Burning Korans - and more......... [Archive]

T-Rock

09-07-2010, 07:13

I’m not for the burning of any books but the double standard is hideous considering the US Government authorized the burning of Bibles which is rather Nazi-esque IMO.

Policies of appeasement are part of the problem that help the ideology of the enemy advance as evidenced by Obama‘s Cairo speech. Nevertheless, I agree with what Robert Spencer pointed out, in which “the churches plan to burn the Qur’an on 9/11 is stupid and the antidote to free speech is not censorship or book-burning, but more speech. Open discussion. Give-and-take. And the truth will out. There is no justification for burning books.”

However, if that Church follows through with their plans, rather than burning the whole Qur’an, why not print off and bundle all the verses which call for violence towards the Kafiroon and burn these as an outcry that such violent teachings have no room in the 21st century?

Would Patton have issued this sort of statement during WWII if someone were exercising their free speech by burning Mein Kampf ?

Thought this was interesting:
That Spinning Sound You Hear Is General Patton

This just makes my hair hurt. Since when does a general of the US military, in the field, express concern about protests against the ENEMY that are being conducted at home?

I don't care whether Terry Jones' "burn a Koran Day" idea is a "good" one or not. He and his church are not committing censorship or preventing anyone from obtaining their very own copy of the Krayon. Assuming they bought those Korans and didn't cat-burgle a mosque, this protest of theirs falls under acts of free speech, period. (It doesn't get anywhere near "yelling fire in a crowded theater" because there is no rational reason for anyone to react to it by rioting and killing.)

This is so infuriating that if I weren't going to be in NYC at the GZ protest -- NOT holding a sign for some reason -- I'd be down there in Florida holding Terry Jones' coat for him.

If some moron decided to stage a "Burn Atlas Shrugged Day" I'd say meh, the more fool he, and ignore him. The fact that Muslims are hysterical immature savages with no concept of individual rights is no concern of General Petraeus. His job is to KILL THE TALIBAN BASTARDS, not to worry about whether their feelings are hurt.

And while we're at it, General, would you like us to destroy all remaining prints of those old Donald Duck anti-Nazi WWII cartoons? I suppose it might have been feared that such "offensive" expressions would "endanger" General Patton's Third Army. Care to guess what General Patton would have had to say about that?

Source: http://ibloga.blogspot.com/2010/09/that-spinning-sound-you-hear-is-general.html

Richard

09-07-2010, 07:20

Bunch of dumba$$e$.

Richard's $.02 :munchin

Paslode

09-07-2010, 08:01

Can't we all just get along.....it will never happen.

Pete

09-07-2010, 08:26

Bunch of dumba$$e$.

Richard's $.02 :munchin

Who?

The church? The Muslims? Or both?

T-Rock

09-07-2010, 08:36

I personally think it totally insane for a Muslim to feel compelled to riot and kill over the burning of a book, it’s not rational…it’s not like they’re burning Muslims at the stake.

Something is horribly wrong if General Petraeus has to be concerned about the effects of a preacher in Florida… :(

:munchin

Paslode

09-07-2010, 09:44

Richard

09-07-2010, 09:58

A few of Mr Clemens' thoughts on such matters.

We despise all reverences and all the objects of reverence which are outside the pale of our own list of sacred things. And yet, with strange inconsistency, we are shocked when other people despise and defile the things which are holy to us.

- Following the Equator

In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination, from authorities who have not themselves examined the questions at issue but have taken them at second-hand from other non-examiners, whose opinions about them were not worth a brass farthing.

- Autobiography of Mark Twain

If Christ were here there is one thing he would not be--a Christian.

- Mark Twain's Notebook

What has become of the Golden Rule? It exists, it continues to sparkle, and is well taken care of. It is Exhibit A in the Church's assets, and we pull it out every Sunday and give it an airing...It is strictly religious furniture, like an acolyte, or a contribution-plate, or any of those things. It is never intruded into business; and {religious} persecution is not a religious passion, it is a business passion.

- "Concerning the Jews"

And so it goes...

Richard :munchin

T-Rock

09-07-2010, 09:58

They take their religion and God very seriously.

IMO, the same outrage shown for burning the Qur’an would be more productive if that same outrage was directed towards the condemnation of those who carry out the penalty of RIDDA...

That would win my heart and mind :D

nmap

09-07-2010, 11:53

Hmm. I wonder if one could get the same effect by downloading a PDF of the koran and deleting it. I guess not... :D

The Reaper

09-07-2010, 13:05

Richard

09-07-2010, 13:36

Or are some animals really more equal than others?

I think Mark Twain's position was that such hypocrisy amongst religions goes both ways.

Richard

ZonieDiver

09-07-2010, 14:02

Hmm. I wonder if one could get the same effect by downloading a PDF of the koran and deleting it. I guess not... :D

This made me smile! Thanks!

GratefulCitizen

09-07-2010, 14:30

If Christ were here there is one thing he would not be--a Christian.

- Mark Twain's Notebook

He'd probably still be an orthodox Jewish Rabbi. ;)

Penn

09-07-2010, 15:21

TR is asking the right question: why the exception, when we willingly accept the destruction of emblems near and dear. In fact, this BB was in general agreement with protecting the 1st amendment right with regard to burning the Flag, how is it not acceptable to burn the Quran?
imho, its the relationship of church sponsored activity, it is disconcerting and uncomfortable, morphing the argument from the non secular to the secular, and in doing so redirects the confrontation removing it from the realm of inalienable civil rights.

Pete

09-07-2010, 15:26

The White House speaks out on the subject - and you guessed it.....

Some Animals are more equal than others.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_WHITE_HOUSE_QURAN_BURNING?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2010-09-07-15-46-17

"........At the White House, spokesman Robert Gibbs echoed concerns raised by Gen. David Petraeus, the U.S. commander in Afghanistan, about the plans. Petraeus said earlier that images of the event would be used by extremists "to inflame public opinion and incite violence."........."

So a bunch of Muslims protesting whatever in Mich. or NY shouting death to "Juice" (remember that one folks?) is cool because they're hip. But let a Christian plan to burn a Koran and..........

T-Rock

09-07-2010, 15:40

Pete

09-07-2010, 15:53

Free Exercise of Religion? No, Thanks.

http://www.slate.com/id/2266154/

An interesting Read. Please read slowly - and all the way to the end.

Don't jump the gun and post in haste.

"..A recent blizzard of liberal columns has framed the debate over American Islam as if it were no more than the most recent stage in the glorious history of our religious tolerance. This phrasing of the question has the (presumably intentional) effect of marginalizing doubts and of lumping any doubters with the anti-Catholic Know-Nothings, the anti-Semites, and other bigots and shellbacks. So I pause to take part in a thought experiment, and to ask myself: Am I in favor of the untrammeled "free exercise of religion"?............."

greenberetTFS

09-07-2010, 16:09

This made me smile! Thanks!

Your right Zonie that was kinda funny in a way!.............;)

Big Teddy :munchin

wet dog

09-07-2010, 16:23

nmap

09-07-2010, 16:23

Don't jump the gun and post in haste.

Interesting and thought provoking. I cannot help wondering if civilization can perform these worthwhile duties while itself in a state of flux - and when there is a clash between different notions of civilization.

wet dog

09-07-2010, 16:28

Interesting and thought provoking. I cannot help wondering if civilization can perform these worthwhile duties while itself in a state of flux - and when there is a clash between different notions of civilization.

There has always been clashes between different notions of civilization, no reason to think it's going to change anytime soon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CHSVC2nAl8

Richard

09-07-2010, 16:36

"WWJD?" :confused:

greenberetTFS

09-07-2010, 16:42

wet dog

09-07-2010, 17:09

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fuzLTrwVbc&feature=related

I kinda stumbled on this....... :eek: But after thinking about it,I thought to my self have any of you ever heard a muslim refer to themselves as muslim-american?........ :confused: I haven't!.......:(

Big Teddy :munchin

Big Teddy, you and I are tracking brother...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZBTyTWOZCM&feature=related

Nightflyer

09-07-2010, 17:12

Warrior Mentors-
How come we never heard of any muslim americans speak out or protest against anything anti american? :confused:

Gypsy

09-07-2010, 17:12

Where's the outrage over the burning of the Flag, the Christian bible, the "art" called Piss Jesus etc etc etc?

Oh...wait...nevermind. :rolleyes:

Buffalobob

09-07-2010, 17:24

"The taming and domestication of religion is one of the unceasing chores of civilization. Those who pretend that we can skip this stage in the present case are deluding themselves and asking for trouble not just in the future but in the immediate present".

As I said on the Hawkings thread about God and creation-- Still plenty of potbangers around. The religion of "Hate" is one of the more common forms of potbanging. The constitution guarantees us many rights; unfortunately, nothing guarantees the uses of intelligence in the exercise of those rights. We tolerate flag burning as a form of freedom of speech and we tolerate some guy having the right to own a gun and shooting his wife and children with a gun in the name of liberty and personal freedom. Tolerating it does not make it right.

And finally, I doubt that God is going to look very kindly on the the potbanging hatemongerer when he arrives at the pearly gates. But that's just my opinion of God and maybe other people's God has a different view of the world.

Sigaba

09-07-2010, 17:32

There are plenty of other ways for Americans to degrade and to humiliate themselves than by burning texts / documents / symbols that other law abiding Americans find sacred.*

My $0.02.

_________________________________________
* If you ever want to see exercises in self-humiliation, hang around a parking facility in an affluent area of town. Folks driving snazzy foreign imports will do and say just about anything to avoid paying what they owe.

Paslode

09-07-2010, 17:37

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fuzLTrwVbc&feature=related

I kinda stumbled on this....... :eek: But after thinking about it,I thought to my self have any of you ever heard a muslim refer to themselves as muslim-american?........ :confused: I haven't!.......:(

Big Teddy :munchin

In my limited interaction with Muslims I have never heard a one say the word American in describing themselves....though they have all mentioned Muslim Americans.

My bias 2 cents.

Sigaba

09-07-2010, 17:53

In my limited interaction with Muslims I have never heard a one say the word American in describing themselves....though they have all mentioned Muslim Americans.What does it say of our own confidence in our identities that we need others to define themselves as we would like rather than how they see fit?

lksteve

09-07-2010, 17:56

[ But after thinking about it,I thought to my self have any of you ever heard a muslim refer to themselves as muslim-american?........I have never referred to myself as a Presbyterian-American, either...from time to time, I do refer to myself as a Confederate-American, but that's only to piss certain folks off...

nmap

09-07-2010, 18:12

What does it say of our own confidence in our identities that we need others to define themselves as we would like rather than how they see fit?

I think that people tend to seek identification of whether an individual is "one of us" or "not one of us". Thus, it is not a matter of our confidence in our identities, but rather an instance of determining something about others.

nmap

09-07-2010, 18:20

OK, so burning the koran is frowned upon. To make up for this, perhaps I can offer a new translation - this one into that important dialect known as "Jive". The translation was prepared using this LINK (http://userweb.cs.utexas.edu/users/jbc/home/chef.html)

Surely there can be no objection to translation. :D

In de Name uh Allah, de Merciful, de Most Merciful
[1.1] In de Name uh Allah, de Merciful, de Most Merciful
[1.2] Praise be t'Allah, Lo'd uh de Wo'lds,
[1.3] de Merciful, de Most Merciful,
[1.4] Owna' of de Day uh Recompense. What it is, Mama!
[1.5] You's (alone) we wo'ship; and You's (alone) we rely fo' help.
[1.6] Guide us t'de Straight Pad,
[1.7] de Pad uh dose downon whom You's gots' favo'ed, not dose downon whom be de anger, no' de astray. Slap mah fro! (Amen please answer)

2 De Cow -Al Baqarah In de Name uh Allah, de Merciful, de Most Merciful
[2.1] AlifLaamMeem. 'S coo', bro.
[2.2] Dat be de (Holy) Book, where dere be no doubt. It be a guiboogy fo' de cautious (of evil and Hell).

Sigaba

09-07-2010, 18:21

I think that people tend to seek identification of whether an individual is "one of us" or "not one of us". Thus, it is not a matter of our confidence in our identities, but rather an instance of determining something about others.What is the "something" that we're trying to determine, why is that information relevant, and is having some sort of predetermined 'check list' or 'litmus test' the best way to gather information and to make an informed determination?

T-Rock

09-07-2010, 18:28

"WWJD?"

…And you will be hated by all men, because of me…

Therefore,

…"…he who has a money bag, let him take it , and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one….”

Walk softly and carry a big stick :D

nmap

09-07-2010, 18:36

What is the "something" that we're trying to determine, why is that information relevant, and is having some sort of predetermined 'check list' or 'litmus test' the best way to gather information and to make an informed determination?

Whether they are a potential threat, or a potential ally - or simply irrelevant.

Is it the best way? Given the constraints of limited time, along with limited and ambiguous information, perhaps. Yes, it's sloppy and error-prone. Yes, it is flawed. And yet, perhaps, it is the best way we have easily at hand.

Notice your comment about people in post #30:

If you ever want to see exercises in self-humiliation, hang around a parking facility in an affluent area of town. Folks driving snazzy foreign imports will do and say just about anything to avoid paying what they owe.

In essence, this identifies people that meet certain parameters as potential threats to revenue. Let me clear - this is not a criticism! We all do it. And - it works.

Sometimes. ;)

Sigaba

09-07-2010, 19:02

Notice your comment about people in post #30:

If you ever want to see exercises in self-humiliation, hang around a parking facility in an affluent area of town. Folks driving snazzy foreign imports will do and say just about anything to avoid paying what they owe.

In essence, this identifies people that meet certain parameters as potential threats to revenue. Let me clear - this is not a criticism! We all do it. And - it works.

Sometimes. ;)I think you misread my comment due to my trading glibness for clarity.

The behaviors of these motorists--including presenting damaged tickets, offering irrelevant documentation, telling tall tales that don't add up, and bullying behavior ("You picked the wrong person to mess with! Let me speak to your boss!":rolleyes:)--define them as a threat to the revenue stream and the ability to keep a straight face, not some predetermined rubric that parking operators apply. (We reserve the rubric for cashiers....)
Whether they are a potential threat, or a potential ally - or simply irrelevant.Does viewing one's fellow citizens through these categories encourage civility or does the practice broadcast the presence of a chip on one's shoulder?

My own personal experiences suggest the latter. YMMV.

Paslode

09-07-2010, 19:12

What does it say of our own confidence in our identities that we need others to define themselves as we would like rather than how they see fit?

Just seems to me there are people that wish to be segregated by race, religion or both. There are people of every color and religion (some more than others) that wish the rest of us were on another portion of the planet so that they could with their own kind under their own rules.

In the case of Muslims that happen to live in America, some of them believe Sharia trumps US Law which is a problem. So in the long term as their numbers grow are we going to accommodate them with a separate court system like in the UK? And thus their own America.

And then the Whites, Blacks, Hispanics and Chinese might want their own America as well....sounds like the Balkins.

So IMO the hyphenated American creates division, which isn't a good thing for the country as a whole.

nmap

09-07-2010, 19:14

I think you misread my comment due to my trading glibness for clarity.

The behaviors of these motorists--including presenting damaged tickets, offering irrelevant documentation, telling tall tales that don't add up, and bullying behavior ("You picked the wrong person to mess with! Let me speak to your boss!":rolleyes:)--define them as a threat to the revenue stream and the ability to keep a straight face, not some predetermined rubric that parking operators apply. (We reserve the rubric for cashiers....)

No, not a rubric - nothing that formal. Rather, we have some group, however defined - in this case, drivers of expensive foreign cars. Some members of that noticeable group behave in a generally similar way - and enough of them act in that fashion that a connection is made.

So, first there is a pattern of behavior that seems to apply to a group. Then there is a connection, albeit an imperfect connection. Finally, someone asks a person if they are a member of the group and makes conclusions as a result. Notice this is all based on observed behavior.

Does viewing one's fellow citizens through these categories encourage civility or does the practice broadcast the presence of a chip on one's shoulder?

My own personal experiences suggest the latter. YMMV.

It seems our experiences differ. I certainly wouldn't want to treat a potential ally badly. And if I perceive a threat, I'll proceed with caution - perhaps with an excess of formality and with words carefully chosen.

akv

09-07-2010, 19:20

What does Christianity gain here? The reaction of Gen. Petraeus makes sense, if we are fighting an insurgency in Afghanistan, are we helping our troops in those villages by burning Korans and bashing Islam in an Islamic region? This isn't a 3rd Generation war like WW2. The enemy isn't stupid they will milk this for all its worth. Why wouldn't a tribal elder's first question be, " You Americans say you are here to save us from insurgents, yet we are told this is just another Crusade, is it true your people say all Muslims are evil and burn our Korans in America? Our troops have a tough enough job as it is. IMHO this is both legal and myopic.

charlietwo

09-07-2010, 19:43

T-Rock

09-07-2010, 20:03

:munchin

I oppose the Qur'an-burning. I don't like the burning of books. I'd rather that the contents of the Qur'an, and the ways that jihadists use those contents to justify violence, be known. However, these people are free to do what they want to do. Petraeus would do better to tell the Afghans that in America we have freedom of speech and expression, and that we put up with speech and expression that we dislike without trying to kill the speaker. He would do better to tell them that their likely murderous rage over this event is an outrageous overreaction, and that any bloodshed over this would be a heinous crime, far dwarfing any crime they think the people in Florida are committing.

The idea that in wartime one should be careful not to do anything that the enemy is likely to respond to with irrational and even murderous anger may seem tactically wise at first glance, but ultimately it is a recipe for surrender. One is already accepting the enemy's worldview and perspective, and working to accommodate it, instead of working on various fronts, not just the military one, to show why it is wrong and should be opposed.

Source: http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/09/eisenhower-der-fuhrers-face-song-could-endanger-troops----no-wait.html

wet dog

09-07-2010, 20:08

Marginally off the direction this thread has traveled, but still on topic...

My initial thought when I heard Gen. Petreus condemning this action was "Why is it dangerous for our troops?" The answer of which points obviously to the biggest reason for our current conflicts which seems unavoidable --- Islam

Anyone care to add to this?

The church behind this has posted several reasons for the burning of books,...

http://www.doveworld.org/blog/ten-reasons-to-burn-a-koran

and if that wasn't enough, they post 5 more reasons.

http://www.doveworld.org/blog/5-more-reasons-to-burn-the-koran

Richard

09-07-2010, 20:09

Bunch of jacka$$e$ acting and sounding like...well...a bunch of jacka$$e$.

Gawd must be so proud of his work. :rolleyes:

Richard :munchin

charlietwo

09-07-2010, 20:14

The church behind this has posted several reasons for the burning of books,...

http://www.doveworld.org/blog/ten-reasons-to-burn-a-koran

and if that wasn't enough, they post 5 more reasons.

http://www.doveworld.org/blog/5-more-reasons-to-burn-the-koran

Most of those reasons were the only silver lining I could find to this. *shrugs* Lets see where this one rolls....:munchin

wet dog

09-07-2010, 20:19

Most of those reasons were the only silver lining I could find to this. *shrugs* Lets see where this one rolls....:munchin

I've already sent a letter to the church, explaining to a lesser degree the 7 stages of resistance warfare. I'm assuming it will fall on deaf ears, but a wise man once said, "do good unto others, clothe the naked,...feed my people". Burning a book does none of these things, it is only counter productive.

If "dialogue is what they want", we can do that.

I think taking shots over the bow should be our next move, but I was never in the Navy, not sure what that really means.

WD

Pete

09-07-2010, 20:53

.......... Why wouldn't a tribal elder's first question be, " You Americans say you are here to save us from insurgents, yet we are told this is just another Crusade, is it true your people say all Muslims are evil and burn our Korans in America?............

It's almost funny in a way. The village elder would think nothing at all about asking the question and then burning a church with the priest and bibles in it down to the ground.

Utah Bob

09-07-2010, 21:08

Morons.

ZonieDiver

09-07-2010, 21:14

This church is only a couple rungs lower on the "Ladder of Religious Ass-Hattery" than the group that "protests" soldiers' funerals. Just a couple...but it isn't a long ladder.

PRB

09-07-2010, 23:37

Hmm. I wonder if one could get the same effect by downloading a PDF of the koran and deleting it. I guess not... :D

LMAO

akv

09-08-2010, 01:22

It's almost funny in a way. The village elder would think nothing at all about asking the question and then burning a church with the priest and bibles in it down to the ground.

Definitely possible, If as CSM Hall described, the Afghan people have been in a constant state of war for 30 years, the only ones left are cold survivors.

tonyz

09-08-2010, 06:52

Burning Korans - and more...

This pastor's proposed actions are troubling on many levels.

I am a simple man. I believe in the existence of both good and evil...and evil comes in many forms. I am not convinced that this pastor is evil but I am convinced that his proposed actions are not good.

If I might analogize, the burning of a Koran (as protected free speech) with the proposed construction of the NYC Mosque near Ground Zero - there may be the legal right to do this (build the Mosque or burn the Koran)...but that doesn't make it the right thing to do.

While our system of law (a system for social control) is a process by which a government produces rules and regulations that are enforceable by sanctions and penalties...law is NOT the exclusive method of social control...custom, morality, societal norms, family beliefs, and yes, religion...exert some measure of control on a civilized society.

I do hope that the efforts by those on this board (and countless others) convince this misguided pastor that his burning of a Koran produces nothing positive for society - nothing.

Just my $ .02 - YMMV.

Richard

09-08-2010, 07:05

Seems to me as if some things seldom, if ever, change - preaching and not practicing what one preaches is one of those things.

And so it goes...

Richard's $.02 :munchin

tonyz

09-08-2010, 07:38

Seems to me as if some things seldom, if ever, change - preaching and not practicing what one preaches is one of those things.

Spot on.

And, common sense is not so common.

Pete

09-08-2010, 07:50

Seems to me as if some things seldom, if ever, change - preaching and not practicing what one preaches is one of those things.

And so it goes...

Richard's $.02 :munchin

So what about Islam?

Why do you give Islam a pass on everything and slam Christians for the slightest offense against Islam?

The problem with Islam is it does practice what it preaches.

There is no room in Islam for any other religion.

T-Rock

09-08-2010, 08:08

I take comfort in knowing that if the Qur’an bonfire is canceled this coming Saturday, all American Soldiers and Civilians will be safe…

:munchin

Every accommodation non-Muslims make for Muslims moves our culture, our beliefs, and our legal systems one step closer to Sharia law. The concession itself is the establishment of Sharia law.

Source: http://www.citizenwarrior.com/2010/07/concessions-to-islam-are-sharia.html

Richard

09-08-2010, 08:16

So what about Islam?

FWIW - my comment was made in reference to all religious beliefs.

Richard :munchin

T-Rock

09-08-2010, 09:16

Although I don’t agree with the burning of books, it seems minuscule to me compared to the burning of humans during the application of Sharia by al-Shabaab al-Mujahideen
(Not Safe For Kids):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpMaLvygF7k

ETA

"The Prophet gave orders concerning Kinanah to Zubayr, saying, ‘Torture him until you root out and extract what he has. So Zubayr kindled a fire on Kinanah's chest, twirling it with his firestick until Kinanah was near death. Then the Messenger gave him to Maslamah, who beheaded him." (Tabari VIII:122/Ishaq:515)

Ali burnt some people alive (former muslims)., Prophet had said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' (Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 260)

Allah's Apostle sent us in a mission and said, "If you find so-and-so and so-and-so, burn both of them with fire" ( Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 259)

http://justsickshit.com/al-qaeda-video/terrorists-execute-3-men-by-burning.wmv

SF-TX

09-08-2010, 10:38

Definitely not watching that.

It might open your eyes to the depravity inspired by Islam.

But religious hatred cannot be fought with religious hatred. Hate breeds hate, anger breeds anger and it never never stops. MOO

Leftist claptrap. I subscribe to the view held by Father Zakarias Botros; "As I love Muslims, I hate Islam." (http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20823&highlight=zakarias+botros)

SF-TX

09-08-2010, 10:44

Perhaps our "contingency operations" against "man-made disasters" are not directed at the core of the problem.

"It is the duty of Muslims to react," said Mohammad Mukhtar, a cleric and candidate for the Afghan parliament in the Sept. 18 election. "When their holy book Quran gets burned in public, then there is nothing left. If this happens, I think the first and most important reaction will be that wherever Americans are seen, they will be killed. No matter where they will be in the world they will be killed."

Fla. minister: Sept. 11 Quran burn still planned
By MITCH STACY Associated Press Writer © 2010 The Associated Press
Sept. 8, 2010, 10:58AM

GAINESVILLE, Fla. — The leader of a small Florida church that espouses anti-Islam philosophy said Wednesday he was determined to go through with his plan to burn copies of the Quran on Sept. 11, despite pressure from the White House, religious leaders and others to call it off.

"We are still determined to do it, yes," the Rev. Terry Jones told the CBS Early Show.

Jones said he has received more than 100 death threats and has started wearing a .40-caliber pistol strapped to his hip since announcing his plan to burn the book Muslims consider the word of God and insist be treated with the utmost respect. The 58-year-old minister proclaimed in July that he would stage "International Burn-a-Quran Day."

Supporters have been mailing copies of the holy text to his Gainesville church of about 50 followers to be incinerated in a bonfire Saturday to mark the ninth anniversary of the 9/11 attacks.

Gen. David Petraeus, the top U.S. and NATO commander in Kabul, took the rare step of a military leader taking a position on a domestic matter when he warned in an e-mail to The Associated Press that "images of the burning of a Quran would undoubtedly be used by extremists in Afghanistan — and around the world — to inflame public opinion and incite violence."

Petraeus spoke Wednesday with Afghan President Karzai about the matter, according to a military spokesman Col. Erik Gunhus. "They both agreed that burning of a Quran would undermine our effort in Afghanistan, jeopardize the safety of coalition troopers and civilians," Gunhus said, and would "create problems for our Afghan partners ... as it likely would be Afghan police and soldiers who would have to deal with any large demonstrations."

Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton said that the pastor's plans were outrageous and urged Jones to cancel the event.

"It is regrettable that a pastor in Gainesville, Florida, with a church of no more than 50 people can make this outrageous and distrustful, disgraceful plan and get the world's attention, but that's the world we live in right now," Clinton said in remarks to the Council on Foreign Relations. "It is unfortunate, it is not who we are," she said.

Jones has refused to cancel the protest at his Dove World Outreach Center but said he was still praying about it.

"How much do we back down? How many times do we back down?" Jones told the AP. "Instead of us backing down, maybe it's time to stand up. Maybe it's time to send a message to radical Islam that we will not tolerate their behavior."

Jones gained some local notoriety last year when he posted signs in front of his church declaring "Islam is of the Devil." But his Quran-burning idea attracted wider attention. It drew rebukes from Muslim nations and at home as an emotional debate was taking shape over the proposed Islamic center near the ground zero site of the 2001 terrorist attacks in New York.

His actions likely would be protected by the First Amendment's right to free speech. The U.S. Supreme Court has made clear that speech deemed offensive to many people, even the majority of people, cannot be suppressed by the government unless it is clearly directed to intimidate someone or amounts to an incitement to violence, legal experts said.

The Vatican denounced the planned Quran burning as "outrageous and grave."

U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder during a meeting Tuesday with religious leaders to discuss recent attacks on Muslims and mosques around the U.S. called the planned burning idiotic and dangerous, according to a Justice Department official. The official requested anonymity because the meeting was private.

David Axelrod, senior adviser to President Barack Obama told CNN Wednesday morning: "The reverend may have the right to do what he's doing but it's not right. It's not consistent with our values ... I hope that his conscience and his good sense will take hold."

Staffan de Mistura, head of the United Nations Mission in Afghanistan, expressed concern and outrage "in the strongest possible terms," and added, "If such an abhorrent act were to be implemented, it would only contribute to fueling the arguments of those who are indeed against peace and reconciliation in Afghanistan."

Local religious leaders in this progressive Florida city of 125,000 anchored by the sprawling University of Florida campus also criticized the lanky preacher with the bushy white mustache. At least two dozen Christian churches, Jewish temples and Muslim organizations in the city have mobilized to plan inclusive events — some will read from the Quran at their own weekend services. A student group is organizing a protest across the street from the church Saturday.

Gainesville's new mayor, Craig Lowe, who during his campaign became the target of a Jones-led protest because he is openly gay, has declared Sept. 11 Interfaith Solidarity Day in the city.

The fire department has denied Jones a required burn permit, but he said lawyers have told him he has the right to burn the Qurans, with or without the city's permission.

In Afghanistan, Jones' planned burning continued to provoke outrage.

"It is the duty of Muslims to react," said Mohammad Mukhtar, a cleric and candidate for the Afghan parliament in the Sept. 18 election. "When their holy book Quran gets burned in public, then there is nothing left. If this happens, I think the first and most important reaction will be that wherever Americans are seen, they will be killed. No matter where they will be in the world they will be killed."

Kabul resident, Rajab Ali said, "If this (burning of the Quran) happens there will be chaos in Afghanistan and being a Muslim, if we don't defend the Quran then what else we can do?"

The Quran, according to Jones, is "evil" because it espouses something other than biblical truth and incites radical, violent behavior among Muslims.

Muslims consider the Quran along with any printed material containing its verses or the name of Allah or the Prophet Muhammad to be sacred. Any intentional damage or show of disrespect Quran is deeply offensive.

Jones' Dove Outreach Center is independent of any denomination. It follows the Pentecostal tradition, which teaches that the Holy Spirit can manifest itself in the modern day. Pentecostals often view themselves as engaged in spiritual warfare against satanic forces.

___

Associated Press writers Kimberly Dozier and Robert Reid in Kabul, Curt Anderson in Miami and Matthew Lee, Mark Sherman and Anne Flaherty in Washington contributed to this report.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/nation/7191271.html

Pete

09-08-2010, 11:00

"......"It is the duty of Muslims to react," said Mohammad Mukhtar, a cleric and candidate for the Afghan parliament in the Sept. 18 election. "When their holy book Quran gets burned in public, then there is nothing left. If this happens, I think the first and most important reaction will be that wherever Americans are seen, they will be killed. No matter where they will be in the world they will be killed."....."

Typical Islamic Religion of Peace talk - Ho-Hum

Now let some priest in the western world say "....."It is the duty of Christians to react," said Father Smith, a priest and candidate for the city council in this fall's election. "When their holy book Bible gets burned in public, then there is nothing left. If this happens, I think the first and most important reaction will be that wherever Muslims are seen, they will be killed. No mater where they will be in the world they will be killed."........."

Hate speech!!!! The dog must be driven from town.

Funny how so many people are OK with the double standard.

tonyz

09-08-2010, 11:02

GB's response to plan to burn Koran in Gainesville, FL here:

http://www.theblaze.com/blog/2010/09/06/thoughts-from-glenn-on-church-plan-to-burn-koran/

"I’m on vacation and trying to unplug but the news can make that hard. I just read the story about the Florida church planning to burn copies of the Koran.

What is wrong with us? It’s just like the Ground Zero mosque plan. Does this church have the right? Yes. Should they? No. And not because of the potential backlash or violence. Simply because it is wrong. The more I reflect on what happened on 8/28 the more I realize the amazing power of GOOD.

We must be the better person. We must be bigger than our problems. Bigger than the times in which we live. Burning the Koran is like burning the flag or the Bible. You can do it, but whose heart will you change by doing it? You will only harden the hearts of those who could be moved. None of those who are thinking about killing us will be affected, but our good Muslim friends and neighbors will be saddened. It makes the battle that they face inside their own communities even harder.

Let us rise above the current levels and elevate ourselves and our country. The only thing this act would prove is that you CAN burn a Koran. I didn’t know America was in doubt on that fact. Let’s prove to each other that while there are many things we can do, there are maybe many more things that we choose not to do."

SF-TX

09-08-2010, 11:16

I do hope that the efforts by those on this board (and countless others) convince this misguided pastor that his burning of a Koran produces nothing positive for society - nothing.

Just my $ .02 - YMMV.

That remains to be seen. In my opinion burning the Koran is not a good tactic, but events like this are inevitable as long as the electorate believes our elected and unelected leaders are failing to confront real and perceived threats.

nmap

09-08-2010, 11:20

We must be the better person. We must be bigger than our problems. Bigger than the times in which we live.

Why? No, really and truly, why?

It seems we have been following this strategy for some time. Has it worked? Has Islam suddenly become more peaceful and tolerant?

If it hasn't worked, what logic is there in repeating a pattern that has shown itself to be pointless and useless?

Burning the Koran is like burning the flag or the Bible. You can do it, but whose heart will you change by doing it?

Once again - has the current policy had any positive effect? Have hearts and minds been gained by being ever-so-gentle with the delicate Islamic sensibilities?

Let us rise above the current levels and elevate ourselves and our country. The only thing this act would prove is that you CAN burn a Koran.

Personally, I would prefer to print an alternative version, under the principles of "fair use" and "parody", then use it as a fund raiser. And maybe give some money to Israel, just to be annoying. Then I could prove that annoying others can be both fun and profitable.

On a more serious note, I'll develop more concern for their feelings when they demonstrate more concern for mine. A deceased associate of mine once said: "Show me a good loser, and I'll show you a loser." Right now, I perceive the strategy of being the better person as analogous to being a good loser. MOO, YMMV.

tonyz

09-08-2010, 11:39

Funny how so many people are OK with the double standard.

Personally, I despise the double standard.

Racism is racism, hatred is hatred.

No one group has a monopoly on the "ism's."

Generally, I despise the burning (desecration) of the Flag, the Bible or the Koran.

dadof18x'er

09-08-2010, 11:42

Why? No, really and truly, why?

It seems we have been following this strategy for some time. Has it worked? Has Islam suddenly become more peaceful and tolerant?

more peaceful? this Imam says no.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4R698pbAQOg

nmap

09-08-2010, 11:51

No "proof " needed, IMO, Nmap, --mostly fun, sometimes profitable.

What does work then? And what, in your opinion, would consist of policy that "works?"

Well, counselor, since you are surely adept in use of the Socratic method, I think you will find ample grist for some fun in my response. ;)

It is my opinion that the world functions based on a conflict model. Not cooperation, not sweet compromise. In the end, there is a winner and a loser. It does not matter whether we're looking at bacteria or plants, insects or people, nations or political philosophies or religious beliefs. I suppose some would brand this as Darwinism writ large.

If this is true, then strength will tend to gather further strength, whereas weakness will lead to greater deterioration. By strength, I do not suggest mere brute force or mindless violence. Rather, I urge the intelligent and consistent assertion of strength and the overt, robust resistance of attacks.

How does this apply to the current issue and thread topic? One of our widely espoused values is freedom of speech and expression. In this instance, in my opinion, public officials should neither praise nor criticize the church nor its actions. Rather, they should simply assert that we value freedom of expression, the burning of the koran is an example of the exercise of that right, and therefore the actions of the church are lawful within our society. Those who objected to the actions of the church would then be ignored by officialdom.

Contrast this behavior with the present paradigm where our society apologizes continually for its beliefs and values. Islam advances its agenda and the West retreats in an ongoing and constantly repeated dance. An observer could hardly be blamed for concluding that Islam believes in its principles whereas the West is unwilling to stand by what it says it believes in. That hypothetical observer could hardly be blamed for choosing strength over weakness. More pointedly, our demonstration of weakness, which we think of as being the better person, drives hearts and minds away.

So, then, extend the specific policy to general application. We should choose our values and beliefs carefully and wisely. We should understand them. And we should then defend them. If we don't, we suggest that we don't really embrace our own beliefs - and we can hardly blame others for accepting our clear conclusion.

tonyz

09-08-2010, 11:51

nmap - re post #68 - those are Beck's quotes not mine. I was sharing his post as the email hit my in box. Beck can defend his own quotes but I will comment generally.

As stated, I see no good from this symbolic action (burning a Koran). I have no problem with hitting an enemy very, very, hard and very direct - when it will actually (tactically and strategical) produce some positive result for us.

I fear that this burning of a sacred book is simply an ineffective emotional reaction that yields at most - momentary raw emotional satisfaction - for some - to the strategic detriment of the overall efforts of others.

I welcome opposing opinions certainly more learned than mine in this regard. I remain open minded with the exception that burning a book makes one a winner.

tonyz

09-08-2010, 12:08

Contrast this behavior with the present paradigm where our society apologizes continually for its beliefs and values. Islam advances its agenda and the West retreats in an ongoing and constantly repeated dance. An observer could hardly be blamed for concluding that Islam believes in its principles whereas the West is unwilling to stand by what it says it believes in. That hypothetical observer could hardly be blamed for choosing strength over weakness.

Agreed and IMHO we have the wrong political leadership - current leadership epitomizes the appeasement model.

But burning a book by a pastor with reportedly less than 100 parishioners in his flock... that's not strong, that's just stupid.

The Reaper

09-08-2010, 12:15

nmap

09-08-2010, 12:18

Tonyz, I apologize for the mis-attribution of the source and stand corrected.

Burning the koran gets the church some attention - which is what they wanted. As you suggest, it probably does no good for the greater society - although I find the widespread sense of outrage hilarious.

Likewise, your point about the emotional outlet for some is well-taken. I would point out that many societies - Islamic societies among them - have public outpourings. In effect, they seem remarkably similar to the "hate" sessions in Orwell's 1984.

Burning a book is a tactic. The appropriate use of such tactics determine whether one is a winner or loser. In this instance, I strongly suspect that the church - or at least, its pastor- is using the tactic to gain attention. He has succeeded. He is now on the world stage. Thus, he won - at least in the short term.

Ahh, but what of the greater societies - the West and Islam? The West is falling all over itself with apologies. Could a whipped puppy be more pathetic? And Islam is busy making threats. So...my conclusion...YMMV...is that this publicity stunt has catalyzed a small loss by the West and a small win by Islam.

Sigaba

09-08-2010, 13:04

Why? No, really and truly, why?Two reasons. First, ultimately, GWOT is not about who "they" are, but who we are.

Second, Klio always gets the last word.

tonyz

09-08-2010, 13:05

Nmap - agreed - the small church has gained notoriety - and that is probably success for them. But, you know that it takes more than notoriety to make a winner or a looser...my gosh think of most of "hollywierd."

For the record - I'm not one who is "outraged"...but the story has developed a national following and thus spun me up sufficiently to comment.

Moreover, the West is, for all practical purposes, in conflict with much of the Islamic world (they certainly are in conflict with us). I'm not a hater - I'm a pragmatist.

Thus, I am concerned about a very small church's very public actions - and its potential for jeopardizing success for the West during this conflict. If burning the Koran in Gainesville, FL actually strikes fear in the hearts of our enemy, saves lives, and ends the conflict in our favor - then burn baby, burn. That would make it a damn good tactic, right?. Why didn't we do this a long time ago? :D

On the other hand....

Richard

09-08-2010, 13:17

It's so difficult to find answers in a 'branded' world.

Richard's $.02 :munchin

Richard

09-08-2010, 15:18

The political scientist Volker Perthes is the director of the German Institute for International and Security Affairs in Berlin and has published numerous studies on the Near and Middle East. He sees five key ways for Europe to take constructive action in the Muslim world.

A thought-provoking read.

Richard :munchin

Angry Young Muslims
Volker Perthes, ABHaber, 8 Sep 2010

Western policy-makers have gradually realised that any analysis of extremist groups defining themselves as Islamic has to make differentiations. There is a politically relevant distinction between movements that follow a local political agenda and therefore have a local basis with negotiable objectives, and those who believe they are fighting a global battle transcending space and time.

This fine line was ignored in the Bush administration's "Global War on Terror", but has since been rediscovered by American government bodies. Nevertheless, one must not overlook the transnational mood in large parts of the Arab and Muslim world, which at least makes it easier to mobilise violent elements in the name of a combative Islam.

Although the majority in these countries is by no means radical or violence-oriented, we can now find at least two generations of young men – and a number of women – from Morocco to Pakistan and even in the Muslim diaspora in Europe, whose anger is tipping over into violence or indifference towards violent means.

Political anger, religious language

While the generation that produced the founders of al-Qaeda grew up with the US-supported Islamic Jihadists' struggle for liberation from Soviet occupation in Afghanistan, the younger generation was socialised in the shadow of the American war on terror, which many understand as a Western war against Islam.

These generations' anger is no longer channelled by revolutionary regimes or national liberation movements. That anger is still political, but the angry young Muslims, and particularly their intellectual leaders, use religious language to legitimise their extremely radical resistance.

In structural terms, this opposition is based on three different phenomena. The first is the conditions in the countries in question, which are considered unjust – poor governance: corruption, disrespect for human rights, poor rule of law and social inequality. Islamic theology has often denounced unjust rule as un-Islamic, making it easy to come to the utopian reverse conclusion that a return to "true Islam" would guarantee the justice people want.

Palestine – an open wound

The second problem is activists' feeling that their own countries are being held back in their development by foreign, non-Muslim powers, above all the West. They see that Western governments support Arab autocrats, and they would regard any US or Israeli military action against Iran simply as a further example of the West's attempts to keep Muslim nations down.

The third element is the conflict over Palestine. Not that there would be no extremist movements in the Muslim world or no Islamist terrorism if the Palestinians had their own state. However, the conflict remains the most important open wound on which this extremism feeds, and the most important symbol for mobilising those who believe Islam is involved in a fight for its existence with the West. This is most effective outside of Palestine – for the Palestinians, realising their national ambitions is a concrete goal, not a symbolic one, which they attempt to achieve by political, diplomatic or violent means, but hardly through "global jihad".

The nation state and democracy

Dealing with extremism on an Islamic basis is primarily a battle for the future of the Arab and Muslim world. Particularly the first dimension of anger described above can only be tackled by far-reaching political reforms in these countries. The autocratic regimes selected as partners in alliances with the West, however, are rarely prepared to take such steps. European governments can call for and support reforms. Yet Europe's policy-makers must start thinking about how their own decisions contribute to increasing or decreasing the potential for anger in the Muslim world.

Five brief proposals:

Europe should support actors in the Arab and Muslim world who take peaceful action for change in their countries. This also means accepting that civil society includes not only those involved in secular discourses, but also conservative Islamic forces. One thing is certain: without the national moderate forces of political Islam, there will be no sustainable political reforms in the Arab world.

Political change is never linear; it is always full of contradictions, detours and setbacks. It is therefore advisable to break down the concept of democracy into its constitutive elements for operational purposes. That means in particular the rule of law, human rights, independent justice, transparency, freedom of opinion and free elections, whereby these are the decisive but certainly not the first and only necessary element of sustainable political reform. Democracy – and this is essential – cannot come before a much more all-encompassing process of state building; statehood is instead a precondition for consolidated democracy.

In the development of states, there is a close link between economic process, educational status, the growth of the middle classes and the chances of anchoring pluralism and democratic processes. That means that promoting the development of new middle classes remains a correct way to lay foundations for change.

It is essential that the West does not ignore the significance of the Arab-Israeli conflict, and increasingly that of the conflict in Iraq, for the region's political development. In the eyes of the Arab states, Europe's credibility, not just that of the USA, is measured in terms of our states' willingness to act towards ending these conflicts.

Where is the clash?

Although the rifts have grown deeper, there is no clash of civilisations that positions "the West" against "Islam". The real clash is taking place within Arab-Islamic civilisation. The boundary runs between those who want to lead their countries to globalisation, and reactionary utopians who would like to put their societies into totalitarian strait-jackets.

It is up to us Europeans to decide whether we make life harder for our actual and potential partners in the region by making them the object of our policy, or whether we support them through credible action on the political, social and economic front.

http://www.abhaber.com/english/ozelhaber.php?id=172

nmap

09-08-2010, 15:23

Two reasons. First, ultimately, GWOT is not about who "they" are, but who we are.

Second, Klio always gets the last word.

On the first point, I guess we see things differently. Conflict involves two parties, at least. So the GWOT is about who we are and also who they are.

And....who or what is a Klio???? :confused:

Nmap - agreed - the small church has gained notoriety - and that is probably success for them. But, you know that it takes more than notoriety to make a winner or a looser...my gosh think of most of "hollywierd."

Notoriety is another tool - and don't think that the holly-weird don't use and exploit it at every opportunity. For some, notoriety is winning.

Thus, I am concerned about a very small church's very public actions - and its potential for jeopardizing success for the West during this conflict.

But Tonyz - are we winning? And if our success hangs by such a fragile thread that the actions of an inconsequential little church can derail our efforts, then that says some fairly harsh things about our progress over the years, doesn't it?

And yet, when Obama did just that in response to the mosque outrage, he was sliced and diced and accused of supporting it.

As I recall, it didn't help when he attended an Islamic gathering and said things which seemed (to me, at least) as supportive.

There are often vast differences between what the law allows and "a good idea." Obviously if flag burning is protected, then so is bible burning and koran burning. I think all are equally stupid , high-school-ish ways to make a point. Not that I am not sympathetic to the urge to be stupid and high-school-ish.

It may be exactly as you say. I'm inclined to view such behavior as an attempt to get people to look - and that can have its value. I'll ask the rhetorical question - if one was the leader of a 50-person organization with meager resources, how would one gain the national stage? As matters stand, I would say the effort has succeeded.

As far as the world being conflict -driven, I might hate to admit it but you are probably right. At least as long as there are limited resources and limited spaces.

I know that in playing Civilization Call to Power I can never win unless I start killing off other cities. I just wish MRFL wouldn't enjoy slaughtering the lawyers so much.

People don't understand the exponential function - and by that I mean that our species simply does not comprehend what compounding of a growth rate leads to. My own city boasts a 2.6% growth rate - but no one talks about how we'll deal with an extra 1.2 million people...who will need water...and we live in a semi-arid area. No one discusses how we'll get the sewers, roads, schools, and electrical infrastructure built to deal with that population, either.

If one looks at many Islamic countries, one notices high rates of population growth, large increases above historic population levels - and ever tighter constraints on resources and spaces. The pressure to emigrate - leading them to the U.S., Europe, and elsewhere is clearly substantial. IMO, it will become more so. But that means that the cultural conflict is likely to continue and get steadily worse - again, IMO.

And what happens if, as I believe, resource constraints hit hard in the coming years? Then we'll have more conflict, and more deadly conflict - and it won't be just lawyers in the sights. By and large, the West functions (IMO!) according to an abundance model - we believe there's plenty for everyone. We might want to consider whether a scarcity model will more accurately describe the future.

Richard

09-08-2010, 15:30

From the Hurriyet (Turkey) - the responses from readers are interesting.

Florida church defiant over Quran burning

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php?n=florida-church-defiant-over-quran-burning-2010-09-08

And so it goes...

Richard :munchin

Sten

09-08-2010, 15:44

As am infidel to each side here so my "I am not too many steps from some jack hole getting the idea that God wants him to lit me on fire" spider sense is running in the red. I am already sure that the religion of peace has it out for me but dag, I kind of hoped that the Christians would not come for me as well.

akv

09-08-2010, 15:48

So we should expect the same level of indignation from everyone here when someone desecrates a Bible, a crucifix, or a U.S. flag? Or do we treat the Muslims differently because we respect Islamic sensitivities, but mock Christians? I miss the exemption clause for selected religious beliefs in the Bill of Rights? I would challenge everyone here to critically examine their beliefs when someone is offending Christians, or another non-protected faith. Are you afraid, or just a hater?

TR,

My question is doesn't that depend on who is expressing the indignation and the circumstances? I'm not sure how many Americans really give a hoot about what the Black Panthers feel, even if most of us find flag or holy book burning repulsive and uncouth. As for the General and POTUS, reality is we have troops in harms way in Islamic countries, and the nature of this war entails heavy civilian interaction. I can't interpret Zero, but the General all the way overseas commenting on this is telling, surely he has bigger things on his plate in Afghanistan, why would he care enough to comment on what some little church in FL does unless he thinks it might affect his mission and his men? Respectfully Sir, IMHO this preachers actions do more harm than good to perceptions of Christianity and more importantly America domestically and abroad.

greenberetTFS

09-08-2010, 15:57

TR,

My question is doesn't that depend on who is expressing the indignation and the circumstances? I'm not sure how many Americans really give a hoot about what the Black Panthers feel, even if most of us find flag or holy book burning repulsive and uncouth. As for the General and POTUS, reality is we have troops in harms way in Islamic countries, and the nature of this war entails heavy civilian interaction. I can't interpret Zero, but the General all the way overseas commenting on this is telling, surely he has bigger things on his plate in Afghanistan, why would he care enough to comment on what some little church in FL does unless he thinks it might affect his mission and his men? Respectfully Sir, IMHO this preachers actions do more harm than good to perceptions of Christianity and more importantly America domestically and abroad.

Respectfully TR,I believe this young man is right on target!............:)

Big Teddy :munchin

tonyz

09-08-2010, 16:04

Notoriety is another tool - and don't think that the holly-weird don't use and exploit it at every opportunity. For some, notoriety is winning.

I Agree that to some notoriety is "winning" but that does not make a winner. This pastor and this little church in Gainesville are now "notorious."

But Tonyz - are we winning? And if our success hangs by such a fragile thread that the actions of an inconsequential little church can derail our efforts, then that says some fairly harsh things about our progress over the years, doesn't it?

nmap - I honestly don't know if we are winning. As to the second part of your question - that is interesting - let me be blunt, I believe that this stunt may cost American lives unnecessarily.

This inconsequential little church is proposing to engage in an activity that may serve to radicalize some Muslims that are currently on the fence. The actions of this church may create an open hunting season if you will - on American's worldwide - with little if any upside for us - except to say that our laws permit it and we "stood up" to the big bad radical Islam - by what, burning a book? It may offend them but it does not displace them (our radical enemies).

In the end, it is not our success hanging on the fragile thread that I fear will be sidetracked by the actions of this church - I fear the irrational behavior in response to an act that produces little or no upside. I guess that little church will be able to say we showed them !

I agree that in conflict there is a time and place for symbolic actions - but until our political leadership stops apologizing, appeasing and acknowledges that we are in a fight for our lives with radical Islamic terrorists...and acts more accordingly...I fear that all that little church will be successful in accomplishing is to become even more notorious for having both ash and blood on their hands. I sure hope I'm wrong.

Buffalobob

09-08-2010, 16:14

When I was in high school one of the Beatles made the comment that they had more fans than Jesus Christ when he was alive. This caused an outrage amongst the religious community and a record burning was held off Rainbow Drive in Gadsden, Alabama. For those of you too young to know what a record is I would simply comment that it is a thin round disc that plays on a phonograph. If you don't know what a stereo turntable looks like PM me and I will send you a picture of what was once state of the art.

One night at the First Baptist Church of Atallla, Alabama the minister called upon all of us faithful to join him in a picket of the local theater which was showing Tom Jones in "What's New, Pussycat".

As I said once or twice before I have little tolerance for excessive stupidity. There are loony tunes everywhere and religion has it share. Seems as though little has changed in 50 years.

Utah Bob

09-08-2010, 16:38

This alleged "Man of God" has never had such publicity and is lapping the attention up like I used to go after C-rat pears. Yum.

It has now become a media freight train and the engineer just jumped off.:rolleyes:

Richard

09-08-2010, 16:53

The man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed.

I read this, I know I did. What book? I can't remember.

The Dark Tower.

Richard :munchin

Pete

09-08-2010, 16:58

Once again a really non-story was picked up by the MSM, force feed down Americans TVs, passed around the world for others to get hyped up about, politicians to get airtime, etc, etc, etc.

Does it ever happen if the MSM does not report it?

They try it with the stories they don't like.

They pumped this one because it fit their views.

nmap

09-08-2010, 17:15

Something occurs to me:

LINK (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100907/ap_on_re_us/quran_burning)

Excerpt:

All the attention has caused other problems for Jones, too. He believes it's the reason his mortgage lender has demanded full payment of the $140,000 still owed on the church property. He's seeking donations to cover it, but recently listed the property for sale with plans to eventually move the church away from Gainesville.

So....we have a need for $140,000. The congregation, apparently, does not have the money. The pastor wants to raise some quick cash.

What do do? Generate some publicity, solicit some donations... :cool:

Is such cynical behavior possible? I'll leave that for others to decide.

tonyz

09-08-2010, 17:23

So....we have a need for $140,000. The congregation, apparently, does not have the money. The pastor wants to raise some quick cash.

What do do? Generate some publicity, solicit some donations... :cool:

Is such cynical behavior possible? I'll leave that for others to decide.

A possible ulterior motive by a member of the clergy...I'm shocked.

I do know this, if that pastor burns those books on national TV - HD footage will be “tacked up” in the opposing team’s locker room before you can say holy shi’at.

greenberetTFS

09-08-2010, 17:32

If Christ were here there is one thing he would not be--a Christian.

- Mark Twain's Notebook

How true,how so sad,but very true..............:(:(:(

Big Teddy :munchin

craigepo

09-08-2010, 17:33

Martin Luther King Jr. once said:
"if your opponent has a conscience, then follow Gandhi. But if your enemy has no conscience, like Hitler, then follow Bonhoeffer."

(Bonhoeffer, for those who don't know, was a Lutheran pastor who went back to Nazi Germany to take on Hitler, became involved with German underground forces, set up covert seminaries for pastors not desiring to be "Nazi certified", spent three years in a Nazi prison, and was hung three weeks before Berlin fell. A statue of him now adorns the "martyr's wall" at Westminster Abbey. The books he wrote in prison are considered to be Christian classics.)

Likewise, this church's actions will have several different audiences, some with consciences, others without. On one hand, Western audiences will likely view a book-burning, whether it is the Koran or any other book, with the same distaste as they view old footage of Nazis burning books. Indeed, many will see a burning pile of books, and instantly mentally lapse into memories of Nazi book-burning. The message will be lost, as most Westerners prefer debate to the visual violence this act must entail.

Assuming the church wishes to reach a Muslim population, the end result could well be the same, although the mental processes would surely be different. When Americans see Middle Easterners burning an American flag, any message contained therein is automatically blocked. The reactions range from consternation to rage. I see no reason to believe that a Muslim reaction would differ significantly from that of an American.

That said, this small church's actions smack of genius of a sort. The 50 people in this congregation now have the focus of half the world, all waiting to see what happens in the church's yard on September 11. $20 million dollars would not have purchased this much advertising.

Were I advising this church, I would have them build a big fire pit this week. They would also erect a huge speaking stand. On September 11th, when the TV crews show up, the pastor would jump up on the stand, and start reading all of the passages of the Koran that totally contradict Western sensibilities. When done reading, we would build a fire(not out of Korans), roast some hot dogs, and feed the news crews and folks who gathered to watch what happened. The Korans would be safe, and the church would have had a huge, free opportunity to get their message out.

GratefulCitizen

09-08-2010, 17:40

One has to wonder what the reaction of various muslims will be.

Will they riot?
Will they burn people in effigy?
Will they threaten to kill anyone who does not submit to Islam?
(Ummm...they already do that...)

Will all of the thousands of people who are part of the "burn a koran" webpage have fatwas issued against them?

How many fatwas have been issued against people over at the Jawa Report?
They don't seem scared.

Had a close friend in high school who found all of the nonsensical teenage posturing games quite amusing.
He would ignore the games and say: "What are they gonna do? Take away my birthday?"

I think I'll go download a copy of the koran and delete it (thanks, Nmap).
-What are they gonna do? Take away my birthday?

Much ado about nothing.

greenberetTFS

09-08-2010, 18:03

Utah Bob

09-08-2010, 19:47

Assuming the church wishes to reach a Muslim population,

I believe they only want to reach the Muslims with a Holy Hand Grenade.

Utah Bob

09-08-2010, 19:49

Martin Luther King Jr. once said:

Were I advising this church, I would have them build a big fire pit this week. They would also erect a huge speaking stand. On September 11th, when the TV crews show up, the pastor would jump up on the stand, and start reading all of the passages of the Koran that totally contradict Western sensibilities. When done reading, we would build a fire(not out of Korans), roast some hot dogs, and feed the news crews and folks who gathered to watch what happened. The Korans would be safe, and the church would have had a huge, free opportunity to get their message out.

Except the pastor admits he has never actually read the Koran.:rolleyes:

T-Rock

09-08-2010, 19:54

Anyone marching with Fred Phelps gets very little sympathy from me...

http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/203848.php

http://libertypundits.net/article/breaking-quran-burning-church-linked-to-west-baptist-church/

Nevertheless, it's insane for Muslims to riot and kill over the burning of a book, or burning and killing over RIDDA.

..no matter how many condemnations, apologies, or acts of tolerance occur in the West, no matter how many mosques are built or repaired with U.S. taxpayer money (in countries where it would be impossible to build a church), no matter how many times Secretary of State Hilary Clinton says "Holy Koran" instead of just plain Koran, no matter whether the words "Islam" and "Islamism" are barred from U.S. government documents, these efforts will have virtually no impact on Middle Eastern public opinion. Why? For one thing, because public attitudes have been thoroughly prepared to be hostile and disbelieving; for another, few will ever hear about such things because the media will not report on them, neither will public institutions
Source: http://rubinreports.blogspot.com/2010/09/possible-burning-of-one-koran-definite.html

:munchin

Foot Drill

09-08-2010, 20:40

SF-TX

09-08-2010, 21:11

Except the pastor admits he has never actually read the Koran.:rolleyes:

Source?

SF-TX

09-08-2010, 21:15

That said, this small church's actions smack of genius of a sort. The 50 people in this congregation now have the focus of half the world, all waiting to see what happens in the church's yard on September 11. $20 million dollars would not have purchased this much advertising.

Were I advising this church, I would have them build a big fire pit this week. They would also erect a huge speaking stand. On September 11th, when the TV crews show up, the pastor would jump up on the stand, and start reading all of the passages of the Koran that totally contradict Western sensibilities. When done reading, we would build a fire(not out of Korans), roast some hot dogs, and feed the news crews and folks who gathered to watch what happened. The Korans would be safe, and the church would have had a huge, free opportunity to get their message out.

That would be ingenious.

dadof18x'er

09-08-2010, 22:15

why all the fuss about burning korans? muslims have been burning Christians in Sudan for years and many people haven't heard of it. :(

http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=19113

lksteve

09-08-2010, 22:19

Were I advising this church, I would have them build a big fire pit this week...When done reading, we would build a fire(not out of Korans), roast some hot dogs, and feed the news crews and folks who gathered to watch what happened. Heck, if you're going to the trouble to dig a pit, might as well roast a pig...but that's just me...

charlietwo

09-08-2010, 22:58

It might open your eyes to the depravity inspired by Islam.

Leftist claptrap. I subscribe to the view held by Father Zakarias Botros; "As I love Muslims, I hate Islam." (http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20823&highlight=zakarias+botros)

Sounds like "Hate the sin, not the sinner." I can definitely jump on that bandwagon. I have absolutely no love for Islam and find it to be a brilliant trojan horse for evil.

akv

09-08-2010, 23:00

That would be ingenious.

Yes, a highly leveraged marketing ploy, however ingenious strategies often reap powerful yet unanticipated results. Given the cast of fundamental unsavory characters involved, media frenzy, and prepackaged international stage, they might literally be buying more bang for the buck than anticipated.

Folks have discussed the possible ramifications for our troops abroad, but domestically how is this not chumming in the water for every psycho nut job Hassan type in country? A heaven sent boon to prove you can still hit America on the anniversary of that dark day with considerably less logistics required than 9/11, instead of murdering innocent civilians in the Towers, you are " defending Islam's holy books from desecration".

I thought a pastor was supposed to guide and protect his flock. Those who go looking for trouble seem to find it.

charlietwo

09-08-2010, 23:11

Bonhoeffer was taken from his concentration camp and hung two weeks before it was liberated and one week before Hitler took his life.............:(

Big Teddy :munchin

Jesus was crucified for fighting against the concept that one needs a middleman to communicate with God, but I would argue until I'm blue that Jesus won in the long run...

We may be on the same page here, TFS... Either way, great discussion.

craigepo

09-09-2010, 04:59

Jesus was crucified for fighting against the concept that one needs a middleman to communicate with God,...

That, and also to fulfill some 700 year old prophecies.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+53

nmap

09-09-2010, 05:14

Several people have mentioned the possibility of greater risks to American troops. I will defer to their assessment, since they surely know more of such things than do I. That said, I wonder if we might explore that idea a bit.

I'm under the impression that GEN Petraeus' strategy intentionally disperses U.S. troops throughout the AO instead of concentrating them in large and heavily defended bases. This has the known likelihood of increasing U.S. casualties. The benefits, according to my limited understanding, include taking the fight to the enemy, entering into areas the enemy thought were secure, and protecting the civilian population.

While I do not suggest that the pastor is a participant in some elegant strategy, I wonder if the book BBQ might not have the unintentional - but positive - side-effect of provoking the terrorists to act at an inopportune time? While it would increase risks, perhaps there is also the possibility of gain.

Thoughts?

Pete

09-09-2010, 06:00

Several people have mentioned the possibility of greater risks to American troops. I will defer to their assessment, since they surely know more of such things than do I. That said, I wonder if we might explore that idea a bit..............

Greater risk?

Well it now appears anything we do will add to "Greater risk to our troops."

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/imam-tv-shock-moving-mosque-would-endanger-u-s-troops/

blacksmoke

09-09-2010, 06:44

How come the president will not comment on the wisdom of burning Korans, but their right to do so?

blacksmoke

09-09-2010, 06:48

Greater risk?

Well it now appears anything we do will add to "Greater risk to our troops."

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/imam-tv-shock-moving-mosque-would-endanger-u-s-troops/

A layperson should be able to see through his thinly veiled disgust with America. "Radicals" will come out of the woodwork.

The Reaper

09-09-2010, 06:50

Is anyone else wondering how long it will be before the church is burned or its leaders are attacked?

TR

PedOncoDoc

09-09-2010, 07:29

Jesus was crucified for fighting against the concept that one needs a middleman to communicate with God...

Agree with above - I always had a hard time figuring out why confession to a priest was necessary because of this. (Yes, I was raised by a Roman Catholic mother who grew up in a small Polish farming community in norther Michigan.)

I always saw it as a way for the church to hold power over its members by gathering their dirty laundry...

Richard

09-09-2010, 07:29

I watched Pastor Jones on the morning news - he claims he'll stop the burning if he hears from God or will seriously consider not doing it if gets a call from the White House.

The perfect 'out' - I can see it now:

11 Sep 2010, cameras show DWOC Pastor Terry Jones, holding a Bible and standing on the grass in early morning sunshine at a microphone covered portable podium in front of sign hung on side of trailer announcing Koran burning day. Precisely at 8:46:40 a.m. the pastor raises the Bible above his head, gazing skyward, and speaks.

"Brethren...Jesus appeared to me in a dream last night and said to me, 'Terry'...he called me Terry...praise His name...'Terry, my faithful follower, do not do this thing in my name. Terry, it is not the way of which I have taught you. Terry, stop this thing.'"

The guy is more clever than he appears to be or sounds - I suspect the plans for the new, larger DWOC building with television outreach ministery will be announced soon.

The Nigerian scammers could learn a thing or two from Pastor Jones.

And so it goes...

Richard's jaded $.02 :munchin

the boy

09-09-2010, 08:00

The unfortunate byproduct of this display, regardless of one’s view on the topic is that we as an American people have put one of our citizens between a rock and a hard place of world opinion. Consider if you will the international impression gained from this incident if the pastor were to change his mind, and not burn the book. Regardless of what his reasons would be for not burning the book, the impression would be that the threats and promised violence from the Muslim world caused the sway in his action. Meaning that the opinions and views held by an interest group, originating from foreign countries, has caused one of our citizens to choose not to exercise one of his rights in spite of his intentions. The implied power that this would provide to that group is immense; replace this incident with any other highly publicized act of personal freedom by an American. The group could then choose what actions that it deems unacceptable to be performed by Americans, and through prior precedence, acting the same way, and produce the same result. The snow ball effect could have great implications if it were exploited.

The key here is that America did not unite behind the inherent right exercised in the act, ill advised or not. Americans should not be asking this person to stop exercising his right; we should only question the prudence. We saw many people burning flags in our country and around the world to protest various acts of America, we promised no such violence, we cited and defended their right to do so. By dividing our support between a citizen of our country and the sensitivities of an interest group, we have undermined our own national solidarity.

Just my humble opinion

Richard

09-09-2010, 08:13

...we as an American people have put one of our citizens between a rock and a hard place of world opinion.

Pastor Jones' personal actions placed himself in this spot...but I'm sure he sought the appropriate divine guidance concerning this matter prior to making such a decision for his ministry, his community, his country, and his faith.

Right. :rolleyes:

And so it goes...

Richard's $.02 :munchin

the boy

09-09-2010, 08:41

Pastor Jones' personal actions placed himself in this spot...but I'm sure he sought the appropriate divine guidance concerning this matter prior to making such a decision for his ministry, his community, his country, and his faith.

Right. :rolleyes:

And so it goes...

Richard's $.02 :munchin

I agree 100%, as usual the actions of the few screw it up for the many. I amend my prior statement and say that Jones has put America between a rock and a hard place.

Quite the vicious circle.

Pete

09-09-2010, 08:47

Pastor Jones' personal actions placed himself in this spot...but I'm sure he sought the appropriate divine guidance concerning this matter prior to making such a decision for his ministry, his community, his country, and his faith.

Right. :rolleyes:

And so it goes...

Richard's $.02 :munchin

So some some American in Florida burns a Koran and a Muslim in Afghanistan then kills a Christian.

Who is to blame?

Many here along with Muslims blame the American.

Me? I blame Islam.

tonyz

09-09-2010, 09:03

IMHO, from a purely propaganda standpoint this pastor's own actions have created a lose - lose situation…and now, he may be damned if he does - damned if he doesn’t.

But, this was a self inflicted wound.

Paslode

09-09-2010, 09:08

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100909/ap_on_re_as/quran_burning_reaction/print

Quran burning plan stirs outrage in Muslim world
By AMIR SHAH, Associated Press Writer Amir Shah, Associated Press Writer 41 mins ago

KABUL, Afghanistan – Hundreds of angry Afghans burned an American flag and chanted "Death to the Christians" on Thursday to protest plans by a small American church to torch copies of the Muslim holy book on the anniversary of the Sept. 11 terror attacks.

Local officials in Mahmud Raqi, the capital of the Kapisa province some 100 kilometers (60 miles) northeast of Kabul, estimated that up to 4,000 people took part in the protest. But NATO spokesman James Judge said the protest numbered between 500 to 700 people.

"The Afghan national police prevented the protest from overwhelming an Afghan military outpost," and dispersed the demonstration, he told The Associated Press.

Judge added that the Quran burning is "precisely the kind of activity the Taliban uses to fuel their propaganda efforts to reduce support" for coalition forces.

Abdul Hadi Rostaqi, a cleric council in Afghanistan's largely peaceful Balkh province, also said Thursday that, if the burning goes ahead, "a big protest will be held" in the provincial capital Mazar-i-Sharif next Monday. Protesters would hurl stones at NATO-led troops stationed in the city — one of the country's main centers of the Islamic teaching.

Religious and political leaders across the Muslim world, as well as several U.S. officials, have asked the church to call off the plan, warning it would lead to violence against Americans. The Rev. Terry Jones, of the Dove Outreach Center in Gainesville, Florida, has vowed to go ahead with the bonfire on Saturday, even though he has been denied the required permit.

About 200 people marched and burned a U.S. flag in the central Pakistani city of Multan.

"If Quran is burned it would be beginning of destruction of America," read one English-language banner held up by the protesters, who chanted "Down with America!"

Iran's Foreign Minister Manouchehr Mottaki also warned of repercussions, saying the burning would "face reactions by the world's Muslims as well as followers of other religions," according to the official IRNA news agency.

Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton has denounced the planned burning and Gen. David Petraeus, the top U.S. and NATO commander in Afghanistan, has said it could lead to attacks on international troops.

There are also fears of a backlash against Christians in predominantly Muslim countries. Canon Andrew White, the chaplain of an Anglican church in Baghdad, said the Iraqi military had warned him that his church had been threatened.

Security was beefed up around the Church of Virgin Mary in central Baghdad on Thursday, with military vehicles blocking the entrance to the church and more soldiers were deployed to guard it.

___

Associated Press writers around the world contributed to this report.

And burning the American flag and chanting Death to Christians is what fuels the Pastors and many others misgivings about the followers of the Religion of Peace.

Might as well burn the Koran, take the hit and get it over with, rather than cower in fear.....it is better than walking on eggs shells.

Richard

09-09-2010, 09:12

Me? I blame Islam.

I hold those who commit the action(s) responsible for their own behavior(s).

Richard's $.02 :munchin

Peregrino

09-09-2010, 11:54

When dealing with Islamists, historical precedent suggests killing enough of them that they figure out God isn't favoring their cause. That tends to quiet them down for a century or so while they regroup (to start the cycle all over again).

greenberetTFS

09-09-2010, 11:58

So some some American in Florida burns a Koran and a Muslim in Afghanistan then kills a Christian.

Who is to blame?

Many here along with Muslims blame the American.

Me? I blame Islam.

I stand with Pete..................:)

Big Teddy :munchin

Oldrotorhead

09-09-2010, 12:37

I hold those who commit the action(s) responsible for their own behavior(s).

Richard's $.02 :munchin

I might have some respect for this preacher IF he did this on 9/11 in fromt of the largest Mosque in Detroit. That would have demonstrated some huevos, and it could be a target rich environment for the preacher or the other side. I also agree with Pete.
:munchin

tonyz

09-09-2010, 13:31

Keeping up with the Joneses...and the religion of peace...

In pictures -- Anger at US pastor's Koran burning plan -- link below:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-11251850

nmap

09-09-2010, 13:56

OK, so the church doesn't have a permit to burn the things. And everyone is stirred up about burning it anyway.

So....how about serving some good pork BBQ....with pages ripped...err, I mean, gently removed... from the koran as placemats? Then everyone who wanted to read it could do so. Surely that would make everyone happy! :cool:

Paslode

09-09-2010, 13:57

To a large degree I feel on the home front we have been acquiescent towards the bullies from the Religion of Peace. They behave poorly in their host countries time and time again, and we brush it off similarly as we would a child with hope they grow out of it.

But like most bullies, they continue to push and push. Nothing changes unless some one confronts the situation head on, and IMO to a large degree we have been running from that fight.

My Dad had a rule. Ask the bully once to stop, if they continue you pick up the biggest stick you can find and beat them with it. The one caveat to that was any VOA on my must be provoked and not instigated on my part.

And the next time this particular big kid picked on me, I asked him to stop, I picked up a stick, laid it across the side of his face and he ran home screaming to mommy....and he never messed me again...he was actually civil.

I kind of think the Religion of Peace is way over due for a clubbing (figuratively speaking) and the Preacher may be the first who picks it up.

tonyz

09-09-2010, 14:42

nmap - there are a couple of nearby BBQ places that I could recommend for dinner - not quite up to Texas standards - IMHO - but passable. The beer would be on me. If I wasn't traveling this weekend, I might even get there to watch the game...oh, UF plays USF, too. Go Gators !

State has issued a travel alert - link below:

http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/pa/pa_5144.html

Dad

09-09-2010, 14:58

FWIW, if I remember correctly, the author pointed out that in Afghanistan basically nobody reads Arabic so they get their knowledge from the Imams. Except the problem is many of the Imams are also illiterate or don't understand Arabic. So God knows what the hell someone is telling them. I would expect more from a Christian minister in the US who has access to innumerable means of education. In a TV interview it was obvious the good Rev Jones has not read the Koran either. God save us from the religous fanatics of all stripes.

Snaquebite

09-09-2010, 15:37

Just heard a brief news alert on Fox saying the "pastor" has called off the Koran burning because the Imam behing the mosque at the WTC has agreed to build elsewhere. :munchin

Looking for the story...

Here:
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/2010/09/09/2010-09-09_pastor_terry_jones_to_call_off_koranburning_say s_he_made_deal_with_ground_zero_m.html

tonyz

09-09-2010, 15:38

I never realized how many villages must be missing idiots...

A report that the Westboro Baptist Church will pick up where pastor Jones left off.

Westboro Baptist Church to burn Qurans if Dove doesn't

By Chad Smith
Staff writer

Published: Thursday, September 9, 2010 at 2:42 p.m.
Last Modified: Thursday, September 9, 2010 at 5:20 p.m.

Westboro Baptist Church, the small Topeka, Kan., church that pickets funerals of American soldiers to spread its message that God is punishing the country for being tolerant of homosexuals, has vowed to hold a Quran burning if Gainesville's Dove World Outreach Center calls its off.

Link to full report below:

http://www.ocala.com/article/20100909/ARTICLES/100909743/1412?Title=Westboro-Baptish-Church-to-burn-Qurans-if-Dove-doesn-t

Paslode

09-09-2010, 15:46

Just heard a brief news alert on Fox saying the "pastor" has called off the Koran burning because the Imam behing the mosque at the WTC has agreed to build elsewhere. :munchin

Looking for the story...

It appears as though someone took the preacher seriously enough to back off......now for the media crucifixion and possibly hate crime investigation.

*EDIT*

OMG - Fred Phelps is now involved :mad: Hopefully I-70 remains open till I get West of Topeka.

Pete

09-09-2010, 15:46

......Westboro Baptist Church to burn Qurans if Dove doesn't...........

Westboro will do anything for attention.

Might be picking on the wrong crowd this time. They may get hurt. They are a bit "open" about where they'll be.

tonyz

09-09-2010, 16:13

Pete, if the folks at Westboro do this and get hurt...some might say Karma's a bitch.

Wonder if the folks at Westboro ever consider that they may reap what they sow?

Utah Bob

09-09-2010, 17:03

I smell a TV movie or possible reality show.:rolleyes:

tonyz

09-09-2010, 17:38

I smell a TV movie or possible reality show.:rolleyes:

...you just may be on to something...might breath new life into that tired phrase...."...the tribe has spoken...";)

Nightflyer

09-09-2010, 18:41

tonyz

09-09-2010, 18:52

Warrior Mentor- Dang! that didn't take long. jeez, how many people take that ride down Fruit Loop Highway? I heard, there's a deal in the works between Reverend Jones not firing up the Quran and the Iman moving away from Ground Zero? so says Rita Cosby. But Hey- what do I know? :munchin

Night

Sorry Night, out of profound respect for those who deserve the Warrior Mentor salutation - I am a civilian and not a Warrior Mentor.

But, I do hope that I have contributed something to the discussion and to this BB.

According to the reports - the crazies continue to posture.

MOO, they (the crazies) have enjoyed more than their 15 minutes of fame.

nmap

09-09-2010, 19:05

And now the pastor perceives that he was lied to...and away we go!

LINK (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/quran_burning;_ylt=AnSw95ZeQBc9VSTIXWTVJk1H2ocA;_y lu=X3oDMTJzNGxzY2RqBGFzc2V0Ay9zL2FwL3F1cmFuX2J1cm5 pbmcEY2NvZGUDbW9zdHBvcHVsYXIEY3BvcwMxBHBvcwMxBHNlY wN5bl90b3Bfc3RvcmllcwRzbGsDcGFzdG9yc2F5c3F1)

Excerpt: GAINESVILLE, Fla. – The anti-Muslim leader of a tiny Florida church says he was lied to and is rethinking his decision to cancel burning Qurans to mark 9/11.

tonyz

09-09-2010, 19:15

Best hypothetical news flash yet...Pastor Jones (following in the footsteps of his idol Rev. Jim) is suggesting a kool aid summit in Guyana with the leaders of Westboro.

Was that my outside voice?

ZonieDiver

09-09-2010, 19:16

Nothing surprises me in "Gator" country! :D

tonyz

09-09-2010, 19:23

Nothing surprises me in "Gator" country! :D

Ouch !

Actually a nice town - still have good friends there - it will always have a special place in my heart as it provided me with my first opportunity to teach. When I was approached, I asked them how much I'd have to pay them.

The locals will not enjoy this notoriety...cuts into football season !

ZonieDiver

09-09-2010, 19:41

Ouch !

Actually a nice town - still have good friends there - it will always have a special place in my heart as it provided me with my first opportunity to teach. When I was approached, I asked them how much I'd have to pay them.

The locals will not enjoy this notoriety...cuts into football season !

During "Gator" football season, I'll bet few of them even notice.

Go 'Canes! :D

(The Gainesville area is where I did my cave diving certification... fun place!)

tonyz

09-09-2010, 19:52

During "Gator" football season, I'll bet few of them even notice.

Go 'Canes! :D

(The Gainesville area is where I did my cave diving certification... fun place!)

Sorry about that Cane thing !

Lots of caves and springs in the Gainesville area - some nice rivers for paddling, too.

Having lived for a number of enjoyable years in Miami, also - I must say both areas have a lot to offer - just different. But, as I said, that little university in Gainesville holds a special place. Go Gators :lifter

charlietwo

09-09-2010, 21:15

charlietwo

09-09-2010, 21:23

Westboro will do anything for attention.

Might be picking on the wrong crowd this time. They may get hurt. They are a bit "open" about where they'll be.

Pardon the cynicism, but perhaps this could be a blessing in disguise. Any violence, even against deplorable folks such as the Westboro gang, is still violence against Americans, which is tolerated only by the suicidal left.

Am I crazy for wanting this conflict to come to a head sooner rather than later? It appears to be inevitable and massive, but we yawn while the Islamists gather strength. I feel like I should take a bath for wanting the conflict to expand, but the chessboard in my head does not get prettier with time.

T-Rock

09-09-2010, 21:28

The key here is that America did not unite behind the inherent right exercised in the act, ill advised or not. Americans should not be asking this person to stop exercising his right; we should only question the prudence. We saw many people burning flags in our country and around the world to protest various acts of America, we promised no such violence, we cited and defended their right to do so. By dividing our support between a citizen of our country and the sensitivities of an interest group, we have undermined our own national solidarity.

So some some American in Florida burns a Koran and a Muslim in Afghanistan then kills a Christian.

Who is to blame?

Many here along with Muslims blame the American.

Me? I blame Islam.

I agree and blame Islam as well. This whole SNAFU could have been avoided if it had been used as a teaching moment by our leaders to the world of barbarian savagery, highlighting the fact that in our FREE society, people have the freedom to burn flags, the bible, the qur'an, and even burn darwin's origin of species whether it's in good taste or not - The Founding Fathers are weeping.

The fearful stance taken by our leaders and elites in the media to intimidate a citizens Constitutional rights only reinforce that one of the primary directives of Islam is to bring everyone under the rule of Sharia law whether they like it or not. And when a free society's Government engages in limiting the free speech of a citizen on their own private property, Islamic supremacists have succeeded. The media elites and our President's stance on this issue only reinforces the lesson that Islamic Supremacists are sufficiently violent enough to cause western governments to fold... Spain comes to mind...

Rather than buring the Qur'an, I would propose a Qur'an reading day, highlighting the violent passages of the Qur'an codified by Sharia which promote racism, bigotry, hate, and murder, and that they do not belong in the 21st century...

The issue of the penalty for apostacy in Islam trumps Qur'an burning any day IMO - where is the media on this issue?

Will there be more concessions to follow? Imam Rauf says the Ground Zero Mosque is a National Security concern, American Soldiers and American Citizens may be in danger...

"If we don't do this right, anger will explode in the Muslim world," Rauf said. "... If we don't handle this crisis correctly, it could become something very dangerous indeed."

This crisis could become much bigger than the Danish Cartoon crisis which resulted in attacks on Danish embassies in various parts of the Muslim world..."

He said moving the project to another location would strengthen Islamist radicals' ability to recruit followers and will increase violence against Americans.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20YvwTQ0-kY

Will we concede? The push for accommodations and concessions to Islam is unceasing. Appeasing evil is always wrong and always strengthens the enemy. It only encourages their worst behavior. Just my 00.02 - YMMV

incarcerated

09-09-2010, 22:16

http://www.interpol.int/Public/ICPO/PressReleases/PR2010/PR069.asp

INTERPOL issues global alert for increased terror threat if Koran burning in US goes ahead as planned

09 September 2010
LYON, France – INTERPOL has today issued a global alert to its 188 member countries following the request of Pakistan’s Minister of the Interior, and its own determination, that if the proposed Koran burning by a pastor in the US goes ahead as planned, there is a strong likelihood that violent attacks on innocent people would follow....

.................................................. .................................................. ..............................................

http://www.voanews.com/english/news/US-Pastor-Reconsidering-Plan-to-Burn-Qurans-102598059.html

US Pastor Reconsidering Plan to Burn Qurans

10 September 2010
Brian Wagner
Gainesville, Florida
A U.S. pastor says he is reconsidering plans to burn Qurans on Saturday, amid concerns the event could spark violence by Islamic extremists around the world. Defense Secretary Robert Gates and religious leaders have reached out to the pastor, asking him to stop the event....

Pete

09-10-2010, 05:23

This whole deal shows how fake Muslims are in their faith.

Nothing happens except by the will of Allah.

So if somebody in America burns the Koran it is because Allah willed it.

Insha'Allah baby.

No - the outrage is to advance Islam.

The sooner you dhminnies get that through your head the better off you'll be.

Penn

09-10-2010, 07:59

Thank you Pete.

An interesting comment, as if this is not what will transpire, regardless of the appeasement process.

Lawyer Qamar Intizar Mohammad told Reuters, "If this happens in Florida on Sept. 11, there will be a reaction against the church across the world. Then a new war will begin between Muslims and Christians."

http://worldblog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2010/09/09/5078961-pakistan-reaction-to-quran-burning-plan-muted-so-far

Pete

09-10-2010, 08:16

.....Lawyer Qamar Intizar Mohammad told Reuters, "If this happens in Florida on Sept. 11, there will be a reaction against the church across the world. Then a new war will begin between Muslims and Christians.".....

What are they going to do? Burn Bibles and destroy Crosses?

Too late - been then, done that.

"Christians in Gaza Fear for Their Lives as Muslims Burn Bibles and Destroy Crosses"

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/285123/christians_in_gaza_fear_for_their_lives.html

"......Father Manuel Musallem, head of Gaza's Latin church, told the AP that Muslims have ransacked, burned and looted a school and convent that are part of the Gaza Strip's small Romany Catholic community. He told the AP that crosses were broken, damage was done to a statue of Jesus, and at the Rosary Sister School and nearby convent, prayer books were burned..........."

Many, many stories like this from all over the world about what the Religion of Peace does to others.

Maybe they should focus on cleaning their own house first.

SF-TX

09-10-2010, 12:06

Looks as if Governor Rick Perry has been reading this site. ;)

Perry: Quran burning wrong but allowed

By Corrie MacLaggan | Friday, September 10, 2010, 11:15 AM

As a Florida pastor continues to vacillate on whether he’ll burn Qurans, Texas Gov. Rick Perry today said that he objects to the idea, but that Americans have the right to do such things.

“Listen, I don’t condone those types of activities, whether it’s burning an American flag or burning a Bible, or burning a Quran, but the fact of the matter is Americans have a First Amendment right,” Perry told reporters. He added: “In a civil society, my read on that is that is a very objectionable act” and should not be done.

Perry, speaking at a press conference at a downtown Austin fire station to accept the endorsement of the Texas State Association of Firefighters, also addressed the Muslim community center near Ground Zero.

“It needs to be built somewhere else,” Perry said. “But again, in America, you’ve got a right to have your private property rights.”

Perry said it was no accident he was accepting the firefighters’ endorsement on the eve of the 9/11 anniversary. He reflected on the bravery of first responders on that day. Though “the sharpness of that day’s emotions have somewhat dulled with the passage of time, our nation’s respect for firefighters has remained strong,” Perry said.

http://www.statesman.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/austin/politics/entries/2010/09/10/gov_rick_perry_quran_burning_w.html

greenberetTFS

09-10-2010, 12:22

Pardon the cynicism, but perhaps this could be a blessing in disguise. Any violence, even against deplorable folks such as the Westboro gang, is still violence against Americans, which is tolerated only by the suicidal left.

Am I crazy for wanting this conflict to come to a head sooner rather than later? It appears to be inevitable and massive, but we yawn while the Islamists gather strength. I feel like I should take a bath for wanting the conflict to expand, but the chessboard in my head does not get prettier with time.

Excellent post,I agree with you 100%................:):):)

Big Teddy :munchin

SF-TX

09-10-2010, 12:29

Interesting commentary on the issue from a former soldier. :munchin

Timothy Furnish
What Would Jesus Do with a Qur'an? Actually, He Might Burn It

Reverend Dr. Terry Jones has said that he would hold plans to burn Qur’ans in abeyance pending a decision on whether he could meet with Imam Feisal Abdul Ra’uf, the man behind the proposed Ground Zero “Cordoba” Mosque, to discuss abandoning, or at least moving, that mosque. According to Jones, he was promised such a meeting by Imam Muhammad Musri, head of the Islamic Society of Central Florida; Musri disagrees.

Whoever is correct, the much more important issue is the violent petulance with which many Muslims around the world are responding to an event which has not even happened yet! According to AP:

*An Indonesian Muslim cleric said that “whether or not he burns the Quran, Jones had already hurt the heart of the Muslim world. If he'd gone through with it, it would have been tantamount to war,” the cleric said in the coastal town of Lhokseumawe. “A war that would have rallied Muslims all over the world.”

*President Hamid Karzai, of Afghanistan, said “Humiliation of the holy book represents the humilation of our people.”

*Hamas’ leader, Isma’il Haniyah, said referred to Reverend Jones as “this criminal, this liar, this crazy priest who reflects a crazy Western attitude toward Islam and the Muslim nation.”

These over-the-top screeds of victimization are making Reverend Jones appear more and more sympathetic. Burning a Qur’an is “tantamount to war?!” Doing so would “humiliate” 1.5 billion people? Jones is a “criminal” and “liar?” At this point, one could argue that Jones should go through with the burning of some Qur’ans just to demonstrate that 1) an American has First Amendment rights independent of threats and rent-a-mobs in the Middle East and South Asia; and 2) a Christian does not have to abide by the politically correct shibboleth that the Qur’an is a holy book. Most media analysts do not give this second point the justice it deserves, bending over backwards as they do (almost as far as the Obama Administration) to present the Islamic perspective in a positive light.

As a Christian, I do not accept that Muhammad received revelation from God, for many reasons (most of which would require a separate, and much longer, column), most saliently that he and his “revelation” deny (in Sura 4:157) the key doctrine of my, and 2.3 billion other Christians’, faith: the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, to atone for the entire human race’s sins. That does not mean Christians should run out to buy a Qur’an and toss it into the fireplace—but neither does it mean that we have to pay Muslim-mandated obeisance to its alleged “holiness,” either.

And contra the alleged “hate-mongering” of conservative radio, I have heard a number of AM talk show hosts, and their callers, the past few days disparaging Reverend Jones for his “un-Christ-like” attitude—stating for certain that “Jesus would never burn a Qur’an.” Actually, since it denies the key element of His role in the universe—His crucifixion and resurrection—I think He might very well approve of burning at least THAT part of the Qur’an; I also doubt that Jesus would have any problem with consigning to the flames the ayahs in Islamic scriptures that mandate attacking non-Muslims (Surah 9:5ff), beheading them (Surah 47:3 and 8:12) and beating one’s wives (Surah 4:34)—just to name a few of the more egregious passages. Furthermore, Jesus cursed and killed a fig tree that was not bearing fruit (Matthew 21:18ff; Mark 11:12ff) and ran money-lenders out of the Temple with a whip (John 2:15)—so, as G.K. Chesterton ably points out in The Everlasting Man (pp. 190-91), the “meek and mild Jesus” of popular imagination is NOT the only facet of His personality. Reverend Terry Jones is certainly not Jesus, but even a fundamenalist Pentecostal clock is right twice a day.

http://hnn.us/blogs/entries/131165.html

Timothy R. Furnish, Ph.D., is a recovering college professor and current writer, researcher and analyst specializing in Islamic history, sects, eschatology, ideology and Mahdism. He learned Arabic at taxpayers' expense while in the U.S. Army and, later, studied Farsi, Turkish and Ottoman while a doctoral student at Ohio State University. His first book was Holiest Wars: Islamic Mahdis, their Jihads and Osama bin Laden and his second, due out in 2010, is The Caliphate: Threat or Opportunity? He also maintains a website dedicated to covering Mahdism and Muslim eschatology: mahdiwatch.org.

About Timothy R. Furnish

I'm a Ph.D. in Islamic history (Ohio State, 2001) and work as a consultant, researcher and author on the topics of Islam, Mahdism, Jihadism, Shi`ism, other Islamic sects, the Caliphate and Eschatology in general. During the Reagan years I was an Arabic linguist in the 101st Airborne Division; later I was commissioned and trained as a (Christian) Army chaplain, although eventually opting for an academic, rather than a military-pastoral, career. My personal research specializations are Islamic eschatology (end of time beliefs), Mahdism, Islamic fundamentalism, jihadism, the Hidden Imam and how all of these relate to modern politics. I am currently also working on a new book on the caliphate, as both a historical institution and as envisioned today by Islamist groups like Hizb al-Tahrir.

Here's a link to an interview of me by the editor of the History News Network:
http://hnn.us/articles/29389.html

Source (http://www.mahdiwatch.org/id1.html)

nmap

09-10-2010, 12:32

A bit more than a month ago, I suggested that:

1) Group A can eliminate B.
2) Group A can surrender to B.
3) Group A can filter out the bad elements in B and remove them and no one else.

Group A represents non-Muslims. Group B represents Muslims.

LINK (http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=342629&postcount=146)

It seems that the majority of the current U.S. power structure has chosen item 2.

My conclusion that Western civilization has chosen its own demise remains in place.

stickey

09-10-2010, 13:29

I consider it part of my responsibility as President of the United States to fight against negative stereotypes of Islam wherever they appear.

Will Obama fight against the “negative stereotypes” of other religions as well?
Or is he respecting an establishment of a religion?

16540

When we first got to AFG, i remember looking at the juice box and wondering, "do they know that it says "joos"?"

Apparently this guy does. :rolleyes:

Bordercop

09-10-2010, 14:08

The link: http://michellemalkin.com/

By Michelle Malkin • September 10, 2010 08:24 AM

The eternal flame of Muslim outrage
by Michelle Malkin
Creators Syndicate
Copyright 2010

Shhhhhhh, we’re told. Don’t protest the Ground Zero mosque. Don’t burn a Koran. It’ll imperil the troops. It’ll inflame tensions. The “Muslim world” will “explode” if it does not get its way, warns sharia-peddling imam Feisal Abdul Rauf. Pardon my national security-threatening impudence, but when is the “Muslim world” not ready to “explode”?

At the risk of provoking the ever-volatile Religion of Perpetual Outrage, let us count the little-noticed and forgotten ways.

Just a few months ago in Kashmir, faithful Muslims rioted over what they thought was a mosque depicted on underwear sold by street vendors. The mob shut down businesses and clashed with police over the blasphemous skivvies. But it turned out there was no need for Allah’s avengers to get their holy knickers in a bunch. The alleged mosque was actually a building resembling London’s St. Paul’s Cathedral. A Kashmiri law enforcement official later concluded the protests were “premeditated and organized to vitiate the atmosphere.”

Indeed, art and graphics have an uncanny way of vitiating the Muslim world’s atmosphere. In 1994, Muslims threatened German supermodel Claudia Schiffer with death after she wore a Karl Lagerfeld-designed dress printed with a saying from the Koran. In 1997, outraged Muslims forced Nike to recall 800,000 shoes because they claimed the company’s “Air” logo looked like the Arabic script for “Allah.” In 1998, another conflagration spread over Unilever’s ice cream logo — which Muslims claimed looked like “Allah” if read upside-down and backward (can’t recall what they said it resembled if you viewed it with 3D glasses).

Even more explosively, in 2002, an al-Qaida-linked jihadist cell plotted to blow up Bologna, Italy’s Church of San Petronio because it displayed a 15th century fresco depicting Mohammed being tormented in the ninth circle of Hell. For years, Muslims had demanded that the art come down. Counterterrorism officials in Europe caught the would-be bombers on tape scouting out the church and exclaiming, “May Allah bring it all down. It will all come down.”

That same year, Nigerian Muslims stabbed, bludgeoned or burned to death 200 people in protest of the Miss World beauty pageant — which they considered an affront to Allah. They shouted, “Allahu Akbar!” And “Down with beauty!” And “Miss World is sin!” Contest organizers fled out of fear of inflaming further destruction. When Nigerian journalist Isioma Daniel joked that Mohammed would have approved of the pageant and that “in all honesty, he would probably have chosen a wife from among them,” her newspaper rushed to print three retractions and apologies in a row. It didn’t stop Muslim vigilantes from torching the newspaper’s offices. A fatwa was issued on Daniel’s life by a Nigerian official in the sharia-ruled state of Zamfara, who declared that “the blood of Isioma Daniel can be shed. It is abiding on all Muslims wherever they are to consider the killing of the writer as a religious duty.” Daniel fled to Norway.

In 2005, British Muslims got all hot and bothered over a Burger King ice cream cone container whose swirly-texted label resembled, you guessed it, the Arabic script for “Allah.” The restaurant chain yanked the product in a panic and prostrated itself before the Muslim world. But the fast-food dessert had already become a handy radical Islamic recruiting tool. Rashad Akhtar, a young British Muslim, told Harper’s Magazine how the ice cream caper had inspired him: “Even though it means nothing to some people and may mean nothing to some Muslims in this country, this is my jihad. I’m not going to rest until I find the person who is responsible. I’m going to bring this country down.”

In 2007, Muslims combusted again in Sudan after an infidel elementary school teacher innocently named a classroom teddy bear “Mohammed.” Protesters chanted, “Kill her, kill her by firing squad!” and “No tolerance — execution!” She was arrested, jailed and faced 40 lashes for blasphemy before being freed after eight days. Not wanting to cause further inflammation, the teacher rushed to apologize: “I have great respect for the Islamic religion and would not knowingly offend anyone, and I am sorry if I caused any distress.”

And who could forget the global Danish cartoon riots of 2006 (instigated by imams who toured Egypt stoking hysteria with faked anti-Islam comic strips)? From Afghanistan to Egypt to Lebanon to Libya, Pakistan, Turkey and in between, hundreds died under the pretext of protecting Mohammed from Western slight, and brave journalists who stood up to the madness were threatened with beheading. It wasn’t really about the cartoons at all, of course. Little-remembered is the fact that Muslim bullies were attempting to pressure Denmark over the International Atomic Energy Agency’s decision to report Iran to the UN Security Council for continuing with its nuclear research program. The chairmanship of the council was passing to Denmark at the time. Yes, it was just another in a long line of manufactured Muslim explosions that were, to borrow a useful phrase, “premeditated and organized to vitiate the atmosphere.”

When everything from sneakers to stuffed animals to comics to frescos to beauty queens to fast-food packaging to undies serves as dry tinder for Allah’s avengers, it’s a grand farce to feign concern about the recruitment effect of a few burnt Korans in the hands of a two-bit attention-seeker in Florida. The eternal flame of Muslim outrage was lit a long, long time ago.

echoes

09-10-2010, 16:06

Pardon the cynicism, but perhaps this could be a blessing in disguise. Any violence, even against deplorable folks such as the Westboro gang, is still violence against Americans, which is tolerated only by the suicidal left.

Am I crazy for wanting this conflict to come to a head sooner rather than later? It appears to be inevitable and massive, but we yawn while the Islamists gather strength. I feel like I should take a bath for wanting the conflict to expand, but the chessboard in my head does not get prettier with time.

After reading this entire thread, the above post boils it all down to reality, for me.

Very well said, Sir!!!

Holly---> shaking my head at this whole thing.....:confused:

T-Rock

09-10-2010, 17:03

Excerpt: GAINESVILLE, Fla. – The anti-Muslim leader of a tiny Florida church says he was lied to and is rethinking his decision to cancel burning Qurans to mark 9/11.

Who is this Imam the Qur’an burner is negotiating with?

Meet Imam Muhammad Musri, Governor Charlie Crist’s advisor, and Hamas fundraiser:

The Mosque, also known as the Islamic Society of Central Florida (ISCF), is led by Imam Mohammed Musri and owned by the North American Islamic Trust (NAIT). MAS and NAIT are co-conspirators in the largest terrorism funding case in US history (US vs. Holy Land Foundation).
"HAMAS is a designated Foreign Terrorist Organization," adds New English Review investigative analyst, Jerry Gordon, as he quotes US federal law, "It is unlawful for a person in the United States or subject to the jurisdiction of the United States to knowingly provide "material support or resources to a designated FTO."

http://www.aolnews.com/surge-desk/article/imam-muhammad-musri-key-facts-about-quran-burning-peacemaker/19627828

http://www.rightsidenews.com/2010083011489/us/islam-in-america/busted-florida-mosque-caught-on-video-raising-money-for-hamas-fundraiser.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3kULrLBjlM

:munchin

Richard

09-10-2010, 18:15

Small world.

Richard :munchin

Terry Jones and Rush Limbaugh: Class of 69

Central High School, Cape Girardeau, MO

http://www.capecentralhigh.com/students/koran-burn-terry-jones-rush-limbaugh/

PSM

09-10-2010, 19:16

Small world.

Richard :munchin

Terry Jones and Rush Limbaugh: Class of 69

Central High School, Cape Girardeau, MO

http://www.capecentralhigh.com/students/koran-burn-terry-jones-rush-limbaugh/

'Tain't no secret. Rush said, on his show, that he faced the South Paw pitcher in Babe Ruth League baseball. But, he doesn't remember him from school.

Pat

T-Rock

09-10-2010, 20:58

Someone needs to remind the Muslim world who started the first “Burn the Koran Day”

:D

"Burning the Koran has not always been an outrage in Muslim eyes. Let us recount the extensive Koran burning exploits of Islam's Rightly Guided Caliph Uthman (d.656)."
~Andrew G. Bostom~

Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they have copied, and ordered that all the other Qur’anic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts of whole copies, be burnt.
(-Sahih al-Bukhari vol 6, book 61, number 510)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91AM7665cbo

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2010/09/koran_burning_and_islams_right.html

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/bukhari/061.sbt.html

Today's Qur’an may not be the Qur’an that Muhammad intended his followers to have…

:munchin

Pete

09-13-2010, 12:36

Iran Ayatollahs Issue Fatwas Against Koran-Burners

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-09-13/iran-ayatollahs-issue-fatwas-against-koran-burners.html

"........“Undoubtedly, the blood of a person who burns the Koran should be shed,” Makarem-Shirazi was cited by Fars as saying. Everybody should “strongly condemn” such an act................"

The Religion of Peace Speaks

SF_BHT

09-13-2010, 14:45

Gypsy

09-13-2010, 17:08

Did no one get the memo that they did not burn the Koran? I guess the second memo got lost also saying they will never burn any.

Guess you are guilty just by saying you Are thinking about it.
You got to love the religion of peace.

Those jackasses, the Westboro Church, did. Now that's a fatwa I can agree with when it comes to those...people. :munchin

Shhh don't upset the religion of peace.

Peregrino

09-13-2010, 17:53

Those jackasses, the Westboro Church, did. Now that's a fatwa I can agree with when it comes to those...people. :munchin

Shhh don't upset the religion of peace.

I doubt the "Religion of Peace" will bother the Westboro Cult; after all, they hate America as much as the Islamists do.

ZonieDiver

09-13-2010, 17:59

'Tain't no secret. Rush said, on his show, that he faced the South Paw pitcher in Babe Ruth League baseball. But, he doesn't remember him from school.

Pat

I hear OxyContin will do that to you! :D

SF_BHT

09-13-2010, 18:12

Those jackasses, the Westboro Church, did. Now that's a fatwa I can agree with when it comes to those...people. :munchin

Shhh don't upset the religion of peace.

Ok See what happens when you live on an island you miss all the stood things that go on.
Well they deserve it if Ali baba knocks on the door and goes boom.

Richard

09-13-2010, 18:50

Wonder what they think of this one?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0C6YOJh4tGc

Always seems as if there are no fatwahs around when you need one.

Richard :munchin

Gypsy

09-13-2010, 20:18

I doubt the "Religion of Peace" will bother the Westboro Cult; after all, they hate America as much as the Islamists do.

Good point.

Well they deserve it if Ali baba knocks on the door and goes boom.

Well you know...Halloween is just around the corner. :D

SF-TX

10-15-2010, 15:16

;)

Fla. pastor wins car for canceling Quran burning
By BETH DeFALCO, Associated Press Writer Beth Defalco, Associated Press Writer 2 hrs 35 mins ago

SOUTH BRUNSWICK, N.J. — Car dealer Brad Benson made the pitch to Florida pastor Terry Jones in one of his quirky radio ads: If you don't burn a Quran, I'll give you a new car.

He was surprised, though, when a representative for Jones called to collect the 2011 Hyundai Accent, retailing for $14,200.

"They said unless I was doing false advertising, they would like to arrange to pick up the car," Benson recalled. At first he thought it was a hoax, so Benson asked Jones to send in a copy of his driver's license. He did.

Jones, of Gainesville, Fla., told The Associated Press that the free car wasn't the reason he called off the burning — and that he didn't even hear about the offer until a few weeks after Sept. 11, when he had threatened to set the Muslim holy book on fire.

He said he plans to donate the car to an organization that helps abused Muslim women.

The pastor will have to pick up the car at Brad Benson Mitsubishi Hyundai in South Brunswick — known locally for Benson's radio ads focusing more on current events than cars — so he can fill out paperwork. No date has been set for the handover.

Jones had threatened to burn the Quran over plans to build an Islamic center and mosque near where terrorists brought down the World Trade Center nine years ago. Muslims revere the book as the word of God and view its destruction as sacrilege.

His plans drew opposition across the world. President Barack Obama appealed to him on television, and Defense Secretary Robert Gates called him personally. Gen. David Petraeus, head of the U.S. mission in Afghanistan, said carrying out the plan would have endangered American troops.

Benson, a former New York Giants center, said he originally offered Jones use of a car for a year if he refused to burn a Quran ever.

"I just didn't think that was a good thing for our country right now," Benson said.

He's now giving Jones the car outright because he doesn't want to be connected to whatever the Florida pastor does with it.

"I don't want to be involved in the politics of that," Benson said.

Before he made his decision, Benson asked listeners to weigh in on whether he should honor his promise.

More than 2,600 people responded by phone and e-mail, and the vast majority, Benson said, urged him to keep his word.

One caller suggested painting sayings from various religious books — the Quran, the Talmud, the King James Bible — on the car.

"What you didn't say was what the car was going to look like when you gave it to him," the caller said.

Another caller told Benson to "be a man" and keep his promise. And some encouraged Benson to pick his own charity to get a car.

In 2003, Benson offered another newsmaker — Saddam Hussein — a new car if he fled Iraq. That commercial wasn't as successful, and Benson pulled the ad after two days, replacing it with one apologizing for any offense that was taken.

The Quran commercial was part of a regular "idiot award" segment Benson has singled out others for, including Lindsey Lohan, Mel Gibson and Roger Clemens.

"We don't have your typical car commercial," Benson said.

But they are memorable — and effective. Three years ago, he was selling 60 cars a month, he said. Today, that number is between 500 and 600 — making him one of the state's most successful dealers.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101015/ap_on_re_us/us_promise_to_preacher/print

rdret1

10-16-2010, 01:25

;)

You get what you ask for.

T-Rock

10-16-2010, 02:08

He said he plans to donate the car to an organization that helps abused Muslim women.

Teaming up with the radio station where the ad was placed, and donating the car to Rifqa Bary could be a step in shedding light on abused Muslim women…

If in his shoes, I would invite CNN, FOX, MSNBC, CBS, ABC…, Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, Imam Muhammad Musri, and President Obama…, for a press conference, and donate the 2011 Hyundai Accent to Rifqa…

:munchin

Defend

01-19-2011, 23:19

Banned in Britain: Pastor Terry Jones
By the CNN Wire Staff
January 20, 2011 -- Updated 0216 GMT (1016 HKT)

London (CNN) -- Britain has denied entry to the Florida pastor who said last year that he was "praying about" whether to burn Qurans to protest the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks.

"The government opposes extremism in all its forms which is why we have excluded Pastor Terry Jones from the UK," a Home Office spokesperson said in a statement. "Numerous comments made by Pastor Jones are evidence of his unacceptable behaviour."

Jones vowed to take legal action to change the decision. "Just as a human being, I believe it is restrictive, against my right to travel, against my right to my opinion, to express my opinion, against basic principles of freedom of religion and freedom of speech," he said in a telephone interview.

He said he had planned to go to Britain February 9 and to spend a week to 10 days there with his church group. He has been invited to speak at several rallies in England and do book signings, he said.

Jones, the pastor of Dove World Outreach Center in Gainesville, Florida, threatened last September to burn the Quran. "We have firmly made up our mind, but at the same time, we are definitely praying about it," Jones had told CNN.

But he changed his mind after his proposal drew sharp criticism from Muslims around the world and from U.S. officials. Gen. David Petraeus, the U.S. commander in Afghanistan, said the burning of Islam's holy books "could cause significant problems" for American troops overseas.

His book, "Islam Is of the Devil," is ranked at number 960,762 by Amazon.com.

(link (http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/europe/01/19/britain.terry.jones/index.html?iref=NS1))