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ReconDad
01-03-2011, 08:30
Hello Gentlemen,

Just finished my "Intro Post" a few minutes ago. My military background is four (4) years active-duty Air Force from 1978-1982.

My oldest son is currently an active-duty Recon Marine. He scores a "300" on the Marine Corps PFT (23 pull-ups, 110 crunches and a 17:43 3-mile run). He was also the 2nd-fastest swimmer in his BRC (Recon) class. He loves Recon, the nature of the work and the guys he works with. He is also very intelligent (scored a 91 AFQT on the ASVAB and a GT score of 130).

The reason for my post is this:

Many of the Recon Marines my son works with are saying they are "going Army SF when their 4-year enlistment is completed in the Corps". They are also saying, "we're tired of getting crappy, 2nd-rate equipment to use, plus garrison life in the Corps sucks when we're not in the field or deployed....."

My question is: Do you currently-serving (or previously serving) Quiet Professional's have a lot of former Recon Marines (or Marines in general) serving in your ODA's?

I read a post in another forum from the Army SF Monitor who said the following"

"The primary reason the Army continues to accept prior-service members into the 18-X program is this: Recon Marines. Historical records indicate that former Recon Marines have a 96% success-rate making it thru Selection and the "Q" Course".

Any feedback, suggestions or recommendations you gentlemen may have for my son (if he should ever show an interest in SF), would be most appreciated!!

Thank all of you Quiet Professional's for your service, past and present! :)

JJ_BPK
01-03-2011, 08:53
Hello Gentlemen,

My question is: Do you currently-serving (or previously serving) Quiet Professional's have a lot of former Recon Marines (or Marines in general) serving in your ODA's?



Hi Dad,,

You will get some USMC input shortly.

Many have been bitten by the switch-n-flipped to the Army side,, for many reasons.

In the meantime, I would suggest that you spend some quality time with the search button. I found 135 threads that have USMC in the title and over 500 with Marine in the title.

Additionally, there is a lot to read the following sections:


Special Force's 1st & 2nd sections
Pipeline's 1st & 2nd sections



Welcome to PS.com
Thank you and your son for serving..
Semper Fi

blue02hd
01-03-2011, 09:03
Sir, while I cannot really add much to this conversation, I would have to question the statistic of the 96% Marine Recon success rate. Now I just leaned over and yelled at my TMSGT who just so happens to be an ex-marine who served within the 2nd Forced Recon back in 83 to 85. (small world huh?) The best damn Team SGT I could have asked for, and yes I allow him to finish my sentences when he is fired up at third parties. I try very hard not to get on his bad side, anyhow,,,,

He immediately called bullshit and stated the same thing that I was thinking. For him, Team Week and Peers are harsh on the Marines. I need to add here that he has already served his time in SWC as an instructor, so he has first hand knowledge to share. While the Selection Process and Q-Course physically might not be an issue, (just like it would not be an issue for Ranger Battalion NCO's, SEALS, or many dedicated Law Enforcement agents) the discriminator would be the mission change and mind set.

Speaking from my own experience as a former long tabbed NCO turned Occifer, the success rate during the period I was in the Q for the second time was only 40% for those of us already wearing Long Tabs. I cannot see a better prepared group of students to successfully navigate the Q than those who have already successfully completed it before, and yet over half of my Tabbed peers failed to graduate for a variety of reasons. Some reasons were due to family, integrity problems, legal issues involving alcohol and a midget, some health issues, and of course the ever present and always loved peer evaluations. No demographic is immune to these show stoppers.

Not sure if this helps, but I hope atleast you understand that there is NO way that statistics such as 96% would realistically exist ( It's all about the math) so that number is already suspect. I doubt 96% even show up to in process, but I'll leave that to other experts here who work closer to phase of training who I know are reading here as well.

ReconDad
01-03-2011, 09:26
blue02HD,

You may very well be correct about the 96% being too high (seemed very high to me, also).....I'm just repeating what the "SF Monitor" stated in his assessment-post. Wish I could recall what the website was where I saw that statement......

You make a great point about mission-change and mind-set being the "discriminator". Dealing with the locals, training indigenous populations, learning a foreign language......all are VERY different aspects than the reconnaissance and (sometimes) direct-action missions of USMC Recon units.

RD

Blueboy
01-03-2011, 09:49
blue02HD,

You may very well be correct about the 96% being too high (seemed very high to me, also).....I'm just repeating what the "SF Monitor" stated in his assessment-post. Wish I could recall what the website was where I saw that statement......

You make a great point about mission-change and mind-set being the "discriminator". Dealing with the locals, training indigenous populations, learning a foreign language......all are VERY different aspects than the reconnaissance and (sometimes) direct-action missions of USMC Recon units.

RD

Sir----Special Reconnaissance and Direct Action are in our mission profiles as well-----along with the ones that SF is best known for, FID and UW. What makes SF different is the ability to rapidly shift from one to the other----and the kind of man we look for in our assessment and selection program is one who is comfortable working in that complex operational environment----hence the 'Whole Man' approach.

dennisw
01-03-2011, 10:03
+

wet dog
01-03-2011, 10:25
I've had two Team Sergeants who were former Marines, one served Vietnam, 2nd Marine Division, the other late 70's early 80's Beirut, Lebanon. He himself was Lebanese born, US raised.

The 18C honor grad in our "Q" was an active duty Marine, E6.

He was one of 6 who attended the training and only Marine to finish.

(2) 18B students washed,
(2) 18E students washed,
the remaining 18C washed out, all due in part to "mind set", average age was 22, average rank was E4.

The graduating Marine was 26 with 8 years in service, had been exposed to SF, when 1st Grp taught CAS at Pendleton/Oceanside, CA.

Recondad -

If your son wants to move, I'd suggest having him ETS on schedule. Become a civilian, knock out college while enlisting in the NG SF, allowing him to morph a little, loose the starch, learn the adaptation of mission change.

My $0.02

ReconDad
01-03-2011, 11:07
Wet Dog,

Sounds like wise counsel......thank you for your comments!

RD

Dusty
01-03-2011, 11:19
If he really wants to be on an A team, nothing else will matter.

18C4V
01-03-2011, 12:01
Many of the Recon Marines my son works with are saying they are "going Army SF when their 4-year enlistment is completed in the Corps". They are also saying, "we're tired of getting crappy, 2nd-rate equipment to use, plus garrison life in the Corps sucks when we're not in the field or deployed....."

My question is: Do you currently-serving (or previously serving) Quiet Professional's have a lot of former Recon Marines (or Marines in general) serving in your ODA's?



I have three former Marines on my ODA. Two were former Scout Snipers and one was a former 8654 (Dual Cool) FR Marine from Oki. My former Recon Marine who is now my Senior 18C left the Marines and Recon for the same reason that you're son mentioned.

One of my fellow team sgt is a former Recon Marine, our old company SGM was a Recon Marine.

BLUF, lots of Marines cross over to Army SF, but you hardly ever hear of an SF Guy going to the Marines or to Marine Recon.

wet dog
01-03-2011, 12:27
I have three former Marines on my ODA. Two were former Scout Snipers and one was a former 8654 (Dual Cool) FR Marine from Oki. My former Recon Marine who is now my Senior 18C left the Marines and Recon for the same reason that you're son mentioned.

One of my fellow team sgt is a former Recon Marine, our old company SGM was a Recon Marine.

BLUF, lots of Marines cross over to Army SF, but you hardly ever hear of an SF Guy going to the Marines or to Marine Recon.

Cream rises to the top. If you catch it in time, you make paneer tikka masala. If not, you get salted butter, cottage cheese, yogurt and cat food.

ReconDad
01-03-2011, 12:57
I have three former Marines on my ODA. Two were former Scout Snipers and one was a former 8654 (Dual Cool) FR Marine from Oki. My former Recon Marine who is now my Senior 18C left the Marines and Recon for the same reason that you're son mentioned.

One of my fellow team sgt is a former Recon Marine, our old company SGM was a Recon Marine.

BLUF, lots of Marines cross over to Army SF, but you hardly ever hear of an SF Guy going to the Marines or to Marine Recon.


18C4V,

That's something I have also noticed after reading many Spec-Ops forums.....

I don't believe I've ever heard of an SF soldier, a Navy SEAL or an Air Force Pararescueman who left their service to become a Recon Marine....but I hear a TON of stories of Marines leaving the Corps for these other Spec-Ops units.

There must be a "Moral of the Story" in there somewhere! ;)

1stindoor
01-03-2011, 14:07
... must be a "Moral of the Story" in there somewhere! ;)

The "moral" if you can call it that would probably be spelled "m-o-r-a-l-e," and until recently a MARSOC unit didn't exist. Now that one does...the rest of the USMC are trying to figure out how to keep them "special" without losing "Marines."

greenberetTFS
02-08-2011, 12:21
ReconDad,

Read my signature regarding a SF mindset .............;)

Big Teddy

mojaveman
02-08-2011, 12:35
If I remember correctly we had four Recon Marines attend the Q course. One was dropped during the FDC portion of Phase II heavy weapons and the other three graduated. Of the three one of them later returned and made a career out of SF spending some time as an instructor at SOTIC. I remember that they were all highly motivated and didn't have any issues with the training.

kollkash
02-09-2011, 15:06
Here's .02c from a relatively recent SF Q'course grad and SF member--I agree with many of the sentiments above. I believe that the combination of Will and Character (positive personality traits) ultimately determines if one could or couldn't do SF. Some have more of one than the other, but if he has both, then he's "golden." It sounds like your son has the physical ability; now, it's just up to his mindset.

Do you currently-serving (or previously serving) Quiet Professional's have a lot of former Recon Marines (or Marines in general) serving in your ODA's?

In regards to the above, I personally didn't see "a lot" of Marines, whether Recon or not. Obviously, I served with a few and came across a few more. Conversely, I echo what others have said: I haven't personally heard of any SF warrior make a move to the Marines...

PRB
02-09-2011, 22:21
As the former SW Tng Gp CSM I will tell you that no prior service group/element has a statistical success rate of 96%...not even close...I served in that capacity from 95 thru 98 but had a SWC briefing in '09 that had abt the same stats as I experienced during my tenure....no element, Ranger, Marine etc exceeds 40 %...



Hello Gentlemen,

Just finished my "Intro Post" a few minutes ago. My military background is four (4) years active-duty Air Force from 1978-1982.

My oldest son is currently an active-duty Recon Marine. He scores a "300" on the Marine Corps PFT (23 pull-ups, 110 crunches and a 17:43 3-mile run). He was also the 2nd-fastest swimmer in his BRC (Recon) class. He loves Recon, the nature of the work and the guys he works with. He is also very intelligent (scored a 91 AFQT on the ASVAB and a GT score of 130).

The reason for my post is this:

Many of the Recon Marines my son works with are saying they are "going Army SF when their 4-year enlistment is completed in the Corps". They are also saying, "we're tired of getting crappy, 2nd-rate equipment to use, plus garrison life in the Corps sucks when we're not in the field or deployed....."

My question is: Do you currently-serving (or previously serving) Quiet Professional's have a lot of former Recon Marines (or Marines in general) serving in your ODA's?

I read a post in another forum from the Army SF Monitor who said the following"

"The primary reason the Army continues to accept prior-service members into the 18-X program is this: Recon Marines. Historical records indicate that former Recon Marines have a 96% success-rate making it thru Selection and the "Q" Course".

Any feedback, suggestions or recommendations you gentlemen may have for my son (if he should ever show an interest in SF), would be most appreciated!!

Thank all of you Quiet Professional's for your service, past and present! :)

The Reaper
02-10-2011, 08:29
As the former SW Tng Gp CSM I will tell you that no prior service group/element has a statistical success rate of 96%...not even close...I served in that capacity from 95 thru 98 but had a SWC briefing in '09 that had abt the same stats as I experienced during my tenure....no element, Ranger, Marine etc exceeds 40 %...

During my 4 years at SWCS, the only group I saw approach those numbers was an all 18X class that hit better than 85%.

No other course or service runs the long land nav program that we do, and many people just don't get it.

TR