View Full Version : property book accountability
Well I know they have started to bring this back into the SFQC MOS for 18Cs. But I'm starting this becuse I'm hoping there are a few old 92Ys or even a 92As out here.
Looking to tell new and old 18Cs what is needed for a ODA property book and it's accountability.
I feel 18Cs are to use to the statement, "you'll learn about that when you get to your ODA". But when property book accountability and ODA supply is, lets go easy, 70% of your Job both CONUS and OCONUS. Go forbid if your going on a JCET to a "NEW" Country or a Deployment and have to stand up a PBO. Do you 18 Charlies know how to do this?? Can any of you Old 92Ys answer this? Any 18 Charlies want to part some pearls of wisdom.
What makes a Good ODA property book?
Maybe, how is it set up. Do you have one large 3 or 4 inch binder or a couple of 2 inchers? Do you use one 3 inch for everything, and then had 1 inchers for each ODA section and then one for ODA "Team" Equipment signed out to individuals? What makes your property book GOOD?
What does a DA 2062 cover? How do you use it? How long are they good for?
What is a DA 3161 used for? How long are they good for?
Will a piece of blank paper with someones signature and a piece of equipment and maybe a date stand up in a 15-6 investigation?
Lets do these above for starters.......
I would like to get it from a 92Y first off on the DA forms... but do chine in please on your ODA PBO books.
I feel 18Cs are to use to the statement, "you'll learn about that when you get to your ODA". But when property book accountability and ODA supply is, lets go easy, 70% of your Job both CONUS and OCONUS. Go forbid if your going on a JCET to a "NEW" Country or a Deployment and have to stand up a PBO. Do you 18 Charlies know how to do this?? Can any of you Old 92Ys answer this? Any 18 Charlies want to part some pearls of wisdom.
I'll admit, when I filled out my volunteer statement with 18C in the top slot I thought I was going to be spending most of my time (in the off chance I am selected and earn a long tab) building things and then blowing them up.
This may not be the place to ask, but your post inspired a question, is there a standard breakdown as to which MOS's hold which additional duties?
"Hey, I'm a demo guy. Support guys build shit & do paper work."
Seriously, even though it is the CPT's name on the dotted line, I am the one w/ egg on my face if the PB is messed up. My PB is in Excel w/ tabs for each MOS. Stay/Go list is also in Excel. When I travel, I hand carry a binder w/ a hard copy of the PB and all 1750s plus a thumb drive w/ them on digits. Additionally I keep a few blank 2062s and 1750 on hand for contingencies.
As for answers to your questions, I do not know but suppose I need to go find out.
x/S
On my last team, we had an access database with every piece of equipment on the team listed, even the stuff not on the property book, along with columns for who is signed it, where it was located, "Stay/Go" checkbox. It would generate stay/go and packing lists from that. Made it very easy as long as guys updated the database.
Of course that was in addition to the hardcopy Property Book, and subhandreceipts.
One thing that I'd recommend is taking photos of every item and adding that to the database or spreadsheet by line item/ NSN / serial number.
Also, the 18C has the master property book, but each section should also maintain copies of their paperwork/2062s/turn-in docs.
This is a great thread for up and coming 18C. A few good TTPs have already been put out, I'll add how I did it.
ODA Property Book (3in Binder)
-Copy of CPT's signed hand receipt
-Copy of MOS Break-down (Excel)
-Sub-Hand Receipts delegating equipment from the CPT to respective individual in that MOS (DA 2062)
-Then Density List of Team Equipment not on Property Book ie.(Craftsman tool kits, Cat 5 cable splicing kit, Concealed carry holsters) (Excel)
-Sub-Hand Receipts delegating team equipment to Individual (2062)
-Copies of all Turn-in Docs / Maintenance Docs
-Copies of shortage annexes (2062)
-2062s of Equipment signed out
Sub Component Book (1in Binder)
-A copy of all sub component hand receipts kept in the order that they appear on the HR
-Copy of Team HR
Load out Binder (1in Binder)
-I had each MOS make a word doc, basically using the 1750 format and write what had in each Contico Box.
-We used various ISU 90's along with the Teamroom to store equipment
this binder had where the equipment was located. ie (SKEDCO, Box D1, ISU 2-SN XXXX)
I also used a numbering system for the contico boxes, Personal and Professional. My guys were pissed when I showed up with black spray paint and paint markers and made them re-do their boxes with their names and graffiti all over them, but it paid off later on. Doing this allowed me to account for each box that was being palletized, that way I could give my TMSGT an UP without having to do another layout because each box was sealed after the final layout.
Before a deployment.
I would hand each MOS a copy of the Team HR. They would highlight anything that was a (STAY). I would take that info, review it, have the TMSGT review it. (Guys will try to leave shit behind that they need) Once he blessed off on it, I would put it on excel as the team density list. Using this info I would make the stay behind HR. Meanwhile, The MOS's would be making their 1750s.
I made a deployable version of the Team Property book with a tri-fold folder.
-Copy of CPT's hand receipt
-Copy of Stay behind hand receipt
-Copy of Density List
-Copies of all 1750s
-All Hazmat Documentation
-All Shipping Documentation
-Ammo Break down
-Blank 1750s/2062s
This version i would carry in my "C" Back pack, along with extra locks, a small set of lock cutters, paint markers, with a few other random things I thought that I would need.
This is all I can think of right now. I know it seems like a lot. However, after all the leg work is done, this system runs smoothly and requires minimal upkeep. I kept everything I could on digits, I hate re-creating the wheel. Keeping good books makes you look like a superstar, when your CPT calls you and you are OCONUS in a school, asking about a piece of equipment. I just told him to look in my Engineer/PBO Book and flip to the "Equipment signed out" Tab, and WALA.
This is all for now.
CH
I always had the Medics share that responsibility with the Engineers - more eyes reviewing the PB and supply requests led to fewer errors and, because the Medics used the supply system on a nearly continuous basis, they were equally adept at understanding it. It also gave me 2 capable people for managing our equipment and supplies when operating in a split-team mode vs relying solely upon 1 man.
Richard :munchin
HEAD - I used a similar program, well same program ACCESS. Worked great for me. I had my 18E, Computer geek build it for me. But once I left 10th and ended up in 3rd I could remember after my SWC time on how to change the Headers for the word documents and excell sheet that you could print out. It worked alot like your, you clicked on a box for each item on a master "sheet" and told it what box to go into and them you could print out a Box sheet for each box and a "stay-Go" word document with ODA header and CPTs signature Block to sign it. We were not a well liked ODA for one deployment. :D
HOTSHOT - Great POST!!! Totally forgot the 1750s, nice add on!!
18C - if your new to an ODA or just never had that "real" senior. HOTSHOTs is a great "standard". But every Group and Company, let alone ODA will have what they want. If your TS is a former 18C, you may have to do it his "way". Learn to deal with changes. Most ODA leadership care that you account for the ODAs equipment and know what is coming and going out of the Team Room.
Everything is electronic now - so keep that hardcopy Property Book, and sub-handreceipts in a deployment binder with one left behind in the locker in your Team Room.
CloseDanger
02-27-2011, 12:40
Will a piece of blank paper with someones signature and a piece of equipment and maybe a date stand up in a 15-6 investigation?
I could preach for days about this stuff. A hand receipt (2062) does nicely, but getting the commanders permission to shake down the company, platoon, squad, or team that had lost a sensitive item saves a lot of pain on an OER. Ensure proper storage space and means. Grab a copy of the MTOE and the property book so you can track fielding (3161) of equipment and what may need to be turned in (1348-1) - it really helps with planning and ordering expendables to run them. Find the tactical items you will need on a deployment by tracking past requisitions and your new incoming equipment and make sure the orders (2062) are prepared before the ball drops.
Watch the operations cell like a Hawk - no planning without that. You rarely have to "stand up" to a PBO - thats what signature cards are for.
Must read - DA PAM 710-2-1,2 and AR 735-5. Helps to read 15-6 too because most officers become investigating officers in their term.
It costs alot of money and time to charge for equipment, it is just not efficient to do 362's, and you know an Officer will get hit with an investigation if you do a report of survey - they have a time hack. Its easier just to look for the item or make friends with a contractor ;)
Richard, I like the Medic idea. Just question weather or not its possible to get one to work that hard ;)
One more thing to add is that, for the MOS's of B and E. These 2 would maintain a binder as well with their MOS Items. To make things more streamlined, I came up with an individual HR with all items assigned to the individual, Guns, Kit, Commo, etc.... This made it easier to control. The B's and E's would keep copies of MOS related documentation, due to over half of the Teams Equipment was Guns and Commo. However, it was understood that a copy MUST be put into MY Engineer Book or into my INBOX. As the Engineer you must know the state of all equipment at all times.
Despite the workload, I truly enjoyed being an 18C. So for all of you up and coming guys, don't let being the "supply" guy discourage you. It will pay dividends being the "go to" guy. IF you're good at it:lifter
CH
...don't let being the "supply" guy discourage you. It will pay dividends being the "go to" guy. IF you're good at it.
Don't forget - Bob Howard ran the supply room for CCC for awhile - you guys are following in some BIG shoes. ;)
Richard :munchin
I just love this time of year. New Company Commanders and COR going on. I really love when a New MAJ takes over and during inventories think that Shortage annex are the fix all. How ODAs have had to burn the midnight oils for your ODAs Shortage 2062's? But has anyone really had their Supply SGT finial update the COmpany PBUS-E (Property Book Unit Supply - Enhanced) let anlone the Shortage items for every Company.
I will even go out and say even for any Military Unit using PBUS-E (Property Book Unit Supply - Enhanced).
This is even a better idea for the units getting ready to deploy down range. DO you update your 2062's that will never get updated within PBUS-E or do that DSOR that will never get filled?
Shadow1911
05-13-2011, 15:01
Richard, I like the Medic idea. Just question weather or not its possible to get one to work that hard
Ouch... I resemble that remark.:D
I just love this time of year. New Company Commanders and COR going on. I really love when a New MAJ takes over and during inventories think that Shortage annex are the fix all. How ODAs have had to burn the midnight oils for your ODAs Shortage 2062's? But has anyone really had their Supply SGT finial update the COmpany PBUS-E (Property Book Unit Supply - Enhanced) let anlone the Shortage items for every Company.
I will even go out and say even for any Military Unit using PBUS-E (Property Book Unit Supply - Enhanced).
This is even a better idea for the units getting ready to deploy down range. DO you update your 2062's that will never get updated within PBUS-E or do that DSOR that will never get filled?
Generally speaking, we kept Shortage Annexes on hand at all times. This made inventories run easier. I have not seen any shortages filled though the Suppy system, however.
One time, we were deploying and could not get replacement dewalt batteries for our dewalt kit. They were listed on the BN "Do NOT buy list". I bought 4 from homedepot, and was reembursed through Team Fund. I never understood how we could buy 5000 dollars in SSSC that we didn't need, but could not spend 200 dollars on batteries that we NEEDED.
Back to the Last question. When I was the SR ENG,I always maintained updated Shortage annexes despite the issues we had with getting them filled. I made sure the team had what it needed, and that's what mattered to me. We didn't always have time to wait on the army.
CH
Richard, I like the Medic idea. Just question weather or not its possible to get one to work that hard ;)
[Ouch... I resemble that remark.:D
There is no doubt in my mind ;)
Generally speaking, we kept Shortage Annexes on hand at all times. This made inventories run easier. I have not seen any shortages filled though the Suppy system, however.
One time, we were deploying and could not get replacement dewalt batteries for our dewalt kit. They were listed on the BN "Do NOT buy list". I bought 4 from homedepot, and was reembursed through Team Fund. I never understood how we could buy 5000 dollars in SSSC that we didn't need, but could not spend 200 dollars on batteries that we NEEDED.
Back to the Last question. When I was the SR ENG,I always maintained updated Shortage annexes despite the issues we had with getting them filled. I made sure the team had what it needed, and that's what mattered to me. We didn't always have time to wait on the army.
CH
Far as I know, maybe a 92 MOS can fill us in, those Short annexes should be updated within PBUS-E so your shortages can be ordered though the military supply system.
Yeah I really hate the USASOC "Do NOT buy list" for things you have that are COTS and you can't get replacement parts. COTS replacement batteries is a GREAT Exampe of the broken system. Most "Do NOT buy list" items are because military people have abused the system. USASOC list is made up from these problems.
I made sure the team had what it needed, and that's what mattered to me.
Yeap got to take care of business!! :lifter
One thing I hate about USASFC and USASOC DSOR process is one Group can get something approved off their DSOR while another can't get the same approved list. We test these water by taking another Groups approved DSOR for their OEF trip and submitted it as our ODA with all their CTA remarks and approvals and added about 50 new items across the broad. More that half was not approve within our Group to USASFC.
I really hate the way CA and MISO teams will have stuff down range on a OEF/OIF trip that both units DSOR went up at the same time but their went to USACAPOC. SFODAs do get items that CAT and MIST have.
cowboykpy
05-14-2011, 15:38
If I recall correctly 2062's are only good for thirty days or so, longer than that and the equipment needs to get lateral transferred. Looks like I need to go look that one up again.
For my team, I made a list of individual equipment that each team member would be receiving to include things not on the PB, but are team issued. Then I customized that on the 2062 with serial #'s. Things like :
M4 w/ optics/lasers/lights
M9
MBITR
NVGs
Then I made Section 2062's and put them in separate binders, and a Maintenance binder. The good CPT didn't like having so many binders, so now I have one binder that is the team PB, one binder that is the Section's 2062s, and a third binder that is Shortage annexes grouped by section, it is by far the most painful binder, but the most important one in my opinion. It doesn't matter how much cool sh^t you have in your team room, if it's broken it doesn't do you any good :D
I think the key is getting the section guys to sign for their stuff and get involved in the upkeep of their assigned equipment. The next biggest thing for a new 18C would be to know what each piece of equipment is in your team room and keep that maintenance/shortage annex up to date with 2404's. And don't get forced into doing it all yourself, have each section do their 2404s.
I know that my company has done our shortage annexes correctly for the last 3.5 years and have ordered what we are short 3 times and still haven't received any of it, then again we're NG and our priority isn't very high according to mother Army. :mad:
My $.02 :munchin
If I recall correctly 2062's are only good for thirty days or so, longer than that and the equipment needs to get lateral transferred. Looks like I need to go look that one up again.
Good for 90 days by DA PAM and REGs.
I think the key is getting the section guys to sign for their stuff and get involved in the upkeep of their assigned equipment. The next biggest thing for a new 18C would be to know what each piece of equipment is in your team room and keep that maintenance/shortage annex up to date with 2404's. And don't get forced into doing it all yourself, have each section do their 2404s.
IMHO it is an 18C job to make sure all the other MOS sign for their Stuff. They have their section and they have their part of the TM room, Butler Bld or Deployment Shed to keep clean and account for. If you think as a Charlie that some other MOS can't handle their stuff, you talk to your Tm SGT. I never thought it was my job to make sure I handled other MOS stuff. We all have a Metic Ton on our plates now a days!! I did need to know where their section stuff was. But I never put it in a tuff box or moved here or there. I did make sure that all section BOX were numbered for deployments and D-list and numbered for AMO paperwork - As per TM SOP. I felt that as a 18C what made you better was working with guys on your ODA not fighting with them over the way they did their section. It may be mess up for your system, but in their minds it's the heat!!
This is what I kept in ODA Property (3" Binder) PBO Book: (All broken down by divider tabs)
1. Copy of CPT's signed hand receipt from Company Supply SGT
2. Sub-Hand Receipts delegating equipment from the CPT to respective individual in that MOS on DA 2062's
3. Copies of all Turn-in Docs / Maintenance Docs for the Commo Section ((NEVER THROW any of these AWAY!! Put them into your OLD PBO Reciept Binder!!!)))
4. Copies of all Turn-in Docs / Maintenance Docs for the Weapon Section ((NEVER THROW any of these AWAY!! Put them into your OLD PBO Reciept Binder!!!)))NVGs always come up missing
5. Copies of all Turn-in Docs / Maintenance Docs for the Medical Section
6. Copies of shortage annexes DA 2062 for the whole ODA. Each Section would do their own up on their own DA 2062
7. 2062s of Equipment signed out not for repairs or maintance
8. Stay Behind and Deployment PBO Reciept
9. All the paperwork you have to purduce while deployed for inventories... Love them!!!
10. DA 2062 or EXCELL List of Team Equipment not on Property Book ie. I have each section do up their own. I tried to do these while we were on a mission or JCET. A MUST right after you get back.
11. Nice to to have a tab for all those reciept you have from buying stuff for that OEF trip. This way you will know what guy have and got.
**** Team Issue Equipment in a 1 1/2" Binder with Sub-Hand Receipts delegating team equipment to Individual on DA2062. Most MOS kepted their own books too. Bravos are best for these!! :D
All Hand Reciepts and 2062. I never throw away. Just put them in another binder marked OLD PBO Reciepts. I kept only the current CPTs PBO Reciepts, none the old copies were in the 3" Binder.
I will add this, you will always have guys gone during the Company COR inventories. At the worst of time for you as a 18C, it best to have your MOS to make a Picture book, if they didn't have a Section Book. LIke the MED TACT SET or the 18F camera set of what everything is for that SKU worked best for me. ANCOC, SOCM-P, SFSC, Grp language school, ETC you will have guy's gone. The ODA need to help out, not just the 18C. The PBO is signed for by the DET CMDR and he is the ODA CDR. It's not just the 18C that needs to stay long hours laying other sections out becuase that one guy of the MOS is at School and the other MOS is on Leave. I say look it this way - CROSS TRAINING BROTHERS........... Your Cross training while your laying out the SF Tactical Medical Set or Camera Set!!!!!!
Guess what Cowboy, I guess you will be that adhoc 18C after the 18F Course!! :D :lifter
cowboykpy
05-14-2011, 19:28
my TS already told me I'm still the senior Chuck until we 1) get a new one from the Q and I train him to the TS's standard, or 2) we get one from another team who's not a new guy and even if either of those things happen I'll still be the "Senior" after I get promoted and become the Fox. It sounds like I have job security until I screw up. :D
5thgrp"C"
05-24-2011, 10:03
Thanks Hotshot, the format really helped me get the mess I inherited turned around and not a moment too soon. Definitely helped to have everything on digits when we had to do a quick stay go list and every piece of equipment was on excel in columns by LIN, SUBLIN, NSN, SN, Nomenclature, QTY, Item Note, Location, Section, and STAY/GO. Made it really easy for me to email the sections their copy and all they had to do was change the last column to S or G. Then it's easy to just organize by the last column to generate the stay go list. Made me look like I know what's going on Charlie wise. Thanks for squaring me away before I really looked like the new guy without a clue. And the saying "you will learn it when you get there" is definitely the truth.
I have been Retired, 92Y, since 2007 , but a DA 2062 is good until Change of Command has taken place, but should be updated every 6 months. The DA 3161 can be used for a 30 day loan or when it has a Document Number from PBO it is a lateral transfer for Property Book Items with the CO signature. When all else fails use AR 735-5. I hope this helps. ;)
I have been Retired, 92Y, since 2007 , but a DA 2062 is good until Change of Command has taken place, but should be updated every 6 months. The DA 3161 can be used for a 30 day loan or when it has a Document Number from PBO it is a lateral transfer for Property Book Items with the CO signature. When all else fails use AR 735-5. I hope this helps. ;)
MAC - Thanks you for the help!!
Thanks Hotshot, the format really helped me get the mess I inherited turned around and not a moment too soon. Definitely helped to have everything on digits when we had to do a quick stay go list and every piece of equipment was on excel in columns by LIN, SUBLIN, NSN, SN, Nomenclature, QTY, Item Note, Location, Section, and STAY/GO. Made it really easy for me to email the sections their copy and all they had to do was change the last column to S or G. Then it's easy to just organize by the last column to generate the stay go list. Made me look like I know what's going on Charlie wise. Thanks for squaring me away before I really looked like the new guy without a clue. And the saying "you will learn it when you get there" is definitely the truth.
No problem bro, glad it worked out for you. I only charge a couple Pints of Guinness :D
CH
One of the things I did on my team that helped a lot on inventories, stay/go list and property book in general. Was to get all the things that we no longer used turned in and taken off my property book.
One of the things I did on my team that helped a lot on inventories, stay/go list and property book in general. Was to get all the things that we no longer used turned in and taken off my property book.
When I was in 10th Main we had guys that did this too. One thing to keep in mind is just because you don’t use those solar panels or that TK 101 tool box (Which were the SHIZNIT) or those electrical Demo reels, ETC. You have to think UW or other military operations. When I got to 3rd Group they turned all of the Solar panels because no one used (Still don't) rechargeable batteries, well here we are during combat operations having to get resupplied with food, water or beans or bullets. But for batteries!!! Into all locations a SR mountain Top SO positions. So just keep this in mind when you turn stuff in, how was this to be used in UW? Do I need it or whatever?
Those type writers or broken yes. Compasses, Head sets, SF MED Tact SET sterilizer or hand cracked power source? Should you? SF has a ton of stuff that regular Army have based off our MTOE. We must get them. Keep in mind that some of those MTOE items are use us and Guerillas. Why in the hell does an ODA need so many NVGs??
Just my .02
When I was in 10th Main we had guys that did this too. One thing to keep in mind is just because you don’t use those solar panels or that TK 101 tool box (Which were the SHIZNIT) or those electrical Demo reels, ETC. You have to think UW or other military operations. When I got to 3rd Group they turned all of the Solar panels because no one used (Still don't) rechargeable batteries, well here we are during combat operations having to get resupplied with food, water or beans or bullets. But for batteries!!! Into all locations a SR mountain Top SO positions. So just keep this in mind when you turn stuff in, how was this to be used in UW? Do I need it or whatever?
Those type writers or broken yes. Compasses, Head sets, SF MED Tact SET sterilizer or hand cracked power source? Should you? SF has a ton of stuff that regular Army have based off our MTOE. We must get them. Keep in mind that some of those MTOE items are use us and Guerillas. Why in the hell does an ODA need so many NVGs??
Just my .02
Very good advice, thank you. Most of the stuff I turned in was broken, it just didn't make any sense to me to be laying out broken shit for inventories.
Very good advice, thank you. Most of the stuff I turned in was broken, it just didn't make any sense to me to be laying out broken shit for inventories.
RGR that .. If it is broken get rid of it. Let it sit in that Small Supply SGTs room. Let him deal with it. :D
This war has just really set into every MOS that... I don't need this or these anymore. As the term goes.. Watch out for mission Creep!!
RGR that .. If it is broken get rid of it. Let it sit in that Small Supply SGTs room. Let him deal with it. :D
This war has just really set into every MOS that... I don't need this or these anymore. As the term goes.. Watch out for mission Creep!!
Flipside too. Don't get rid of stuff you might need later... same goes for packing out to go downrange... I've had the thought "Hmm, I really don't want to bring this, but I should just in case" prove me right later on. But don't bring broken stuff - cause no matter how much you might need it later - it's still going to be broken! :D
Flipside too. Don't get rid of stuff you might need later... same goes for packing out to go downrange... I've had the thought "Hmm, I really don't want to bring this, but I should just in case" prove me right later on. But don't bring broken stuff - cause no matter how much you might need it later - it's still going to be broken! :D
True Head.. But I will add this...
I have brought Broken items downrange before.. yes crazy.. but this is why...
5KWa Generator that my motor pool could not fix and other stuff. Well third world people are the best recycling and rebuilding broken this. I got the generators fix. L3 guys are great too. Most better than Motor pool guys, they get to go to real school and get better at their jobs.
My ,02
On my last team, we had an access database with every piece of equipment on the team listed, even the stuff not on the property book, along with columns for who is signed it, where it was located, "Stay/Go" checkbox. It would generate stay/go and packing lists from that. Made it very easy as long as guys updated the database.
Of course that was in addition to the hardcopy Property Book, and subhandreceipts.
One thing that I'd recommend is taking photos of every item and adding that to the database or spreadsheet by line item/ NSN / serial number.
Also, the 18C has the master property book, but each section should also maintain copies of their paperwork/2062s/turn-in docs.
Spot on. Thats what I have been doing for the last few weeks trying to update things, since im taking the senior slot, and my current senior is moving to another team, we are knocking this out so that he can take it with him and use it on his new team. The database is a good idea too, along with 2062's containing all of the component lists for each item, and a digital shortage annex for each item as well. I am almost done with them in xfdl format if anyone wants copies, I might be willing to trade for other useful documents.......