View Full Version : Man Shoots up School Board Meeting
aegisnavy
12-14-2010, 23:44
Pretty scary situation. Looks like an attempted suicide-by-security guard attempt that he had to finish off himself. :eek:
http://www.wjhg.com/home/headlines/Man_takes_hostages_shoots_at_Bay_County_School_Boa rd_meeting_111871839.html
What's up with the "V," was that some sort of Paulbot insignia? :confused:
So much for gun-free zones...
I hate to to be the one to say...... But it seems the SWAT Team should of been right out side the door. Why did they wait until the shooting to start/end before making entry. There should of been cops stacked at the door. As soon as he fired the first shot they should of been coming in.
According to another news source, it was a school security officer who took down the suspect.
What's up with the "V," was that some sort of Paulbot insignia?
Circle-V is a visual acronym for 'vicious circle' - the school board and observers shoulda picked up on that one as soon as he painted it on the wall and upped their concerns about the guy's intentions.
Richard
What's up with the "V," was that some sort of Paulbot insignia? :confused:
So much for gun-free zones...
I'd have to agree with Richard on this, because the only other place I've seen that symbol was in V for Vendetta. I haven't heard anything that said he was an anarchist.
[link to graphic novel]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V_for_Vendetta
What was scary for me was that the MEN (loosely used) just sat there while this guy worked himself up to the rage for shooting. Then...when he starts shooting, they cower and continue to SIT!!! WTH!!!???? Only a WOMAN had the gumption to go up to him and start slamming him with her purse. What the hell has this world come to??
aegisnavy
12-15-2010, 09:39
What was scary for me was that the MEN (loosely used) just sat there while this guy worked himself up to the rage for shooting. Then...when he starts shooting, they cower and continue to SIT!!! WTH!!!???? Only a WOMAN had the gumption to go up to him and start slamming him with her purse. What the hell has this world come to??
One thing that it brought to the forefront for me personally is to raise my level of general alertness.
The Reaper
12-15-2010, 09:40
What was scary for me was that the MEN (loosely used) just sat there while this guy worked himself up to the rage for shooting. Then...when he starts shooting, they cower and continue to SIT!!! WTH!!!???? Only a WOMAN had the gumption to go up to him and start slamming him with her purse. What the hell has this world come to??
Sheeple at the slaughter.
TR
All over the forum in various posts is a growing observation, or reporting if you will, of reprisals against authority and the social fabric that holds us together.
This board has some serious dot connectors, and as I ponder what each of the following represents, I must conclude a trend is manifesting itself. Especially, if these institutions in the past week which are the subject of the rage, when viewed, don’t elicit a sense of WTF, that they seem part of the new normal has me concerned: Prince Charles, police officer attack, and this school board shooting; and has me purchasing boat loads of everyone’s favorite ammo-Wolf .223 , locking in a camping site cabin in NE PA, and making sure the truck and go bags are well prepared.
Mexico a failed state, hell what do you think would have occurred if unemployment benefits were not extended? The country would be in flames.
True. But on the other hand what do you expect when you have a crappy economy, a government that continues to spend and grow, the billions spent on the 'O' Tour Live, an increasing DHS Snitch network, an open border, large scale fraud that goes unpunished, bailouts, Pensions getting robbed, Benefits for Non-Citizens, banks making record profits in a crappy economy, Global Warming Scam, Uncollected Government Employee Back Taxes, Fluorescent Light bulbs, Ms. Obama and the Food Police, government taking over private business, new regulations that hinder private business, wacko special interest groups, radicals running the show.....and lets not forget special treatment for individuals like Charlie Rangel. The list is endless.
And the solution(s) generally seem to come out of our pockets.
Clay Duke's Facebook page reads:
My Testament: Some people (the government sponsored media) will say I was evil, a monster (V)... no... I was just born poor in a country where the Wealthy manipulate, use, abuse, and economically enslave 95% of the population. Rich Republicans, Rich Democrats... same-same... rich... they take turns fleecing us... our few dollars... pyramiding the wealth for themselves. The 95%... the us, in US of A, are the neo slaves of the Global South. Our Masters, the Wealthy, do, as they like to us..."
While I think there is 'some' truth in what he stated, Mr. Duke had bought hook, line and sinker the 'Rich is Evil' and 'US VS. Them' mentality. Not all wealthy people are running scams, but I think it is likely we will see a increasing trend in the number of people that have the view of Mr. Duke.
All over the forum in various posts is a growing observation, or reporting if you will, of reprisals against authority and the social fabric that holds us together.
This board has some serious dot connectors, and as I ponder what each of the following represents, I must conclude a trend is manifesting itself. Especially, if these institutions in the past week which are the subject of the rage, when viewed, don’t elicit a sense of WTF, that they seem part of the new normal has me concerned: Prince Charles, police officer attack, and this school board shooting; and has me purchasing boat loads of everyone’s favorite ammo-Wolf .223 , locking in a camping site cabin in NE PA, and making sure the truck and go bags are well prepared.
Mexico a failed state, hell what do you think would have occurred if unemployment benefits were not extended? The country would be in flames.
lol I'm already there, Bro.
We need to set up a commo net with all the Brothers, incidentally.
I'd have to agree with Richard on this, because the only other place I've seen that symbol was in V for Vendetta. I haven't heard anything that said he was an anarchist.
[link to graphic novel]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V_for_Vendetta
"Vagina Monologues"?
Aliens?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQBRBp-xN_U
What was scary for me was that the MEN (loosely used) just sat there while this guy worked himself up to the rage for shooting. Then...when he starts shooting, they cower and continue to SIT!!! WTH!!!???? Only a WOMAN had the gumption to go up to him and start slamming him with her purse. What the hell has this world come to??
Look at what passes for a "man" on television these days.
So-called "men" make Wally Cox look macho, now.
It's the feminization of America, and it's a major reason why every sorry POTUS we ever had was elected.
Women have been trying to deflate men's juevos since before S.B. Anthony.
Disclaimer: Dusty is not a misogynist. He is a happily married man with several female friends (who know what it means to be truly feminine.)
Red Flag 1
12-15-2010, 10:34
What was scary for me was that the MEN (loosely used) just sat there while this guy worked himself up to the rage for shooting. Then...when he starts shooting, they cower and continue to SIT!!! WTH!!!???? Only a WOMAN had the gumption to go up to him and start slamming him with her purse. What the hell has this world come to??
Looking @ the clip, the "guys" missed the opening provided by the lady with the purse. They had a clear opportunity to take the shooter down when the lady made her move; sheeple do as sheeple are I guess, nod to TR!!.
RF 1
ps: yet another reason to CCW
r
Duke was a BIG guy and armed.
The school board was unarmed and a bunch of people used to resolving issues by sitting behind desks and palavering - their SA was wholly lacking for such a situation as this one and their only recourse (as they saw it) was to apply what they knew...which they did.
Duke was crazy and looking to become a martyr.
The situation may have turned bloody if Duke had been rushed - he wasn't, and the only person shot was Duke himself...a fairytale ending.
I'd wager they'll have a better security presence at any such meetings in the future.
Coulda-shoulda-woulda...and so it goes...
Richard :munchin
PedOncoDoc
12-15-2010, 10:58
ps: yet another reason to CCW
This was more than likely labeled a "gun free zone", so law-abiding CCW holders likely left their sidearms in their vehicles, so CCW arguments don't apply here, except when discussing whether "gun free zones" should exist.
True, the situation did end well with no injuries except to the perp, but I agree with many others here that the men had a responsibility, as men, to stand up and put this guy down without hesitation or restriction of force.
Good on the woman to stand up when the men failed to do so.
What was scary for me was that the MEN (loosely used) just sat there while this guy worked himself up to the rage for shooting. Then...when he starts shooting, they cower and continue to SIT!!! WTH!!!???? Only a WOMAN had the gumption to go up to him and start slamming him with her purse. What the hell has this world come to??
Upon reading the comments from the news source link, several are calling her a hero, while others criticize her actions, (flight, fight, fear), who knows? Her doing something is better than doing nothing by others.
Duke was a BIG guy and armed.
The school board was unarmed and a bunch of people used to resolving issues by sitting behind desks and palavering - their SA was wholly lacking for such a situation as this one and their only recourse (as they saw it) was to apply what they knew...which they did.
Richard :munchin
You know Hillar could teach a class to this board, or Wolfgang could instruct on the range. Seems there is a good opportunity to instruct school board members on these perp around the country.
"Let's see, 100,000 HS, equal number of Jr. HS, Elem., Pre-schools, etc. X number is board members, $350 each, plus ammo....."
Personally, I'd rather live in a society that does not require SWAT, LEO or armed guards to stand watch at every school board meeting accross the country.
Her doing something is better than doing nothing by others.
They were doing something - trying to figure out the guy's problems and talk him into accepting another course of action.
Based on what she did and the effect it had on the guy, she was very lucky he ignored her weak attempt to disarm him off and didn't shoot her and others in the area.
Bottom line - they're all alive - so what they did worked. Sometimes not taking physical action can be the best course of action - but we can only know that for sure in analytical hindsight.
Personally, I'd rather live in a society that does not require SWAT, LEO or armed guards to stand watch at every school board meeting accross the country.
School boards are publicly elected bodies and generally operate in both closed (board members and invited personnel only for planning sessions or investigations) and open (where anybody can attend) forums.
Open board meetings are advertised ahead of time and, in many communities, have a local school district campus police or other LE presence because you never know who will show up at the meetings.
It's been that way for a long time and it is the society we live in.
And so it goes...
Richard :munchin
aegisnavy
12-15-2010, 12:28
Duke was crazy and looking to become a martyr.
The situation may have turned bloody if Duke had been rushed - he wasn't, and the only person shot was Duke himself...a fairytale ending.
Agreed on both points. In addition, it is quite amazing that he got off a few rounds at under 10 yards and no one was hit...a fairytale come true.
Richard - got your argument to a point. When the shooting starts, you need ACTION, violent and unrestrained. The fact that they continued to SIT....I am shocked. They didn't even run, they just sat and continued to be victims.
Active shooter response has changed dramatically in the last few years. When the bullets start flying, its time to "man-up" and have at it. Sitting in your chair and quietly waiting to become a statistic just ain't in the book anymore.
I wasn't there so will not judge them - to a point. But, when the shooting starts......now you're on a different timeline; you need to act. Do something: attack, retreat, flee...but DO SOMETHING!!!
But, when the shooting starts......now you're on a different timeline; you need to act. Do something: attack, retreat, flee...but DO SOMETHING!!!
Video is here.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2010-12-15-school-board-shooting_N.htm?csp=YahooModule_News
Richard
Richard - got your argument to a point. When the shooting starts, you need ACTION, violent and unrestrained. The fact that they continued to SIT....I am shocked. They didn't even run, they just sat and continued to be victims.
Active shooter response has changed dramatically in the last few years. When the bullets start flying, its time to "man-up" and have at it. Sitting in your chair and quietly waiting to become a statistic just ain't in the book anymore.
I wasn't there so will not judge them - to a point. But, when the shooting starts......now you're on a different timeline; you need to act. Do something: attack, retreat, flee...but DO SOMETHING!!!
The woman's action, not her motives are being questioned. She could have accomplished the same thing by climbing up his back, choking him out, biting his ear, etc., and I'd bet the "guys" sitting down would have opened a bag of popcorn to see how it was going to end rather than do something.
She is untrained, but her instincts to defend are respectable. She decided not to vegatate or vacillate.
IMHO some of the folks in there showed real courage, particularly the lady with the purse who was free and clear, and the board member who can clearly be heard trying to draw the gunman's anger away from the others onto himself, claiming he was the one who made the decisions which angered the gunman, and asking to let the others go.
No sympathy for the gunman, it seems he got what he wanted, an opportunity to speak his mind, and death. He was at least no assassin like a Hassan who just started out blasting. This gunmen let the women go, and didn't shoot the lady after she hit him with the purse. Still a nut, particularly at the end, this could have been much worse.
Richard - got your argument to a point. When the shooting starts, you need ACTION, violent and unrestrained. The fact that they continued to SIT....I am shocked. They didn't even run, they just sat and continued to be victims.
Active shooter response has changed dramatically in the last few years. When the bullets start flying, its time to "man-up" and have at it. Sitting in your chair and quietly waiting to become a statistic just ain't in the book anymore.
I wasn't there so will not judge them - to a point. But, when the shooting starts......now you're on a different timeline; you need to act. Do something: attack, retreat, flee...but DO SOMETHING!!!
Police active shooter training always teaches on thing. Move fast to the sound of gunfire. Back to my original question. Why did the cops wait until the shooting stopped to enter
CombatMuffin
12-15-2010, 16:11
It amazes me how calm the shooter was. Although he was determined to kill those people and die, he didn't rush at all, and evacuated the majority in the room...
I can't criticize ¨Ginger,¨to be honest, because I don't know what I would do in such a situation where I was unarmed and under high stress, at least her intentions were noble. I've heard people can become unpredictable (like in the Norrmalmstorg robbery in Stockholm).
Makes me wonder why self-defense/ personal protection classes aren't taught like any other obligatory course in a person's education. Personal safety is as important as learning math, history or any other class.
Naw - Kgoerz is right - the paradigm now for active-shooter response is to rush to the sound of gunfire; engage. Keep the guy on the defensive until more officers arrive and box him in. We've seen what happens when you wait for back-up. It ain't pretty.
Also - this was in Florida, how many of us would have been unarmed??
This was more than likely labeled a "gun free zone", so law-abiding CCW holders likely left their sidearms in their vehicles, so CCW arguments don't apply here, except when discussing whether "gun free zones" should exist.
Perhaps if there had been better signage this wouldn’t have happened, Duke would have taken notice :confused:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7pGt_O1uM8 :D
IMO, Denying people their right to self defense doesn’t work, and GFZ’s create magnets for psychopaths :(
Note to perps, if you want unarmed victims, Gun-Free Zones guarantee easy targets.
Red Flag 1
12-15-2010, 16:50
This was more than likely labeled a "gun free zone", so law-abiding CCW holders likely left their sidearms in their vehicles, so CCW arguments don't apply here, except when discussing whether "gun free zones" should exist.
True, the situation did end well with no injuries except to the perp, but I agree with many others here that the men had a responsibility, as men, to stand up and put this guy down without hesitation or restriction of force.
Good on the woman to stand up when the men failed to do so.
Agreed, pretty likely weapons were not permitted in that it was a "school function". Wonder if they will start using metal detectors or hold meetings where such detectors are being used. Lucky day for school board!
RF 1
PedOncoDoc
12-15-2010, 17:27
IMO, Denying people their right to self defense doesn’t work, and GFZ’s create magnets for psychopaths :(
Note to perps, if you want unarmed victims, Gun-Free Zones guarantee easy targets.
This is old news. A majority of the mass shootings and hostage situations of recent memory have been in "GFZ's" - malls, schools, churches - one can only assume that these areas have intentionally been selected for the density of population and restrictions on low-abiding citizens.
Circle-V is a visual acronym for 'vicious circle' - the school board and observers shoulda picked up on that one as soon as he painted it on the wall and upped their concerns about the guy's intentions.
Richard
Thanks for the explanation Richard, the links below are why I though maybe he had a Ron Paul sticker on his car :eek: :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCz-zpbhaGE
http://hotair.com/archives/2007/10/19/video-ron-paul-supporters-getting-creepier-by-the-minute/
http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&safe=active&q=ron+paul+v+for+vendetta&aq=0&aqi=g1g-o1&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=c341562a61b59af3
:munchin
Goggles Pizano
12-16-2010, 06:44
Because LE training teachs to be safe, think of what a lawyer might say if you shoot and other politically correct bullshit to cover the department they work for instead of true survival tactics. ie they were probably waiting for a go from some administrater trying to make up their mind per policy and procedure.
Police training since Columbine has been refined. The majority of larger departments train annually for active shooter (mine included), and as JimP stated our SOP makes halting the shooting the focal point. I agree the SWAT team moved entirely too slow. Someone's ass should be fired for that, but knowing police politics they will look at a zero casualty list and cry "win".
Makes me wonder why self-defense/ personal protection classes aren't taught like any other obligatory course in a person's education. Personal safety is as important as learning math, history or any other class.
Let's take a look at schools and schooling. Our public education system was modeled after the Prussian system. The purpose of that system? To create compliant citizens and factory workers.
In other words - people who sit quietly, not warriors who act. JimP's post is insightful - the majority of our population cannot, without training, even conceive of the warrior's approach, IMO.
All manner of links are available if one uses the Google search string:
origin of public schools in america prussia
although, frankly, most of the links are not of high quality. Unfortunately, better sources also seem to support the general assertions one finds at the links.
CoLawman
12-16-2010, 07:42
I think a hat tip is owed to a Sheep Dog previously ignored by this thread. Mike Jones, a retired police officer "went to the sound of gunfire" and saved the herd. Good Job Mike Jones.
Let's take a look at schools and schooling. Our public education system was modeled after the Prussian system. The purpose of that system? To create compliant citizens and factory workers.
In other words - people who sit quietly, not warriors who act. JimP's post is insightful - the majority of our population cannot, without training, even conceive of the warrior's approach, IMO.
All manner of links are available if one uses the Google search string:
origin of public schools in america prussia
although, frankly, most of the links are not of high quality. Unfortunately, better sources also seem to support the general assertions one finds at the links.
In other words, obedient listeners who do what they are told, and never question authority. I agree with you 100%.
CombatMuffin
12-16-2010, 10:36
Let's take a look at schools and schooling. Our public education system was modeled after the Prussian system. The purpose of that system? To create compliant citizens and factory workers.
In other words - people who sit quietly, not warriors who act. JimP's post is insightful - the majority of our population cannot, without training, even conceive of the warrior's approach, IMO.
All manner of links are available if one uses the Google search string:
origin of public schools in america prussia
although, frankly, most of the links are not of high quality. Unfortunately, better sources also seem to support the general assertions one finds at the links.
I agree. One does not even have to go as far as a gunman scenario. Schools have always been filled with bullies, and usually the amount of people abused by these bullies is much larger than the bullies themselves: but they don't even know how to stand up and act.
...replace the bully with a man carrying a loaded gun, and you have yourself a nightmare.
The Reaper
12-16-2010, 10:50
I agree. One does not even have to go as far as a gunman scenario. Schools have always been filled with bullies, and usually the amount of people abused by these bullies is much larger than the bullies themselves: but they don't even know how to stand up and act.
...replace the bully with a man carrying a loaded gun, and you have yourself a nightmare.
Not if those being bullied also have guns.
TR
aegisnavy
12-16-2010, 17:39
Not if those being bullied also have guns.
The Polite Society. Agreed.
There are certainly perils to prosperity. IIRC there was a post a few months back about a large percent of recruits showing up to basic training who had never been in a fist fight. I'm not sure if it came with the 60's, but unlike near any society in history it seems at some point we stopped believing part of a young man's education should be the ability to defend themselves and loved ones with their fists or the weapons of the day. All those little boys running around with BB guns in the 50's didn't turn out to be psychos.
However, particularly in the urban areas the mindset seems weapon= bad person/nut. Frankly it's beyond weapons, do they still teach basic boxing and wrestling in grade school? A friend's wife recently had a big baby boy, I mentioned he might be a linebacker someday, and she was emphatic "no football for him, it's far too dangerous." Obviously there are all sorts of other things to develop young people, but this coddling mindset IMHO seems at odds with both history and reality.
FWIW - I wasn't there - I'm not sure what I would or would not have done if I had been there because every such instance is situationally a bit different - in retrospect, I'm sure I would have done something - whatever that might have been.
However, YMMV - and so it goes... ;)
Richard :munchin
mojaveman
12-16-2010, 19:29
Ok, a Bronze Star for the gal who assualted the perpetrator with her purse. A Silver Star for the security guard who took the loonie out.
Why the fu*k did those board members just sit there? They should have gotten up and ran. He couldn't have shot all of them. I'd rather die trying to live than just sitting there and looking my assasin in the eyes.
dr. mabuse
12-16-2010, 20:28
*
The situation may have turned bloody if Duke had been rushed - he wasn't, and the only person shot was Duke himself...a fairytale ending.
Coulda-shoulda-woulda...and so it goes...
Richard :munchin
A fairytale ending indeed, but only due to the fact that Duke was possibly the worst shot to every wield a firearm and not because people were spending any time moving out.
I also wasn't there, but I can't, for the life of me, figure out why 5 people facing an armed man think the best thing to do is "hide" behind a 1/4" piece of plywood?
dr. mabuse
12-16-2010, 20:51
*
A fairytale ending indeed, but only due to the fact that Duke was possibly the worst shot to every wield a firearm and not because people were spending any time moving out.
Perhaps he wasn't trying to shoot anybody. ;)
Richard
dr. mabuse
12-16-2010, 20:52
*
Why the fu*k did those board members just sit there? They should have gottten up and ran. He couldn't have shot all of them. I'd rather die trying to live than just sitting there and looking my assasin in the eyes.
Because people forget what a madman can do and much of human behavior is predictable.
aegisnavy
12-16-2010, 22:49
Because people forget what a madman can do and much of human behavior is predictable.
I don't know if a point has ever been more well said.
I don't know if a point has ever been more well said.
I guess it could have ended like this....
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/yt-D4KROpdUkrM/inejiro_asanuma_assassination_footage_1960/
Saturation
12-23-2010, 05:44
So the local news channel organized that famous purse to be auctioned off for charity.
$13,100 AND the purse company matched the winning bid!
http://www.newsherald.com/news/ebay-89540-ginger-nets.html
Ah - capitalism. I wonder how much they could have gotten on e-Bay for the s**t-stained pants of those male board members. :rolleyes:
Richard
Bad Tolz
12-23-2010, 16:17
The news video I saw showed the delayed entry team with the first member in plain clothes, a vest and AR. He was followed by a stick of other officers.
My guess is these officers may not have been "SWAT", rather available officers who responded to an Active Shooter and engaged as soon as they arrived.
The point man didn't have a Kevlar helmet, shield or tactical vest. Typically, active shooters are engaged by Patrol officers, not SWAT.
Animal8526
12-24-2010, 22:30
Perhaps he wasn't trying to shoot anybody. ;)
Richard
Looked like he just sucked to me.
First shot looked like it was intended to hit, but low left strike is common for a shooter who's got moderate to bad recoil anticipation.
Second shot into the floor was a complete surprise to him.
I could very well be wrong, but I think that some of those people are alive because he was shooting at them... ;)