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View Full Version : A question about 2nd/3rd line survivability


dainbrain
01-10-2011, 19:45
I had a question regarding kit that has been giving me some problems. I have searched this forum for several days and have been unable to find a definitive answer that my feeble mind can understand. I'm hoping to get some sage advice on the matter from professionals.

I am coming from a civilian hobbyist standpoint.

I have been using ALICE gear for some time now. I run a typical enhanced LBV with a pistol belt, some SAW pouches, couple canteen pouces, butt pack & a Large ALICE ruck.

I have been trying to get some updated MOLLE gear but have been finding it difficult to come up with something that works.

The problem I am finding is that I can't seem to carry enough water/survival kit in my 2nd line. I can't wear a camelback under my ruck so I have to tuck it into my ruck when it's on. If I have to drop my ruck for whatever reason, I feel I have far less ability to survive for several days than I did with my ALICE LBV.

I am seeing all these 'E&E' bags and such that can be detached from your main pack, but to me that doesn't address the possibility that you may have to drop your ruck and not have time to detach an extra pack. With the enhanced LBV, my 2nd line *was* my E&E bag...

I guess what I'm looking for is a good LBV/Ruck combo that is new & fancy but can still allow the modular survivability that ALICE setups have.

I thought that PS.com would be the best place to ask this, I figured that I can't be the only one with this problem.

cmts58
01-10-2011, 20:42
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Without knowing what you're using it for and what you have to carry, all I can say is maybe try a Fighting Load Carrier, or FLC. Molle mesh vest with no armor capability. You can get rucks from any number of manufacturers, however they still use the ALICE frame. If you just want a custom ruck, Tactical Tailor offers several modifications to your existing pack.

ZonieDiver
01-11-2011, 01:10
AND if you are 'playing at war,' it doesn't really n
matter much WHAT you use, IMHO!

JJ_BPK
01-11-2011, 04:54
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?74720-The-Newbies-Save-your-money-thread

I have found MP.net to be eminently rewarding when researching this topic...



:munchin

Dusty
01-11-2011, 05:18
The problem I am finding is that I can't seem to carry enough water/survival kit in my 2nd line. I guess what I'm looking for is a good LBV/Ruck combo that is new & fancy but can still allow the modular survivability that ALICE setups have.

If they don't make one, design one yourself.

Pete
01-11-2011, 06:06
How much does water weigh? About 2.2 lbs per qt.

Why are you dropping your ruck? To run faster.

Put those two together and the next question is - "Why try and run with something you don't need right now?"

Unless you are in a dry desert type area you can find more water after you shook off whatever was chasing you.

The Reaper
01-11-2011, 10:09
ANd if you are 'playing at war,' it doesn't really n
matter much WHAT you use, IMHO!

I agree.

TR

dainbrain
01-11-2011, 11:54
Thanks for the feedback Sirs, much appreciated. I think I'll stick with the 'ain't broke dont fix it' as suggested.

Someone told me once that in times of stress you fall back on your training. This makes me want to train as much as I can for as many situation I can. It's tough trying to be prepared and stay 'in shape' as a civilian, that's why I seek advice from those better men than me.

As for the equipment, I am carrying the things I feel I need to survive in a real-world situation. I like the outdoors, land navigation, hunting, etc. and hope to be more prepared if I get myself lost. Here is what I carry (first line not shown):

MIDDLE LAYER (Second Line):
(Load Bearing Equipment and Web Belt)

RADIO
WEAPONS CLEANING KIT
COMPASS (That you can read at night)
KNIFE
FIRST AID PACK
PONCHO (If not in ruck)
MATCHES (Waterproof)
SURVIVAL POUCH
CANTEENS (x2) or CAMELBAK
RATIONS
550 CORD (100ft)
STROBE Light
CHEM Lights
FLASHLIGHT x2 w/red lens (With extra batteries)
EXTRA SOCKS (2 pair minimum)


OUTER LAYER (Third Line):
(Rucksack -- Least Essential Items)

RAIN/WIND JACKET (Green,Black,Brown or Camo)
E-TOOL (Small shovel)
PONCHO LINER OR SLEEPING BAG
GROUND PAD
CAMELBAK
550 CORD (100 feet)
EXTRA CLOTHING (Socks, BDU's, T-shirt)
HOOCH (Half tent shelter)


Plus whatever trip-specific stuff, anything from a bunch of ropes/climbing equipment to hunting rifle & ammunition. And yes, sometimes an airsoft weapon. I use them as a training aid.

I could see a situation where I might have to drop my main pack in a non-combative scenario... perhaps I make a mistake on a mountain and have to cut it loose, maybe I get a little too close to some boar, or another animal and piss it off?

I'm just trying to train and train right. I appreciate any advice I get.

Pete
01-11-2011, 12:27
MIDDLE LAYER (Second Line):
(Load Bearing Equipment and Web Belt)

RADIO
WEAPONS CLEANING KIT
COMPASS (That you can read at night)
KNIFE
FIRST AID PACK
PONCHO (If not in ruck)
MATCHES (Waterproof)
SURVIVAL POUCH
CANTEENS (x2) or CAMELBAK
RATIONS
550 CORD (100ft)
STROBE Light
CHEM Lights
FLASHLIGHT x2 w/red lens (With extra batteries)
EXTRA SOCKS (2 pair minimum).......

Take just the listed equipment above, pick a weekend (moderate weather time period - early spring to late fall - I'm being nice to you) a month out and go to a primitive trail system or park that allows you to hike a trail, camp out and build a small fire.

Then just do it - regardless of the weather - and don't add any gear because of the weather.

I would suggest dropping the poncho in favor of a space/camp blanket - the ones with grommets and a shiny side. Buid a fire against a large rock with the blanket as a lean-to shelter on the other side and you'll sleep fairly well. With a flop hat it can be drapped over your body and tied under your chin with two small pieces of 550 cord. The flop hat will drip the water away from your neck area.

And who are you going to talk to with all those lights? If you have a radio you don't need all the lights - tell 'um what you have. If you ain't got comms having all those lights mean nothing. If you have comms you can get by with a head mounted white/red LED light system (them things are small) with extra batteries and a candle (same size as a chem light - but many more uses).

Think you can get by on just one pair of extra socks?

The month out date means you can't fudge your pick based on the weather - you go whatever the weather is that weekend - and you don't repack based on the weather. Pack your gear, set it in the truck, pick your date and then go.

PS - you would be amazed at how small a large lawn/leaf plastic bag is before you unfold it - and all the things you can make out of it in the woods.

PPS - All you guys reading this coming up with your own lists - do the same thing. Take the gear out and work it. See if it does what you think it will.

sinjefe
01-11-2011, 12:57
I had a question regarding kit that has been giving me some problems. I have searched this forum for several days and have been unable to find a definitive answer that my feeble mind can understand. I'm hoping to get some sage advice on the matter from professionals.

I am coming from a civilian hobbyist standpoint.

I have been using ALICE gear for some time now. I run a typical enhanced LBV with a pistol belt, some SAW pouches, couple canteen pouces, butt pack & a Large ALICE ruck.

I have been trying to get some updated MOLLE gear but have been finding it difficult to come up with something that works.

The problem I am finding is that I can't seem to carry enough water/survival kit in my 2nd line. I can't wear a camelback under my ruck so I have to tuck it into my ruck when it's on. If I have to drop my ruck for whatever reason, I feel I have far less ability to survive for several days than I did with my ALICE LBV.

I am seeing all these 'E&E' bags and such that can be detached from your main pack, but to me that doesn't address the possibility that you may have to drop your ruck and not have time to detach an extra pack. With the enhanced LBV, my 2nd line *was* my E&E bag...

I guess what I'm looking for is a good LBV/Ruck combo that is new & fancy but can still allow the modular survivability that ALICE setups have.

I thought that PS.com would be the best place to ask this, I figured that I can't be the only one with this problem.


Dude, you're a dork :)

dainbrain
01-11-2011, 13:13
Take just the listed equipment above, pick a weekend (moderate weather time period - early spring to late fall - I'm being nice to you) a month out and go to a primitive trail system or park that allows you to hike a trail, camp out and build a small fire.

Thank you!

I will take your advice and put my gear to work. I have done some long (for me, 'long' is only about a week hunting trip not too far from civilization) trips with just my gear and been very comfortable, I always took all my gear but never forced myself to see how it would work with the minimal amount.

As for the original topic, I will stick with what works for me as suggested.

Thanks all for the advice. It's very very appreciated.

sinjefe, yes, I'm a huge dork.

Pete
01-11-2011, 13:29
.......
As for the original topic, I will stick with what works for me as suggested.

Thanks all for the advice. It's very very appreciated.

sinjefe, yes, I'm a huge dork.

It is bad weather and hard times that make you work and think - and bring the memories.

Lots of people talk of what they would like to do - and make little lists of things that sound cool. It ain't shit until you take it out and work it.

So work it - and remember to bulk and weight out your weapon and ammo when you're loading up if your going to a place that does not allow weapons and ammo. Weapons and ammo weigh a lot and if you drop the bulk and weight you can sneak in a bunch of Twinkies - no fair - thats cheating .

Report back after the trip with a picture of your primitive camp site.

And remember Dorks can grow out of it - Idiots are stuck on stupid.

sinjefe
01-11-2011, 13:41
And remember Dorks can grow out of it - Idiots are stuck on stupid.

Hmmm, if I didn't know any better, I'd say someone took that personally.

Pete
01-11-2011, 13:46
Hmmm, if I didn't know any better, I'd say someone took that personally.

I said that they "CAN" :D grow out of it. A large % don't grab the chance to change and just shuffle through life and into old age as Dorks. So that could mean an old Dork is an Idiot who never took that chance.

sinjefe
01-11-2011, 13:58
I like to send anecdotes around work. Do I have reprint rights?;)

plato
01-11-2011, 15:18
So work it - and remember to bulk and weight out your weapon and ammo when you're loading up if your going to a place that does not allow weapons and ammo. Weapons and ammo weigh a lot and if you drop the bulk and weight you can sneak in a bunch of Twinkies - no fair - thats cheating .



Although now soldiers can *talk* about the twinkies in their fanny-packs. :o

cmts58
01-11-2011, 15:24
Hey now, Twinkies are a part of the Warfighter's balanced diet, especially deep fried.:o

JimP
01-11-2011, 16:08
Dude - WAY too much stuff. A Large trashbag (you can stuff it with leaves/needles/grass for insulation when sleeping); a water purifier and cup; a means to make fire; and some signalling device and you'll be fine.

Learn how to make debris shelters. Pete had great advice - make a list and then go "live it". After a couple days of suck-fest, you'll be surprised at what was surplus and what was essential. Continue to refine your kit - from what you wear (pockets; stowability); signalling; to what you'll carry and what you need to move and survive.

From the pro's I've seen, they could pull enough stuff out of their pockets to "get by". Attached to them is another layer for longer duration/better comfort/mission-essential items. Carried in bags/rucks is more "stuff" not immediately needed/necessary.

Be surprised at how little you "need" to survive and what - particularly as we get older - we 'want" when in the woods.

Dusty
01-11-2011, 16:13
When I was on a Team, all they issued us for a 6 month deployment was a pilot knife, a little bottle of halazone and one meellion rounds of ammo. When did they change that?:confused::eek:

Pete
01-11-2011, 17:08
When I was on a Team, all they issued us for a 6 month deployment was a pilot knife, a little bottle of halazone and one meellion rounds of ammo. When did they change that?:confused::eek:

After the last hard class.......

Peregrino
01-11-2011, 18:28
dainbrain - Just one small hint: If you want to "play soldier" or prepare for TEOTWAWKI, do it where/when you're not going to upset the locals. If you go wandering around in the woods with the crap you've got listed - somebody will call the local sheriff. Save the airsoft getup for weekends with your buddies where you're not likely to encounter granola eaters. Witness Arizona - fringe lunatics are going to be getting a lot of scrutiny - and people wandering around in the woods in a militia getup qualify as fringe lunatics. Learn wilderness skills the traditional way, with unremarkable civilian equipment, preferably with unremarkable friends to enhance the learning experience. My .02, YMMV.

monsterhunter
01-11-2011, 19:14
dainbrain - Just one small hint: If you want to "play soldier" or prepare for TEOTWAWKI, do it where/when you're not going to upset the locals. If you go wandering around in the woods with the crap you've got listed - somebody will call the local sheriff. Save the airsoft getup for weekends with your buddies where you're not likely to encounter granola eaters. Witness Arizona - fringe lunatics are going to be getting a lot of scrutiny - and people wandering around in the woods in a militia getup qualify as fringe lunatics. Learn wilderness skills the traditional way, with unremarkable civilian equipment, preferably with unremarkable friends to enhance the learning experience. My .02, YMMV.

I think the above advice is crap! Should the zombies come to life the weekend of your trip, and you followed Peregrino's advce, you are screwed. Use the local sheriff to work on your E&E skills.

After all - the sheriff needs practice too!:D Peregrino

cmts58
01-11-2011, 21:47
Or you could sign up for Mantracker...

wet dog
01-11-2011, 21:58
I always liked the name "brain", it reminds me of Harry Dean Stanton as Brain in the movie Escapre from New York.

In your intro, you mentioned limited military experience due to heat exhaustion in OSUT. What is the prognosis today?

You are new to PS.com and we welcome questions, but use your "search fu" skills. There are many threads that cover basic loads, equipment and what works vs. not work conclusions.

Are you training for something specific?

Brush Okie
01-12-2011, 03:42
What ever you put in your pack don't forget our most important piece of gear, you brain.

dainbrain
01-12-2011, 13:39
I always liked the name "brain", it reminds me of Harry Dean Stanton as Brain in the movie Escapre from New York.

I got that name for being a bit of a nerdy computer guy (it is what it is, I'm sure somebody here plays World of Warcraft).

In your intro, you mentioned limited military experience due to heat exhaustion in OSUT. What is the prognosis today?

I don't recall saying heat exhaustion was the cause, but it was related to that. I passed out and sustained a serious head injury which resulted in a couple seizures. It's a bit of longer story than that, which I will freely and truthfully elaborate on if anyone wants to know.

Prognosis today is perfect health. Tried to get back in once, was denied. Years later was informed that 'there's a waiver for everything'. Went seeking guidance from several retired friends much older and than myself who advised me to remain a civilian, take care of my family, try to be a better person, and thank the Lord everyday for my freedoms that were gained by the blood of heroes. I still wrestle with it every single day, it weighs on me.

You are new to PS.com and we welcome questions, but use your "search fu" skills. There are many threads that cover basic loads, equipment and what works vs. not work conclusions.

Thank you for the training. My search-fu has proven to be weak I suppose. That and due to my ignorance on certain subjects, I guess I wasn't even sure what I was really looking for. I feel I was guided a little back to the straight and narrow from the advice above.

Are you training for something specific?

I guess I try to train for unknown unknowns. I'm not a zombie hunter or a nazi slayer or any of that bullshit. I'm a young guy, fairly new to the fatherhood club. I'm a conservative and a Christian (but not a fanatic). I obey the law, pay taxes, vote, and try to fulfill any of my other obligations as a citizen the best way I know how. I feel obligated to be able to protect my family, my friends, and my country if I'm ever needed to do so, because I believe that we should not rely solely on our government to secure our quality of life.

So I guess I try to train for any situation I can think of, and I try to keep my brain sharp during times of stress.

Sorry for the mouth diarrhea. Sincere thanks.

Dozer523
01-12-2011, 13:52
I guess I try to train for unknown unknowns. I'm not a zombie hunter or a nazi slayer or any of that bullshit. Bullshit is it? Well, try to remember that when your brains are being eaten or they skin you of your tatoos to make a lampshade. Trained for everything? I think not.
Sorry for the mouth diarrhea. Sincere thanks. No apologies necessary. Quite the contrary, thank you,. We so seldom get this opportunity.

(really, 12-21-12 is a reality. be ready)

uplink5
01-12-2011, 15:23
Bullshit is it? Well, try to remember that when your brains are being eaten or they skin you of your tatoos to make a lampshade. Trained for everything? I think not.
No apologies necessary. Quite the contrary, thank you,. We so seldom get this opportunity.

(really, 12-21-12 is a reality. be ready)

TOUCHE'

:p