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View Full Version : Federal T.R. U. ammo problems


KarlDESU
08-30-2010, 21:36
Gentlemen,
Has anyone experienced a problem with the Federal T.R.U. ammo?
Here at NYPD we have seen a lot of our .223 Rem ammo exhibit a lot of uncharacteristic behavior. We see "squirrel tails" and have seen the ammo basically disintegrate upon leaving the barrel. On a recent qual day, at the 7 yd line, I personally had numerous rounds frag apart before hitting the target backing. Pieces of copper jacket were sticking out of the backing without even enough force to fully penetrate. The target looked as if it had stipling on it with no real discernable entry holes from the round. We thought it might be due some kind of hang up from the gas tube port, but a real close inspection revealed no underlying cause from that. The "experts" at our range are left scratching their heads and the Federal people say they are working on it. Possible scenarios for this are substandard components for the cartridges, but I have never seen anything like this before and am a bit concerned since this is what we are issued for carry on a daily basis. Any help would be appreciated.
Feel free to PM me if you do not want to speak in the open forum.
Thanks, Karl D.

Blitzzz (RIP)
08-31-2010, 10:04
Sounds like time to change ammo. No further "testing" needed, too unreliable or maybe reliably worthless.
I've never used it. Out of curiosity has anyone done a velocity check? Could be too hot, and not stabilizing right and ripping itself apart.

The Reaper
08-31-2010, 11:03
Bullet weight and barrel twist?

TR

SIGTWO
08-31-2010, 11:43
I'm in the process of trying to verify this now. Have a call into the law enforcement rep. with "ATK" and the ammo product maneger at Federal. Have spoken with george at federal and he is trying to confirm this for me . Also called "NYPD" firearms and tactis unit to verify this. Our agency has been shooting "Speer and Federal" ammo with no problems so this is of great concern. Will post further when have confirmed same if its true or not.

SIGTWO
08-31-2010, 13:41
Spoke with a project engineer at federal who desgined the the t-223 ammo. George advised that in the past the ammo had a thinner jacket and could fragment out of a hot barrel, meaning over 200 rounds fired in a short period with high barrel heat. The round was redesigned with a heavier jacket. He also said that any round exsposed to high barrel heat was subject to fragment due stress induced by round being exspoed to high heat along with sudden ignition of same. That being said the total circunstance of the round being fired and what was going on at the time,type of weapon, what conditions barrel temps and the age of the ammo. All of this could and would factor into what the performance and the out come of how the round performed down range. With out being there and running a test with varibles and a constant and not knowing lot numbers date of manufacturing.The ammo in question is the t-223-e. Federal is looking at the rifling of the departments gun cutting the jacket after extended firing periods. Also they are testing the ammo from the range that day to try and duplicate same.

KarlDESU
08-31-2010, 19:53
The ammo we are using is the 55gr. out of 1:9 twist barrels and yes, they were exposed to some high round counts as well as 95 degree+ days. On avg, we were firing several hundred rounds per officer, per day. We do not use individually assigned weapons and we use the range weapons to do our quals. The range weapons go 5 days/week and like I said they get several hundred rounds through them per day. Thanks for all your input. Just by posting this problem here, I got word that several unanswered calls were suddenly returned today. Thanks again. I will keep all of posted on what the out come is.
Karl D.

Gene Econ
09-01-2010, 07:28
The ammo we are using is the 55gr. out of 1:9 twist barrels and yes, they were exposed to some high round counts as well as 95 degree+ days. On avg, we were firing several hundred rounds per officer, per day. We do not use individually assigned weapons and we use the range weapons to do our quals. The range weapons go 5 days/week and like I said they get several hundred rounds through them per day. Thanks for all your input. Just by posting this problem here, I got word that several unanswered calls were suddenly returned today. Thanks again. I will keep all of posted on what the out come is. Karl D.

Karl:

Despite what this fellow is saying, the jackets failed because they were too weak to hold up to the centrifugal force exerted on the jacket from the core due to spin rate. It isn't the 9 turn twist and barrel heat. The jackets were at fault.

This is just my opinion but my bets are that who ever is making the jackets for Federal used an alloy that wasn't quite right or in the drawing process did something to either make the jackets too thin (most likely) or weak as they were drawn.

Take my word for it, firing a couple hundred rounds of 5.56 over the period of a day is not the cause, the rifling twist is not the cause in this case, and your training is not the cause.

One of the neatest things I have seen in terms of jackets failing were those cases where a fellow would hot load some 5.56 to the point where you could see a little gray streak of jacket vaporizing as the bullet went down range. Just short of the bullet exploding in flight. It was pretty cool to watch. Of course I have also seen the bullets fail in flight due to hot loaded ammo and fast rifling twists. More often when guys use hollow point varmint bullets as they are known to use thin jackets. Much like this T-223 apparently.

And they are attributing it to your training? He, he, he.

Gene

Team Sergeant
09-01-2010, 10:45
Spoke with a project engineer at federal who desgined the the t-223 ammo. George advised that in the past the ammo had a thinner jacket and could fragment out of a hot barrel, meaning over 200 rounds fired in a short period with high barrel heat. The round was redesigned with a heavier jacket. He also said that any round exsposed to high barrel heat was subject to fragment due stress induced by round being exspoed to high heat along with sudden ignition of same. That being said the total circunstance of the round being fired and what was going on at the time,type of weapon, what conditions barrel temps and the age of the ammo. All of this could and would factor into what the performance and the out come of how the round performed down range. With out being there and running a test with varibles and a constant and not knowing lot numbers date of manufacturing.The ammo in question is the t-223-e. Federal is looking at the rifling of the departments gun cutting the jacket after extended firing periods. Also they are testing the ammo from the range that day to try and duplicate same.

Gene Econ
And they are attributing it to your training? He, he, he.
Ditto on what Gene said.

Very very poor excuse by Federal.... geez who would ever think that a .223 barrel might get real hot:rolleyes:.....

I've see and shot AR's that were glowing red and never had an ammo problem.


Karl, you and your men should stop using this ammo immediately, at least until Fereral pulls it's head out of its ass. Sounds like this ammo should have never hit the market.

Team Sergeant

swatsurgeon
09-01-2010, 22:28
Did the FBI ballistics lab verify this behavior in gelatin? If it didn't do it in gel, it must be the fault of the gun, shooter, or ........... But if tested well in gel than it's GTG!! Or you could get a STAT ballistics expert (a D.D.S.) consult to evaluate its performance and then be made a fool of telling you that it performs perfectly as per FBI testing protocol; it can ONLY act one way...the gel way.

ss

sorry, I couldn't resist:p

dfirsty
09-02-2010, 14:48
KarlDESU:

Did you get any answers? If not PM me with your email, I have a very good contact at ATK that should be able to get you the answers/help you need.

Derek

Gene Econ
09-02-2010, 15:24
Did the FBI ballistics lab verify this behavior in gelatin? If it didn't do it in gel, it must be the fault of the gun, shooter, or ........... But if tested well in gel than it's GTG!! Or you could get a STAT ballistics expert (a D.D.S.) consult to evaluate its performance and then be made a fool of telling you that it performs perfectly as per FBI testing protocol; it can ONLY act one way...the gel way. ss sorry, I couldn't resist:p

SS:

The bullets were blowing up in flight and fragments were hitting his target.

Gene

Buford Boone
09-03-2010, 14:28
Karl D., please check your PMs.

Iraqgunz
09-03-2010, 19:20
I totally agree with Gene Econ. This isn't an AR issue or training issue. This is a "we made a batch of shitty ammo issue".

The only time I have heard of stuff flying apart out of the barrel wa when people were using light varmint loads in 1/7" barrels.

Sounds like someone doesn't want to admit that they have produced crappy ammo or that their QA/QC failed.