View Full Version : Shooting with IBA
Hope this is the right forum. Im trying to get some tips on shooting while wearing an IBA. I can consistently put nickel size groups @ 300m in the prone, but once I go kneeling my form is shot to hell :mad: (no pun intended). I just cant seem to get the weapon in the pocket; it ends up either on my bicep or sliding around on the IBA. Any tips?
NoRoadtrippin
02-07-2011, 19:44
Nickel size groups with an M4/AR style weapon at 300m? That's way under MOA. Some pretty impressive shooting for a rifle designed to be a 3-5 MOA weapon. :eek:
Peregrino
02-07-2011, 20:00
I'm very impressed. I've got a couple of reasonably accurate rifles and I can't seem to get them to group smaller than about 2.5" at 300M. And that's on a no-wind day without IBA on. (My eyes must be getting old!)
If you're engaging targets at 300M stick with prone or some varient of supported. Otherwise move the buttstock closer to centerline of your IBA. Putting a friction enhancing buttpad on will also help - if you're willing to accept tradeoffs in handling. That or modify your IBA by adding a high friction surface or putting a pouch outboard of where your buttstock rests. Lots of potential solutions, you just have to experiment until you find one that works without too much PITA (everything involves compromise - what are you willing to put up with?).
Roger. Granted this was on a VERY good day with no wind and prone supported... The weather being overcast also helps because I can crank the CCO down to get lower MOA dot. Obviously ideal conditions :D. The buttstock is probably a no-go due to SOP (line infantry company), but I will definitely try the other tips. Thanks for the heads up!
Peregrino
02-07-2011, 21:38
Hmmm. That's even more interesting. I can't get a 4" group at 100 yds with an M-68. Even dialed down, the dot is too big for old eyes. The Gods have smiled on you young Jedi. Join the AMU before they change their mind. (There's a reason the Greeks personified the Fates as women!)
Friction enhancing buttpad can be as simple as quality (3M) skateboard tape. Virtually invisible (until it gets dirty then almost impossible to get clean), relatively cheap, and removeable for in-ranks inspections. It will however accelerate wear of anything it comes in contact with.
Thats .27 MOA out of a 4 MOA gun, with a 4 MOA red-dot. That's literally unbelievably good.
Surgicalcric
02-07-2011, 23:16
I can consistently put nickel size groups @ 300m
Roger. Granted this was on a VERY good day with no wind and prone supported... The weather being overcast also helps because I can crank the CCO down to get lower MOA dot. Obviously ideal conditions....!
So you shoot 1/4 MOA groups at 300m utilizing a 4 MOA optic from a weapon which on its best day is more than a 2 MOA gun. And this is done consistently on "VERY good days with overcast skies" which are apparently ideal conditions. :rolleyes:
BULLSHIT!!
I have several sub MOA weapons designed for long distance engagements with 20x optics sitting in my arms room that wont shoot that well with match ammo.
If you need advice just ask for it. But dont make shit up becuase you thin it looks good, it doesnt.
Crip
Are you shooting at the simulated 300m paper target that's 25m away? Then I can see you getting a nickel size grouping on a "300m" target. That's not the same....
And this is done consistently on "VERY good days with overcast skies" which are apparently ideal conditions.
As I said before, this allows me to get a fine dot on the CCO allowing greater accuracy.
But dont make shit up becuase you thin it looks good, it doesnt.
I came here for advice about shooting with the IBA. Maybe I should have left out all the "fluff" and been more direct with the question, however I felt it necessary to give some background. This was one day at the range where, obviously, I got pretty lucky. The first group was fist size, the second about the size of a quarter, and the third, about nickel size. I've been shooting all my life and would consider this about 90% luck, 10% Redbull ;)
"I can consistently put nickel size groups @ 300m in the prone,.."
I see you are in MD. Ft Meade happens to be my home station. Close to you at all? I will be returning there in around 8 months. When I do, you are coming with me to an NRA High power match. 200m, 300m and 600m iron sights. I will personally pay your registration to see that "nickel size" group...Hell, if you do that, I will drive you to Camp Perry. Start fine tuning those skills, because I do not "fluff" about my future competition.
I sincerely doubt a rack grade weapon shot .27....Do you have a video of this? Do you have a range card with the weather conditions? What was your dope that day?:confused:
Don’t BS something like that ever again. Either you did it or you did not. There is a difference between a big fish story and a total lie. I happen to not be a fan of either. Integrity is still an Army value!
If you shoot that well, you don't need IBA. Just get a little white cuckoo feather and stick it in the brim of your boonie cap.
Comm'on guys, give him a break. This group was obviously shot many years ago and we all know "grouping" stories are like fish stories but they work backwards. Fish getter bigger over time while groups get smaller....
MVP;)
Comm'on guys, give him a break.
Certainly....
:D
greenberetTFS
02-08-2011, 11:00
Comm'on guys, give him a break. This group was obviously shot many years ago and we all know "grouping" stories are like fish stories but they work backwards. Fish getter bigger over time while groups get smaller....
MVP;)
Amen to that!.............;)
Big Teddy :munchin
Boomer-61
02-08-2011, 12:41
"I've been shooting all my life and would consider this about 90% luck, 10% Redbull."
Redbull? Caffeine gives me the jitters.
Nickel size groups with an M4/AR style weapon at 300m? That's way under MOA. Some pretty impressive shooting for a rifle designed to be a 3-5 MOA weapon. :eek:
3-5 MOA? Most I've seen were 1-2MOA.
And yeah nickel groups at 300yards seems like some sharp shooting.
Peregrino
02-08-2011, 18:36
3-5 MOA? Most I've seen were 1-2MOA.
Concur. That is unless the particular weapon was severely abused.
The Reaper
02-08-2011, 19:03
M855 ammo is not able to reliably produce less than 3 MOA groups. In fact, the AMU has to test a variety of lots to select the most accurate possible for their use. A rack issued service rifle is probably a 2 MOA weapon at best. We won't even get into the error of the optic or fact that the reticle subtends roughly 12" at 300 meters.
The odds of you "consistently" producing five shot groups under 1/3 MOA at 300 yards from the supported prone with an issue rifle and ammunition and a CCO are roughly the same as me consistently winning the next several consecutive Powerball drawings.
I agree, you should quit your day job and start preparing for Camp Perry.
This is not a good place to try and BS people.
TR
M855 ammo is not reliably able to produce less than 3 MOA groups. In fact, the AMU has to test a variety of lots to select the most accurate possible for their use. A rack issued service rifle is probably a 2 MOA weapon at best. We won't even get into the error of the optic or fact that the reticle subtends roughly 12" at 300 meters.
The odds of you "consistently" producing five shot groups under 1/3 MOA at 300 yards from the supported prone with an issue rifle and ammunition and a CCO are roughly the same as me consistently winning the next several consecutive Powerball drawings.
I agree, you should quit your day job and start preparing for Camp Perry.
This is not a good place to try and BS people.
TR
I just ordered 1000 rounds of M855. It's from American Tactical. It should be in this week, I'll chrono it and see how it fairs in groups w/ my 16" DDM4. I'm zeroed at 50 with my eotech, but I've shot it out to 500 yards w/ a 3x magnifier using 75g TAP.
Buffalobob
02-09-2011, 06:32
One semi-intelligent thought and one weird piece of advice.
3M tub and shower tape may work as a friction pad. I use it for handles of knives that are too slick when bloody.
It is always wiser to claim to be a poor shot than a good shot. That way on one's bad days, one is still better than what one claimed and on one's good days all the losers have to explain why they got beat by a poor shooter.
DinDinA-2
02-09-2011, 12:00
It is always wiser to claim to be a poor shot than a good shot. That way on one's bad days, one is still better than what one claimed and on one's good days all the losers have to explain why they got beat by a poor shooter.
Wise advice. I am always amazed by the number of "one hole", "hole in hole", "clover leaf" shooters out there.
Gene Econ
02-09-2011, 17:27
I just ordered 1000 rounds of M855. It's from American Tactical. It should be in this week, I'll chrono it and see how it fairs in groups w/ my 16" DDM4. I'm zeroed at 50 with my eotech, but I've shot it out to 500 yards w/ a 3x magnifier using 75g TAP.
Ramirez:
It depends. I do not think anyone sells the 855 that is issued because of the tungsten tip. So, the stuff you are getting is probably pure lead core which should give more consistent performance than the issued stuff.
I am convinced that the little tungsten tip in the issued 855, if not very well aligned with the core, causes the problems with that particular round of ammo. Issued barrels, trashed from incessant blasting while conducting SRM, don't help the situation either.
That said, just about any commercially made AR will probably shoot better than its issued counterpart. I mention this because if you do run any tests, your rifle and ammo are probably not representative of the issued side.
My experience with issued M-4's and issued 855 using what ever low power optic Joe has is that given no wind conditions, ideal lighting, ideal contrast between target and background, that this combination is about maxed out at 500 yards on a upper torso size target. Past that and things become more chance than deliberate.
Gene
Gene Econ
02-09-2011, 17:49
One semi-intelligent thought and one weird piece of advice.
3M tub and shower tape may work as a friction pad. I use it for handles of knives that are too slick when bloody.
It is always wiser to claim to be a poor shot than a good shot. That way on one's bad days, one is still better than what one claimed and on one's good days all the losers have to explain why they got beat by a poor shooter.
Bob:
Learn something every day. The 3M stuff makes sense.
As for responding to the question about kneeling position, I have gotten some success with Joe's from the kneeling position in relatively short order -- say about a hour. Nothing spectacular and certainly nothing an experienced shooter can't deal with himself. Enough success that the Soldier is confident that he is in control and not the M-4 or A-2.
Why not mention how this can be done? Because I figure that if a guy can shoot even a top end match rifle and ammo that well at 300 then he would have figured out how to be in control of a kneeling position long ago.
Good wisdom -- I think we all learned that one in one form or the other!
Gene
cszakolczai
02-09-2011, 19:03
One semi-intelligent thought and one weird piece of advice.
3M tub and shower tape may work as a friction pad. I use it for handles of knives that are too slick when bloody.
It is always wiser to claim to be a poor shot than a good shot. That way on one's bad days, one is still better than what one claimed and on one's good days all the losers have to explain why they got beat by a poor shooter.
Never woulda thought of 3M tape, good idea.
Another is finding a local skateboard shop and getting a sheet of there grip tape. I picked up an entire sheet of tape which is something like 3 foot by 1 foot for 5 bucks. It's durabe as hell and it's already dark in color. I feel like someone on this forum gave me the idea so I dont take any credit for it.
We have found in training deploying units, whose marksmanship skills are poor to average at best that firing with an IBA is significantly easier than an IOTV. If you loosen the side straps completely on the shooting side and pull the shoulder of the IBA on that side to the middle of your chest as much as possible, then place the buttstock of the weapon in your shoulder pocket and release the IBA, it will hold the weapon in that place. It should cover a portion of the buttstock and the sling keeper. You may have to roll your shooting side shoulder forward slightly to maintain this position.
Additionally, with the kneeling position pull down slightly on the pistol grip, which will in turn lock your support side elbow into your knee reducing the wobble. A variation which will require more practice, but I have seen it work extremely well is to prop your shooting side knee up instead of the traditional support side, and rest your magazine on that thigh, using your support side hand to maintain the magazine in position on that knee.
I hope this helps, have a great day.
Ramirez:
It depends. I do not think anyone sells the 855 that is issued because of the tungsten tip. So, the stuff you are getting is probably pure lead core which should give more consistent performance than the issued stuff.
I am convinced that the little tungsten tip in the issued 855, if not very well aligned with the core, causes the problems with that particular round of ammo. Issued barrels, trashed from incessant blasting while conducting SRM, don't help the situation either.
That said, just about any commercially made AR will probably shoot better than its issued counterpart. I mention this because if you do run any tests, your rifle and ammo are probably not representative of the issued side.
My experience with issued M-4's and issued 855 using what ever low power optic Joe has is that given no wind conditions, ideal lighting, ideal contrast between target and background, that this combination is about maxed out at 500 yards on a upper torso size target. Past that and things become more chance than deliberate.
Gene
Thanks for the heads up, this was some dirt cheap stuff I bought for training. It was $259 for 990 rounds.
Snaquebite
02-10-2011, 12:06
I've used the 3M "tub tape" and Skate board tape on all sorts of things. From knife handles (like Bob) to butt pads an pistol grips. If you look hard enough you can find it in dark colors even black.
NoRoadtrippin
02-10-2011, 14:45
3-5 MOA? Most I've seen were 1-2MOA.
My OP was based on a comment made by the AWG instructors during CATC at Benning a couple of years ago. It might have been in reference to the contracted margin of error that the weapons are allowed. They might start of a bit better than 3-5. I believe he also meant it to reference the total package. I.e. in conjunction, the weapon, optic, and round is supposed to be a 3-5 minute system. Some of course might get more out of it than others can conjure.
Bob:
Learn something every day. The 3M stuff makes sense.
As for responding to the question about kneeling position, I have gotten some success with Joe's from the kneeling position in relatively short order -- say about a hour. Nothing spectacular and certainly nothing an experienced shooter can't deal with himself. Enough success that the Soldier is confident that he is in control and not the M-4 or A-2.
Why not mention how this can be done? Because I figure that if a guy can shoot even a top end match rifle and ammo that well at 300 then he would have figured out how to be in control of a kneeling position long ago.
Good wisdom -- I think we all learned that one in one form or the other!
Gene
Do you think you could PM your method for a stable kneeling position to me? I can maintain a reasonable level of accuracy while kneeling, but never feel stable, comfortable, or in control.
Iraqgunz
02-11-2011, 03:57
To the OP. Don't think that this is a dogpile, but I really have to call bullshit on your shooting. You're insulting the intelligence of those of us here who have been and still do shoot alot.
I have been shooting for 25 years. I consistently shoot high with the M16 and was on the battalion rifle team when I was in the Army. I build and work on guns quite a bit and get exposure to alot of shooters and platforms.
I had a Noveske 16" Recon. It was outfitted with a Leupold Mk 4 MR/T with illuminated reticle. Using 75gr. match ammo the best I could do is 1.25 MOA.
If I am not mistaken the dot on the M68 CCO is 4 MOA. I just don't see how you are getting such groups from an M4 with that type of ammo and sight.
If you are doing this consistently then you need to go buy some lottery tickets right now, because your luck is amazing.
This is why I like to shoot steel.
frostfire
02-11-2011, 10:24
I've used the 3M "tub tape" and Skate board tape on all sorts of things. From knife handles (like Bob) to butt pads an pistol grips. If you look hard enough you can find it in dark colors even black.
I sure continue to learn from ps.com. Never thought of "tub tape" before, and it's transparent too! How much rubbery-give does it have? Exposed to sharp surface, does it chip easily?
I've been using anti-slip stair strips on knives, pistol, rifle....even shoe...They work excellent even when completely wet with water, even oil! I think it's the most aggressive texture out there.
(copy and paste)sportys.com/toolshop/product/11476
The problem is that the abrasive grains do fall off, and I fear they day when they fall to the chamber. After zillions of draws/dry fire etc., they also start tearing off your skin (and clothes) too.