View Full Version : I did not know Ebonics was a language...let alone a form of English
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/bizarre/justice-department-seeks-ebonics-experts#
Justice Department Seeks Ebonics Experts
DEA wants “Black English” linguists to decipher bugged calls
AUGUST 23--The Department of Justice is seeking to hire linguists fluent in Ebonics to help monitor, translate, and transcribe the secretly recorded conversations of subjects of narcotics investigations, according to federal records.
A maximum of nine Ebonics experts will work with the Drug Enforcement Administration’s Atlanta field division, where the linguists, after obtaining a “DEA Sensitive” security clearance, will help investigators decipher the results of “telephonic monitoring of court ordered nonconsensual intercepts, consensual listening devices, and other media”
The DEA’s need for full-time linguists specializing in Ebonics is detailed in bid documents related to the agency’s mid-May issuance of a request for proposal (RFP) covering the provision of as many as 2100 linguists for the drug agency’s various field offices. Answers to the proposal were due from contractors on July 29.
In contract documents, which are excerpted here, Ebonics is listed among 114 languages for which prospective contractors must be able to provide linguists. The 114 languages are divided between “common languages” and “exotic languages.” Ebonics is listed as a “common language” spoken solely in the United States.
Ebonics has widely been described as a nonstandard variant of English spoken largely by African Americans. John R. Rickford, a Stanford University professor of linguistics, has described it as “Black English” and noted that “Ebonics pronunciation includes features like the omission of the final consonant in words like ‘past’ (pas’ ) and ‘hand’ (han’), the pronunciation of the th in ‘bath’ as t (bat) or f (baf), and the pronunciation of the vowel in words like ‘my’ and ‘ride’ as a long ah (mah, rahd).”
Detractors reject the notion that Ebonics is a dialect, instead considering it a bastardization of the English language.
The Department of Justice RFP does not, of course, address questions of vernacular, dialect, or linguistic merit. It simply sought proposals covering the award of separate linguist contracts for seven DEA regions. The agency spends about $70 million annually on linguistic service programs, according to contract records.
In addition to the nine Ebonics experts, the DEA’s Atlanta office also requires linguists for eight other languages, including Spanish (144 linguists needed); Vietnamese (12); Korean (9); Farsi (9); and Jamaican patois (4). The Atlanta field division, one of the DEA’s busiest, is the only office seeking linguists well-versed in Ebonics. Overall, the “majority of DEA’s language requirements will be for Spanish originating in Central and South America and the Caribbean,” according to one contract document.
The Department of Justice RFP includes a detailed description of the crucial role a linguist can play in narcotics investigations. They are responsible for listening to “oral intercepts in English and foreign languages,” from which they provide verbal and typed summaries. “Subsequently, all pertinent calls identified by the supervising law enforcement officer will be transcribed verbatim in the required federal or state format,” the RFP notes.
Additionally, while “technology plays a major role in the DEA’s efforts, much of its success is increasingly dependent upon rapid and meticulous understanding of foreign languages used in conversations by speakers of languages other than English and in the translation, transcription and preparation of written documents.” (11 pages).
The DOJ Document (http://www.thesmokinggun.com/file/dea-ebonics-contract)
It's been around awhile for anyone who's been paying attention - especially as it relates to educational issues in the US.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebonics
Richard :munchin
It's been around awhile for anyone who's been paying attention - especially as it relates to educational issues in the US.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebonics
"From Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaJump to: navigation, search
For African American U.S. English that is distinct from standard U.S. English, see African American Vernacular English." Richard :munchin
Well, all I can say is, No, Sir. And my blonde hair stands up when wikipedia is used as a credible reference, Richard, Sir. As I have been taught that by QP's on this site.:confused:
My Father and Step-Mom were both Eduataors at the MS and HS levels, both having multiple Masters degrees. And when I ponder the question of weather or not ebonics is acceptable, I fall back on Their shared experiences in the classroon, and wanting their students to succeed! Proper English is a must!
Speak English, or get the FU*K out of America, is also MHO.:munchin
Holly
Speak English, or get the FU*K out of America, is also MHO.:munchin
Holly
Well, I wouldn't go that far. I've been to New England, and I get by much better in Mexico. ;)
Pat
Well, I wouldn't go that far. I've been to New England, and I get by much better in Mexico. ;)
PatWicked good.:D
My problem is the classification - Ebonics.
I have no problem with the Feds looking for someone who can understand the slang of the people talking.
Again I live in a mixed neighborhood and blacks and whites pretty much talk the same - with some variations. But its when you go downtown or out on the Murc where the language changes.
The funny ones are the white teens trying to be "all ghetto" in their talk, walk, look and music. They just can't pull it off.
Well, I wouldn't go that far. I've been to New England, and I get by much better in Mexico. ;)
Pat
Pat, I hear you, but,
Honestly, when did it become bad to say that Americans should speak ENGLISH?
Seriously, This Is America, G**Damnit!!!!! PC be damned!!!! Either Be an American, or Get the FU*K OUT, is my humble opinion!!
For goodness sake, Our soldiers are DYING in war to protect our way of life! The least we can do is honor that, and show some respect!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:mad::mad::mad:
Holly
Pat, I hear you, but,
Honestly, when did it become bad to say that Americans should speak ENGLISH?
Seriously, This Is America, G**Damnit!!!!! PC be damned!!!! Either Be an American, or Get the FU*K OUT, is my humble opinion!!
For goodness sake, Our soldiers are DYING in war to protect our way of life! The least we can do is honor that, and show some respect!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:mad::mad::mad:
HollyWho should be the arbiter of what is and is not "American"? You? Me? Or individual Americans themselves?
Who should be the arbiter of what is and is not "American"? You? Me? Or individual Americans themselves?
Sigaba,
In all sincerity, you are far "smarter" than me, obviously. My post is my own opinion, and in that vein, you may draw your own conclusions.
You know where I stand, in answer to your question.:munchin
Holly
Well, all I can say is, No, Sir. And my blonde hair stands up when wikipedia is used as a credible reference, Richard, Sir. As I have been taught that by QP's on this site.:confused:
My Father and Step-Mom were both Eduataors at the MS and HS levels, both having multiple Masters degrees. And when I ponder the question of weather or not ebonics is acceptable, I fall back on Their shared experiences in the classroon, and wanting their students to succeed! Proper English is a must!
Speak English, or get the FU*K out of America, is also MHO.:munchin
Holly
Holly,
1 - I agree that the better one can read and properly write and speak a language, the better off they are.
2 - I was trying to keep it simple.
http://linguistlist.org/topics/ebonics/
http://linguistlist.org/about.cfm
3 - I grew up in California, and you probably would have enjoyed my struggles in trying to understand the 'American English' I encountered when I first moved to Georgia and North Carolina. ;)
Gutes lesen. :D
Richard
Gutes lesen. :D Richard
Richard Sir,
Thank you Sir, for your response.
Holly
I speak Southernese so I guess I can't say anything ....well ,not and be PC anyway ....:)
I don't encounter anyone in NC that speaks like me ,but of course its not southern impo ....
Eagle5US
08-23-2010, 17:10
Who should be the arbiter of what is and is not "American"? You? Me? Or individual Americans themselves?
I have said it many times before, and I will indeed say it again...
America is no longer the melting pot, it is the salad bowl. Language allows communication across the Nation and provides a bind of commonality and identity. The "identity" of American language is that of English. We are not made of up tribes that base our border on the big rock by the waterfall or the Hunkau Tree at the base of the mountain. We have well defined borders and functionality within those borders should dictate knowledge of the COMMON LANGUAGE. That being ENGLISH.
Yes, I know that a Hero Sandwich is also called a Slider, a Plank, and a Dagwood depending on where you live. That is not the aim of my point.
While working in Laos our interpreters had terrible times trying to work...why because of the blasted "Hunkau tree". Tribes did not WANT other tribes knowing what they were saying, did not WANT to loose their identity by having commonality of language. They had little need to work together as they were self sufficient. Their language was one of the main things that set them apart within the same region.
We are already losing much of our identity as Americans. The language debate has gone back and forth for years. Places like California, New Mexico, and Florida have had bills put forward (that failed) to make SPANISH the official language of the State due to their increasing populations of Spanish only literate "occupants". What does that tell us about the state of our own expectations for learning English? There are few places now where state and local government forms are not automatically available in English AND Spanish.
You want to maintain your own culture and pride in your "heritage", I am all for it. But there should be a RESPONSIBILITY to learn English along with it. As an example, here in El Paso when I call my utilities company...now IN SPANISH, it says "To continue in Spanish, press 1, for English Press 2" - THEN in English, it says, to "continue in English, press 2".
I shouldn't have to press anything...
Eagle
mojaveman
08-23-2010, 17:18
The funny ones are the white teens trying to be "all ghetto" in their talk, walk, look and music. They just can't pull it off.[/QUOTE]
Correct Pete,
As much as I can't stand profanity laced anti-establishment gangsta rap, it's even worse when a white guy tries to pull it off.
Ebonics? How about one standard of English?
Who should be the arbiter of what is and is not "American"? You? Me? Or individual Americans themselves?
The US does have a National language which is English. What would be the outcome if we catered to individual ethnic groups and their languages? I believe it would be more than just more language options on the ATM.
Maybe I am wrong, but I believe things are more harmonious when we speak in the same tongue.
I speak Southernese so I guess I can't say anything ....well ,not and be PC anyway ....:)
I don't encounter anyone in NC that speaks like me ,but of course its not southern impo ....
As big as the USA is,,
English to a kid in Bronx, NY
Is not English to a kid in New Braunfels, TX
Is not English to a kid in West La, Ca
Is not English to a kid from Bemidji, Mn
Is not English to a kid in Iberia, La
and on top of that none of these kids would get a good job at a place that expects Yale English or Vassar English.
They are not languages,,
They are accents..
Green Light
08-23-2010, 17:27
I could have saved a great deal ofbtime in school with Ebonics. Verb conjugations are streamlined:
Verb: To Be (Present Tense)
I be
You be
He be
She be
It be
We be
They be
There! Now on to the pluperfect progressive. . . . :D
Whata load. Even in the South where English can be rather interesting, we were taught to speak and write it correctly.
As big as the USA is,,
English to a kid in Bronx, NY
Is not English to a kid in New Braunfels, TX
Is not English to a kid in West La, Ca
Is not English to a kid from Bemidji, Mn
Is not English to a kid in Iberia, La
and on top of that none of these kids would get a good job at a place that expects Yale English or Vassar English.
They are not languages,,
They are accents..
I understand ,and agree
I have also got comments tho ,that I speak a language all my own ..:munchin
But I am trackin ;)
I shouldn't have to press anything...
Eagle
Eagle,
I couldn't agree more with your post, especially the last line.
IMO, the downfall is the "Press 1 for English...Press 2 for Spanish", and the plethora of Spanish speaking Television stations (Tele-Mundo, Telefutura, ect.) that you see so rampant now-a-days. It gives absolutely NO emphasis for anyone coming in from "South of the Border" to even ATTEMPT to learn English. They know, that they don't have to learn English. Spanish will be PROVIDED for them.
I'm pretty sure, if anyone born and raised in the U.S. and only KNOWS English, and moves to another country where English is NOT the spoken language, they wouldn't see the same "availability" to "Press any number for English". No, they would learn the language of that country as best they could.
I think Theodore "Teddy" Roosevelt said it best, oh so many years ago.....
Every immigrant who comes here should be required within five years to learn English or leave the country.
Well, I wouldn't go that far. I've been to New England, and I get by much better in Mexico. ;)As an Appalachian-raised Southern boy, I'd have to say learning Pilgrim was much harder than learning German...them folks talk funny...my ex wife's mom was from New York...I needed subtitles for her, too...and I will never understand Valley-speak, like, you know? I have some capacity for Cajun, a touch for Creole, but find deep Southern to be problematic from time to time...Ebonics is just another American dialect...and ya'll that say you ain't got no accent is lyin'...;)
and ya'll that say you ain't got no accent is lyin'...;)
:D Ain't that the truth ..Ask anyone who has talk to me lol ...I gots me ah accent
I have said it many times before, and I will indeed say it again...
America is no longer the melting pot, it is the salad bowl. Eagle
Eagle Sir,
Agree 110%, Sir!
If I remember correctly, a very wise SF COL. once said that, "America is a melting pot, not a friggin' stew!" :munchin
Miss that wisdom on threads like this, indeed.:(
Holly
The Reaper
08-23-2010, 18:02
Would it not be logical that anyone hired for a translation position also be able to speak, read, and understand English at a 3/3 level of proficiency?
If not, it sort of limits their ability to assist, doesn't it?
Will they test for that as well?
TR
Ebonics? Let there be one standard of English!Hmm...there are several variants of German...Bayerische, Schwabische, Tirolean, Hoch Deutsch, all spoken within the borders of the Federal Republic...there are several variations of French, even in France, from the Parisian dialect to the various provencial tongues...standard American English should be taught in schools, but criminals probably wouldn't feel obliged to respect the language any more than the respect the laws...using folks who are conversant in Ebonics for the purpose of law enforcement makes sense to me...I can tell you as a detachment commander in Bavaria, the hoch Deutsch I learned in school was limiting...and the additional gasthaus Bayerische I learned wasn't all that helpful in Schwabia...to me, having agents who speak the language of their targets is a good idea...
We all speak a regional form of colloquial English, with varying inflection of course. However, “didyaeatyet” as a one word monosyllable question, asked through a all, but closed mouth, can be replied to throughout the country, if it is understood, with a simple yes or no.
TR, no they will not. Have you been to a DMV lately? In NJ, I am constantly amazed, but lets not address the government solution for chronic unemployment.
BUT, You know you losing when you have to show/teach an employee of a major university, how to process the VA forms she is responsible for, being that her job title is: Student Coordinator for Veterans Affairs. Now I'm all pissed off, again!!!!!!!!
BUT, You know you losing when you have to show/teach an employee of a major university, how to process the VA forms she is responsible for, being that her job title is: Student Coordinator for Veterans Affairs. Now I'm all pissed off, again!!!!!!!!
Chef,
Am confused sir, as to your above post?:confused:
Holly
P.S. lk Sir, right on!
Perhaps Ebonics and all the rest are a symptom of a deeper problem. I note the following: LINK (http://www.idra.org/Research/IDRA_Research/Literacy_in_San_Antonio/)
San Antonio has a 15.1 % illiteracy rate, Texas is at 12.3%, and the U.S. is at 9.4%. For some reason, important skills are - apparently - not being taught. I regard English as one of those skills.
Quite frankly, I regard English as a beautiful language, capable of communicating deep thoughts with power and elegance. Unfortunately, it is seldom well-used. The subtle nuances of meaning within words are largely ignored in the popular media.
Some time, find a book published in the period before 1950. Compare the words, the grammar, the sentence structure with what we use in our common discourse. I fear that those authors of the past would regard most of what we write and say in much the same way we view Ebonics.
And yet, that isn't the real tragedy. We continue to degrade our communication. We celebrate this trend as inclusiveness or improved accessibility, but in truth we seldom aspire to improve what we write and speak, but rather seek to lower standards still more.
At this point, someone will surely find several errors in my own writing attempts. So I will quickly revert to the usual...
C'ya. MOO, YMMV. :D
didja eat yet, naw, didju? You'ant to. Aight." :D
Oh, so there is a long version of it..... around here its just - jeet? ... jew?
I can't wait to see the GS13 scam application and federal testing for the "ebonics translator" position. I can just picture the 25 year old suburban white girl grad student who greets applicants with a hard "sup g" on test morning.
Is it just me or is this whole country turning into a fucking Bravo reality show?
Nostalgia just ain't what it used to be.
Richard
As with most things bad for American education in the last 40 years, the ebonics outrage started here in California. Oakland to be specific: On December 18, 1996, the Oakland, California school board passed a controversial resolution recognizing the legitimacy of "Ebonics" — i.e. what mainstream linguists more often term African American Vernacular English — as a language. The resolution set off a maelstrom of media criticism and ignited a hotly discussed national debate.
For students whose primary dialect was "Ebonics," the Oakland resolution mandated some instruction in that dialect, both for "maintaining the legitimacy and richness of such language... and to facilitate their acquisition and mastery of English language skills." This also included the proposed increase of salaries of those proficient in both "Ebonics" and Standard English to the level of those teaching LEP (limited English proficiency) students and the use of public funding to help teachers learn AAVE themselves.[1]
Link: Ebonics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oakland_Ebonics_controversy)
It was probably just a way for the teachers' union to direct higher pay to some of their black teachers. This may be a similar situation.
Pat
Is it just me or is this whole country turning into a fucking Bravo reality show?
Casey Sir,
Am so glad someone FINALLY has the ba**** a-hem, to say it! Am wondering the same thing, and am sure I am not alone...:munchin
Hmmmmm,
Holly
Eagle5US
08-23-2010, 19:41
In this CLASSIC clip, I present Barbara Billingsley herself....talking all that "jive" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymMBEwtRZOg&feature=search)
What would the Beaver think:D
Eagle
mojaveman
08-23-2010, 19:49
Hmm...there are several variants of German...Bayerische, Schwabische, Tirolean, Hoch Deutsch, all spoken within the borders of the Federal Republic...there are several variations of French, even in France, from the Parisian dialect to the various provencial tongues...standard American English should be taught in schools, but criminals probably wouldn't feel obliged to respect the language any more than the respect the laws...using folks who are conversant in Ebonics for the purpose of law enforcement makes sense to me...I can tell you as a detachment commander in Bavaria, the hoch Deutsch I learned in school was limiting...and the additional gasthaus Bayerische I learned wasn't all that helpful in Schwabia...to me, having agents who speak the language of their targets is a good idea...
Good post
Ich spreche Deutsch auch. Nicht vollkommen aber sehr gut.
I found the Northern Germans the easiest to understand. I had the most dificulty understanding the Swabians because they tend to hack the ends off of words. The dialect in the Allgau region of Germany is also difficult. The Berliners tend to speak very fast so one has to listen carefully.
I agree that using interpreters or linguists to aid in the enforcement of the law is a good idea.
Dragbag036
08-23-2010, 19:51
I have read and have to chime in....I am an AMERICAN (with slightly cocoa skin... who gives a rats ass), anyway, this reminds me of Germany in 1996 with the implementation of Rechtschreibreform. You can google-fu it if you want more information. But in a nutshell, the younger generation was getting so bad in school and verbalization that they changed things with the language to suit the uneducated. Now in 2010 even in my sister-in-laws bank in Weiden i.d.OPf, it is the norm to mix English and German words and to speak in a Baviarian/American vocabulary.
Whether an inner city kid, or a so called "country gangster", this is idiotic. Along with our demographic problem, we are allowing our youth to dumb down America. When will we stop letting the few make decisions for the masses?
Eagle5US
08-23-2010, 19:52
. When will we stop letting the few make decisions for the masses?
I am hoping that this November will be a good time to start...seriously...
Eagle
I have read and have to chime in....I am an AMERICAN (with slightly cocoa skin... who gives a rats ass), anyway, this reminds me of Germany in 1996 with the implementation of Rechtschreibreform. You can google-fu it if you want more information. But in a nutshell, the younger generation was getting so bad in school and verbalization that they changed things with the language to suit the uneducated. Now in 2010 even in my sister-in-laws bank in Weiden i.d.OPf, it is the norm to mix English and German words and to speak in a Baviarian/American vocabulary.
Whether an inner city kid, or a so called "country gangster", this is idiotic. Along with our demographic problem, we are allowing our youth to dumb down America. When will we stop letting the few make decisions for the masses?
If we don't become careful, Fiction WILL become Fact/Reality.
From the movie Blade Runner.....
Cityspeak is the "street" language of the denizens in the Blade Runner world.
In the movie, the first person to say something Cityspeak was Gaff, when he first accosts Rick Deckard at the noodle bar. In the voice-over for this scene, Deckard says:
That gibberish he talked was Cityspeak, gutter talk, a mishmash of Japanese, Spanish, German, what have you. I didn’t really need a translator. I knew the lingo, every good cop did. But I wasn’t going to make it easier for him.
edit BackgroundMuch of the Cityspeak used in the film was devised by Edward James Olmos, during background research for his character (Gaff).
In addition to Japanese, Spanish, and German; Olmos also used Hungarian, Chinese, and French. Other street dialog in the film uses Korean.
America is no longer the melting pot, it is the salad bowl.
American Identity: Ideas, Not Ethnicity
http://www.america.gov/st/diversity-english/2008/February/20080307154033ebyessedo0.5349237.html
Richard :munchin
Wow, when I first read the title of this, I had to check if the category was right. Then I read the first couple lines of the article and had to laugh..AT FIRST!
Not for nuttin, I ain't suhprized on bih! :D
As a former LEO, I cannot tell you how many times, as a rookie, I would think "OMG, Do I have to go back to DLI for another language!?". My first case, a double stabbing, had two Lumbees in Hoke County. The girl's mother (Mama) wanted to know what hospital her daughter was going to, the detective was kind enough to translate for me. Within 6 mos (I AM a lil hard-headed Irish gal) I was speaking just like them....or else I wasn't serving any warrants or making any arrests. As far as ebonics go, it is streetspeak, as far as I am concerned. BUT, I can certainly see why the DEA and perhaps a handful of other LE agencies would need translators.
Fo shizzle, ma nizzle! :p
Dragbag036
08-23-2010, 20:34
Wow, when I first read the title of this, I had to check if the category was right. Then I read the first couple lines of the article and had to laugh..AT FIRST!
Not for nuttin, I ain't suhprized on bih! :D
As a former LEO, I cannot tell you how many times, as a rookie, I would think "OMG, Do I have to go back to DLI for another language!?". My first case, a double stabbing, had two Lumbees in Hoke County. The girl's mother (Mama) wanted to know what hospital her daughter was going to, the detective was kind enough to translate for me. Within 6 mos (I AM a lil hard-headed Irish gal) I was speaking just like them....or else I wasn't serving any warrants or making any arrests. As far as ebonics go, it is streetspeak, as far as I am concerned. BUT, I can certainly see why the DEA and perhaps a handful of other LE agencies would need translators.
Fo shizzle, ma nizzle! :p
Wow!!! As I read your post I couldn't help but laugh and remember growing up hearing my mother say "Do not bring that verbiage in my house". Now fast forward to 2002, I'm in the ER of Bayfront in St. Petersburg. We have just gotten in a female from an MVA. With no regard for her unrestrained child she says, " I be caint breaf, my chestasis" Now even in a calm ER and concern for the patient, nurses and doctors were leaving to keep from laughing. I can't even begin to type the Ebonics correctly while putting in a chest tube.
I have said it many times before, and I will indeed say it again...
America is no longer the melting pot, it is the salad bowl.Just when was America a "melting pot"? Did all Americans have the opportunity to blend in? We are already losing much of our identity as Americans. The language debate has gone back and forth for years.
IMO, the debate has spanned centuries, not years. Historically, groups of Americans have invested a lot of effort denying other groups of Americans the opportunity to educate themselves formally. Now, that some of these groups have managed not just to survive but to thrive "on the margins," we castigate them for not embracing the thorny concept of assimilation. You want to maintain your own culture and pride in your "heritage", I am all for it. But there should be a RESPONSIBILITY to learn English along with it.Why? If a person can make it through her everday life without speaking a word of English, why should she be compelled to develop a skill set she doesn't need?As an example, here in El Paso when I call my utilities company...now IN SPANISH, it says "To continue in Spanish, press 1, for English Press 2" - THEN in English, it says, to "continue in English, press 2".
I shouldn't have to press anything...Eagle,
I couldn't agree more with your post, especially the last line.
IMO, the downfall is the "Press 1 for English...Press 2 for Spanish"[.]What happened to letting the "free market" decide how business gets done?[T]he plethora of Spanish speaking Television stations (Tele-Mundo, Telefutura, ect.) that you see so rampant now-a-days. It gives absolutely NO emphasis for anyone coming in from "South of the Border" to even ATTEMPT to learn English. They know, that they don't have to learn English. Spanish will be PROVIDED for them. Shall we add a language and acculturation requirement to go alongside the "fairness" doctrine that our friends on the left side of the aisle champion?I think Theodore "Teddy" Roosevelt said it best, oh so many years ago.....IMO, Roosevelt's comments are less savory if one situates them in an understanding of the politics of identity at that time. YMMV.Perhaps Ebonics and all the rest are a symptom of a deeper problem.Perhaps they are the symptom of a deeper solution.If we don't become careful, Fiction WILL become Fact/Reality.Has anyone been to downtown Los Angeles recently and taken a look at the reality? The future of America has arrived. It is called Little Tokyo.
My $0.02.
________________________________________
* My apologies to Rick Rubin, if not Shawn Carter.
Eagle5US
08-23-2010, 21:00
No pun intended...but I am speechless at your post. Is this how you HONESTLY think? REALLY???
I actually typed out a long response...but I think the point will be poorly received.
I truely cannot understand your line of reasoning. But, that's OK.
Eagle
No pun intended...but I am speechless at your post. Is this how you HONESTLY think? REALLY???I don't post drunk, but that one had me thinking...
Has anyone been to downtown Los Angeles recently and taken a look at the reality? The future of America has arrived. It is called Little Tokyo.
The reality of 50 or fewer ethnocentric states?
Welcome to the Balkans.
No pun intended...but I am speechless at your post. Is this how you HONESTLY think? REALLY???The answer to your question is "yes."
I think one of the fundamental differences between our viewpoints is that whereas you see America getting worse, I see things getting slightly better for an ever more diverse population.
Make no mistake, I strongly believe that America would be better if some of the core values exhibited on this BB were taken more seriously. However, people are free to live their lives as they see best as long as they obey the law.
If I don't like it (and I often don't) it is my problem, not theirs.
The reality of 50 or fewer ethnocentric states?
Welcome to the Balkans.Have you been to Little Tokyo recently? I don't think "ethnocentric" applies to that area of L.A.
[QUOTE=Sigaba;345046]What happened to letting the "free market" decide how business gets done?
The free market? Surely you jest. The regulatory overhead, along with issues of civil liability and overt coercion have been and remain a distortion for well-nigh half-a-century. We are at the point where I doubt we would recognize a free market if it bit us on the nose while singing Yankee Doodle.
While it can, perhaps, be argued that the current arrangement represents some sort of societal consensus, that does not transform it into a free market.
I think one of the fundamental differences between our viewpoints is that whereas you see America getting worse, I see things getting slightly better for an ever more diverse population.
Interesting perspective. Our views are remarkably divergent.
Have you been to Little Tokyo recently? I don't think "ethnocentric" applies to that area of L.A.
Unfortunately no, I have never been West of the Rockies.
Has anyone been to downtown Los Angeles recently and taken a look at the reality? The future of America has arrived. It is called Little Tokyo.
My $0.02.
________________________________________
* My apologies to Rick Rubin, if not Shawn Carter.
I have. I love getting jury duty downtown for that very reason. Two hour + lunch breaks are a treat for the wide variety of cuisine available. But, metropolitan city centers are tourist magnets like Disneyland, not mainstream America...yet.
My problem is suburban communities like La Puente, CA, east of downtown L.A. It's hard to find an English sign at any business there. (And yes, they do have English in tiny print, for those who are poised to disagree.;) )
Pat
Two hour + lunch breaks are a treat for the wide variety of cuisine available.That might leave you almost enough time to order and to get served at Mitsuru Sushi and Grill. (Yes, I'm bitter.)
I do wonder what old timers / traditionalists think about the deliberate efforts to make Little Tokyo a 'gateway'. Then again, the veterans of the 442nd seemed to enjoy the many different types of Americans who were paying them respect.
That might leave you almost enough time to order and to get served at Mitsuru Sushi and Grill. (Yes, I'm bitter.)
I do wonder what old timers / traditionalists think about the deliberate efforts to make Little Tokyo a 'gateway'. Then again, the veterans of the 442nd seemed to enjoy the many different types of Americans who were paying them respect.
Sig, you wound me sir! I wouldn't stand in line to pay for raw fish with Trump’s wallet. ;) I prefer Olvera Street and Chinatown.
As to the rest...well...
Pat
I grew up on the 'left coast' in NorCal which has a history going back more than a Century of shared languages and signage commonly heard and seen in Spanish, Japanese, and Chinese. If one were to go back there around 160 years ago or so, I would imagine some of the same nativist views being heard here were being expressed by the citizens of the area which was then a province of Mexico. Today whenever I return to the area to visit, I am confronted with the addition of Sanskrit, Vietnamese, and Laotian. Here in Dallas, Korean and Vietnamese have also noticably appeared in several ethnically dominated neighborhoods of the city.
I welcome the continued march of change and have little fear that we are losing either our perceived culture or our primary language as both are continuing to progress and - inevitably - change with that progression to keep up with our society's communication requirements, just as they always have in spite of the ever present hue and cry to the contrary. Meanwhile, the other languages are doing the same in an effort to either emulate or to keep up with our rapidly advancing version of modern American English - which is a very difficult language to master and remains in a constant state of flux.
Personally, I find it all rather amusing to follow the clamoring to stem the natural flow of linguistic progress and for a return to what seems to amount to some sort of Rockwellian depicted vision of a 'good old days' America - a view of a predominantly white, Calvinist, small town New England culture (where it was assumed everyone was speaking English) as seen on old Saturday Evening Post magazine covers. Would that it were so...:confused:...but I seriously doubt if there are many here who would actually find it as welcoming and as comfortable a place to live as Rockwell's paintings lead one to imagine it might be. ;)
However, this is my opinion only and yours may vary - but so it goes...
Richard's $.02 :munchin
Wow, when I first read the title of this, I had to check if the category was right. Then I read the first couple lines of the article and had to laugh..AT FIRST!
Not for nuttin, I ain't suhprized on bih! :D
As a former LEO, I cannot tell you how many times, as a rookie, I would think "OMG, Do I have to go back to DLI for another language!?". My first case, a double stabbing, had two Lumbees in Hoke County. The girl's mother (Mama) wanted to know what hospital her daughter was going to, the detective was kind enough to translate for me. Within 6 mos (I AM a lil hard-headed Irish gal) I was speaking just like them....or else I wasn't serving any warrants or making any arrests. As far as ebonics go, it is streetspeak, as far as I am concerned. BUT, I can certainly see why the DEA and perhaps a handful of other LE agencies would need translators.
Fo shizzle, ma nizzle! :p
I'll agree that any good LE who works any inner city for a length of time is immersed into not only a different culture, but a totally different language. Not being able to understand/read the cultural ticks or that language may be detrimental to your immediate health. But sometimes its downright hysterical.
Case in point: Summer night - respond to an agg assault in a house to find compl with massive head wounds - defendant in custody and third family member (witness) saying "he b crak'n his dome wit a smootie"
Translation: the victim was struck multiple times in and about the head area by the defendant with a clothes iron ( you know a smootie... that thang u smoot out ur clothes wit)
We know the eye witness had a perfect view of the assault as he "peeped it tru the scream dor" - not screen door mind you - but the dor that you can scream thru !
I was going to post a link but couldn't find it.
It was "Who shot Boo?" done by Boortz and his producer Royal Marshall.
It's a 911 tape where they are trying to find a shooter and Royal does the translation.
It's a Hoot.
Pete,
Here it is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2SK6_Di_3O0 :D:D:D
Case in point: Summer night - respond to an agg assault in a house to find compl with massive head wounds - defendant in custody and third family member (witness) saying "he b crak'n his dome wit a smootie"
Sorry but your pronunciation is wrong here...I am fluent in Ebonics and currently hold a 5-5 rating. Here is a proper New Ebonics translation:
"E haid b crakn e dome wita smooti." There. I fixed that for you! LOL! ;)
I was going to post a link but couldn't find it.
It was "Who shot Boo?" done by Boortz and his producer Royal Marshall.
It's a 911 tape where they are trying to find a shooter and Royal does the translation.
It's a Hoot.
That was "Boo Got Shot". It's a classic! here it is:
www.ebaumsworld.com/audio/play/971
MasterOfMyFate
08-24-2010, 08:18
I think they are looking for personnel who can manage to do something along the lines of THIS:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6H0i1RAdHk
Eagle5US
08-24-2010, 08:59
RIchard -
No one here is advocating a suppression of diversity. However, there are few things that bring a society together like language. There has to be some defining characteristic to a society. Not everyone in America is White, Black, Asian, Latino, etc. Not everyone eats a singular food (Cheeseburgers for example), not everyone drives the same brand of car or wears the same style of shoe. The distinctive thing about America is no longer the views that are shared regarding the identity of being "American". Everyone wants to be Latin American, African American, Irish American, Asian American, (insert your country or religion here) - American. However, in each of those "subsets of diversity", there is the word "American". What brings that together is functional use of a single language.
If traveling in Germany and an Asian family was speaking in their Asian Language, would the Germans then assume that they were American? Probably not. However, if they were speaking in English, then probably so.
I don't think you truly understand the DEPTH that this problem creates in an "ever more tolerant" society...even in the US Military. I have US soldiers that come to the ED who NEED INTERPRETERS (predominantly Spanish and Korean) in order to speak to my staff because they cannot speak English. Leadership failure, laziness, not yet attended "ESL" (English as a second language) training, whatever the reason....they cannot speak ENGLISH. But they didn't need to, because their language needs were catered to when they joined. Let's hope their fire team leader, radio operators, sqd leaders all speak their language when it comes time for them to do something complex or important on the objective.
Everyone has the right and opportunity to come here and become "Americans". Everyone has the right to enjoy what freedoms are still available. But being "American" means more than just being here.
I realize your position. I do not agree with it, but I do appreciate it.
Eagle
ZonieDiver
08-24-2010, 09:26
I think they are looking for personnel who can manage to do something along the lines of THIS:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6H0i1RAdHk
That was great! It took me back to my days teaching at Job Corps, and the lunchtime 'freestylin' that took place outside the 'canteen' - though they never ended as this one.
I was constantly amazed at the ability of most of my students to switch from 'street' to 'academic' at the drop of a hat (brand new, tags still attached, cocked to the side a bit)! I did have to remind some that 'rapper' might not be a good 'additional skills or training' on your resume when applying for most jobs, nor having an email address such as: pimpdaddy69.
Just when was America a "melting pot"? Did all Americans have the opportunity to blend in?
Sigaba,
Respectfully, the entitlement mind-set has always been a slippery subject.
After reading your thoughts, and weighing them with what I have been taught by those in the past, (who are far smarter than me,) my answer is yes!
A soceity is made up of people who start in different economic and psychologic tiers.
How they succeed or fail to succeed is up to them as individuals, IMHO. Peroid.
How is speaking English as an, "American," not a benefit to those seeking to better their personal situation? My grandfathers father did it, when he came here from France, as did my grandmothers mother, from Germany.
People need to get over themselves, and realize that there ARE basic core values of just being, American. The hyphenated shit just drives me crazy.:rolleyes:
JHMO,
Holly
I welcome the continued march of change and have little fear that we are losing either our perceived culture or our primary language as both are continuing to progress and - inevitably - change with that progression to keep up with our society's communication requirements, just as they always have in spite of the ever present hue and cry to the contrary.
Thought provoking in the best kind of way.
I think two issues exist. First, our collective culture and the norms of our society define part of the environment in which we exist. We might ask whether this environment contributes to progress, or detracts. The era of the 1950's, whatever its good and bad points might have been, seems to have produced growth, both economic and otherwise. As we change the cultural environment, we may be laying the groundwork toward greater future success, or ruining a good arrangement. Unfortunately, a dearth of information makes it impossible to say for sure. So the change you welcome may be a very good thing. Or it may be problematic. We won't know for sure for decades, but we can have great fun arguing in the meantime. ;)
The second issue is how people in the cultural environment will react if other variables change. IMO, it appears that many believe in abundance. In essence, abundance means that we have and will always have plenty of everything we want and need. That abundance, along with the broad range of opportunity implied by abundance, will, I think, mitigate any tendency toward conflict. However, my view is that scarcity can and will assert itself from time to time; and, when it does, cultural differences will exacerbate conflict. This is quite a big logical leap, so of course others may have different conclusions.
In essence, we are conducting a vast experiment and making changes in something that has worked pretty well. We're also assuming that the abundance that supports our current social arrangements will continue. I think this will all end badly, though it could easily take 50 years to fully develop.
:munchin
Utah Bob
08-24-2010, 11:48
Lets not forget Gullah. :D
Sigaba,
Respectfully, the entitlement mind-set has always been a slippery subject.
After reading your thoughts, and weighing them with what I have been taught by those in the past, (who are far smarter than me,) my answer is yes!
A soceity is made up of people who start in different economic and psychologic tiers.
How they succeed or fail to succeed is up to them as individuals, IMHO. Peroid.
How is speaking English as an, "American," not a benefit to those seeking to better their personal situation? My grandfathers father did it, when he came here from France, as did my grandmothers mother, from Germany.
People need to get over themselves, and realize that there ARE basic core values of just being, American. The hyphenated shit just drives me crazy.:rolleyes:
JHMO,
HollyI am having a hard time following the logic of your post.
Eagle5US
08-24-2010, 12:08
I am having a hard time following the logic of your post.
Now you know how I feel regarding yours :munchin
Eagle:D
Now you know how I feel regarding yours :munchin
Eagle:DPart of the logic of my post is situated in the post-consensus historiography of the American experience that emerged in the mid 1950s.
In a nutshell, I agree with those historians who argue that there never has been broad agreement over the United States's basic values, traditions, and institutions but rather continuing conflict / collisions among different groups with differing visions of America.
MOO, these differences are the foundation of America's power, not its weakness.
Eagle5US
08-24-2010, 12:29
In a nutshell, I agree with those historians who argue that there never has been broad agreement over the United States's basic values, traditions, and institutions but rather continuing conflict / collisions among different groups with differing visions of America.
MOO, these differences are the foundation of America's power, not its weakness.
I would argue that PREVIOUSLY this may indeed have been the case as ideas were confluent and added a synergy to the building of the Nation. However, in IMHO this synergy towards PROGRESS has now been BRUTALLY SACRIFICED in the name of political correctness -
If groups wish to segregate themselves by language, there are plenty of places for them to go where they can exclusively enjoy their language to their hearts content and not have to worry about the utilization of OUR ENGLISH language.
Eagle
In a nutshell, I agree with those historians who argue that there never has been broad agreement over the United States's basic values, traditions, and institutions but rather continuing conflict / collisions among different groups with differing visions of America.
Sigaba,
Oh Hell Yes there was, and is! Look up the United States Army, for one! Agreement in how, what, why and where. Those are THE basic values, IMVHO.
These men & women fought and DIED to protect those values, and to say that there were none, is a big fat slap in the face to ALL who have sacrificed to Serve America, IMHO!:munchin
Holly
I am always amazed at the topics that get the most posts on this forum.....you never can predict what will get people spun up....;)
1stindoor
08-24-2010, 13:19
I'm always amazed at the level of thought and research done by both sides of any given discussion.
That's what makes this site so unique.
greenberetTFS
08-24-2010, 16:27
I am always amazed at the topics that get the most posts on this forum.....you never can predict what will get people spun up....;)
I concur..................;)
Big Teddy :munchin
I remember back in the mid90s when there was talk in the CA school system of allowing ebonics and translation thereof. I thought "how sad that they are going to allow people to speak this way in an educational forum. How do they think they are helping anyone?" For that matter, for anyone to call it the black language is demeaning to black people. I have friends that are black and they don't use ebonics, as a matter of fact, they abhor it and mock those that do. IMO, anyone who uses it shows an incredible amount of ignorance, it shows they lack education even on the simplest level and thus, not worthy of my employment if I were a business owner (they would reflect my business).
However, as some of us have pointed out, it exists in the innercity criminal element and they know that the majority of folks cannot understand it so they use it to their benefit. In their world, it is essential, in the REAL world it is worthless.
I am always amazed at the topics that get the most posts on this forum.....you never can predict what will get people spun up....;)
I'm always amazed at the level of thought and research done by both sides of any given discussion.
That's what makes this site so unique.
True on both counts. It is the only website I visit that no matter what the topic, you get at least two perspectives and often disagreement which remains civil.
I always come away learning something of use ;)
If traveling in Germany and an Asian family was speaking in their Asian Language, would the Germans then assume that they were American? Probably not. However, if they were speaking in English, then probably so.
Sir,
I respectfully disagree, IMHO even most Western Europeans are relatively more provincial or less accepting of ethnic assimilation as Americans. I visited Paris and Vienna after school with two buddies from college Rick and Amit. Rick is ethnically Chinese (family came over to California in 1800's), and Amit is second generation from Ohio ( parents came to US in the 1960's from India.) Both obviously speak perfect American english. We would try to ask the locals for good eating spots. On numerous occasions the responses were as follows. If I asked, they pointed out Mcdonalds since obviously thats what an American in Paris eats, If Rick asked Chinese places, and kebabs for Amit. Now it's possible we ran into nothing but the Euro version of ignorant hicks, or they saw three young guys and correctly assumed we were on a budget. However, it seemed fairly obvious they didn't see Rick and Amit as "real Americans", it got funnier as we went further east. In Prague Amit was asked if he planned to move back to India, his response of " I'm from Cleveland buddy" was met with blank stares, though solid kebab recomendations...
Call me crazy but how about demanding that teachers teach proper pronunciation in school, in English class?
You know...just like they did when I was (and most of you were) in school.
:rolleyes:
Eagle5US
08-24-2010, 18:01
Sir,
I respectfully disagree, IMHO even most Western Europeans are relatively more provincial or less accepting of ethnic assimilation as Americans. I visited Paris and Vienna after school with two buddies from college Rick and Amit. Rick is ethnically Chinese (family came over to California in 1800's), and Amit is second generation from Ohio ( parents came to US in the 1960's from India.) Both obviously speak perfect American english. We would try to ask the locals for good eating spots. On numerous occasions the responses were as follows. If I asked, they pointed out Mcdonalds since obviously thats what an American in Paris eats, If Rick asked Chinese places, and kebabs for Amit. Now it's possible we ran into nothing but the Euro version of ignorant hicks, or they saw three young guys and correctly assumed we were on a budget. However, it seemed fairly obvious they didn't see Rick and Amit as "real Americans", it got funnier as we went further east. In Prague Amit was asked if he planned to move back to India, his response of " I'm from Cleveland buddy" was met with blank stares, though solid kebab recomendations...
I appreciate what you are saying in that the Europeans were pointing out eating places based on the ethnicity of the person's in your group...that does not play into what you quoted above.
My point was that if you have a group of travelers who are speaking in a language other than English, it would be more natural for persons who see the group to think that they were natives of whatever country of the origin of their language. This thought vs being Americans and speaking Hangul, Thai, Spanish, Tagalo, Farsi etc...i.e.: The folks you ran across would have had higher probable cause to think that Rick was from China if he had asked where to eat in Cantonese, vs an American who may prefer stereotypical Chinese food while traveling. Similarly, since English is widely spoken throughout India (at least the places where I have been in that Region - and whenever I needed tech support when I owned a PC) and many travelers come from India, Burma and the like; it would not have been rude for Amit to have been questioned if he was going to move back to India or even make a sabbatical there - English speaking or not. Again, Europeans could care less regarding stereotypes and being PC. Hence "we" on this side of the pond generally think them to be "rude".
I think it rather thoughtful that the folks you ran into attempted to refer you and your friends to foods where they thought each of you would be most comfortable.
I hope that this clears up my point just a bit.
Eagle
Language is an interesting variable, but in a free democracy aren't demographic cultural shifts almost guaranteed? Is the discomfort simply the age old story of folks as they age, holding those things they are more familiar with increasingly sacred, and discomfort with shifts going forward?
In the year 1850, we had the institution of slavery, the notion black folks should be free and equal citizens was contested. Women couldn't vote, interracial marriage was frowned upon, yet there were good Americans back then, are we wrong to judge the prevalent views of another time?
Flash forward to the year 3000, America is still a powerful free country with little change in law or the constitution yet demographics have changed. The average American is not white or Christian, American english has taken on a marked latino influence. Technology has revolutionized agricultural synthesis to the point it is no longer necessary to kill animals for protein, so most folks are vegans by our standards, and think of eating meat with the same barbarism we associate with slavery. Technology has resulted in people being able to commute cross country daily for work, and attend college from home. Our military is composed along Heinlein's vision consisting primarily of droids, drones, and men in power suits.
None of us we live to see this, but is this notion of America terrifying, and if so why?
I think it rather thoughtful that the folks you ran into attempted to refer you and your friends to foods where they thought each of you would be most comfortable. I hope that this clears up my point just a bit.
Certainly sir, agreed they were trying to be helpful, I was trying to credit American notions of assimilation more than bash Europe.
Though I am fairly certain if Rick or Amit showed up in Durham and asked for good chow tomorrow he would be sent to " The Q Shaq" if they were pleasantly disposed towards Yankees that day...:)
...........Technology has revolutionized agricultural synthesis to the point it is no longer necessary to kill animals for protein, so most folks are vegans by our standards, and think of eating meat with the same barbarism we associate with slavery..........
They will never get the smell of juices dripping on hot coals right, the texture of a well marbled steak, the smell of the hot juices as you cut into it and the texture and flavor as you chew it.
Besides - the French go Vegan? Never happen.
Language is an interesting variable, but in a free democracy aren't demographic cultural shifts almost guaranteed? Is the discomfort simply the age old story of folks as they age, holding those things they are more familiar with increasingly sacred, and discomfort with shifts going forward?
Cultural shifts? Probably guaranteed. Demographic shifts? Maybe, maybe not. Keep in mind that people are far more mobile these days.
However, the issues isn't whether there will be shifts; rather, the problem is whether those shifts are positive (however defined) or negative (likewise, however defined.)
In the year 1850, we had the institution of slavery, the notion black folks should be free and equal citizens was contested. Women couldn't vote, interracial marriage was frowned upon, yet there were good Americans back then, are we wrong to judge the prevalent views of another time?
Right or wrong, we surely will judge them. And turn a blind eye to our own behavior. Some things never change...;)
Now, take slavery as an example. These days, we don't have slaves. Nope, nope, nope, not us. Instead, we ink a contract with an offshore sweatshop that pays meager wages so we can get the same sort of cheap goods slaves produced. See, that way, we don't have any investment in the slaves, so if they get sick or die, it represents no cost to us. Even better, we don't have to see those rented slaves - they're nicely out of sight.
Harsh? Perhaps. But as we look at past practices, we might want to consider our own behavior under an equally unforgiving light.
Flash forward to the year 3000, America is still a powerful free country with little change in law or the constitution yet demographics have changed. The average American is not white or Christian, American english has taken on a marked latino influence. Technology has revolutionized agricultural synthesis to the point it is no longer necessary to kill animals for protein, so most folks are vegans by our standards, and think of eating meat with the same barbarism we associate with slavery. Technology has resulted in people being able to commute cross country daily for work, and attend college from home. Our military is composed along Heinlein's vision consisting primarily of droids, drones, and men in power suits.
None of us we live to see this, but is this notion of America terrifying, and if so why?
This particular vision may not be terrifying....try this one on for size
Flash forward to the year 3000. There are no nations as such. For that matter, there is no language as we understand it. Communication is direct from mind to mind, with thoughts transmitted directly through the all-pervasive network. Genetic modification is an ancient technology - in 3000, an injection of nanite assemblers modify proteins over a few hours. People change their eye color, facial features, and skin tone as easily as those in 2010 change their clothing.
College is an anachronism, as is learning of any kind. The network includes both extensive data-bases and artificial intellegencies to augment human consciousness. One of the great controversies is the determination of where humanity begins and ends as humans integrate themselves with machines and the network. Some suggest that humans can simply upload to the network and live forever. Virtual reality permits people to exist in a self-defined universe, one where they can define how they perceive others. Nutrition is injected. Those who like to eat experience a mental replica of eating without ever engaging in the act. Other experiences are changed to the same form. One can eat a hundred donuts. Or do whatever one might want. Children are built as needed, assembled from proteins. Death does not exist - personalities are replicated by an AI. Since all perceptions are filtered through the network, it is impossible to tell if who and what you see, smell, feel, hear, or taste is real or a replica.
There are occassional rumors that the AI entities are running everything. Such incorrect thoughts disappear from the system quickly.
----------------
That's all assuming abundance. Here's one assuming scarcity.
----------------
Flash forward to the year 3000. There are no nations as such. The exhaustion of most resources resulted in a population crash from 6.5 billion down to less than 5 million - total. It has never recovered. There is essentially no travel, no trade, and no communication. The highest technology is the bow and arrow.
Since there is very little interaction between groups, language devolves into dialects. A person of 2010 would not understand it. The people of 2010 are seen as Gods who sinned, and so were cast down from paradise. Various mythologies explain the fall in different terms for different peoples.
People eat whatever they can find - most animals that were around in 2010 are extinct, as are most fish and birds. Therefore, few people eat animals - instead, they eat grubs. Climate change has destroyed the great cereal grains, and corn and wheat no longer exist. Hunger is the constant companion of man, and the need to constantly gather subsistence precludes any advancement - ever.
--------------------------
So...the terrifying future isn't the one we design. It's the one that destroys things we cherish. What do you, the reader, cherish? Whatever it is, rest assured that it will probably fade with time. MOO, YMMV.
ACK!
Wow, between Nmap and akv, you is trippin', main!
What the heck!? How did we go from ebonics and speaking proper english to the LSD trip you both are on? Both of your visions are very frightening. And I disagree with you both...I don't think there will be a year 3000 because I do not believe there will be an earth left, let alone any humans.
Peregrino
08-24-2010, 20:59
I would respectfully contend that the rise of ebonics correlates directly with the decline of literacy in the subject populations. Written language tends to restrict linguistic "drift" by providing a rigid pattern. When subgroups cannot comprehend or no longer care about the patterns, divergence is inevitable. Some of you will argue this is a richness inherent to the spoken form and eventually the written form will "catch up"; personally, I think it's debasing and find its crudity/vulgarity offensive. I certainly wouldn't waste effort attempting to legitimize it. YMMV.
And how would one equate that philosophy to an explanation of IMing and Tweeting? :confused:
Richard :munchin
And how would one equate that philosophy to IMing and Tweeting? :confused:
Richard :munchin
Will someone who develops proficiency in such methods write a great book, one that develops deep concepts and ideas? All too often IMing and Tweeting represent debasements of language and thought, IMO.
Written language tends to restrict linguistic "drift" by providing a rigid pattern.
I totally agree!
Todays text-speak, or whatever it's called, may be the written "drift", though. Pretty soon someone will write a novel (so called) in text-speak.
"I guarantee." ;)
Pat
Todays text-speak, or whatever it's called, may be the written "drift", though. Pretty soon someone will write a novel (so called) in text-speak.
"I guarantee." ;)
Pat
You're about 5 years too late in that prediction.
TELECOMWORLDWIRE-22 November 2005-Classic novels rewritten in text speak(C)1994-2005 M2 COMMUNICATIONS LTD http://www.m2.com
A new service developed by student mobile service dot.mobile has been launched which condenses works of classic English literature into text messages.
The service, which aims to help students revise for their exams, condenses works …
http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-139000172.html
On another note...
All this time I thought my Lab had a hearing problem and a speech impediment - now I'm sure he only listens to and barks in AAVE.
I'm gonna kill my youngest son for playing that damn music of his all the time around my dog when they were growing up tgether and stunting both their language abilities.
I hope the college doesn't find out about it so they don't take back my son's diploma and the AKC doesn't find out about it so they don't rescinded my dog's papers.
I may have to teach them both ASL.
And so it goes...
Richard :munchin
Will someone who develops proficiency in such methods write a great book, one that develops deep concepts and ideas? All too often IMing and Tweeting represent debasements of language and thought, IMO.
Ever read A Clockwork Orange or a True History of the Kelly Gang? How about an ee Cummings poem? :confused:
Just sayin...
Richard :munchin
You're about 5 years too late in that prediction.
Obviously I was talking about a NYT best seller, promoted on Oprah, and made into a blockbuster 3D movie!
Richard you are so...so... Wait. I'll get back to you when I find the right text-speak for it. ;)
Pat
Ever read A Clockwork Orange or a True History of the Kelly Gang? How about an ee Cummings poem? :confused:
Just sayin...
Richard :munchin
Truth be told, no. I've never read any of them. I looked up Cummings' poetry...:eek:. I had to Google a meaning for AAVE.
Quite some time ago, Longwire suggested (as I recall) that I had led a rather protected life. He was 100% on target.
As Tommy Lee Jones said in Under Siege, "Welcome to the revolution!" :D
Richard :munchin
Ever read A Clockwork Orange
I did, after seeing the movie. It was an interesting educational exercise that Burgess knew he could exceed at. (At which Burgess knew he could succeed. [No rapped knuckles, please.] :eek:)
There is a last chapter that was not included, BTW (text-speak). ;)
Last Tick of the Orange. (http://chabrieres.pagesperso-orange.fr/texts/clockwork_orange.html)
Pat
To put it politely, elements of profound intellectual inconsistency are at play in this thread. Some decry the decline of academic standards, especially the teaching of proper English. The argument goes like this: people should speak and write the language as it is taught (or should be taught) in high school.
At the same time, some of these same individuals seem to have forgotten one of the basic lessons of medieval and early modern European history that one learns in the eleventh grade. Specifically, the role the vernacular played in the flowering of western European society and culture.
So on the one hand, some are worthy of scorn and contempt for failing to do as they were taught or knowing what they "should" know. On the other hand...
First, it's damn shame I don't qualify.:D
Second,I was constantly amazed at the ability of most of my students to switch from 'street' to 'academic' at the drop of a hat As for business, I found it very useful to be able to switch back and forth into different dialects -- not fluently, and not to an extreme -- most clients.... There are certain core abilities that make you more fluent in the job market -- one of them is knowing when to use your dialect freely and when to ratchet it up (or down) a few notches. IMO this is nothing more than good people skills and business sense.I agree. I switch dialects unintentionally from English, Spanglish, Turkish, Iraqiish, Ebonicish, Southernish, Yankeeish, Californish and will soon be using Texasish hopefully.:lifter
Stay safe.
... some of these same individuals seem to have forgotten one of the basic lessons of medieval and early modern European history that one learns in the eleventh grade. Specifically, the role the vernacular played in the flowering of western European society and culture.
Mi amigo, ;) you seem t be assuming that EVERYONE had the same 11th grade education. It didn't happen. It doesn't happen. It won't happen.
Everyone loved the movie Stand and Deliver about Jaime Escalante at Garfield High, here in L.A. What happened when he retired? They dropped the course.
Pat
What happened when he retired...they dropped the course.
They did!? Why am I always the last one to know about these things?! :p
...EVERYONE had the same 11th grade education. It didn't happen. It doesn't happen. It won't happen.
They didn't? My 11th Grade SY:
Alg2
American Lit (1 Sem) - SciFi Lit (1 Sem)
Art3
Physics
Spanish 3
World History
Athletics
And so it goes...
Richard
They did!? Why am I always the last one to know about these things?! :p
They didn't? My 11th Grade SY:
Alg2
American Lit (1 Sem) - SciFi Lit (1 Sem)
Art3
Physics
Spanish 3
World History
Athletics
And so it goes...
Richard
At Garfield! (Geez, Richard...No wonder your son lives in the back of his truck! :D;) )
Pat
This is actually word for word what he said to a gathering of students who asked about the bailout in America . Great response..
This man deserves a Nobel Prize..
[]
'They're standing on the corner and they can't speak English.
I can't even talk the way these people talk:
Why you ain't,
Where you is,
What he drive,
Where he stay,
Where he work,
Who you be...
And I blamed the kid until I heard the mother talk.
And then I heard the father talk.
Everybody knows it's important to speak English except these knuckleheads. You can't be a doctor with that
Kind of crap coming out of your mouth.
In fact you will never get any kind of job making a decent living.
People marched and were hit in the face with rocks to get an Education, and now we've got these
Knuckleheads walking around.
The lower economic people are not holding up their end in this deal.
These people are not parenting. They are buying things for kids.
$500 sneakers for what?
And they won't spend $200 for Hooked on Phonics.
I am talking about these people who cry when their son is standing there in an orange suit.
Where were you when he was 2?
Where were you when he was 12?
Where were you when he was 18 and how come you didn't know that he had a pistol?
And where is the father? Or who is his father?
People putting their clothes on backward:
Isn't that a sign of something gone wrong?
People with their hats on backward, pants down around the crack, isn't that a sign of something?
Isn't it a sign of something when she has her dress all the way up and got all type of
Needles [piercing] going through her body?
What part of Africa did this come from??
We are not Africans. Those people are not Africans; they don't know a thing about Africa .....
I say this all of the time. It would be like white people saying they are European-American. That is totally stupid.
I was born here, and so were my parents and grandparents and, very likely my great grandparents. I don't have any connection to Africa, no more than white Americans have to Germany, Scotland, England, Ireland, or the Netherlands. The same applies to 99 percent of all the black Americans as regards to Africa. So stop, already! ! !
With names like Shaniqua, Taliqua and Mohammed and all of that crap .......... And all of them are in jail.
Brown or black versus the Board of Education is no longer the white person's problem.
We have got to take the neighborhood back.
People used to be ashamed. Today a woman has eight children with eight different 'husbands' -- or men or whatever you call them now.
We have millionaire football players who cannot read.
We have million-dollar basketball players who can't write two paragraphs.
We, as black folks, have to do a better job.
Someone working at Wal-Mart with seven kids, you are hurting us.
We have to start holding each other to a higher standard.
We cannot blame the white people any longer.'
Dr. William Henry 'Bill' Cosby, Jr., Ed .D.
[]
WELL SAID, BILL
It's NOT about colour...
It's about Behaviour!!!
Sounds about right to me.....
ZonieDiver
08-25-2010, 07:44
To put it politely, elements of profound intellectual inconsistency are at play in this thread. Some decry the decline of academic standards, especially the teaching of proper English. The argument goes like this: people should speak and write the language as it is taught (or should be taught) in high school.
At the same time, some of these same individuals seem to have forgotten one of the basic lessons of medieval and early modern European history that one learns in the eleventh grade. Specifically, the role the vernacular played in the flowering of western European society and culture.
So on the one hand, some are worthy of scorn and contempt for failing to do as they were taught or knowing what they "should" know. On the other hand...
Wow! We just discussed this last night in my World History 1 class. (Well, I discussed and they looked at the clock.). I think the word 'vernacular' threw them. And... they were 11th graders - but they should have passed this class in 10th grade. (They were 'busy' back then.)
Tonight is Martin Luther and The Reformation! (In ONE night... talk about miracles!). I'm so excited that I am going to get a substitute. (She's a friend, used to teach this class, likes this unit, retired last year and needs the money... oh, that last part makes me nervous about next year.)
Too bad about the Jaime Escalante thing. What can I say... it's LA (not the oil spill place - don't you hate those USPS forced abbreviations for the states? I mean was 'Ariz' so hard to write? Is 'IL' really better than 'Ill'?). You know the city whose school district was $600,000,000 'short' this year, yet opened a $600,000,000 'Taj Mahal' school at the same time.
Well, at LEAST Dan Quayle's son didn't win his Republican primary race here in Ariz. (If you look 'namby pamby' up on the dictionary, his picture is beside it - Ben Quayle, not Dan.)
Dozer523
08-25-2010, 09:06
The argument goes like this: people should speak and write the language as it is taught (or should be taught) in high school.
At the same time, . . . (really good point)
So on the one hand (another good point)
On the other hand...
You mixed your metaphors. Everything you wrote is, therefore, invalid. Nee neer neer nee ner!
Well, at LEAST Dan Quayle's son didn't win his Republican primary race here in Ariz. (If you look 'namby pamby' up on the dictionary, his picture is beside it - Ben Quayle, not Dan.)
:confused:
Quayle wins GOP slugfest in AZ 3rd Cong. District
AZ Congressional races surprise voters
Posted: 9:53 PM
Last Updated: 1 hour and 13 minutes ago
By: Associated Press
PHOENIX - The son of former Vice President Dan Quayle has won the GOP nomination in Arizona's 3rd Congressional District.
Link (http://www.abc15.com/dpp/news/state/gop-slugfest-in-az-3rd-cong.-district)
Also, my brother-in-law is working on a $300,000,000 LAUSD school that's just a few miles from the $600,000,000 one.
Pat
olhamada
08-25-2010, 18:28
After living in "Mamfis" for 15 years, I learned my share of medical Ebonics. See if you can guess the translation:
1) I be gripin'
2) I be havin' seahorses in my liva
3) I got high blood
4) I got low blood
5) I be havin' sick as hell disease
6) Ma baby be havin' a ribacol
7) Ma cat be dischargin'
8) Ma baby be havin' a skint worm with a swole tip
9) Ma baby daddy be havin' 69 roses
10) Ma baby be havin' Smilin' Mighty Jesus
11) I be havin' fireballs in ma Eucharist
12) I be comin' on
13) I be runnin' off
14) You gonna look in mya era?
15) I don't drink no brrrr
16) I be the white sheep in ma family
17) Whe you people be stayin'?
This is actually word for word what he said to a gathering of students who asked about the bailout in America . Great response..
This man deserves a Nobel Prize..
[]
'They're standing on the corner and they can't speak English.
I can't even talk the way these people talk:
Why you ain't,
Where you is,
What he drive,
Where he stay,
Where he work,
Who you be...
And I blamed the kid until I heard the mother talk.
And then I heard the father talk.
Everybody knows it's important to speak English except these knuckleheads. You can't be a doctor with that
Kind of crap coming out of your mouth.
In fact you will never get any kind of job making a decent living.
People marched and were hit in the face with rocks to get an Education, and now we've got these
Knuckleheads walking around.
The lower economic people are not holding up their end in this deal.
These people are not parenting. They are buying things for kids.
$500 sneakers for what?
And they won't spend $200 for Hooked on Phonics.
I am talking about these people who cry when their son is standing there in an orange suit.
Where were you when he was 2?
Where were you when he was 12?
Where were you when he was 18 and how come you didn't know that he had a pistol?
And where is the father? Or who is his father?
People putting their clothes on backward:
Isn't that a sign of something gone wrong?
People with their hats on backward, pants down around the crack, isn't that a sign of something?
Isn't it a sign of something when she has her dress all the way up and got all type of
Needles [piercing] going through her body?
What part of Africa did this come from??
We are not Africans. Those people are not Africans; they don't know a thing about Africa .....
I say this all of the time. It would be like white people saying they are European-American. That is totally stupid.
I was born here, and so were my parents and grandparents and, very likely my great grandparents. I don't have any connection to Africa, no more than white Americans have to Germany, Scotland, England, Ireland, or the Netherlands. The same applies to 99 percent of all the black Americans as regards to Africa. So stop, already! ! !
With names like Shaniqua, Taliqua and Mohammed and all of that crap .......... And all of them are in jail.
Brown or black versus the Board of Education is no longer the white person's problem.
We have got to take the neighborhood back.
People used to be ashamed. Today a woman has eight children with eight different 'husbands' -- or men or whatever you call them now.
We have millionaire football players who cannot read.
We have million-dollar basketball players who can't write two paragraphs.
We, as black folks, have to do a better job.
Someone working at Wal-Mart with seven kids, you are hurting us.
We have to start holding each other to a higher standard.
We cannot blame the white people any longer.'
Dr. William Henry 'Bill' Cosby, Jr., Ed .D.
[]
WELL SAID, BILL
It's NOT about colour...
It's about Behaviour!!!
Sounds about right to me.....
Yes it is well said...now some white folks need to step up and say the same thing to all the white kids out there that like to speak that way.. Beeeeeecause it's "keepin' it real" and "bein' down wit da homies". <shrug>
This is actually word for word what he said to a gathering of students who asked about the bailout in America. Great response.
Although the content of the remarks is worthy of consideration, the remarks were actually made by Mr Cosby at an event on 17 May 2004 commemorating the 50th anniversary of the landmark Brown vs the Board of Ed of Topeka Kansas decision - some 4+ years before any 'bailouts' were provided to US businesses.
http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/cosby.asp
Just sayin'...
Richard :munchin
Look up the United States Army for one!I did. (While listening to Ice Cube, Ice-T, Too $hort, Public Enemy, Showbiz and A.G., the Grand Imperial Lord Finesse, Eric B. and Rakim, Mantronix, and Boogie Down Productions, among others.)Agreement in how, what, why and where.Your statement is historically inaccurate.
William T. Sherman's reaction to general order number 28, his responses to the Army Appropriation Act of 1869, as well as his responses to the Garfield Committee that same year were but a few examples of bitter debates within the "Old Army" over civil military relations, military jurisprudence, education, the army's mission, force structure, and tactics that resonated throughout the Gilded Age.
These debates played out in private correspondence, in testimony and statements to congress, at reunions of Civil War veterans, in meetings at the army's schools, and in articles in professional publications like The Journal of the Military Institution, and in the pages of middlebrow magazines such as the North American Review.
[T]he rise of ebonics correlates directly with the decline of literacy in the subject populations. Maybe that was the plan all along.
Source is here (http://academic.udayton.edu/race/02rights/slavelaw.htm#11.).11. Punishment for teaching slaves or free persons of color to read. -- If any slave, Negro, or free person of color, or any white person, shall teach any other slave, Negro, or free person of color, to read or write either written or printed characters, the said free person of color or slave shall be punished by fine and whipping, or fine or whipping, at the discretion of the court.
RE Posts #84 and #107:
The reality of the common masses of humanity having more than a colloquial knowledge of, general access to, and necessity to use properly written and spoken language is, historically speaking, a relatively new phenomenon.
Many people, for many reasons, struggle their entire lives with a language learning disability but lead very successful lives through perseverance and by focusing on developing areas of relative strength to lessen the impact of their weaknesses.
For example:
Thomas Edison was thrown out of school when he was twelve because he was thought to be dumb. He was noted to be terrible at mathematics, unable to focus, and had difficulty with words and speech. He was unable to read until he was twelve years old and his writing skills were poor throughout his life.
Albert Einstein did not speak until age 3. Even as an adult he found that searching for words was laborious. He found school work, especially math, difficult and was unable to express himself in written language. He was thought to be simple minded, until it was realized that he was able to achieve by visualizing rather than by the use of language.
Many artists and entertainers struggle(d) with a language deficit disorder - Henry Winkler, Steve McQueen, Cher, Whoopi Goldberg, Tom Cruise, Jay Leno, and Robert Rauschenberg are just a sampling. An additional listing would include many successful scientists, writers, business leaders, athletes, doctors, lawyers, and so on.
Brain research and norm-referenced specialized testing have shown there are developmental 'windows' for language learning that - if missed, developmentally delayed, or absent - can lead to language delays and deficits, some of them being pervasive.
IMO and based on my experiences, proper English language skills can increase the 'opportunity' to take greater advantage of what America has to offer its citizens - but does not 'guarantee' it and isn't always necessary to do so.
However - YMMV - and so it goes...;)
Richard's $.02 :munchin
1stindoor
08-26-2010, 06:56
After living in "Mamfis" for 15 years, I learned my share of medical Ebonics. See if you can guess the translation:
1) I be gripin'....Motrin?
2) I be havin' seahorses in my liva....Psoriasis?
3) I got high blood....high blood pressure?
4) I got low blood....low white cell count?
5) I be havin' sick as hell disease....sickle cell?
6) Ma baby be havin' a ribacol
7) Ma cat be dischargin'
8) Ma baby be havin' a skint worm with a swole tip
9) Ma baby daddy be havin' 69 roses
10) Ma baby be havin' Smilin' Mighty Jesus
11) I be havin' fireballs in ma Eucharist....Heartburn?
12) I be comin' on
13) I be runnin' off
14) You gonna look in mya era?....Look in my ear?
15) I don't drink no brrrr....Non beer drinker?
16) I be the white sheep in ma family....I'm the exception in my family?
17) Whe you people be stayin'?....Where do you live?
Best I could do.
Yes it is well said...now some white folks need to step up and say the same thing to all the white kids out there that like to speak that way.. Beeeeeecause it's "keepin' it real" and "bein' down wit da homies". <shrug>
I very much agree, what is it whith these "wiggers" if you will, at least thats what my kids call them. Find it so that they have to "dumb themselves" down to that level....acceptance....cool points...patronizing....????who knows.
It's absurd, either way...
Well...and then there is "HOOAH!" :p
Ever watch a bunch of young grunts sitting around a table in a bar or a restaurant and infusing "Hooah" into about every 5th word or so?
And they wonder why women (except those who are obviously inebriated or looking to become so on somebody else's dime) seem afraid to be near them and the owner keeps his dog locked away in the back room until they're gone. :D
Richard :munchin
IMO, some of the posts in this thread underscore Alan Alda's remarks about the timeliness of the revival of South Pacific.
IMO, some of the posts in this thread underscore Alan Alda's remarks about the timeliness of the revival of South Pacific.
I always enjoy the logic of the citizens of The Town of Titipu...
I think the line can be drawn at a certain point, and that point is that textbook grammatical English is going to get you further than "ain't got no " and "ax" instead of "ask."
I think that if one were to "ax" - there are a lot of people who would like to make the kind of $$ made by Jay-Z, Lil wayne, 50 cent, etc. Ever look at their lyrics? ;)
In a business situation you need to speak a certain way just as you need to dress a certain way.
And that 'way' is situationally dependent and varies greatly.
Richard :munchin
........ Took me years to cure the ex-husband of "Northern Michigan Redneck"speech.........
Yous guys goin' downtown tonight, eh?
Upper from way back.
For anyone south of Menominee that's "You-per".
That's why I had a hard time the first couple of weeks in Basic Training - non of them southern boys spoke English - and they put Salt, Pepper and Butter on their Cream of Wheat :D.
Ever look at their lyrics? One of the many ironies of this thread is that many of the observations, complaints, criticisms, and concerns articulated on this BB about the United States run parallel to viewpoints offered in the lyrics in hip hop music.
1stindoor
08-26-2010, 10:08
Took me years to cure the ex-husband of "Northern Michigan Redneck"speech.
Did you "cure" him...or did he just quit talking to you?:munchin
PedOncoDoc
08-26-2010, 10:22
Pete: Not actually a Upper, but from the northern half of the mitten where men are men and cattle are nervous.
I always heard it as "Where the men are men and the sheep are scared." :D
I spent my childhood summers working my uncles' farms in far northeastern lower peninsula Michigan (home of the famed Potato Festival) and find myself quickly falling back into the speech pattern when back there or dealing with patients from northern Michigan - the families tend to quickly relax and warm/open up when they hear the familiar speech pattern. The Yoopers and northern trolls (those who live under the bridge = lower peninsula) all have a very similar speech pattern.
Being able to read -- and at times mirror -- body language and speech patterns has always been a plus when working with people - regardless of whether I was bouncing at bars/night clubs or telling a family that their child has a life threatening disease.
MOO; YMMV.
Ever look at their lyrics? ;)
Unfortunately Yes:eek:
http://www.metrolyrics.com/50-cent-lyrics.html
A link for the curious will suffice. Richard
Actually to this day he says I was right because he does work in an office enviroment and it did help him in the long run.Sure...that's what he tells you...LOL...I suspect different...:D
1stindoor
08-26-2010, 11:13
Ouch. Now that was highly unnecessary.
SO THERE! :p
Sorry...I tried to keep it to myself...and then my inner voices took over.
1stindoor
08-26-2010, 11:49
Happens to me all the time, although most of what my inner voices say is not in keep with PS.com community standards.:rolleyes:
Mine neither:eek:
Back to the subject at hand though...
My "southern-isms" come out when the target environment is right. Unfortantely, my chauvenistic and sexist sides...come out at in all the wrong environments.
1stindoor
08-26-2010, 11:53
Unfortunately Yes:eek:
http://www.metrolyrics.com/50-cent-lyrics.html
A link for the curious will suffice. Richard
Yikes!:eek:
In Old English, for instance, which was spoken before 1066, "ask" was " acs" and pronounced -- wait for it-- "ax."
Must've been that Olde English hip hop bard, 50 pening. :rolleyes:
Old English Made Easy
giwian {wv/t2 to ask}
http://home.comcast.net/~modean52/oeme_dictionaries.htm
Richard :munchin
He found school work, especially math, difficult.
I may be wrong, but I think the notion of Einstein being bad at math is a historical misconception, that he actually excelled at math.
Actually, I failed to properly describe the problem. Young Einstein struggled with all his studies, including math, under the Prussian-style educational system that stifled his originality and creativity. One teacher even told him that he would never amount to anything. This changed when he discovered a book on geometry at age 12, which he devoured, calling it his “sacred little geometry book.”
Thank you.
Richard :munchin
Well, there may be some variance in the way Old English is taught, I don't know.
You may be confusing Olde (Beowulf) and Middle (Chaucer) styles of English here. :confused:
Richard :munchin
On a side note, I wonder, is there a British version of eubonics? I have always wondered how that would sound with the various British accents. Irish eubonics could be really interesting to hear!Broad Scots, Glaswegian and Embra (Edinborough) accents can be unintelligible to most ears...Manx English isn't all that easy to understand, either...
...eubonics...
What's that? A language spoken by the cadre during Tower Week? :confused:
Richard :munchin
MasterOfMyFate
08-27-2010, 00:21
Sir,
I respectfully disagree, IMHO even most Western Europeans are relatively more provincial or less accepting of ethnic assimilation as Americans. I visited Paris and Vienna after school with two buddies from college Rick and Amit. Rick is ethnically Chinese (family came over to California in 1800's), and Amit is second generation from Ohio ( parents came to US in the 1960's from India.) Both obviously speak perfect American english. We would try to ask the locals for good eating spots. On numerous occasions the responses were as follows. If I asked, they pointed out Mcdonalds since obviously thats what an American in Paris eats, If Rick asked Chinese places, and kebabs for Amit. Now it's possible we ran into nothing but the Euro version of ignorant hicks, or they saw three young guys and correctly assumed we were on a budget. However, it seemed fairly obvious they didn't see Rick and Amit as "real Americans", it got funnier as we went further east. In Prague Amit was asked if he planned to move back to India, his response of " I'm from Cleveland buddy" was met with blank stares, though solid kebab recomendations...
This story reminds me of a night I was at a club here in Germany with my buddies. We were at the bar, enjoying our fair share of drinks (Several bottles of wodka), when suddenly out of nowhere, up pops my Plt. SGT. -Cool, no problem, we can deal with him trying to be "down" and "hip". So, after he talks to us for a while, one of the ladies I know (My friends GF) whispers "Hey , how the heck do you know that Chinese guy? His English is better than MINE!" I responded "Chinese guy? Where?" (Plt. SGT is Korean)..... "HIM, RIGHT THERE!" "Ummmm, he's Korean, and he is my boss *for lack of a better term*" "WTF?! How is a Chinese guy in the American Army?!" "Ummmm, I told you he is Korean, BUT, he is American...." "THAT makes no sense at all.... You can't be Chinese AND American!" "His ethnicity (Maybe shouold have used another word) is Korean, but he is an American citizen."
Crazy convo, IMO..... But, the CRAZIEST thing is that she couldn't comprehend the concept, when I have seen/met people in Germany from so many places, MANY that I had never even heard of... All German citizens.:confused:
Are our versions of English similarly unintelligible to them?Yup...at the B&B I stayed at in Glasgow, the hostess remarked that I was easier to understand than the lady from New Yawk that had visited earlier...the host at the B&B I stayed at in Edinborough said he needed subtitles to understand me...when I hit a rough spot communicating in Jedburgh, I resorted to my native Appalachian drawl (or reverted, as my ex said) and was understood well...
For the most part, an American who speaks well on this side of the pond can make themselves understood in Scotland with little trouble...I suspect, however, if you had a dock worker from NY, a hillbilly from WV, a tradesman from Glasgow, and a sheep herder from the Highlands, you might develop a headache from listening to the exchange...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hc6VgjnX2Mk
I believe that "accent" is sometimes referred to as "jordie" - or "Geordie" - often heard in the north east of England.
See link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geordie
Yup...at the B&B I stayed at in Glasgow, the hostess remarked that I was easier to understand than the lady from New Yawk that had visited earlier...the host at the B&B I stayed at in Edinborough said he needed subtitles to understand me...when I hit a rough spot communicating in Jedburgh, I resorted to my native Appalachian drawl (or reverted, as my ex said) and was understood well...
For the most part, an American who speaks well on this side of the pond can make themselves understood in Scotland with little trouble...I suspect, however, if you had a dock worker from NY, a hillbilly from WV, a tradesman from Glasgow, and a sheep herder from the Highlands, you might develop a headache from listening to the exchange...
I just got a headache thinking about it, Steve! LOL
I have heard all those ...not all together but the NYer and the hillbilly on either side of me.....crazy conversation! :D
greenberetTFS
08-27-2010, 15:32
You're killin me
Well, there may be some variance in the way Old English is taught, I don't know. All I can say is that I took Old English as part of my graduate degree in English (I can hear you laughing, you know) and that was the word, definition and pronunciation I was given.
But it was a long time ago.
N550G,
Help me out here,my son has a BA in English(British)and a Masters in American literature(he initially wanted to be a writer)and he was trying to help me out in explaining that there is a difference in the two!..........:rolleyes: Without going back to ask him about "Old English"(?),I haven't heard any one talk about American literature,everyone references English as if that's our native language!!!!:eek: Am I confused about this?...........:confused:
Big Teddy :munchin
olhamada
08-27-2010, 18:52
Best I could do.
Great try 1stindoor! - An "A" for effort. Now, I'd have thought that on this board, there'd have been more brave enough to try! :D
Answers:
1) I be gripin'....Abdominal Pain
2) I be havin' seahorses in my liva....Cirrhosis
3) I got high blood....High Blood Pressure
4) I got low blood....Anemia
5) I be havin' sick as hell disease....Sickle Cell Disease
6) Ma baby be havin' a ribacol.....Real Bad Cold
7) Ma cat be dischargin'.......Vaginal Discharge
8) Ma baby be havin' a skint worm with a swole tip....Uncircumcised Penis with Retracted Foreskin and Swollen Glans
9) Ma baby daddy be havin' 69 roses.....Cystic Fibrosis
10) Ma baby be havin' Smilin' Mighty Jesus.....Spinal Meningitis
11) I be havin' fireballs in ma Eucharist....Fibroids in my Uterus
12) I be comin' on.....Menstrual Cycle
13) I be runnin' off......Diarrhea
14) You gonna look in mya era?....Look in my ear
15) I don't drink no brrrr....Non beer drinker
16) I be the white sheep in ma family....I'm the exception in my family
17) Whe you people be stayin'?....Where do you live
olhamada
08-27-2010, 21:53
Forgot one - "I got da shuga" - Diabetes.
Dozer523
08-27-2010, 23:35
PM inbound, Big Teddy. You'll be sorry. . . :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVjbf-dHjW0&feature=related
And so it goes...;)
Richard :munchin
And speaking of timing...
Guy Deutscher is an honorary research fellow at the School of Languages, Linguistics and Cultures at the University of Manchester. His new book, from which this article is adapted, is “Through the Language Glass: Why the World Looks Different in Other Languages.”
Richard :munchin
Does Your Language Shape How You Think?
Guy Deutscher, NYT, 28 Aug 2010
Part 1 of 4
Seventy years ago, in 1940, a popular science magazine published a short article that set in motion one of the trendiest intellectual fads of the 20th century. At first glance, there seemed little about the article to augur its subsequent celebrity. Neither the title, “Science and Linguistics,” nor the magazine, M.I.T.’s Technology Review, was most people’s idea of glamour. And the author, a chemical engineer who worked for an insurance company and moonlighted as an anthropology lecturer at Yale University, was an unlikely candidate for international superstardom. And yet Benjamin Lee Whorf let loose an alluring idea about language’s power over the mind, and his stirring prose seduced a whole generation into believing that our mother tongue restricts what we are able to think.
In particular, Whorf announced, Native American languages impose on their speakers a picture of reality that is totally different from ours, so their speakers would simply not be able to understand some of our most basic concepts, like the flow of time or the distinction between objects (like “stone”) and actions (like “fall”). For decades, Whorf’s theory dazzled both academics and the general public alike. In his shadow, others made a whole range of imaginative claims about the supposed power of language, from the assertion that Native American languages instill in their speakers an intuitive understanding of Einstein’s concept of time as a fourth dimension to the theory that the nature of the Jewish religion was determined by the tense system of ancient Hebrew.
Eventually, Whorf’s theory crash-landed on hard facts and solid common sense, when it transpired that there had never actually been any evidence to support his fantastic claims. The reaction was so severe that for decades, any attempts to explore the influence of the mother tongue on our thoughts were relegated to the loony fringes of disrepute. But 70 years on, it is surely time to put the trauma of Whorf behind us. And in the last few years, new research has revealed that when we learn our mother tongue, we do after all acquire certain habits of thought that shape our experience in significant and often surprising ways.
Whorf, we now know, made many mistakes. The most serious one was to assume that our mother tongue constrains our minds and prevents us from being able to think certain thoughts. The general structure of his arguments was to claim that if a language has no word for a certain concept, then its speakers would not be able to understand this concept. If a language has no future tense, for instance, its speakers would simply not be able to grasp our notion of future time. It seems barely comprehensible that this line of argument could ever have achieved such success, given that so much contrary evidence confronts you wherever you look. When you ask, in perfectly normal English, and in the present tense, “Are you coming tomorrow?” do you feel your grip on the notion of futurity slipping away? Do English speakers who have never heard the German word Schadenfreude find it difficult to understand the concept of relishing someone else’s misfortune? Or think about it this way: If the inventory of ready-made words in your language determined which concepts you were able to understand, how would you ever learn anything new?
SINCE THERE IS NO EVIDENCE that any language forbids its speakers to think anything, we must look in an entirely different direction to discover how our mother tongue really does shape our experience of the world. Some 50 years ago, the renowned linguist Roman Jakobson pointed out a crucial fact about differences between languages in a pithy maxim: “Languages differ essentially in what they must convey and not in what they may convey.” This maxim offers us the key to unlocking the real force of the mother tongue: if different languages influence our minds in different ways, this is not because of what our language allows us to think but rather because of what it habitually obliges us to think about.
Consider this example. Suppose I say to you in English that “I spent yesterday evening with a neighbor.” You may well wonder whether my companion was male or female, but I have the right to tell you politely that it’s none of your business. But if we were speaking French or German, I wouldn’t have the privilege to equivocate in this way, because I would be obliged by the grammar of language to choose between voisin or voisine; Nachbar or Nachbarin. These languages compel me to inform you about the sex of my companion whether or not I feel it is remotely your concern. This does not mean, of course, that English speakers are unable to understand the differences between evenings spent with male or female neighbors, but it does mean that they do not have to consider the sexes of neighbors, friends, teachers and a host of other persons each time they come up in a conversation, whereas speakers of some languages are obliged to do so.
On the other hand, English does oblige you to specify certain types of information that can be left to the context in other languages. If I want to tell you in English about a dinner with my neighbor, I may not have to mention the neighbor’s sex, but I do have to tell you something about the timing of the event: I have to decide whether we dined, have been dining, are dining, will be dining and so on. Chinese, on the other hand, does not oblige its speakers to specify the exact time of the action in this way, because the same verb form can be used for past, present or future actions. Again, this does not mean that the Chinese are unable to understand the concept of time. But it does mean they are not obliged to think about timing whenever they describe an action.
When your language routinely obliges you to specify certain types of information, it forces you to be attentive to certain details in the world and to certain aspects of experience that speakers of other languages may not be required to think about all the time. And since such habits of speech are cultivated from the earliest age, it is only natural that they can settle into habits of mind that go beyond language itself, affecting your experiences, perceptions, associations, feelings, memories and orientation in the world.
(cont'd)
Does Your Language Shape How You Think?
Guy Deutscher, NYT, 28 Aug 2010
Part 2 of 4
BUT IS THERE any evidence for this happening in practice?
Let’s take genders again. Languages like Spanish, French, German and Russian not only oblige you to think about the sex of friends and neighbors, but they also assign a male or female gender to a whole range of inanimate objects quite at whim. What, for instance, is particularly feminine about a Frenchman’s beard (la barbe)? Why is Russian water a she, and why does she become a he once you have dipped a tea bag into her? Mark Twain famously lamented such erratic genders as female turnips and neuter maidens in his rant “The Awful German Language.” But whereas he claimed that there was something particularly perverse about the German gender system, it is in fact English that is unusual, at least among European languages, in not treating turnips and tea cups as masculine or feminine. Languages that treat an inanimate object as a he or a she force their speakers to talk about such an object as if it were a man or a woman. And as anyone whose mother tongue has a gender system will tell you, once the habit has taken hold, it is all but impossible to shake off. When I speak English, I may say about a bed that “it” is too soft, but as a native Hebrew speaker, I actually feel “she” is too soft. “She” stays feminine all the way from the lungs up to the glottis and is neutered only when she reaches the tip of the tongue.
In recent years, various experiments have shown that grammatical genders can shape the feelings and associations of speakers toward objects around them. In the 1990s, for example, psychologists compared associations between speakers of German and Spanish. There are many inanimate nouns whose genders in the two languages are reversed. A German bridge is feminine (die Brücke), for instance, but el puente is masculine in Spanish; and the same goes for clocks, apartments, forks, newspapers, pockets, shoulders, stamps, tickets, violins, the sun, the world and love. On the other hand, an apple is masculine for Germans but feminine in Spanish, and so are chairs, brooms, butterflies, keys, mountains, stars, tables, wars, rain and garbage. When speakers were asked to grade various objects on a range of characteristics, Spanish speakers deemed bridges, clocks and violins to have more “manly properties” like strength, but Germans tended to think of them as more slender or elegant. With objects like mountains or chairs, which are “he” in German but “she” in Spanish, the effect was reversed.
In a different experiment, French and Spanish speakers were asked to assign human voices to various objects in a cartoon. When French speakers saw a picture of a fork (la fourchette), most of them wanted it to speak in a woman’s voice, but Spanish speakers, for whom el tenedor is masculine, preferred a gravelly male voice for it. More recently, psychologists have even shown that “gendered languages” imprint gender traits for objects so strongly in the mind that these associations obstruct speakers’ ability to commit information to memory.
Of course, all this does not mean that speakers of Spanish or French or German fail to understand that inanimate objects do not really have biological sex — a German woman rarely mistakes her husband for a hat, and Spanish men are not known to confuse a bed with what might be lying in it. Nonetheless, once gender connotations have been imposed on impressionable young minds, they lead those with a gendered mother tongue to see the inanimate world through lenses tinted with associations and emotional responses that English speakers — stuck in their monochrome desert of “its” — are entirely oblivious to. Did the opposite genders of “bridge” in German and Spanish, for example, have an effect on the design of bridges in Spain and Germany? Do the emotional maps imposed by a gender system have higher-level behavioral consequences for our everyday life? Do they shape tastes, fashions, habits and preferences in the societies concerned? At the current state of our knowledge about the brain, this is not something that can be easily measured in a psychology lab. But it would be surprising if they didn’t.
The area where the most striking evidence for the influence of language on thought has come to light is the language of space — how we describe the orientation of the world around us. Suppose you want to give someone directions for getting to your house. You might say: “After the traffic lights, take the first left, then the second right, and then you’ll see a white house in front of you. Our door is on the right.” But in theory, you could also say: “After the traffic lights, drive north, and then on the second crossing drive east, and you’ll see a white house directly to the east. Ours is the southern door.” These two sets of directions may describe the same route, but they rely on different systems of coordinates. The first uses egocentric coordinates, which depend on our own bodies: a left-right axis and a front-back axis orthogonal to it. The second system uses fixed geographic directions, which do not rotate with us wherever we turn.
We find it useful to use geographic directions when hiking in the open countryside, for example, but the egocentric coordinates completely dominate our speech when we describe small-scale spaces. We don’t say: “When you get out of the elevator, walk south, and then take the second door to the east.” The reason the egocentric system is so dominant in our language is that it feels so much easier and more natural. After all, we always know where “behind” or “in front of” us is. We don’t need a map or a compass to work it out, we just feel it, because the egocentric coordinates are based directly on our own bodies and our immediate visual fields.
But then a remote Australian aboriginal tongue, Guugu Yimithirr, from north Queensland, turned up, and with it came the astounding realization that not all languages conform to what we have always taken as simply “natural.” In fact, Guugu Yimithirr doesn’t make any use of egocentric coordinates at all. The anthropologist John Haviland and later the linguist Stephen Levinson have shown that Guugu Yimithirr does not use words like “left” or “right,” “in front of” or “behind,” to describe the position of objects. Whenever we would use the egocentric system, the Guugu Yimithirr rely on cardinal directions. If they want you to move over on the car seat to make room, they’ll say “move a bit to the east.” To tell you where exactly they left something in your house, they’ll say, “I left it on the southern edge of the western table.” Or they would warn you to “look out for that big ant just north of your foot.” Even when shown a film on television, they gave descriptions of it based on the orientation of the screen. If the television was facing north, and a man on the screen was approaching, they said that he was “coming northward.”
When these peculiarities of Guugu Yimithirr were uncovered, they inspired a large-scale research project into the language of space. And as it happens, Guugu Yimithirr is not a freak occurrence; languages that rely primarily on geographical coordinates are scattered around the world, from Polynesia to Mexico, from Namibia to Bali. For us, it might seem the height of absurdity for a dance teacher to say, “Now raise your north hand and move your south leg eastward.” But the joke would be lost on some: the Canadian-American musicologist Colin McPhee, who spent several years on Bali in the 1930s, recalls a young boy who showed great talent for dancing. As there was no instructor in the child’s village, McPhee arranged for him to stay with a teacher in a different village. But when he came to check on the boy’s progress after a few days, he found the boy dejected and the teacher exasperated. It was impossible to teach the boy anything, because he simply did not understand any of the instructions. When told to take “three steps east” or “bend southwest,” he didn’t know what to do. The boy would not have had the least trouble with these directions in his own village, but because the landscape in the new village was entirely unfamiliar, he became disoriented and confused. Why didn’t the teacher use different instructions? He would probably have replied that saying “take three steps forward” or “bend backward” would be the height of absurdity.
So different languages certainly make us speak about space in very different ways. But does this necessarily mean that we have to think about space differently? By now red lights should be flashing, because even if a language doesn’t have a word for “behind,” this doesn’t necessarily mean that its speakers wouldn’t be able to understand this concept. Instead, we should look for the possible consequences of what geographic languages oblige their speakers to convey. In particular, we should be on the lookout for what habits of mind might develop because of the necessity of specifying geographic directions all the time.
(cont'd)
Does Your Language Shape How You Think?
Guy Deutscher, NYT, 28 Aug 2010
Part 3 of 4
In order to speak a language like Guugu Yimithirr, you need to know where the cardinal directions are at each and every moment of your waking life. You need to have a compass in your mind that operates all the time, day and night, without lunch breaks or weekends off, since otherwise you would not be able to impart the most basic information or understand what people around you are saying. Indeed, speakers of geographic languages seem to have an almost-superhuman sense of orientation. Regardless of visibility conditions, regardless of whether they are in thick forest or on an open plain, whether outside or indoors or even in caves, whether stationary or moving, they have a spot-on sense of direction. They don’t look at the sun and pause for a moment of calculation before they say, “There’s an ant just north of your foot.” They simply feel where north, south, west and east are, just as people with perfect pitch feel what each note is without having to calculate intervals. There is a wealth of stories about what to us may seem like incredible feats of orientation but for speakers of geographic languages are just a matter of course. One report relates how a speaker of Tzeltal from southern Mexico was blindfolded and spun around more than 20 times in a darkened house. Still blindfolded and dizzy, he pointed without hesitation at the geographic directions.
How does this work? The convention of communicating with geographic coordinates compels speakers from the youngest age to pay attention to the clues from the physical environment (the position of the sun, wind and so on) every second of their lives, and to develop an accurate memory of their own changing orientations at any given moment. So everyday communication in a geographic language provides the most intense imaginable drilling in geographic orientation (it has been estimated that as much as 1 word in 10 in a normal Guugu Yimithirr conversation is “north,” “south,” “west” or “east,” often accompanied by precise hand gestures). This habit of constant awareness to the geographic direction is inculcated almost from infancy: studies have shown that children in such societies start using geographic directions as early as age 2 and fully master the system by 7 or 8. With such an early and intense drilling, the habit soon becomes second nature, effortless and unconscious. When Guugu Yimithirr speakers were asked how they knew where north is, they couldn’t explain it any more than you can explain how you know where “behind” is.
But there is more to the effects of a geographic language, for the sense of orientation has to extend further in time than the immediate present. If you speak a Guugu Yimithirr-style language, your memories of anything that you might ever want to report will have to be stored with cardinal directions as part of the picture. One Guugu Yimithirr speaker was filmed telling his friends the story of how in his youth, he capsized in shark-infested waters. He and an older person were caught in a storm, and their boat tipped over. They both jumped into the water and managed to swim nearly three miles to the shore, only to discover that the missionary for whom they worked was far more concerned at the loss of the boat than relieved at their miraculous escape. Apart from the dramatic content, the remarkable thing about the story was that it was remembered throughout in cardinal directions: the speaker jumped into the water on the western side of the boat, his companion to the east of the boat, they saw a giant shark swimming north and so on. Perhaps the cardinal directions were just made up for the occasion? Well, quite by chance, the same person was filmed some years later telling the same story. The cardinal directions matched exactly in the two tellings. Even more remarkable were the spontaneous hand gestures that accompanied the story. For instance, the direction in which the boat rolled over was gestured in the correct geographic orientation, regardless of the direction the speaker was facing in the two films.
Psychological experiments have also shown that under certain circumstances, speakers of Guugu Yimithirr-style languages even remember “the same reality” differently from us. There has been heated debate about the interpretation of some of these experiments, but one conclusion that seems compelling is that while we are trained to ignore directional rotations when we commit information to memory, speakers of geographic languages are trained not to do so. One way of understanding this is to imagine that you are traveling with a speaker of such a language and staying in a large chain-style hotel, with corridor upon corridor of identical-looking doors. Your friend is staying in the room opposite yours, and when you go into his room, you’ll see an exact replica of yours: the same bathroom door on the left, the same mirrored wardrobe on the right, the same main room with the same bed on the left, the same curtains drawn behind it, the same desk next to the wall on the right, the same television set on the left corner of the desk and the same telephone on the right. In short, you have seen the same room twice. But when your friend comes into your room, he will see something quite different from this, because everything is reversed north-side-south. In his room the bed was in the north, while in yours it is in the south; the telephone that in his room was in the west is now in the east, and so on. So while you will see and remember the same room twice, a speaker of a geographic language will see and remember two different rooms.
It is not easy for us to conceive how Guugu Yimithirr speakers experience the world, with a crisscrossing of cardinal directions imposed on any mental picture and any piece of graphic memory. Nor is it easy to speculate about how geographic languages affect areas of experience other than spatial orientation — whether they influence the speaker’s sense of identity, for instance, or bring about a less-egocentric outlook on life. But one piece of evidence is telling: if you saw a Guugu Yimithirr speaker pointing at himself, you would naturally assume he meant to draw attention to himself. In fact, he is pointing at a cardinal direction that happens to be behind his back. While we are always at the center of the world, and it would never occur to us that pointing in the direction of our chest could mean anything other than to draw attention to ourselves, a Guugu Yimithirr speaker points through himself, as if he were thin air and his own existence were irrelevant.
IN WHAT OTHER WAYS might the language we speak influence our experience of the world? Recently, it has been demonstrated in a series of ingenious experiments that we even perceive colors through the lens of our mother tongue. There are radical variations in the way languages carve up the spectrum of visible light; for example, green and blue are distinct colors in English but are considered shades of the same color in many languages. And it turns out that the colors that our language routinely obliges us to treat as distinct can refine our purely visual sensitivity to certain color differences in reality, so that our brains are trained to exaggerate the distance between shades of color if these have different names in our language. As strange as it may sound, our experience of a Chagall painting actually depends to some extent on whether our language has a word for blue.
In coming years, researchers may also be able to shed light on the impact of language on more subtle areas of perception. For instance, some languages, like Matses in Peru, oblige their speakers, like the finickiest of lawyers, to specify exactly how they came to know about the facts they are reporting. You cannot simply say, as in English, “An animal passed here.” You have to specify, using a different verbal form, whether this was directly experienced (you saw the animal passing), inferred (you saw footprints), conjectured (animals generally pass there that time of day), hearsay or such. If a statement is reported with the incorrect “evidentiality,” it is considered a lie. So if, for instance, you ask a Matses man how many wives he has, unless he can actually see his wives at that very moment, he would have to answer in the past tense and would say something like “There were two last time I checked.” After all, given that the wives are not present, he cannot be absolutely certain that one of them hasn’t died or run off with another man since he last saw them, even if this was only five minutes ago. So he cannot report it as a certain fact in the present tense. Does the need to think constantly about epistemology in such a careful and sophisticated manner inform the speakers’ outlook on life or their sense of truth and causation? When our experimental tools are less blunt, such questions will be amenable to empirical study.
(cont'd)
Does Your Language Shape How You Think?
Guy Deutscher, NYT, 28 Aug 2010
Part 4 of 4
For many years, our mother tongue was claimed to be a “prison house” that constrained our capacity to reason. Once it turned out that there was no evidence for such claims, this was taken as proof that people of all cultures think in fundamentally the same way. But surely it is a mistake to overestimate the importance of abstract reasoning in our lives. After all, how many daily decisions do we make on the basis of deductive logic compared with those guided by gut feeling, intuition, emotions, impulse or practical skills? The habits of mind that our culture has instilled in us from infancy shape our orientation to the world and our emotional responses to the objects we encounter, and their consequences probably go far beyond what has been experimentally demonstrated so far; they may also have a marked impact on our beliefs, values and ideologies. We may not know as yet how to measure these consequences directly or how to assess their contribution to cultural or political misunderstandings. But as a first step toward understanding one another, we can do better than pretending we all think the same.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/29/magazine/29language-t.html?_r=1&ref=general&src=me&pagewanted=all
GSquared
08-30-2010, 08:44
Ebonics helped me in Ft. Bragg when I was there for a commo class. When asked "Whatch yo name is?" , I knew he meant "What is your name?"
Nightfall
08-30-2010, 11:49
After living in "Mamfis" for 15 years, I learned my share of medical Ebonics. See if you can guess the translation:
1) I be gripin'
2) I be havin' seahorses in my liva
3) I got high blood
4) I got low blood
5) I be havin' sick as hell disease
6) Ma baby be havin' a ribacol
7) Ma cat be dischargin'
8) Ma baby be havin' a skint worm with a swole tip
9) Ma baby daddy be havin' 69 roses
10) Ma baby be havin' Smilin' Mighty Jesus
11) I be havin' fireballs in ma Eucharist
12) I be comin' on
13) I be runnin' off
14) You gonna look in mya era?
15) I don't drink no brrrr
16) I be the white sheep in ma family
17) Whe you people be stayin'?
You forgot, "I gots da sugar..."
Edited - of course I posted this before I saw the follow up.... Too quick with the reply to a fellow Memphrican...