View Full Version : U.S. Consular Worker May Be Charged for Killing Pakistani Assailants
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/01/28/consular-worker-face-murder-charges-killing-pakistan-gunmen/
Always read the ROE's, boys... ( The ones in Pakistan are so ridiculous you may get killed if you obey them, however.)
ISLAMABAD– A U.S. consular worker has been remanded in police custody for six days after shooting dead two armed assailants in Pakistan.
Raymond Davis may face murder charges after the pair approached him on a motorcycle shortly after withdrawing money from an A.T.M. in the eastern city of Lahore on Thursday.
Police say Davis believed the men intended to rob him in his car in a crowded street. He apparently produced a Bareta and opened fire.
One gunman was killed at the scene by four separate shots. The second died later in hospital from three rounds.
A third Pakistani was killed by a U.S. consulate S.U.V. as it rushed to Davis’s aid after he apparently called the mission for help. The consulate says it will surrender the vehicle and the driver to police for the official investigation.
Friday in a Lahore military court, Davis apologized to the two men’s families.
In a two-sentence statement Friday, the U.S. embassy confirmed that a consulate staffer "was involved in an incident yesterday that regrettably resulted in the loss of life."
The U.S. was working with Pakistanis to "determine the facts and work toward a resolution," it said.
But a Pakistani police officer described Davis, said to be from Virginia, as a “security official” at the Lahore consulate while others said he called himself a “technical adviser” to the authorities.
As foreign mission worker he enjoys diplomatic immunity but Davis’s case is complicated by a ban on foreigners from carrying weapons in Pakistan and by local self-defense laws.Under Pakistani law one can only act in self-defense if attacked first. Merely being approached by someone wielding a gun is insufficient cause under law for the victim to pull the trigger. Also, when firing in self-defense it is only admissible to aim at non-life threatening parts of the assailant's body, such as arms or legs.
The killings complicate further an already fraught relationship the United States has with Pakistan, its most important ally in fighting terrorism and Islamic militancy.
Pakistani deaths at American hands are an immensely emotive issue here, where relentless CIA drone strikes aimed at insurgents have claimed the lives of hundreds of civilians in the past two years.
In recent weeks there have been rallies countrywide involving thousands of protesters, angry at the attacks that they view as an invasion of national sovereignty and resentful of the US-led occupation of Afghanistan which is often sold by radicals as an American war on Islam.
The U.S. Sate Department has just embarked on renewed efforts to improve America’s image with the Pakistan public amid tensions with the country’s government and the de facto ruling military.
The local provincial law minister, Rana Sanaullah, said no US pressure would be allowed to influence Davis’s case, should it come to a criminal court.
“We will not accept any pressure in this case. The guilty will be punished and the innocent will get justice,” he told reporters.
1. He is not with DSS (just want to get that out of the way for those thinking that with the "security official" thing).
2. This is what happens when you don't follow the contigency plans in place when the shit hits the fan. And that's about all I'm at liberty to discuss.
The Reaper
02-01-2011, 14:41
If he is on a Dip passport and they refuse to release him, there should be some serious repercussions.
The alleged Pak requirements to have to wait for assailants to shoot at you first and then aim for their legs probably explains the losses of several prominent Paks to assassins and the inability of their PSDs to protect them.
TR
...hard to hit those moving arms and legs?
I guess he missed.
There is more to diplomatic immunity than just having a diplomatic passport. There are different layers of diplomatic immunity (i.e. diplomatic vs. consular), and it isn't always a blanket. Under the circumstances in this case, he may not be covered. Which makes following SOP post-incident all the more important.
There is more to diplomatic immunity than just having a diplomatic passport. There are different layers of diplomatic immunity (i.e. diplomatic vs. consular), and it isn't always a blanket.
Ok now I'm interested. More to immunity...Such as?
One may carry the coveted black passport but I've found that a smile, a pack of Malboros, and even some chocolate goes a LONG way. Well, with border guards anyway. :D
Very few (only 2-3) Americans actually have diplomatic immunity at any given overseas post. Most of time the host nation will honor the Vienna conventions however more often than not, they are very selective as to which articles they choose to enforce. Bottom line: we're guests in their house playing by their rules which are subject to change.
State should have pulled him out of the country long ago. That's really gotta suck being in the Paki pokie. shudder. :eek:
Diplomatic immunity is only good when working for an embassy, and then only certain jobs (although unless a very small embassy, it's going to be more than just 2-3). Consular immunity covers those working at consulates (such as Lahore), and only covers certain jobs and while on official duty. You do something on your own time, you're not covered. Those TDY are also not fully covered.
As far as State getting him out...see above comment about following SOP.
Diplomatic immunity is only good when working for an embassy, and then only certain jobs (although unless a very small embassy, it's going to be more than just 2-3). Consular immunity covers those working at consulates (such as Lahore), and only covers certain jobs and while on official duty. You do something on your own time, you're not covered. Those TDY are also not fully covered.
As far as State getting him out...see above comment about following SOP.
Perhaps you should read the last page of your black passport...it says otherwise. ;)
Let me know how that works out for you. You don't bother to know the law that covers you, don't whine when you get jammed up.
Edited to add--Google diplomatic immunity and consular immunity (which covers Lahore, unless you are in Lahore via the Embassy in Islamabad). I can't explain any more simply than that.
The Reaper
02-01-2011, 20:58
How do foreign diplomats in the US get away with felonies and are sent home without prosecution?
TR
Peregrino
02-01-2011, 21:00
Blue - Good synopsis. DI is a complicated issue and this guy is about to be an object lesson. Maybe his experience will give somebody else pause to think before they're in a similar situation. I wish him better luck than he's had so far. He's going to need all he can get.
The rules are bilateral, Reaper. It would depend on their exact status in the U.S. If they are a diplomatic agent assigned to an Embassy here in the U.S., then they will probably have full diplomatic immunity and can be expelled but not prosecuted. Their mission, however, can waive that immunity since it belongs to the mission and not the person (same for U.S. personnel overseas). They can also be tried by their own government once they return home.
And the same would apply to this guy...IF he met those parameters.
Here is an explanation, for U.S. LE officers as they apply to foreign diplomats here. Reverse them and the same is generally true for U.S. personnel overseas, depending on the bilateral agreement (I'm not at work so I can't pull up the official stuff for us). It explains the differences between diplomatic and consular immunities, as well as how just holding a diplomatic passport (and even a diplomatic visa) does not mean you are entitled to full or any immunity. And also how those who are on temporary official duty to a mission do not enjoy ANY immunity.
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/150546.pdf
Peregrino--yes, he's going to need alot of luck and alot of cooperation. Funny thing is, we enjoyed a good relationship with the locals in Lahore. That's been shot to hell now.
The Reaper
02-01-2011, 21:20
Regardless, I suspect that he is better off than had he allowed the thugs to kill him.
I guess the Paks feel differently.
Wrong place, wrong time.
TR
True, but if I am told by a security guru to go to a certain ATM during the day and keep my head on a swivel, but instead decide to go to an ATM at midnight in a bad part of town and never look around and get jumped, then the pity party for me might be very brief, ya know? Big boy rules apply.
There is an innocent Paki kid who is dead because of American recklessness and no matter how one feels about the country as a whole, he didn't deserve it and I can't say I wouldn't feel like they do if the shoe was on the other foot.
This is not a good thing here.
Hate to see where this will go. Not much here too, which is good. I have heard that PAK-TB is calling for a public hanging and open confession over UAV strikes.
Story here (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41486447/)
mark46th
02-10-2011, 09:43
Hope they get him the hell out of there...
This is not a good thing here.
Hate to see where this will go. Not much here too, which is good.
There's quite a bit of "news" on the web unfortunately. There is a story in the UK Telegraph by Rob Crilly that isn't good. I will not post it here.
There's quite a bit of "news" on the web unfortunately. There is a story in the UK Telegraph by Rob Crilly that isn't good. I will not post it here.
Yeah I saw that one earlier today.. Whole thing is a joke. When I was there you had to really watch you foot placement.. Land mines everywhere... Pun intended.
As Far as working there.. Everyone is told their set of rules based off their job. BLUF - DSS and a select few are the only People that carry in Pakistan. Not a nice rule, but that is theirs. I not think this guy had a carry permit. But as TR said.. better than being Dead. I don't think he followed the set SOP for Country and/or his City.
It has been a long time since this happen so I have my assumptions.
Police report has been released...
ISLAMABAD, PAKISTAN - A Pakistani police report says a U.S. Embassy official jailed in the killing of two Pakistani men is "guilty" of murder, citing investigators' findings that the official shot each victim five times, including in their backs, and lied to police about how he arrived at the scene.
...
The five-page report, a copy of which was obtained by The Washington Post, spells out law enforcement authorities' case against the official, Raymond Davis, whom the police chief in the city of Lahore two days ago accused of "cold-blooded murder." The former Army Special Forces soldier has said that he fired in self-defense as the men tried to rob him.
The report says that although the men were armed, no witnesses saw them point weapons at Davis. The top U.S. official in Lahore, Carmela Conroy, disputed that Friday, saying police did not consider what she deemed witness accounts of the stickup, which were aired on Pakistani television in the days after the shooting.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/02/13/AR2011021301279.html
greenberetTFS
02-14-2011, 17:35
I've got a bad feeling that this guys going to get screwed..............:( I just don't trust Obama's people to fight for his release.........:( I just don't trust him fighting to get this guy out,I'm sorry but I think he'll let just let the Packie's try him......:( I hope I'm wrong...........:(
Big Teddy
As it stands from what I understand, I don't see where I would have done any differently than Davis did.
As it stands from what I understand, I don't see where I would have done any differently than Davis did.
are you privy to any additional information, or are you referring to the scenario of you sitting at a traffic light and a motorcycle pulling up with armed men on it?
are you privy to any additional information, or are you referring to the scenario of you sitting at a traffic light and a motorcycle pulling up with armed men on it?
I'm not privy to anything.
I just dislike the thought of being robbed.
We need to make them an offer they cannot refuse. Arms deals to India?
silentreader
02-14-2011, 19:21
http://www.economist.com/node/18073379
Loss and risk management
A new setback in the accident-prone alliance between Pakistan and America
Banyan
Feb 3rd 2011 | from PRINT EDITION
*
*
CONSPIRACIES are popular in Pakistan, especially those involving America. When an American, Raymond Davis, was arrested for murder after shooting two people on January 27th in traffic in the city of Lahore, many Pakistanis at once suspected the worst. The more that has leaked out about the case, the more their suspicions have seemed justified, and the more serious the damage to a “strategic partnership” vital to both countries. It will be mended—it always is, somehow—but not quickly, and not by Mr Davis’s early release.
The two countries have some common ground about what happened. Mr Davis shot two men on a motorcycle who approached his car stuck at a traffic light. Another motorcyclist was accidentally killed by a car rushing to Mr Davis’s assistance. America says Mr Davis is a diplomat, claims immunity for him and demands he be freed at once. It has not identified, let alone surrendered, the driver of the other car. Mr Davis has told police that he acted in self-defence when the men, who he thought were robbers, pulled out guns.
The version Pakistanis have pieced together from press reports, whispers from officials and frenzied chat-show speculation is more exciting.Mr Davis was not on a list of diplomatic personnel in Pakistan submitted by the American embassy to Pakistan’s foreign ministry on January 25th. In Lahore he had been to lunch with unnamed contacts in a well-known restaurant. He carried a Glock pistol and M16 bullets with hollow points. He shot one man once in the front and three times in the back. The other took eight bullets, mostly in the chest.
Rather than flee, Mr Davis stayed to photograph the dead men. His car was equipped with a video camera and radio equipment. American media have reported that Mr Davis is associated with a Florida-based outfit called Hyperion Protective Consultants (“your first choice in loss and risk management”). Some guess he is a CIA agent, who had been dining with informants or terrorist contacts, and the meeting went badly wrong. The men may have been muggers. But Pakistanis are outraged—they are already angry at attacks by unmanned American aircraft on targets in their country. Shireen Mazari of Pakistan Tehreek-e-Insaf, the party of Imran Khan, a former cricketer, thunders that America is “so used to killing Pakistanis and getting away with it.”
American officials have reportedly approached the families of those killed in Lahore to offer money in the hope they would ask for the charges against Mr Davis to be dropped. Asked about this on a television chat show, two relations said they would not take the money. But, they said, they might be swayed if America were to free Aafia Siddiqui, a Pakistani neuroscientist sentenced to 86 years in an American jail after trying to shoot soldiers and FBI agents while under interrogation in Afghanistan.
The inevitable anti-American protests Mr Davis has provoked have partially merged with another campaign: to uphold Pakistan’s harsh law against blasphemy. America and others have urged Pakistan to repeal or amend the law, which provides for the death penalty against blasphemers on very flimsy evidence. The Islamist right has rallied against any change, which is not on the cards—especially since the assassination last month of Salman Taseer, governor of Punjab province, for his support of reform.
The belief that America is callous about Pakistani lives and hostile towards Islam is the result of five decades of resentment. Pakistan has felt let down by America’s failure to back it in its wars against India, and abandoned when, after helping Pakistan fuel the anti-Soviet resistance in Afghanistan in the 1980s, America turned its attention elsewhere. America’s recent courtship of India and the favours it has bestowed on it have renewed Pakistanis’ sense of betrayal. Religious parties depicted the first Gulf war and the invasion of Iraq as attacks on Islam. Pakistani Pushtuns see the war in Afghanistan as being waged against ethnic, as well as religious, brothers.
Ijaz Gilani, of Gallup Pakistan, a pollster, says surveys show that distrust of America is “almost a national consensus”. This makes it hard for Pakistan’s president, Asif Ali Zardari, to do other than tell America that the Davis case must be handled by the courts. To intervene might trigger an outpouring of anger. Some of Mr Zardari’s opponents look at Egypt and Tunisia and see fellow Muslims taking to the streets to oust American-backed leaders. They ponder getting rid of their own unpopular president.
Yet Mr Zardari needs the United States more than ever. Pakistan is still grappling with the effects of last year’s floods, the country’s worst ever, affecting 20m people. Public finances are in a mess and the IMF, which has yet to disburse $3.5 billion of its 2008 bail-out, was in Islamabad this week to urge politically tricky fiscal reform. America is both by far the biggest donor to flood relief and the biggest source of other bilateral aid.
With strategic partners like these…
It also helps bankroll an army stretched by flood-relief work, continued vigilance on the eastern border with India and fighting with Islamist extremists in the tribal areas in the north-west. Some 1.2m people remain displaced by that conflict. An insurgency simmers in Balochistan. Across the country, religious and sectarian violence claims lives daily.
Yet America needs Pakistan as much. It continues to press the army to campaign in North Waziristan, one of the tribal areas, against militants using it as a base for operations in Afghanistan. And the worst fear haunting the West in Afghanistan is that the war will end not just in defeat in that benighted land of 30m people, but also in the radicalisation of Pakistan, with 190m and a nuclear arsenal said to be approaching 100 warheads. Much as they dislike it, America and Pakistan are stuck with each other.
I'm afraid Big Teddy's right, but I don't think it's just Obama- no US president would be able to get this guy out of Pakistan right now. With troops in Afghanistan, the last thing we need is an anti-US uprising in Pakistan. It looks like the best chance to get this thing resolved is for a little horse-trading to take place to get the support of the families and make this look like a victory for Pakistan as a country.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110215/ap_on_re_as/as_pakistan_detained_american
LAHORE, Pakistan – U.S. Sen. John Kerry promised the Pakistani people Tuesday that a jailed U.S. embassy worker will be subjected to a U.S. criminal investigation if he is released by the Pakistani government.
Kerry also expressed regret for the deaths of two Pakistani men in an apparent attempt to smooth over relations with the important ally in the war against extremists and al-Qaeda while still insisting that the American needs to be released.
Raymond Allen Davis has been held by Pakistani authorities since he fatally shot two Pakistanis in the eastern city of Lahore on Jan. 27, and his case has become a bitter point of contention between Washington and Islamabad, whose relationship is considered key to ending the war in Afghanistan.
U.S. officials have said Davis shot in self-defense when two armed men on a motorcycle tried to rob him. Pakistani police officials have said they plan to try him for murder, arguing that while the Pakistanis did have a loaded gun, there was no round in the chamber, and saying Davis shot one man as he was trying to flee.
Regardless of guilt, the U.S. says the detention of Davis, a former Special Forces soldier and an embassy worker, is illegal under international agreements covering diplomats. U.S. officials have threatened to withhold billions of dollars in aid to Pakistan unless Davis is freed.
A chorus of American officials have called for his release on the grounds of diplomatic immunity, including President Barack Obama on Tuesday.
Kerry took a softer approach, saying that international law should not be abandoned, but also pledging that Davis would be fully investigated.
"It is customary in an incident like this for our government to conduct a criminal investigation. That is our law. And I can give you the full assurance of our government today that that will take place," Kerry told reporters in the eastern city of Lahore. "So there is no such thing as a suggestion that something is out of law or that America thinks somehow we're not subject to the law."
Kerry spoke on a last-minute trip to Pakistan to try to heal relations over the case. He emphasized his sorrow over the incident and the deaths of the two men.
"I want to come here today to express our deepest regret for this tragic event and to express the sorrow of the American people for the loss of life that has taken place," he said.
His visit came as the Pakistani government appeared to be giving an opening for Davis' release through the courts.
A Pakistani federal government official told The Associated Press on Tuesday that after reviewing the matter, most experts in Pakistan's legal and foreign offices believe Davis is immune from prosecution. The official spoke on condition of anonymity because of the subject's sensitivity.
Pakistani government officials had avoided a definitive stand on Davis' legal status in the face of popular anger over the shootout. Thousands have rallied against Davis, demanding he be hanged, while the Taliban have threatened attacks against any Pakistani official involved in freeing the 36-year-old Virginia native.
___
Why Send this Buffoon?!
He's a senior Senator, former Presidential candidate, known to not be a 'hawk' militarilarly, a recognizable international face and senior politician who has distanced himself from the current conflicts and the former administration, less controversial and inflammatory than many others who could have been sent on this mission.
And so it goes...
Richard :munchin
He's a senior Senator, former Presidential candidate, known to not be a 'hawk' militarilarly, a recognizable international face and senior politician who has distanced himself from the current conflicts and the former administration, less controversial and inflammatory than many others who could have been sent on this mission.
And so it goes...
Richard :munchin
Could be. Could also be that his wife gave him a big enough allowance this week to bribe the Pakis.
greenberetTFS
02-16-2011, 08:41
Could be. Could also be that his wife gave him a big enough allowance this week to bribe the Pakis.
Are you implying that their administration may be corrupt?.............:rolleyes::p:eek:
Big Teddy :munchin
Are you implying that their administration may be corrupt?.............:rolleyes::p:eek:
Big Teddy :munchin
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/02/16/pakistan-official-murder-suspect-immunity/?test=latestnews
They like qisas:, BT:
Ahead of the meeting with Kerry, the prime minister raised the possibility of another solution to the debacle: having the U.S. compensate the families of the dead Pakistanis in lieu of sending Davis to prison. Such a system, known as "qisas," is used in Islamic law and accepted in Pakistan. However, at least some of the dead men's relatives have rejected the idea
Peregrino
02-16-2011, 21:33
Time to look at the other side of this episode. I sincerely hope somebody is collecting the lessons learned from this debacle. Starting with every step Davis took that led up to the incident and every SOP/RSO brief he ignored/violated before and after. I strongly suspect the resulting picture will not be flattering to Mr. Davis. SERE schools always need fresh object lessons, hopefully somebody will take them to heart and avoid something similar in the future. His actions have cost the US more than will ever see the light of day, especially given the delicate nature of our relationship with Pakistan.
bost1751
02-16-2011, 22:23
It seems an awful lot of judgement is being passed on Davis when the only information known is what the media has put out. It seems he was about to be shot and took measures to prevent it. That may be the SOP his employer has in place.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110217/ap_on_re_as/as_pakistan_detained_american
Paki's Obviously Adore John F. Kerry and Obama
And the target audience? The language used on the yellow and pinkish colored signs is telling. :rolleyes:
Richard :munchin
It seems an awful lot of judgement is being passed on Davis when the only information known is what the media has put out. It seems he was about to be shot and took measures to prevent it. That may be the SOP his employer has in place.
The information known by some here is not only what the media has put out.
Amen, Peregrino, amen.
And the target audience? The language used on the yellow and pinkish colored signs is telling. :rolleyes:
Richard :munchin
Obviously meant for the Senate.
It seems an awful lot of judgement is being passed on Davis when the only information known is what the media has put out. It seems he was about to be shot and took measures to prevent it. That may be the SOP his employer has in place.
:lifter
Obviously meant for the Senate.
Which side of the aisle? :confused:
Richard :munchin
Here (http://voices.washingtonpost.com/fact-checker/2011/02/raymond_davis_our_man_in_pakis.html?hpid=news-col-blog)'s an interesting article in the Wash Post that details issues related to the Vienna Conventions as well as some encounters with foreign dips in the US.
President Obama, however, may have pushed the envelope when he referred to Davis as "our diplomat." Davis may have had diplomatic cover, but not many diplomats carry a Glock pistol -- and then use it with lethal results. The circumstances of his employment -- and the incident in Lahore -- remain too murky to make a definitive judgment on the president's statement at this point.
crazyitalian
02-21-2011, 12:34
Well the Pakistani Intelligence community appears to be trying to further inflame the situation:
http://www.rnw.nl/english/bulletin/pakistan-intelligence-says-us-gunman-cia-0
A Pakistani intelligence official said Monday that an American in custody for killing two men was an undercover CIA contractor, in remarks likely to inflame a crisis with the United States.
Washington insists that Raymond Davis, who says he acted in self-defence, is a member of its Islamabad embassy's "administrative and technical staff" who has diplomatic immunity and should be released immediately.
But the unpopular government in Pakistan is under huge pressure from the political opposition not to cave in to US demands, with analysts even warning that the case could bring down the ruling Pakistan People's Party (PPP).
"It is beyond any shadow of a doubt that he was working for CIA," an official from Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) agency told AFP on condition of anonymity.
"He's on contract. He's not a regular CIA guy, but he's working for CIA. That's confirmed," the Pakistani official said.
Pakistan's powerful intelligence services and military have been angered by accusations that they support Taliban and Al-Qaeda-linked networks fighting US troops in Afghanistan, and need to do more to eliminate Islamist militants.
Few in Pakistan believe Davis, who reportedly worked for a security contractor and had a background in US Special Forces, is a regular diplomat.
Police told AFP they recovered a Glock pistol, four loaded magazines, a GPS navigation system and a small telescope from his car, after the shooting on a busy street in the eastern city of Lahore on January 27.
A third Pakistani was struck down and killed by a US diplomatic vehicle that came to Davis's assistance. US officials denied Pakistan access to the vehicle and the occupants are widely believed to have left the country.
Team Sergeant
02-21-2011, 12:38
Well the Pakistani Intelligence community appears to be trying to further inflame the situation:
http://www.rnw.nl/english/bulletin/pakistan-intelligence-says-us-gunman-cia-0
Everyone is "Special Forces" :rolleyes:
kollkash
02-21-2011, 13:13
Some more allegations breaking today by the ever-perceptive and responsible media. [read: sarcasm] I won't comment on the sources and contents merely because it perpetuates the unfortunate theme of the media doing WHATEVER it takes to gain viewers--placing lives at risk! It continues to amaze me that editors believe simply because another news source "breaks the story," it gives every other media outlet free-reign to follow suit. To me, that's like assuming murder is OK because others have done it.
Bottom line, I suspect that most of us here, let alone the media, know what actually occurred on the streets of Pakistan that day. I can only wish him some luck while he navigates this muck, which appears to get thicker by the day.
silentreader
02-21-2011, 13:36
Well, I will post a link, even though I think it's unfortunate that this is public. The NYtimes has a pretty thorough article (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/22/world/asia/22pakistan.html?_r=1&hp)- covers both sides, makes no claims of what actually happened, but does "confirm" Mr. Davis' affiliation with both the CIA and Army Special Forces.
Key quotes (though the rest of the article is worth reading too):
The New York Times had agreed to temporarily withhold information about Mr. Davis’s ties to the agency at the request of the Obama administration, which argued that disclosure of his specific job would put his life at risk. Several foreign news organizations have disclosed some aspects of Mr. Davis’s work with the C.I.A.. On Monday, American officials lifted their request to withhold publication, though George Little, a C.I.A. spokesman, declined any further comment
I think nobody believed he was affiliated with the State Department from the get go.
Even before his arrest, Mr. Davis’s C.I.A. affiliation was known to Pakistani authorities, who keep close tabs on the movements of Americans. His visa, presented to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs in late 2009, describes his job as a “regional affairs officer,” a common job description for officials working with the agency.
This is also not surprising. Unfortunately, it also meant there was almost 0 chance of his CIA affiliation remaining secret.
Mr. Davis served in the infantry in Europe — including a short tour as a peacekeeper in Macedonia — before joining the Third Special Forces Group in 1998, where he remained until he left the Army in 2003. The Army Special Forces —known as the Green Berets — are an elite group trained in foreign languages and cultures and weapons.
I hope this turns out well for Davis, but things are certainly looking worse.
I wonder who "outed" him as a CIA agent?
Seems the last time this happened the MSM went onto a nut roll trying to find out who did it.
silentreader
02-21-2011, 13:58
I wonder who "outed" him as a CIA agent?
Seems the last time this happened the MSM went onto a nut roll trying to find out who did it.
My money would be on the Pakistanis, at least in terms of who did it first.
The periods in the acronym...what's the hidden message there? CIA = U.N.C.L.E. ???? :confused:
Since he's a contractor, I'm not sure he's afforded the same protection as a regular staff officer such as Valerie Plame. Interesting dilemma nevertheless. 3 weeks in an ISI "detention facility", damn. Hang tough Ray! :lifter
greenberetTFS
02-21-2011, 14:00
I wonder who "outed" him as a CIA agent?
Seems the last time this happened the MSM went onto a nut roll trying to find out who did it.
This is another good reason why you can't trust people who have access to this type of privy information......... It's always dangerous if your in covert operations that someone in our "own" government would sell you out for various reasons...:mad:
Big Teddy :munchin
This is another good reason why you can't trust people who have access to this type of privy information......... It's always dangerous if your in covert operations that someone in our "own" government would sell you out for various reasons............:mad:
Big Teddy :munchin
Big Teddy,
There has always been "Murphy's Laws" and the fact that he is guaranteed to show up when not needed. However, these days, there is another evil twin of his that is utilized. It is referred to as the "Kicked Under The Bus" Syndrome. It has been used a lot lately. :rolleyes::D
They're good at outing themselves without any help. Just like Ms. Plame.
They're good at outing themselves without any help. Just like Ms. Plame.
Huh? :confused:
Huh? :confused:
Don't take the new movie as truth.
The neighbors knew she worked for the CIA. But that didn't fit the template of "Bad Bush" and the press quickly moved on to what version they wanted to show as the truth.
Sacamuelas
02-21-2011, 16:45
Pete-
I think Lindy was responding to the post as if written to mean that ALL CIA personnel were "good at outing themselves". Just a hunch. I don't think many on this site take ms plame's side of the issue in her particular circumstances. course' I could be wrong. :D:munchin
bubblehead
02-22-2011, 12:14
Interesting read on the subject over here:
http://www.counterpunch.org/lindorff02082011.html
Wikipedia also has some lengthy, sourced material:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raymond_Allen_Davis
There was no "all" in my post, implied or otherwise.
But it isn't exactly rare that they have had to be reminded that the way they conduct themselves (examples of which I am not going to post on an open forum) lends itself to self-outing. When every other official American is doing one thing, and you're supposed to be one of them but doing something completely different, well....it's not rocket science.
When every other official American is doing one thing, and you're supposed to be one of them but doing something completely different, well....it's not rocket science.
That opinion indicates a decided lack of experience with embassy staffing and activities.
Richard :munchin
The Reaper
02-22-2011, 13:46
Please keep this thread unclassified.
No one needs to be getting into specifics of DoS and intelligence functions.
TR
That opinion indicates a decided lack of experience with embassy staffing and activities.
Richard :munchin
Hahahaha...hahahaha. That's funny LOL.
Hahahaha...hahahaha. That's funny LOL.
I'm pretty sure this is NOT what is meant by "Always Out Front". :(
Hahahaha...hahahaha. That's funny LOL.
PM sent.
Richard
oksooner
02-24-2011, 01:11
We talked about this in my class today, my professor is pretty sure the guy is CIA, and had some good theories about it.
Prayers go out to the man regardless, hopefully everything ends well.
We talked about this in my class today, my professor is pretty sure the guy is CIA, and had some good theories about it.
Prayers go out to the man regardless, hopefully everything ends well.
Threadkiller.
oksooner
02-24-2011, 11:19
Threadkiller.
im confused here.
im confused here.
What class in what school? Who is the professor? How is he qualified to make that surmisal?
(Pink font indicates sarcasm, irony, humor, etc., incidentally.)
oksooner
02-25-2011, 10:32
What class in what school? Who is the professor? How is he qualified to make that surmisal?
(Pink font indicates sarcasm, irony, humor, etc., incidentally.)
The class is "CIA and Intelligence Reform" and the teacher is the dean of the honors college at the University of Oklahoma. He received a BA cum laude from Yale (1967), and his MA and PhD from Stanford (1969, 1978) in political science. He was army from 69-71. He then taught at Boston college and Georgia tech and now teaches here. He has a good relationship with some of the former agents here on campus and with the president of our university David Boren who i believe was the longest sitting member on the Senate Intelligence Committee, and whose protege is George Tenet.
The class is "CIA and Intelligence Reform" and the teacher is the dean of the honors college at the University of Oklahoma. He received a BA cum laude from Yale (1967), and his MA and PhD from Stanford (1969, 1978) in political science. He was army from 69-71. He then taught at Boston college and Georgia tech and now teaches here. He has a good relationship with some of the former agents here on campus and with the president of our university who i believe was the longest sitting member on the Senate Intelligence Committee.
Those are interesting qualifications.
oksooner
02-25-2011, 10:40
Those are interesting qualifications.
Cant tell if thats sarcasm or not.
"His publications have appeared in American Political Science Review, Journal of Politics, Western Political Quarterly, American Journal of Political Science, and Inter-American Studies and World Affairs. A book chapter has appeared in Massachusetts State Government. Current teaching and research interests include policy-making in the American states, Congressional oversight of U.S. intelligence agencies, U.S. foreign policy toward diverse Islamic societies, the politics of U.S. economic policy, and socioeconomic change in the less developed countries." (from OU honors college website).
Obviously i dont know if he was an agent or not, but i do know he is very knowledgeable and connected in what he teaches.
Cant tell if thats sarcasm or not.
"His publications have appeared in American Political Science Review, Journal of Politics, Western Political Quarterly, American Journal of Political Science, and Inter-American Studies and World Affairs. A book chapter has appeared in Massachusetts State Government. Current teaching and research interests include policy-making in the American states, Congressional oversight of U.S. intelligence agencies, U.S. foreign policy toward diverse Islamic societies, the politics of U.S. economic policy, and socioeconomic change in the less developed countries." (from OU honors college website).
Obviously i dont know if he was an agent or not, but i do know he is very knowledgeable and connected in what he teaches.
If I'm being sarcastic, I'll use pink. Unless I forget.
The qualifications are interesting, because they lend validity to your original statement.
It's easier for me to understand an opinion when I know whether it's based on substantive conjecture or is just typical college professor liberal bullshit.
ZonieDiver
02-25-2011, 10:47
Pink font = Sarcasm. Read and learn, grasshopper.
oksooner
02-25-2011, 10:51
If I'm being sarcastic, I'll use pink. Unless I forget.
The qualifications are interesting, because they lend validity to your original statement.
It's easier for me to understand an opinion when I know whether it's based on substantive conjecture or is just typical college professor liberal bullshit.
Ahh, yea i figured someone would bring up the point of typical college professor liberal bullshit, i hate it just as much as yall do. But this is actually one of the most interesting classes ive ever taken and OU is a surprisingly good university to be at if your interested in the intelligence community.
@ZonieDiver
yea i just realized that, grasshopper is learning :D
Ret10Echo
02-25-2011, 11:46
typical college professor liberal bullshit.
Every time I use that phrase my word-processing software asks me if I want to "Delete Repeated Word(s)"...
Funny how that works
Ahh, yea i figured someone would bring up the point of typical college professor liberal bullshit, i hate it just as much as yall do. But this is actually one of the most interesting classes ive ever taken and OU is a surprisingly good university to be at if your interested in the intelligence community.
Can I vote? I don't personally know Dr. Ray but I call BS as he seems like a strap hanger. Seems like he's just an academic (not that there's anything wrong with that) and his bio accounts for all but 4 years at univeristy. I have yet to meet anyone who has ever been associated with CIA that call themselves or their coworker "Agents". Check out their unclass web: jobs end in officer. It's like that for a reason. Anyone who's familiar with the "biz" knows this and respects it.
If you're interested in an education in intel, you aren't going to get it in any school. You have to hit streets, field, mountains, desert, etc. That's pretty much the reason overseas experience (study abroad) is MANDATED with the David Boren scholarships by NSEP.
Oh, by the way oksooner, I graduated HS in Leflore County. Go Cowboys! :D
Go Cowboys! :D
You were doing fine until then.
You were doing fine until then.
My friends tell me stories of a weekend spent up in Fayetteville, AR meeting the student bodies (I'm not 100% sure I'm allowed back there though). I remember driving through thinking "this is a nice town". :D
oksooner
03-03-2011, 18:48
Can I vote? I don't personally know Dr. Ray but I call BS as he seems like a strap hanger. Seems like he's just an academic (not that there's anything wrong with that) and his bio accounts for all but 4 years at univeristy. I have yet to meet anyone who has ever been associated with CIA that call themselves or their coworker "Agents". Check out their unclass web: jobs end in officer. It's like that for a reason. Anyone who's familiar with the "biz" knows this and respects it.
If you're interested in an education in intel, you aren't going to get it in any school. You have to hit streets, field, mountains, desert, etc. That's pretty much the reason overseas experience (study abroad) is MANDATED with the David Boren scholarships by NSEP.
Oh, by the way oksooner, I graduated HS in Leflore County. Go Cowboys! :D
Dr. Ray is mostly academic from what i know, however i do know he is friends with former intel professionals (some here on campus) and knows more about the intelligence community than i could ever hope to know. The man is very well informed.
Yes you are correct about the CIA not calling themselves agents, thats just me forgetting that and stupidly saying it because its been drilled into my head from hollywood :mad:. The intelligence sources recruited overseas are known as agents however.
Trust me ive spent hours reading on the unclass website of the CIA and other intel agencies. My major does require studying abroad and i did talk to an Officer in Residence from the CIA here on campus and he says im on the right track going to college and developing a major and working on foreign language and studiny abroad, so im not to eager to just go "hit the streets."
EDIT: Im terribly sorry your a cowboys fan :P, Boomer Sooner!
ZonieDiver
03-03-2011, 20:01
Dr. Ray is mostly academic from what i know, however i do know he is friends with former intel professionals (some here on campus) and knows more about the intelligence community than i could ever hope to know. The man is very well informed.
Yes you are correct about the CIA not calling themselves agents, thats just me forgetting that and stupidly saying it because its been drilled into my head from hollywood :mad:. The intelligence sources recruited overseas are known as agents however.
Trust me ive spent hours reading on the unclass website of the CIA and other intel agencies. My major does require studying abroad and i did talk to an Officer in Residence from the CIA here on campus and he says im on the right track going to college and developing a major and working on foreign language and studiny abroad, so im not to eager to just go "hit the streets."
EDIT: Im terribly sorry your a cowboys fan :P, Boomer Sooner!
Does your major require capitalization and punctuation, or is that only at OSU?
The Creepy One
03-03-2011, 20:10
or is that only at OSU?
You're hurting my feelings.
:munchin :D ;)
oksooner
03-03-2011, 21:54
Does your major require capitalization and punctuation, or is that only at OSU?
Unfortunately i grew up in the age of texting and email lingo and apply it to forums and facebook. Generally unless im writing an essay, some sort of professional document, or trying to impress someone i usually dont care. My internet has a spellcheck built in, i just choose not to use it.
feel free to critique this one on grammatical errors :D
Peregrino
03-03-2011, 22:22
feel free to critique this one on grammatical errors :D
Thanks, I will. The reason we denigrate sloppy communications protocols; e.g., internet twits, is because one of the primary purposes of this forum is mentoring individuals who aspire to join our ranks. We always want our guys to care - first impressions only happen once and recovery from failure is an uphill battle. It's almost impossible to impress you kids (I'm 53 and already working on a second career; I can get away with calling people your age kids) with the importance of making a professional "first impression" because you do the majority of your communication within your peer group. We want to prepare individuals who would join our peer group to communicate with educated professionals, decision makers, and literal power brokers - as in life and death decision makers. Most of us see internet shortcuts as sloppy habits; ones you’re likely to fall back on at some inopportune moment. Sloppy habits don't impress decision makers and if they're not impressed, they don't listen. If you had something important to communicate, you've failed in your mission - in an arena where failure frequently has serious repercussions. That’s why we’re hard asses about grammar and punctuation. (Ask your professor or one of his contacts how much writing an FSO does – and what their employment/promotion potential is if it’s not done well.)
oksooner
03-03-2011, 22:35
Thanks, I will. The reason we denigrate sloppy communications protocols; e.g., internet twits, is because one of the primary purposes of this forum is mentoring individuals who aspire to join our ranks. We always want our guys to care - first impressions only happen once and recovery from failure is an uphill battle. It's almost impossible to impress you kids (I'm 53 and already working on a second career; I can get away with calling people your age kids) with the importance of making a professional "first impression" because you do the majority of your communication within your peer group. We want to prepare individuals who would join our peer group to communicate with educated professionals, decision makers, and literal power brokers - as in life and death decision makers. Most of us see internet shortcuts as sloppy habits; ones you’re likely to fall back on at some inopportune moment. Sloppy habits don't impress decision makers and if they're not impressed, they don't listen. If you had something important to communicate, you've failed in your mission - in an arena where failure frequently has serious repercussions. That’s why we’re hard asses about grammar and punctuation. (Ask your professor or one of his contacts how much writing an FSO does – and what their employment/promotion potential is if it’s not done well.)
I have no aspirations or intentions to become special forces. I know when and where to be formal just don't see an internet forum as one of them. You can ask my professors and the contacts I have talked to I'm very professional and formal when it comes to talking, and or writing (even emailing) them.
I understand what your saying and agree with it, I guess I just have a harder time justifying its importance in instances like this, because most of my communication is done through informal modes.
Entire post.Taking this BB seriously is a good way to get members of this BB to take you seriously.
Peregrino
03-03-2011, 22:53
I have no aspirations or intentions to become special forces. I know when and where to be formal just don't see an internet forum as one of them. You can ask my professors and the contacts I have talked to I'm very professional and formal when it comes to talking, and or writing (even emailing) them.
I understand what your saying and agree with it, I guess I just have a harder time justifying its importance in instances like this, because most of my communication is done through informal modes.
Discipline is doing the right thing, even when nobody else cares.
oksooner
03-04-2011, 07:49
Point taken gentlemen.
blue02hd
03-04-2011, 08:06
Point taken gentlemen.
You are the walking example of one with more education than they can understand, and a complete lack of wisdom to use it.
Your presence will be appreciated by your peers, as they will be promoted against your short-comings.
oksooner
03-04-2011, 08:17
You are the walking example of one with more education than they can understand, and a complete lack of wisdom to use it.
Your presence will be appreciated by your peers, as they will be promoted against your short-comings.
I really did not mean to come across as some educated snob, because I am not. I hope to prove you wrong about my shortcomings promoting my peers.
Also looking back I can see how saying "feel free to critique this one on grammatical errors" and possibly some others came across as smart ass comments. I apologize for that.
I really did not mean to come across as some educated snob, because I am not. I hope to prove you wrong about my shortcomings promoting my peers.
Also looking back I can see how saying "feel free to critique this one on grammatical errors" and possibly some others came across as smart ass comments. I apologize for that.
Rule of thumb is to be smart enough to put down your shovel.
Peregrino
03-04-2011, 09:15
OK Guys - We've strayed pretty far afield. Let's get back on topic. We still have a problem in Pakistan. One that very likely was caused/contributed to by a lack of SA, FTFSI, and poor discipline; that has now degenerated to an apparently insoluable international impasse with significant personal risk/consequences for the perpetrator. Talk about the La Brea Tar Pits.
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/03/04/lawyer-says-blood-money-best-way-free-man/?test=latestnews
The payment of "blood money" to the heirs of the two men killed by an American CIA contractor in Pakistan is the best way to free him, his lawyer said Friday.
The remarks by Zahid Bokhari were the clearest indication yet that the United States believes that paying compensation may play a role in getting Raymond Allen Davis out of jail and defusing a crisis that has exposed the fragility of ties between Pakistan and the U.S.
Snip
The payment of "blood money" to the heirs of the two men killed by an American CIA contractor in Pakistan is the best way to free him, his lawyer said Friday. The remarks by Zahid Bokhari were the clearest indication yet that the United States believes that paying compensation may play a role in getting Raymond Allen Davis out of jail and defusing a crisis that has exposed the fragility of ties between Pakistan and the U.S.
The above reminds me of a quote from Ghost Wars by Coll. IIRC an initial briefing attributed to the CIA Islamabad Station Chief went something like,
" Remember, at some point, in this region, basically everyone is a carpet salesman."
Inherently pragmatic ,if not PC, and the opinion of an experienced man on the ground. I guess we will see.
Pakistani leadership can hem and haw, do what it takes to save face, and jack up the asking price, but in regard to cost in the big picture can this regime afford the long term ramifications of a growing rift with not only America, but the world diplomatic community, over two dead criminals, and one unfortunate civilian? Their stability argument like many a point they have made regarding this incident is complete BS. If the revolutionary spirit present across the Islamic world spreads to Pakistan, will the catalyst be the perception they kowtow to America, or the fact this Military dictatorship treats its people like crap? There might be issues they would take such risk for, but given the value of life in the Third World, is this one of them?
The following was on the Daily Beast this morning. It affects Davis. The whole articles is here. http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2011-03-05/al-qaedas-deadly-new-nest-in-pakistan/
The murder this week of another prominent Pakistani politician who advocated tolerance and democracy is the latest sign of how al Qaeda has created an underground syndicate of terror within the Pakistani state that threatens its very survival. By building alliances with like-minded jihadists inside Pakistan, al Qaeda has become a real and present danger to the sixth-largest country in the world, a country with the fastest-growing arsenal of nuclear weapons in the world.
Pakistani Christian mourners attend the funeral of their slain leader Shahbaz Bhatti in his native village Khushpur near Faisalabad, Pakistan on Friday, March 4, 2011.
Minister of Minority Affairs Shahbaz Bhatti was assassinated in Islamabad in broad daylight by terrorists who sprayed him and his car with bullets. They left behind leaflets taking credit for the deed in the name of al Qaeda and its Pakistani ally, Tehrik-i-Taliban. Bhatti had been an outspoken advocate of repealing the death sentence for blasphemy—which prohibits any criticism of Islam or the Prophet Muhammad on pain of death. The death sentence is a legacy of Pakistan’s jihadist dictator, General Zia ul Haq, who ruled from 1977 to 1988 and was the beneficiary of billions of dollars in U.S. aid from the Carter and Reagan administrations.
The assassination of another critic of the blasphemy law the governor of Punjab, Salman Taseer, by his own body guard in January showed how the terror underground has penetrated the very security establishment it is fighting. According to the Pakistani press, the assassin had a long track record of sympathy for extremist Islam. Yet he also guarded the President or Prime Minister eighteen times in the last three years, and was assigned to guard two (unnamed) foreign dignitaries before he shot dead the governor of the country’s largest province.
Just before her death, Ms. Bhutto warned that she could see al Qaeda “marching on Islamabad in two or four years.” By murdering Bhatti this week, al Qaeda showed it is on the streets of Islamabad today, operating with impunity.
Of course, the wife of Pakistan’s President Asif Zardari, Benazir Bhutto, was also assassinated in 2007 by the same syndicate of terror. The U.N.’s investigation concluded al Qaeda was behind her death as well, probably the jihadists’ biggest success since 9/11. At the time al Qaeda said it had “terminated the most precious American asset” in Pakistan, a judgment that has stood the passing of time. Ms. Bhutto was a flawed leader but she may have been the last really good chance at keeping a moderate Pakistan alive.
The Zardari government has been systematically weakened by the army since it came to power. The government’s own corruption and incompetence has made it easy. The army has waged an unprecedented series of military campaigns against the jihadists in the remote tribal regions along the Afghanistan border, but it has had little or no success in curbing the al Qaeda-Taliban threat in the country‘s urban areas. It is in the cities like Lahore, Karachi and Islamabad that the danger is actually the most acute.
Another al Qaeda ally, Lashkar e-Taiba, which carried out the attack on Mumbai in November 2008 from Karachi still enjoys the patronage of the army. The interrogation of the convicted American citizen, David Headley, who did the reconnaissance missions to prepare for the Mumbai attacks show he was an agent of both al Qaeda, Lashkar e-Taiba and the Pakistani army’s Inter Services Intelligence bureau, the ISI. The man who was head of the ISI when the Mumbai plot was hatched and developed is today Chief of Army Staff, General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani.
The murders have had their intended chilling effect. Other moderates and democrats must live in fear for their lives or go into exile. Intimidation is stifling debate in Pakistan. The murderers have been hailed at heroes for fighting infidels. Bhatti was a Christian and an easy target for the extremist machine. The al Qaeda senior leadership, Osama bin Laden and Ayman Zawahiri, learned from their mistakes in the past in Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Iraq--where they allowed al Qaeda to be isolated from the mainstream of Islamist politics and then marginalized. In Pakistan they have brilliantly woven alliances with Pakistani groups that share their global jihadist goals and provide protection and space for al Qaeda to survive. They serve in effect as force multipliers for al Qaeda.
The U.S.-Pakistan relationship today is clouded by the fate of one man, Raymond Davis, who has been arrested for killing two Pakistani men last month in Lahore. We are demanding his release under diplomatic immunity. The jihadists and their allies are demanding he be hung. Lashkar-e-Taiba is leading the chants. The Zardari government is too weak to take them on. The ISI wants U.S. intelligence operations in the country curbed and under its full control as the price for letting Davis go. There is no solution yet in sight.
The stakes here are enormous. Pakistan is on track to be the fifth-largest nuclear weapons state in the foreseeable future, surpassing the United Kingdom. With the new reactors it has built or is building with Chinese help, it will surpass France to become the fourth largest nuclear power in a few years. Just before her death, Ms. Bhutto warned that she could see al Qaeda “marching on Islamabad in two or four years.” By murdering Bhatti this week, al Qaeda showed it is on the streets of Islamabad today, operating with impunity.
oksooner
03-06-2011, 20:56
"The U.S.-Pakistan relationship today is clouded by the fate of one man, Raymond Davis, who has been arrested for killing two Pakistani men last month in Lahore. We are demanding his release under diplomatic immunity. The jihadists and their allies are demanding he be hung. Lashkar-e-Taiba is leading the chants. The Zardari government is too weak to take them on. The ISI wants U.S. intelligence operations in the country curbed and under its full control as the price for letting Davis go. There is no solution yet in sight."
That is absolutely ridiculous, I can't really say I am surprised though considering the hate Pakistani Intelligence hates US intel.
I don't see the US buying it, especially for a contractor. What do yall think?
Oldrotorhead
03-06-2011, 22:15
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/03/04/lawyer-says-blood-money-best-way-free-man/?test=latestnews
The payment of "blood money" to the heirs of the two men killed by an American CIA contractor in Pakistan is the best way to free him, his lawyer said Friday.
The remarks by Zahid Bokhari were the clearest indication yet that the United States believes that paying compensation may play a role in getting Raymond Allen Davis out of jail and defusing a crisis that has exposed the fragility of ties between Pakistan and the U.S.
Snip
I think you are correct with respect to the blood money. Who should negotiate to payment? I really question to Federal Government's ability to do this in context and considering local conditions and expectations. Morally and practically it is wrong to leave him there to suffer whatever the Pakistanis have for him and our standards don't apply in that AO. This would not be a question of randsom, but of blood money to placate the family.
"The U.S.-Pakistan relationship today is clouded by the fate of one man, Raymond Davis, who has been arrested for killing two Pakistani men last month in Lahore. We are demanding his release under diplomatic immunity. The jihadists and their allies are demanding he be hung. Lashkar-e-Taiba is leading the chants. The Zardari government is too weak to take them on. The ISI wants U.S. intelligence operations in the country curbed and under its full control as the price for letting Davis go. There is no solution yet in sight."
That is absolutely ridiculous, I can't really say I am surprised though considering the hate Pakistani Intelligence hates US intel.
I don't see the US buying it, especially for a contractor. What do yall think?
Sooner,
How many times have you traveled OCONUS to a location that required a visa for entry? Do you really think there would be a difference between a staff officer and contractor in a situation such as this? Ever heard the term one team, one fight?
I think you've watched too many movies. Do you REALLY think this is just about Ray's unlawful detention? Next you're going to tell me Watergate was just about a break-in!
L
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110316/wl_nm/us_pakistan_usa;_ylt=AjoFp_BWxs1nnMppuc1nz.NvaA8F; _ylu=X3oDMTJnbnR0ZjdjBGFzc2V0A25tLzIwMTEwMzE2L3VzX 3Bha2lzdGFuX3VzYQRjcG9zAzMEcG9zAzkEc2VjA3luX3RvcF9 zdG9yeQRzbGsDcGFraXN0YW5jb3Vy
This is not good. I hope there is a way to get him out of there.
Wiseman - have you been following the two threads on this issue over in the Mid East section of the board.
Yes I followed it. My apologies for this repost, can the moderators move my update to that particular thread?
Done - do we need to change your username? Richard
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/raymond-davis-freed-after-blood-money-deal/763316/
CIA contractor Raymond Davis, who has been indicted earlier in the day on two murder charges in Pakistan, was acquitted and released on Wednesday after a deal to pay blood money to the victims' families was reached, Punjab Law Minister Rana Sanaullah said.
Politics - perception, power and $$.
And so it goes...
Richard :munchin
A CIA contractor who shot and killed two Pakistani men was freed from prison on Wednesday after the United States paid $2.34 million in "blood money" to the victims' families, Pakistani officials said, defusing a dispute that had strained ties between Washington and Islamabad.
In what appeared to be carefully choreographed end to the diplomatic crisis, the U.S. Embassy said the Justice Department had opened an investigation into the killings on Jan. 27 by Raymond Allen Davis. It thanked the families for "their generosity" in pardoning Davis, but did not mention any money changing hands.
The killings and detention of Davis triggered a fresh wave of anti-American sentiment in Pakistan and were testing an alliance seen as key to defeating al-Qaida and ending the war in Afghanistan.
The tensions were especially sharp between the CIA and Pakistan's powerful Inter Services Intelligence Agency, which says it did not know Davis was operating in the country. One ISI official said it had backed the "blood money" deal. There appeared to be little public backlash as night fell in Pakistan.
Davis claimed he acted in self-defense when he killed the two men on the street in the eastern city of Lahore.
The United States had insisted Davis was covered by diplomatic immunity, but the weak government here, facing intense pressure from Islamist parties, sections of the media and the general public, refused to acknowledge the protection.
The payment of "blood money", sanctioned under Pakistani law, had been suggested as the best way to end the dispute.
Given the high stakes for both nations, few imagined either side would allow it to derail the relationship. The main question was how long it would take to reach a deal.
Punjab Law Minister Rana Sanaullah said Davis was charged with murder Wednesday in a court that was convened in a prison in Lahore, but was immediately pardoned by the families of the victims after the payment.
Reporters were not allowed to witness the proceedings.
"This all happened in court and everything was according to law," he said. "The court has acquitted Raymond Davis. Now he can go anywhere."
Raja Muhammad Irshad, a laywer for the families, said 19 male and female relatives appeared in court to accept the money.
He said each told the court "they were ready to accept the blood money deal without pressure and would have no objection if the court acquitted Raymond Davis."
Representatives of the families had previously said they would refuse any money.
Some media reports said the some of the families had been given permission to live in the United States.
Irshad said that was not discussed in court.
The case dominated headlines and television shows in Pakistan, with pundits using it to whip up hatred against the already unpopular United States. While the case played out in court, many analysts said that the dispute was essentially one between the CIA and the ISA, and that they would need to resolve their differences before Davis could be freed.
One ISI official said CIA director Leon Panetta and ISI chief Gen. Shuja Pasha talked in mid-February to smooth out the friction between the two spy agencies. A U.S. official confirmed that the phone call took place.
Pasha demanded the U.S. identify "all the Ray Davises working in Pakistan, behind our backs," the official said.
He said Panetta agreed "in principle" to declare such employees, the official said, but would not confirm if the agency had done so.
A second ISI official said as a result of that conversation the ISI — which along with the army is a major power center in the country — then backed an effort to help negotiate the "blood money." The officials spoke on condition of anonymity because they are not allowed to give their names to the media.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110316/ap_on_re_as/as_pakistan_detained_american
Sirs,
A conflicting statement from our MissSecretary of State:
(CBS/AP) Updated 1:20 p.m. ET
LAHORE, Pakistan - A CIA contractor who shot and killed two Pakistani men was freed from prison on Wednesday after the United States paid $2.34 million in "blood money" to the victims' families, Pakistani officials said, defusing a dispute that had strained ties between Washington and Islamabad.
Secretary of State Hillary Clinton denied the U.S. paid compensation for Davis' release.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/03/16/501364/main20043734.shtml
I don't understand the need for posturing on her part. Is this an attempt to keep an official stance that we disagree with the situation?
I'm glad that Davis is free in any case.