View Full Version : Rise of Islam in France
SouthernDZ
01-01-2011, 04:35
Interesting, from CBN News in Paris. This four minute video is not likely to be seen in mainstream news.
http://downloads.cbn.com/cbnnewsplayer/cbnplayer.swf?aid=17933
greenberetTFS
01-01-2011, 06:47
Interesting, from CBN News in Paris. This four minute video is not likely to be seen in mainstream news.
http://downloads.cbn.com/cbnnewsplayer/cbnplayer.swf?aid=17933
Excellent video,when are we going to learn?............:rolleyes:
Big Teddy :munchin
Truckie117
01-01-2011, 07:31
When will we wake up!
It may be to late for Europe I don't know if they can push back the creeping in of their 12th century beliefs.
Surgicalcric
01-01-2011, 09:00
Interesting that the commentator/reporter also noted that praying in large crowds and blocking streets in doing so, though ignored by the French govt for Muslims, wouldn't be allowed for Christians...
So afraid to offend Islam, the rest of the world is, that we now cant see offending them is the least of our worries.
I found it interesting that the video showed many muslims from Africa (the new playground) and the muslim women walking along the streets without a male escort. Islam lite?
I wonder why "they" (http://http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101228/ap_on_re_eu/eu_france_investing_in_spies) are hiring?
France's spy service bulks up amid terror threats
By JAMEY KEATEN, Associated Press Jamey Keaten, Associated Press – Tue Dec 28, 8:33 am ET
PARIS – There's no French James Bond. But a new push may set the stage for one.
France's secretive international spy agency, the DGSE, is recruiting hundreds of people and getting a budget boost, despite frugal times, to better fend off threats like terrorism and nuclear proliferation. France's answer to the CIA is buffing its image as well, with its first-ever spokesman and a new website.
The move follows hostage-takings abroad, bomb scares at the Eiffel Tower and fallout from WikiLeaks' publication of secret U.S. diplomatic cables. France is also set to ban face-covering Islamic veils, which has roiled Muslim extremists around the world and drawn threats from Al-Qaida.
The DGSE changes have been long in coming, part of France's efforts to beef up its network of intelligence operatives as called for in a top-to-bottom security review completed in 2008.
(more)
One of the DGSE's main roles now is to help find and free French hostages abroad. Two French TV reporters are being held in Afghanistan, five nuclear company workers in Niger are believed to have been taken by al-Qaida's north Africa affiliate to neighboring Mali, and one of DGSE's own is being held in Somalia — after a fellow agent escaped last year.
aegisnavy
01-01-2011, 10:36
Keep on slow boiling that frog (no pun intended) Europe. I fear that the scenario for 2048 in the book mentioned in the report, will arrive a lot sooner in France and other countries.
WTH is going on in this world? Wake up sheeple! They want to destroy the very social structure that gives them the "freedom" to do this. They are not grateful and appreciative of the freedom granted to worship their conscience. Islam's stated purpose is to destroy the Judeo-Christian social and legal structure that took 2000 years of struggle to create. Islam at its core wants to tear it all down. "Progressive Liberals" will stand idly by and let it happen all in the name of tolerance. They will use our tolerance as a sword to run us through and laugh at our ignorance once we are too weak to do anything about it.
The Islamic French Republic
The Islamic Republic of Germany
The United Islamic Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland
The Islamic Kingdom of Spain
etc., etc., etc.
I fear that those are a lot closer than 2048. Kudos to the man who filmed this, and tries to bring it to the world's attention. Can you imagine someone's life being threatened for filming the St. Patty's Day parade in Boston? That's a very close analogy here.
Well this is the first thing to get my blood boiling in 2011. Has anyone read The mosque Our Lady of Paris: Year 2048
I'm not sure if it's PC that's prevents the French government from taking some kind of action. I believe they know any kind of action will escalate towards violence so fast that they can't get their minds around what they will be left with in the aftermath.
Maybe this next big anti-Islam rally in Paris will force their hand.
mojaveman
01-01-2011, 12:37
At this point it could be just a matter of time for some of the European countries because the seeds were actually planted decades ago.
When the Muslims attempt to start street prayer in East Germany I want to watch the video. :D
Has anyone read The mosque Our Lady of Paris: Year 2048
Everything is not as it seems. This (http://www.juliagorin.com/wordpress/?p=2436) appears to be nothing more than anti-Islamic propaganda.
Oldrotorhead
01-01-2011, 13:01
Most European countries could turn this around if they had the will. In the short term I think they are out gunned by the Muslims, and it would be ugly. My question is do we as a Nation have the will to push this back? We aren't out gunned yet.
The Reaper
01-01-2011, 16:40
How will Europe remove the Muslim problem?
TR
Green Light
01-01-2011, 18:37
How will Europe remove the Muslim problem?
TR
It won't. Period. They'll come to an understanding of the problem, but it will be too late. Also, with the Islamic birthrate at somewhere between 2.5 - 3 per adult woman and the European birthrate is as low as 1.3, they're simply going to overtake native Europeans. It takes a birthrate of 2.1 just to replace the population. Native Europeans are going to become extinct.
mojaveman
01-01-2011, 19:38
With no immigration and with current birthrates in most western European countries the rate that they are their populations would actually dissapear in something like 100 years. They have to allow immigration to their countries just to maintain their workforce.
They're cutting their own throats. :(
It won't. Period. They'll come to an understanding of the problem, but it will be too late. Also, with the Islamic birthrate at somewhere between 2.5 - 3 per adult woman and the European birthrate is as low as 1.3, they're simply going to overtake native Europeans. It takes a birthrate of 2.1 just to replace the population. Native Europeans are going to become extinct.
That's a key statement, right there; one soon to be applicable, as well, to our own burgeoning dilemma here, if the same invasion isn't halted.
I'm seeing promising signs that normally "sleepy" Americans (in the political and socio-economic sense) are waking up because of the reporting done on Islamic intrusion by other than the mainline journos regarding France and Europe in general.
Merkel's recent statement that "multiculturalism is a failure" (paraphrased) thankfully was an eye-opener even to the myriad ostriches in this Country who generally just want to be left alone about anything other than the rent and eggs right now.
The irony is that with the current Administration, it appeared we were being steered toward a system not unlike those of France, England and Germany-the same Countries who face the rock of Islam and the hard place of helplessness to stop the intrusion of the Muslims who bring with them a cruelly distorted way of life and the determination to convert others to their religion or kill them.
IMHO this is a powder keg for two reasons. The first is a lack of assimilation, if these Muslim kids are kept segregated from the public school system they will never become Frenchmen. The second is France is not a nation of immigrants, IMHO history and tradition in this part of the world contradict the prevalent delusion Europeans are more sophisticated, tolerant, and pacifistic than the New World. When you add the xenophobia that generally accompanies economic crisis, cynicism regarding the future doesn't seem as much of a stretch.
Everything is not as it seems. This (http://www.juliagorin.com/wordpress/?p=2436) appears to be nothing more than anti-Islamic propaganda.
Anti-Islamic propaganda? I'm curious how you arrived at this conclusion. I read the excerpt from the book on the link you provided, but it did not strike me as propaganda. It's important to note, I have zero knowledge of the Bosnia / Serbian situation so I may have missed something. What specifically lead you to the above opinion?
aegisnavy
01-02-2011, 15:46
...the intrusion of the Muslims who bring with them a cruelly distorted way of life and the determination to convert others to their religion or kill them.
Sad but true.
The best litmus test of the state of things: Draw a cartoon of Jesus Christ that is mildly offensive to Christians. Draw a cartoon of the Mohammed the Prophet that is offensive to Muslims. Publish them both to a worldwide audience. See which one gets your life threatened first.
Our freedom and way of life is offensive to them. They want to destroy it.
(Edit) - I need to clarify. When I say "they," I mean radical Islamists.
I enjoyed working alongside Muslims for many years. They came to the US for the freedom it offered. One to escape the radical Islamists who took over his country, and the other to provide a safer life for his family than the war ravaged A-stan of Soviet occupation era. They had several things in common. They wanted to be American. They wanted freedom. They wanted the same freedoms for those of other beliefs. They wanted to live by the law of the land. Unfortunately, because of these beliefs, their lives would be in danger in the lands of their birth.
DevilSide
01-02-2011, 16:02
Spain did something in 1478 that might be a useful lesson for today, ran into it when I was reading some history, called the Inquisition.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Inquisition
I think France should do it like this, become French, assimilate, or leave, minus all the crazy torture stuff of course. Sounds simple, I'm sure its more complicated, but just a thought. That video of the Muslims praying in the street is just a ridiculous double standard and should not be allowed to happen. Whats the French Gov. saying to its people?
The Reaper
01-02-2011, 18:42
I enjoyed working alongside Muslims for many years. They came to the US for the freedom it offered. One to escape the radical Islamists who took over his country, and the other to provide a safer life for his family than the war ravaged A-stan of Soviet occupation era. They had several things in common. They wanted to be American. They wanted freedom. They wanted the same freedoms for those of other beliefs. They wanted to live by the law of the land. Unfortunately, because of these beliefs, their lives would be in danger in the lands of their birth.
Then they should man up, pick up a gun, and change things back home, the same way we did here, twice.
TR
Anti-Islamic propaganda? I'm curious how you arrived at this conclusion. I read the excerpt from the book on the link you provided, but it did not strike me as propaganda. It's important to note, I have zero knowledge of the Bosnia / Serbian situation so I may have missed something. What specifically lead you to the above opinion?
Sorry Dennis; I should have clarified my statement.
The overall tones of that chapter (Slobodan) were seemingly all focused on negative aspects of the spread of Islam to the Balkans.
...the Albanians descended into Serbian lands like new Bayazits, like hyenas trailing the scent of blood, once again occupying the abandoned homes, once again reaping the crops sown in Serbian fields.(COMMENT: really?)
...did you even bother to thank the Serbs because Draza Mihailovic’s Chetniks began their attack on Hitler’s supporters long before you? (COMMENT: OSS and British Commandos actually sent "advisors" to work by, with, and through Mikhalovich's Chetniks.)
Oh, how carefully your “peacekeepers” watched to make sure that no Serb dared raise his head! They saw to that but what they didn’t see in 1997 was what was happening under their very noses. And when the KLA snake hatched in their shadow and began to ethnically cleanse Kosovo, not fictionally this time but for real, you were blind, more than blind. Your television channels ran footage of Kosovo Albanians covering the coffins of their fallen comrades with a red flag with a black eagle, the thunder of the honorary gun salutes, the wild peonies swaying over freshly dug graves. While away from the cameras your “heroes” slaughtered Christian families, murdered teachers and priests. And when Milosevic tried to stop it, the bombs flew at Serbia. (COMMENT: total BS and all one-sided. The Kosovo "war" was basically the West's attempt to right the wrong of Bosnia (e.g. the arms embargo, UNPROFOR's inability to protect, etc.).)
The original Russian is pretty slanted too but that's to be expected.
I'm not pro-Islam however, just imagine how things would have been different if the US intervened on Bosnia's behalf...like we did with Croatia...so they could mount a decent defense and allow for self-determination. What about Chechnya? Would we win over any Muslim allies if we supported the Chechen independence movement?
Undermanned and outgunned nations seeking freedom simply want anyone to come to their aid (which Nations supported the Colonies?). Bosnians, Kosovars, Albanians, and Chechens (Northern Caucasians in general) were previously very moderate. The majority drank, smoked, listened to music, etc.
I believe the Iranians and the Saudis were in Bosnia early on because "we" weren't. I think the same is true for Chechnya.
AQ has people who can infiltrate the US without raising suspicion. Imagine if we could do the same to them.
Back to the topic though. I believe that Muslims are in France because life sucks in their native lands (North and Sub-Saharan Africa, Middle East, etc) and France's left is allowing the Islamic takeover. IMO, a foreigner must assimilate or go back home...or they should be considered an invader.
I agree: Why do I have to push 1 for English?!?
RE: Post #18
YGBSM! :eek:
RE: Assimilation - now there's a rucksack full of wishful thinking and an ages olde issue influencing all sides of the problem.
Richard
Peregrino
01-02-2011, 20:23
RE: Post #18
YGBSM! :eek:
Richard
Thanks for beating me to the punch. The Inquisition has about as much to recommend it as Sharia does. Personally, I have serious issues with ANYONE who wants to influence me at sword's point.
Personally, I have serious issues with ANYONE who wants to influence me at sword's point.
Me, too...as well as with any other point that invokes the use of fire, hell, fear, my XXX is the true XXX, apostasy, eternal damnation, etc, et al, und so weiter...
However, that's MOO - and so it goes...
Richard :munchin
Surgicalcric
01-02-2011, 20:42
However, that's MOO
Ya dont say... :D
Then they should man up, pick up a gun, and change things back home, the same way we did here, twice.
TR
TR,
People who escaped from that place do not look upon military service as something to aspire to. They see it as a way for more conflict and as a result would much rather pursue professional careers here in the US where they can make money and live relatively peacefully. My sources are people that are my age that come from Iran, India, and Malaysia. Their parents would have a fucking heart attack if their children would go to a recruiters office. Granted there are exceptions, but you don't really see a mass push amongst those communities.
aegisnavy
01-02-2011, 21:18
YGBSM! :eek:
Richard
Agreed. Inquisition, round-em-up-and-send-em-back, etc., etc. is no answer, and just plain silly.
I don't know the answer to TR's original question. I just know that freedom of religion should does not include the allowance of "You must believe in my XXX, or you will go to hell. As a matter of fact, why don't I send you there right now with my sword..."
Then they should man up, pick up a gun, and change things back home, the same way we did here, twice.
Also, agreed. How do you influence that?
Peregrino
01-02-2011, 21:21
TR,
People who escaped from that place do not look upon military service as something to aspire to. They see it as a way for more conflict and as a result would much rather pursue professional careers here in the US where they can make money and live relatively peacefully. My sources are people that are my age that come from Iran, India, and Malaysia. Their parents would have a fucking heart attack if their children would go to a recruiters office. Granted there are exceptions, but you don't really see a mass push amongst those communities.
And my point is - if they're not willing to work to change their own communities in their home countries where do they get off thinking they have a right to force change on ours? (And why are the sheeple here so short-sighted as to let them?)
The Reaper
01-02-2011, 21:22
TR,
People who escaped from that place do not look upon military service as something to aspire to. They see it as a way for more conflict and as a result would much rather pursue professional careers here in the US where they can make money and live relatively peacefully. My sources are people that are my age that come from Iran, India, and Malaysia. Their parents would have a fucking heart attack if their children would go to a recruiters office. Granted there are exceptions, but you don't really see a mass push amongst those communities.
So fighting and dying for freedom is something they want, but do not care to pay a price for.
Yeah, that is just what we need coming to America....:rolleyes:
Where is compulsory service when you need it?
TR
I have to clarify something though. Their views are not extremist, they want to escape the conflict and they don't seek to change US culture. They don't hate US but they would not serve in the Armed Forces in any country. They want to make money and not get hurt. Their attitude is not exclusive though to immigrants coming in and it is very common across the US in general regardless of ethnic background.
The Reaper
01-02-2011, 21:35
I have to clarify something though. Their views are not extremist, they want to escape the conflict and they don't seek to change US culture. They don't hate US but they would not serve in the Armed Forces in any country. They want to make money.
Why don't they make money at home?
Why should we welcome them here, so that they can profit from the freedoms we have fought and died for?
Have you noticed how many second generation Islamic immigrants have gone back to fundamentalism and want to destroy this country?
TR
TR,
The students I've interacted never talked about fundamentalism, hell it never even was brought up in the conversation. They work hard and play hard ( drink beer and etc ). You are correct that some don't like this type of culture but that doesn't mean everyone coming in is going to advocating change through murdering people. The people coming already have an agenda as opposed to the people I've interacted. I mean lets face it, is everyone cut out for an Army lifestyle?
As far as making money at home, some actually do go home but most stay here because the pay is better. Again, your interaction may have been with individuals that are waaay different. I bet that the "refugees" in France didn't really care about becoming Frenchmen/women, but I bet they lacked education in understanding what the clerics were saying to them was actually bullshit. They gave them their naive trust to the religious figure to tell them how to be.
ProdigalSon
01-02-2011, 21:46
They want to make money and not get hurt.
They should've gone to Switzerland then.
TR,
People who escaped from that place do not look upon military service as something to aspire to. They see it as a way for more conflict and as a result would much rather pursue professional careers here in the US where they can make money and live relatively peacefully. My sources are people that are my age that come from Iran, India, and Malaysia. Their parents would have a fucking heart attack if their children would go to a recruiters office. Granted there are exceptions, but you don't really see a mass push amongst those communities.
Wiseman,
Maybe I am reading more into this than there is, but it appears you are 'OKAY' with ZIP the Dirt Herder making his way to this country, getting more benefits than a natural born citizen and then shirking their responsibility to serve....while we send our loved ones over to his country to clean up the shit hole he left because he has no balls to do it himself.
I mean I don't hear any anger in your tone.
RE: Post #33
YGBSM!
Richard
Paslode,
As far as I know, they don't have any additional benefits being given to them. They have more incentive to find jobs otherwise they are sent back home. The individuals mentioned in passing are all on student Visas and have a certain time limit to find a job after which they get a work Visa. Then they must work for a long time to get a green card and etc. There were individuals who were sent back home because they couldn't find a job. They are also at a disadvantage when they apply for jobs since most employers do not want to sponsor a work Visa. There are many Indian engineering grad student that come in and get electrical engineering master degrees. Most engineering companies won't hire them because of the lack of citizenship. One tried to work as a GS civilian in the Army but a got long letter saying he needed to be a citizen. They can't really go through any ROTC program since requirements for commissioning need one to be a citizen. If they try to go through the enlisted route they will again be limited and I think the program allowing for a green card in exchange for service is not there anymore.
For those individuals that think they are getting grants from the Federal Government, that is bullshit, most take out private loans or are sponsored by their families working hard back in India.
aegisnavy
01-02-2011, 22:00
A key problem:
Have you seen how many second generation Islamic immigrants have gone back to fundamentalism and want to destroy this country?
A key reason:
IMHO this is a powder keg for two reasons. The first is a lack of assimilation, if these Muslim kids are kept segregated from the public school system they will never become Frenchmen.
IMHO, a possible solution:
Where is compulsory service when you need it?
So essentially, before they enter the Armed Forces in general, they would need to at least have a green card. By the time that happens, they are employed and making money. What would be the motivation for them to leave their jobs and pursue either officer or enlisted opportunities? If you say that oh well we gave you an education, they will respond with well I studied hard to get in here and I took out loans and that I got no help from the federal or even state government since I was not eligible for those things in the 1st place.
DevilSide
01-02-2011, 22:41
Thanks for beating me to the punch. The Inquisition has about as much to recommend it as Sharia does. Personally, I have serious issues with ANYONE who wants to influence me at sword's point.
Misunderstanding there, I didn't mean it like that, forcing anyone by the sword and all. What I mean is, if they dont want to be French, they need to go someplace else. I didn't say burn them or make them catholic. I know its kind of a bad example, but Spain kicked out its unwanted groups that threatened power of the throne, today it wouldnt go quite that way.
And why is assimilation wishful thinking? America is proof its very possible.
Assimilation is not equal throughout the continental US. You have communities that are not that really that open. You can see women in burqas in West Philly while their husband is wearing shorts and chilling. Some don't even attempt to communicate in English when buying groceries. It all depends on the way your family has raised you. If your parents had education or they have the desire to make sure you get one, you will do the right thing. You will attempt to learn the language and not resist.
...I'm not sure if it's PC that's prevents the French government from taking some kind of action. I believe they know any kind of action will escalate towards violence so fast that they can't get their minds around what they will be left with in the aftermath.
It often helps me to re-read a thread, just to follow the lines of thought(s).
Would the result of "escalation towards violence" be greater now or later?
Truckie117
01-02-2011, 22:51
The problem is that most new comers do not want to be American's.
They wish to keep there language and culture. I have had many encounters with these new comers all over the 5 Boroughs of NYC. A lot even just work here and send there money home and then go back there Rich.
I'm old enough to remember my Grandmother saying her parents would never speak German outside the house and you were expected to speak English in public.
They were here to be American.
God Bless America!
DevilSide
01-02-2011, 22:59
The problem is that most new comers do not want to be American's.
They wish to keep there language and culture. I have had many encounters with these new comers all over the 5 Boroughs of NYC. A lot even just work here and send there money home and then go back there Rich.
I'm old enough to remember my Grandmother saying her parents would never speak German outside the house and you were expected to speak English in public.
They were here to be American.
God Bless America!
It shouldn't be about forgetting where you come from and everything, I know many people who came here or are 2nd generation and they still kept their language and some customs. If they want to be so ignorant and stubborn to not even try learning english or respect us then they don't need to be here.
The problem is that most new comers do not want to be American's.
They wish to keep there language and culture. I have had many encounters with these new comers all over the 5 Boroughs of NYC. A lot even just work here and send there money home and then go back there Rich.
I'm old enough to remember my Grandmother saying her parents would never speak German outside the house and you were expected to speak English in public.
They were here to be American.
God Bless America!
Truckie you are correct but keeping language and culture is important so long as you learn the language of your new country. Knowing another language will help you in your future jobs ( if they demand it that is ).
To get back on topic. The problem with France is that they let anyone in without looking into the criminal background. I can assume that those violent ones did not become violent once they came to France, they were violent before. These are not professionals coming to escape the bigotry of the fundamentalists of their country.
Tenure does not exist in nature.
The beauty or horror of America depending on one's perspective, is the "dirt herder's" kids might well on merit surpass the outcome of kid's whose parents ancestors came over on the Mayflower. Maybe they are smarter, or luckier, maybe they just study harder, who knows the explanation. Folks with deep generational American roots start running the race with a relative inherent cultural and often language advantage, do they have the right to cry foul if surpassed? Respect for those who have served in defense of our country obviously makes sense, but this is not an experience confined to natural born citizens. Other than the constraint on Presidential eligibility, what is the rational basis for distinction between law abiding native born and naturalized US citizens?
I believe that Muslims are in France because life sucks in their native lands (North and Sub-Saharan Africa, Middle East, etc)
I agree, but why do they use their new powers and freedoms to transform their new home into the same shithole they came from?
SouthernDZ
01-03-2011, 05:43
To get back on topic. The problem with France is that they let anyone in without looking into the criminal background. I can assume that those violent ones did not become violent once they came to France, they were violent before. These are not professionals coming to escape the bigotry of the fundamentalists of their country.
This alarming trend is also happening in the UK. I think it's a problem of a desire to immigrate, yet not assimilate. In the UK there are large communities of Muslims that have no desire to be come British and are even attempting to establish their own councils that answer only to Sharia law.
I don't think there's a devious master plan coming out of the middle east, but this is a western trend we'd be foolish not to watch. To paraphrase a wise man, the Constitution shouldn't become a suicide pact.
It's not only that, it's the fact that they don't really have any useful skills. I know that when I immigrated with my parents and even though we were considered "refugees" under a certain clause, they wanted to see what skills my parents offered.
It's not only that, it's the fact that they don't really have any useful skills.
Oh, well, then-send them to Detroit. Peas in a pod.
The Reaper
01-03-2011, 09:48
I can assume that those violent ones did not become violent once they came to France, they were violent before.
Now THAT is a hell of an assumption.
Again, you need to look at the trend of second-generation immigrants becoming violent fundamentalists.
IMHO, failure to assimilate is a root cause.
How do we help them to assimilate?
What do we do with the ones who do not?
TR
Does the French society make it easy to assimilate? How did the 1st generation immigrants fare? If not, then as a response, the Frenchmen/women began to show disdain for immigrants from predominantly Muslim nations. As a response, the immigrant youth decided that this nation does not want them and thus we see these neighborhoods form that are hostile to anyone that is not of their own kind.
Throwing them out for failure to assimilate would be a problem since what would the legal basis be? Sure you can throw out the ones that have actively called for terrorist attacks in France but you can't do anything legally against the rest.
Do we have any international lawyers on this board?
It often helps me to re-read a thread, just to follow the lines of thought(s).
Would the result of "escalation towards violence" be greater now or later?
I think the chances of escalation to violence increases in direct proportion to the number of Muslims present in a particular part of a city or borough and to a degree how emboldened they have become related to the governments lack of response to their actions. I believe obnoxious group behavior like the activity shown in the video(blocking traffic in order to pray) will escalate into violence when it suits the purpose of the leaders of this Islamic movement and furthers their agenda.
However, this is obviously pure speculation on my part. I have no Leo experience and still get nervous when I see one behind me while I'm driving. :D
However, I find it interesting the direction of the responses in this thread mostly focus on the individual Muslim's journey etc. . I would suggest that the video in question presents a very different image. I see it pointing to an organized effort. The question is, to what purpose? Joe Middle Eastern immigrant may have come to this country largely due to an individual decision as an effort to better his family, etc., but can we disregard the option that there is a barely shrouded hand directing an organized movement involving knowing and unknowing participants?
From my humble desk I get the feeling that the Islam movement, with organizations like CARE running interference, is making progress towards reaching it's goal. The real question isn't, do these individuals drink beer and hey are they just regular guys, but is there a conscience effort to further an agenda through the actions of coordinated groups? Furthermore, is the agenda or goal of their coordinated effort something extremely detrimental to our Country?
The threshold point of consideration becomes, How do we fight this insidious movement without tearing up the fabric of our rich history of religious and individual freedoms?
The threshold point of consideration becomes, How do we fight this insidious movement without tearing up the fabric of our rich history of religious and individual freedoms?
You can't, it will tear the fabric of this nation at all seams, it will get very messy, families will suffer, women and child will die, young boys will fight, the old and infirmed will be victimized.
Civil unrest,
....then....
we pick ourselves up, dust off the dirt and blood, and get back to living.
Take the collective human experience, find all trends, make your own conclusions.
The earth will remain.
As an investor who merely holds a single share in this planet and based on the historical record, I have come to have very little faith in the competency of its CEO when it comes to such matters...but remain committed to seeing that the division of which I am a part remains as productive as possible.
And so it goes...
Richard :munchin
mojaveman
01-03-2011, 12:22
Does the French society make it easy to assimilate?
No; the French, Swiss, Italians, and Austrians are some of the worst discriminators in Europe. Their governments allow political asylum seekers to come there and they've allowed foreign workers to immigrate, but in the end, the general population discriminates just like anywhere else. It's difficult for young foreigners to find decent employment after they've arrived or to better themselves by higher education or vocational training. As with the thousands of Turks who've immigrated and tried to assimilate into German society over the years, it didn't work. Angela Merkel even admitted the fact to the world.
Had the Europeans had a little more foresight they wouldn't be facing these problems today.
mojaveman
01-03-2011, 12:34
I agree, but why do they use their new powers and freedoms to transform their new home into the same shithole they came from?
It's called taking over or in the case of illegal Mexican immigration, 'Reconquesta'. Go to some ares of Los Angeles or elsewhere in California and look at some of the neighborhoods. I've been here for nearly five decades and I've noticed the changes. The city and county code enforcement officals have plenty of work in those places.
'Shithole' is correct.
I agree, but why do they use their new powers and freedoms to transform their new home into the same shithole they came from?
It's called taking over or in the case of illegal Mexican immigrants, 'Reconquesta'. Go to some ares of Los Angeles and look at some of the neighborhoods. I've been in California for nearly five decades and I've noticed the changes. The city and county code enforcement officals have plenty of work in those places.
'Shithole' is correct.The 'powers that be' have nothing to do with this dynamic?:rolleyes:
silentreader
01-04-2011, 20:41
No; the French, Swiss, Italians, and Austrians are some of the worst discriminators in Europe. Their governments allow political asylum seekers to come there and they've allowed foreign workers to immigrate, but in the end, the general population discriminates just like anywhere else. It's difficult for young foreigners to find decent employment after they've arrived or to better themselves by higher education or vocational training. As with the thousands of Turks who've immigrated and tried to assimilate into German society over the years, it didn't work. Angela Merkel even admitted the fact to the world.
Had the Europeans had a little more foresight they wouldn't be facing these problems today.
I thought I'd break my silence to join in here. This is exactly true. To understand Europe's, and especially France's, problem with Muslim immigrants you have to go back to the end of WW2 and the colonial period.
The short version is this: WW2 depleted Europe's manpower. The Marshall plan ignited the engines of growth in the continent, thus dramatically increasing the demand for labor. Because the Europeans (with their "superior culture") had killed off such a big proportion of their working-age population, they had to import labor. In France, North Africa and Turkey were the two most convenient areas. As others have mentioned, the low birth-rate of Europeans has maintained this deficit of labor.
However, the French never made any attempt to draw their immigrant workers into French society. They kept them at arm's length in the Banlieues ('burbs/ghettos) and designed two separate social systems, one for their French citizens and one for their workers. The 8 weeks of vacation, permanent employment, and all the other luxuries of life in France are only made possible due to the exploitation of the immigrant classes, who enjoy none of the benefits that native French do. It should be no surprise that these neighborhoods have become breading grounds of resentment; the French are reaping what they have sown.
For those worried about Muslims in the US, the vast majority have grown up in a completely different set of circumstances. Life is difficult for them, as it is for any immigrant group, but statistically they have done relatively well for themselves: Muslims in the US generally are well educated and assimilate into their various communities well.
Finally, way back at the beginning of this thread someone said it was "strange" to see women crossing the street unescorted and called it Islam "lite". Go to literally any Muslim-majority country in the world, with the possible exception of Saudi Arabia, and you will see women out and about without escorts. There is nothing Islamic about the draconian rules the Taliban put in place in Afghanistan.
Oldrotorhead
01-04-2011, 20:50
To get back on topic. The problem with France is that they let anyone in without looking into the criminal background. I can assume that those violent ones did not become violent once they came to France, they were violent before. These are not professionals coming to escape the bigotry of the fundamentalists of their country.
For the most part they let in people from former North African colonies. The problem is that most of the colonies are shit holes. Most of the people with money have also left, unless they have some strong connection to their government.
RE Post #58
You're saying it had nothing to do with French post-colonial immigration and naturalization policy combined with their overt cultural bias? Better go back to the library and start over...or join the FN's PR department.
Richard :munchin
Oldrotorhead
01-04-2011, 20:54
I agree, but why do they use their new powers and freedoms to transform their new home into the same shithole they came from?
Sort of like Yankees that move South and want to tell everyone how they do things in NY, NJ, fill in the blank.:D
Sort of like Yankees that move South and want to tell everyone how they do things in NY, NJ, fill in the blank.:D
Exactly, and when the natives get pissed the lamestream liberal media describe them with words that end in “ism” and “phobia”.
silentreader
01-04-2011, 21:12
RE Post #58
You're saying it had nothing to do with French post-colonial immigration and naturalization policy combined with their overt cultural bias? Better go back to the library and start over...or join the FN's PR department.
Richard :munchin
Richard,
I'm sorry, I must not have expressed myself clearly. Let me try to explain relevant bits of my post.
To understand Europe's, and especially France's, problem with Muslim immigrants you have to go back to the end of WW2 and the colonial period.
This seems to imply that it had a lot to do with French post-colonial immigration policy, yes?
The short version is this:
I'll be the first to admit I do need to go back to the library, this is a big part of the reason I attempted to provide a "short" version and not a more detailed one.
However, the French never made any attempt to draw their immigrant workers into French society. They kept them at arm's length in the Banlieues ('burbs/ghettos) and designed two separate social systems, one for their French citizens and one for their workers.
Again, this seems to address both naturalization policy and French cultural bias. In retrospect, I should have mentioned the end of the French colonial period in Algeria before this bit, especially the radically different ways French colonists were treated as compared to Algerians who had supported the French upon their return to France.
The 8 weeks of vacation, permanent employment, and all the other luxuries of life in France are only made possible due to the exploitation of the immigrant classes, who enjoy none of the benefits that native French do. It should be no surprise that these neighborhoods have become breading grounds of resentment; the French are reaping what they have sown.
Unless I am seriously mistaken, the Front National would have a collective heart attack if one of their PR people ever made a statement like that. Unless you read it as me advocating for the "exploitation of the immigrant classes" as a good thing?
RE Post #63
Your suppositons regarding modern French I&N policies and related internal cultural conflicts should - as a minimum - go back to the great post-WW1 migratory period.
The colonial citizens of countries like Algeria, Tunisia, and Morocco were citizens of the Republic - many of them multi-generational citizens - but the societal exclusion they faced in France was unexpectedly even more pronounced than what were endured within their former colonies and has grown perceptively worse on both sides with time. The reasons are numerous and far more complex than what was stated in posts #58 and #63.
A large portion of the post-WW2 immigrants were sephardic Jews from North Africa - not Muslims - and their experiences mirrored those of the Muslims or any other immigrant group. One must answer why that is so to begin to really understand the issues in France today.
Acculturation has always been an issue in Europe - and especially in France (whose immigrant population remains around 10% of its total population) where, in recognition of the problems, the responsibility today lies directly with the French Ministry of Immigration, Integration, National Identity and Codevelopment.
I offer no answers...other than the problems are so, they are complicated, and they are much more than merely a cheap labor, Islam, or any other singular EIB Network talking point issue.
Richard :munchin
silentreader
01-04-2011, 22:12
RE Post #63
Your suppositons regarding modern French I&N policies and related internal cultural conflicts should - as a minimum - go back to the great post-WW1 migratory period.
The colonial citizens of countries like Algeria, Tunisia, and Morocco were citizens of the Republic - many of them multi-generational citizens - but the societal exclusion they faced in France was unexpectedly even more pronounced than what were endured within their former colonies and has grown perceptively worse on both sides with time. The reasons are numerous and far more complex than what was stated in posts #58 and #63.
A large portion of the post-WW2 immigrants were sephardic Jews from North Africa - not Muslims - and their experiences mirrored those of the Muslims or any other immigrant group. One must answer why that is so to begin to really understand the issues in France today.
Acculturation has always been an issue in Europe - and especially in France (whose immigrant population remains around 10% of its total population) where, in recognition of the problems, the responsibility today lies directly with the French Ministry of Immigration, Integration, National Identity and Codevelopment.
I offer no answers...other than the problems are so, they are complicated, and they are much more than merely a cheap labor, Islam, or any other singular EIB Network talking point issue.
Richard :munchin
Thank you for your answer sir, I sent you a PM before I saw it. My knowledge of inter-war France pretty much stops with the building of the Maginot line. I will now go back to my observation deck and go silent, but I'm glad that my participation in this thread drew out this answer.
The 'powers that be' have nothing to do with this dynamic?:rolleyes:
What???
Let me clarify my statement:
I repeatedly hear the argument that [fill in the blank] came to the United States to escape the poverty, violence, oppression, etc, etc of their homeland and to make a better life for them and their family. I understand and support that, my ancestors did the same thing. Who doesn’t want to live the American dream? This is the best place on earth.
But then I hear talk of sharia law in the US, see things on the news about honor killings, muslim cab drivers who will not give rides to people with dogs or who are carrying alcohol, mosques that preach violence, attempted and successful terror attacks, but yet little to no outcry from the “moderate and peaceful”. So my question still stands: Why are they trying to create a mirror image of their old home in their new host…err…home?
So my question still stands: Why are they trying to create a mirror image of their old home in their new host…err…home?
Seems like a question the Native Americans might have been pondering among themselves, too.
Richard :munchin
Seems like a question the Native Americans might have been pondering among themselves, too.
Richard :munchin
There are no Native Americans - Just a disagreement over who got here first - and when.
Should rights in the Americans be based on when you or your ancestors got to the "new land"?
There are no Native Americans - Just a disagreement over who got here first - and when.
Should rights in the Americans be based on when you or your ancestors got to the "new land"?
:D:D:D Roger that!
I say we give the whole Country back to the Basket Weavers. And give them one million baskets apiece.
The short version is this: WW2 depleted Europe's manpower.
While WW2 definitely depleted European manpower, especially in the case of the Germans and Eastern Europeans, is this really applicable to France in WW2, given the fact unlike WW1 in which they suffered grievous casualties, France was rapidly overrun and surrendered very early to the Blitzkrieg in 1940? In the case of France, perhaps it's a combination of a society far less tolerant than they believe themselves to be, and the pitfalls of multiculturalism?
....In the case of France, perhaps it's a combination of a society far less tolerant than they believe themselves to be, and the pitfalls of multiculturalism?
Consider another young country, America, (1860), our own civil war. The US population was aprox. 31,000,000 - US Census
It remains the deadliest war in American history, resulting in the deaths of 620,000 soldiers and an undetermined number of civilian casualties. Ten percent of all Northern males 20–45 years of age died, as did 30 percent of all Southern white males aged 18–40.
I wonder what the totals are by demographic, gender, age, etc., for WWI, WWII were for Russia, China, Germany, France, etc.
It's not just "multiculturalism" that divides us, it is just division.
Maybe Obama will finally give back NY to the natives. Lower Manhattan could use a few Casinos.
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=243153
It's not just "multiculturalism" that divides us, it is just division.
Sir,
As I understand it that is a key distinction between the USA and Europe. As an American my bias is for assimilation vs. multiculturalism. As a nation of immigrants in very simple terms our tradition welcomes productive immigrants from other lands who want to assimilate into our society, as opposed to multiculturalism which lets them in but keeps them living in their own enclaves. IMHO if you combine the latter with tough economic times it can be a powder keg. History has shown whenever some silver tongued devil needs a scapegoat for his rise to power, he just points out, " those people are to blame for all our problems".
I hadn't realized the percentage losses in the US Civil War were so staggering, especially in the South. I recall a theory that many prominent artists, philosophers and writers from the 1920's were Spanish, since we lost an entire generation of talented English, French, and Germans in the trenches of WW1.
I forget the author and the exact quote, but it was along the lines of,
" If you move to America, your children will be Americans, If you move to France you will never be French."
An oversimplification, but I guess we will see...
Sir,
As I understand it that is a key distinction between the USA and Europe. As an American my bias is for assimilation vs. multiculturalism. As a nation of immigrants in very simple terms our tradition welcomes productive immigrants from other lands who want to assimilate into our society, as opposed to multiculturalism which lets them in but keeps them living in their own enclaves. IMHO if you combine the latter with tough economic times it can be a powder keg. History has shown whenever some silver tongued devil needs a scapegoat for his rise to power, he just points out, " those people are to blame for all our problems".
I hadn't realized the percentage losses in the US Civil War were so staggering, especially in the South. I recall a theory that many prominent artists, philosophers and writers from the 1920's were Spanish, since we lost an entire generation of talented English, French, and Germans in the trenches of WW1.
I forget the author and the exact quote, but it was along the lines of,
" If you move to America, your children will be Americans, If you move to France you will never be French."
An oversimplification, but I guess we will see...
The author, I think was Pablo Neruda, assuming I'm wrong, but he did write some smokin' hot stuff.
I quess we're no longer a melting pot, but will forever remain a tossed salad.
incarcerated
01-18-2011, 21:12
See also: http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=369487&postcount=24
Note the black garb:
Groups of Tunisians and supporters hold Tunisian national flags as they demonstrate on Nice streets on January 15, 2011 southern France, the day after ousted Tunisian leader Zine El Abidine Ben Ali fled the country with his family. As Tunisia's former colonial power, France has a large population of Tunisian origin and Tunisian immigrants.
Sort of like Yankees that move South and want to tell everyone how they do things in NY, NJ, fill in the blank. :D
In Boone and Blowing Rock they're called Halfbacks :D
http://www.southeastdiscovery.com/southern-way-of-life/2011/01/half-backs-and-snow-birds-%E2%80%93-north-carolina-surpassing-florida
incarcerated
01-22-2011, 01:20
http://www.stratfor.com/analysis/20110121-alleged-bin-laden-message-focuses-france
Alleged Bin Laden Message Focuses on France
January 21, 2011 | 1918 GMT
Al Jazeera broadcast a new audio message Jan. 21 allegedly recorded by al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden that focused on France and its president, Nicolas Sarkozy. Bin Laden called for the removal of French troops from Afghanistan in return for releasing French hostages. This is the second al Qaeda message in a row directed at France, indicating a renewed jihadist focus on the country....