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MVP
01-12-2011, 07:42
http://cgi.ebay.com/WWII-ORIGINAL-GERMAN-ELITE-DIVISION-WATCH-CYMA-SWISS-/130398734259?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e5c5ec7b3

MVP

cszakolczai
01-12-2011, 08:35
http://cgi.ebay.com/WWII-ORIGINAL-GERMAN-ELITE-DIVISION-WATCH-CYMA-SWISS-/130398734259?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e5c5ec7b3

MVP

Does that mean, "property jump school tolz"? I know eigentum means property, the Ju Sch I'm not really sure about.

The item looks like one of the submarine watches which were used to time torpedo's.

The Reaper
01-12-2011, 08:40
Why would a Swiss watch sold to a German in the 1940s say "Swiss Made" on it in English?

TR

JJ_BPK
01-12-2011, 09:14
Why would a Swiss watch sold to a German in the 1940s say "Swiss Made" on it in English?

TR

The US Tariff Act (section 304,19 U.S.C. § 1304). set our import standard in 1930.

Not sure when Europe or other countries started using the "made in XXX" tag for country of origin??

ddoering
01-13-2011, 06:18
Does that mean, "property jump school tolz"? I know eigentum means property, the Ju Sch I'm not really sure about.

The item looks like one of the submarine watches which were used to time torpedo's.


Its trying to say it is property of the Junkerschule, Bad Toelz. The SS ran an officer course there that ended in 1945. The engraving does not look like anything from the period to me and the abbrieviation is not what one would expect.

MVP
01-13-2011, 06:38
A very knowledgeable collector that was in 1/10 circa 83-86 sent the link to me. I find the watch very plausible. The runic SS has been hidden and the abreviations for JunkerSchule Toelz also seem correct. Unfortunately this type of stuff is so rarely seen it is hard to say but typically "schoolhouse" stuff is not faked.

MVP

cszakolczai
01-13-2011, 09:42
So would this be used as a stop watch for running or something of that nature?

MVP
01-13-2011, 12:30
SS-Junkerschule Bad Tölz was established in 1937 and was the officers' training school for the Waffen-SS. It was the SS equivalent of Britain's Sandhurst and the USA's West Point. I would bet pocket watches were issued the same way as wrist watches are military issue today. Pocket watches were popular in that time, my grandfather carried one until he died in 1968.


MVP

cszakolczai
01-13-2011, 12:47
SS-Junkerschule Bad Tölz was established in 1937 and was the officers' training school for the Waffen-SS. It was the SS equivalent of Britain's Sandhurst and the USA's West Point. I would bet pocket watches were issued the same way as wrist watches are military issue today. Pocket watches were popular in that time, my grandfather carried one until he died in 1968.


MVP

Ecellent thanks for the information.

ddoering
01-15-2011, 21:37
The chance that this item is the real deal is so small that you might as well throw your money away.

cszakolczai
01-16-2011, 00:38
I was confused as I thought, Bad Tolz was what the US Army named the base where 10th group was stationed. I didnt actually know the name was kept from earlier times. I thought following the war the US changed a lot of the names including Tolz I know this was done in certain areas across Europe. Especially one which had SS connections I thought that would be changed immediately. I posed this question to a friend who served with 10th group earlier on and he explained the history further.

So having said all this the seller attempting to connect this to an SS unit is just a feeble attempt at making a pocket watch very valuable. SS items sell for thousands easily. A gentleman I spoke with who collected SS items paid over 10 thousand for an original SS helmet. The sad part is ten thousand isnt even the highest price I've seen paid.

DJ Urbanovsky
01-16-2011, 14:46
I'm no expert on watches of that era, but a couple of observations:

Note how white the hands and face markings are compared to the condition of the case. I find it unusual that a watch of that age where the guts are exposed to the atmosphere would have such vibrantly white markings.

There is no serial number on the movement, which I find to be unusual for a CYMA.

This is a good example of a 1940's CYMA movement:

http://img.timezone.com/img/articles/extras631678805936437123/pwqa4.jpg

Hartley
01-16-2011, 21:38
Cszakolczai,

Bad Tolz is the name of the town that Flint Kaserne (former home to the 10th) is located in/near. I am quite sure the US Army had nothing to do with naming it..:)

If I remember correctly, the Baths (geothermal hot-water) that the "Bad" refers to have been a tourist attraction there for many centuries.

Hartley

cszakolczai
01-17-2011, 00:04
Cszakolczai,

Bad Tolz is the name of the town that Flint Kaserne (former home to the 10th) is located in/near. I am quite sure the US Army had nothing to do with naming it..:)

If I remember correctly, the Baths (geothermal hot-water) that the "Bad" refers to have been a tourist attraction there for many centuries.

Hartley

Thanks for the info sir. I was definitely looking at the name in completely the wrong context. I just automatically assumed it was a US given name or rename I should say. I would think that anything Nazi/SS was automatically destroyed including names like the statues were, but again I was mistaken. I learned something new. The sad part is all the current and former 10th group guys I know have mentioned Tolz and I never asked about the name. I'll keep reading, thanks again sir.

alfromcolorado
01-17-2011, 17:47
The Americans did change the name. We called it Flint Kaserne. The Germans called it Junkerschule Toelz.

There was another Junkerschule up north also.


Thanks for the info sir. I was definitely looking at the name in completely the wrong context. I just automatically assumed it was a US given name or rename I should say. I would think that anything Nazi/SS was automatically destroyed including names like the statues were, but again I was mistaken. I learned something new. The sad part is all the current and former 10th group guys I know have mentioned Tolz and I never asked about the name. I'll keep reading, thanks again sir.

cszakolczai
01-18-2011, 00:17
The Americans did change the name. We called it Flint Kaserne. The Germans called it Junkerschule Toelz.

There was another Junkerschule up north also.

Thanks for the info. Did a search for Flint Kaserne and came back with a hit from a gentleman who served between 1986-1989.


http://messageboards.aol.com/aol/en_us/articles.php?boardId=458505&articleId=2004222&func=5&channel=News

Has a lot of good info and history for anyone else interested about Tolz.

Thank you again for the info.

Richard
01-18-2011, 09:51
The W-SS had two Junkerschule - Bad Tölz and Braunschweig.

Junker was an old Prussian term - 'young lord' - as the title was applied to the ruling class of landed and titled gentry which ruled the Prussian state. The term was adopted by the SS as a psychological reference to its Officer Candidates as the elite new 'young lords' inheriting National Socialist Germany.

Their collar insignia had a T or a B behind the SS runes to indicate which school they were assigned.

Once WW2 began, the Officer Candidates were primarily combat veterans from the ranks, usually in the rank of corporal (Rottenfuhrer) or junior sergeant (Scharfuhrer or Oberscharfuhrer).

The kaserne was named in honor of COL Harry A. "Paddy" Flint - an old cavalry Officer and the 39th Combat Team Commander...and a favorite of 3rd Army Commander, GEN Patton. The kaserne at Bad Tölz was designated as the Headquarters for Third US Army in May 1945. On 23 May 1945, Third US Army Headquarters (Fwd) moved from Regensburg, where it had been located on VE-Day, to the kaserne. The new headquarters area consisted of approximately 40 acres that formerly had been occupied by a German "Junkerschule."

Third Army headquarters was located at Bad Tölz until April 1946, when it moved to Heidelberg.

During Third Army's stay in Bad Tölz it was assigned the general mission of occupying the German state of Bavaria.

Flint Kaserne was the site of Headquarters, 1st (Inf) Division, from September 1946 until January 1951.

The kaserne was occupied by Headquarters, Special Troops, and 3rd Bn, 169th Inf Regt, of the 43rd Division, from October 1951 until the summer of 1952 when the regiment moved to Nurnberg.

The 10th SFG moved to Bad Tölz/Lenggries on 10 Nov 1953.

My three years at Bad Tölz were some of the best of my SF career.

Richard :munchin

greenberetTFS
01-18-2011, 16:22
My three years at Bad Tölz were some of the best of my SF career.

As were mine..........;)

Big Teddy :munchin

cszakolczai
01-18-2011, 18:46
Ok, this may be slightly off topic but I dont think its right to start a new thread. When 10th was split between Bragg and Germany why did 10th eventually move out to Colorado from Bragg? Was it due to the mountainous terrain which could resemble the terrain found in Germany?

Dusty
01-18-2011, 18:52
Ok, this may be slightly off topic but I dont think its right to start a new thread. When 10th was split between Bragg and Germany why did 10th eventually move out to Colorado from Bragg? Was it due to the mountainous terrain which could resemble the terrain found in Germany?

I...I..I don't quite know how to answer that.

cszakolczai
01-18-2011, 19:32
I...I..I don't quite know how to answer that.

Was it a dumb question? Sorry if it was. Just wondering and curious as to how some of the groups made it to their current homes.

Richard
01-18-2011, 19:40
I...I..I don't quite know how to answer that.

I will. ;)

When 10th was split between Bragg and Germany why did 10th eventually move out to Colorado from Bragg? Was it due to the mountainous terrain which could resemble the terrain found in Germany?

Pay attention - I'm only saying this once.

1952: 10th formed in NC.

1953: 1/2 of 10th moved to FRG from NC and 1/2 remained in NC to form the 77th.

1968: HQs and 2/3 of 10th moved from FRG to MA with 1/3 remaining in FRG.

1994-1995: HQs and 2/3 of 10th in MA (not NC) moved to CO (primarily due to BRAC) with 1/3 remaining in FRG.

Richard

cszakolczai
01-18-2011, 21:27
I will. ;)



Pay attention - I'm only saying this once.
1952: 10th formed in NC.

1953: 1/2 of 10th moved to FRG from NC and 1/2 remained in NC to form the 77th.

1968: HQs and 2/3 of 10th moved from FRG to MA with 1/3 remaining in FRG.

1994-1995: HQs and 2/3 of 10th in MA (not NC) moved to CO (primarily due to BRAC) with 1/3 remaining in FRG.

Richard

I really appreciate the response sir. That clears up a lot and the timeline is definitely a lot easier to understand. Now I am going to research the trojan horse emblem a little bit more. Thanks again

mike-munich
01-19-2011, 03:37
I can't think of a single town that was renamed after WW2... Only the ones that are now in Poland, Czech Republic, Alsace-Lorraine and used to be German Reich until 1945.

In my opinion 1/10 should have never left TÖL for BB. But that's just my .02 cents...:(

MVP
01-19-2011, 14:55
Mike,

Just had to stir the pot again didn't you!

MVP

MVP
01-19-2011, 14:59
The chance that this item is the real deal is so small that you might as well throw your money away.

The collector that sent me the link and I were at Tolz together and I can vouch for his knowledge. He is highly confident the watch is a real JS Tolz item.

MVP

mike-munich
01-20-2011, 00:52
Mike,

Just had to stir the pot again didn't you!

MVP

MVP,

sorry I had to. Reading this post brought back feelings from way back when. Tölz is not the same place without 1/10...:(

V/R

Mike

MVP
01-20-2011, 08:18
I too miss Tolz as it was. But for the Bn I believe the big loss was proximity to good training areas. I heard all the new guys complain about the move despite they're never having served there. They cited the tourist aspects but nothing IRT the Bn or training. I just learned to ignor the complaints since their view was primarily driven by a weekend spent in Tolz.

There are actually some advantages to bieing in Stuttgart to include the ability to quickly get to other countries in Europe for a weekend. From Tolz there were less options. I do prefer the Barbarian culture more than Schwab though! What kind of moron would refer to a brotchen as a "weck"?

MVP

mike-munich
01-20-2011, 09:02
Roger that. "Weck" disgusts me too, after all it's a "Semmel" to me. :D

You're also refering to the Brauneck, do ya? Heck, I remember skiiing with the guys there. Draxlhang was nice, going to the Jägerwirt in Gaissach after skiing was even better. BB doesn't even have a real DZ...

Austria is real close, I don't care about Switzerland and France too much that are closer to Stuttgart than to Tölz/Upper Bavaria.

I better stop, I feel my eyes getting waterey... Damn cold.

Mike

mojaveman
01-20-2011, 10:22
There are actually some advantages to being in Stuttgart...MVP

With six installations including one that had a major PX and shopping center, Stuttgart was pretty comfortable. The 7th General Hospital in Bad Canstatt was nice in that it saved one a long trip to Landstuhl for any serious issues. The 20,000+ US personnel that were staioned in the area brang plenty of American culture with them. The summertime VW races at the dirt track on Panzer Kaserne in the early '80s were commedy.

Had all kinds of fun in Stuttgart... :D

Richard
01-20-2011, 10:45
We always viewed Stuttgart as being way too close to far too many flagpoles and echalons above reality HQs...and the bier wasn't as good with all those snooty BW wein sippers. ;)

Richard :munchin

MVP
01-20-2011, 12:08
I always found Bn staff and ARSOFE to be bigger problems than the EUCOM folks. We used to do tm commo exercises that would last all week on the Brauneck to get out of Dodge and away from the "Forces of Evil".

BTW: I found I could get all the good Barbarian bier from a getrankemarkt in Boblingen. My favorite being Andechser Doppel Bock Dunkle.

MVP

mojaveman
01-20-2011, 12:21
...and the bier wasn't as good with all those snooty BW wein sippers.

Interesting observation Richard.

Excluding major rivers there aren't as many water sources in the rural Swabian Jura as in other parts of Germany. That is one reason that the Schwabs became 'snooty' or 'harsh' and traditional wine drinkers when water wasn't always available.

Like Deutshland...

mike-munich
01-21-2011, 00:38
Upper Bavaria is just to cold to grow wine... The Romans tried that some 2000 years ago and only succeeded in Swabia, Rhineland-Palatinate and some parts of Franconia.

Anyway, I was asked by a QP friend by PM to stop my whining about the closure of Flint Kaserne.:boohoo

Oh, and I have no hard feelings towards BB. I was born there when my dad was in the service in the 60's.

ddoering
01-21-2011, 10:09
The collector that sent me the link and I were at Tolz together and I can vouch for his knowledge. He is highly confident the watch is a real JS Tolz item.

MVP

Every collector has to make his own mind up in the end. There has been more TR and SS stuff made up since the end of the war than was ever produced prior to VE day.

Bennett
01-21-2011, 15:32
Franconia (Franken) upper, middle and lower is part of the free state of Bavaria (Freistaat Bayern) and make some of the best wine in Europe.

Richard
01-21-2011, 16:09
Franconia (Franken) upper, middle and lower is part of the free state of Bavaria (Freistaat Bayern) and make some of the best wine in Europe.

The best wines in Europe are imported from Northern California. ;)

Richard :munchin

MVP
01-24-2011, 06:47
Best Wein/best Prices: http://www.edel-brauch.de/weinshop.php

Just about 1 hr 15 minutes N-NW from Stuttgart. Beautiful drive, just watch out for the traffic kameras in Karlsruhe...

MVP

mike-munich
01-24-2011, 07:05
The best wines in Europe are imported from Northern California
I will bring you a bottle in october that will make you change your mind...;)

MVP, I owe you a bottle anyway, PM me what you like and I get it on the way. I picked up my CTD shipment in Graf yesterday.:cool:

MVP
01-24-2011, 07:13
Any 13%+ red without anti-freeze. lol

Glad it arrived

MVP

mike-munich
01-24-2011, 07:20
The anti-freeze stuff is an Austrian specialty.... :D lol.
I'll get something on the way.

Yep, everything arrived safely. Thanks again.

MVP
01-24-2011, 07:50
MM,

I don't think the Austrians have a corner on the market, seems like the Italians have been known to use it as well. I recall Rudi in H. Forst getting some Italian red for about a Euro per litre, didn't try any myself. Far as I know Rudi is not blind yet...

mike-munich
01-24-2011, 08:05
MVP, at least not with the red stuff. I do have some serious Chardonnays from Krems, but vino rosso I prefer Italian.

I'll put something together for you and stick it in the mail.

Rudi might get blind from the Bavarian mountain schnaps, but not from good vino de tavola. :D

MVP
01-31-2011, 07:11
Mike,

The wine arrived Friday just in time for a dinner with guests. It was very good, ThXXXX!

MVP

mike-munich
01-31-2011, 07:32
MVP,

I'm glad UPS didn't break/drink it. :D
Just a little something to say "thanks" for all you do.

Stay safe,

Mike