View Full Version : Eye dominance and CQB training
Adam White
08-18-2004, 19:18
A question for the training gurus here:
My younger brother shoots rifle left handed but pistol right handed. This is because when he was first taught to shoot rifle - from a competitive smallbore aspect – his coach started him with his dominant eye.
At the police academy, he was right handed, so they had him just shoot pistol right handed. He says he uses his left eye, though.
He is now training with his popo department’s SWAT team, and is having issues with transition drills (rifle interfering with holster), and also being the only lefty.
Would you recommend he train to primarily shoot rifle right handed – and ignore eye dominance. He IS naturally right handed – is the dexterity more important than the precision? After all, he isn’t training for a high power match. In terms of dexterity, he feels equally comfortable shouldering on either side – since he is used to habitually shooting lefty yet is naturally a righty. He does say, though, that he can keep both eyes open using his dominant eye, but has to close his left eye if he shoulder his rifle right handed.
What is more important – being geared equally and avoiding the headache of being different in training – or sticking with the dominant eye? With the emphasis so much on optics – is eye dominance still considered important? Has it EVER been considered more important than manual dexterity from a CQB, dynamic shooting standpoint?
Any tips and tricks for transitioning from a left handed slung carbine to a right handed holstered pistol?
I would appreciate any info, experience you can offer. Thanks.
-fixed typo-
Smokin Joe
08-18-2004, 19:38
Adam,
We run into this all the time in my departement (people being cross eye dominant). I personally believe and teach the person to whatever they are most comfortable doing. However I have found that it is easiest for people to use whichever side is their dominant eye side. I.E. left eye dominant. Shoot using your left hand and left shoulder or vise versa. No matter which handed they are. You can train yourself to be as effecitent with your weak side as you are with your strong side. I have seen it first hand.
Just my .02 cents
Team Sergeant
08-18-2004, 19:51
I am right handed and left eye dominant.
I have always shot with my right eye, with iron sights or optics.
With todays optics there is no effect as far as eye dominance is concerned.
HTH
TS
Adam White
08-18-2004, 20:05
Wow - thanks for the quick responses!
I guess it may come down to what he is most comfortable with - and now he is torn between the comforts of having gear configured the same way as everyone else and in the direction the trainers keep referring - and the comforts of shouldering a weapon on the side is is most used to.
TS - before the dawn of modern optics, how did you resolve your cross dominance issue? Did you just close one eye as you acquired your sights?
In the event that the kid decides to stick with the left hand - does anyone have any sugestion for handling the pistol tranistion issue? Is there a way to work a tac sling where he could drop the weapon along his left side, keeping his holster side free of obstruction?
Team Sergeant
08-18-2004, 20:10
Originally posted by Adam White
TS - before the dawn of modern optics, how did you resolve your cross dominance issue? Did you just close one eye as you acquired your sights?
It was never really an issue for me, adapt and overcome. Yes, I'd close my left eye (or almost close).
TS
Adam White
08-18-2004, 20:12
Originally posted by Smokin Joe
Adam,
... You can train yourself to be as effecitent with your weak side as you are with your strong side. I have seen it first hand.
Just my .02 cents
That I, too, have seen first hand - and is the case with the lil' bro. I have a pretty deep and credentialed background in the competitive paper shooting world. I would not claim, however, to know a thing about how that might transfer over to the shorter ranges, group tactics, and faster shooting of you ninja types.
FWIW, he is definitely good with the rifle left handed - just nowhere near as good as his older brother. :lifter
Smokin Joe
08-18-2004, 21:32
Originally posted by Adam White
In the event that the kid decides to stick with the left hand - does anyone have any sugestion for handling the pistol tranistion issue? Is there a way to work a tac sling where he could drop the weapon along his left side, keeping his holster side free of obstruction?
What type of long guns are they using?
What type of slings are they using?
Possibly a sling point would work for him?
I'm left handed and left eye dominant so I shoot left handed but I can't use a 3 point sling b/c it covers the ejection port on my AR. I use a single point sling plate by Duane Dieter (GG&G also makes good ones) and a Blackhawk Ind. sling.
I have also seen guys attach there long guns at the buttstock to their web gear on their strong side. This would allow him to drop his weapon have it fall to the left side and leave his right side open for draw.
---I personally don't like this because it attaches the weapon to your strong side and it does not allow for easy transition of your long gun to your weak side.
Just my .02 cents.
NousDefionsDoc
08-18-2004, 21:39
Had a guy like this last class. Tell him to try just letting the primary hang in front and shoot around it. It worked for the guy the class after we experimented quite a bit.
I'm right hand left eye too.
I shoot rifle right handed and use my right eye.
But I shoot pistol right handed and use my left eye. It is easy to put the pistol in front of me and line it up with my left eye.
Sacamuelas
08-19-2004, 10:03
I am a right handed shooter but left eye dominant also. I have always used my left eye when shooting pistols but with both eyes fully open. With rifles, I have always done as the TS describes and used my right eye and squinted but not closed my left eye.
Team Sergeant, what are your thoughts on shooting pistols left eye dominant /right handed? What are the side effects (problems inherant in doing so)?
Sac:
I was the same way, to alleviate the problem. I brought a pair of cheap shooting glasses and colored-out the left lense with a black sharpee.
I wore those glasss for awhile. I'm right eye dominant now.
When transitioning from the rifle to the pistol...I would have two front-sight pics.
Sacamuelas
08-19-2004, 10:59
Thanks Guy...:cool:
Originally posted by Guy
Sac:
I was the same way, to alleviate the problem. I brought a pair of cheap shooting glasses and colored-out the left lense with a black sharpee.
I wore those glasss for awhile. I'm right eye dominant now.
When transitioning from the rifle to the pistol...I would have two front-sight pics.
Yep, same here.....but I did not use Guy's scientific method of training the left eye; although it probably would have worked better than my method.
I took the "easy" route and closed mine all the time when shooting IPSC. It took a while, but you can train your right eye to "take over" the sight picture.
longrange1947
08-19-2004, 17:58
You will never be as good shooting cross dominate as you will be if you take the time to shoot with your normal dominate eye. We used to force the guys to shoot with thier dominate eye and it worked very well. After the initial "I don't want to", they found themselves to be more comfortable and relaxed shooting.
I would recommend that he stops shooting right handed with left eye and train for just a bit left handed and left eyed. I think his ability will go up after the initial shock is over with and he learns to relax shooting with his left hand. He will learn to point more naturally with the left hand and during barrier shooting he willnot have to expose half of his body on both sides of the body due to his crossing of slhooting left eye, but right handed. remember he is left eyed due to the fact that his right hemisphere is dominate, crossing it will cause some problems beyond his shooting during move and shoot time.
My thoughts and his decision. Let the fun begin! :munchin
LR47:
I'm talking about a "two" carry weapon system, in which we use.
Trying to get an individual who is right hand/left eye dominate to switch to shooting left handed is damn near impossible...that's like telling a person who writes with his left hand he should write with his right hand, they just will not do it.
As far "barriers" I can counter that argument by just changing sides...what happens when a left handed shooter has to shoot around the right side of a barrier?
Distance plays a major factor in shooting with one eye -vs- both eyes being open.:munchin
longrange1947
08-20-2004, 05:09
Guy - I fully understand what scenerio you are talking about. I still say switch him, we have done it a number of times and used to be standard practice when shooting.
Having a shooter use his right hand to shoot and left eye to aim with causes problems, or vice versa. It is not the same as writing as the body recognizes that the hand shooting is natural for the eye that he is using for shooting. It is better all around to hold left handed and shoot left eyed then hold right handed and shoot left eyed. My bet is that after only a few days the shooter will be better at it and his training is less than trying to train a new dominate eye, or chnging his equipment around to force fit a situation. He already shoots left handed long gun, and he only shoots right handed becasue he was forced to shoot cross dominate during prior training.
A far as the barrier, any way ou go you must expose more body as you are exposing more head to see with the left eye as you shoot around the right side of the barrier, and most will expose more body due to this situation.
My thoughts, my opinion, my two cents.
As far as my experience, I first started doing take downs in the 70s. I have been both knuckle dragger and long gunner. :)
Mixing apple and oranges here.
You mean to tell me that...
"It's easier to train the body than the mind"?
I'm talking about a two weapon system and transitioning from the long to the short, acquiring the front sight with a good sight pic.
Throw in manipulation of the weapons system "tap, rack bang/squeeze" and this can be accomplished using your weak hand...proficiently?
Try teaching what you said to foreign students.
BTW...I'm very much aware of your background.;)
Originally posted by Guy
As far "barriers" I can counter that argument by just changing sides...what happens when a left handed shooter has to shoot around the right side of a barrier?
How do you (general you, not just Guy) feel about training weak hand for this sort of thing? It's faster to shoot dominant hand but possibly more dangerous as you'll expose more of yourself.
Better to train to shoot with both hands and lose a little speed in the transition or to just shoot dominant hand and be a little more exposed?
Regards
Back-up from the barrier.
As far as training with the weak hand/side...not to many people do it (that I know of). You may hear people talk about it, how many do you see doing it?
Master the basics first, then move on.
Smokin Joe
08-20-2004, 13:51
When I was first taught how to shoot by my father. He taught me to be able to shoot either hand either eye or either shoulder either eye.
I am left handed and left eye dominant. I spend probably 3/4 of my training time shooting this way. The other 1/4 I mix up using either hand/shoulder and either eye.
The reason for this is if I get injured in either my dominant hand or eye I can still fight effectively with my weak hand or eye. The last thing I want to do is learn how to shoot with my weak side or eye in the middle of a gun fight.
NousDefionsDoc
08-20-2004, 14:22
The only reason I will shoot weak hand is if I'm wounded in my strong arm. There are many ways to get around the other reasons.
Jack Moroney (RIP)
08-20-2004, 14:28
Originally posted by Guy
Back-up from the barrier.
As far as training with the weak hand/side...not to many people do it (that I know of). You may hear people talk about it, how many do you see doing it?
Master the basics first, then move on.
Had some folks call me on that once. A lot of beer was bought that day and not by me.:D
Jack Moroney
Originally posted by Jack Moroney
Had some folks call me on that once. A lot of beer was bought that day and not by me.:D
Jack Moroney
People will not do it unless they have fired a bunch of rounds. We fired so many rounds at one time the pistol over-heated, we had to go put on gloves.
We had one guy shooting a semi-auto M4 like it was a machinegun. I didn't think you could squeeze the trigger that fast!
Jack Moroney (RIP)
08-21-2004, 07:02
Originally posted by Guy
People will not do it unless they have fired a bunch of rounds.
Well I do have to admit that we had an average of 20K rounds per individual that we put downrange over the period of a year with some folks doing a lot more than that. We were swapping out the slides from the frigging berretta because they were developing cracks around every 2K rounds or so. The only reason I took them on was that I had busted my thumb on my right hand and knew we had a qualification coming up and had put out that if you didn't nail the rediculous pistol qualification that the Army required then you didn't belong in the unit. So I spent some time working with my off hand so I wouldn't have to eat my words. Didn't want to be one of those alligator mouth officers with a tadpole asshole.:D
Jack Moroney