Precision Rifle

[Interesting]

Hi guys,

Ok, first; I have searched and been educated on precision rifles, not extensively of course. I in no way have any experience with such a rifle since my professional time was spent with a handgun and a shotgun. Then later a patrol rifle.

This said platform I want to be dual purpose unless I am educated different. First and foremost a hunting rifle which can be backed up as being used for other survival purposes. Mainly taking four legged antlered animals.
I have a Remington Model 721 .270 cal but am looking to get something else that I can get spare parts for. Some parts of the 721 can no longer be had, do hobby gunsmithing on the side now, that is how I know that. This rifle must be rugged, easy to maintain and somewhat accurate. I don't think I need to be sub 1/2 moa for a hunting/survival rifle, correct me if I am wrong please. Bolt or semi? Cal for mid to long range with good kinetic energy transfer?

Anyways, wanted to get some opinions from guys who have used these types of rifles for real and not get the hype, I know that is why I am here and that is why I came to this site, tired of the airsofters and arm chair commando opinions.

Thanks in advance for the replies.

:munchin

[Justinmd]

You didn't mention all the types of precision shooting you are doing, you simply mentioned hunting and survival.

If you just need a fairly accurate rifle for hunting, there's many options in the highly accurate range. Just about any bolt gun with a synthetic stock could be considered "rugged, easy to maintain, and somewhat accurate."

You need to define what you consider mid to long range and what targets you are shooting at that range. Kinetic energy TRANSFER is largely bullet construction dependent, kinetic energy LEVELS are largely cartridge, bullet weight and shape, barrel length, etc, dependent.

You need to also mention your price range and your price range for optics.

Then tell us if you plan to reload.

Next, are you shooting matches or doing group shooting or what. Plenty of thin barrelled hunting rifles will put rounds into 1" + or -

[Buffalobob]

A Rem 700 action is about as common of an action as can be obtained. Spare parts are everywhere. If it is trued then accuracy will be extreme.

The 308 cartridge is about the most common cartridge available and can be obtained almost anywhere. It is available in many configurations such as Federal Gold Medal Match. If you learn to reload then ammo availability becomes less of a problem

The problem with a mid to long range survival rifle is going to be the sighting system. Telescopic sights are going to be a problem over the long term and the really durable systems are really expensive. Competition iron sights are not really geared for hunting and I do not know anyone who makes a really good and durable long range hunting iron sight. Parts and repair are going to be major problems to solve.

Something to consider is what does survival mean to you. There is the Mad Max wandering through post apocalyptic mutants and then there is Mormon stockpile food and water in your basement waiting for the Moroni to blow his horn styles of survival.

[craigepo]

Another very serious consideration for you will be caliber. Noting where you live, there are some pretty big critters roaming around.

I built a .308 mountain gun a couple years ago, took it elk hunting, and put three good shots into an elk before he dropped for good. I am quite sure, if that would have been a bear, I would now be bear poop.

The .308 is a good caliber for a "survival gun" here in Missouri. In the Rockies, the animals are bigger, as are the ranges. A .308 would be my absolute-minimum caliber.

You also have to carry the gun, and the hills in Utah are big. I like light guns, and shoot a #3 taper Lilja barrel. However, you are not going to get many shots through this barrel before heat becomes a serious accuracy factor. Also, having a short-action round decreases weight substantially versus a long-action.

In your area, I would seriously consider either a .300 winchester magnum, or a .300 winchester short mag. Very good ballistics and knockdown. Good long range rounds. You can load light for whitetail, and load heavy for bigger stuff. (If you don't reload, find a friend who does.)

A friend recently built a .300 win short mag, going with the short mag to save weight. He built it as follows: Rem 700 action(milled), #3 Lilja barrel, MacMillan stock, aluminum pillar bedding, Leupold glass, talley rings/mounts. The gun is a tack-driver, and has already proven itself well on elk and whitetail.

[HOLLiS]

For your 721 parts, do you know about Numrichs? They are probably the largest supplier of used firearm parts.

http://www.gunpartscorp.com/catalog/Products.aspx?catid=4335

[Combat Diver]

Interesting,

Concur with my brother OPs. First need a bit more diffinition on use. Besides the 700, don't over look the Savage 110 action (easy to change bbls at home) and the Mauser 98. For a chambering besides the .308, .300 WM and WSM dont' forget the 30-06. All these .30 cals will work and you'll be able to find ammo. There are a few models of the 700 and 110 that come with irons sights (not the best but backups). My hunting rifle is a Harrison and Richardson 340 (Yugoslavian 98) in .308 with a Leupold VXII 2x7. My battle rifle is a 18" FAL with ARMS mount, mounting a Leupold 3x which has proven to drop whitetails at 300m.

CD

[Team Sergeant]

I'm also in the market for a mid-longrange hunting rifle and have decided on the caliber, .300 but not the platform. Though I am leaning toward a Remington 700.

[Justinmd]

TS,
Take a look at the Tikka T3 rifles, they are great values, and a really good general action. I like the T3 over a Rem 700 any day. If you want to go a few steps up, the Sako TRG comes in 300WM and is one of the best rifles available.
Justin

[Peregrino]

TS,
Take a look at the Tikka T3 rifles, they are great values, and a really good general action. I like the T3 over a Rem 700 any day. If you want to go a few steps up, the Sako TRG comes in 300WM and is one of the best rifles available.
Justin

My gunsmith said the same thing "a while ago". I've played with his Tikka and am impressed. I've been looking at the Sako as a basis for a .338 build. Unfortunately, I can't afford to do it right now so it's on the back burner.

[Justinmd]

Peregrino, the T3 is really a great choice, but there's other good ones too. The new Sako A7's are nice, and cheap, Savage makes a good rifle, though I don't like some of its quirks, it really is a good time to be in the market for a decent bolt gun. The Rem's can be customized of course, (there's downsides to the Rem as well) but the others aren't far behind.

For a .338, Sako makes a TRG-42 in .338, it runs about 2700 if you find a good deal. But you can't beat that rifle, for a factory gun. My TRG-22 will shoot just as good as my customs, which is basically saying it will shoot better than my abilities.

If you guys are ever in my neck, we'll get you behind our stuff and turn you into Sako/Tikka believers, haha.
Justin

[Buffalobob]

The Tikka has a weird recoil lug.

[HOLLiS]

I picked up a Thompson Center Icon in .308 Win. Might be worth looking at them.

http://www.tcarms.com/firearms/icon_precision_hunter.php

Tikkas are nice too.

[Interesting]

Hey guys,

Sorry been away from the computer some time and only have enough time to post this quick thank you. You all have given me alot to chew on even with some of the PM's that I have received. Having come from the Boy Scouts and then working in LE I am used to being prepared, being prepared for the worst case scenario and hoping for the best and being prepared for the realistic. Sorry, I don't know of any zombies in my AO, LOL. As far as range and caliber, yes I have considered alot and even have some tenantive ideas. I would not go below a .308 cal. and I am leaning towards a larger caliber even though I am not against going with the .308 cal. totally. After continued reading here and elsewhere, been really thinking of the Rem 700 action. While just browsing the Internet just after my OP, I found this site; http://www.deserttacticalarms.com/.
Just wondering on the feasibility of accuracy with a system like that. My understanding, can and willing to be corrected/further educated; is that taking the barrel on/off impares accuracy. Is that not correct? That got me thinking about this system, I like the fact that I could buy two different barrels and basically have a modular system for varying scenario's. But then again this is coming from my VERY limited knowledge of the subject. Still reading Ultimate Sniper and getting alot of ideas from there to.
And, as far as more info, well really I just want something that will take care of big game in my AO, my thoughts are that if it can do that it can handle any survival situation; and ranges can be so varied that I can only generalize it this way, somewhere between 400 and 1500 yds. Most hunting here is between those ranges with the 1500 yds being the extreme, have a relative that took an elk with a .338 at that range.
And this is going to be a work in progress, I want to do it right from the beginning I realize that there is no perfect platform and things may even change but if I start off with accurate information, I may not have much change to deal with.

Thanks guys, keep it coming . . . . .

[The Reaper]

Hey guys,

Sorry been away from the computer some time and only have enough time to post this quick thank you. You all have given me alot to chew on even with some of the PM's that I have received. Having come from the Boy Scouts and then working in LE I am used to being prepared, being prepared for the worst case scenario and hoping for the best and being prepared for the realistic. Sorry, I don't know of any zombies in my AO, LOL. As far as range and caliber, yes I have considered alot and even have some tenantive ideas. I would not go below a .308 cal. and I am leaning towards a larger caliber even though I am not against going with the .308 cal. totally. After continued reading here and elsewhere, been really thinking of the Rem 700 action. While just browsing the Internet just after my OP, I found this site; http://www.deserttacticalarms.com/.
Just wondering on the feasibility of accuracy with a system like that. My understanding, can and willing to be corrected/further educated; is that taking the barrel on/off impares accuracy. Is that not correct? That got me thinking about this system, I like the fact that I could buy two different barrels and basically have a modular system for varying scenario's. But then again this is coming from my VERY limited knowledge of the subject. Still reading Ultimate Sniper and getting alot of ideas from there to.
And, as far as more info, well really I just want something that will take care of big game in my AO, my thoughts are that if it can do that it can handle any survival situation; and ranges can be so varied that I can only generalize it this way, somewhere between 400 and 1500 yds. Most hunting here is between those ranges with the 1500 yds being the extreme, have a relative that took an elk with a .338 at that range.
And this is going to be a work in progress, I want to do it right from the beginning I realize that there is no perfect platform and things may even change but if I start off with accurate information, I may not have much change to deal with.

Thanks guys, keep it coming . . . . .

What is the best group that you have ever shot, and at what range?

Iron sights or optics?

What do you plan to engage with it, humans or game? Singles or multiples?

What game animals are you looking to hunt?

How many rounds have you fired and do you plan to fire per year?

Have you received any formal marksmanship training?

A $3,000 1/4 moa rifle will not make the average person any better as a shooter than giving them a Porsche will make them a great driver.

Why do you need a removable barrel? Can you not fit a regular one into whatever you need to?

What is your justification for engaging a target at 1500 yds.?

Not sure you really have to engage game that would require more than a .30-'06 offers.

I would avoid the entire wannabe sniper issue.

A good hunting rifle will not be an optimal defense or survival rifle, and vice versa. It should beat a sharp stick though, if you know how to use it.

IMHO, I do not think you have refined your requirement adequately to allow an informed response.

TR

[Buffalobob]

I think I pretty much know every one in Utah who has killed an elk beyond 1000 yards. Everyone is a small group of three people. Two were shooting a gun owned by a guy named Bawden and it was a 338 Thunder and the other guy was shooting a 7 Dakota.

Everything TR said I agree with.

I have several extreme range rifles that have killed quite a few animals beyond 800 yards. I compete regularly in 1K f-class. If what you really wish to do is to just hunt at long range then you should participate in the forum that is run just for that kind of thing. You should also have the shooting skills to compete in long range events

http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/

I would just add that some people believe that being able to shoot accurately at 1000 yards will help them kill more animals. My own opinion is that if you cannot regularly kill animals under 100 yards then you do not know enough about animal behavior to do much good at long range.


If you want to build a switch barrel rifle all you will really need in the way of tools to change barrels is an action wrench and a headspace gauge for each chamber. First thing to do is to get an accurate action and that could be one such as the Stiller Predatpr

http://www.viperactions.com/

or Surgeon

http://www.surgeonrifles.com/products/actions/

or anyone of several others including a accurized Rem 700.

Second thing is to use a gunsmith who knows how to build such rifles.



Finally, to repeat what TR said- stay away from the the wannabe systems. Here are just a few stories to back up what you have been told about practice and long range rifles

http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21790

http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21854


I have already been to Utah elk hunting this year with my bow and when I finish typing this I am going up to the kitchen and warm me up some leftover elk shoulder roast. :D

[Interesting]

Alright,
Now we are getting to the serious stuff. Like I stated in my OP, this realm of shooting I am totally un-educated in, that is why I asked. Now I have a list of questions to answer, I did not even think about some of the issues in the questions, Thanks Reaper for getting me to think outside of the box on this.

As far as hunting or precision rifles, not ever shot for a group. I killed an antelope many years ago with AK variant. Range: approxiamtely 100 yds, two shots, First shot broke it's spine, second shot through the heart.
The above was done with iron sights, no optics.
Engagement: mainly animals but if needed two legged creatures also.
Hunting: mainly deer and elk.
Total rounds: Rifle precision, not enough; maybe 100 if that. That is why I stated I am new to this.
Once I find a platform that is the initial, plan on shooting bi-weekly.
Only formal training involves pistols, I am a trainer in that discipline. No other formal besides my training in LE on the shotgun and patrol rifle.
I realize that a high dollar rifle does not make a shooter, just was wondering what your guys opinion was of the system and the fact that it has a quick change barrel and what effect that has on accuracy. That thing is WAY out of my price range anyways. My wife would kill me.
Again, not necessarily wanting a removable barrel, see previous.
I don't necessarily want to engage at 1500 yds.. I believe if you can't get closer than that then you should not be hunting. But, on the other hand would not mind having the ability, better to have and not need than need and not have.
That is fine with me on the 30'06 just what I was looking for, recommendations.
I think maybe I worded my relpy in such a way that I gave the impression of that sniper thing. I am past the young age of wanna be and just want to be prepared and learn something new for me. If I wanted to be a sniper, I would have joined the armed forces some 26 years ago and done that. Instead I went into LE, followed my fathers footsteps I guess and did what I did.
Again, probably did not clarify that I have a self-defense option already taken care of in the carbine area. Looking for hunting or precision rifle now, hence my OP.
Hopefully that will help, I have been getting good ideas from people already reference this.
Buffalobob please PM me reference this, maybe I have been told wrong. Wow, someone lied to me. LOL.
Again Buffalobob, not wanting to build it, was just asking about the accuracy potential of such a creature.
Like I stated in my second post, leaning heavily toward the Rem 700 action unless there is something better that would be recommended.
Hollis, yes already checked there, and I am set up through Brownells to buy wholesale too. Found out recently Rem is no longer making the part.
Justinmd, you mentioned that you would take the T3 over the Rem, so would you take the T3 over the Sako too, or would that be a step down?
Enquiring minds want to know. Thanks guys, sorry for the confusion.

[Peregrino]

Just spoke with my gunsmith (I love saying that - makes me sound affluent; just wish I could afford to do most of what he recommends) and he said various unflattering things about your lack of experience/knowlege. Bottom line - take your Rem 721 to a competent gunsmith and let him work it over. It's compatible with most Rem 700 parts and perfectly adequate for your needs. Trigger, bedding, maybe recrown the existing barrel, and decent optics. Remember - you said survival - that means only taking high percentage shots. All you need is MOA accuracy and optics adequate for dawn/dusk to +/- 500 yds MAX. .270 is a perfectly acceptable cartridge for your purposes. If you want to rebarrel into a 30-06 you can take any North American game at reasonable range. If you handload, it gets even better. Save the Manners/McMillan stocks, Lilja barrels, Jewel triggers, and NightForce optics for after you win the lottery.

[Interesting]

Peregrino,

I am not interested in getting into a flame with anyone here. Maybe I am reading too much into your post.
Anyways, no you can no longer buy a Rem 721 extractor, nor does Rem make them anymore, Remington gunsmiths confirmed that and in Brownells Gunsmith Kinks, #4 page 342, it says that, " Rem 721/722 extractors are no longer available." There are several factors that I have looked at that have convinced me that I am not going to mess around with the extractor on this rifle. First and foremost is that without putting out alot of money for a mod to fix it or putting in a sub-standard, but workable part; is just not what I am willing to do with my late father's gun that was handed down to me.
The reason I am looking for another rifle is that I want to keep this Rem 721 as original when my dad gave it to me for a family keepsake.
No where in any of my posts have I alluded to that I knew what I was doing. Just asking questions and wanting to know information about precision rifles. I never claimed to be a gunsmith or anything of the sort. I play around doing some of it but ONLY on my rifles, my little hobby. I believe if you can't fix it you should not be using it. I have built both of my AR's and they are great little rifles that shoot just fine. I am sure they out-shoot me. Am I a gunsmith NO, just like fixing/building MY OWN rifles.
I am not looking to do any mods to this rifle at all, hence my OP and asking questions about precision rifles.
Thank you for your time and information Peregrino and most of all, Thank you for your service.

[Buffalobob]

I killed an antelope many years ago with AK variant. Range: approxiamtely 100 yds, two shots, First shot broke it's spine, second shot through the heart.

That is archery range, not rifle range.


The most recent world record at 1K for a 10 shot group was set at Williamsport Pa. using a 300 WSM and Berger 210s. Group size was under 3 inches. That is only relevant to say that the 300 WSM is an accurate cartridge that competes favorable with the 300 Win Mag. Both cartridges have reasonable throat life. Two of the three people I know who have killed elk at ranges past 2K used to compete at Williamsport.

Bawden, before he designed his 338, used a 300 Win Mag and Nosler 180 ABs to kill two or three elk at ranges beyond 800 yards.

I do not have any personal experience with either cartridge but I know Bawden and most of his work was done with witnesses present so there is not much doubt about whether he actually did the things he said.

I will just remind you that you are on a forum dedicated to military skills and that is not the same as hunting skills. A military chamber in a rifle is a lot different than a specialized long range hunting rifle. All of my chambers are tight but not to the extent of needing to neck turn. Basically what I specify is minimum SAAMI. The throat is where one must make decisions and then live with the results. If one is going to shoot long high sectional density VLDs then the throat is cut so that the bullet is not seated down into the case body occupying space that is needed for powder. This then means the rifle may not shoot shorter bullets very well nor factory cartridges unless you can find ones that jump. It also may cause you grief in that the bullet will not longer fit into your magazine and then you may need to get specialized bottom metal. One way to get around this is to use a long action for a short action cartridge.

There is no disadvantage to using a single shot action for a long range rifle being as travel time is going to be long and if you miss there is a need to stop and think about what you did wrong so you are seldom in a hurry to make a second shot.

Loading manuals and factory ammo are designed for factory type rifles. Most of us who use 28-34 inch barrels for hunting use really slow powders which provide for very good burn in the long barrels and give us extra velocity.

None of this is to say a person cannot use a commercially available sporter weight rifle to kill elk at 1K but the odds of doing so get magnified. Lots of people kill elk out to 600 yards but that is where the average person will not practice nor spend the money for quality optics and quality parts so very few will ever make it beyond that point. For example, my spotting scope costs about $1K, my binoculars cost over $1K, my rangefinder costs right at $1K. So I'm into the sport for $3K and haven't even talked about the rifle.

[craigepo]

I'm glad BuffaloBob isn't shooting at me.

[mojaveman]

A survival and hunting rifle?

How about a nice Springfield Armory M1A with a decent scope?

[Interesting]

I think I can put this to rest now. I am pretty sure I am going to go with a Rem 700 in 30'06. Price is right and I can put as much money into as I need to make it what I think will fill the gap. Plus, as The Reaper put it, can get into handloading and design different rounds for different purposes. I think that fits right in with your post mojaveman, simple is good.
Are you down in my old stomping ground or somewhere else in the southwest?

Thanks for everyone's input. We're good to go.

[HOLLiS]

Brownells sells new parts. I posted a site Numrichs, they are the largest supplier of used part. They do have a extractor for a Rem 721 in stock, it is for a 300 Win mag. They may eventually get one in for a 270. Also have you tried to google for that part? There are other used parts dealers out there.

Some gunsmiths can make obsolete parts.

A secret to saving money. When you buy a fire arms, shoot it, see how it shoots before messing with it. Assumption is; you know how to shoot.

You can check the trigger, 3.5 pounds with a crisp pull is great. Lesser pull is not necessary better. It can be more dangerous.

Crown, IMHO, is very important to accuracy.

Bedding, is more for target rifles, it does improve accuracy but not that much.

Hunting accuracy is not as tight as target (unless you are Buffalo Bob).

Generally hand loads will group better than factory, assuming you know how to reload. Custom building loads for a specific rifle takes time and skill.

On Caliber, 30-06 is a great round there are many great rounds out there. I would look at a 300 Win Mag, it's difference in hitting power is greater than a 30-06 is from a 270. Any way, depends on what you are hunting, also depends on you.

[Peregrino]

Peregrino,

I am not interested in getting into a flame with anyone here. Maybe I am reading too much into your post. You are. There was a fair amount of "tongue in cheek" in my initial sentences.
Anyways, no you can no longer buy a Rem 721 extractor, nor does Rem make them anymore, Remington gunsmiths confirmed that and in Brownells Gunsmith Kinks, #4 page 342, it says that, " Rem 721/722 extractors are no longer available." Remington is actively engaged in R&D, you're probably going to see the 700 adopt a couple of features from the 721 in the near future. There are several factors that I have looked at that have convinced me that I am not going to mess around with the extractor on this rifle. First and foremost is that without putting out alot of money for a mod to fix it or putting in a sub-standard, but workable part; is just not what I am willing to do with my late father's gun that was handed down to me. The reason I am looking for another rifle is that I want to keep this Rem 721 as original when my dad gave it to me for a family keepsake. Forget everything I said about modifying this rifle - I must have missed the family heirloom portion of your problem statement.
No where in any of my posts have I alluded to that I knew what I was doing. Just asking questions and wanting to know information about precision rifles. I never claimed to be a gunsmith or anything of the sort. I play around doing some of it but ONLY on my rifles, my little hobby. I believe if you can't fix it you should not be using it. I have built both of my AR's and they are great little rifles that shoot just fine. I am sure they out-shoot me. Am I a gunsmith NO, just like fixing/building MY OWN rifles.
I am not looking to do any mods to this rifle at all, hence my OP and asking questions about precision rifles.
Thank you for your time and information Peregrino and most of all, Thank you for your service. It's all good. When you get it, enjoy your new Rem 700 in 30-06 or 300WM or 300 WSM or whatever - and remember - I was serious when I said survival is about the "high percentage" shot. And if you do need to use your father's rifle, a 700 bolt assembly can be made to work in a 721.

Comments embedded in your quote.

[TrapLine]

I'm also in the market for a mid-longrange hunting rifle and have decided on the caliber, .300 but not the platform. Though I am leaning toward a Remington 700.

If it is not a problem, I would be interested to find out what your final choice is and what the range report is.

[Team Sergeant]

TS,
Take a look at the Tikka T3 rifles, they are great values, and a really good general action. I like the T3 over a Rem 700 any day. If you want to go a few steps up, the Sako TRG comes in 300WM and is one of the best rifles available.
Justin

I've done quite a bit of reading concerning the Sako TRG, and it's looks like a great rifle. That said don't you think I'd look a little funny hunting elk in Montana with it? :)

[TrapLine]

My brother recently purchased the T3 in .300 Win Mag. I like the action and it shoots much better than I can, which is not saying a lot. I have been looking at the T3, the Remington 700 and also the X-Bolt to replace a model 70 I have had some problems with. I am also trying to determine whether to go with a 30-06 which the model 70 is, or to move to the .300 or .300 WSM. This thread has been very insightful and I look forward to more info from guys with a lot more time behind the trigger than I will ever have. Thanks.

[incarcerated]

I have been looking at the T3, the Remington 700 and also the X-Bolt to replace a model 70 I have had some problems with.


Consider a new Douglas XX Premium Air Gauged barrel for your Model 70 from these people:
http://www.itdcustomgun.com/index.html
Good work, at a reasonable price.

[badshot]

PM'd

[Team Sergeant]

A couple of points need to be made when discussing precision rifles. Purchasing such an instrument is like purchasing a Lamborghini or Formula One race car. If you cannot push them to their limits why purchase them in the first place? Some will just because they are some of the finest machines on the market and they have the means to make the purchase, but again, they are not trained to drive them and can/will only do so on public streets.

Same can be said for precision rifles, if you cannot shoot a sub minute of angle, every time, at 100m, 200m & 300m then you need not purchase such a high end instrument. What you need is to take that same money and attend a marksmanship class. Allow me to reiterate what I've said before, 99.99% of people cannot outshoot off the shelf rifles/pistols. These same individuals routinely purchase high end rifles and pistols thinking they will just shoot better....... brilliant idea.

Marksmanship is like learning to golf, you don't become good without putting in the weeks, months & years of training and practice. And you don't become great without a few years of experience.

As Peregrino mentioned, "survival is about the "high percentage" shot" that is a shot that you can make each and every time. If you must move to a comfortable distance to do so, so be it. This is why snipers/hunters stalk their targets, to identify and to make a high percentage shot. Unlike hunters military snipers usually work in pairs the reason is the same, to achieve that high percentage shot. I've always said that after a certain distance the kill is not the snipers but the spotters. The sniper is merely imputing the spotters data and pulling the trigger.

Consistency is the name of the game. Ever watch a "pro" golfer address the ball? A great long range shooter does the same thing each and every time. The steady position, grip, stock weld, sight alignment, sight picture, breath control, trigger squeeze, non-firing elbow, all of this deals with internal ballistics; before the bullet is launched. Then there's external ballistics, everything that impacts on that same bullet after it's launched, bullet coefficient, wind, humidity, air density, temperature, angle to target, altitude etc. Then there are terminal ballistics , what happens when that bullet strikes an object.

My point, you don't need that fancy rifle if you cannot drive it/push it to its limits. If you understand everything I just posted above, great you have a good general understanding of marksmanship whether you can employ all that was stated above is altogether another matter.

[WRMETTLER]

This is the "rifle" that set the record of 3.04" at 1000 yds. A water cooled Kreiger barrel chambered for 300 Ackley Improved.
How much do you think this machine cost?

Buffalobob: How'd you like to carry this little honey into the woods for a long shot?

[Interesting]

I really liked what The Reaper had to say. I think that is sound principle. I have decided on the Rem 700 in 30'06. I might put a synthetic stock, for durability and longevity and still do not know what type of optic to go with, more research.
My plan is to get the rifle and shoot, shoot and shoot some more to learn the rifle. Once I get it down a bit, then I am going to take a class. I think going this route the rifle will out-shoot me for some time. Once I get that far, we can talk about how to make more rifle with what I have. Any ideas on a good optic that is weather-resistant and will be good for the platform that I have decided on. Not looking to break the bank but I do know you get what you paid for, so quality, dependability and durability is paramount. I can upgrade later when I get that far.
My whole intent in starting this thread was to just find a good basic platform that any newbie, such as myself; could get and start working with to become proficient with. With all the info that has come in, it has helped me decide and to watch myself not get caught up in the, getting more rifle than I can handle syndrome. That is exactly why I posted it here, I know there are hunting forums out there, but even they have the arm chair hunters with their opinions and false ideas.
May be a little late in life to start doing this but hey what the heck, you only live once.
Thanks guys.

[Peregrino]

This is the "rifle" that set the record of 3.04" at 1000 yds. A water cooled Kreiger barrel chambered for 300 Ackley Improved.
How much do you think this machine cost?

Buffalobob: How'd you like to carry this little honey into the woods for a long shot?

As usual when discussing marksmanship records it's relatively easy to find out that your record is yesterday's news. Check this one out.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2010/09/matt-kline-shoots-2-815-record-at-1000-yards-with-300-wsm/

[Gene Econ]

I really liked what The Reaper had to say. I think that is sound principle. I have decided on the Rem 700 in 30'06. I might put a synthetic stock, for durability and longevity and still do not know what type of optic to go with, more research.
My plan is to get the rifle and shoot, shoot and shoot some more to learn the rifle. Once I get it down a bit, then I am going to take a class. I think going this route the rifle will out-shoot me for some time. Once I get that far, we can talk about how to make more rifle with what I have. Any ideas on a good optic that is weather-resistant and will be good for the platform that I have decided on. Not looking to break the bank but I do know you get what you paid for, so quality, dependability and durability is paramount. I can upgrade later when I get that far.
My whole intent in starting this thread was to just find a good basic platform that any newbie, such as myself; could get and start working with to become proficient with. With all the info that has come in, it has helped me decide and to watch myself not get caught up in the, getting more rifle than I can handle syndrome. That is exactly why I posted it here, I know there are hunting forums out there, but even they have the arm chair hunters with their opinions and false ideas.
May be a little late in life to start doing this but hey what the heck, you only live once.
Thanks guys.

Interesting:

30-06? Be prepared to break the bank, abuse yourself for no reason, and spend far more time to become proficient.

The 30-06 became obsolete when the .308 came out. The .308 became obsolete when the .260 Remington came out.

Take a look at the .260. Half the recoil, better selection of bullets for all purposes, far better external ballistics capabilities and I believe better terminal ballistics capabilities -- provided you use the right bullet. Mostly, half the recoil and better exterior ballistics than the 0-6 or .308.

Gene

[mojaveman]

Interesting:

30-06? Be prepared to break the bank, abuse yourself for no reason, and spend far more time to become proficient.

The 30-06 became obsolete when the .308 came out. The .308 became obsolete when the .260 Remington came out.

Take a look at the .260. Half the recoil, better selection of bullets for all purposes, far better external ballistics capabilities and I believe better terminal ballistics capabilities -- provided you use the right bullet. Mostly, half the recoil and better exterior ballistics than the 0-6 or .308.

Gene

Interesting about going to a smaller caliber.

Do you have any strong opinions on the .243 Winchester?

[Team Sergeant]

Interesting:

30-06? Be prepared to break the bank, abuse yourself for no reason, and spend far more time to become proficient.

The 30-06 became obsolete when the .308 came out. The .308 became obsolete when the .260 Remington came out.

Take a look at the .260. Half the recoil, better selection of bullets for all purposes, far better external ballistics capabilities and I believe better terminal ballistics capabilities -- provided you use the right bullet. Mostly, half the recoil and better exterior ballistics than the 0-6 or .308.

Gene

Hey Gene, how come I never heard of the .260???

[Peregrino]

Gene - He said "survival" not Creedmor! :p Lot more meat on an elk than an antelope and you don't have to be so picky about shot placement with a .30. :munchin

TS - Depending on what you want to do you might want to educate yourself. .260 is a really nice round for a lot of reasons. (Though that changes from day to day too. Norm Crawford has been using 6.5x284 - very similar to the .260 - for a while and even he's starting to experiment in the 7mm range.) I'm having a .260 upper built for my DPMS lower. I expect it to be a competitive 1000 yd. gas gun. I'm still going to stick with the .30s for "survival", especially after seeing that 2.815″ record at 1000 yards with a 300 WSM. Not bad for a 10 shot group.

[Gene Econ]

Hey Gene, how come I never heard of the .260???

TS:

Not sure except that you most likely stay more focused on military or LEA requirements.

A .260 is basically a .308 necked down to 6.5mm. Just another modification of what is basically an extremely fine cartridge design.

Half the recoil, much better exterior ballistics than the .308 or 06, just as wide a range of bullets as found with the .30 calibers, same barrel life. They are pretty forgiving in terms of loads too and offer great accuracy potential without much if any effort in terms of loading. Overall a good efficient combination of case capacity and bullet diameter.

Guys use it for hunting medium and large game as well as competitive purposes.

Easy to make the brass by necking up .243 brass. Or you can just buy the brass. Nothing really new about the cartridge so companies make factory loads just as readily as you find for the .308.

Gene

[Gene Econ]

Gene - He said "survival" not Creedmor! :p Lot more meat on an elk than an antelope and you don't have to be so picky about shot placement with a .30. :munchin

TS - Depending on what you want to do you might want to educate yourself. .260 is a really nice round for a lot of reasons. (Though that changes from day to day too. Norm Crawford has been using 6.5x284 - very similar to the .260 - for a while and even he's starting to experiment in the 7mm range.) I'm having a .260 upper built for my DPMS lower. I expect it to be a competitive 1000 yd. gas gun. I'm still going to stick with the .30s for "survival", especially after seeing that 2.815″ record at 1000 yards with a 300 WSM. Not bad for a 10 shot group.

PG:

Roger but you have to hit the animal to kill it. I imagine there won't be too much practice given a seven pound 30-06 and that performance will suffer as a result of the beating the fellow will take. Also, the 30-06 is a waste of cartridge length. Good for the days when you had to put that much powder into a case to get some speed but not today with the modern powders.

Gene

[longrange1947]

Dam it has been fun watching this one. :munchin :D

[greenberetTFS]

Dam it has been fun watching this one. :munchin

Well LR1947,I was waiting on your comments....... :D This is as good as any........... ;)

Big Teddy :munchin

[fng13]

I also have been wanting to get a new bolt gun and was considering this rifle:

http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/centerfire/model-700/model-700-sps-tactical-aac-sd.aspx

It seems to have some features of a higher end gun i.e. faster twist rate, threaded, adjustable trigger and is going for $600-650 places that still have them. The threaded feature is important to me but may not be important to others.

Would this be a good choice to get into more "precision" shooting? (Precision is in quotes because my level of precision is not going to be anywhere near what members of this board would call precision)

I don't have much experience with bolt guns other than .30-06 and my 03a3 causes me to pull my shots after a while of it beating up on me (could be the stock more so than the cartridge).

.260 rem is interesting I had heard it is less susceptable to wind drift but does it supress well?

Would .260 subsonice perform similarly to .308 subs? I assume not because it is much lighter. This is only a concern because I was originally looking at a .308because of the ability to get subsonic factory ammo.
I could not find much data on subsonic .260 so I assume it is not a good idea or has not been developed much.

[koz]

fng, the SPS-AAC version is a good rifle. The biggest flaw in the gun is the Hogue stock. They have a lot of flex in them. But the gun is still very capable of MOA groups.
I was at the range the other day and a buddy shot a .413" group (5 shot) with his. The only mod he has is a McMillan stock (and some prototype ammo...) :cool:

[longrange1947]

Teddy, I usually stay out of these as there is no one good answer. I hate to say depends but that is a fact.

Here are some of my thoughts though, for this discussion. (Not addressed at Teddy and not a lecture, only random thoughts.)

30.06 – Obsolete big case designed for slow burning powders that required more than required today. Case will still require more powder to get the same velocity with the same bullet in the .308. This means more recoil and more money burning down the barrel. While the 30.06 will shoot a heavier bullet than the .308, so will a 300 Win Mag, 300 WSM, and the 300 Ultra. You pay for it by shorter barrel life but if the weapon is going to kick you, you may as well get better velocities. Higher recoil means fewer rounds fired for practice without degradation of shooting principles. I know, some will claim to be recoil resistant. Fine go for the big ones.

.308 – This is a better round than the 30.06 and a good .30 cal round for mid range work. Lower recoil, and decent ballistics helps this round but again it is becoming obsolete with newer rounds coming out or the increase in the availability of bullets in other calibers.

7mm.08 – Good round with 7mm ballistics, light recoil allowing for longer practice periods for proficiency.

6.5mm – This is a very good ballistics and again lower recoil allowing greater range time without the induced problems of heavy recoil. The bullets available now are greater than before and they have been the round of choice by many long range shooters. Depending on the loads and cases the round is good for long range and big game.

Between the two stands the 6.8 or .270. This is again a solid performer with many years of development, good solid ballistics, and light recoil. The 270 is also good for long range and from Deer to Elk. An older round though.

As stated I usually stay out of these as it is the same with the best rifle. There is none. It depends and that sounds like a cop out but is the truth. It will depend on a bunch of things, range you will be shooting, target you will be shooting, will you carry the weapon, how far will you carry it, what position will you shoot from most, how much money do you have, how much do you plan to practice?

My 2 cents only guys and I liked Gene’s answer with the 260 as a good solid overall weapon. Remember less recoil longer practice sessions.

I will mention that this is a shortened version as I got finished I forgot to copy the post before I hit the send button. You guys know what happened, I had spent too much time on the answer and the site booted me and that lost my original post. I am doing what I should have the first time and doing this in Word to cut and paste into the site.

[The Reaper]

Not to be naysaying my smarter brothers, but if you are not going to be reloading, walk into the local WalMart or small gun store and see what calibers you can find.

I would love to have a .260 or 6.5, but they are not always easy to get ammo for. You can get factory match grade .308 in a couple of bullet weights from more than one manufacturer right off the store shelf.

One thing about the .308 is that you can always find it (along with .30-'06, .30-30, 7.62x39, .270, .243, and 5.56/.223 in any store with more than five or six centerfire rifle calibers. You can also get bulk quantities of cheaper surplus ammo for it as well.

If you plan to reload, an oddball or wildcat round is not a bad idea.

Just my .02, YMMV.

TR

[Team Sergeant]

Not to be naysaying my smarter brothers, but if you are not going to be reloading, walk into the local WalMart or small gun store and see what calibers you can find.
I would love to have a .260 or 6.5, but they are not always easy to get ammo for. You can get factory match grade .308 in a couple of bullet weights from more than one manufacturer right off the store shelf.

One thing about the .308 is that you can always find it (along with .30-'06, .30-30, 7.62x39, .270, .243, and 5.56/.223 in any store with more than five or six centerfire rifle calibers. You can also get bulk quantities of cheaper surplus ammo for it as well.

If you plan to reload, an oddball or wildcat round is not a bad idea.

Just my .02, YMMV.

TR

This is also part of my thinking, if I forget my ammo, or run short I always stop at a store, anywhere in the USA and pick up .300 WM.

[longrange1947]

Not to be naysaying my smarter brothers, but if you are not going to be reloading, walk into the local WalMart or small gun store and see what calibers you can find.....................

..........................

Just my .02, YMMV.

TR

TR - That is part of the questions based on depends, and why I try to stay out of these. :D

[Interesting]

You know, I have been watching this thread and reading all the very experienced information that is being offered. Again, as far as caliber; I know there are better rounds out there and all but like The Reaper stated, I can basically go anywhere in my neck of the woods and pick up a box of 30'06. Not so with some of the other calibers mentioned. Yes, they may or are better rounds out there but I am weighing all the factors into this.
What longrange1947 had to say has gotten me to think a bit. .308 vz .30'06. I really do not want to go out of the normal at this point. I have fired .30'06 and .270 and though there is a small difference not enough to make me want to NOT practise. Again, I have not been behind one all day, so after longer periods of time behind one, my mind may change.
Is there a round out there that is a good round that I would be able to walk into my local wally world and pick some up? Just want to know because last time I was there, I did not see any of the prior mentioned calibers on the shelf.
I appreciate all the advise and knowledge coming in, but please remember this is a starting point for a newbie and is subject to progression.
Thanks,

[badshot]

Have to sadly agree with longrange1947. I use Hornady 06 150gr SST Interlock Light Magnum (at least until my stockpile runs out) with 3100fps at the muzzle and after 5-7 rounds it requires deliberate concentration not to flinch at trigger break (beats the hell out of you), something I am not used to. My .243 (100gr LightMag Interbond) has the same arc to 500yrds (within an inch) and spends a lot more time on the range/field and produces impressive groups. Also, 06 is the only center fire rifle of mine with a recoil pad, including other .30s. With all that said it shoots flat and quarter sized groups (if you're not flinching), 100yrd +1.4, 500 yrds -37.8 at a price (was 40 bucks a box and tweaked shoulder). The newer less brutal Superformance has more of an arc and is still pricey.

[craigepo]

I went to Guns and Ammo's ballistics site, and pulled some numbers. Here's some comparisons of some different calibers. The numbers I found were the best bullets in relatively similar weights, per caliber. Rifles zeroed at 200 yards.

Muz Vel. 500yd vel Muz.Energy 500yd Energy 500 meter traj.

.308 Winchester
(150gr) 3000fps 1942fps 2997lbs 1256lbs -41.4 inches
(180gr) 2740fps 1870fps 3000lbs 1395lbs -47.1 inches

.300 Win Mag
(150gr) 3135fps 2146 fps 3273lbs 1534lbs -35.7 inches
(180gr) 3100fps 2214 fps 3840lbs 1960lbs -34.9 inches
(200gr) 2930fps 2030 fps 3810lbs 1840lbs -40.4 inchesl

7mm rem.mag
(150gr) 3110fps 2200fps 3222lbs 1612lbs -34.8inches
(175gr) 2854fps 2011fps 3166lbs 1573lbs -42.1inches

.260 Rem
(125gr) 2950fps 2010 fps 2320lbs 1075lbs -40.6inches
(140gr) 2750fps 1810 fps 2352lbs 1021lbs -47.2inches

For giggles:
M193 5.56mm
(55gr) 3250fps 1755fps 1289lbs 376lbs -63.09(100 yard zero)

That 180 grain .300 win mag round is a beast.

[rthorne57]

I've been following this thread a bit and it looks like the QPs (and other experienced hands) have led you on the right track.

Since you've choosen the Rem 700 action (excellent choice), I would recommend the .308 over the 30-06. You will find a much greater variety of off the shelf match ammo in 308 vs 30-06 for shooting groups. If you want your rifle to shoot the best, you need to feed it as such. And knock-down hunting ammo is plentiful in both rounds.

Most importantly, DON'T OVERLOOK THE BREAK-IN PROCESS!

[Justinmd]

Very good points, to be sure. TR made a good point about ammo availability, the OP mentioned survival, and what is better for survival than a universal cartridge. Gene's mentioned .260 which is a great cartridge but has not made the .308 obsolete any more than .338 has made .50 or 300WM obsolete. The .260 suffers from lack of factory loadings and a weak selection of brass, there is a neck donut issue to contend with when forming .260 from .243. It is hard to beat the bullet availability in the 6.5mm though, until you look at the BC's of the 7mm bullets, haha. I have wanted to build my own .260 for quite some time but every time I think about it, the .284 Win (parent case of 6.5-284) just beats it out. Then I think about reloading for another cartridge, and I go with .308, haha.

I realize there's a lot of love for the Remington 700, but it's not the end all-be all. In fact one I bought recently is not very impressive at all. The AAC version has a threaded barrel and a 10 twist. Unless you are shooting subsonics, you don't need 10 twist, in fact Berger says that for its 210gr VLD only an 11 twist is required. And that's for a VLD, with a secant ogive and a long overall profile. The Hogue stock is...far less than a good stock. I can make my stock touch the barrel with only light pressure, actually it has a small patch that's constantly touching the barrel due to the stock not being straight. My point here is don't overpay for a slightly tweaked 700.

I have written a primer on the 700 which looks at its pros and cons. I will be posting it soon on my website, after some further review. It's not as in depth as Stuart Otteson, but I can include things which he did not.

TS, you mentioned looking funny hunting with a TRG, but it's a very popular hunting rifle in Europe, and my buddy's former TL bagged an Elk with a TRG in 338 last year. The TRG does have its downsides, but for a mass produced rifle it is very hard to fault.

A note on break in, or the fallacy thereof...I would suggest doing a google search for "objective research on barrel break-in procedures". Basically, barrel break-in is unnecessary with a good quality barrel. I didn't break in my TRG, nor my custom .243 AI, and both have produced several sub .5 moa 5 shot groups, (basically as good as I can hold).

Justin

[jw74]

I've read thru this thread and am amazed at how much free education this sight provides. Tonight i was invited on a November boar hunt in central Calif and accepted the invitation. Would a .260 be enough for boar? am I adequately equipped if I buy a 700 in .308? this would be my first boar hunt and I don't want to show up ill prepared or looking like a mall ninja.. please advise..

[fng13]

Very good points, to be sure. TR made a good point about ammo availability, the OP mentioned survival, and what is better for survival than a universal cartridge. Gene's mentioned .260 which is a great cartridge but has not made the .308 obsolete any more than .338 has made .50 or 300WM obsolete. The .260 suffers from lack of factory loadings and a weak selection of brass, there is a neck donut issue to contend with when forming .260 from .243. It is hard to beat the bullet availability in the 6.5mm though, until you look at the BC's of the 7mm bullets, haha. I have wanted to build my own .260 for quite some time but every time I think about it, the .284 Win (parent case of 6.5-284) just beats it out. Then I think about reloading for another cartridge, and I go with .308, haha.

I realize there's a lot of love for the Remington 700, but it's not the end all-be all. In fact one I bought recently is not very impressive at all. The AAC version has a threaded barrel and a 10 twist. Unless you are shooting subsonics, you don't need 10 twist, in fact Berger says that for its 210gr VLD only an 11 twist is required. And that's for a VLD, with a secant ogive and a long overall profile. The Hogue stock is...far less than a good stock. I can make my stock touch the barrel with only light pressure, actually it has a small patch that's constantly touching the barrel due to the stock not being straight. My point here is don't overpay for a slightly tweaked 700.

I have written a primer on the 700 which looks at its pros and cons. I will be posting it soon on my website, after some further review. It's not as in depth as Stuart Otteson, but I can include things which he did not.

TS, you mentioned looking funny hunting with a TRG, but it's a very popular hunting rifle in Europe, and my buddy's former TL bagged an Elk with a TRG in 338 last year. The TRG does have its downsides, but for a mass produced rifle it is very hard to fault.

A note on break in, or the fallacy thereof...I would suggest doing a google search for "objective research on barrel break-in procedures". Basically, barrel break-in is unnecessary with a good quality barrel. I didn't break in my TRG, nor my custom .243 AI, and both have produced several sub .5 moa 5 shot groups, (basically as good as I can hold).

Justin


Do you think if I can get that AAC for 600-650 that that is a good price?
I want the threads and twist because I do eventually want to shoot subs out of it with a can. Mostly just for fun but I was reading about guys hunting (white tail) with subs and had some success.

As far as the stock, I have heard nothing but bad things about it. A buddy of mine has an AICS he said he will sell me but if that turns out to be too much what about just a HS precision.

[koz]

Do you think if I can get that AAC for 600-650 that that is a good price?
I want the threads and twist because I do eventually want to shoot subs out of it with a can. Mostly just for fun but I was reading about guys hunting (white tail) with subs and had some success.

As far as the stock, I have heard nothing but bad things about it. A buddy of mine has an AICS he said he will sell me but if that turns out to be too much what about just a HS precision.

I think that's a good price. I'd jump on it for $600 for sure.
AICS is heavy but I like them. I would try it out - people either love it or hate it - at least get behind the stock to see how it feels. I stay away from HS precision other than the ones that come standard on Remington rifles. They hired the Ruby Ridge sniper and I have a personal problem with that. Also they are thin shelled with foam filler - I've cracked more than one. Take a look at Manner's stocks. They are really strong and a solid company.

[Peregrino]

I think that's a good price. I'd jump on it for $600 for sure.
AICS is heavy but I like them. I would try it out - people either love it or hate it - at least get behind the stock to see how it feels. I stay away from HS precision other than the ones that come standard on Remington rifles. They hired the Ruby Ridge sniper and I have a personal problem with that. Also they are thin shelled with foam filler - I've cracked more than one. Take a look at Manner's stocks. They are really strong and a solid company.

I will second the Manners stock recommendation. MOO - I like them better than the equivalent McMillans. NTM better price, QC (quality control), and CS (customer service).

[rthorne57]

On a custom Krieger barrel or aftermarket equivalent, fire lapping can be over looked because they are done by hand in shop. If he's going to buy a stock 700 then it would be wise to break it in. Fine steel particles and burs left in the barrel need to be smoothed out, and not just cleaned or shot out after 20 straight rounds. The benefits don't only contribute to accuracy but extended barrel life as well. In closing, it's obviously a controversial subject that can be debated and barrels have come a long way in the past 20years, but it doesn't hurt to do it. Just as modern vehicles can tread nearly 10k miles before needing an oil change, but why take the risk?

[Combat Diver]

I've read thru this thread and am amazed at how much free education this sight provides. Tonight i was invited on a November boar hunt in central Calif and accepted the invitation. Would a .260 be enough for boar? am I adequately equipped if I buy a 700 in .308? this would be my first boar hunt and I don't want to show up ill prepared or looking like a mall ninja.. please advise..

You've got a good caliber, just use a good bullet and place in where in needs to do its job. Have fun on the hunt and good luck.

CD

[fng13]

deleted.

[weekend warrior]

I own a Steyr Scout (Jeff Cooper Edition) in .308 caliber and would highly recommend purchasing one. I would consider it precise yet practical. It is capable of shooting into 2 minutes of angle or less (4") at 200 yards/meters (3 shot groups). .308 is a widely available cartridge. Go to this website to find out more http://www.steyrscout.org/project.htm

[rthorne57]

I own a Steyr Scout (Jeff Cooper Edition) in .308 caliber and would highly recommend purchasing one. I would consider it precise yet practical. It is capable of shooting into 2 minutes of angle or less (4") at 200 yards/meters (3 shot groups). .308 is a widely available cartridge. Go to this website to find out more http://www.steyrscout.org/project.htm

Not results I would be happy with if I wanted a "precision" rifle, especially after spending that much. The Scout has it's 'cool factor' but not recommended for his intended purpose. Not to mention, the forward mounted scope (which is basically a handgun scope) won't provide the magnification he needs to make 1000yd+ hits accurately, or at least pleasing to him. He's going down the right path.

Cool gun though. I have the knock-off Savage 10 Scout with the accu-stock and trigger and a Nikon 2.5-8x28

[MVP]

A friend of mine once said;

"If your rifle is not a 308 and you can't hit what you are aiming at with de-linked machinegun ammunition you are a pretender". ;)

MVP

[HOLLiS]

A friend of mine once said;

"If your rifle is not a 308 and you can't hit what you are aiming at with de-linked machinegun ammunition you are a pretender". ;)

MVP

Thanks for the morning laugh. I have a Ruger mk 77 in .308, When I changed the scoped and sighting it in with basic hand loads, it clover leafed three times. I has sort of bragging to a friend about it when we when shooting. That time I brought some EU Nato surplus to shoot, I think the best I could do at 50 yards was a six inch group. Might have been Spanish or Portuguese ammo. Murphy did it to me again. :mad:

[jw74]

Thanks for the morning laugh. I have a Ruger mk 77 in .308, When I changed the scoped and sighting it in with basic hand loads, it clover leafed three times. I has sort of bragging to a friend about it when we when shooting. That time I brought some EU Nato surplus to shoot, I think the best I could do at 50 yards was a six inch group. Might have been Spanish or Portuguese ammo. Murphy did it to me again. :mad:

Is this because .308 rifles are more inconsistent depending on round quality? I'm considering getting a 700 in .308.

[HOLLiS]

Is this because .308 rifles are more inconsistent depending on round quality? I'm considering getting a 700 in .308.

I don't think caliber has anything to do with it, just very poor quality control on the ammo.

[rthorne57]

Is this because .308 rifles are more inconsistent depending on round quality? I'm considering getting a 700 in .308.

Stay away from surplus ammo on a bolt action set-up, it's pointless unless you own a Nagant or similar. Same goes for steel cased or any Russian/Serbian crap (Monarch especially) that's not to SAAMI spec. It's tempting because it's so cheap, but working as a range officer I've seen far too many malfunctions and even catistrophic failure due to these loads.

[The Reaper]

Ray, do you have some special qualifications you have not mentioned in your Intro that qualifies you to be dispensing advice among QPs with more than a few hundred years of collective shooting experience?

Don't mind a new perspective, but I would like to know where it is coming from.

Particularly if it is not based on personal experience.

TR

[rthorne57]

Ray, do you have some special qualifications you have not mentioned in your Intro that qualifies you to be dispensing advice among QPs with more than a few hundred years of collective shooting experience?

Don't mind a new perspective, but I would like to know where it is coming from.

Particularly if it is not based on personal experience.

TR

TR,

"Special" qualifications? No, sir. I'm currently working fulltime as a range officer, and have been for 4.5 years, watching and learning from other people's mistakes 8 hours a day. You see just about every combination of mistakes and misguided stupidity you could think of. When our inhouse gunsmith speaks to customers about their guns, I listen as well. I also have experience owning, shooting and troubleshooting/maintaining a variety of firearms over the past decade as well.

I don't mean to come off with a "Listen to me because I'm right" display of posts or even think that my knowledge is at par with anyone on this board. I'll try to word my comments better or bite my tongue(or fingers ha) the next time I feel the need to type.

[The Reaper]

Not trying to stifle your comments, you had not provided the creds in your Intro prior to offering your opinions here.

I would encourage new members to provide any special credentials or experience prior to jumping into a discussion with both feet. In fact, it might be a good idea for new members to search, read, and avoid posting at all for a while on PS.com before offering any opinions.

No one here knows everything, but the difference is that most of the posters on this thread are vetted QP shooters and have considerably more than ten years of firearms experience. In fact, there are a couple of sniper instructors, several long range competitors, and a number of pretty experienced hunters as well as a bunch of QPs who are veterans of the two-way range offering advice on this thread.

Again, we encourage members to post in areas where they have validated expertise, not telling anyone not to post. I learn something new from my gunsmith every time we talk, for example.

For the OP, or anyone else asking for advice, defining your situation and parameters of what you are asking for with as much specificity as you can in your initial request for assistance is much more helpful than dragging it out over several pages. If you want a hunting rifle, a battle rifle, a precision marksmanship rifle, or a survival rifle, say so and lay out the who, what, when where, why, and what experience and resources you have already. This helps frame the response and quickly address the specific question with the minimum of wandering around the issue. It is hard to specify a precision hunting survival rifle and suggest a caliber without a lot of info. There will have to be compromises as you approach perfection for any of the specific needs. IMHO, the original suggestion of a Rem 700 or Winchester 70 in .308 with good optics and some mods and tweaks will be the best compromise of precision, hunting, and survival, with max bang for the buck.

TR

[Gene Econ]

Is this because .308 rifles are more inconsistent depending on round quality? I'm considering getting a 700 in .308.

jw:

Any rifle of any caliber will be more inconsistent if the quality of the ammunition and particularly the bullet and or the design of the bullet is poor.

One thing I have found with the .308 is that it is very forgiving in terms of loads. You won't get magical half minute with them for the most part but you will get very consistent 3/4 or one minute with about any decent bullet and load.

That doesn't mean you should expect performance from cheap imported ammo. Only that about any load you use with a decent bullet will give you good consistent performance.

LR1955

[deeplipceo]

I personally like the rem 700 mainly repair parts are readily available as well as upgrades, and we cant forget the 5r

[jw74]

jw:

Any rifle of any caliber will be more inconsistent if the quality of the ammunition and particularly the bullet and or the design of the bullet is poor.

One thing I have found with the .308 is that it is very forgiving in terms of loads. You won't get magical half minute with them for the most part but you will get very consistent 3/4 or one minute with about any decent bullet and load.

That doesn't mean you should expect performance from cheap imported ammo. Only that about any load you use with a decent bullet will give you good consistent performance.

LR1955
I appreciate the insight. it seems like a good multi purpose round to me. I'm pretty new to rifles/hunting and if I can part w/ a SW 686 that was my first handgun, then I'll order the 700 (there are worse dilemmas;)). Thanks again for sharing your knowledge.

[Paslode]

Interesting and JW,

I was looking for a more precise rifle that I could target shoot and hunt with. I wanted something with a heavier caliber, a heavy barrel, light weight and something I could reasonably navigate through brush with .

You might look at a Rem 700 LTR. It was relatively inexpensive and has performed well for me out to 400-500 yds.

[mojaveman]

I appreciate the insight. it seems like a good multi purpose round to me. I'm pretty new to rifles/hunting and if I can part w/ a SW 686 that was my first handgun, then I'll order the 700 (there are worse dilemmas;)). Thanks again for sharing your knowledge.

If you decide to buy a new Remington 700 please do yourself a favor and take a close look at it before you take it home from the store. I bought a Remington 700 CDL in .243 from Bass Pro Shops and was a little disapointed. The one that I looked at on the shelf was immaculate. When I went to pick mine up after the mandatory ten day wait I just grabbed the box and took it home. Upon close inspection I noticed that there was no "S" stamped at the rear of the receiver to mark the position of the safety, the groove cut into the stock that meets the load/ejection port in the receiver did not line up properly, and finally, the corners of the machined cuts that make up the load/ejection port were off by about .020". After a little "at home" gunsmithing the rifle looks fine but for $800.00 I should not have had to do that.

Anyway, a Remington 700 is an accurate rifle with quality ammuniton. I usually shoot Federal or Hornady factory 100gr BTSPs through it.

[jw74]

If you decide to buy a new Remington 700 please do yourself a favor and take a CLOSE look at it before you take it home from the store. I bought a Remington 700 CDL in .243 from Bass Pro Shops and was a little disapointed. The one that I looked at on the shelf was immaculate. When I went to pick mine up after a ten day wait I just grabbed the box and took it home. Upon closer inspection I noticed that there was no "S" stamped at the rear of the receiver to mark the position of the safety, the groove cut into the stock that meets the load/ejection opening in the receiver did not line up, and finally the corners of the machined cuts that make up the load/ejection opening were off by about .020". After a little at home gunsmithing the rifle looks fine but for $800.00 I should not have had to do that.

Anyway, a Remington 700 is an extremly accurate rifle with quality ammuniton. I usually shoot Federal or Hornady 100gr BTSPs through it.

Good to know- I was looking at Bass pro too. Thanks for the heads up.

[rthorne57]

... I went to pick mine up after a TEN day wait..

JEEBUS! Hearing that makes me love Texas even more :D The only wait is the 2min background check call

[mojaveman]

JEEBUS! Hearing that makes me love Texas even more :D The only wait is the 2min background check call

I'll tell ya, Kalifornia is going downhill fast. I might just pack up my arsenal and move to the Lone Star state. Spent some time at Bliss/El Paso and kind of liked it.

[Peregrino]

I'll tell ya, Kalifornia is going down the toilet fast. I might just pack up my arsenal and move to the Lone Star state. Spent some time at Bliss/El Paso and kind of liked it.

I certainly wouldn't recommend moving to El Paso without the arsenal! :p

[Team Sergeant]

I certainly wouldn't recommend moving to El Paso without the arsenal! :p

Or air support....:rolleyes:

[PSM]

I'll tell ya, Kalifornia is going down the toilet fast. I might just pack up my arsenal and move to the Lone Star state. Spent some time at Bliss/El Paso and kind of liked it.

I highly recommend SE Arizona! ;)

Pat

[badshot]

I highly recommend SE Arizona! ;)


Air Support already available...except the Wildlife Refugee, you're on your own there. Oh, and stay off the Geronimo Trail at night, and... :D

All kidding aside (not really), if you can get away from the BS, some of the best hunting in the country...Coues, Trophy Bear, and some healthy cats among others. Personally I like it there more than Montana...The Chiricahua's along with the three mountain ranges that come from the south of the border are zoo's, MI guys know at least one good one. Just remember anything green (except conifers) will cause pain when handled and little things that move cause more pain. More so than in deserts of CA.

Mental note: Don't put shoes or clothes on before checking what's inside. Have duct tape for removal of reminders having handled green things.

[ZonieDiver]

I highly recommend SE Arizona! ;)

Pat

If you need any help building your bunkers, let me know! :D

I'm "done" in north central AZ, and will be heading south to check out some things in early Oct!

[jw74]

I have a potential trade lined up. Getting rid of my wheel gun safe-queen and getting a Remington 700 SPS Tactical in .308. The barrel is a bit short at 20" and it has a hogue stock. The purpose of the rifle is for boar. the area where I will do most of my hunting is a private ranch with a lot of brush and ravines and it is unlikely for a shot to be over 300 yds. Its an even trade except I'll have to buy a scope. Good trade or am I getting rid of one gun that doesnt serve a purpose for another?
Thanks in advance
JW

[Blitzzz (RIP)]

Good trade, that rifle for a wheel gun...no brainer.
More than adequate for what you plan to use it. Ballistically very little difference in short and long barrel. 308 is fine enough for hogs. Scopes don't have two be too big either. A good "Fixed 6" should be fine. Blitzzz

[PSM]

If you need any help building your bunkers, let me know! :D

I'm "done" in north central AZ, and will be heading south to check out some things in early Oct!

Bunker in place and communication trenches dug. The bunker is a two-holer...er, uh, I mean dual turret. ;)

Pat

[Blitzzz (RIP)]

I like the Savage.
Just my Zwei Centavos.

[Iraqgunz]

I live in the west valley. Hit me up when you are back in town.

If you need any help building your bunkers, let me know! :D

I'm "done" in north central AZ, and will be heading south to check out some things in early Oct!

[Iraqgunz]

Wrong area.

[jw74]

I searched and was derailed by over an hour of interesting reading on other topics. I'd like to get some educated opinions about the Ruger Scout rifle or scout rifles in general ( like savage. Steyr seems overpriced to me)..
I was considering it as a handy gun for pig hunts. I'm new to it but I've gone several times in the past 6 months, and the manzanita brush is hell on the finish of my sako 270. Also, I like the iron sights. the longest shot I've had would have been in the 250 yd range and I thought the scope on the sako was unneeded.
Are scout rifles trying to be too many things and failing at all of them, or are they useful tools?
Ruger has pics on their sight, but I didn't want to post a link here.

[ZonieDiver]

I highly recommend SE Arizona! ;)

Pat

What?!?! You've been here "five minutes" and you're already selling real estate?:D

[PSM]

What?!?! You've been here "five minutes" and you're already selling real estate?:D

Just need trigger pullers for back up. ;)

Pat

[The Reaper]

I searched and was derailed by over an hour of interesting reading on other topics. I'd like to get some educated opinions about the Ruger Scout rifle or scout rifles in general ( like savage. Steyr seems overpriced to me)..
I was considering it as a handy gun for pig hunts. I'm new to it but I've gone several times in the past 6 months, and the manzanita brush is hell on the finish of my sako 270. Also, I like the iron sights. the longest shot I've had would have been in the 250 yd range and I thought the scope on the sako was unneeded.
Are scout rifles trying to be too many things and failing at all of them, or are they useful tools?
Ruger has pics on their sight, but I didn't want to post a link here.

I think you need another thread.

This one is for precision rifles.

TR

[jw74]

Understood

[frostfire]

Gentlemen, I'd like to solicit your input on these 7.62 platforms. I'm on the fence, finding myself in analysis paralysis. Cheap, good, fast. Pick two. Unfortunately that does not help much here. Thus, perhaps an owner's personal account can help. I don't want it to turn to any maker bashing like in other forum. Let me know what has worked for you and that's good enough. Likewise, fire away if my considerations towards to or away from one over the other are just off-base and not factual.

Purpose: Further hone marksmanship edge (Longer distance, higher recoil, higher need for strict adherence to fundamentals). 3-gun when targets are 300m+, Steel Safari, High Power iron and F-class. Pretty much punching paper and metal. No hunting. Probably no two-legged kind either. I don't care for rifle weight. If it's too heavy, I just need to hit the gym more. I like functional accuracy more than benchrest. If I can hold 3/4 to 1 MOA in any position, it's a great day. It's nice to know your weapon system can't be blamed, though.

GAP-10
Boasting 3/4 minute. One user reported 1/4 MOA (no pic). Still waiting for more range reviews to come
Single Stage Match trigger, tuned to 3 1/2 pounds
1-11 5R Bartlein Stainless Match barrel, 5000 barrel life
Standard gas block, performance with suppressor TBD
$2432 with 5% AD discount, Badger Ordnance 1.125 inch scope rings included!
2-4 months ship time!

PredatAR
0.9 to 1 MOA report from manufacturer. As low as 0.6" at 100yards, 1" at 400 yards from one user. Still waiting for more range reviews to come
Two-Stage 4.5lbs Geissele trigger
LW-50 stainless steel, 1/11.25 twist, lightweight-profiled (unfit for suppressor? Groups opens up as pencil barrel heats up? 10,000 rds barrel life
Standard gas block, performance with suppressor TBD
$2370.25 with 5% AD discount
3-4 weeks ship time

OBR
1/2 minute solid documentations from PD and military users.
Two-Stage 4.5 lbs Geissele trigger
LW50 Stainless steel, 1/11.25 twist, 10,000 rds barrel life
Adjustable gas block, works well with suppressor
$2695 with 10% AD discount (I know some of you are getting insane discount, lucky b*******)
3-4 weeks ship time

Llooks like GAP is best value, predatAR is best compromise, and OBR is best performance. OBR requires high cheek/chin weld though ( picture of OBR used in Sniper competition last year shows cloth cheek rest in addition to stock cheek riser) Maybe just nit-picky but my cheek is like a 3rd hand to me. Speaking of nit-picky, Larue has the PRS stock for $242.25, GAP for $210 :p Hey, that's still a box of match .308 :D

If these are not considered precision rifle, I apologize for hijacking this thread, and I'll start a new one. Thank you for your inputs.

[Dusty]

If we're spending your money, let's go with the OBR. ;)

[Blitzzz (RIP)]

All the chosen rifles above look well to do what you want. Shooting from any position is a great concept, and very practical. the heavier rifle may cause some problems standing off hand when maybe holding on target for extended time.
The two AR frames would allow better all round control. You may look at the Kal-Tec RFB in the Target version claims accuracy out to 1200meters and the carbine to 600 meters.
Bull pup design over all length 40" with a 32" barrel.. Looks really good.

[Buffalobob]

I seriously doubt that the barrel life will be what is claimed with a degree of accuracy needed to be competitive.

My hunting rifles all have the trigger set at 2#. A 3.5-4.5 # trigger for F-class is a poor situation. If mostly you are going to shoot run and gun type matches and only occasional F-class then OK, you know up front you are giving away points with a stiff trigger in F-class matches. I don't shoot run and gun stuff so I know little about the requirements.

I know nothing about the last two, but GA Precision has a big reputation that has not always delivered the agreed upon quality and because so many people have GAP guns a person is a fool to say in public that you don't always get what you pay for so you never read about the poor quality guns that were shipped. I saw a guy DNF over a broken firing pin first time out in what was obviously poor judgement on pin selection by GAP That said, I can truthfully say that there are horror stories for nearly every gunsmith I know. I do not know the current delivery status of any of them but I would not be surprised if it was double what they advertise.

5R barrels are good barrels with a proven track record for accuracy.

Knowing totally nothing about the quality of the other two guns I would prefer to go with GAP as George has a reputation for making things right if there is a problem.

[Peregrino]

frostfire - You're thinking way too hard. The three rifles you've selected are quality pieces – and way more expensive than necessary. That is unless you’re buying them for the name and associated bragging rights. The two rifles pictured are both DPMS .308s. As shown (including optics) either one is approximately the same price as any one of your choices (without optics). Shooting Sierra 175s @ 2600fps they are both .75MOA rifles – the black one with an 8” group at 1000yds, the FDE one at 200yds (have to take it out and zero the new scope at a longer range to find out what it’ll do at 600). You don’t need brand name unobtanium/unaffordium to have an accurate rifle. The price difference is a lot of training ammo. Especially since you'll still have to get optics. MOO, YMMV. :munchin

[gits]

Just do yourself a favor and pick up the OBR.

[MVP]

GAP has built one complete gun for me and barreled another action.

The complete rifle was a Sniper Country Limited Edition (SCLE) and it is nothing but top drawer work.

The barrel job went a little different. I asked the scope mount holes be opened for #8 screws while it was there. When I got it back the front two holes were oval/oversized and would barely hold the screws. I could have increased them to #10s but that would have required opening up the holes on the base as well. Ended up soft soldering the base to the receiver the way the Germans do with all scope mounts. Once assembled in a McMillan HTG stock rifle now shoots as well as the SCLE.

MVP

[mark46th]

JW- The 20" barrel should be fine for hunting in your area. I have a PSP with a 24"barrel in .308. I use it to hunt pigs out of King City, just South of you. I have a Weaver 4X on mine that works just fine.

[Ramirez]

Taking my precision rifle to a 1000 yard range today. For me this is a first, I've only found a place to shoot 650 yards prior to this. It's a "range day" for those who have entered a match for the following weekend. Going to test out the new nightforce I picked up. I'll say the picture is clearer and more crisp than the Leupold, but the leupy sure seems easy to use. Point, turn to yardage and fire. The 1MOA per click puts it all in one revolution as well. I'm sure it's just a learning curve, and so far don't regret the upgrade.

[Dusty]

Taking my precision rifle to a 1000 yard range today. For me this is a first, I've only found a place to shoot 650 yards prior to this. It's a "range day" for those who have entered a match for the following weekend. Going to test out the new nightforce I picked up. I'll say the picture is clearer and more crisp than the Leupold, but the leupy sure seems easy to use. Point, turn to yardage and fire. The 1MOA per click puts it all in one revolution as well. I'm sure it's just a learning curve, and so far don't regret the upgrade.

Nice shooter, Bro. Looks like a good 1000-yard gun...

[Gene Econ]

Gentlemen, I'd like to solicit your input on these 7.62 platforms. I'm on the fence, finding myself in analysis paralysis. Cheap, good, fast. Pick two. Unfortunately that does not help much here. Thus, perhaps an owner's personal account can help. I don't want it to turn to any maker bashing like in other forum. Let me know what has worked for you and that's good enough. Likewise, fire away if my considerations towards to or away from one over the other are just off-base and not factual.

Purpose: Further hone marksmanship edge (Longer distance, higher recoil, higher need for strict adherence to fundamentals). 3-gun when targets are 300m+, Steel Safari, High Power iron and F-class. Pretty much punching paper and metal. No hunting. Probably no two-legged kind either. I don't care for rifle weight. If it's too heavy, I just need to hit the gym more. I like functional accuracy more than benchrest. If I can hold 3/4 to 1 MOA in any position, it's a great day. It's nice to know your weapon system can't be blamed, though.

GAP-10
Boasting 3/4 minute. One user reported 1/4 MOA (no pic). Still waiting for more range reviews to come
Single Stage Match trigger, tuned to 3 1/2 pounds
1-11 5R Bartlein Stainless Match barrel, 5000 barrel life
Standard gas block, performance with suppressor TBD
$2432 with 5% AD discount, Badger Ordnance 1.125 inch scope rings included!
2-4 months ship time!

PredatAR
0.9 to 1 MOA report from manufacturer. As low as 0.6" at 100yards, 1" at 400 yards from one user. Still waiting for more range reviews to come
Two-Stage 4.5lbs Geissele trigger
LW-50 stainless steel, 1/11.25 twist, lightweight-profiled (unfit for suppressor? Groups opens up as pencil barrel heats up? 10,000 rds barrel life
Standard gas block, performance with suppressor TBD
$2370.25 with 5% AD discount
3-4 weeks ship time

OBR
1/2 minute solid documentations from PD and military users.
Two-Stage 4.5 lbs Geissele trigger
LW50 Stainless steel, 1/11.25 twist, 10,000 rds barrel life
Adjustable gas block, works well with suppressor
$2695 with 10% AD discount (I know some of you are getting insane discount, lucky b*******)
3-4 weeks ship time

Llooks like GAP is best value, predatAR is best compromise, and OBR is best performance. OBR requires high cheek/chin weld though ( picture of OBR used in Sniper competition last year shows cloth cheek rest in addition to stock cheek riser) Maybe just nit-picky but my cheek is like a 3rd hand to me. Speaking of nit-picky, Larue has the PRS stock for $242.25, GAP for $210 :p Hey, that's still a box of match .308 :D

If these are not considered precision rifle, I apologize for hijacking this thread, and I'll start a new one. Thank you for your inputs.

FF:

None of the three will be very good at everything you want. Once again you are trying to find one rifle that will be good for everything and you will end up with one rifle that isn't very good for anything.

I would caution you concerning the notion that working out and practice will overcome elemental ergonomic design problems with rifles. It won't so a rifle that is barrel heavy and uses a prone stock isn't going to work for you off hand, kneeling, or seated. Thus, your overall intent of becoming a better marksman will not be fulfilled if you think this way.

Also, the .308 is basically an obsolete cartridge that is holding on only because the military still uses it. Only in competitive events where the rules require a .308 is it competitive. Expensive to load, mediocre accuracy by today's standards, and mostly high recoil all lead to problems if your intent is to become a better marksman.

I would say that even if you handload, you will throw a bit more than $.60 down the barrel each shot with a decent .308 load. If you buy in bulk and get drop shipments from Sierra. If not, look at $.8 per shot. You are better off with a .260 Remington. Half the recoil, 1/4 less cost, same barrel live, superior ballistics capabilities.

My suggestion is that you decide what you want the rifle for. If it is to hone your marksmanship skills, the .308 is not the way to go. If that is your intent, get a very good .223.

If your intent is three gun or High Power, look at 3 Gun and High Power web sites or visit their competitions and see what the winners are using. If your intent is those sniper competitions, see what their winners are using. You will see that they are all using rifles / cartridges / sighting systems that are focused on their specific sport.

So, decide what you want.

Gene

[Blitzzz (RIP)]

Hurt me to the heart. .280 maybe, Just an old 308 guy who has been studying the 6.5s with interest.

"Also, the .308 is basically an obsolete cartridge that is holding on only because the military still uses it. Only in competitive events where the rules require a .308 is it competitive. Expensive to load, mediocre accuracy by today's standards, and mostly high recoil all lead to problems if your intent is to become a better marksman. "

308 isn't likely to be obsolete before the 260 is. Just my opinion not an argument.
as to accuracy in1977 I put 10 rounds 308 in a 14inch group at 1250 meters, at Ft Bragg with my M-21 and 3x9 ART I...I just like 308 even in 30-06.
6.5s are looking pretty good though. Not bad advice for a new shooter.

[frostfire]

frostfire - You're thinking way too hard. The three rifles you've selected are quality pieces – and way more expensive than necessary. That is unless you’re buying them for the name and associated bragging rights. The two rifles pictured are both DPMS .308s. As shown (including optics) either one is approximately the same price as any one of your choices (without optics). Shooting Sierra 175s @ 2600fps they are both .75MOA rifles – the black one with an 8” group at 1000yds, the FDE one at 200yds (have to take it out and zero the new scope at a longer range to find out what it’ll do at 600). You don’t need brand name unobtanium/unaffordium to have an accurate rifle. The price difference is a lot of training ammo. Especially since you'll still have to get optics. MOO, YMMV. :munchin

Peregrino Sir,

touché. I'd be a liar if pride of ownership is not one of the factor. It's like buying P30 vs. G17 :D Ok then if those three are way too expensive, how much is the 8" group at 1000 yards rifle without optics? Do you take paypal?

FF:

None of the three will be very good at everything you want. Once again you are trying to find one rifle that will be good for everything and you will end up with one rifle that isn't very good for anything.

I would caution you concerning the notion that working out and practice will overcome elemental ergonomic design problems with rifles. It won't so a rifle that is barrel heavy and uses a prone stock isn't going to work for you off hand, kneeling, or seated. Thus, your overall intent of becoming a better marksman will not be fulfilled if you think this way.

Also, the .308 is basically an obsolete cartridge that is holding on only because the military still uses it. Only in competitive events where the rules require a .308 is it competitive. Expensive to load, mediocre accuracy by today's standards, and mostly high recoil all lead to problems if your intent is to become a better marksman.

I would say that even if you handload, you will throw a bit more than $.60 down the barrel each shot with a decent .308 load. If you buy in bulk and get drop shipments from Sierra. If not, look at $.8 per shot. You are better off with a .260 Remington. Half the recoil, 1/4 less cost, same barrel live, superior ballistics capabilities.

My suggestion is that you decide what you want the rifle for. If it is to hone your marksmanship skills, the .308 is not the way to go. If that is your intent, get a very good .223.

If your intent is three gun or High Power, look at 3 Gun and High Power web sites or visit their competitions and see what the winners are using. If your intent is those sniper competitions, see what their winners are using. You will see that they are all using rifles / cartridges / sighting systems that are focused on their specific sport.

So, decide what you want.

Gene

Gene Econ Sir,

as always, thank you for the education. Yes, I do look for a platform of compromise. Many told me my AK would suck at 2 gun, but I often beat those whose rifle + optics costed almost 10x as my system. The user, not the tool. Based on your previous advices, I do see where you're coming from though when it comes to pursuit of the highest level, the rifle must work for you.

When it comes to high power, I am following the footsteps of that Marine Recon coach of mine. After getting HM with .223, he went on to compete with M1A. If I'm not mistaken, I think he legged out or got the P100 with that rifle. The first time I got to use the M1A, I thought I had a laser for offhand, but my sitting and prone were complete mess. Since then, I have a personal vendetta with the .308 and wish to one day have second-nature, completely comfortable, proficiency with it. Thus, the interest in caliber regardless of the specific discipline. One of the platforms above is actually offered in .260 Remington.

Now, not doubting anything you wrote, but I searched everywhere for 260 Remington match that's cheaper than .308 match ie Federal Gold Match, Blackhills etc.. and I found zilch. Midwayusa, ammonow, ammunitiontogo, aimsurplus, cheaperthandirt, and son on. They all start at $30 for 20rds. On the other hand, some "match" .308 start at $16, $19 etc per 20 rounds. So please steer me to the place with 1/4 cost. Right now .308 seems to be the most economical second to the .223. Is reloading the only way to go?

Speaking of marksmanship, the other day I was helping to terminate the stereotype that officers can't shoot, and that AMEDD officer and marksmanship is an oxymoron. I helped 2 lady officers, one from not being able to zero to shooting 31/40 and another from 11/40 to 29/40. One told me to **** off, so that's that. I like the fact that one of them shares the perspective that regardless of job description, if one wears the army uniform and sees one self as a soldier, shoot-move-communicate should be a second-nature proficiency. Once again, all those shooting/coaching skill you, master Rick, and many others invested in me have not gone to waste. Train the trainer.:)

[Ramirez]

I went to the 1000 yard range today to prepare for my match next week. The "1000"yard berm was really 1075. So I had to come up another 5MOA. For me that was the hardest shot. 700-800 felt like nothing compared to trying to hit the 1075 target. I'm also pretty new at all this, and reading the wind is a big part. I'd miss a shot, hold to correct and the wind would change. All part of the game though I guess.


Ryan


Here is a link to a few pictures I took.

http://imgur.com/a/mYcs0#duxhI

[Buffalobob]

Take the stupid sling off and screw out the rear swivel if it is a stud. Go and buy you an expensive rear bag and fill it with heavy sand. Take off the teenie bopper flippers and put on the original lens covers that came with the scope. Move the bipod legs off the mat and into the dirt. Tell the imbecile next to you to not leave ammo lying in the hot sun.

[Dusty]

Where's your shooting socks?:confused:

[Ramirez]

Take the stupid sling off and screw out the rear swivel if it is a stud. Go and buy you an expensive rear bag and fill it with heavy sand. Take off the teenie bopper flippers and put on the original lens covers that came with the scope. Move the bipod legs off the mat and into the dirt. Tell the imbecile next to you to not leave ammo lying in the hot sun.



I'm not sure I understand what you mean about the sling and the swivel stud. Can you suggest a rear bag, I don't like the one I have at all. Flippers are staying :p, Also I can move my bi-pod legs into the dirt, but I thought that's what those straps were for.

Thanks in advance.

Ryan

[Dohhunter]

Get rid of those cursed flip covers. The number of times I've laid open my eyebrow with that fucking red finger of death while crouched in some contorted position with a Whitetail in front of me is > 2. Then again, I'm the stupid one for not removing them when that number reached 1.

[koz]

Can you suggest a rear bag, I don't like the one I have at all.
Thanks in advance.

Ryan

I bought the TAB gear bag but I really don't like it. It has the airsoft pellets as filler and it's too rigid - can't get the rifle to seat in it. I opened it and got rid of the pellets and filled it with bean bag filler (get it a Hobby Lobby, or some type of craft shop). It's 100% better now IMO.

[The Reaper]

Reloading tumbler media (crushed walnut shells) will work well and does not weigh too much.

I have seen guys with fixed ranges who did not have to move them much use lead shot filled bags. Guarantee that they will not blow away.

TR

[Buffalobob]

The sling stud on the stock will catch and cause disturbances during recoil. It has to be removed in order for the rifle to recoil the exact same way each time.

As far as rear bags go, there are two uses. For competition where weight is no issue I use a Protektor heavy bottom rabbit ear with heavy sand. Lots of people like the cordura model. For hunting do what Koz said.

http://protektormodel.com/

A shooting sock is what Koz said

http://www.longrangehunting.com/gearshop/rear-shooting-bag.html

[Buffalobob]

Reloading tumbler media (crushed walnut shells) will work well and does not weigh too much.

Plus when it is wet it does NOT weigh more. :D

[Dusty]

I've always just used an OD sock 3/4 full of rice, tied off, for a shooting sock.

I switched over to long-grain brown rice when I got over 200 lbs, though. ;)

[Dohhunter]

I switched over to long-grain brown rice when I got over 200 lbs, though.

LOL

[MVP]

My shooting socks are pink. They serve to distract the competition out of their "bubble";)

[mojaveman]

I like the Savage.
Just my Zwei Centavos.

Me too. After owning a Remington 700 for a long time I decided to try a Savage. I think it was something about the name and logo, but anyway, I bought a 10FP and was very impressed with the accuracy. Some folks have reservations with Savage because of the bolt design/construction but they do shoot well. They've come a long way in recent years.

[Ramirez]

Installed the badger knob ( clears the scope much better) and the new AICS has no bottom sling mounts. They are all on the side. Took it to the range yesterday and really like the change. It feeds very well from the AI mags. You can tell why they are the standard. I hope the changes benifit me in my upcoming match.

[BigJimCalhoun]

The sling stud on the stock will catch and cause disturbances during recoil. It has to be removed in order for the rifle to recoil the exact same way each time.

As far as rear bags go, there are two uses. For competition where weight is no issue I use a Protektor heavy bottom rabbit ear with heavy sand.

I only have one rifle and I need the sling/swivels on mine for hunting, but I took what you said under advisement and made sure the swivels were not in contact with anything and I also added a rear bag. I was able to shoot my best ever - slightly under 2 inches @ 200 yards. I think this result eliminates my rifle as a source of my previous inaccuracies.

[Ramirez]

My last two groups from the rifle w/ the new AICS and trigger were under 1/2 MOA. .388 and .408 @ 100 yards.

[MVP]

Ramierez,

Remington originally designed the flats on the barrel for add-on weights. As I recall you can use the adhesive versions sold for balancing wheels. The added advantage is you can move the weights around to adjust the overall balance of the rifle.

BTW: Keep the scope covers but reposition the scope as far forward as possible for your most likely shooting position so you do not have the objective near your eye.

:munchin

MVP

[Ramirez]

Ramierez,

Remington originally designed the flats on the barrel for add-on weights. As I recall you can use the adhesive versions sold for balancing wheels. The added advantage is you can move the weights around to adjust the overall balance of the rifle.

BTW: Keep the scope covers but reposition the scope as far forward as possible for your most likely shooting position so you do not have the objective near your eye.

:munchin

MVP

Are you speaking to the flat countor of the barrel? Do I want anything hanging off my barrel? I would think that would defet the free floating that I've got going with the AICS.

Thanks

Ryan


edit, the barrel will be the next thing replaced on this rifle.

[MVP]

Just lay the weights in rows along the three flats. Should not contact the stock if you use only one row per flat.

MVP

[Ramirez]

Just lay the weights in rows along the three flats. Should not contact the stock if you use only one row per flat.

MVP



The channel has a lot of room left. I'm sure I could fit two barrels in there if I needed :p I like the weight the way it is, I don't shoot it off hand enough to weight it down more for balance. I will say it feels more balanced with this chassis vs. the B&C stock on the rifle before. I'm not sure how good I can get the groups down much more than I already have, but I"m going to try with hand loads pretty soon. Then it's off to a new barrel.

[MVP]

adding the weights out near the muzzle will slow the movement (drift across the target) creating a steadier hold. Out near the muzzle you can also double-up the rows stacking one on top of another.

M.

[Ramirez]

adding the weights out near the muzzle will slow the movement (drift across the target) creating a steadier hold. Out near the muzzle you can also double-up the rows stacking one on top of another.

M.



Do you use these? I think I've seen something similar on handguns, is this the same idea? Kinda of like a USP match ( think tomb rader and don't slap me for that)

[MVP]

Unfortunately none of my guns have the flats. The adhesive on the weights should be sufficient but you could wrap the barrel/weights with some camouflage bow tape to make sure they don't fall off if you struck something with the barrel. As a reserve you could also put a bunch of the weights in your "sand sock" so if one ever fell off you would have a replacement.

BTW: Guns with light round barrels can be weighted with lead wire used for soldering. The wire is wrapped around the barrel and held with the camouflage tape. (Old SOF trick)



M.

[Ramirez]

Unfortunately none of my guns have the flats. The adhesive on the weights should be sufficient but you could wrap the barrel/weights with some camouflage bow tape to make sure they don't fall off if you struck something with the barrel. As a reserve you could also put a bunch of the weights in your "sand sock" so if one ever fell off you would have a replacement.

BTW: Guns with light round barrels can be weighted with lead wire used for soldering. The wire is wrapped around the barrel and held with the camouflage tape. (Old SOF trick)



M.


Learn something new every day.


Thanks

[Dusty]

Are you speaking to the flat countor of the barrel? Do I want anything hanging off my barrel? I would think that would defet the free floating that I've got going with the AICS.

Thanks

Ryan


edit, the barrel will be the next thing replaced on this rifle.

Which barrel will you be using?

[Ramirez]

Which barrel will you be using?



I'm not sure just yet. It's just going to be a 20 inch heavy barrel. I think my gunsmith sells shilen and krieger.

[koz]

I'm not sure just yet. It's just going to be a 20 inch heavy barrel. I think my gunsmith sells shilen and krieger.

Go with the Krieger - or if he can get a Bartlein, they are very nice too. You can't go wrong with either of these.

[Dusty]

I'm not sure just yet. It's just going to be a 20 inch heavy barrel. I think my gunsmith sells shilen and krieger.

"Heavy barrel"-good idea. IMO, the heavier the barrel, the more accurate it is. (to a certain point)

I had a Shilen fluted put on mine one time. Too light.

Post a pic when you get it replaced, eh?

[Ramirez]

"Heavy barrel"-good idea. IMO, the heavier the barrel, the more accurate it is. (to a certain point)

I had a Shilen fluted put on mine one time. Too light.

Post a pic when you get it replaced, eh?



Gotta build up some funds, but I'm hoping to soon. I shoot the damn thing so much, I never have any money!

[craigepo]

"Heavy barrel"-good idea. IMO, the heavier the barrel, the more accurate it is. (to a certain point)


Ugg. I hate heavy barrels. They are ok if you are going to shoot from one spot. Unfortunately, I have found that the older I get, the more difficulty I have in hauling my fat butt up the side of a mountain. I hate to make it even harder by lugging an extra couple pounds of barrel.

My #3 Lilja is extremely light, and is about 1/2 minute of angle, with approximately 50 rounds through the barrel. Of course, I am sure it would have problems with anything over 5 rounds. But, if I'm firing over 5 rounds without a chance to cool the barrel off, it will be time for me to fix bayonets anyway.

I'm curious to know what barrels some of the long-range guys on here have on their guns.

[Blitzzz (RIP)]

Ugg.
I'm curious to know what barrels some of the long-range guys on here have on their guns.

I've got a 27.5 inch Shilen on an 8mm Mauserand a Krieger on M1A1. Don't Bench shoot and have 500 meter hits standing off hand with the Springfield M1A1.

More rounds shot over short time make all barrel hot.
Note here to hunters, shoot your zeros with Cold barrels one shot let cool then the next etc. a cold barrel shot zero is what will be the shot that get the game. All the shooters probably know this...except one...I'm not saying who...

[gits]

I got a rifle made by Surgeon in a AICS with a 22 inch Krieger barrel with an MTU Contour and can shoot dime sized groups at a 100 meters. Running around anywhere from 2641-2679 FPS depending on the lot of 175gr SMKs. Then again I had a team mate who was shooting +2600 Fps out of his gun with a Bartlein 18 inch barrel :eek: with his 175gr hand loads.

[Buffalobob]

For long range work I use long barrels and high BC bullets

Elk rifle is a fluted #8 Lilja 34 inches long with a brake to make it 36 inches long. 7mm-338 Lapua Improved. Because of the weight and extreme velocity it is a very easy rifle to shoot and has killed 7 animals beyond 500 yards.

Deer/Antelope rifle has a heavy NBRSA barrel 30 inches long with brake for 32 inches and has two pounds of lead in the butt stock to weigh a total of 18 pounds. 240 Wby and it has killled six animals beyond 500 yards

F-class rifle Rem 40X has a 28 inch heavy palma barrel - 308 Win. Don't normally use if for long range hunting but under 500 yards it has killed a lot of animals

Goof off rifle- Ruger #1 has a 28 inch barrel with final taper to 0.75 inches. 257 Wby. Killed only one animal beyond 500 yards.

A couple of pictures of the elk rifle after being used by the kids to shoot antelope. You will notice it has no sling on it although it has flush cups and I have a special sling for it.

[Dusty]

For long range work I use long barrels and high BC bullets
Deer/Antelope rifle has a heavy NBRSA barrel 30 inches long with brake for 32 inches and has two pounds of lead in the butt stock to weigh a total of 18 pounds. 240 Wby and it has killled six animals beyond 500 yards



I noticed a big improvement when I weighted the buttstock on my 700. I used a couple pounds of buckshot and Gorilla Glue, and it balanced the whole rifle really well. I've never hit a target past 924 yards with it, though...

[Buffalobob]

I've never hit a target past 924 yards with it, though...

Around home it is so hilly and wooded that I never kill anything beyond 500 yards. The longest shot I have made in Maryland is 450 yards. I only can make the long range shots out in the west where you can see forever.

[Dusty]

Around home it is so hilly and wooded that I never kill anything beyond 500 yards. The longest shot I have made in Maryland is 450 yards. I only can make the long range shots out in the west where you can see forever.

I shoulda put that in pink.

[Buffalobob]

Perhaps you should work on your stalking skills.

I am good enough to stalk a sleeping elk and kill it with a bow. The story is in the "fur" section.

I am also good enough to stalk NVA and kill them with hand grenades. They were just all sitting around their cook fires eating breakfast when we threw 20 frags in on them. It certainly scrambled their fish heads and rice. :D If you ever visit my facebook page there is a picture of me taken the day afterwards.

Running a recon/sniper team was a real mix of face to face/up close and personal and never even knew we were there/nor heard it coming.

[mark46th]

I have the stock 26 inch barrel plus 2 inches or so of muzzle brake on my Remington 700 .338 Lapua. I only have about 30 rounds through it so far. I want to practice with it for awhile before making any modifications. I will take it with me to Wyoming in October...

[Buffalobob]

There is a theory (folklore) of heavy barrels that I have some serious doubts about. It is the idea that a heavy barrel does not heat up as quickly as a thin barrel and is therefore superior. I know a little about heat transfer, but am not a a specialist in it. My understanding of the situation is different from the theory (folklore). Heat comes from the burning powder inside the barrel and the inside metal gets hottest and there is a gradient established to the outer surface of the barrel controlled by a coefficient based upon the metal. At the outside of the metal surface and the inside of he metal surface there is a metal to air interface of heat transfer and another coefficient is involved. The job is to get the inside metal surface cooled as quickly as possible and that means getting heat transfer away from it. A thick barrel stores heat in the metal and distributes it outward thereby lowering the inside surface temperature while simultaneously there is a transfer of heat from the inner surface of the barrel to any air inside the barrel. However, a point will be reached when the storage capacity of the metal in a heavy barrel is maxed out and it is as hot as a thin barrel. It then takes the thick barrel much longer to cool than the thin barrel because it has more stored heat and the air metal surface area interface is not all that much more. So after a few shot, a thin barrel is actually as good as a thick barrel as far as heat management goes.

My opinion on heat management may not be correct and it is only an opinion being as I have never actually tried to solve the equations but only perused the coefficients needed to do so.

The real advantage of the thick barrel is stiffness which reduces harmonic vibrations during the bullet traveling down it.

[Ramirez]

The real advantage of the thick barrel is stiffness which reduces harmonic vibrations during the bullet traveling down it.


Which would provide more accurate shots correct?


Thanks for the write up. I really enjoy the reading on this site.


I just ordered 200 rounds of 175g SMKs from http://www.southwestammunition.com

I've heard they are some of the best factory rounds you can buy. I was invited to a 900 yard range next week. I can't wait to go try it out.

[Dusty]

Which would provide more accurate shots correct?


Thanks for the write up. I really enjoy the reading on this site.


I just ordered 200 rounds of 175g SMKs from http://www.southwestammunition.com

I've heard they are some of the best factory rounds you can buy. I was invited to a 900 yard range next week. I can't wait to go try it out.

Learn to read the wind.

[The Reaper]

Surface area allows radiation of heat.

Greater surface area (and greater mass) equals faster cooling.

Formula for area of a cylinder (barrel) will show this.

Thicker barrels may be stiffer, but all have harmonics, and those will likely change as the barrel heats up.

Some shorter or lighter barrels may shoot just as well as a thick one for a few rounds.

For most rifle hunting, barrel diameter is probably irrelevant. For a belt fed, it is critical.

TR

[GratefulCitizen]

Surface area allows radiation of heat.

Greater surface area (and greater mass) equals faster cooling.

Formula for area of a cylinder (barrel) will show this.

Thicker barrels may be stiffer, but all have harmonics, and those will likely change as the barrel heats up.

Some shorter or lighter barrels may shoot just as well as a thick one for a few rounds.

For most rifle hunting, barrel diameter is probably irrelevant. For a belt fed, it is critical.

TR

Painted the block and tinware of my hotrod's engine flat black because of the better thermal emissivity.
It assists in cooling.

Curious to know if such things have been done with machine gun barrels.
(Not sure if non-insulating paints are made which will stay on in those temperature ranges).

[Ramirez]

Learn to read the wind.



That's something I try and do every time I walk outside of the house. I need to pick me up a wind meter, to see if my guesses are right. You should see my wife laugh at me. The wind will pick up and i'll be standing there like a tard. She says it looks like I was lost in thought.

[Dusty]

That's something I try and do every time I walk outside of the house. I need to pick me up a wind meter, to see if my guesses are right. You should see my wife laugh at me. The wind will pick up and i'll be standing there like a tard. She says it looks like I was lost in thought.

One of the best snipers I know "sees" it, like a "fish swimming".

[Buffalobob]

I need to pick me up a wind meter, to see if my guesses are right.

This is about as good of an article as I have seen for reading the wind for hunting purposes. You should copy the indicators to your computer and then take them to the field with you. For competition, there are other methods which usually involve angles of the wind flags or watching mirage by adjusting your parallax knob.

http://www.longrangehunting.com/articles/reading-wind.php

The thing about wind meters is that they only measure the wind where you are. They do not measure wind out in the valley nor over at the target.

[Ramirez]

One of the best snipers I know "sees" it, like a "fish swimming".



one day:lifter

[Team Sergeant]

One of the best snipers I know "sees" it, like a "fish swimming".

After you've watched enough "trace" you'd know that's exactly what it looks like, "fish swimming".

[Dusty]

After you've watched enough "trace" you'd know that's exactly what it looks like, "fish swimming".

I watch trace every time I spot-I can see it pretty easily most of the time. What I can't see is wind. I can see the effects of it-that's as close as I get.

I believe Suttles actually sees the wind.

[MVP]

Dusty,

Put yor spotting scope lsightly out of focus then you will see the rising heat waves. It looks like the "mirage" that rises off the road on a hot day. Despending on the velocity and direction of the wind the waves will rise at varying angles. Guess I am a little late in advising you to attend the unit level SOTIC...

MVP

[Dusty]

Dusty,

Put yor spotting scope lsightly out of focus then you will see the rising heat waves. It looks like the "mirage" that rises off the road on a hot day. Despending on the velocity and direction of the wind the waves will rise at varying angles. Guess I am a little late in advising you to attend the unit level SOTIC...

MVP

Oh, I know what you mean, and thanks for the advice.

I'm not talking about mirage, though-I guess I just am unable to explain what I mean.

This guy "sees" the wind. He says it looks like a "fish". Maybe he can explain it-I'm sure he still works out at Badlands...

[Ramirez]

I also did shot second match over the weekend. It was a "low light" match that started at 7PM and ended around midnight. I scored around the middle of the pack. That was a big improvement over the last match.(DFL) Having the AICS which fed well really helped. Also the new trigger was an upgrade.


:lifter

[Dusty]

I THINK I know what you are saying. Where you are at you may have 3-5 mph full value from the left, at 100 to say 200 yards it is 1/2 value coming from the right, at 200 to 400 zero value, 400 to 600 1/2 value from right then 600 to 800 full value from left. (example)

It that what you are trying to explain? BTW I am far from being SOTIC material just understand the theory. I have hunted with a guy that was an amazing shot. Like you said, he eyeballed everything and when he pulled the trigger on a deer it was head or neck only and long range ie 400+ yards. I never seen him miss although he said he occasionally did.

I guess. Might just be experience. Steve got signed off on a kill out past 1200 yards in Nam.

I just need to shoot more...;)

[Ramirez]

I picked up a new long range rig, dropped it in my AICS


Blue printed 700 Action
Shilen match barrel 1:10 twist #5 contour finished at 24"
Bolt spiral fluted with badger knob
Nightforce 20 MOA base.
Gretan firing pin Assembly.
Timney Trigger @ 2lbs.
Nightforce NXS 5.5-22x56


Took it out to 1000 yards yesterday. I was able to hit Clays out to 803 yards, @ 1010 I was hitting pretty close to them, but for me that was close enough.

The guys I was with could really read wind well and were helping me w/ wind calls. That's what I'm spending as much time as I can on. The scope pic is @ 1010 yards, you can hardly see the clays.

[Team Sergeant]

I THINK I know what you are saying. Where you are at you may have 3-5 mph full value from the left, at 100 to say 200 yards it is 1/2 value coming from the right, at 200 to 400 zero value, 400 to 600 1/2 value from right then 600 to 800 full value from left. (example)



And when you "see" trace from a bullet following that path it does indeed look like a "fish in the wind".

[Ramirez]

Watch this video and tell me which way the wind seems to be blowing. I felt a slight L -> R at my muzzle, but the mirage seemed to be showing a it R->L
I ended up holding 1 MOA right to make the shot. ( 1 MOA in the right hand side of my reticle) Must of been a stronger L->R down at the closer to the target, spin drift was also taken into account.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E39f0LJGwK0&feature=player_embedded


edit* It's easier to see the paint fly and impact in HD and full creen.

[Blitzzz (RIP)]

Watch this video and tell me which way the wind seems to be blowing. I felt a slight L -> R at my muzzle, but the mirage seemed to be showing a it R->L
I ended up holding 1 MOA right to make the shot. ( 1 MOA in the right hand side of my reticle) Must of been a stronger L->R down at the closer to the target, spin drift was also taken into account.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E39f0LJGwK0&feature=player_embedded


edit* It's easier to see the paint fly and impact in HD and full creen.
Looks to me your first shot was to the left of the target, which would be ccorrect if you were holding off on the right side of the reticle. If you move the dot over the target, you moved you barrel to the left of the target....

[Ramirez]

Looks to me your first shot was to the left of the target, which would be ccorrect if you were holding off on the right side of the reticle. If you move the dot over the target, you moved you barrel to the left of the target....




Maybe I mis spoke.
Here is a drawing speaking to my POA when I hit my target.

[alelks]

I've always just used an OD sock 3/4 full of rice, tied off, for a shooting sock.

I switched over to long-grain brown rice when I got over 200 lbs, though. ;)

Don't laugh but drop those into the microwave and they make GREAT heating pads. :D

[BryanK]

As a post-deployment present to myself I finally invested in a low-end precision rifle. It's a Remington 700 Police in .308 topped with a Nightforce NXS 5.5X22X50 with the MLR reticle. For mounts I got a pair of standard Badger rings with a 20 MOA EGW HD base and a Harris bipod.
I have a friend who operates a long range shooting school in central VA who offered to teach me the art of long range shooting, and at minimal expense. I figure this rig will be a good starting point for me, and I've already got her zeroed at 100yds (nickel sized group). Now I just need to tighten my groups up and get a drag bag because the pelican it's in now isn't really practical for shooting matches or anything :D

[badshot]

and get a drag bag because the pelican it's in now isn't really practical for shooting matches or anything :D

Nice rig, I personally like the shorter barrel's with a few exceptions.

Those Pelican cases are tuff, been using one as my dinner table the last few months, but light weight they ain't.

[longrange1947]

The Pelican is good for keeping your shooting gear in one spot and protects your weapon against bangs that shift zeros. I would stay with the pelican for matches. Have little use for drag bags.

My 2 cents. :munchin :)

[Ramirez]

I love my Pelican, I even got a mini one for my Springfield EMP.

I switched form .308 to 6.5 Creedmoor. I could not be more happy. I have around 700 rounds down the pipe, and the rifle is a laser! I've been shooting factory 140g AMAX to the tune of .3 MOA. At sealevel it takes 10 mils for a 1100 yard shot. I also feel like it really makes wind it's b1tch. During one of my matches we had a 30mph full value wind off the tower I was holding 3.5 mils at 700 yards.

That's 2mils less than my .308!:lifter

[badshot]

I love my Pelican, I even got a mini one for my Springfield EMP.

I switched form .308 to 6.5 Creedmoor. I could not be more happy. I have around 700 rounds down the pipe, and the rifle is a laser! I've been shooting factory 140g AMAX to the tune of .3 MOA. At sealevel it takes 10 mils for a 1100 yard shot. I also feel like it really makes wind it's b1tch. During one of my matches we had a 30mph full value wind off the tower I was holding 3.5 mils at 700 yards.

That's 2mils less than my .308!:lifter

6.5 is about the perfect round for reaching out (though many say its the 7mm) and making the hole bigger. As for factory rounds, I forgot which competition it was recently, but everyone had to use Hornady's 6.5 creedmoor's. For some reason, Hornady's seem to shoot tighter over any other factory round in almost every rifle I've tried them in, at least the Light Mag rounds (when they were in production). Even my Ruger M77 .30-06 made quarter sized groups at 100yrds.

Very Fine rig, mind if I ask the price tag on it and where you got it? When I get back to civilization I plan a doing some comp shooting, and the creedmoor is what I've been looking at.

[Ramirez]

6.5 is about the perfect round for reaching out (though many say its the 7mm) and making the hole bigger. As for factory rounds, I forgot which competition it was recently, but everyone had to use Hornady's 6.5 creedmoor's. For some reason, Hornady's seem to shoot tighter over any other factory round in almost every rifle I've tried them in, at least the Light Mag rounds (when they were in production). Even my Ruger M77 .30-06 made quarter sized groups at 100yrds.

Very Fine rig, mind if I ask the price tag on it and where you got it? When I get back to civilization I plan a doing some comp shooting, and the creedmoor is what I've been looking at.

I wish I knew what I paid for it. If you were to buy it all new it would run around $6,000 including the glass. I like to buy, sell, trade etc etc. I also picked up some parts off the prize tables of matches. I had Matt Parry of Parry Custom gun in Vici Oklahoma rebarrel it for me. I think he did a fine job of it. Here are the rest of the details of the rifle.

If I had time on my hands, I'd order one from George at GAP or Preston over at Surgeon rifles.


AICS 1.5 in OD green.
700 Short Action BluePrinted by Vandenberg Custom
Hart Heavy Varmint barrel chambered in 6.5 Creedmoor. by Matt Parry
Fluted bolt , bolt knob by MCR
Badger Bolt knob
Side Bolt stop/release installed by GAP
Cerakoate by GAP
Gretan firing pin Assembly
Timney Trigger #510 1.5-2lbs
Nightforce 20MOA base
Seekins low rings
Nightforce 3.5-15x50 F1 Mil/Mil
SKT Stock pack.
Atlas bipod w/ AICS spigot.
Tab Sling.

[badshot]

Thanks Ramirez for all the details, that's a fair price.

[Ramirez]

Thanks, I started a new build this weekend.

Surgeon 591

25inch Bartlein in 6.5 Creedmoor fluted Varmint/Sendero contour

AICS 1.5 w/ Viperskins.

surefire MB762-211c

Atlas bipod

Premier 5-25x56 w/ a Gen II XR.

[Ramirez]

Well it had a few changes, but here she is. I'm taking her out shooting during lunch. Can't wait to see how it preforms.

[Dusty]

Well it had a few changes, but here she is. I'm taking her out shooting during lunch. Can't wait to see how it preforms.

Purdy gun. :cool: Why'd you pick that caliber?

[Ramirez]

Purdy gun. :cool: Why'd you pick that caliber?


Hornady factory ammo!

[Dusty]

Hornady factory ammo!

Good reason. ;)

[Buffalobob]

The 6.5 Creedmore is about 100- 150 fps slower than the 260 Rem.

[Ramirez]

The 6.5 Creedmore is about 100- 150 fps slower than the 260 Rem.


What speeds are you getting out of .260?

My last gun w/ a 25 inch bbl was getting around 2800-2830 after 500 round down the tube. That was w/ factory 140 amax. I had around 1500 rounds from the same lot, so I'll have to check to see if the speeds have changed with the new lots.

It's a shooter though that's for sure. I can't wait to take it out to 1000+

[Buffalobob]

I have an XP in 260

http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30865

And I am having a rifle built in 260 just for hunting pigs in South Carolina. It will have a #2 taper 20 inch 8 twist barrel.

[Rob_Frey]

I've been using a Remington 700 SSDM with a 24" barrel and a Leupold 2.5 - 8 Vari-X III in .260 Rem. for deer hunting for about 11 or 12 years. There's not many chances for long range shooting at deer here in Wisconsin, usually 150 yards is the longest shot. I have been using the 100 grain Barnes X Bullet with 43 grains of Varget, but Barnes discontinued those bullets years ago. I have 20 rounds left, so I will have to work up a new load this year to make sure I am ready when I do finally run out of my old load. I've only recovered one bullet, which was under the hide on the rump after penetrating from the chest to that point through the length of the deer.

I guess it's not really a precision rifle, but I did do a pillar bedding job on it, make sure the barrel is free-floated, adjust the factory trigger to 3.5 pounds, and cut the stock to fit me adding a Pachmayr Sporting Clays recoil pad on it. That load I'm using will shoot .625 inch groups in my rifle all the time though.

I'm a 6.5mm fan(atic) who decided on that caliber while researching what cartridge to build my custom rifle project gun in for gunsmithing school. I started looking at .25 caliber, but the ballistics of the 6.5's and the range of bullet weights available was far superior. I ended up going with a 6.5 x 55 Ackley Improved Swedish Mauser. I had to use a '98 Mauser for the project gun to learn and perform the required modifications for a grade. I used a Shilen CM Match barrel in their 5 1/2 contour, which is pretty heavy to lug around the woods however.

[Dusty]

I used a Shilen CM Match barrel in their 5 1/2 contour, which is pretty heavy to lug around the woods however.

Good barrel. :lifter

[Rob_Frey]

Yes, it will shoot cloverleaf groups. I used Chrome-moly so I could blue it. I also used a Timney Deluxe trigger, a Tubb Titanium Speedlock firing pin, a Vais muzzle brake, Timney Buehler-style Low Safety, Lenard Brownell bolt handle and Fajen XX Claro Walnut stock with real ebony fore-end tip. I have Burris Signature 4 - 16x Scope on it too.

[Dusty]

Yes, it will shoot cloverleaf groups. I used Chrome-moly so I could blue it. I also used a Timney Deluxe trigger, a Tubb Titanium Speedlock firing pin, a Vais muzzle brake, Timney Buehler-style Low Safety, Lenard Brownell bolt handle and Fajen XX Claro Walnut stock with real ebony fore-end tip. I have Burris Signature 4 - 16x Scope on it too.

Is that Timney better than a Jewell on a 700 platform?

[Buffalobob]

Is that Timney better than a Jewell on a 700 platform?

A lot depends upon what you like. The first aftermarket trigger I got long ago was a Timmney and I have it adjusted to have a lot of slack because that is what I grew up with and I am comfortable shooting with a lot of slack. I have a Jewell and a "worked" Remington with no slack. When hunting in cold weather I sometimes have problems with cold fingers and light triggers. The Jewell is one of those that has a "scritch" to it and sometimes but not always, it hangs just a little before breaking. As far as I am concerned, I hunt with my triiggers set at 2# and I am fine with a worked Rem trigger. I am not paying to have an aftermarket trigger installed on my new rifle.

[koz]

Is that Timney better than a Jewell on a 700 platform?

Jewells have had more history of problems (if you're running the gun hard in the field) than Timneys. Jewell makes a great trigger, but it likes to be clean. The Timney / Shilen/ Remington can handle dirt & grime better. I'm running old Remington or Shilen triggers and have never had a problem.

[Dusty]

Jewells have had more history of problems (if you're running the gun hard in the field) than Timneys. Jewell makes a great trigger, but it likes to be clean. The Timney / Shilen/ Remington can handle dirt & grime better. I'm running old Remington or Shilen triggers and have never had a problem.

I'm putting together a .300 WinMag, but I haven't decided on the trigger or stock, yet. Prolly go with a Timney, though, just by reason of less reported problems.

[The Reaper]

I have no aftermarket triggers in my bolt guns.

A reworked Remington or Winchester set to 2# or so works fine for me.

I have shot sub-half MOA groups with both.

TR

[Dusty]

I have no aftermarket triggers in my bolt guns.

A reworked Remington or Winchester set to 2# or so works fine for me.

I have shot sub-half MOA groups with both.

TR

I wouldn't mind leaving the trigger alone if I can get it shaved right, but I really got used the break on the Richard Jewell on the .308. That thing always surprises me, as long as I pull it dead nuts.

[Peregrino]

I have four Winchesters with stock triggers, cleaned and tweaked. My one Remington has a Jewell. I'm just not that impressed with Remington's triggers.

[longrange1947]

I will now give my standard warning about tweaking Remy triggers...............

Be very damn careful, and make sure they are locked in once you are through.

More slam fires and fires by taking weapon off safe has occurred due to golden screwdriver action then anything Remy has caused.

Second warning, for a weapon going to the field take care in triggers with a break weight less than 2 lbs.

This completes this safety bulletin. :D

[Rob_Frey]

Is that Timney better than a Jewell on a 700 platform?

Maybe not "better", but more appropriate for the platform. I was in gunsmithing school from '94 - '96 and the Timney Featherweight (I mis-remembered the name "Deluxe" I think) was the best trigger choice available for the '98 Mauser at that time. I have my trigger set at 3 pounds on this one.

I just looked in my Brownells catalog, and see the trigger I have is called the "Featherweight" and the "Featherweight Deluxe" has a safety on the side. My trigger does not have a safety on it, I use the Mauser safety on the bolt shroud with a low profile lever.

I have put Timney triggers on Remington 700's when I could not get the factory trigger to come out the way I wanted them to. Sometimes the factory makes a bad one, and the best way to solve the problem is to replace it. I've seen the chrome plating on the engagement surface chipped off and then the pull feels gritty and it will not be possible to fix it.

The factory spring in the Rem. trigger cannot be adjusted below 2 lbs. and function reliably, longerange1947 's warning is correct. I always put epoxy over the adjustment screws afterwards to prevent them from moving and to keep customers from messing with them.

[craigepo]

More slam fires and fires by taking weapon off safe has occurred due to golden screwdriver action then anything Remy has caused.



I'll be damned. When I was 16 years old, I put a hole in the floorboard of my pickup with a 700 remington with a worked trigger. I never did figure out what caused that thing to go off. My Dad came running out of the house, asked me if I was alright, then called me a dumb S.O.B.(he was a pretty hard Korea infantry vet).

That was one of the old 700's, that had to be put on "fire" to raise the bolt. I wish I would have known this when he was alive.

[Buffalobob]

a 700 remington with a worked trigger.

I spent about four hours one day trying to adjust a Rem 700 trigger built in the early 1970's and could never get it below about 5# without slam firing. I finally gave up and took it to my gunsmith. He said the key is to have it totally degreased and to keep it that way.

[Dusty]

I spent about four hours one day trying to adjust a Rem 700 trigger built in the early 1970's and could never get it below about 5# without slam firing. I finally gave up and took it to my gunsmith. He said the key is to have it totally degreased and to keep it that way.

I believe I'll just stick with Jewell after listening to you guys.

[Rob_Frey]

...

That was one of the old 700's, that had to be put on "fire" to raise the bolt.

....

Remington had a recall for those guns and the warranty repair was to cut off the lever that locked the bolt in place and clean the trigger group.

[longrange1947]

I believe I'll just stick with Jewell after listening to you guys.

Good call in my humble opinion. :munchin :D

[Peregrino]

Or quit drinking the post-64 gun-writer "I hate what they did to my favorite rifle so I'm going to kill the brand forever" kool-aid and go with a Winchester 70 (or the FN re-incarnation). They don't need an aftermarket to get a decent field trigger.

[Ramirez]

I've seen Jewell fail w/ blown primers, and they hate being dirty. Long two day rifle match w/ texas red dirt CAN be hell on them. Some people on the other hand have never had an issue. I have a timney set at a crisp 1 1/4 lbs on my GAP. That's just the way I like it.

[Dusty]

Or quit drinking the post-64 gun-writer "I hate what they did to my favorite rifle so I'm going to kill the brand forever" kool-aid and go with a Winchester 70 (or the FN re-incarnation). They don't need an aftermarket to get a decent field trigger.

Winchester 70? Hathcock tried to use one of those in The Nam, and couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with it.

[MVP]

I for one like 700 triggers and prefer the old safety for my own guns. I normally keep a few of the new safeties around and gladly swap out old ones at no charge. Why you ask? Because I like the bolt being locked in the gun when the safety is engaged. Some of the board members here might remember there was a Ranger in Just Cause that lost his bolt during movement and ended up with a 14lb club he had to drag around. Just make sure the wepon is pointed in a safe direction when it is unloaded, same for loading.

MVP

[mark46th]

I have a Win Mod 70 in .270 Win. I bought it at Walmart for less than $300.00. It has a trigger that breaks clean and sharp at what I would estimate about 3 lbs, much lighter than my Rem 700 in .308...

[BryanK]

I finally had a chance to see what my rig can do this past weekend. I just got married the weekend before last (12MAY12), and as part of our honeymoon we visited my friend's range. Both her and I rung the 1,060 yd target (16"W X 20"H) more often than not. I hit it with the cold bore shot, but I guess I called the wind wrong or jerked a couple shots off target. My new bride I'm proud to say smacked it a lot more than she missed :D We were shooting Federal 175Gr gold medal match. I was more than happy with the 700P with no modifications :lifter

The picture is a little crappy because it was from an iphone, but our target was just off to the right of the gun by the far treeline (about 12:30)

[tunanut]

I took my new rig out to my range for some load development testing. It's a rem 700 with a 8.5 twist Bartlein chambered in 243AI Found that 43g of R 17 was pushing 105's 3150fps and shooting .3's @ 100 in the wind. Not as fast as I'd like, but it's hard to mess with that kind of accuracy. Those marks on that little steel are three rounds from 500yrds. I've got to thank Dave Tooley for putting together a sweet shooter for me.

[MVP]

Tunanut,

Do you stagger the targets ro the right to account for spin-drift?

M.

[tunanut]

It's kinda weird that there's a .2 mil right between the 105 Amax and Berger 105 Vld's loaded the exact same @ 100. Elevation is exactly the same. I have targets on the left and right side of the range, 10 steels between 100 and 500at varied elevations. It's a fun and challenging course of fire. Eggs @ 500 weed out the bullshiters. When I'm realed really dialed in I'll shoot skeet @ 850. If any of you want to stretch out your long rifles in central NC on a private range pm me. I shoot at least once a month outside of hunting season. I'm not smart enough to compensate for spin drift.

[BigJimCalhoun]

I just ordered received an adjustable cheek piece for my Rem 700. With my new scope I could not position the rifle beside by face while prone and look through the scope at the same time. This has caused a new flinching habit I hope the cheek piece will assist in solving.

[longrange1947]

I just ordered received an adjustable cheek piece for my Rem 700. With my new scope I could not position the rifle beside by face while prone and look through the scope at the same time. This has caused a new flinching habit I hope the cheek piece will assist in solving.

Try this. Stop placing your cheek on the stock. Instead, place the bottom of your jaw on the stock and then let your jaw bone slide down the side of the stock, but not the skin, as you place the full weight of your head on the stock. You will find that this gathers a bunch of skin up between you cheek bone and that hard stock. Your head will be higher and the impact on your cheek bone during recoil will become almost unnoticeable. While this may feel a little awkward at first, you will find it more comfortable and your head will rest much higher on your stock with the full weight of your head still on the stock.

Too many think that a cheek weld is to place your cheek bone on the stock, when it is to place your cheek area on the stock, more skin less bone. Remember to try and never place bone in direct contact with your weapon or on any hard surface. ;)

[BigJimCalhoun]

Thank you Long Range.

I have been practicing a little and it does take some getting used to, but I will make it a habit.

[Ramirez]

I've had a couple of rifles since I last posted, this is my new favorite. I bought it a few months ago, and even though it's a .308, I still have a blast with it. It shoots sub 1/2 MOA all day and the rifle seems to fit me very well. Although I start going transonic right at 1000 yards when I have a 0 DA, I can load them up a lil hotter and it won't really effect them. At least none that I've noticed. Most of my matches have shots under 800 yards anyway.

Details are below.

Pierce Action
Pierce 20moa Base
Timney 510
Brux 11 Twist, Sendero Contour, 20", 5/8x24" TPI
APA Little Bastard Brake
Manners MCS-T4 w/ Mini chassis.
Bushnell HDMR w/ G2
Badger Rings
Versa-pod w. Versapod Mount
Tab Sling

[badshot]

Too many think that a cheek weld is to place your cheek bone on the stock, when it is to place your cheek area on the stock, more skin less bone. Remember to try and never place bone in direct contact with your weapon or on any hard surface. ;)

Been shooting bolt action rifles so long had to consciously pick one up off hand to see were I place mine...it barely touches the stock, just an alignment guide to the sights or scope.

The former sounds painful...

[Ramirez]

Been shooting bolt action rifles so long had to consciously pick one up off hand to see were I place mine...it barely touches the stock, just an alignment guide to the sights or scope.

The former sounds painful...

Don't you want your head to rest on the rifle? I mean not putting pressure on it, but you don't want to be holding the weight of your head w/ your neck to get a good sight picture.

Maybe I'm not reading what you're saying correctly.



This is a picture of me w/ my head on the stock. If I'm straight back behind the rifle, I can close my eyes take a couple of breaths, open them and still see right though the scope.

[badshot]

but you don't want to be holding the weight of your head w/ your neck to get a good sight picture.

Yes, but I should point out that: 1) The stocks I'm using are cut down so my rifle fits like a glove for off hand or sitting 2) If I have to cock my head it doesn't fit right and will delay alignment for a fast shot. Meaning: I should raise the rifle and it'll be were it should be, no stretching or shifting my head. Can lean in, raise it, and will be aligned on the sights or scope. My cheek (between mouth and nose level) gently touches the stock. Doing this I can still hit a dime with 22-250 or 243 at 50yrds (or quarter at a 100) with 4x4 nikon standing, someday's just a dollar or a tea dish...grin

When checking a rifle I put it in a reinforced cut out cardboard box with towels and rags (high tech), and have to look through the sights or scope with my head cocked in a prone position. (and sometimes get a fat lip too). The reason is that it creates a somewhat consistent barrel vibration as if I were holding it. Kinda like sighting in your rifle w/bipod on sand then expecting the rounds to land in the same place when shooting on a concrete platform. You'd want to be shooting it on a sand platform, least that's my experience with bipod's. Sorry about the detour...

The last time I shot regularly prone was when completing the NRA sharpshooter test, at age 12, other than the above box checking/sighting in or a quick field check. If what you're doing works (ie. alignment) and is consistent, do what Long Range suggested as he has much more experience shooting prone and teaching others than I do.

Hope that clarifies it some.

[Ramirez]

Yes, but I should point out that: 1) The stocks I'm using are cut down so my rifle fits like a glove for off hand or sitting 2) If I have to cock my head it doesn't fit right and will delay alignment for a fast shot. Meaning: I should raise the rifle and it'll be were it should be, no stretching or shifting my head. Can lean in, raise it, and will be aligned on the sights or scope. My cheek (between mouth and nose level) gently touches the stock. Doing this I can still hit a dime with 22-250 or 243 at 50yrds (or quarter at a 100) with 4x4 nikon standing, someday's just a dollar or a tea dish...grin

When checking a rifle I put it in a reinforced cut out cardboard box with towels and rags (high tech), and have to look through the sights or scope with my head cocked in a prone position. (and sometimes get a fat lip too). The reason is that it creates a somewhat consistent barrel vibration as if I were holding it. Kinda like sighting in your rifle w/bipod on sand then expecting the rounds to land in the same place when shooting on a concrete platform. You'd want to be shooting it on a sand platform, least that's my experience with bipod's. Sorry about the detour...

The last time I shot regularly prone was when completing the NRA sharpshooter test, at age 12, other than the above box checking/sighting in or a quick field check. If what you're doing works (ie. alignment) and is consistent, do what Long Range suggested as he has much more experience shooting prone and teaching others than I do.

Hope that clarifies it some.

Awesome, I see what you're saying now. Thanks for taking the time to explain it to me.

[badshot]

Awesome, I see what you're saying now. Thanks for taking the time to explain it to me.

Great...Glad I could help

[frostfire]

I've had a couple of rifles since I last posted, this is my new favorite. I bought it a few months ago, and even though it's a .308, I still have a blast with it. It shoots sub 1/2 MOA all day and the rifle seems to fit me very well. Although I start going transonic right at 1000 yards when I have a 0 DA, I can load them up a lil hotter and it won't really effect them. At least none that I've noticed. Most of my matches have shots under 800 yards anyway.

Details are below.

Pierce Action
Pierce 20moa Base
Timney 510
Brux 11 Twist, Sendero Contour, 20", 5/8x24" TPI
APA Little Bastard Brake
Manners MCS-T4 w/ Mini chassis.
Bushnell HDMR w/ G2
Badger Rings
Versa-pod w. Versapod Mount
Tab Sling

nice stick!
How's the versa-pod running for you?

I thought of doing a review of mine, but I'm reluctant to put any negative point as the owner and the engineer were so nice as they gave me the plant tour. He even let me build my own bipod from literary nuts and bolts right there at the assembly line and charged me 0 $. I like the pan and tilt capability, and it's the fastest one to deploy compared to harris, atlas, brm, etc. Well, the truth is the knob broke just from my trying to tighen the mount to the spigot. Also, the triangle base formed has more acute angle than other model. Thus, it's more wobbly/probe to fall sideways.

Hope you have better experience with yours

[longrange1947]

One thing about precision shooting, there are NO absolute rights, only absolute wrongs. As an example, jerking the trigger is an absolute wrong. However, always adjust your shooting to your body, do not try to adjust your body to your shooting. If you adjust your shooting you will shoot naturally and comfortably and with great consistency. If you adjust your body, it will tire and your shooting will got to hell.

When I make suggestions, it is just that, suggestions. If it works for you great, if not keep looking. You WILL find that technique that will work for you and your shooting will be natural and not contrived by using techniques that do not fit your body.

As an example, I place full head pressure on my stock when shooting all positions, standing off hand to prone. I know others that do not use full but only some, and then there are those that barely touch the stock. If it works do it. If it does not find what does. ;)

[frostfire]

master Rick, between your:
NO absolute rights, only absolute wrongs.
and master Gene Econ's "train the eyes to see, and the finger to move," you two should collaborate and write the next Zen and the Art of ..... series :D Even if the book is only one page, and one paragraph long, it'd be worth it. Throw master Todd H to the mix and the reader is set!

Let's see, Zen and the Art of Lead Slinging? Zen and the Art of Reaching Out and Touching Someone?

Hope all is well! As I came across more current 37 instructors, you sure left quite a lasting impression:D

[Ramirez]

nice stick!
How's the versa-pod running for you?

I thought of doing a review of mine, but I'm reluctant to put any negative point as the owner and the engineer were so nice as they gave me the plant tour. He even let me build my own bipod from literary nuts and bolts right there at the assembly line and charged me 0 $. I like the pan and tilt capability, and it's the fastest one to deploy compared to harris, atlas, brm, etc. Well, the truth is the knob broke just from my trying to tighen the mount to the spigot. Also, the triangle base formed has more acute angle than other model. Thus, it's more wobbly/probe to fall sideways.

Hope you have better experience with yours

I liked it, It was really low, but that's just how this one came. I bought it w/ the stock. I've seen harris break as well, not big deal.

I sold that rifle to fund a .260 I had to get back into the 6.5/.264 calibers!

SAC built
SAC Alpha 11
26 inch Bartlein barrel .260
Manners T5A w/ APA bottom metal and badger EFR

1000 yards 7.9 mils w/ 140g Berger Hybrids:lifter

[tunanut]

Oh, that's real nice. What twist did you go with?

[Ramirez]

Oh, that's real nice. What twist did you go with?

1:8

That's my buddies surefire on it, I just bought an AAC Cyclone this week. So give me 6-8 months :)

It's been a laser. I took it out to 1100 yards with ease, and yesterday I was trying some different loads out to 300 and 400 yards. The 10 shot group is 8 shots w/ rem brass at 43.6g of H4350 and 2 shots of Nosler brass w/ 43.0 grains. When I was finished I put 3 VLD hunting though the same holes! I'm glad I can switch between the VLDs and the Hybrids w/o an impact shift.

[badshot]

1:8

That's my buddies surefire on it, I just bought an AAC Cyclone this week. So give me 6-8 months :)

It's been a laser. I took it out to 1100 yards with ease, and yesterday I was trying some different loads out to 300 and 400 yards. The 10 shot group is 8 shots w/ rem brass at 43.6g of H4350 and 2 shots of Nosler brass w/ 43.0 grains. When I was finished I put 3 VLD hunting though the same holes! I'm glad I can switch between the VLDs and the Hybrids w/o an impact shift.

Nice rig and grouping...love the 6.5. Don't have much experience with Berger bullets but most everyone seems to agree they are the finest for reaching out with groups that 'make the hole bigger'.

Always puts a grin on my face...

[frostfire]

It’s been years and now prs has proliferated like ipsc/action pistol/3gun

I get the itch again. Since I’ve (regretfully) rid of my precision instruments I get to start from nill - at least equipment and not skill wise.

By now 6.5 Is tried and true with 6 CM n 6 prc sprouting. So 6.5 is my starting point.

Anyone knows where to get Tiikka t3x on MDT acc?

I don’t think I could replicate the great deal I got getting tikka straight from berettausa director so I’m now looking at Bergara BMP, Bergara premier lrp n savage elite precision. Those prob offer best mil discount.
My primary concern is report of poor qc on these ie unreliable chambering w the elite and poor mount w Bergara.
Accuracy is wash on all this at around 0.5 MOA ( amazing how w the technology and some competition now one can achieve that w factory ammo n production rifle)

Anyone play w these recently?
I don’t mind if the action is not as buttery smooth as tikka n it’s not 60 degrees bolt throw but reliability w speed racking n solid scope mount are non negotiable.

FWIW, custom and mpr production are over my budget. Want to use the extra for bipod, level, glass, n Hornady 140 eld

[frostfire]

It’s been years and now prs has proliferated like ipsc/action pistol/3gun

I get the itch again. Since I’ve (regretfully) rid of my precision instruments I get to start from nill - at least equipment and not skill wise.

By now 6.5 Is tried and true with 6 CM n 6 prc sprouting. So 6.5 is my starting point.

Anyone knows where to get Tiikka t3x on MDT acc?

I don’t think I could replicate the great deal I got getting tikka straight from berettausa director so I’m now looking at Bergara BMP, Bergara premier lrp n savage elite precision. Those prob offer best mil discount.
My primary concern is report of poor qc on these ie unreliable chambering w the elite and poor mount w Bergara.
Accuracy is wash on all this at around 0.5 MOA ( amazing how w the technology and some competition now one can achieve that w factory ammo n production rifle)

Anyone play w these recently?
I don’t mind if the action is not as buttery smooth as tikka n it’s not 60 degrees bolt throw but reliability w speed racking n solid scope mount are non negotiable.

FWIW, custom and mpr production are over my budget. Want to use the extra for bipod, level, glass, n Hornady 140 eld

I must be slow. All my online suppliers are sold out. Actually lol 😝 when I saw every single one without fail no longer has 7.62, 9, 5.56, 6.5 etc
I imagine it’s the same with reloading supplies
No point getting the tools without the sustainment. I’m going to stock on lawyers cards and whistles :boohoo
The words of QP’s whom I sold my stash to are haunting me now.