insured property losses from the quake could amount to between $14 billion and $35 billion, according to Air Worldwide, a risk consulting company.
Japan is already groaning under government debt equal to twice its yearly economic output, proportionally the world's largest load, but analysts said the country should have the financial muscle to deal with the reconstruction.
"Japan has the immediate fiscal space to respond to this tragedy," said Mohamed El-Erian, chief executive officer of investment fund Pimco....
In its most recent detailed analysis of Japan, the IMF said it was concerned that any disruption to Japan's tentative return to economic growth could send the country into a deep deflationary spiral, with wages, prices and investment falling, and households and businesses reluctant to spend on the expectation that they will fall even more. Although Japan's economy, with its aging population and stagnant incomes, is not a driving source of world demand for goods and services, it does play an important role in world trade, and a renewed recession there could deal a broader blow to confidence in the recovery....
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704893604576199200013430230.html
Japan Leads Asia Stocks Down Early Monday
ASIA MARKETS
MARCH 13, 2011, 9:22 P.M. ET
By ROSALIND MATHIESON
SINGAPORE—Tokyo shares fell sharply in early trade Monday after the massive quake that struck Japan and caused a destructive tsunami, while shares in the rest of the region were also weakening.
Investors were watching closely to see how foreign investors responded; the quake hit late Friday just before Tokyo stock markets closed, so many investors wouldn't have had a chance to react....
"While we do not yet anticipate a major downward revision in the economic and earnings forecasts for the next fiscal year, the impact of this quake is unmeasurable for now," said Kazuhiro Takahashi, general manager at Daiwa Securities Capital Markets, who added the index could easily fall to 9700 points....
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/03/13/estimated-10-foot-tsunami-seen-japan-helicopter/
Published March 13, 2011 | Associated Press
DEVELOPING: Soldiers and officials in northeastern Japan are warning residents that the area could be hit by another tsunami and are ordering residents to higher ground.
Sirens around the town of Soma went off late Monday morning and public address systems ordered residents to higher ground.
Kyodo News Agency said the tsunami could be 10 feet (3 meters) high, citing Fukushima prefectural officials.
An Associated Press reporter stood about 100 yards (100 meters) from the coast.
The area was hit by a massive quake and tsunami on Friday.
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/03/13/estimated-10-foot-tsunami-seen-japan-helicopter/#ixzz1GXPvm0Jw
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42056237/ns/world_news-asiapacific/
News agencies here have reported that the #3 reactor at the North plant has exploded. They've ordered evac of 600 people with 20km of the area, but, they're calling it a "Stay inside evac". But at the same time they're saying the levels of radiation are "safe".
Currently they're planning to instate scheduled blackouts, in 3hr increments, but they've been arguing for 24 hours now on how they can coordinate the different regions schedules, what will get cut/what won't, and if it will even do any good since the infrastructure in 3 prefectures was whiped out.
Miyagi prefectural officials have announced that 10,000 people are believed to be dead in Miyagi prefecture alone.
incarcerated
03-13-2011, 22:09
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/asia-pacific/japans-central-bank-boosts-liquidity-injection-to-1838-billion-as-stocks-plunge/article1940416/
Japan's central bank boosts liquidity injection to $183.8 billion
Yuri KageYama
Tokyo— The Associated Press
Published Sunday, Mar. 13, 2011 8:03PM EDT
Last updated Monday, Mar. 14, 2011 12:01AM EDT
Japan's central bank says it is injecting a record 15 trillion yen ($183.8 billion) into money markets to stabilize the financial system after a devastating earthquake and tsunami.
The figure is more than double the 7 trillion yen the Bank of Japan had announced earlier in the day.
The emergency move comes as the Tokyo stock market plunges nearly 6 per cent, and worries grew about the economic impact of Friday's earthquake and tsunami....
http://www.facebook.com/notes/us-7th-fleet/7th-fleet-repositions-ships-after-contamination-detected/10150156064708615
incarcerated
03-13-2011, 23:40
As a teaching moment, this could have easily happened in the U.S, particularly California.
Imagine this happened near your home, are you prepared as well as you could be?
IMHO, the lawlessness here would be much worse.
Irish, prayers out, best of luck. When you get out and get your thoughts together, if you would not mind, I would love to know what preparations you had and what you wish you had done.
This is going to take a long time to recover from, even if the nukes do not melt down and disperse further radiation.
Best wishes for those affected by this disaster.
TR
Via Free Republic:
Nine earthquakes of magnitude 4.0 or better in the Gulf of California since noon on Saturday 3/12.
http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/recenteqsus/Maps/US10/22.32.-115.-105.php
http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/recenteqsus/Maps/US10/22.32.-115.-105_eqs.php
This list is worth a look, if you haven’t already done so:
http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/recenteqsww/Quakes/quakes_big.php
Current local activity, for all of you non-Kalis, looking fairly normal ;
http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/recenteqscanv/
incarcerated
03-14-2011, 02:13
This seems to refer to the Daiichi plant:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/03/14/3163747.htm?section=world
Japan nuclear plant in crisis as cooling fails
Updated 13 minutes ago
- AFP/Reuters
A Japanese nuclear power plant remains in crisis following Friday's massive earthquake and tsunami, with an explosion at a second reactor and cooling functions failing at a third.
The plant's operator, Tokyo Electric Power (TEPCO), says the cooling system at the No. 2 reactor at its Fukushima plant has now failed, Jiji Press reported....
News conference here about 15 minutes ago. Govt said the fuel rods are exposed in #2 reactor at the North plant, and they've begun to flood the core with seawater, but they expect that #2 reactor will explode.
Temps are rising, and according to Fox there was an explosion at the #2 reactor reported by witnesses. 6:05 CST. The Japanese govt has confirmed this...very high levels of radiation being reported.
God help them all.
greenberetTFS
03-14-2011, 17:27
Just got finished watching Diane Sawyer in Japan and one thing she mentioned was that there was NO LOOTING and people were waiting in lines for hours with NO ARGUING,NO FIGHTING just patiently waiting for food and water..........:) Much different then what I saw here in New Orleans after Katrina........:(
Big Teddy :munchin
Snaquebite
03-14-2011, 17:31
Just got finished watching Diane Sawyer in Japan and one thing see mentioned was that there was NO LOOTING and people were waiting in lines for hours with NO ARGUING,NO FIGHTING just patiently waiting for food and water..........:) Much different then what I saw here in New Orleans after Katrina........:(
Big Teddy :munchin
Got this in an e-mail the other day....
Japan is not Haiti ....
Here is what to expect in the coming months out of the disaster that has affected Northeast Japan:
How do I know .... I was living just outside of Kobe when the monstrous jishin (earthquake) hit in January 1995 and virtually destroyed the center of a major Japanese City killing 6,600 people covering a 20 mile swath. I was right in the middle.
Down the street from where I lived a 7 story apartment building ended up being 4 stories. My next door neighbor died from a collapsed roof.
When the quake hit, I thought it was a bomb going off.
Here's what didn't happen:
There was no looting or breaking into food stores There was no time for trying to blame anyone There was no one cutting in the front of the line to get water.
There were no calls lawyers
Here is what did happen:
The people in the Kobe Area were not waiting around for a US Aircraft Carrier The Military was deployed immediately to dig and search.
The Yakuza (Japanese Mafia) were the early suppliers of medical supplies and food (They had the connections and the means to get the material to the folks Within days Temporary housing was being constructed all over the Area Within days portable showers and toilet facilities were set up all over the Area Within days, supermarkets were opened and the queues stretched endlessly as they could only let a few people in the stores at a time. There was no anger, yelling, blaming, looting, cutting in front Within hours ... clean-up began by everyone .. students, teachers, seniors, yakuza, politicians. Everyone seemed to be contributing in some way.
As a foreigner, I was treated like everyone else ....
Result:
By the time I left Japan 4 years later, I would say 90 % of the entire City of Kobe had been rebuilt .... and consider that New York has been unable to erect a couple of building at ground zero now going on 10 years.
So like I said, Japan is not Haiti..... nor New Orleans. They don't need us ... that is not to say they would not be unappreciative of any assistance. Probably the best thing we can do is provide portable medical facilities and staffing if requested and search sniffing dogs.
Erroll XXXXXX
Nightmare come true for the whole world.
Aye...'tis at that.
Big Teddy, I had the same thoughts.
Sig,
What are you talking about? What question? From your below links, I have no clue, but maybe that is the point of your post in general then?:confused::(
1. A Century of Lawmaking for a New Nation: U.S. Congressional Documents and Debates, 1774 - 1875
2. A Century of Lawmaking for a New Nation: U.S. Congressional Documents and Debates, 1774 - 1875
3. Pres. Andrew Jackson's 2nd annual messageThe links are to primary source materials so that you can answer the question you posed above.
Nightmare come true for the whole world.
That's an opinion - I would wager that the situation in Japan is viewed more as an opportunity to some than the nightmare you claim.
And so it goes...
Richard :munchin
Prime Minister came on TV just now and said that a fire has broke out in #4 reactor and it has been determined to have exploded and is a now leaking radiation. 30 minutes after that explosion, an explosion was heard at #2 reactor as well. It has been determined that #2 reactor has exploded as well. All 4 reactors have exploded now and are leaking radiation.... 400 millisievert. Now they have ordered people living in 30km radius of the plants to stay inside, do not open windows or use ventillation systems. The govt is continuing to flood all 4 reactors with seawater now.
ApacheIP
03-14-2011, 21:11
Before and after photos, scroll into center of pic and move center line to reveal the before and after shots. Pretty amazing.
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/03/13/world/asia/satellite-photos-japan-before-and-after-tsunami.html
Edited - I know Sigaba linked it earlier, but there is now a before and after of one of the nuke plants and a few other shots that were updated today. A sort of cheap "back to the top".
Tree Potato
03-14-2011, 21:58
Looks like the shit really hit the fan now. Not sure why staying indoors is going to help. They need to evac the area unless they realize folks are screwed there and they are only trying to keep the contamination contained.
As with many situations, it depends.
If exposure rates are greater than 5 REM, people really need to evacuate and seek immediate medical attention; if less than 5 REM, sheltering indoors to limit contact with or inhalation of fallout can be a prudent measure to minimize risk until people can be properly evacuated and deconned. Evacuating during fallout of 1-5 REM exposure range could potentially be more hazardous than waiting indoors for it to fall out (with windows closed, no air circulation) and carefully egressing once the bulk has dropped out. Since rain is expected, it may also be prudent to wait until precip scrubs particulates from the air and rinses dust into puddles, making travel safer.
To a lesser extent, time of day may be a concern as well. There needs to be enough daylight time for people who are already tired and weak to move the needed distance; if they can only make it part way and are left exposed outdoors they may be worse off than staying put until sunrise in an enclosed shelter.
incarcerated
03-14-2011, 22:45
Nine earthquakes of magnitude 4.0 or better in the Gulf of California since noon on Saturday 3/12.
http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/recenteqsus/Maps/US10/22.32.-115.-105.php
http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/recenteqsus/Maps/US10/22.32.-115.-105_eqs.php
The number is now up to eleven since noon on Saturday. This activity is on the San Andreas Fault.
Per Reaper's comment on preparedness, I have a friend who is at Misawa right now. She's able to blog every once in a while and she's had some interesting things to say about being prepared. I'll post excerpts of what she's written below in blue. I've edited it down a bit to keep it relevant to the discussion. This is from a couple days ago.
The earthquakes (aftershocks) haven't stopped and I spent all night last night having nightmares about running from collapsing and buckling buildings. The kids are on edge and tantrums are at an all time high. They keep busy playing during the day, but when it gets dark and we have to ration flashlights and candles it gets extra hard to keep the peace.
A few things I've been wanting to tell people and note for the future:
*Get an old school, corded phone. If the power goes out, your cordless wont work.
*Speaking of accountability, in an emergency, if you're going to leave your house--leave a note on the door saying where you are going so when guys from church or work coming looking, they'll know where you are.
*When the power went out, people off base couldn't get their cars out of their garage. Turns out there is a special crank to use but most of our friends didn't have it or know what it was.
*We've been cooking with our camping equipment. Note to self: Buy a 20 pack of small propane tanks. We've also used our outdoor BBQ (in the cold) and I'm wishing I had a spare tank of Propane for that. (We still don't have power and don't know when it will come back on On Base. Estimates have said 24 hours (we're way past that) to 1 week, to indefinite.)
*Do you have an extra refill of your prescriptions in your 72 hour kit? It's terrifying to imagine running out of the things you take every day. Also, the thought of my kids getting sick and not having enough Children's Advil and/or Tylenol made me pretty nervous until I verified we had some of each.
*For ONCE I was glad to be doing Dave Ramsey yesterday when we had plenty of cash on hand to shop at the commissary. But we also have a cash and yen emergency fund hidden in the house for back-up which was very comforting.
*While I'm making notes to myself: Buy a hand crank wheat grinder and blender! (We have a freezer full of frozen fruit to make smoothies but no way to blend anything.)
*Flashlights are a pain in my butt. All of our stupid Rayovac crappy-crap batteries that I had stored for an emergency, LEAKED! So the flashlights are all slowly dying, being over used by the children, and being misplaced. The best source of light the last two nights has been the pillar candles I've had in the cupboard for fancy table settings. They seem to burn pretty slow and shed a lot of light. I've gone through 3 and have 1 left. Wish I had a 20 pack of those in my 72 hour pack. It would be nice not to worry about running out. Small, light weight, energy efficient lanterns would be nice too.
*Also, my next house will have a wood burning fire place. This all would have been much easier if we could have been warm.
*Also, I'm buying all my kids a down comforter. We have one on our bed and we've been fine at night, but the kids need 20 blankets piled up to stay warm. (Actually, the two big boys each have a two layer fleece blanket which is pretty warm, but unfortunately, they're not very big.)
(Poor little Gray had to spend yesterday in his snow suit to stay warm. The poor little guy must be sensing the stress because he's been quite out of sorts. He's always shivering (even when bundled) and very clingy. The kids are all confused and upset but mostly hanging in there.
They do have electricity, water and internet back up on Misawa now. In regards to preparedness this is what she's most recently written:
*F.Y.PrepardnessI.: When I went to the commissary on Saturday, this is what was gone or going fast: Peanut Butter was going fast. (And I cleaned out the last of the Nutella.) Paper Products--the shelves were empty. Batteries--all gone. Bottled Water and Charcoal--they brought some more out from the back while I was there and it immediately disappeared. Candles --I don't know what kind of candle selection they usually have, but I couldn't find any. (Doug said the "Book Mart"--which just re-opened today--was selling them, but only allowed two per family.) The diaper selection was getting pretty picked over and I imagine the formula was all gone. Not many people were buying cold stuff (since it was sitting there warming up) but the bread shelves were bare.
*Oh yeah: Don't forget to put some card games and kid entertainment in those 72 hour kits. The kids around here were going through electronics withdrawal and many were starting to twitch.
incarcerated
03-15-2011, 00:11
The kids are on edge and tantrums are at an all time high.
Shar, you can tell her that, if it’s any consolation, we’re on edge and having tantrums over here, too.
http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20110315-700222.html
2nd UPDATE: Tokyo Shares Slump 14.4% As Nuclear Emergency Worsens; Widespread Selling
MARCH 15, 2011, 12:26 A.M. ET
By Brad Frischkorn Of DOW JONES NEWSWIRES
TOKYO (Dow Jones)--Shares in Japan went into freefall Tuesday as the country's prime minister warned of a high risk of elevated levels of radiation from a reactor at the Fukushima nuclear power plant after another explosion earlier in the day, with the main stock index slumping 14.4% in afternoon trade.
Bargain hunters were swept aside by the selling with the benchmark Nikkei Stock Average recently at 8257.56, its lowest level since April 2009.
The market was at risk of further weakness as the Nikkei June futures contract continued to drop. The declines were exacerbated by news of a fire at Tokyo Electric Power's No. 4 reactor at the Fukushima Daiichi plant in northeastern Japan and amid reports radiation has spiked near the No. 3 reactor. The market was quickly towards key support at 8000 points....
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/15/us-japan-economy-boj-idUSTRE72E05920110315?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews
BOJ pumps more funds into banking system
By Leika Kihara and Rie Ishiguro
TOKYO | Tue Mar 15, 2011 1:45am EDT
....The Bank of Japan on Tuesday offered to pump 8 trillion yen ($98 billion) into the banking system, continuing its huge fund injection aimed at easing market jitters in the face escalating nuclear crisis and fears of unprecedented damage from the earthquake.
It follows a record 15 trillion yen the BOJ offered in same-day market operations on Monday....
greenberetTFS
03-15-2011, 01:04
Even if there were looting outside media would not report it.
Think of it this way also. Why would CNN pick up a story about looting, when people in America want to hear about the recovery effort. Any stories on looting are in the Japanese media, and no news corp pays attention to them when they have their own employees over there.
LG,
Go to post #86 for your response......... :rolleyes: Diane Sawyer doesn't report for CNN........:eek:
Big Teddy :munchin
As with many situations, it depends.
If exposure rates are greater than 5 REM, people really need to evacuate and seek immediate medical attention; if less than 5 REM, sheltering indoors to limit contact with or inhalation of fallout can be a prudent measure to minimize risk until people can be properly evacuated and deconned. Evacuating during fallout of 1-5 REM exposure range could potentially be more hazardous than waiting indoors for it to fall out (with windows closed, no air circulation) and carefully egressing once the bulk has dropped out. Since rain is expected, it may also be prudent to wait until precip scrubs particulates from the air and rinses dust into puddles, making travel safer.
To a lesser extent, time of day may be a concern as well. There needs to be enough daylight time for people who are already tired and weak to move the needed distance; if they can only make it part way and are left exposed outdoors they may be worse off than staying put until sunrise in an enclosed shelter.
I dunno about REM. They're telling us that the measured value around the plant is 400 millisievert. Now, I dunno what a millisievert is either, but they say at 100 millisievert it's bad for your health at the immediate time of exposure. The govt has repeatedly stated that 4x that amount is very bad.
Also, I agree.... seems they're keeping those folks in place. May be good move may not be. But they say the levels on the millisievert scale are rising around that plant, so it seems to me you'd wanna get people out. Unless getting them out meant risk to others. What they're saying is that if you're inside and you close yourself off to the outside, then your chances of becoming exposed to the atmospheric radiation are less than if you had contact with outside air.
Now the news is reporting that for a 10 minute period, radiation levels higher than normal, were recorded in downtown Tokyo and other areas of that region.... after the 10 minutes the level returned to what is considered a normal level.
As if it couldn't get worse, red sand blew in today from China, and a volcano in Miyazaki prefecture of Kyushu has erupted.
Temps around the North are expected to drop off sharply tonight, into freezing levels, and rain/snow is expected.
Tree Potato
03-15-2011, 01:38
Been dealing with the tragedy in Japan for a few days at work now, so please pardon any incoherence of this post as it's entirely sleep deprivation induced (catching a full night of z's soon, so will bring a fresh brain to the mission tomorrow).
Regarding the nuclear power aspect of this tragedy, highly recommend reading this, and previous days, updates: http://bravenewclimate.com/2011/03/15/fukushima-15-march-summary/
Probably the most even-headed discussions of what really happened out there.
The situation surrounding the Fukushima Nuclear Accident, triggered by Japan’s largest recorded earthquake and the resulting 10 m high tsunami, continues to develop rapidly. This post is intended to be a concise update of the situation as of 12pm Japan Standard Time, 15 March 2011.
This is followed by a sufficiently detailed status update of each reactor, omitted here for brevity, and then this commentary:
Finally, a telling comment from a friend of mine in the US nuclear research community:
The lesson so far: Japan suffered an earthquake and tsunami of unprecedented proportion that has caused unbelievable damage to every part of their infrastructure, and death of very large numbers of people. The media have chosen to report the damage to a nuclear plant which was, and still is, unlikely to harm anyone. We won’t know for sure, of course, until the last measure to assure cooling is put in place, but that’s the likely outcome. You’d never know it from the parade of interested anti-nuclear activists identified as “nuclear experts” on TV.
From the early morning Saturday nuclear activists were on TV labelling this ‘the third worst nuclear accident ever’. This was no accident, this was damage caused by truly one of the worst of earthquakes and tsunamis ever. (The reported sweeping away of four entire trains, including a bullet train which apparently disappeared without a trace, was not labelled “the third worst train accident ever.”) An example of the reporting: A fellow from one of the universities, and I didn’t note which one, obviously an engineer and a knowlegable one, was asked a question and began to explain quite sensibly what was likely. He was cut off after about a minute, maybe less, and an anti-nuke, very glib, and very poorly informed, was brought on. With ponderous solemnity, he then made one outrageous and incorrect statement after another. He was so good at it they held him over for another segment
The second lesson is to the engineers: We all know that the water reactor has one principal characteristic when it shuts down that has to be looked after. It must have water to flow around the fuel rods and be able to inject it into the reactor if some is lost by a sticking relief valve or from any other cause – for this, it must have backup power to power the pumps and injection systems.
The designers apparently could not imagine a tsunami of these proportions and the backup power — remember, the plants themselves produce power, power is brought in by multiple outside power lines, there are banks of diesels to produce backup power, and finally, banks of batteries to back that up, all were disabled. There’s still a lot the operators can do, did and are doing. But reactors were damaged and may not have needed to be even by this unthinkable earthquake if they had designed the backup power systems to be impregnable, not an impossible thing for an engineer to do. So we have damage that probably could have been avoided, and reporting of almost stunning inaccuracy and ignorance. Still, the odds are that no one will be hurt from radioactivity — a few workers from falling or in the hydrogen explosions, but tiny on the scale of the damage and killing around it.
It seems pathetic that Russia should be the only reported adult in this — they’re quoted as saying “Of course our nuclear program is not going to be affected by an earthquake in Japan.” Japan has earthquakes. But perhaps it will be, if the noise is loud enough.
Along with the above, the following article is very informative: http://bravenewclimate.com/2011/03/13/fukushima-simple-explanation/
I am writing this text (Mar 12) to give you some peace of mind regarding some of the troubles in Japan, that is the safety of Japan’s nuclear reactors. Up front, the situation is serious, but under control. And this text is long! But you will know more about nuclear power plants after reading it than all journalists on this planet put together.
There was and will *not* be any significant release of radioactivity.
(note-this was as of 12 Mar...)
By “significant” I mean a level of radiation of more than what you would receive on – say – a long distance flight, or drinking a glass of beer that comes from certain areas with high levels of natural background radiation.
I have been reading every news release on the incident since the earthquake. There has not been one single (!) report that was accurate and free of errors (and part of that problem is also a weakness in the Japanese crisis communication). By “not free of errors” I do not refer to tendentious anti-nuclear journalism – that is quite normal these days. By “not free of errors” I mean blatant errors regarding physics and natural law, as well as gross misinterpretation of facts, due to an obvious lack of fundamental and basic understanding of the way nuclear reactors are build and operated. I have read a 3 page report on CNN where every single paragraph contained an error.
We will have to cover some fundamentals, before we get into what is going on.
After this the article describes:
- Construction of the Fukushima nuclear power plants
- Fundamentals of nuclear reactions
- What happened at Fukushima
- A summary..."where does that leave us?"
Tree Potato
03-15-2011, 02:18
I dunno about REM. They're telling us that the measured value around the plant is 400 millisievert. Now, I dunno what a millisievert is either, but they say at 100 millisievert it's bad for your health at the immediate time of exposure. The govt has repeatedly stated that 4x that amount is very bad.
Also, I agree.... seems they're keeping those folks in place. May be good move may not be. But they say the levels on the millisievert scale are rising around that plant, so it seems to me you'd wanna get people out. Unless getting them out meant risk to others. What they're saying is that if you're inside and you close yourself off to the outside, then your chances of becoming exposed to the atmospheric radiation are less than if you had contact with outside air.
Now the news is reporting that for a 10 minute period, radiation levels higher than normal, were recorded in downtown Tokyo and other areas of that region.... after the 10 minutes the level returned to what is considered a normal level.
As if it couldn't get worse, red sand blew in today from China, and a volcano in Miyazaki prefecture of Kyushu has erupted.
Temps around the North are expected to drop off sharply tonight, into freezing levels, and rain/snow is expected.
1 milliseivert = 0.1 REM
Immediately around the plant the levels are high, but evacuation out to 20 km has already taken place. There's a lot of mis-communication or errors in comm going on in getting info out to the public, especially for those not speaking Japanese. That's not to say I'd like to be there...heck no I wouldn't, and 20 km would be too close for my comfort...but it appears at the 20 km radius the radiation level is at or less than 1 milliseivert or 0.1 REM. For comparison a CT scan of the chest, abdomen, or pelvis gives a dose of about 1.8 REM; a typical mammogram dose is about 0.4 REM; a typical chest X-ray dose is about 0.01 REM. So is it a risk? Yes, it is radiation above background level; but ladies get about 4x that REM dose each time they get painfully squished by their local practitioner.
The spike in readings in Tokyo are a result of the onshore flow and an eddy carrying some of the plume across the Kanto plain. Fortunately by Wed am the winds should turn again and return to an offshore flow, and fairly strong at that.
In this case with the plume hovering in the area briefly, then blowing back out to sea I'd be inclined to remain indoors until the remaining airborne particles were blown away. But I'm not there, and certainly couldn't fault the logic of anyone trying to gain distance from the source as in most cases with radiation, distance = safety. It's easy to say what we'd do from here; not so easy when faced with it.
1 milliseivert = 0.1 REM
Immediately around the plant the levels are high, but evacuation out to 20 km has already taken place. There's a lot of mis-communication or errors in comm going on in getting info out to the public, especially for those not speaking Japanese. That's not to say I'd like to be there...heck no I wouldn't, and 20 km would be too close for my comfort...but it appears at the 20 km radius the radiation level is at or less than 1 milliseivert or 0.1 REM. For comparison a CT scan of the chest, abdomen, or pelvis gives a dose of about 1.8 REM; a typical mammogram dose is about 0.4 REM; a typical chest X-ray dose is about 0.01 REM. So is it a risk? Yes, it is radiation above background level; but ladies get about 4x that REM dose each time they get painfully squished by their local practitioner.
The spike in readings in Tokyo are a result of the onshore flow and an eddy carrying some of the plume across the Kanto plain. Fortunately by Wed am the winds should turn again and return to an offshore flow, and fairly strong at that.
In this case with the plume hovering in the area briefly, then blowing back out to sea I'd be inclined to remain indoors until the remaining airborne particles were blown away. But I'm not there, and certainly couldn't fault the logic of anyone trying to gain distance from the source as in most cases with radiation, distance = safety. It's easy to say what we'd do from here; not so easy when faced with it.
Thanks for the info.
They're reporting that the sievert level near the plant are falling compared to this AM's readings, but that the temperature inside the plant's reactors is continuing to rise since the fuel rods are still exposed. They've increased the evac radius around the plant to 30km, but evac means remain indoors still. They released info on the exact measure of radiation found in Tokyo... saying it was something around 5 microsievert/hour, for a 10 minute period, then returning to normal.
I speak Japanese fluently, so I understand what they're saying. That's proving to be the frustrating part though. They don't sound very confident in their plans. Actually, they don't sound like they have a plan. Only containment. Then again, what can they do I guess.
Got this in an e-mail the other day....
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/edwest/100079703/why-is-there-no-looting-in-japan/
The Japanese have common decency and honor; rare traits in New Orleans.
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/edwest/100079703/why-is-there-no-looting-in-japan/
The Japanese have common decency and honor; rare traits in New Orleans.
Without bringing a shit storm upon myself (as if I currently need my situation to get worse) I think that article really typifies how the society is here. Reminds me of what my father told me a long time ago, "Be mindful... your reputation will precede you". The average passer through/tourist won't see it/really comprehend it until you live among/interact with these people on day to day basis over a long period of time. Once you begin to do business with these folks, deal with the municipalities, you get a sense of how they operate over here. Everything that article states, and everything people are saying about New Orleans vs. Japanese residents with regards to Katrina is spot on IMHO. I won't compare New Orleans to Japan because I know it's apples and oranges. All I can say is that there's a certain level of personal pride here... something called "giri-ninjo". It's hard to explain what that means in english, but it's the common thread which Japanese people have lived by for thousands of years. America is what.... 300-400 years old at best? Not to get off topic, but America has no real set cultural identity of it's own in this regard. To add to that, you had a large number of folks show their backside to most of the free world during Katrina... kinda hard to live that down.
Tree Potato
03-15-2011, 13:17
Without bringing a shit storm upon myself (as if I currently need my situation to get worse) I think that article really typifies how the society is here. Reminds me of what my father told me a long time ago, "Be mindful... your reputation will precede you". The average passer through/tourist won't see it/really comprehend it until you live among/interact with these people on day to day basis over a long period of time. Once you begin to do business with these folks, deal with the municipalities, you get a sense of how they operate over here. Everything that article states, and everything people are saying about New Orleans vs. Japanese residents with regards to Katrina is spot on IMHO. I won't compare New Orleans to Japan because I know it's apples and oranges. All I can say is that there's a certain level of personal pride here... something called "giri-ninjo". It's hard to explain what that means in english, but it's the common thread which Japanese people have lived by for thousands of years. America is what.... 300-400 years old at best? Not to get off topic, but America has no real set cultural identity of it's own in this regard. To add to that, you had a large number of folks show their backside to most of the free world during Katrina... kinda hard to live that down.
Irish is spot on. I've dealt with the Japanese on/off professionally since 1995; never assigned there, but have traveled Japan extensively. The consideration for others, knowing that it will be returned in kind, is pervasive and comforting. When new travelers from our shop are headed to Japan by themselves and worry about getting lost, we collectively giggle...all you need to do is pull out something that looks like a map and look puzzled and within moments a stranger will offer to assist. It really is unique to Japan as well; or possibly just more obvious and prevalent than elsewhere in Asia. It really sinks in when you see a 10 or 12 year old girl alone on the train at midnight and realize she is safer than in daytime in most cities elsewhere. The influence on Hawaiian culture is interesting too...for example, despite road congestion Hawaiian drivers are the kindest and most courteous drivers of any state. It's no surprise looting isn't a problem in Japan.
Tree Potato
03-15-2011, 14:01
PSA...
It seems most phone carriers (AT&T and Verizon for sure) are offering free calls to Japan, with some restrictions, such as a 60 min limit. Check with your carrier for details. AT&T is backdating the offer to 11 Mar and crediting accounts for calls made.
I hope we are shutting down the Nuke Plants in CA. Not worth loosing our entire west coast. Nuke plant in Idaho cool. On a fault line next to the ocean, so not cool anymore.
There is so much they are not talking about. The water they are pumping in to the plants to try and cool them. Becomes extremely radiated. Then is being pumped right back into the Ocean.
The Reaper
03-15-2011, 16:37
I hope we are shutting down the Nuke Plants in CA. Not worth loosing our entire west coast. Nuke plant in Idaho cool. On a fault line next to the ocean, so not cool anymore.
There is so much they are not talking about. The water they are pumping in to the plants to try and cool them. Becomes extremely radiated. Then is being pumped right back into the Ocean.
And replace the nuke plants in Kali with what?
TR
Tree Potato
03-15-2011, 16:57
I hope we are shutting down the Nuke Plants in CA. Not worth loosing our entire west coast. Nuke plant in Idaho cool. On a fault line next to the ocean, so not cool anymore.
There is so much they are not talking about. The water they are pumping in to the plants to try and cool them. Becomes extremely radiated. Then is being pumped right back into the Ocean.
Can you define "extremely radiated"? The cooling water does increase its radiation level as contaminants in water tend to pick up the extra neutrons buzzing around, but to what degree we can't accurately state without ground truth readings. It would be interesting to see what the released cooling water radiation levels actually are. Also, at this point they may not be releasing any water; temperature levels may simply require presence of water for continued cooling, but not that it circulate.
Besides, greenies have complained for years about loss of species... now a few more get created. Good thing, right? :munchin
greenberetTFS
03-15-2011, 17:01
And replace the nuke plants in Kali with what?
TR
Excellent point TR,but what should we do NOW before it maybe to late?......:(
Big Teddy :munchin
Having worked on the security side of Nuke plants. We were very educated on the Workings of the Plants. Even in a fully functional Plant. The cooling water doesn't stand still. Being told that fuel rods have melted. Everything passing close to those Rods is Fuc#$ing Toxic. They been pumping water into them for days. Where do you think it go's.
On another note. Months from now there will be incredible accounts of Heroics I'm sure.
It is intersting the ballance of power generation the left does not want us to have.
Wind Power - Swinging blades kill birds.
Coal fired plant - Dirty dirty sulfur
Gas fired plant - No No you'll have to drill
Hydro electric - No No some little fish may die
Nuke Plants - Oh, my God you must be kidding.
Folks, while you sit there typing away remember that electic power came from somewhere. Funny how libs can use the internet to coordinate a protest, use cars to drive there and then protest energy use.
Since I don't know squat about nuke plants the one question I would have is why are they designed that you need to make them stop? Why are they not designed that you have to force them to go and if something goes wrong - they stop.
I hope we are shutting down the Nuke Plants in CA. Not worth loosing our entire west coast.
Japan's plants survived the quakes. It was the tsumami that took them out. We are not near a subduction zone here in SoCal. (Well, actually, I'm in Arizona at the moment. Nothing to do with Japan.)
Pat
It's an ongoing Nuclear Reaction. Or a very slow controlled Nuclear explosion. You cant turn it off instantly. They have to separate the rods to stop the nuclear reaction. Then cool them down. Need warning to do that. They had back up generators to do this. But they didn't plan for the whole place to be under water.
Japan's plants survived the quakes. It was the tsumami that took them out. We are not near a subduction zone here in SoCal. (Well, actually, I'm in Arizona at the moment. Nothing to do with Japan.)
Pat
So a Tsumami will never hit CA. Even thou one just hit a few day ago. Small, I know. Ill have to check. But I believe there is an underwater Fault line less then 3 miles from one of CA Nuke plants. This Fault line was only discovered a couple of years ago. What the Hell do's Subduction mean!:D
GratefulCitizen
03-15-2011, 17:41
It is intersting the ballance of power generation the left does not want us to have.
Wind Power - Swinging blades kill birds.
Coal fired plant - Dirty dirty sulfur
Gas fired plant - No No you'll have to drill
Hydro electric - No No some little fish may die
Nuke Plants - Oh, my God you must be kidding.
Folks, while you sit there typing away remember that electic power came from somewhere. Funny how libs can use the internet to coordinate a protest, use cars to drive there and then protest energy use.
Since I don't know squat about nuke plants the one question I would have is why are they designed that you need to make them stop? Why are they not designed that you have to force them to go and if something goes wrong - they stop.
Green energy doesn't address how we might get machines airborne (like the type necessary to rescue people whom were carelessly accosted by mother Gaia).
It takes an energy-dense source easily released by a lightweight conversion mechanism to get air moving over lift planes at sufficient velocity to create the necessary pressure difference to produce flight.
Maybe Gaia will reward her faithful followers with controllable, localized, anti-gravity storms.
A new field is born: Druid Flynamics.
It's an ongoing Nuclear Reaction. Or a very slow controlled Nuclear explosion. You cant turn it off instantly. They have to separate the rods to stop the nuclear reaction. Then cool them down. Need warning to do that. They had back up generators to do this. But they didn't plan for the whole place to be under water.
There is a lot of doing in your answer. My question - why is the doing not in making it go?
My very, very simple non-nuke engineer example would be like an electro magnet. It takes power to work. If the power is cut it stops working and drops what it's holding. It only works when you force it to.
So why are nuke plants not designed to have to be forced to work and if anything goes wrong they slide into a safe mode - slowly maybe - in case someone made a mistake somewhere - but still shuts down. Everything has to be forced to stay open otherwise shutdown.
As with your explanation - "They have to separate the rods to stop the nuclear reaction" - Mine would be "They have to hold the rods in place or the reation stops."
Just wondering.
The Reaper
03-15-2011, 18:12
It is intersting the ballance of power generation the left does not want us to have.
Wind Power - Swinging blades kill birds.
Coal fired plant - Dirty dirty sulfur
Gas fired plant - No No you'll have to drill
Hydro electric - No No some little fish may die
Nuke Plants - Oh, my God you must be kidding.
Folks, while you sit there typing away remember that electic power came from somewhere. Funny how libs can use the internet to coordinate a protest, use cars to drive there and then protest energy use.
Since I don't know squat about nuke plants the one question I would have is why are they designed that you need to make them stop? Why are they not designed that you have to force them to go and if something goes wrong - they stop.
Pete:
Agree 100% on the libs not wanting any power sources, at least not in their areas. Still the electric plug in car is not much good if you cannot generate the electricity to recharge it, and they like their electric gadgets just like everyone else. Therein is the hypocrisy of the environmentalist.
To answer your other questions, the nuclear reaction in a power plant cannot be turned off or on in a very short time. That would be like the heating element in your hot water heater going to full power with the water shut off and the pressure relief valve blocked, and you trying to cool off the water inside in a few seconds before it exploded. They do have rapid SCRAM systems to dampen the reaction as quickly as physically possible, and have since the first reactor was constructed. Appropriately long amateur explanation follows.
Not a physicist, but here goes. Most nuclear power plants use the fissionable material (usually uranium pellets in metal tubes) which produces heat (just like gas, oil, coal, etc.) to make steam which turns turbines which turn generators and produce electricity. The only unique part is the source of the heat. The systems I am familar with, except for marine applications, use a closed loop for the cooling (neutron moderating, and steaming) feedwater, which means that there is a fill of water which is pumped into the reactor, heated into steam in the reactor pressure vessel at 1100 psi, and sent to spin the turbines and from there to a condenser, where a separate set of pipes pushes non-irradiated water in to cool the steam. The water absorbs part of the heat from the steam, condensing it back into a liquid state where it returns to the reactor to restart the process. The cooling water is normally drawn from a surface water source. The only difference between that body of water and the surrounding ones is that the cooling lake would be slightly warmer. The closed circuit coolant, which contacts the core and is irradiated, is not normally released outside the system.
If the reactor core is fueled, the coolant has to be pumped 24/7 to keep it from melting down. A system which is mothballed or a cooling pool for used fuel rods still might require a small amount of circulating water to keep it adequately cooled. A system which is operating at capacity and making a lot of power (heat) requires more coolant to keep it from overheating. When it has been operating, the reactor core has significant residual heat. The pumps normally run on the grid, which the reactor provides power to. The back-up is on-site diesel generators, which in the event of a power outage, start up and shortly afterwards, produce sufficient power to keep the pumps running. If they start and run, they can do so as long as they have fuel to keep running. The Japanese plants in question also have a battery bank as back up. The bank can provide power until the batteries are discharged.
I do not know how the earthquake and tsunami affected things, but my supposition would be that the reactor controls (either automatically or by the operators) SCRAMed, or intitiated an immediate emergency shutdown of the reactor. Most of the boiling water reactors have failsafes to scram the control rods in less than four seconds and slow down the reaction. They also have chemical neutron dampers to dump into the feedwater if need be. In this case, the grid shut down as well, intitating backup generator power, and the earthquake or the tsunamis knocked the diesel generators off line, leaving just the batteries. Assuming that the pumps and piping were intact, they may have been unable to provide power for an extended period, or were also knocked out by the earthquake and tsunami, or ran down and out of power before they could be recharged or power restored.
The core, even when SCRAMed, still has a tremendous amount of residual heat, and the pumps failed to deliver a sufficient quantity of coolant to keep the water from flashing to steam. Initially, the reactor pressure vessel contained the steam, but eventually, the increasing steam pressure (slightly radioactive) overcomes the pressure limits of the reactor vessel and either pops off relief valves (taking more water out of the reactor vessel), or blows the container apart. A byproduct of the superheated steam and nuclear process is the creation of hydrogen gas, which is highly flammable and explosive (see the Hindenberg).
Given exposure of the reactor core control rods without coolant, they eventually reach a point where they melt. The molten rods fall to the bottom of the reactor pressure vessel, puddle, and if hot enough, begin to melt through the steel or concrete bottom of the vessel. The production of neutrons may stop, or the fuel may cool or be cooled suffciently prior to burning through the bottom of the reactor presure vessel and stop. Once the RPV is breached, the molten radioactive core will burn down into the earth, causing significant additional issues if it hits pockets of water or fossil fuels along the way. Those explosions can blow back up to the surface and eject additional quantities of radioactive material out of the hole. That is the China Syndrome.
I am surprised that the Japanese were unable to fly in emergency generators and get the pumps running before the systems overheated. Obviously, the E of their PACE plan was also flawed, most likely not anticipating a 9.0 earthquake followed by a large tsunami. I personally suspect that the earthquake may have exceeded the design parameters for the water pipes and pumps, and none of the power systems listed would have mattered as the cooling system was physically broken and unable to circulate water.
Once the failure goes beyond a certain point, the options to stop the chain reaction are very limited. With exposed and molten rods, you have to try and cool them off before they breach the reactor pressure vessel. That is where the seawater and boric acid come into play in cooling and moderating neutrons. The contaminated seawater is a small consequence compared to the meltdown issues.
The Russians were practicing a shutdown drill at Chernobyl when they created, through a series of missteps worthy of Moe, Larry, and Curly, their own catastrophe. The electric generators were known to take longer to come on line than the coolant takes to flash to steam and explode. They were trying to see if the spindown of the turbines could produce enough electricity to keep the pumps running for the 45 secoinds or so it took the diesel generators to start, reach operating status, and start delivering power to the pumps. Unfortunately, they had previously done things with the controls that made this virtually impossible to accomplish. If you want to see how complicated this can be, read the accounts of Chernobyl, which is pretty well investigated and explained. Also note that the Soviet reactor design and construction was marginal, and had a number of flaws that the Japanese boiling water reactors did not have.
Bottom line, after much typing, is that the fueled reactor needs circulating coolant at all times, even if SCRAMed. Something failed, either the power to the pumps, the pumps, the pipes the water supply, or whatever. You cannot safely shut down any reactor I am aware of instantly any more than you can safely stop an airplane instantly in flight. The heat load is too great, just like airspeed.
Hope that helps explain, as I understand it.
TR
So a Tsumami will never hit CA. Even thou one just hit a few day ago. Small, I know. Ill have to check.
That shows how little experience we have with tsunamis here. We had several hours warning, yet few boat owners bothered to leave port. (There’s a reason they are called “tsunamis” and not “bummers”. ;) )
But I believe there is an underwater Fault line less then 3 miles from one of CA Nuke plants.
There are several, probably, but they are not Plate Boundaries.
What the Hell do's Subduction mean!
It’s the fault line where one plate slides under another plate lifting it (and displacing water, if it's under water). Oddly, here in SoCal, we are on the Pacific Plate. Even more oddly, Japan is on the North American Plate! :D
Our subduction zone is along the San Andreas Fault, which is inland until it get to the San Francisco area.
Pat
Peregrino
03-15-2011, 20:01
There is a lot of doing in your answer. My question - why is the doing not in making it go?
My very, very simple non-nuke engineer example would be like an electro magnet. It takes power to work. If the power is cut it stops working and drops what it's holding. It only works when you force it to.
So why are nuke plants not designed to have to be forced to work and if anything goes wrong they slide into a safe mode - slowly maybe - in case someone made a mistake somewhere - but still shuts down. Everything has to be forced to stay open otherwise shutdown.
As with your explanation - "They have to separate the rods to stop the nuclear reaction" - Mine would be "They have to hold the rods in place or the reation stops."
Just wondering.
Pete - What you're describing is the ever ellusive fusion reactor. It's not operational for a number of reasons, mainly a lack of science/technology, money, and dedication; NTM the anti-nuke/ludite crowd that hates the very idea of nuclear energy.
News conference here now....
All personnel have abandoned the Daiichi Plant. Smoke is pouring out of the plants. Radiation levels are rising. They do not know the temps of the spent fuel pools nor the fuel rods because they cannot get close to the plant now. They do not know what the smoke is that is coming from the plant because they cannot get close to it. There was an option to use helicopter to continue spraying water onto the plant but that was scrapped due to the inability to ensure safety of the crews. Now they're looking at using fire trucks from the FD near the plant to spray water onto the fire. Readings at the main gate this morning were approx 1,000 MILLISIEVERT. The figures have dropped but are still hovering around 1-2 MILLISIEVERT/HOUR.
Ok, now for my take on all of this...
It's obvious up until now that they were merely trying to buy time. And it seems time has run out.
At least the Ukrainians had the guts to die trying.
Yukio Edano, the Prime Minister's #2 guy is the one who always gives these conferences. This time he actually took questions from reporters. The first reporter asked him,
"What is the level of criticality that we're talking about and what can the public expect from now regarding the plants and the radiation situations?"
Yukio Edano smirked and said,
"Of course anything critical can happen... that is reality... anything in life is possible... so we cannot rule out any outcome."
And then he walked away from the podium.
Wow....................
EX-Gold Falcon
03-15-2011, 22:07
At least the Ukrainians had the guts to die trying.
During the reign of the USSR? Wonder how many were given a choice or properly informed of the consequences...
T
At least the Ukrainians had the guts to die trying.
Was that necessary? What makes you believe the Japanese first responders aren’t trying?
100’s of thousands of people are suffering in Japan right now, so why don’t you keep your ignorant comments to yourself. :mad:
Another news conference....
Yukio Edano says that fires broke out in the Daiichi plant early this morning. They've confirmed that explosions occurred at the plant and the buildings housing the reactors have been destroyed. The fuel rods/cores are believed to be exposed. The last water temp measured at the spent fuel pools was 84 degrees at 5AM local time and they believe the temps have risen. This event prompted the govt to order the personnel at the plant to abandon operations there.
Was that "the big one" going off:confused:
Yet another news conference...
The Japanese govt has installed a revision to the law allowing personnel to work in contaminated areas. The old law allowed them to work in an area measuring 100 MILLISIEVERT after which they would be mandated to evac. Today's revision pushes the figure up to 250 MILLISIEVERT. Officials acknowledge that figure has acute effects on health...such as decreased white blood cells.
At least the Ukrainians had the guts to die trying.
Not the case. It seems they've a law here in the legislation that mandates anyone working in a nuclear contaminated area evacuate the area when the radiation levels in the work zone reach 100 MILLISIEVERT. The levels reached that amount and so the folks working there "abandoned" the plant on order by the govt.
As per my previous post, the govt made an emergency revision to that legislation today, increasing the responders ability to work in contaminated areas up to 250 MILLISIEVERT.
As far as guts go, Japan's track record historically speaks for itself... and has for THOUSANDS of years. It took 2 atomic bombs and the threat of using more to get them to surrender during WW2. I believe America didn't want to invade the mainland by force because fighting here would've been hell. They're a very proud people and have/will do ANYTHING to achieve what they believe is the desired outcome. i.e.; kamikaze pilots, charging battlefields in face of defeat, seppuku, giri, etc. Not unlike the level of pride/guts, or the steep traditions that Canucks have I'm sure.:rolleyes:
Japanese pride is sometimes so great that it limits them... in the current case as in past disasters, they try to bear the load themselves, because they feel this is THEIR country and they take care of their OWN. Does this have a negative effect... sure. Is it gutless... no.
Check your fire bro.
Tree Potato
03-16-2011, 03:24
One saving grace... at this point winds have turned and any release from a breached core (if that's indeed what happened) should be blown out to sea rather than back into the center of the island. That will give crews some time to get back in and get water back over the hot parts to limit further damage as the mess continues to cool.
That the reactors have fared as well as they have shows how much they were over-engineered when specs only called for making it through an 8.2 quake, not a 9.0 followed by a tsunami that swept away so much of the needed support capabilities.
One saving grace... at this point winds have turned and any release from a breached core (if that's indeed what happened) should be blown out to sea rather than back into the center of the island. That will give crews some time to get back in and get water back over the hot parts to limit further damage as the mess continues to cool.
That the reactors have fared as well as they have shows how much they were over-engineered when specs only called for making it through an 8.2 quake, not a 9.0 followed by a tsunami that swept away so much of the needed support capabilities.
Yes, the winds were blowing S from the AM up until this evening local time. It's been raining/snowing across Japan since this AM as well. Weather reports that the wind is shifting E and should blow most of the plume out over the ocean. Rain/snow are forecast to continue here through Friday the 18th.
They showed CH-47s picking up water in an area nearby the Daiichi plant, but there was no footage of them dropping it on the plant. Commentary in the footage said that the helos couldn't hover over the plant, but had to drop water while moving. Apparently they've got people working from fire trucks at the plant again, spraying water on the reactors, but those folks are only allowed to remain in/around the area for brief periods of time... at which time they're being rotated out/decon/measured/rotated in again.
2 of the reactors were built by General Electric. Govt reported that GE is sending 10 gas turbine generators to the plant to assist in operations, as well as providing info pertaining to a solution.
There is a lot of doing in your answer. My question - why is the doing not in making it go?
Sir, I just read this morning that there is another level of 'go-edness' involved, spent fuel rods. It seems once the 'fuel' has run out, that it is still dangerous for a period of time and requires continued maintenance and cooling.
Pardon the orientation of the source, but the story is direct http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2011/0315/Meltdown-101-What-are-spent-fuel-pools-and-why-are-they-a-threat.
Respectfully
Texas_Shooter
03-16-2011, 11:08
Here are your Japanese Ukrainians st1650.
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/03/16/japans-uncertain-following-radiation-level-panic/
GratefulCitizen
03-16-2011, 11:45
There is a lot of doing in your answer. My question - why is the doing not in making it go?
My very, very simple non-nuke engineer example would be like an electro magnet. It takes power to work. If the power is cut it stops working and drops what it's holding. It only works when you force it to.
So why are nuke plants not designed to have to be forced to work and if anything goes wrong they slide into a safe mode - slowly maybe - in case someone made a mistake somewhere - but still shuts down. Everything has to be forced to stay open otherwise shutdown.
As with your explanation - "They have to separate the rods to stop the nuclear reaction" - Mine would be "They have to hold the rods in place or the reation stops."
Just wondering.
Pebble bed reactors have passive safety, but there were concerns about the combustibility of the graphite.
China is supposed to have one coming online in 2013.
Nuclear plants have a very high capital cost and a low fuel cost (discounting the externalities of expended fuel disposal).
Coal and natural gas have lower capital costs and higher fuel costs (again -- discounting the externalities associated with emissions).
Nuclear plants, and most coal/ng plants, operate on some variation of the Rankine cycle.
Higher temperatures result in higher thermal efficiency.
The higher the thermal efficiency, the more power you will get out of a given size powerplant.
You will also get more power from less fuel.
For safety reasons, nuclear plants operate at lower temperatures than their conventional counterparts (whose temperatures are generally limited only by metallurgical constraints).
This results in lower thermal efficiency and effectively increases the capital costs of a given nuclear plant.
For a nuclear power plant to be economically feasible, it needs to operate at the highest achievable safe temperature.
Hence, the tremendous "residual heat" referenced by TR.
What constitutes "safe"?
Engineering concerns have to be balanced with economic realities.
Suppose the average nuclear plant on earth, in any given year, is 99.99% "safe"(arbritrary number for illustrative purposes).
This means that any given plant has only 1 in 10000 chance of having a serious accident any given year.
Suppose a typical operating life of 40 years for these plants.
There are ~442 nuclear power plants operating in the world.
The chance of zero serious accidents for a plant over its life would be .9999^40 = .99600779
The chance of zero serious accidents among all 442 plants would be .99600779^442 = .170658908
In other words, there would be about 83% chance of at least one serious accident over the course of 40 years.
If you build enough plants and use them long enough, accidents will happen.
This seems bad, but consider the alternatives.
How many deaths/injuries/illnesses occur over the course of 40 years from the production of coal/ng and from the emissions.
Nuclear just seems bad because damage/casualties are concentrated.
greenberetTFS
03-16-2011, 12:56
Just my $0.02.............;)
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_FzrCmNCKIdg/Rvj8oYB1ojI/AAAAAAAAASA/zawJ0i4_HbM/S404/solargascartoonsmall.
Big Teddy :munchin
At least the Ukrainians had the guts to die trying.
They were told everything was safe. Russia.....really, ya I'm sure the families of the dead and dying all got lawyers and sued. Then Michael Moore made a movie.
And replace the nuke plants in Kali with what?
TR
If we loose CA we loose Hollywood. What will we do without our one or two good Movies a year.
On a serious note. Doesn't matter what we have to do to put those places back on traditional power. The consequences of loosing the nuke plants in those Zones. Doesn't even compare to the consequence of loosing control of a Nuke Plant.
Doesn't even compare to the consequence of loosing control of a Nuke Plant.
Very well said, Sir! Good God, I hope the Japanese are able to contain their plants....:(
And post #126...AGREE 110%!!!
Holly
The Reaper
03-16-2011, 18:50
On a serious note. Doesn't matter what we have to do to put those places back on traditional power. The consequences of loosing the nuke plants in those Zones. Doesn't even compare to the consequence of loosing control of a Nuke Plant.
What sort of generating plants do you have in mind and where do you think you are going to build them? You will never get environmental permits to build them there. Kalifornia is now closed for business and development.
Frankly, if a 9.0 hits Kali, with a 10 meter tsunami following it, I do not think the nuclear plants are going to be your primary concern.
Personally, I think the media has terrified people of nukes and radiation.
TR
greenberetTFS
03-16-2011, 18:56
Was that necessary? What makes you believe the Japanese first responders aren’t trying?
100’s of thousands of people are suffering in Japan right now, so why don’t you keep your ignorant comments to yourself. :mad:
I'm in agreement with this young man,that post was way out of line.......:(
Big Teddy :munchin
What sort of generating plants do you have in mind and where do you think you are going to build them? You will never get environmental permits to build them there. Kalifornia is now closed for business and development.One could address the issue on the demand side by developing increasingly energy efficient technology and by taking a hard look at Californians' love for their cars.
Do cars really make a difference though, as those don't use electricity from the grid?The facilities where the cars are parked do.
I agree the libs don't want anything done
A good portion of the libs would like to see mankind back in the stone age, and some would not care if mankind was eradicated from the face of the earth.
Good times.
Do cars really make a difference though, as those don't use electricity from the grid?
All the infrastructure for them (lit parking lots and garages, traffic signals and information signs, street lights) certainly does.
Richard :munchin
Over at the PhysicsForums site, a guy who is a nuclear engineer there said that the plant would be operating normally right now, what happened was when the electrical grid shut down, the emergency diesel generators kicked on, but then the tsunami took out the fuel supply to the EDGs and some of the electrical work, so the cooling was stopped, and if the fuel supply had been located on the other side of the plant, away from the ocean, and the electrical system about 10m off the ground, all would be well.
Sirs,
So the plants survived a 9.0 earthquake. stop.
I would like to point out that this is an amazing testament to the engineering and forethought that went into these things when they were built 30+ years ago.
The plants even survived (structurally for the most part) a tsunami IMMEDIATELY FOLLOWING a 9.0 earthquake. I believe that this is another testament to the engineering and forethought etc etc...
My reading has confirmed Broadsword's comment that the current issues stem directly from auxiliary (sure you could argue primary) systems used to power the cooling system. One of the esteemed professionals here said on the disaster preparedness thread "one is none and two is one", my humble opinion is that the primary lesson to learn is that you need a backup for your backup for your backup when it comes to cooling systems and nuclear plants. IMHO these plants have stood up to amazing abuse.
This shit has hardly started SNAFU-ing.
Interesting read....
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/17/science/17plume.html?_r=1&smid=fb-nytimes&WT.mc_id=WO-SM-E-FB-SM-LIN-RPC-031711-NYT-NA&WT.mc_ev=click
Can you say abandon ship...
http://www.comcast.net/articles/news-general/20110314/US.US.Japan/
...I can.
Entire post.
Entire post.FWIW, those looking for an informed analysis of the various fields of engineering and the culture of engineering might be interested in the works of Henry Petroski, including To Engineer Is Human: The Role of Failure in Successful Design (1985).
From the on-line edition of the Los Angeles Times <<LINK (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-japan-quake-fukushima-20110317,0,2746821,print.story)>>Isolated and angry amid Fukushima nuclear crisis
An awful reality is setting in for those trapped near the stricken nuclear plant: People are afraid to help them.
By Barbara Demick, Los Angeles Times
March 17, 2011
Reporting from Yamagata, Japan
An awful realization is setting in for those trapped in the vicinity of the crippled Fukushima nuclear complex: People are afraid to help them.
Residents describe spooky scenes of municipal cars driving down near-empty streets telling people to stay indoors, but they've seen few other signs of outside help.
Aid agencies are reluctant to get too close to the plant. Shelters set up in the greater Fukushima area for "radiation refugees" have little food, in part because nobody wants to deliver to an area that might be contaminated. And with little or no gasoline available, not everyone who wants to leave can get out.
Radiation fears mingled with a sickening sense of abandonment Wednesday.
"People who don't have family nearby, who are old or sick in bed, or couldn't get gasoline, they haven't been able to get away from the radiation," said Emi Shinkawa, who feels doubly vulnerable. Her house was swept away by the tsunami.
Her daughter, Tomoko Monma, knows she's lucky: At 9 a.m. Wednesday, she piled her family into the car, thankful for her husband's foresight in setting aside enough gasoline for them to make their escape.
But she's angry that people living outside the 12-mile evacuation zone around the nuclear plant weren't given help finding public transportation or the gasoline to drive away in their own cars. Monma lives 21 miles from the plant.
"We've gotten no help. We've gotten no information," said Monma, 28, who sat cradling her thumb-sucking 2-year-old daughter on the tatami mats that had been laid out in a sports center in Yamagata, 100 miles inland, which now serves as a shelter for people fleeing Fukushima.
"The government is demanding that we don't go out, but it isn't bringing us anything," Katsunobu Sakurai, the mayor of a city close to the exclusion zone, complained in an interview with the national NHK television network. "Truck drivers don't want to enter the city. They're afraid of being exposed to radiation…. If the government says we're in a dangerous area, it should take more care of us!"
The U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission warned American citizens Wednesday that they should move at least 50 miles away from the Fukushima plant, which is leaking significant amounts of radioactivity. That warning is significantly stronger than the Japanese government's warning to keep 12 miles away.
Foreign aid workers in the area have been assessing the radiation risks, but many chose to remain just outside the 12-mile zone Thursday morning.
Casey Calamusa, a communications officer with Federal Way, Wash.-based World Vision who is coordinating the operation in Tokyo, said a three-member team went to Fukushima on Wednesday to distribute supplies such as water, blankets and diapers at an evacuation center. The team was equipped with protective masks and suits and stayed outside the exclusion zone, he said.
"They were playing it pretty safe. They were talking to local authorities and letting them know we wanted to help the evacuees," Calamusa said. "There is an imperative to help those people — they've had to leave their belongings behind and they're staying in shelters in near-freezing weather."
Officials at Westport, Conn.-based Save the Children were still trying to decide Wednesday whether to dispatch staff to Fukushima, weighing information from the Japanese government and their member group, Save the Children Japan, said spokesman Lane Hartill. The group already has staff responding in Tokyo and the northern city of Sendai.
"This is a first for us. We are a humanitarian organization — we don't know this. We're not nuclear physicists. We want to be able to protect our staff and to help people and their children," Hartill said.
The Fukushima No. 1 (Daiichi) plant, which opened in 1971, had been a good neighbor in many ways, providing jobs and subsidizing kindergartens, parks and community centers to gain residents' acceptance. Increasingly, those same neighbors are feeling betrayed.
Naoki Nanno, 30, who spent two years as a construction worker on the plant's reactors, complained that Tokyo Electric Power Co., the plant's operator, had been too slow in disclosing the problems that have mounted over the last few days. When one of the explosions occurred Monday, at the No. 3 reactor, Nanno was on the telephone with his brother.
"I heard a loud bang and I suspected it was an explosion at the nuclear plant, but they didn't announce it for another 20 minutes are so. There was radioactive material leaking after that explosion — we should have known about it right away," said Nanno, who lives 25 miles from the plant.
Takahiro Kori, 30, lost his house to the tsunami and barely escaped with his life: He could see the giant wave in his rear-view mirror as he sped away. After moving from shelter to shelter in Fukushima, each one with barely any food, he arrived Wednesday in Yamagata.
"I'm disgusted by the whole thing," Kori said.
"We were told our whole lives that the nuclear plant was safe," he said. "They told us even if there is a big earthquake or tsunami, it will never collapse. It all turned out to be lies."
For Japanese, the desperation has an added dimension: Already the name "Fukushima" is laden with something beyond the fear of damaged health.
The Japanese survivors of the 1945 atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki lived the rest of their lives with the stigma of having been exposed to radiation, a stain that years never erased. Known as Hibakushas, they are formally recognized by the government if they lived within proximity of the blasts, and receive a special medical allowance.
But the designation also led to them being ostracized by other Japanese, who feared wrongly that the contamination was contagious or could be hereditary. The result was that many survivors of the bombings, and even their children, lived ghettoized lives because of their exposure to radiation.
The prospect of a similar stigma now worries some of those in and around the Fukushima plant.
"I am worried about the future, " said a 65-year-old retired engineer from Sugagawa City, 30 miles from the plant, who was interviewed by phone and didn't want his name used.
"There could be some rumors that the people from this area are contaminated by radiation, and that people should not get close to us."
What sort of generating plants do you have in mind and where do you think you are going to build them? You will never get environmental permits to build them there. California is now closed for business and development.
Frankly, if a 9.0 hits Kali, with a 10 meter tsunami following it, I do not think the nuclear plants are going to be your primary concern.
Personally, I think the media has terrified people of nukes and radiation.
TR
Whats not to be terrified about Nukes and Radiation lol. I don't think the media had to work on that one long. Lets just keep those Nukes on a fault line next to the coast. It will never happen here. I think the U.S has been given a warning and should listen. Environmental hurdles aren't going to be high in this case.
The Reaper
03-17-2011, 15:04
Whats not to be terrified about Nukes and Radiation lol. I don't think the media had to work on that one long. Lets just keep those Nukes on a fault line next to the coast. It will never happen here. I think the U.S has been given a warning and should listen. Environmental hurdles aren't going to be high in this case.
KG:
I live less than 40 miles from Shearon Harris Nuclear Plant and am fine with it.
In the unlikely event something happens and the radiation blows my way, I will move out to a safe area till it is cleaned up.
At most, the coastal reactors in Kali going critical could kill a few thousand and make a few tens of thousands sick. IMHO, a 9.0 earthquake in Kali between San Francisco and San Diego would kill millions and the tsunami millions more.
If you think that the envirowhackos are going to let those plants be relocated to open somewhere else, I believe that you will be mistaken. They will not even clear wind and solar generation facilities there these days.
OTOH, if they want to close all of the power plants in Kali and pay ten or twenty times the national average to have their power generated out of state, that would be fine by me as well.
TR
This shit has hardly started SNAFU-ing.
Honestly,
When the radiation hits Our coast, I wonder if it is as safe as the media is reporting, or..............:rolleyes::munchin
Hmmmm...
Holly
Honestly,
When the radiation hits Our coast, I wonder if it is as safe as the media is reporting, or..............:rolleyes::munchin
Hmmmm...
Holly
No, it's the Medias job to sensationalize it for ratings. Our News today is like a Sitcom. The Journalist have been replaced with a cast. Hansom Dudes and big titted Chicks reading TelePrompTers. I used Dudes when describing the Men. So that makes it not Gay.
Scimitar
03-17-2011, 19:14
I agree. I was suprised when I first got to the US at how the news was so like a TV drama, where they would purposfully try and suck you into watching it for hours, but there was actually very little of what I'd consider news ever really reported.
I remember driving down the strip in Vegas one day and seeing "8.5 in Auckland" flashing across a casino advertising screen. I quickly texted my father worried as hell. Turns out it was a 4.3 a few hundred miles off the coast.
S
I heard scuttlebutt about DOS chartering planes to evac US citizens out of country. This AM I called US Embassy in Tokyo to get the word. Some Japanese lady, bless her soul, started giving me an e-mail addy to register myself/family. That dog don't hunt. So I told her I wanted to talk to an American please, and I didn't care the wait... 40 mins later I got an American guy on the phone. I ID'd myself, he took my mobile # and then called me back minutes later from his mobile. Very nice guy, no BS, straight shooter far as I can judge.
The word is: The DOS has chartered flights to evacuate any and all US personnel in Japan. The catch is... you gotta get yourself to Narita airport in Tokyo, the flight is low cost but not free, and you have your choice of Taiwan or Seoul for destinations. Once you arrive in either of those places, you're on your own for the most part. Before we got off the phone he said don't hold your breath on what the Japanese govt is saying/doing.
Good times.
Tree Potato
03-17-2011, 23:01
The word is: The DOS has chartered flights to evacuate any and all US personnel in Japan. The catch is... you gotta get yourself to Narita airport in Tokyo, the flight is low cost but not free, and you have your choice of Taiwan or Seoul for destinations. Once you arrive in either of those places, you're on your own for the most part. Before we got off the phone he said don't hold your breath on what the Japanese govt is saying/doing.
I'm surprised DoS didn't coord for additional "Freedom Birds", which the military uses to fly from the west coast to various Asian destinations in a continuous loop. At least Taiwan and Seoul are out of the disaster area and have many flight connection options. Just curious, is the reduced "flee fare" just for US gov't personnel or can any US citizen use it?
I'm surprised DoS didn't coord for additional "Freedom Birds", which the military uses to fly from the west coast to various Asian destinations in a continuous loop. At least Taiwan and Seoul are out of the disaster area and have many flight connection options. Just curious, is the reduced "flee fare" just for US gov't personnel or can any US citizen use it?
Spouse/family members (non-essential types who're here under SOFA) of some AD or otherwise DOD component can use the freedom birds out of a military installation over here.... Misawa, Yokosuka, Iwakuni, etc.
Any/all US civilians otherwise in country who request exfil can use the DOS charter as far as I understand.
According to NBC News last night, the DOE says there are 104 operating nuclear power plants in 31 states in the US and the most vulnerable plant is Indian Point, 26 miles north of NYC and located atop a previously unknown fault when it was licensed in 1976.
"A Crisis of Confidence"
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3032619/#42140012
Richard :munchin
GratefulCitizen
03-18-2011, 12:05
Some insight from MIT:
http://mitnse.com/2011/03/13/modified-version-of-original-post/
-and-
http://mitnse.com/
The IAEA's take:
http://www.iaea.org/newscenter/news/tsunamiupdate01.html
Tree Potato
03-18-2011, 15:19
Unpleasant info to share... a 12 hr period of onshore flow coming up for Honshu.
Next sig weather system will move in on 20 Mar. During approx 00-12GMT/20 Mar there will likely be low level onshore flow (sfc-5000 ft). When the winds initially shift to blowing inland we can expect weak westward flow, then the winds turn and blow toward the NW and NNW at 5-15 kts for the majority of the onshore flow period.
After 12GMT/20 Mar the winds should return to offshore flow. There may also be significant precipitation and low clouds hampering helo ops as this system moves in.