Running shoe's

[chance]

I need some advice on running shoes, The pair I have now are over a year old and are starting to give me leg trouble because of it.
So after searching on here I really didn't find any good answers, also can you tell me where to order said shoes that will ship to an APO? Heres a real quick run down of my foot to help with any advice you guys might have. They're 10.5-11.0 wide my arches are normal per Doc. Also I don't want to get the five finger shoes so they're out of the question. :lifter

Thanks Guys

[BigJimCalhoun]

Here is a start....

New Balance makes shoes in wide. I do not use them myself however. I seem to do well with Nike Pegasus.

This place ships to APO

http://www.joesnewbalanceoutlet.com/cat_mens_shoes.htm
FREE SHIPPING ON ALL ORDERS
thru November 11

Free Shipping on all orders is valid through November 11, 2010 11:59 PM ET.
Free shipping applies to UPS Ground Shipping to the 48 Continental United States.
Free shipping applies to USPS Priority Mail to AK, HI, PO boxes, U.S Postal Territories, and APO/FPO addresses.

[Longstreet]

Can you run barefoot?

My GF who is a physio recently went to a seminar and has learned that barefoot running or almost barefoot (the finger shoes or wetsock type shoes) running is to be the next trend with running footwear. There is some compelling evidence to support this, but I cannot explain more due to time. I will return later and expand on this topic.

jaYson

[Masochist]

For starters, purchase a quality shoe and not something off the discount rack. I'm not necessarily saying the new $200 astronaut-tested running shoes are better than an $80 pair of Saucony or New Balance, but I can definitely tell you that $80 pair is better than the $30 pair you find at Pay Less. You get what you pay for, and that investment will pay off when your feet hit the trails.

How long ago did a doc tell you you had normal arches? If it's been a while, or you've been rucking a lot, you may find your arches aren't exactly what you think they are. The older I get and the more mileage I put on my feet, I notice they become more troll-like every year. Since you're overseas and probably not down the road from a podiatrist or running shoe store, try the wet test (Runner's World Wet Test (http://www.runnersworld.com/article/0,7120,s6-240-319-326-7152-0,00.html)).

Another consideration you might want to keep in mind is where you'll be running. Will you be on soft sand, asphalt or the rocky terrain of Afghan-land? That will make the difference between getting Vibram Five-Fingers (toe shoes) vs. a rugged trail shoe.

One last note. If you'll be doing a lot of running, and can afford it, try to have two pairs of running shoes in rotation like you would boots. It gives them more time to dry out, return to form, etc. Some online sites that (I believe) ship to APOs and can hopefully get you good shoes for cheap are below. Hope this helps:

- Eastbay (check out their outlet for discounts): http://www.eastbay.com
- Oconus.com (not a shoe store, but a list of companies that ship overseas): http://www.oconus.com/main/shoes.asp

[Wilesthing]

www.runningwarehouse.com is really good. They allow free returns and even include prepaid return labels in case you don't like them.

Ideally you would go to a knowledgeable running specialty store to get properly analyzed and fitted and then in the future order online, but that doesn't sound feasible right now. Lots of brands come in wide sizes, and some brands actually run wider than others in their standard sizing. For example I'm a wide in Asics shoes but Nike's Structure Triax fits me perfectly in the standard width, which kind of highlights the need to be fitted by someone at a specialty store. At least with Running Warehouse's return policy you can take your best guess and mail them back for free if you need to exchange them.

[Longstreet]

Can you run barefoot?

My GF who is a physio recently went to a seminar and has learned that barefoot running or almost barefoot (the finger shoes or wetsock type shoes) running is to be the next trend with running footwear. There is some compelling evidence to support this, but I cannot explain more due to time. I will return later and expand on this topic.

jaYson

Sorry for the delay. As I was saying, there is supporting evidence to suggest that the best shoes for running are the ones with less padding. So yes, barefoot or shoes that supply only a limited sole (track shoes or even wetsocks) may be the way of the future when running. The reason for this is that by buying a shoe that corrects a particular problem, it often creates a new problem somewhere else in the body. So while a pair of New Balances may cure your foot problem, they may also create a new problem in your knee. My GF wears orthotics and she is convinced that given proper training and time, her feet will adapt and she will be leaving her orthotics and Sauconys behind. To add to this, when our child is born, he/she will not be wearing the usual baby shoes, but rather wetsocks to help strengthen his/her feet.

Do not be surprised if you do not see this idea catching on quickly with shoe manufactuers though. The average marathon runner replaces his/her shoes every 300-350 miles; running barefoot is free. Using barefoot shoes is considerably cheaper and they do not need to be replaced as often. And of course the orthotic manufacturers do not want to embrace this idea either.

Who would have thought that in 2010, your old Chuck Taylor's would be the running shoes of choice?

If you have any questions, please let me know and I will speak to my GF.

jaYson

[Masochist]

To add to this, when our child is born, he/she will not be wearing the usual baby shoes, but rather wetsocks to help strengthen his/her feet.

They make them that small? Amazing.

Do not be surprised if you do not see this idea catching on quickly with shoe manufactuers though.

It already has to some degree with the Nike Free and such. I think it will be going much farther in the future.

Very good points, but a big thing to keep in mind is running surface (especially since the originator of this thread most likely isn't running on a cushy synthetic track currently). Just as running on asphalt 24/7 (regardless of shoe type) will eventually cause shin and knee injury, running with minimal padding over rugged terrain could lead to severe injury, especially if starting out too fast. Your soft feet aren't as protected, and your tendons haven't adapted from a lifetime of running in shoes to running without. The barefoot thing might be something to try once you're back in the states, but while deployed I wouldn't be starting a completely new program with high potential for injury (if not done properly). My two cents ...

[craigepo]

During the trail run last week, I saw 4-5 people complete the run in the Vibram five-toe shoe/slippers/whatever the hell they are called. Amazingly stupid looking. But, the more runners I talk to, the more I'm convinced that landing on one's heel while jogging is very unhealthy.

I've said it before, but if you haven't read the book "Born to Run", go get a copy. It will totally change the way you think about running.

[99meters]

To add to this, when our child is born, he/she will not be wearing the usual baby shoes, but rather wetsocks to help strengthen his/her feet. jaYson

When your kid is born let him/her spend as much time crawling as possible.... does great things for upper/lower limb coordination down the road. If you must do something for the feet, I would go with kisses and tickles.

Barefoot running does strengthen the foot. For years track & field coaches would have athletes perform a number of drills barefoot during warm-up or cool-downs to strenghten the feet. I did it when I was coaching and saw a reduction in soft-tissue injuries with my athletes. However, you don't need to do a 5 mile run barefooted to reap the benifits.
You go running to improve fitness not strengthen your feet. Don't fall for every fad (a few years back it was pose running). Like I said the benifits could be had with a few simple barefooted drills before or after your run.

[PedOncoDoc]

When your kid is born let him/her spend as much time crawling as possible.... does great things for upper/lower limb coordination down the road. If you must do something for the feet, I would go with kisses and tickles.

I agree with the above - my children did not wear shoes until about 18 months of age and they had already mastered walking - then they only wore shoes outside the house when it was cold or going to restaurants/public places. I believe it allows for normal bone maturation and alignment to occur, whereas placing them in shoes (especially hard-soled shoes) does not allow for the normal development/strengthening/etc.

[Masochist]

Like I said the benifits could be had with a few simple barefooted drills before or after your run.

As a kid (read: anything before age 12), I used to do most of my playing outside in bare feet. A gravel driveway and a grassy yard were my playground. If I left my front yard, say to roam in the woods or ride bikes, I would put on shoes. I attribute my feet's resiliency to growing up like this. No real scientific backing, just opinion based on knowing my body from when I was young and now that I'm getting older.

When I was at the Infantry School this summer, I started to see more and more people running around post with the Vibram Five-Fingers. Those that I talked to had a lot of good things to say about them. However, their number one caveat was start low (mileage) and slow, even if you're a marathon runner. Just like any new exercise, develop a good base and work your way up from there.

[Buffalobob]

Shoes are designed for feet and people. Stability shoes for the pronators. Heavy cushioned shoes for the 190+ pound muscle guys, light flimsy shoes for the 90 pound weaklings. Slip lasted or board lasted. Once we get through the type of shoe then you have to deal with fit. With narrow heel and splayed toes you might not actually need a wide shoe but just need a round toe box. Lots of Nike's have narrow heels and toe boxes but slip lasted shoes often have more room in the toes for some reason. A wide shoe that has a wide heel that you don't need will flop around and make you run like Ronald McDonald.

You have problems coming and going. A shoe is good for about 6 months use or 500 miles which ever come first and then needs to be replaced as a running shoe ( still good for going to the Safeway). A new shoe needs to be used carefully and moderately until your body adjusts to it - about two weeks of running every other day in it. You can tear all of your tendons to spaghetti with a new shoe.

Once you find a shoe that really suits you then buy three or four pairs because they will discontinue any shoe that they discover is really a good shoe for running.

You can look at the wear on the soles of your current shoes and tell lots of things about what kind of shoe you actually need.

[Buffalobob]

Just to be a little more help. Go to Runners World as Masochist said and do the wet test and then hit the tab that says foot diagnostics and it will explain how to examine your shoes for wear.

Then you can go to

http://www.roadrunnersports.com/

And use "Shoe dog" to find the models that may work. I use "may" because they still have to fit your particular foot. I know from decades of running what kind of shoe I need and the Shoe Dog actually returned the shoe I currently use. I was truly amazed.

[99meters]

But, the more runners I talk to, the more I'm convinced that landing on one's heel while jogging is very unhealthy.


Is this just a technique thing? or are you saying that most running shoes force a heel first foot strike?

[Quixote]

Is this just a technique thing? or are you saying that most running shoes force a heel first foot strike?

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but here's the gist of it - Adding all of that padding under the heel to "cushion" your step doesn't do anything to actually reduce the amount of impact your body feels. All it does is reduce the sensory input of your foot (which is one of the most sensitive places on the human body) to the point where you can and do land on the extremely bony and naturally hard heel due to the increased elevation.

The arch of the foot is a tremendous shock absorber. A forefoot strike allows the impact to travel up the leg allowing you to use your naturally elastic tendons and ligaments. Traditional running shoes with a built up heel and a restrictive shape ruin that action. That, the theory is, is the source of the vast majority of running injuries that plague us in our modern times.

Check out Chi Running or the Pose method for more information on foot strike, and I also highly recommend Born to Run. There's an interesting statistic in there, the more expensive a shoe is, the more likely you are to be injured. A direct correlation. Naturally, that doesn't prove causation in and of itself, but it's something to think about.

Speaking anecdotally, a few years ago I was tremendously out of shape, around 270 lb. When I decided to work it off, I integrated running, despite the protestations of some cross country studs that were friends of mine. They insisted that with that much weight on my body I would be dooming myself to countless joint injuries. Luckily, I had read something about foot striking and the Pose Method. Long story short, I've been running ever since and I have yet to injure myself, despite the amount of weight I was chucking around each step.

[craigepo]

I agree with Quixote. My understanding is that landing on your heel transmits all of your shock back up your leg, to your knee and hip joints. Ergo, knee and hip replacement surgery when you get older.

I have run a few races with Kenyans in the pack (and no, I didn't finish anywhere close to those fast SOB's). Watching them run is kind of interesting. Initially, they grow up barefooted, and don't wear shoes until approximately 17 years of age. When they run, their forward stride doesn't extend much past their hips. But, their "back kick" is crazy long. Whatever they are doing, it works. Dudes are fast and can run forever. A Kenyan won the 25k trail run I was in a couple of weeks ago. He walked up the hills(which were long and steep) and still finished with a 7:21 pace(did I mention were forded a river 8 times, jumped logs over the trails, and were on all fours at certain points in the race?)

I started having hip pain a couple of years ago. Since then, I have quit running asphalt, switched from jogging shoes to trail shoes(which have a much thinner sole and flatter heel), and have shortened my forward stride. I'm a little slower, but have no pain, and my distance has increased dramatically.

[Longstreet]

My understanding is that landing on your heel transmits all of your shock back up your leg, to your knee and hip joints. Ergo, knee and hip replacement surgery when you get older.

This is what my GF said after her running seminar. The problem with modern running shoes is that they promote heel to toe steps which causes problems later on. Running barefoot or with minimal cushioning prevents this. And as mentioned earlier it is not something that is to be done full on right away. The runner must gradually start this method of running over a period of time. Simply deciding to run barefoot and then run 10km will be one hell of a sore experience. And to the best of my knowledge, one does not need to be only restricted to running on soft surfaces although I would imagine it would be preferred.

The biggest problem she told me that the instructor saw with this style of running is climate. Up here in Canada, running barefoot is fine for the summer and not so much a good idea for the winter.

When your kid is born let him/her spend as much time crawling as possible.... does great things for upper/lower limb coordination down the road.
Of course! To clarify myself, our child will wear wetsocks when he/she actually starts walking.

It already has to some degree with the Nike Free and such. I think it will be going much farther in the future.

You are right about the Nike Free and even track sprinting shoes can be worn too. My GF simply said that many running shoe manufacturers are hesitant about this style of running as the shoes are less expensive and they tend wear our less quickly.

Again if anyone has any questions about this, let me know and I can ask her. As a physio, she can answer questions in much greater depth than I can.

[chance]

Thank you very much for all the advice. And craigepo as soon as I get a chance I'm going to order the book "Born to Run".
Once again Guys thanks for all the advice.

[Razor]

Since I don't see the Army changing APFT run time standards any time soon, I hope you can keep up your race pace while running barefoot.

[99meters]

I agree with Quixote. My understanding is that landing on your heel transmits all of your shock back up your leg, to your knee and hip joints. Ergo, knee and hip replacement surgery when you get older.


I have run a few races with Kenyans in the pack (and no, I didn't finish anywhere close to those fast SOB's). Watching them run is kind of interesting. Initially, they grow up barefooted, and don't wear shoes until approximately 17 years of age. When they run, their forward stride doesn't extend much past their hips. But, their "back kick" is crazy long. Whatever they are doing, it works.

Initial contact of the foot with the ground is made on the outside edge. The weight of the body is then supported at a point which varies with the runner's speed.
There is no point in the stride cycle where a runner should be landing heel first. The slower the pace the flatter the contact* should be. As the pace increases (like up to sprinting) the higher up the forefoot contact* is made.
For this discussion contact = support phase of stride.
(phases of stride: support, drive, recovery)
Craigepo Sir, there is no such thing as a foward stride. That is called overstriding.
Stride length is the distance the center of gravity travels between each foot contact. It is the resultant of momentum plus net impluse, which is given to the mass. It is best increased by applying force down and backwards, not reaching(foward stride).
hth


9

[GratefulCitizen]

My old man has been running competitively for over 50 years.
He has also coached many athletes over the years.

His knees and hips are in still in outstanding shape.
Last year, at age 65, he ran a 5000m in 19min 20 sec.

He is not a small man, and typically weighs ~170lbs when competing.

His recommendation for running shoes: get running-training shoes, not racing shoes, not cross-training shoes, and not barefoot.
He thinks the advances in running shoes over the past half-century have been a great benefit.

Concerning barefoot running: he recommends doing this as an occasional, supplementary activity on safe grassy areas.
(Make sure there's no broken glass, etc.)

He attributes much of his own longevity to careful choice in running surfaces.
-Never train on concrete. Ever.
-Severely limit training on asphalt.
-Do the majority of your training on dirt or grass.
-All-weather tracks are a better option than asphalt, if the choice is forced.
-Running on sand is a good option, but should be ramped up very gradually.

He also buys 2 pairs of training shoes and alternates their use.
The shoe material "recovers" more with additional down time.

HTH.

[Fatum Me Ducat]

Since I don't see the Army changing APFT run time standards any time soon, I hope you can keep up your race pace while running barefoot.

About VFF"S
"In the meantime, they’ve been barred from use in the Army’s PT test. According to the U.S. Army Physical Fitness School, the shoes may provide too much of an advantage. “The Army Physical Fitness Test standards were developed wearing ‘traditional’ running shoes. The Vibram shoes ... may be determined to offer an unfair advantage during testing,” Army spokesman Paul Boyce said."

http://www.armytimes.com/offduty/health/mil-offduty_toeshoes_101110/

Guess the army, with no evidence, is going to ban them saying that they make me too fast... :rolleyes: I love how they don't say why they think it would be an advantage just that it is :confused:

As for me, i switched to vff's when i started having chronic hip pain due to bursitis in both hips. I really started upping my mileage and the pain was becoming unbearable. After hip injections didn't really work, I tried them out. I was a textbook pronating, heelstriker. So, the vffs forced me to shorten my stride and run with a mid-foot strike. Hip pain gone. I also do my traditional weight lifting in them as well as kettle bell workouts. I'll never go back. The only thing i hate about them is how i feel like a kool-aid drinking, cross-fit hippy running around Tacoma:D. The price is worth it though.
*You don't necessarily need to go with five fingers. There are other minimalist shoes that look more traditional but will still force the same gait corrections.

http://birthdayshoes.com/
there's some good info for those wanting to take the plunge into minimalist running

[kawika]

Since I don't see the Army changing APFT run time standards any time soon, I hope you can keep up your race pace while running barefoot.

Just did 400 meter intervals with the team. Beat everyone with 80 percent(ran a 100 percent 400 and took 80 percent of that) of 1:13 barefoot for 5 repitions. Pretty stupid because it was wet outside and the ground was freezing and Ihurt my foot, but hey i rarely bring shoes to work anymore.

I have a track background. Just started doing the whole barefoot running thing. I think its a good idea if you know what you are doing. The biomechanics are completely different and if you have run in racing flats or sprint shoes then you know what im talking about.

That being said 99 percent of people I see running around bragg arent doing it correctly. I usually see people with 5 fingers or even worse 5 fingers/nike frees on treadmills pounding away like an elephant and that make me cringe. I really wish the whole 5 finger fad would go away. Seeing people doing olympic lifting with 5 fingers is even worse(dynamic jumping/weight bearing exercises). If your really gonna do it, running truly barefoot will help as the VFF's can hide alot of the pain. A big thing I found when I first started using them was you run ALOT slower for awhile. I made the transition when I was consistently running 6:30's for my 75-85 percent runs. The first few months its a struggle to run any faster than 8 per mile for any length of time. So if you have joint problems etc, the lower speed with effective biomechanics is what I beileve helps alot of people out. Usually when you run slower than 8 minutes per mile there seems to be more of a tendency to not midfoot strike.


And hes right, for speed work you need racing flats. I use inova 8's currently and thats a really good alternative and alot smarter than barefoot running. You don't see anyone running professionally using POSE running and there is a reason for that, despite what those elitest pricks want you to think. I'll be the first to admit I don't have the answers or else id be a professional runner(half of them are clueless but naturally gifted). But the POSE running crowd reminds me of the military athelete/MA crowd.....if your not doing our program your an idiot.

But anyways back to the OP's topic. Look into INOV-8. Traditional design shoe any many models weigh as much if not less than VFF's. Doesn't look goofy and performs better for running

[wet dog]

Running barefoot kinda pointless, given the risks involved. Saw it in a lot of 3rd world shit holes, then thought, that's why its 3rd world. Then had the idea, shoes, access to clean water and dental care can quickly bring a group or culture into the modern world.

[perdurabo]

Background
I am big (6'4) and heavy (~235lbs). I've run many trail and road marathons and ultras, and I "hash" (nuff said). I only run roads when I have to.

Over the years, I've worked my running style into a low-calorie-burn "shuffle" with toe strikes, though in training I like to rip up hills like a madman, and do sprints. I've done a bit of actual barefoot running on the road, as well.

I am a big proponent of toe striking and avoiding Runner's World and anyone (except me!) who offers their advice. Go to a trail race, find the gruffest, sickest bastard you can -- he'll be the guy who grins & growls as he sprints up the steepest cliff of the race, buy him a beer, and pick his brain.

VFFs
They're great. I don't have the embarrassment issue with them because I live near a town internationally famous for running, everybody has a pair. They're great for roads and non-crushed rock trails.

There's a learning curve with them. You have to learn to eliminate toe slapping and learn how to perform light foot strikes (on the ground). Shoed people are used to ramming their heels into the ground and this won't cut it for the toes.

I like them because I can feel damn near everything under my foot, and they're very well-ventilated to the atmosphere. They let me stay in tune with the terrain.

The downsides?

They suck on crushed rock trails. I had tough feet and even began running several miles of pavement actually barefoot (without VFF/shoes) and I still could not handle crushed rock in VFFs. I tried and I couldn't condition my feet to tolerate it.

The topside of the shoe isn't very durable. If you're going to be on a remote trail, bring some duct tape to seal up any holes that might develop from a fall. It really sucks having to run several miles back to the car with pebbles and dirt getting into your VFFs.

They suck in the mud. I have the rugged KSO model with the traction crap on the bottom and did a 4 mile mud race in them. It was like running on an ice skating rink. They suck for running across creeks, swamps, and heavy tree root areas.

LaSportiva Crosslites
These are great trail shoes at about $90. They're rugged, fantastic treads, very lightweight and they don't look unusual. When you first try on a pair, you have to loosen the laces up quite a bit and then tension them up to a good comfort level.

There's not a lot of bulk under the foot so it's no problem running as a toe striker in these. Even though there's not a lot of bulk, you don't have to worry about jagged rocks, the sole is solid. The treads are like soccer cleat treads, but they don't collect mud.

ASIC DuoMax
Great basic road shoe for neutral pronators. I've run several road and even trail races in them. They don't fall apart at all. I've had 3 pair now (wore the cushioning out in each back when I was a heel striker).