PDA

View Full Version : Reflection


sinjefe
10-08-2010, 06:52
From http://changingminds.org/explanations/theories/groupthink.htm
:

Janis (1972) defines Groupthink as "a way of deliberating that group members use when their desire for unanimity overrides their motivation to assess all available plans of action."

Eight Symptoms of Groupthink:

1. Illusions of invulnerability where the group thinks it is invincible and can do no wrong.
2. Collective efforts to rationalize or discount warnings.
3. Unquestioned belief in the moral correctness of the group.
4. Stereotyped views of the out-group, often as too evil, weak or stupid to be worth bothering with.
5. Self-censorship as people decide not to rock the boat.
6. Pressure to conform.
7. A shared illusion of unanimity (everyone always agrees with everyone else).
8. Protecting the group from contrary viewpoints, by self-appointed 'mind-guards'.

Groups suffering from Groupthink are:

1. More dogmatic.
2. Justify irrational and poor decisions.
3. See their actions as highly moral.
4. Stereotype outsiders.


Sinjefe

drymartini66
10-08-2010, 14:48
From http://changingminds.org/explanations/theories/groupthink.htm
:

Janis (1972) defines Groupthink as "a way of deliberating that group members use when their desire for unanimity overrides their motivation to assess all available plans of action."

Eight Symptoms of Groupthink:

1. Illusions of invulnerability where the group thinks it is invincible and can do no wrong.
2. Collective efforts to rationalize or discount warnings.
3. Unquestioned belief in the moral correctness of the group.
4. Stereotyped views of the out-group, often as too evil, weak or stupid to be worth bothering with.
5. Self-censorship as people decide not to rock the boat.
6. Pressure to conform.
7. A shared illusion of unanimity (everyone always agrees with everyone else).
8. Protecting the group from contrary viewpoints, by self-appointed 'mind-guards'.

Groups suffering from Groupthink are:

1. More dogmatic.
2. Justify irrational and poor decisions.
3. See their actions as highly moral.
4. Stereotype outsiders.


Sinjefe

You boatrocker you!:D

nmap
10-08-2010, 15:03
My first reaction is that groupthink is rather common. Perhaps the reality of human nature and the desire to fit in provide an ideal environment.

And yet - is it always a bad thing? Seriously. That feeling of unity and invulnerability could contribute to a success mentality, could it not? Granted, there are real and substantial risks, and failure, when it occurs, may be spectacular. However, prior to such failure, the group might be able to achieve much.

sinjefe
10-08-2010, 16:14
When I worked at SWC and my current job I had/have to work often in working groups. Organizations, especially government ones, seem to resist change and are overcome by inertia. It becomes evident fairly quickly, especially when working in a military setting, that our leaders are often more interested in a specific outcome than in using the process to figure out how to do something. In other words, they know what they want before the group starts and "massage" the group into going along. I think, to a degree, some groupthing is unavoidable in a cohesive organization. the point really is to recognize that it exists and fight it. It is my experience that groupthink tends to stifle creative thinking and cause the group to overlook what might be obvious resolutions to an outsider.

dr. mabuse
10-08-2010, 20:12
I remember a book on this subject.

A friend in upper management at Verizon said they studied it but ultimately never utilized it.

Perhaps some good old-fashioned brainstorming without judgment first could go a long, long way.

Nmap, I believe the problem is that those eight symptoms tend to develop as a package in the civilian world. How to cull out the possible good traits without the bad?

Or just read Blaber's book and cut to the chase. ;)

219seminole
10-08-2010, 20:31
The bright idea and planning for 1944's Operation MARKET GARDEN is a good example of group think. The lone voice of a British intel officer who suspected Panzers were near the landing zones was pushed aside. The goal was to end the war by Christmas and once Montgomery used the expression "an airborne carpet" to describe how the tanks would rush forward, there was no stopping the error and everyone jumped on board, including Ike. The brits lost an airborne division in the disaster and we significant suffered losses as well.

nmap
10-08-2010, 20:59
Nmap, I believe the problem is that those eight symptoms tend to develop as a package in the civilian world. How to cull out the possible good traits without the bad?


I doubt you can avoid the bad - since the attributes lead to both good and adverse outcomes.

My thinking goes back to the classic motivational tape that one might provide to salesmen. The salesmen do more business for a time. Then, their productivity slumps. But the improvement in business during the "up" time more than offsets the losses that are sure to follow.

So - does the same pattern apply here? The people involved in groupthink are unified, see themselves as superior, and function accordingly. I came across an item that found that high expectations of students led to a "small but detectable advantage on subsequent academic achievement." LINK (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3673/is_3_127/ai_n32443654/?tag=content;col1)

I realize it can lead to disaster, as in the case mentioned by 219seminole, but I wonder if it might actually be positive much (most?) of the time.

sinjefe
10-08-2010, 21:19
Eight Symptoms of Groupthink:

1. Illusions of invulnerability where the group thinks it is invincible and can do no wrong.
2. Collective efforts to rationalize or discount warnings.
3. Unquestioned belief in the moral correctness of the group.
4. Stereotyped views of the out-group, often as too evil, weak or stupid to be worth bothering with.
5. Self-censorship as people decide not to rock the boat.
6. Pressure to conform.
7. A shared illusion of unanimity (everyone always agrees with everyone else).
8. Protecting the group from contrary viewpoints, by self-appointed 'mind-guards'.

Groups suffering from Groupthink are:

1. More dogmatic.
2. Justify irrational and poor decisions.
3. See their actions as highly moral.
4. Stereotype outsiders.

Look at the words Janis uses. Illusions of invulnerabilty, rationalize or discount warnings, unquestioned belief in moral correctness of group, stereotyped views, etc, etc

These are all negative conclusions, not positive. Groupthink is the ultimate expression of human arrogance (rather than "I am right" ,"we are right") and dangerous

T-Rock
10-08-2010, 22:09
I don’t know why but for some reason when I think of “Group Think,” I think of the “Peoples Cube” :D

:D > http://thepeoplescube.com/groupthink.html

drymartini66
10-08-2010, 23:34
When I think of Group Think, I think of lemmings going over the cliff or go along to get along. Like a salmon, I'd rather go up stream than to float down river with the dead fish.:D

Stingray
10-09-2010, 01:52
When I worked at SWC and my current job I had/have to work often in working groups. Organizations, especially government ones, seem to resist change and are overcome by inertia. It becomes evident fairly quickly, especially when working in a military setting, that our leaders are often more interested in a specific outcome than in using the process to figure out how to do something. In other words, they know what they want before the group starts and "massage" the group into going along. I think, to a degree, some groupthing is unavoidable in a cohesive organization. the point really is to recognize that it exists and fight it. It is my experience that groupthink tends to stifle creative thinking and cause the group to overlook what might be obvious resolutions to an outsider.

This isn't just a military technique. It is a very unproductive type of groupthink. I was part of a senior management team whose company President did this often. Every person in these meetings knew the decision was pre-made and we would "discuss" ideas until his desired outcome was reached. He failed to give any manager in the room credit for their intelligence and creativity disappeared. I brought this to his attention. He disagreed with my assesment. He thought he was such a master persuader that no one could be sharp enough to see through the smoke. The company lost the core group of managers over 60% of the revenue after he was selected to run the company. I learned a lot from him. You can learn a great deal from poor leadership.

Back in my lane.

V/r,

PedOncoDoc
10-09-2010, 04:14
Eight Symptoms of Groupthink:

1. Illusions of invulnerability where the group thinks it is invincible and can do no wrong.
2. Collective efforts to rationalize or discount warnings.
3. Unquestioned belief in the moral correctness of the group.
4. Stereotyped views of the out-group, often as too evil, weak or stupid to be worth bothering with.
5. Self-censorship as people decide not to rock the boat.
6. Pressure to conform.
7. A shared illusion of unanimity (everyone always agrees with everyone else).
8. Protecting the group from contrary viewpoints, by self-appointed 'mind-guards'.

Groups suffering from Groupthink are:

1. More dogmatic.
2. Justify irrational and poor decisions.
3. See their actions as highly moral.
4. Stereotype outsiders.

Look at the words Janis uses. Illusions of invulnerabilty, rationalize or discount warnings, unquestioned belief in moral correctness of group, stereotyped views, etc, etc

These are all negative conclusions, not positive. Groupthink is the ultimate expression of human arrogance (rather than "I am right" ,"we are right") and dangerous

The first thing I thought when I read this list is that it was a list of warning behaviors to identify a cult. Using these rules to characterize a business or working group is intriguing.

Ambush Master
10-09-2010, 06:23
At a recent "In-House" Seminar, they started off with : "We want you to think "Outside Of The Box"":eek: At which, I raised my hand and asked "What IS A BOX?!?!":munchin After they explained the definition, I again raised my hand. I then stated that I had not been in such a place since somewhere back around........ 1968!!!

The facilitator had just LOST control of this 2 day conference!!..............IT WAS THEN FUN!!!!:D

Groupthink does not stand a CHANCE if you mix in a QP!!

Later
Martin

greenberetTFS
10-09-2010, 06:25
Stringray's panda looks pretty tough, but Richard's panda looks too big and tough for this fight,I'll take Richard's,giving 3-1 odds..........;)

Big Teddy :munchin

lksteve
10-09-2010, 07:19
Hmm...I have visions of the Abilene Paradox all over again...

http://www.xecu.net/schaller/management/abilene.pdf

sinjefe
10-09-2010, 08:33
Harvey actually cites Janis in his article. Great read and point. Perhaps groupthink, as Janis describes it, is a broader symptom of basic human flaws (expressions of fear, conformity, poor communication, apathy, etc). I liked Ambush Master's comments on "out of the box" thinking (a term I can't stand). It is said to give the appearance of unconventional thinking and avoidance of groupthink. Whenever you hear a manger say "we need to think out of the box", look out. However, I don't agree with "add a QP to the mix and groupthink doesn't stand a chance" philosophy. What if the group is made up of QPs? I worked at DOTD 06-08. SWC had been struggling with redefining UW for some time and spent the two years I was there brainstorming it in working groups. That was groupthink on steroids. I rememebr sitting down with my boss (SF LTC) and he "briefed" me on the two years of work spent on the definition of UW. Without going into too many details, I said to him that his definition really looked the same as what it had always been. All they had done was "wordsmithed". He was actually hurt that I couldn't see the substaniatve differences between their work and what it had been. Aaron Banks had to be rolling over in his grave.

lksteve
10-09-2010, 10:39
Perhaps groupthink, as Janis describes it, is a broader symptom of basic human flaws (expressions of fear, conformity, poor communication, apathy, etc).During a brief cycle break in IOBC, we saw the video that accompanied the Abilene Paradox (part of a mandatory week of Organization Effectiveness training as we were standing up a new company). It was absolutely hilarious, especially since one of the other trainers was from that part of Texas (the video had comic details regarding the makeshift swamp cooler and the nature of the meal at the diner and the misery of the trip in the car).

I think the need to conform is one key element. I think command or corporate climate is another. A good deal of group think, from my experience, comes when the older hands try to second guess the boss because they know what makes him tick (sounds cliche because it is damn near verbatim from what I was told a couple of jobs back). Maybe the boss is tyrannical or perhaps he tries to engender a collegial working environment. Once again, from my experience, those extremes tend to create the most fertile environments for group think. Either everyone is afraid to buck the old man or the old man doesn't step forward to break up the party...

And as far as taking two years to rewrite the definintion of UW, it doesn't surprise me...reinventing the wheel is a cumbersome process...it's no better outside the Armed Forces...I was a department head for a company that spent $250K for over a week of blame storming for a corporate five year plan and in the end came away with a mission statement that had nothing to do with the activities of the company and a new logo. It essentially was a feel-good session with old ideas recycled with new words and a lot of self-congratulatory pats on the back. My tendency to comment on the emperor's new garments were noted by the CEO (not favorably) and my comments regarding the mission statement were not appreciated...the boy can retire from SF, but you still can't take him out in public...LOL...

Of course his unease may have been exacerbated when I was asked for a new paradigm and tossed a quarter on the table with a comment to keep the change...along with out of the box, changing paradigms is another expression that needs to go away.

PSM
10-09-2010, 19:09
I then stated that I had not been in such a place since somewhere back around........ 1968!!!

Later
Martin

Was it a Tiger Cage or a buried wall locker at the SEE Prison Camp in AIT? ;)

Pat

Stingray
10-10-2010, 00:58
Stringray's panda looks pretty tough, but Richard's panda looks too big and tough for this fight,I'll take Richard's,giving 3-1 odds..........;)

Big Teddy :munchin

Safe bet. My money is on Richard as well. You'll probably have to up the odd's to get any takers. :lifter

Guy
10-10-2010, 03:20
Groupthink does not stand a CHANCE if you mix in a QP!!Groupthink sounds like a new "fad" word for a meeting where you exchange ideas without any results.:D

"We can talk about this all day however, if we don't anything it ain't nothing but talk.":eek:

And trust me, if you do something and it's sucessful...watch out! SOBs will ride that train until it dies.:D

Stay safe.

lksteve
10-10-2010, 07:55
Groupthink sounds like a new "fad" word for a meeting where you exchange ideas without any resultsThe term has been around quite awhile...

nmap
10-10-2010, 12:09
So, in an attempt to conform ( ;) ) to the consensus view, I accept that groupthink is always bad. And yet, numerous examples suggest it is common throughout organizations in every part of society. This leads to a serious question - if groupthink is bad, why do people keep doing it?


What is bad? For now, I suppose it means that we get results that are worse than if we didn't engage in the behavior.

Is it the bacon cheeseburger syndrome? We know it will have bad effects at some point, but it's really pleasant going down. And yet, who really likes meetings?

Or, is the desire to conform, and to be a part of a group, so strong that we choose to be agreeable ahead of all other choices?

Or, perhaps our internal calculator determines that there is little risk in nodding sagely, agreeing with everyone else, and avoiding original thought? In essence, slacking off is the predominant factor in determining human behavior in such settings.

Surely there must be reasons better than anything I've come up with. I wonder what they might be.

Ret10Echo
10-10-2010, 12:23
A disturbing trend I have been witness to is the government version of groupthink otherwise known as a committee...focus group...work group...etc.

Why are these "groups" put together to formulate bad decisions:


Because there is nowhere to hang blame. Everyone in the group has deniability for being the decision maker.


It is safe haven for the risk averse.

My .02

R10

sinjefe
10-10-2010, 15:48
Interesting point, R10. I think you are right about the working group and that ties in to nmap's comment about why do we do it. In the military, it may be that anything outside the norm really is not desired. Having participated in those WG's, groupthink is never even considered, they are so focused on re-inventing the wheel because that is what the boss asked for. As far as individuals are considered, they/we keep doing it because groupthink, just like critical thinking, is not necessarily a natural state of being. It is learned.

Green Light
10-10-2010, 15:55
A disturbing trend I have been witness to is the government version of groupthink otherwise known as a committee...focus group...work group...etc.

Why are these "groups" put together to formulate bad decisions:


Because there is nowhere to hang blame. Everyone in the group has deniability for being the decision maker.


It is safe haven for the risk averse.

My .02

R10

I was a stand-in on a working group about a month ago. (This is no exaggeration): They were finishing the charter for the working group - 9 months of work. :rolleyes:

Dozer523
10-10-2010, 20:52
Hmm...I have visions of the Abilene Paradox all over again...

http://www.xecu.net/schaller/management/abilene.pdf When I went to CAS Cubed this video was one of the first classes we received.
We loved it.
Our FA was so pleased.

Our class motto was "GET ON THE BUS."

lksteve
10-10-2010, 20:57
When I went to CAS Cubed this video was one of the first classes we received. That was the second time I encountered it...it was better when viewed with a half dozen tired, burned out platoon trainers...CAS Cubed folks were all civilized and Quartermaster and AG and stuff like that...and John P., a QP from Bangs, TX wasn't there to point out some of the finer details...

Our class motto was "Bump, Set, Spike"...

dennisw
10-10-2010, 22:47
Sounds like Orc talk.

Guy
10-10-2010, 22:59
The term has been around quite awhile...All I'm going to say is...SYNONYM. :D

A disturbing trend I have been witness to is the government version of groupthink otherwise known as a committee...focus group...work group...etc.

Why are these "groups" put together to formulate bad decisions:

Because there is nowhere to hang blame. Everyone in the group has deniability for being the decision maker.

It is safe haven for the risk averse.

My .02

R10Good copy!

Stay safe.

Utah Bob
10-11-2010, 16:37
I'm reminded of the Challenger disaster. Group think can kill.
I was required to study it in a senior leadership class a few years ago.
No survivors there.

I meant the shuttle, not the class. There were actually several survivors of the class.;)