View Full Version : Carolina Beach restaurant says "no" to screaming children
I'm curious how others see this. Personally, I find screaming children annoying; however, I'm interested in what others think about this. Should more restaurants do this? Or should they not?
LINK (http://www.wect.com/Global/story.asp?S=13107715)
Excerpt: CAROLINA BEACH, NC (WECT) - A restaurant in Carolina Beach is stirring up controversy over a couple of signs reading, "Screaming children will not be tolerated."
Personaly I agree that the restaurant has every right to to do it. I have two preschoolers and sometimes i dont want to hear them screaming either. We have even been know to ask for our plates to be boxed so that we could leave the other customers to dine without having to hear our kids.
To those without children: somedays they are angles and act perfectly in public, somedays they are little terrors that are truly uncontrolable.
Buffalobob
09-09-2010, 07:50
said Ashley Heflin, who is a mom of two. "You can't help it if your kids scream."
Parents like this should be sterilized or perhaps just euthanized on the spot so those genes are not allowed to propagate. They are also the ones that let their dogs run loose in the neighborhood to poop in other peoples yard.
I would note that there is a difference between a baby and a kid. I have lot of tolerance for a baby who may be teething or have some other discomfort that is not easily dealt with as long as the parents are at least trying to soothe the baby.
Responsible parents will either not place their children in social situations they may not be ready for or correct/remove them if they prove incapable of acceptable behavior.
Goes with the territory.
And so it goes...
Richard :munchin
PedOncoDoc
09-09-2010, 08:03
Personaly I agree that the restaurant has every right to to do it. We have even been know to ask for our plates to be boxed so that we could leave the other customers to dine without having to hear our kids.
As have we - as parents, we have assumed the responsibility for dealing with screaming children which includes not making others have to deal with our children when they misbehave IMNSHO.
Parents like this should be sterilized or perhaps just euthanized on the spot so those genes are not allowed to propagate. They are also the ones that let their dogs run loose in the neighborhood to poop in other peoples yard.
A strong statement. I'd be less worried about their dogs pooping in my yard than I would be fearful that they are not teaching their children restraint and that there are consequences to all actions. A person who does not learn these things has a better chance of becoming a menace to society than those whose parents consistently held them accountable.
Dozer523
09-09-2010, 08:10
Parents like this should be sterilized or perhaps just euthanized on the spot so those genes are not allowed to propagate. Just guessing here, Bob, but . . . you didn't check "Yes, but done with a light hand".:D
The ones that bother me are the parents who don't quiet their children in church. There IS a quiet room with piped in sound and a picture window and it's got toys. And no, I don't think a toddler talking through mass, especially the sermon, or driving his her toy car over the pew (or my shoulders) is a child's way of worship.
During those times I wish the baptismal font was deeper.
.......The ones that bother me are the parents who don't quiet their children in church. There IS a quiet room with piped in sound and a picture window and it's got toys. .........
In addition to the infant room with an attendant we have Children's Church. During the service there is the Children's portion where they all come up front and the preacher gives them a lesson that is tied to the sermon.
After that they go to a classroom where they continue the lesson with crafts and things while we get the sermon. It is aimed to the 3ish to 8ish and seems to work well.
But with three kids of my own and one grand baby I can tolerate babies as long as someone is working on them - but Brats? Give the family the strong boot out the door.
I hate screamers,, to include little kids.
Problem is, in some instances the parents can't prevent the problem.
Case in point: My daughter flew down this Spring with the 2YO E. When she met us at the luggage claims, she and E were both in tears.
E had screamed all the way down. S was not only mad & embarrassed, but completely at a loss as to a solution.
E was diagnosed with a hearing problem and had tubes installed in both ears. The procedure was successful and happened about a month before they came down,, with the Doctor's consent.
Evidently the planes pressure system was not working well and the child was in pain. S thought she had preempted the problem with a children's benadryl an hour prior to take off,, didn't help.
Fortunately, the trip home E was back to smiling & giggling as is her passion..
As far as in restaurants and other public areas.. The parents lack of supervision and failure to maintain some level of control is responsible for 90% on the "problem" child's behavior.
Even if the child has a very valid medical problem, forcing the general populous to endure the problem is not acceptable.
:mad::mad::mad:
SO,, YES,, kick'm out....
1stindoor
09-09-2010, 09:27
One of my former team sergeants said, right after the birth of my son, "remember, your kid ain't as cute and precocious as YOU think he is."
He was a great team sergeant, taught me as much about life in general as he did about life in SF.
longrange1947
09-09-2010, 09:43
It is a parents responsibility to keep children under control. Resturants and planes are apples and oranges. Planes cause alot of problems for young children and they will let you know if they are hurting. Resturants have an outside that planes do n ot have. Take them out htere and handle it.
That said, the resturant is respecting the rights of all the other patrons. Too often it becomes "MY" right at the expense of all others. As someone said "your right ends at the tip of my nose" or in this case, at the end of my hearing range. Same goes with loud obnoxious music.
Hate to say "In my day", BUUUTTTTT, when I was a kid, I acted up I got straightened up. That needs to happen more frequently. I have sit and watched parents ignore a screaming kid while they continued doing what ever they were doing. Take the youngen outside, find out what is wrong and if it is a tantrum, handle it outside, not in my space.
My lousy 2 cnets on this one. :munchin :D
PS, yes I chose the first one. :p
1stindoor
09-09-2010, 10:03
Resturants have an outside that planes do not have. ....PS, yes I chose the first one. :p
Where have I been jumping?
longrange1947
09-09-2010, 10:06
Where have I been jumping?
OK, OK, show me the "outside" you can take a kid until they settle down. :p
Jumping inside would just not make sense........
The Reaper
09-09-2010, 10:12
I saw the mother on the news.
Just about what you would expect to bring this issue up. Looked like she might be fishing for an ADA lawsuit by claiming her child was autistic, and ignoring that IIRC, businesses in this country have the right to refuse service to anyone they choose. Appeared to be a Northern Privileged Liberal.
When my kids were young, and acted up in a restaurant, my wife or I took them outside and walked or played till the meal was up.
I have had a number of otherwise good meals ruined by other people's kids, and expected them to quiet their own as I would have. Just mutual respect and courtesy. Frequently, I have been disappointed. Some people feel that their personal comfort and enjoyment come before everyone else's.
IMHO, the restaurant owner is well with her rights to make this policy, and those who are offended by it should go elsewhere, making everyone happier.
My jeweler has a sign in his establishment stating, "Unsupervised children will be sold into slavery." We never tried him on it.
TR
1stindoor
09-09-2010, 10:26
My jeweler has a sign in his establishment stating, "Unsupervised children will be sold into slavery." We never tried him on it.
TR
I saw a sign in an old "country store" near asheville that said, "Unsupervised children will be given a cup of coffee and a new puppy."
ReefBlue
09-09-2010, 14:15
One of my former team sergeants said, right after the birth of my son, "remember, your kid ain't as cute and precocious as YOU think he is."
My mom was a realist. She said to me a couple years ago--when you were born, you were the most important thing that ever happened to me . . . and to no one else.
I just wish more parents would realize that.
Parents like this should be sterilized or perhaps just euthanized on the spot so those genes are not allowed to propagate. They are also the ones that let their dogs run loose in the neighborhood to poop in other peoples yard.
I would note that there is a difference between a baby and a kid. I have lot of tolerance for a baby who may be teething or have some other discomfort that is not easily dealt with as long as the parents are at least trying to soothe the baby.
I stopped reading after this post by Bob!
Sir, IMHO, SPOT on!
From someone who has worked front-of-house for 15 years, (and is now learning the back-of-house,) it is a distraction for other diners, and can ruin any dining experience. Peroid!
Take your child OUTside of the eating space that others are paying their own hard-earned money, to eat in. This benefits you, your fellow diners, and the staff, which have to cater, cook for, and wait on other diners...which are counting on the gratuity from OTHER tables, to make their money for the night.
JMHO,:munchin
Holly
Responsible parents will either not place their children in social situations they may not be ready for or correct/remove them if they prove incapable of acceptable behavior.
Very true, key word being responsible...
My dad taught us well and said he was always proud of the fact we didn't "act up" in public. Like my aunt's kids. :eek:
I have 7 nieces and nephews and I can't stand them when they're screaming, let alone a stranger's kids.
I have 7 nieces and nephews and I can't stand them when they're screaming, let alone a stranger's kids.
I have 6, and oh geeze, cannot imagine how my brothers' transport them on airplanes...let alone restaurants.:munchin Wow!:confused:
Holly
Dragbag036
09-09-2010, 17:02
I saw a sign in an old "country store" near asheville that said, "Unsupervised children will be given a cup of coffee and a new puppy."
I saw the same sign just the other day at the National Harbor "Unattended children will be given a shot of espresso and a puppy". The frau and I laughed our asses off. We have 2 boys, and as my mother would do, we gave them the death stare :eek:
Is it just me or has anyone else noticed an increase in the number of parents taking young kids to restaurants, to movie theaters, and having them out and about at all hours than in decades past?
Is it just me or has anyone else noticed an increase in the number of parents taking young kids to restaurants, to movie theaters, and having them out and about at all hours than in decades past?
Don't know which is worse - kids crying in R rated movies or everyone else texting during the movie - little screen light comes on - fingers working - goes off - another one comes on - just like little fireflys all over the seating area.
ZonieDiver
09-09-2010, 19:07
Is it just me or has anyone else noticed an increase in the number of parents taking young kids to restaurants, to movie theaters, and having them out and about at all hours than in decades past?
I have. This grumpy old man doesn't go out as much as I used to because of it, too! Beer is cheaper at my house (or much cheaper at someone else's house!)
ReefBlue
09-09-2010, 19:08
Is it just me or has anyone else noticed an increase in the number of parents taking young kids to restaurants, to movie theaters, and having them out and about at all hours than in decades past?
Comes down to a simple reason, I think:
They want the kids but are unwilling to make the sacrifice of isolation.
My mother would never take me to a restaurant or anywhere else that was dominated by adults.
Additionally, she would do archaic things such as cook at home. :confused: :eek: So why go out to eat in the first place.
When we would go visit relatives in Western PA, we'd have to take Greyhound. She would always get tickets for the overnight bus so I would sleep for as much as possible.
I think they're just so used to tuning their kid(s) out that they figure everyone else does, too.
I got fully on-board with the 'you will behave in public' program quickly.
My weekly Sunday trips to Catholic Mass were "opportunities to excel" for me as a child. My folks made sure that we sat in the front row. I was convinced that the Monsignor who was the head of our Parish would stop Mass and come down wade into the crowd and beat my young little a** if I deserved it. HOWEVER, my Dad made that unnessary. He was definately a little quicker on the trigger than any priest could ever be. It only happened once (well, maybe a few times... because I'm hard-headed) but getting hauled out of church, out the side door and either outside or down to the basement for a little "attitude adjustment" session really put a exclamation point on things for me, that's for sure. What a great lesson. Thanks, Dad.
Dozer523
09-09-2010, 21:43
I got fully on-board with the 'you will behave in public' program quickly.
My weekly Sunday trips to Catholic Mass were "opportunities to excel" for me as a child. My folks made sure that we sat in the front row. I was convinced that the Monsignor who was the head of our Parish would stop Mass and come down wade into the crowd and beat my young little a** if I deserved it. My Dad told me if I was bad they would ring the bells and I'd get a spanking when I got home. 'splains a few things . . . I am shocked. I mean it's crazy -- somebody lets Dozer into church???It's insane .
Yes smartie panties. As long as I keep my finger out of the holy water.:D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ax71wAnkBkY&feature=related
@ 2:16
I'm not an authority on kids or parenting, but lately it seems I have noticed more folks bringing a baby into a bar or late night restaurant with a live band. I don't recall seeing this that often before.
I'm not an authority on kids or parenting, but lately it seems I have noticed more folks bringing a baby into a bar or late night restaurant with a live band. I don't recall seeing this that often before.
Today's parents have a problem I and my parents didn't have..
Baby Sitters that charge 15 USD an hour with 10 Hr minimum. It outrageous what they get. I swear they have a union..
I also do not condone kids in bars..
BUT,, I, like a lot of the older gen, was taken to many places.. No matter what the local, if I didn't behave to the standard,, I got my butt warmed..
I guess one could rationalize somewhat. The fact that SOME bars have a family style. Some don't.
When I was a kid, ALL bars had one goal,, to drink & get drunk. It wasn't until I started drinking in the 60t's that the notion of "getting lucky" was added.
Todays trendy culinary bistros do make available alcoholic libations, while facilitating social intercourse and platonic relationships between consenting individuals. Taking the kids will limit one and enhance the other :eek:
One reason I stay home....
.......Baby Sitters that charge 15 USD an hour with 10 Hr minimum. It outrageous what they get. I swear they have a union..........
Family, friends and sleepovers are the cure for that issue.
Want a special night with the little lady sometime? May cost you a house full of kids this Friday night. Hot dogs, chips and Kool-aid are cheaper than a babysitter.
Got a parachute to string up in a tree? Don't care if you burn a spot in your grass with a camp fire? You'll be the hit of all your kid's friends.
Babysitters will get what the market will allow. Short notice or special nights will carry a premium.
Spoken as one who had two babysitters in the family and one just breaking into the job field.
For people away in the Military away from the usual family support close friends can fill in.
AngelsSix
09-12-2010, 16:59
Responsible parents will either not place their children in social situations they may not be ready for or correct/remove them if they prove incapable of acceptable behavior.
Goes with the territory.
And so it goes...
Richard :munchin
Enough said!:lifter
mojaveman
10-02-2010, 00:42
It can be annoying listening to children scream and cry but I won't say that I let it really bother me. Everybody here was a crying screaming kid at one time. ;)
The Reaper
10-02-2010, 08:02
It can be annoying listening to children scream and cry but I won't say that I let it really bother me. Everybody here was a crying screaming kid at one time. ;)
True, but not in a restaurant, at least in my case.
If my brother or I started, we got warned, then we went outside.
TR
drymartini66
10-02-2010, 11:30
It seems to me that alot of parents today are for some reason afraid to dicipline or "mind" their children in public. Screaming children at a restaurant is the tip of the iceburg. I've seen kids climbing on tables that people eat on in restaurants and parents laugh. Of course there's the outright defiance. I've seen small kids hitting, kicking and even swearing at their parents in public. The interaction I see with said parents is more of friend instead of needed diciplinarian. In a nutshell, I see alot of weak parents out there today. Correct me if I'm wrong.:munchin
This is why I keep thumb screws in my purse...:p.
Green Light
10-04-2010, 18:50
I've had three kids. They don't bother people in restaurants, they say "excuse me" if they bump into someone, and look you in the face when they shake hands. IOW, we taught them manners and that they weren't the centers of the universe.
Firm instruction, quick correction, and genuine affection works wonders. They also knew that Daddy had one of the biggest belts in the world. (Used about as often as a Titan Missile Silo) :cool:
Just about any child can have a bad day. Just about any child can be taught to be good. Not every parent cares enough to teach them. If my wife and I hadn't done it, they'd be just like the rest of the little brats running around. Just my humble opinion.
Responsible parents will either not place their children in social situations they may not be ready for or correct/remove them if they prove incapable of acceptable behavior.
Goes with the territory.
I think this is the key point... Parenting is the key. Knowing what is right and what is wrong. Today we just take the easy way out of everything that most of us took or lived with growning up or raising our own kids.
Personally, I find screaming children annoying; however, I'm in the set that as a parent you need to take your kid to the restroom and put them in there place.
I think today the whole don't spank your kid(s) has gone to far. I remember my Wife being in the Commissary and getting on our kids for picking everything off tose lower (Kid Level). She pulled one off and spanked her and got onto my Son. A Women walking by gave here a look. She just looked back at her and Said " What you need some too". I think we as a Nation want the best of both worlds. These great kids but no one can do anything to their kids.
Look I know some people go over broad on disipline. But I think some younger parents now a days have been programed not to do a think due to schools, TV and for some their Parents.
Maybe just telling the Parents, hello can you control your Kid(s). Can you take them to the bathroom please.
But once again we as a Nation don't get into other people dealings.
So the easy way, get the F&*K off of this place because of your kids. Yes Parents will get the message from getting kicked out of enough places and yes once they can't go back to that restaurant they both Just Love due to their Kids Yelling and Crying. Once the kids are 7 or 10 then they will get back in. Hopefully by then kids will know better, because their parents you what to do because of getting kicked out of a place(s).
Jumping down now.
Reading some of these posts, there seems to be a disconnect between the story and everyone's opinion. The child is autistic. I don't know how many of you are really familiar with that condition. It is not something that can be "disciplined" away. I agree that an otherwise normal child who is misbehaving should be disciplined in this situation. An autistic child is different. They, nor their parents, cannot necessarily control their reactions to certain situations. And Buffalo Bob, it is not something a parent may know will be passed genetically.
My son has asperger's syndrome, which is a mild form of autism. It is my firm belief that it was caused by mercury used as a preservative in his MMR shots when he was little. Along with that comes OCD, which includes behavioral idiosyncrasies. There is nothing you can do about it. No amount of discipline, threats or cajoling will stop it.
Autism spectrum rates are skyrocketing ( http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/autism/index.html ) . Do you want to just lock these children away? Do their parents not deserve to have a night out occassionally? Do the children not have the right to enjoy a modicum of happiness and exposure to the outside world? People like the operator of this restaurant are quick to judge at times. The thing is, it was just a simple cafe', it wasn't some joint that charged $100.00 for a glass of wine and required a black tie.
Reading some of these posts, there seems to be a disconnect between the story and everyone's opinion. The child is autistic. I don't know how many of you are really familiar with that condition. It is not something that can be "disciplined" away...........
Just because a person's child is autistic does not mean they get a pass when in a public place.
If a child throws wild fits and causes disruptions is no excuse for the parents to look at other people trying to eat and say "Shut up and eat, my kid is autistic."
How do you weight "rights"? Does the one family with the autistic kid causing a scene in the place have more "rights" than 20 other tables trying to enjoy a night out.
Maybe the parents should do a better job picking the setting and controlling interactions. If the child reacts then he/she should be removed by one of the parents until under control - or get to-go boxes.
I would assume parents of autistic children know how they act.
Just because a person's child is autistic does not mean they get a pass when in a public place.
If a child throws wild fits and causes disruptions is no excuse for the parents to look at other people trying to eat and say "Shut up and eat, my kid is autistic."
How do you weight "rights"? Does the one family with the autistic kid causing a scene in the place have more "rights" than 20 other tables trying to enjoy a night out.
Maybe the parents should do a better job picking the setting and controlling interactions. If the child reacts then he/she should be removed by one of the parents until under control - or get to-go boxes.
I would assume parents of autistic children know how they act.
How many times have you gone to a restaurant and adults are talking loudly, laughing loudly, talking on their cell phones as if they were alone, etc. ? Other than a black tie type restaurant, which ones do you frequent where the general din already there is any more disruptive than a child, autistic or not, would be? Seldom have I seen anyone get up and leave, or make some grumbling comment because of it. My personal experience leads me to believe that crying children, obnoxious adults and "normal" kids running up and down the aisles are part and parcel with going out. Maybe I just go to the low rent restaurants, I don't know. To me, the smell of cigarette smoke while I am trying to eat is much more annoying. I have left a restaurant because of that.
As far as an autistic child being in a public place, I would think that an adult should be able to observe the child for a few seconds and conclude what the problem was, and make a little concession for that. Compassion versus condemnation.
The Reaper
10-05-2010, 10:55
Well, brother, we are all entitled to our own opinions.
I am sorry that your child has these challenges. I will probably step on some toes for saying this, but my comments and questions are from the heart, so here goes.
OTOH, your rights end where mine begin. Just like smokers who spoil meals or events for others, misbehaving children have the same effect. Both can be remedied by going outside. Assuming that other people do not mind is a large leap.
I did not get loud and misbehave in restaurants when I was a child. If we started to, we got warned, and then hauled outside before we could disrupt other diners.
My children did not get loud and misbehave in restaurants when they were children. If they started to, they got warned, and then hauled outside before they could disrupt other diners.
True, other people, to include adults, act thoughtlessly in public places all of the time. That doesn't make it right. If you were sitting at a table next to me shouting the F word every sentence, or throwing food, or acting like an asshole, I would first ask you politely to stop it.
I see a huge increase in the number of autistic and ADHD diagnoses being handed out today. There are a couple of possibilities, one that there are more kids with the challenges, or physicians are just throwing the diagnoses at any child with behavioral issues. Not saying you do not have a genuine health issue. I do see a lot of kids misbehaving in public who, in my own personal opinion, appear to have never been taught self-restraint or disciplined. People compliment my wife and I on how well-behaved our kids are, and bemoan their own kids conduct, while ignoring the kids' bad behavior at the same time, not taking any corrective action. I have to shake my head.
I have no education on autism or ADHD, but it occurs to me that if you can teach a rat that action A has consequence B, then you should be able to make that connection with a human child. You act up, you are going to be removed from the situation. Honestly, and I mean no disrespect, if they do not learn to control themselves as children, when will they? As teens? Young adults? Never? Will they have this issue, or the crutch that comes along with it forever?
On the consumer side, all other things being equal, unless I had children with behavioral disorders, I would probably be more likely to patronize a restaurant that banned screaming kids, and less likely to give my business to one that tolerated it. I prefer to eat my meals in relative peace, enjoying my food without disturbing others, and do not think that requiring other diners to do the same is unreasonable. FWIW, I do agree that the expectations at Chucky Cheese should be different from Ruth's Chris, but a child out of control should be taken out of either.
TR
bandycpa
10-05-2010, 10:59
The eldest Bandy Boy (who is 10 now) is high-functioning autistic. We received our diagnosis just a little over a year ago. Before we got our diagnosis, we would often try to "script" what he said and how he acted by *telling* him what to do. What we found was that he had an issue with processing speech, and that visual instruction was what he responded to best.
So, I actually showed him video of people ordering in a restaurant...with emphasis on speaking clearly, making eye contact with the waiter, and so forth. He has responded to this much better than when "Dear Ol' Dad" would just say "speak up son!". It has made a world of difference. In fact, the help staff comment on how polite both of my boys are (that's Dad getting to crow a little bit :D). We were very fortunate to find something that worked for him like this, as we had tried for years to figure it out for ourselves. One little change can sometimes mean a world of difference.
One thing the pediatric neurologist told us when he gave us the diagnosis was that, if it wasn't going to be a major inconvenience to everybody else, it was okay to let the world revolve around the boy sometimes. We do that on occasion, but most of the time we expect him (and his 7 year-old brother too) to "act like gentlemen" in a public place. So far, they have both lived up to our expectations.
Bandy
Well said, Bandy. Our youngest son has autism. We learned early on that he learned best through imitation and being exposed to as many situations as possible. We also were extremely sensitive of the rights of others around us. On occasion, hubby and I have eaten in “shifts” in order to keep him quiet and occupied, but we have never stopped letting him try new experiences.
He is currently a high school senior, volunteers at the local hospital, eats politely in suit and tie at Ruth Chris, and will graduate with a regular education diploma in June. I attribute his success to our persistence and support, but also to the kindness and support of others as they see what we try to do. Seems to me to the bottom line is keep the communication lines open and treat others as you would be treated. :)
Sacamuelas
10-05-2010, 12:16
It's nice to see that this thread has maintained an even keel.
Glad to see members respect other differing opinions while strongly arguing their own side with courtesy and empathy.
I fall somewhere between the middle of the extremes. I try to FULLY appreciate the issues a small percentage of children present. I acknowledge that parents of these children need to expose the kids to outside environments. When performed as Bandy described, it would be evident to me as a patron that the parents were dealing with a special circumstance, and I would resist the urge to get frustrated and angry. However, on the other coin, there are PLENTY of parents that get a Dx of autism and then completely use that crutch to ignore their responsibility as a parent to prevent unnecessary disturbances. Ignoring an autistic child in an uncommon environment prevents the benefit that these type parents claim to use as the reason for exposure. We have ALL seen those cases.
I imagine from the emotional and honest replies in this thread that our members that are actually facing these challenges fall into the catagory Bandy has described. For those of you who are ACTIVELY participating in parenting your child ( even if the child is over 18), I applaud your efforts and will quietly eat my meal and silently admire your work. My empathy for your situation will overcome my anger/frustration/stress/distractions. :(
For those of you who have a crappy kid.... whose child gets Dx'd with ADHD or autism because you are a crappy parent or have crappy teachers who are to busy texting/talking/drinking to give your child a proper example and guidance.... who use the excuse of a half assed Dx of ADHD or autism by a school nurse or counselor to justify your crappy parenting skills leading to a major disturbance around you... Get the HELL out of the restaurant. :D
BTW- I take my children to the restroom and administer discipline ( boy or girl) when in public. That is only if the pinch/squeeze/skull claw/or death look don't work first. :)
My son is going to be 16 in December. Like Bandy's child, we were fortunate that he is very "high functioning." He does not present a discipline problem but he does have his quirks. He hates crowds, they make him nervous and agitated, causing him to "flap" his hands. He eats faster than any basic recruit you have ever seen. He does not understand correct responses in some social situations. When he gets an idea in his head, there is no dislodging it, period. If he learns how to do something, that is the way it has to be done, don't try teaching him an alternative method. He loves to go to the range and shoot. He loves to ride the harley with me. He loves reading, cooking, science, etc.
We have home schooled him since the 6th grade. He did very well in grade school, especially reading. I simply did not want him going to the middle school he would have had to attend. On his last CAT test, he scored above grade level in everything but math. He can do most math in his head without thinking about it; he has trouble comprehending word problems though. Even then, he scored at grade level there.
Autism spectrum covers a wide range of disorders, with each disorder displaying a wide range of symptoms. It has taken my wife and I a very long time to learn what we can effect and what we can't. We learn something new every day. As a police officer, I attended Crisis Intervention Team training and learned even more there. I have had to deal with all manner of behaviors associated with autism spectrum while working the street. At one time, my opinion was the same as most of you. Over time, I have drastically changed that opinion due to the exposure I have had. I have learned how to identify a child who may suffer from a disorder, even if the parents don't know what the problem is. Many of them don't, they simply think their child is misbehaving when that may not be true.
Not all parents are equipped to handle a child with one of these disorders, especially if they are severely autistic. It takes a heavy physical and emotional toll. What do you tell a 15 year old when he asks when is he going to be able to go to driver's ed and you know that will never happen because he is unable to think three dimensionally? In the meantime, he sees his 16 year old cousin driving all of the time.
None of this is an attempt at garnering pity. It is an attempt to maybe get some people to evaluate a situation before they make a judgement that may be flawed. Before you blame a parent or a child for what you think is misbehavior, try to identify what the problem really is. If you still feel the same, do you really want that child sequestered physically? He or she already is mentally. Especially the higher functioning ones. They know they are different. They just don't know why.
PedOncoDoc
10-05-2010, 16:32
It's nice to see that this thread has maintained an even keel.
Glad to see members respect other differing opinions while strongly arguing their own side with courtesy and empathy.
I fall somewhere between the middle of the extremes. I try to FULLY appreciate the issues a small percentage of children present. I acknowledge that parents of these children need to expose the kids to outside environments. When performed as Bandy described, it would be evident to me as a patron that the parents were dealing with a special circumstance, and I would resist the urge to get frustrated and angry. However, on the other coin, there are PLENTY of parents that get a Dx of autism and then completely use that crutch to ignore their responsibility as a parent to prevent unnecessary disturbances. Ignoring an autistic child in an uncommon environment prevents the benefit that these type parents claim to use as the reason for exposure. We have ALL seen those cases.
I imagine from the emotional and honest replies in this thread that our members that are actually facing these challenges fall into the catagory Bandy has described. For those of you who are ACTIVELY participating in parenting your child ( even if the child is over 18), I applaud your efforts and will quietly eat my meal and silently admire your work. My empathy for your situation will overcome my anger/frustration/stress/distractions. :(
For those of you who have a crappy kid.... whose child gets Dx'd with ADHD or autism because you are a crappy parent or have crappy teachers who are to busy texting/talking/drinking to give your child a proper example and guidance.... who use the excuse of a half assed Dx of ADHD or autism by a school nurse or counselor to justify your crappy parenting skills leading to a major disturbance around you... Get the HELL out of the restaurant. :D
BTW- I take my children to the restroom and administer discipline ( boy or girl) when in public. That is only if the pinch/squeeze/skull claw/or death look don't work first. :)
Well put. We all have our biases and opinions about autism spectrum disorders, ADHD and the alarming increase of said diagnoses in recent years.
I feel there is a lot of over-diagnosis of Autism and ADHD in children and the criteria for giving children these diagnoses are becoming looser and grayer with each passing year it seems. As said by others above, I feel that in many instances a lot of the problem behaviors leading to a diagnosis could have been easily avoided/corrected by consistent, firm -- yet loving -- parenting. You have to ask yourself if you love your child enough to be hard on them?
My children misbehave plenty - I honestly feel that smoetimes they are checking to see if MRFL and I will follow through on our promises of discipline. We have taken our children to the restroom and out to the car (at times, at their request). We debrief on why corrective action was taken, let them decide when they are ready to re-integrate with the social setting, and will pull them out again if needed; some times that means cancelling the remainder of the trip out.
Kids are kids - they will act as such. It is our duty to mold them into strong, responsible men and women. Every waking moment is an opportunity to teach them - for better or worse, and they are ALWAYS paying attention (especially when we least want them to).
....None of this is an attempt at garnering pity. It is an attempt to maybe get some people to evaluate a situation before they make a judgement that may be flawed. ......
The judgement may be flawed but that does not change the cause or the result.
I arrange to have a nice date with the wife at a cozy out of the way place because it's our anniversary. Right before the food arrives the kid at the next table starts screaming and continues to scream as we start to eat.
Once again, who has more "rights"? The kid or all the other people trying to eat? What would be the "right" thing to do? Part of the price I'm paying goes for the atmosphere. The atmosphere should not include screaming kids.
And adults as loud as kids? Surely you jest. I've been in Buffalo Wild Wings at BB Time with all kinds of loud adults and when a toddler in the family section cuts loose a shreek it cuts through everything. Everybody stops talking, gives the "What the Hell was that" look and then goes back to making their adult noises.
While food places around Fayetteville can afford the Odd POed customer or three, plenty of hungry GIs to fill the tables, still they can be shut down by word of mouth getting around that they are not a good place to go. It does not take much bleeding to impact the bottom line in food service.
And all of the above was said as a new Grandfather who takes the 2 month old out to eat with us.
And while we're on the subject - how about movies? Yes, the texting lights coming on and off can be distracting and people coming and going can block your view for a second or two - but a screaming kid? That's it.
Again, Pete, you seem to be lumping all "screaming kids" together. There is a difference between a brat and an autistic child. One deserves discipline, the other, understanding.
As far as movies go, I refuse to spend $30.00 for a matinee (counting drinks and snacks), when I can wait 6 weeks, spend $1.00 at the Redbox, go home, kick back, watch the movie, and eat and drink all I want.
The Reaper
10-05-2010, 17:57
Again, Pete, you seem to be lumping all "screaming kids" together. There is a difference between a brat and an autistic child. One deserves discipline, the other, understanding.
With all due respect, the result of either, if allowed to continue is the same to the diner.
And it is nearly impossible to tell what the cause might be.
Are you saying that if a full-on tantrum were going on, with screaming and yelling, that you would not take your child out of the restaurant?
Agree with you on the movies, BTW.
TR
I think Bandycpa used a good term when he said “let the world revolve around my kid”. MOST parents of kids with autism are acutely aware when their child is causing a disturbance. Believe me; it is a traumatic experience for the parents as well as the child. We are well aware that we must teach our child to “get in step with the rest of the world”. It is the process that is under discussion. We try as best to do it without offending others.
The hard thing is that children with autism usually “look” like every other kid. They don’t come with a wheelchair or brace. They get judged based on “looking normal”. Typically, it is their unusual behaviors that cause an issue. Imagine how scary it would be to have your son or daughter stopped by a police officer because they are behaving oddly. When he tries to interview them, they are unable to verbalize. They may flap/squeeze/wring their hands. They look like they are on drugs. The more intense the questioning, the more upset they become without knowing how to respond. Every time my son leaves the house, this is my nightmare. Fortunately, we live in a suburban area and most of the public safety officers know about “special” kids. Driving? My son knows he is different; that doesn’t make it hurt any less.
I must live in a fairly reasonable area because almost as often as I have been at dinner where there is an out-of-control child I have seen a traumatized parent trying to regain control. I’m sure there are many lazy POS out there who milk a disability label, even when not appropriate. This is even more outrageous to those of us with truly disabled children than it is to someone whose sensibilities are offended. A true disturbance is not a learning experience for anyone. Other diners deserve their peace and quiet.
However…
As a society we must decide if we will support the process of assimilating those with disabilities into the “regular” world. (I know the children who have grown up with my son don’t get offended by him. Acceptance is learned early on.) The resulting good is that we strengthen our diversity of skills and talents, not to mention our humanity. Many people with disabilities have amazing talents and abilities; they may just come with a handful of “behaviors”. Think Einstein, Steven Hawking, etc. What a shame it would have been if they had been dismissed because something about them offended people.
Just MHO, your mileage may vary. I will labor on regardless. :D
If an autistic child is agitated to such a level that he is disrupting a restaurant, then he is outside of his comfort zone and needs to be removed for his own peace if no one else's.
How does a child learn the rules and norms of society if they are not in "society"?
Patents are the coaches and the monitors of threasholds and if a child is "endlessly screaming", then the parents make the informed decision and leave. They leave because it is the right thing to do, not because the 'have to'.
Just me....
Surgicalcric
10-06-2010, 06:21
...if a child is "endlessly screaming", then the parents make the informed decision and leave. They leave because it is the right thing to do, not because the 'have to'.
Just me....
Thats assuming the parents know what the right thing is to do, and are willing to do it.
And it is nearly impossible to tell what the cause might be.
Are you saying that if a full-on tantrum were going on, with screaming and yelling, that you would not take your child out of the restaurant?
TR
No, I am not saying that. This has kind of strayed from the original intent of the thread; being should the Carolina Beach eatery have done what they did. Most parents of autistic children are acutely aware of their child's behaviors. When the child gets a little too agitated, they will remove the child from the situation. It is not only annoying to people around them, who probably don't know what is going on, but it is extremely embarrasing for the parents.
What I took issue with was the appearance that everyone wanted to treat autistic children the same as some brat who was throwing a tantrum. The two situations should be viewed completely differently.
Imagine how scary it would be to have your son or daughter stopped by a police officer because they are behaving oddly. When he tries to interview them, they are unable to verbalize. They may flap/squeeze/wring their hands. They look like they are on drugs. The more intense the questioning, the more upset they become without knowing how to respond. Every time my son leaves the house, this is my nightmare. Fortunately, we live in a suburban area and most of the public safety officers know about “special” kids.
In North Carolina at least, we have CIT (Crisis Intervention Teams). These are officers on each patrol team who have been trained to recognize and deal with mentally challenged citizens. Before CIT, many officers simply resorted to involuntary committments or arrests when faced with difficult situations like this. Now, a CIT officer has many more options and much better training. Anyone who has dealt with an autistic child or adult for a longer period of time knows the small behaviors that generally characterize the disorders.
My heart goes out to every parent who has to deal with this issue. My fiance's child suffers from Asperger's Syndrome - he's a wonderful boy, perfectly happy, but unable to verbalize within the accepted range for his age group.
As he gets older, I imagine I'll start having those same fears.
Back on subject, I agree with the Carolina Beach restaurant's decision. While they may need to be considerate of children with disabilities, we can assume that those cases are in the minority - luckily, for everyone involved. And when they come up, let's hope the waiter/manager has the sense to be discreet, as do the parents.
There's no reason I wouldn't take my autistic child outside and help him calm down, the same as I would do for a more "normal" child. Helping him to understand acceptable behavior is a part of the integration process.
Cynic, best of luck to you and yours. I hope you never have to face the nightmares you described. :(
Cynic, best of luck to you and yours. I hope you never have to face the nightmares you described. :(
TY for your kind words. I've learned to sublimate the nightmares and focus on the fact that our son is the nicest "odd" guy you'd ever want to meet. :D
Cagekicker
10-06-2010, 10:50
It is definantly a parent's responsibility to make sure the kids behave reasonably in a social setting, especially in a restaurant where other people have paid money to enjoy their meal.
Interesting thread...fascinating aspects to what seemed to be a simple problem.
Notice the survey results.
Should restaurants maintain a policy against screaming children?
The majority - 50.54% - say yes, absolutely. The overwhelming majority, at 88%, support some policy. In contrast, almost all restaurants (seemingly) do nothing and have no policy. I strongly suspect that we would see similar numbers with regard to adult (mis)behavior with cell phones.
That's the odd thing. It would seem that some number of restaurants would have (and would enforce) a policy that required some standards. Of course, there would also be those with a more relaxed policy to accommodate those with that preference.
This seems like a niche, a real business opportunity. I wonder why so few restaurants perceive it?
FWIW, there's at least one deli here in San Antonio that enforces a no-cellphones policy. I suspect there may be others.
But you're quite right, this really is a niche market. Small delis and cafes trying to obtain an 'old world' feel might really benefit from well-posted signs advertising peace and quiet.