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SouthernDZ
12-22-2010, 05:28
The sad state of our education system.



APNewsBreak: Nearly 1 in 4 fails military exam

By CHRISTINE ARMARIO and DORIE TURNER
Associated Press

MIAMI (AP) -- Nearly one-fourth of the students who try to join the U.S. Army fail its entrance exam, painting a grim picture of an education system that produces graduates who can't answer basic math, science and reading questions, according to a new study released Tuesday.

The report by The Education Trust bolsters a growing worry among military and education leaders that the pool of young people qualified for military service will grow too small.

"Too many of our high school students are not graduating ready to begin college or a career - and many are not eligible to serve in our armed forces," U.S. Education Secretary Arne Duncan told the AP. "I am deeply troubled by the national security burden created by America's underperforming education system."

The effect of the low eligibility rate might not be noticeable now - the Department of Defense says it is meeting its recruitment goals - but that could change as the economy improves, said retired Navy Rear Admiral Jamie Barnett.

"If you can't get the people that you need, there's a potential for a decline in your readiness," said Barnett, who is part of the group Mission: Readiness, a coalition of retired military leaders working to bring awareness to the high ineligibility rates.

The report by The Education Trust found that 23 percent of recent high school graduates don't get the minimum score needed on the enlistment test to join any branch of the military. Questions are often basic, such as: "If 2 plus x equals 4, what is the value of x?"

The military exam results are also worrisome because the test is given to a limited pool of people: Pentagon data shows that 75 percent of those aged 17 to 24 don't even qualify to take the test because they are physically unfit, have a criminal record or didn't graduate high school.

Educators expressed dismay that so many high school graduates are unable to pass a test of basic skills.

"It's surprising and shocking that we are still having students who are walking across the stage who really don't deserve to be and haven't earned that right," said Tim Callahan with the Professional Association of Georgia Educators, a group that represents more than 80,000 educators.

Kenneth Jackson, 19, of Miami, enlisted in the Army after graduating from high school. He said passing the entrance exam is easy for those who paid attention in school, but blamed the education system for why more recruits aren't able to pass the test. "The classes need to be tougher because people aren't learning enough," Jackson said.

This is the first time that the U.S. Army has released this test data publicly, said Amy Wilkins of The Education Trust, a Washington, D.C.-based children's advocacy group. The study examined the scores of nearly 350,000 high school graduates, ages 17 to 20, who took the ASVAB exam between 2004 and 2009. About half of the applicants went on to join the Army.

Recruits must score at least a 31 out of 99 on the first stage of the three-hour test to get into the Army. The Marines, Air Force, Navy and Coast Guard recruits need higher scores. Further tests determine what kind of job the recruit can do with questions on mechanical maintenance, accounting, word comprehension, mathematics and science.

The study shows wide disparities in scores among white and minority students, similar to racial gaps on other standardized tests. Nearly 40 percent of black students and 30 percent of Hispanics don't pass, compared with 16 percent of whites. The average score for blacks is 38 and for Hispanics is 44, compared to whites' average score of 55.

Even those passing muster on the Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery, or ASVAB, usually aren't getting scores high enough to snag the best jobs.

"A lot of times, schools have failed to step up and challenge these young people, thinking it didn't really matter - they'll straighten up when they get into the military," said Kati Haycock, president of the Education Trust. "The military doesn't think that way."

Entrance exams for the U.S. military date to World War I. The test has changed over time as computers and technology became more prevalent, and skills like ability to translate Morse code have fallen by the wayside.

The test was overhauled in 2004, and the study only covers scores from 2004 through 2009. The Education Trust didn't request examine earlier data to avoid a comparison between two versions of the test, said Christina Theokas, the author of the study. The Army did not immediately respond to requests for further information.

Tom Loveless, an education expert at the Brookings Institution think tank, said the results echo those on other tests. In 2009, 26 percent of seniors performed below the 'basic' reading level on the National Assessment of Education Progress.

Other tests, like the SAT, look at students who are going to college.

"A lot of people make the charge that in this era of accountability and standardized testing, that we've put too much emphasis on basic skills," Loveless said. "This study really refutes that. We have a lot of kids that graduate from high school who have not mastered basic skills."

The study also found disparities across states, with Wyoming having the lowest ineligibility rate, at 13 percent, and Hawaii having the highest, at 38.3 percent.

Retired military leaders say the report's findings are cause for concern.

"The military is a lot more high-tech than in the past," said retired Air Force Lt. Gen. Norman R. Seip. "I don't care if you're a soldier Marine carrying a backpack or someone sitting in a research laboratory, the things we expect out of our military members requires a very, very well educated force."

A Department of Defense report notes the military must recruit about 15 percent of youth, but only one-third are eligible. More high school graduates are going to college than in earlier decades, and about one-fourth are obese, making them medically ineligible.

In 1980, by comparison, just 5 percent of youth were obese.


http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_MILITARY_EXAM?SITE=FLTAM&SECTION=US

Pete
12-22-2010, 06:18
If you've ever served under a senior NCO who was one of MacNamara's 100,000 you know why the Military needs the entrance tests.

uplink5
12-22-2010, 08:23
Great,
Now that the failure of our government education system is becoming a national security issue, they'll fix it. Right?

:confused:......jd

lindy
12-22-2010, 08:33
That is UNFAIR!!! It's not their fault they dropped out or didn't do well in school. These people are being discriminated!!!

Next up: DTDT (Don't Test, Don't Tell). :rolleyes:

SouthernDZ
12-22-2010, 08:59
Next up: DTDT (Don't Test, Don't Tell). :rolleyes:

Started to laugh then I remembered the number of felons that were being accepted when recruiting fell below predictions.
There's an ebb and flow to these events (sucks to be present during the ebb).

1stindoor
12-22-2010, 09:08
Started to laugh then I remembered the number of felons that were being accepted when recruiting fell below predictions.
There's an ebb and flow to these events (sucks to be present during the ebb).

Sucks to be present during the flow at times too.

During USASMA I had a recruiter in my small group, he laid out the "stats" for our class...it was pretty ugly. He said that roughly 25% of the graduating seniors failed the ASVAB, of those passing, only 10-15% of them had high enough scores for some of our more technical fields. He stated the obvious though that a lot of the higher scoring kids went the USAF and USN route.

uplink5
12-22-2010, 09:11
(sucks to be present during the ebb).

oh yeah....
Came in during the Carter years, yuck. God I hope we never go back there again.

.....jd

Dusty
12-22-2010, 09:14
I'd love to see statistics on the scoring/passing percentages of home-schooled entrants.

uplink5
12-22-2010, 09:28
I'd love to see statistics on the scoring/passing percentages of home-schooled entrants.

Me too.....

My wife and I home school our youngest. (She’s 13 now) Of course I'm prepared to brag a bit on her but additionally, the kids we've met who are also home schooled have proven to me a very distinct improvement, and advantage over public schooled kids.

Other advantages such as a lack of what passes as modern cultural thinking and behavior in public schools, are not missed either....jd

ZonieDiver
12-22-2010, 09:50
Me too.....

My wife and I home school our youngest. (She’s 13 now) Of course I'm prepared to brag a bit on her but additionally, the kids we've met who are also home schooled have proven to me a very distinct improvement, and advantage over public schooled kids.

Other advantages such as a lack of what passes as modern cultural thinking and behavior in public schools, are not missed either....jd

While much of my daughters' formative education came in parochial school, they also spent copious amounts of time in public schools in the various places we lived. I'll stack them up against any home-schooled kid any day.

For me, the major advantage that home-schooled kids have is that of "parental involvement"! In the case of home schooling, that parental involvement is monumental. Having taught in public education since 1975 (with time off on occasion for good behavior), I can attest that in most cases, if there is a strong level of parental involvement, there is a strong chance for student success (however one might interpret that). This success is not connected with race, ethnicity, income level, or educational trappings.

It comes from their parents inculcating in them the idea of "wanna"! You've "gotta wanna"! If you wanna, you will.

uplink5
12-22-2010, 10:02
While much of my daughters' formative education came in parochial school, they also spent copious amounts of time in public schools in the various places we lived. I'll stack them up against any home-schooled kid any day.

For me, the major advantage that home-schooled kids have is that of "parental involvement"! In the case of home schooling, that parental involvement is monumental. Having taught in public education since 1975 (with time off on occasion for good behavior), I can attest that in most cases, if there is a strong level of parental involvement, there is a strong chance for student success (however one might interpret that). This success is not connected with race, ethnicity, income level, or educational trappings.

It comes from their parents inculcating in them the idea of "wanna"! You've "gotta wanna"! If you wanna, you will.

Agreed,
I should have added that all is dependent upon the school system, and the parenting. My two oldest, one who just graduated UNC and the other who is on her way, went to the same public schools we had our youngest in. Unfortunately, many changes have occurred primarily in the middle school here and not for the better. Believe me, we wish it wasn't necessary but, this community has sprung many new home schoolers in the last few years...jd

Richard
12-22-2010, 10:06
Personally - this doesn't seem like a 'tragedy' or 'systemic failure' to me but a logical consequence of a personal failure on the part of the applicants to research the requirements for a military career, do an honest PAI of themselves, and either seek a better fitting career choice or to prepare themselves accordingly (whether mentally or physically).

Why does everyone think that if you 'fail' to get into college or some other job that you can 'always' get into the military? :confused:

The military is a very competetive career and preparation, as with any professional career, is important - not only for entry, but for future success.

I don't understand why the focus of such an issue nearly always seems to be on some sort of 'negative'.

Oh, wait...let me think! It's another one of those 'magical opportunity' issues of great complexity (for which people want simple solutions that do not exist) and can be used handily by:


the media to alarm the citizenry and sell papers/air time,
Mr Ed (the talking jack@$$ at DofEd) to ask for more $$$ and greater control of the school systems
the NEA/NTA/et al to bemoan the lack of funding of our school systems and teacher salaries combined with poor parental participation and support,
politicians campaigning for reelection to feign concern and propose solutions which would make Nebulla award winning science-fiction
pundits selling opinions which decry the decline of our national values and educational edge in the world with a tone that infers anybody educated in one of the 33 or so countries ranked higher than the US in the latest UNICEF polls would be guaranteed entry into the military
etc...

IMO, acknowledging that the military does not just take everyone who is merely breathing, can walk and chew gum at the same time, and does not merit institutionalization is a positive thing.

And so it goes...

Richard :munchin

1stindoor
12-22-2010, 11:39
This success is not connected with race, ethnicity, income level, or educational trappings.

It comes from their parents inculcating in them the idea of "wanna"! You've "gotta wanna"! If you wanna, you will.

Isn't there an old Henry Ford quote along the lines of whether you think you can or think you can't...you're usually right.

nousdefions
12-22-2010, 11:54
I just talked to a co-worker whose son-in-law is a recruiter in the DFW area. He confirmed that the failure rate is around 25%. The biggest areas of failure are in math and science, where the score is usually in the teens (10-19).

I'm really glad to see that the emphasis on diversity and political correctness in the the public school systems are working so well.......

Ewok
12-22-2010, 11:57
I read this story last night and was left wondering if the statistics are pulled from all high school seniors or from those taking the ASVAB with the actual intent of joining the military. I remember taking this test in high school and there were several people who intentionally failed it so they would not have recruiters calling and paying visits, as they had no intention of ever joining the military. My sister was one of them. She instructed me to "Christmas tree" the test so I wouldn't be recruited. I didn't and did have lots of offers from lots of recruiters since I scored quite well and I'm female but it was easy enough to say "No thank you" and go on with my day.

SouthernDZ
12-22-2010, 11:59
I wondered if this report denoting the shrinking pool of qualified applicants for military service coming out on the tail of the Dream Act (citizenship for military service) is just a coincidence?

Sure, I'm just paranoid......

James D
12-22-2010, 12:04
You have to remember the ASVAB scores are based on percentiles, at least the AFQT which is acknowledged in the article. This means that at least 30% of everyone who takes the exam will fail if a 31 is passing. It isn't surprising then that slightly under 25% of students are failing. What would help clarify is the number of students taking the ASVAB per year versus adults out of the school system taking the ASVAB. As well, how many students take the exam out of the total national student population. This would present a clearer picture of how education is impacting the failure rate.

Richard
12-22-2010, 12:16
I wondered if this report denoting the shrinking pool of qualified applicants for military service coming out on the tail of the Dream Act (citizenship for military service) is just a coincidence?

Sure, I'm just paranoid......

When I was drafted, there were non-citizens living in the US on work and student visas being drafted with us. My bunkmate (he had the upper, I had the lower) in AIT at FLW was a Korean studying at UCLA when he was drafted.

Richard :munchin

Jgood
12-22-2010, 15:26
I agree 100%

My family and I just moved off post into the local public school system, we were concerned about the low test scores of the district but decided if we felt our kids education was suffering we would just step-up our involvement even more than usual. All too often the education of our kids in this nation is just left to an overloaded system.

While much of my daughters' formative education came in parochial school, they also spent copious amounts of time in public schools in the various places we lived. I'll stack them up against any home-schooled kid any day.

For me, the major advantage that home-schooled kids have is that of "parental involvement"! In the case of home schooling, that parental involvement is monumental. Having taught in public education since 1975 (with time off on occasion for good behavior), I can attest that in most cases, if there is a strong level of parental involvement, there is a strong chance for student success (however one might interpret that). This success is not connected with race, ethnicity, income level, or educational trappings.

It comes from their parents inculcating in them the idea of "wanna"! You've "gotta wanna"! If you wanna, you will.

PSM
12-22-2010, 19:06
My wife and I are about to move to the Ft. Huachuca area and my wife, who has a teaching credential, has been keeping tabs on the local job market. She found a listing for a teacher on the Fort to teach GED classes. I thought you had to be an HS graduate or have a GED before enlisting. Ft. H. is not a Basic Training facility. :confused:

Pat

Richard
12-22-2010, 19:21
My wife and I are about to move to the Ft. Huachuca area and my wife, who has a teaching credential, has been keeping tabs on the local job market. She found a listing for a teacher on the Fort to teach GED classes. I thought you had to be an HS graduate or have a GED before enlisting. Ft. H. is not a Basic Training facility. :confused:

Pat

Dependents.

Richard :munchin

Richard
12-22-2010, 20:07
The sad state of our education system.

Some things to consider.

Richard :munchin

Is a Good Teacher Worth $400,000?
Atlantic, 21 Dec 2010

Over the course of a school year, a good teacher produces $400,000 more in future earnings for a class of 20 students than an average teacher. What's more, replacing the worst-performing five to eight percent of teachers with average teachers could catapult the U.S. to near the top of international math and science rankings, padding GDP by $100 trillion and generating returns that dwarf "the discussions of U.S. economic stimulus packages related to the 2008 recession ($1 trillion)."

These are the findings of a National Bureau of Economic Research study by Stanford's Eric Hanushek, which investigates the interplay between teacher effectiveness and the economic impact of higher student achievement, specifically in terms of test scores.

Hanushek notes that one challenge his paper doesn't tackle is how to link pay to effectiveness; instead, the research "simply suggests that the economically appropriate rewards for particularly effective teachers in the context of a performance pay plan could be very large."

How are commentators receiving the findings?

There Are Two Ways to Interpret This Data, argues Adam Ozimek at Modeled Behavior. Studies like this show that teachers are valuable and that we should raise wages to attract better talent. But:

If good teachers are very valuable, then bad teachers are very costly. This means we should be willing to pay more for good teachers, but it also increases the benefit of getting rid of bad teachers and ensuring we have a system that can do that. After all, every dollar spent on a bad teacher has the high opportunity cost of good teachers. Findings like this tell us that we should place even less relative value on teacher well-being for it’s own sake (which is separate from teacher well-being to the extent that it improves outcomes) when considering reforms. I think this is something that some progressives aren’t as happy to hear, especially with regard to using the teaching profession as a middle class jobs program.

Shrinking Class Sizes Has Diluted Teacher Talent, asserts Reihan Salam at National Review:

Had we stayed at the teacher-student ratios of the 1970s, we'd have 2.2 million public school teachers rather than 3.2 million. Know what else happened over the last 40 years? Labor market discrimination against women and African Americans declined, giving talented female and African American workers who had once gravitated to the teaching profession other options. Allowing effective teachers to take on larger classes in exchange for more pay could have a powerful positive effect.

We Should Put The Findings In Context of Other Research, says Catherine Rampell at The New York Times. She mentions a recent study claiming that a strong kindergarten teacher is worth $320,000 a year based on the additional earnings that a class of students can expect to earn during the course of their careers.

Benefits of Above-Average Education Will Only Increase, states Derek Thompson at The Atlantic. In this "stratified, winner-takes-almost-all economy," he explains, "the middle class has hollowed out and earnings among the college-educated far outstrip high school graduates." Thompson also compares Hanushek's research to a 2009 McKinsey finding that if the American education system performed at the level of South Korea, the US economy would improve by a sixth of GDP, or more than $2 trillion.

http://atlanticwire.theatlantic.com/opinions/view/opinion/Is-a-Good-Teacher-Worth-400000-6289

Crue
12-22-2010, 20:07
I saw the test scores for every kid that wanted to join the Marines in NJ for about 3 years. My .02 cents:

-We would have each Marine set 3 appointments a day because 1 would be morally DQ, 1 would not pass the pre ASVAB ( 30 min test given in the office to let you know if you were wasting your time), and 1 would turn into an interview. From there it would take 3 interviews to turn into a working applicant because 1 would be found medically disqualified, 1 would not pass the ASVAB, and 1 would be good to go. From there it would take 3 of these guys to make a Marine because 2 would never show up for their boot camp date/back out before or would fail out of boot camp. Each Recruiter had their own specific 90 day data but on average most Recruiters could expect number like this.

-Home school kids scored extremely well.
-Charter school kids scored pretty well.
-Kids from inner city schools that could score well on the ASVAB had no interest in joining the military. Kids that wanted to join couldn't pass the ASVAB.
-A lot of kids that fail will retake the ASVAB every 30 days they are eligible for up to three times ( does the study take this into account I wonder?)
-Recruiters will bring a van full of kids at the end of the month to take the ASVAB that they know probably won't pass (Rock Run) in the hopes one of them gets lucky.
-Green card holders from anywhere besides Latin America will usually score high enough on the math portions to just barely pass the whole test even know they bomb the English section ( not a slight on LA just what I remember).
-I investigated 2 cases of recruiters having PVTs home on leave take the ASVAB for other kids. There are many more that don't get caught.
-The most successful Recruiters will have one of their smarter Recruits/Poolees lead a study group.
-I looked up some of my best Marines from my time in an Infantry Bn and they definitely were not the ones with the highest QTs.

PSM
12-22-2010, 20:21
Dependents.

Richard :munchin

I thought of that, but they go to school in town, I believe, and there is a community college there. (Maybe those MI guys are getting a refresher course. :D) She'd be happy to take the job, though. ;)

Pat

Richard
12-22-2010, 21:17
Pat,

Dependents...as in wives/husbands.

Richard :munchin

PSM
12-22-2010, 21:50
Pat,

Dependents...as in wives/husbands.

Richard :munchin

D'oh! That I had not considered. Gracias, mi amigo. ;)

Pat

Wolf07
12-23-2010, 09:54
I attended a small private school through the 8th grade. It made all the difference when I went to a public school, and set the groundwork for future success. I thought the ASVAB was very easy. Frankly, if you don't have the discipline to prepare or do your homework, then I have difficulty seeing how you will be an asset rather than a burden.


My .02, YMMV

mark46th
12-23-2010, 10:11
So much for that new cannon fodder MOS...