View Full Version : Custer's Last Flag: Culbertson Guidon from Battle of Little Bighorn
The guidon goes on the auction block tomorrow at Sotheby's in NYC. The information provided on its history - its loss and recovery - is interesting.
http://www.sothebys.com/minisite/pdf/N08705/pdf/N08705.pdf
Richard :munchin
Bids starting at 2,000,000 (usd).
mojaveman
12-10-2010, 11:25
Authenticating relics like these is usually a long and interesting story in itself that involves hours and hours of painstaking research.
I once saw a buckskin coat that Custer supposedly wore at the Battle of the Little Bighorn for sale online. :rolleyes:
ZonieDiver
12-10-2010, 11:37
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfkmCNwHNbM
greenberetTFS
12-10-2010, 12:02
I had the opportunity when I was up in that area quite a few years ago to take the tour and see the grave sites and heard the "true" story about his last stand........;)
It too is an interesting story............:rolleyes: After the tour I started heading for my car and met 2 indian guys who told me that on the anniversary they go and "piss on his grave"with quite a few other indian guys...........:eek:
Big Teddy :munchin
After the tour I started heading for my car and met 2 indian guys who told me that on the anniversary they go and "piss on his grave"with quite a few other indian guys...
I don't know, Teddy, that sounds like an old squaw's tale for impressing the gullible 'pale face' tourists to me. ;)
Richard
mojaveman
12-10-2010, 12:30
I had the opportunity when I was up in that area quite a few years ago to take the tour and see the grave sites and heard the "true" story about his last stand........;)
True Teddy,
A Cavalry Troop going up against a Regiment of Indians doesn't make for good odds. Custers 'last stand' was more of a reverse uphill rout. They fought bravely though.
I had the opportunity when I was up in that area quite a few years ago to take the tour and see the grave sites and heard the "true" story about his last stand........;)
It too is an interesting story............:rolleyes: After the tour I started heading for my car and met 2 indian guys who told me that on the anniversary they go and "piss on his grave"with quite a few other indian guys...........:eek:
Big Teddy :munchin
lol Bet that really gets on ol' Yellowhair's nerves. Idiots.
I once saw a story saying that Custer's political enemies had set his command up for annihilation. I have been interested in him as a hunter for many years (avatar) and have a re-creation of his 50-70 Remington rolling block sporting rifle lost at the battle. He is holding the rifle in the photo.
Guess I need to get off my a.. and research this further.
MVP
ApacheIP
12-10-2010, 19:23
There is plenty of material about the battle out there, but a recent book, Last Stand by Nathaniel Philbrick , might be the best of the bunch.
I once saw a story saying that Custer's political enemies had set his command up for annihilation. I have been interested in him as a hunter for many years (avatar) and have a re-creation of his 50-70 Remington rolling block sporting rifle lost at the battle. He is holding the rifle in the photo.
Guess I need to get off my a.. and research this further.
MVP
http://custer.over-blog.com/article-15476437.html
Not sure just how to interpret this.....
other sources say, had Reno returned with the 6 companies he commanded, the battle would have gone the other way.
I'm guessing it may have lasted longer, been more KIA, but in the end, a bunch a white guys in the middle of the prarie still get all the arrows.
219seminole
12-10-2010, 20:03
I'll echo ApacheIP's comments on the Philbrick book. It is the best, most comprehensive BBH book I've come across.
BTW, the drawings by Red Horse (fig 18) in the Sotheby's catalog depict the troopers with sabers; actually, their sabers were packed away for this campaign and they went into the battle as mounted infantry.
This guidon is an interesting piece of history, certainly worth the big bucks. One of Libby Custer's books was titled Follow the Guidon.
I'll echo ApacheIP's comments on the Philbrick book. It is the best, most comprehensive BBH book I've come across.
BTW, the drawings by Red Horse (fig 18) in the Sotheby's catalog depict the troopers with sabers; actually, their sabers were packed away for this campaign and they went into the battle as mounted infantry.
This guidon is an interesting piece of history, certainly worth the big bucks. One of Libby Custer's books was titled Follow the Guidon.
Good to know, I'll add it to the list, thanks.
Wet Dog
ApacheIP
12-10-2010, 20:30
Whether or not Reno had been able to move his troopers into the battle ultimately would not have mattered at all because his capacity to command and maneuver them was seriously hampered by the fact he spent a good bit of the battle rip roaring drunk.
Luckily Benteen had some clarity of thought during the siege.
Benteen disliked Custer greatly and procrastinated on his march to link with Custer. Odlly enough his lazy march to the sound of the guns (and Custer's orders) probably inadvertantly saved the rest of the command.
Wet Dog is right, if the balance of the column had reached Custer there would have been even more dead 7th troopers.
Edit: Thanks to Richard for bringing this up. That guidon is an iconic piece of American history.
The Reaper
12-10-2010, 20:55
IMHO, Custer was an asshole, in addition to being an egomaniac and a publicity hound.
This was possibly a consequence of his Class of 1862 graduating a year early and him being directly promoted from Captain to Brigadier General two years later, at age 23. Custer did have a decent performance at Gettysburg, probably the pinnacle of his career. He made Major General before the end of the War, and then reverted to his permanent rank of Captain again. Ouch, bet that hurt.:D
Unfortunately, his leaders trusted him with men's lives, and he ultimately let them all down.
TR
IMHO, Custer was an asshole, in addition to being an egomaniac and a publicity hound.
This was possibly a consequence of his Class of 1862 graduating a year early and him being directly promoted from Captain to Brigadier General two years later, at age 23. He made Major General before the end of the War, and thren reverted to his permanent rank of Captain again. Ouch, bet that hurt.
Unfortunately, his leaders trusted him with men's lives, and he ultimately let them all down.
TR
Excellent post TR, thanks.
Another lesson to be learned for those in leadership position today,...
"Don't start believing your own press".
ApacheIP
12-10-2010, 21:14
"Don't start believing your own press".
Particularly when you (Custer) and your publicity hound wife are are the ones writing it.
Sold today for $2,210,500.00
Richard :munchin
Sold today for $2,210,500.00
Richard :munchin
WoW!
WarriorDiplomat
10-06-2018, 23:16
Growing up on the western legends being raised in Arizona, Dodge City Ks and Nebraska I searched to see if their was a thread concerning the battle of little bighorn....also being a western history buff this particular battle fascinated me
I did not know that LTC Custer had 2 of his brothers, nephew and his brother in law with him that were also killed
LTC George Custer-
Custer's promotions and ranks including his six brevet [temporary] promotions which were all for gallant and meritorious services at five different battles and one campaign:[41]
Second Lieutenant, 2nd Cavalry: June 24, 1861
First Lieutenant, 5th Cavalry: July 17, 1862
Captain Staff, Additional Aide-De-Camp: June 5, 1862
Brigadier General, U.S. Volunteers: June 29, 1863
Brevet Major, July 3, 1863 (Battle of Gettysburg, Pennsylvania)
Captain, 5th Cavalry: May 8, 1864
Brevet Lieutenant Colonel: May 11, 1864 (Battle of Yellow Tavern - Combat at Meadow)
Brevet Colonel: September 19, 1864 (Battle of Winchester, Virginia)
Brevet Major General, U.S. Volunteers: October 19, 1864 (Battle of Winchester and Fisher's Hill, Virginia)
Brevet Brigadier General, U.S. Army, March 13, 1865 (Battle of Five Forks, Virginia)
Brevet Major General, U.S. Army: March 13, 1865 (The campaign ending in the surrender of the Army of Northern Virginia)
Major General, U.S. Volunteers: April 15, 1865
Mustered out of Volunteer Service: February 1, 1866
Lieutenant Colonel, 7th Cavalry: July 28, 1866 (killed at the Battle of the Little Bighorn, June 25, 1876)
All three died with Custer
CPT Thomas Custer- 2x MOH recipient Brevet to LTC
CIV Boston Custer-
Bro in law- 1LT James Calhoun
The build up was Sitting Bull put out messages to the Sioux and Cheyenne nations to join him in Montana to live free as Indians and to stand and battle with his people to keep the White man from taking their lands....the land in question was/is the Black Hills in which Gold had been discovered and thus settlers started to move into the area though the land had been promised to the nations and would remain free according to Washington D.C. and had been assigned agents.....as settlers began to live and mine animosity started to rear its head with Natives defending their land and attacking the invading settlers and miners. The Cavalry were forced to come to the rescue and protect the illegal settlers because they were citizens.
There was information given to the Army that the Indians were leaving their assigned reservations and going North to join with Sitting Bull who had had a vision of the battle.....he told the Indians it was better to accept a good death than to live as slaves to the white man ways. Custer was given the information of the uprising and was ordered to put it down and push then natives back to their respective reservations. Custer was offered reinforcements but felt he did not need them and in some opinions wanted to claim all the glory from the battle since he had a newspaper man with him who was juicing up his exploits for a future run for POTUS.
It is key to understand that Custer had 100 battles under his belt by this time between the Civil War and the Indian Wars and had never had the Indians stand and fight when attacked hence the difficulty to getting them onto reservations the Natives were masters of ambushes and guerilla warfare not battles....
He had made several mistakes by sending two of his Commanders CPT Benteen and MAJ Reno's Battalions in two different directions to surround the Natives without having seen the layout of the camp
-He rode his troops into the ground for 3 days with little sleep
-Upon arriving Custer thought that the Indians must have seen him and his scouts and decided they needed to attack ASAP before the Indians could flee north....he was advised at the fatigue of his unit and was recommended to rest that night and attack the next day
-Custer split his 700+ man force 3 ways with single shot rifles prior to knowing what he was up against he kept 5 companies C, E, F, I, L
-He had no recon of the enemy forces and did not believe what he was told and made a deadly assumption when he finally did see the size of the forces he turned white as a ghost according to his surviving Indian scout who he had sent away when he knew he would die....
-Custer sent a runner with a message to find Benteen telling him to come quick and bring his packs of extra ammunition
-Sitting Bull lead the children and woman North out of the camp to safety before/during the battle which Custer saw and he assumed they were on the run
-Custer had sent MAJ Reno his XO to attack the encampment and he was expected to reinforce Reno which did not happen due to his deciding to follow the Sitting Bull exodus
-MAJ Reno ran into a buzzsaw of attacking warriors and lost 1/3 of his force within minutes forcing him to withdraw and set up a defensive formation...he had also made the mistake of dismounting his troops into a skirmish line in which every 4th soldier was taken out of the fight to hold the horse a safe distance away
-CPT Benteens 3 companies D, H, K came upon MAJ Reno 3 companies A, G, M who begged him to reinforce him as they were still fighting
-The 12th Company B was with CPT McDougal and got to the battles late due to the slow pack train they were escorting
-MAJ Reno's man later stated that they could hear the battle that Custer was in from their position and were struck by CPT Benteens indifference to Custers request and took his time but eventually made the attempt to reinforce him however was pushed back and ended up rejoining Reno.
-When the Warriors saw Custer going for the woman and children the Indians attacked Custer and his men leaving them in shock at which point Custer, and 1LT James Calhoun were killed....CPT Myles Keogh tried to escape and reposition in which his unit was killed all except his horse Comanche...
-The Indians that participated in the battle that killed Custer say the battle lasted ass long as it takes a hungry man to eat dinner or about a half hour
-Forensics of the battlefield shows that where Custer died was not the end his men had panicked eventually and tried to flee in a running gun fight downhill towards the creek the evidence shows that the Native retelling of the battle are the most accurate.
What is interesting is that Natives gathered every year after that battle to celebrate Sitting Bulls victory over the white man invading their land...the erection of symbols of the Native warriors has seemed to heal the division according to Park Rangers. Custer had apparently been offered the used of Gatlin guns and he declined.
Model 1873 Springfield .45-55 light carbine version required a single round loaded at a time the Indians fought with primitive weapons, smooth bore and Henry lever action to name a few. Though the Cavalry weapons had superior range and excellent knockdown power the weapons become ineffective once the Indians closed the distance and fought close battle warfare in which the lever actions were superior as far as rifles.
I love western history as I feel moving west was when America really separate itself from its European roots and became its own. There is more details to this story for later additions concerning the post battle inquiries and accounts
Very informative post WD, thanks for that.
When I was with 5th, we went to Helena Montana for winter tng. The we had a boondoggle down to the battlefield...wow, very sobering. Took a damn long time to get there also from Helena :O
It was worth it though. It was quite a spread out battle, for amount of men and all
Badger52
10-07-2018, 04:51
Model 1873 Springfield .45-55 light carbine version required a single round loaded at a time the Indians fought with primitive weapons, smooth bore and Henry lever action to name a few. Though the Cavalry weapons had superior range and excellent knockdown power the weapons become ineffective once the Indians closed the distance and fought close battle warfare in which the lever actions were superior as far as rifles.
Thanks for all this; interesting to be sure. I recall a program that did some forensics plotting individual troopers' locations using found shell-casings & concluding in certain instances that stuck cartridges were also a malfunction issue that Murphy brought to the battlefield.
Custer's rash behavior (no recon, no flank security, adamantly refusing to heed counsel) in some Civil War battles was a portent of things to come.
WarriorDiplomat
10-07-2018, 10:03
Very informative post WD, thanks for that.
When I was with 5th, we went to Helena Montana for winter tng. The we had a boondoggle down to the battlefield...wow, very sobering. Took a damn long time to get there also from Helena :O
It was worth it though. It was quite a spread out battle, for amount of men and all
Certainly sobering place to be
SouthernDZ
10-07-2018, 10:34
Behind our quarters on Fort Leavenworth, where there's now a parking lot, used to stand a small building where Custer was court martialed for AWOL and conduct prejudicial to good order and military discipline in 1867. I never heard of this until I researched the post; a great deal of history there, all of it sad.
BTW, he was found guilty of five of 11 charges and suspended from rank and command for one year with forfeit of pay. a decade later.....
WarriorDiplomat
10-07-2018, 13:03
Behind our quarters on Fort Leavenworth, where there's now a parking lot, used to stand a small building where Custer was court martialed for AWOL and conduct prejudicial to good order and military discipline in 1867. I never heard of this until I researched the post; a great deal of history there, all of it sad.
BTW, he was found guilty of five of 11 charges and suspended from rank and command for one year with forfeit of pay. a decade later.....
Yep the public image and the reality of the type of man he really was are two separate animals...it was his poor decisions and hunger for glory that got those men killed not to mention all the battles previous
twistedsquid
10-07-2018, 13:16
Narcissitic and reckless.
WarriorDiplomat
10-08-2018, 23:46
Narcissitic and reckless.
My thoughts exactly it certainly seems that way...phsychologist seem to agree that most military leaders, corporate types and politicians are to some extent narcissistic sociopaths....at least he died with his men Chesty Puller sent men to their death whether he was with them or not, as did many legendary GO's