View Full Version : "U.S. Special Forces ordered to shave off beards."
Irish_Army01
08-09-2010, 03:47
KABUL, Afghanistan - U.S. Special Operations Forces have had countless close shaves this month - not just with the enemy, but with razors and foamy cream.
After almost a decade of growing long beards as a show of deep respect for Afghanistan's male-dominated, bearded tribal culture, many of these elite warriors have been ordered by top brass to shave their faces clean.
Some veteran special ops troops fear they face a harder time getting taken seriously by local leaders they depend upon for intel about their bearded enemy, the Taliban.
"Now we look no different than the Brits or Russians before us," a dewhiskered Green Beret team leader with five Afghanistan tours told the Daily News, referring to two countries whose past wars here ended badly. "Growing a beard dramatically helps us."
Even former Afghan war commander Gen. Stanley McChrystal "should have grown a beard" to help win over the tribes, argued the Green Beret, who cannot be identified because of his mission.
Long beards, khaki ball caps and Oakley wraparound sunglasses have long been the iconic image of U.S. secret warriors here.
But commanders now want "professional-looking" soldiers in the field - at least those who deal mostly with Afghan troops, not civilians. They note that the ball caps are often adorned with macabre skulls, sending the wrong message to a populace weary of war and death.
Special ops troops living in or near villages can keep their beards, but are encouraged to adopt the traditional Afghan pokol cap instead of a billed cap.
Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/2010/08/08/2010-08-08_decision_hanging_on_a_whisker.html#ixzz0w6Ia95q s
Next Stop: Reflective Belts outside the wire
Add two(2) kilos of toiletries to that 60 kilo ruck...
Is the school house going to change the S.E.R.E. curriculum to include personal hi-gene??
Does this alter the implementation of the new DADT dick-tums??
Additionally,, Does this include Hilary and the new wave of DoS enforcers??
Inquiring minds want to know??
:munchin:D:munchin
MOO - but seems as if some of the complaints listed are valid - and there are exceptions for operational necessity.
The DET CDR who thought GEN McChrystal should've worn a beard needs to be retested - sounds as if he might've fudged on his IQ testing. :rolleyes:
Richard's $.02 :munchin
Utah Bob
08-09-2010, 08:00
Special ops troops living in or near villages can keep their beards, but are encouraged to adopt the traditional Afghan pokol cap instead of a billed cap.
That makes sense to me.
Dozer523
08-09-2010, 09:11
That makes sense to me."Special ops troops living in or near villages can keep their beards, but are encouraged to adopt the traditional Afghan pokol cap instead of a billed cap."
I'm with Bob. And they should speak Pashto and squat when they pee and abide by local dietary customs. Not pick and choose . . .
blue02hd
08-09-2010, 13:51
"Special ops troops living in or near villages can keep their beards, but are encouraged to adopt the traditional Afghan pokol cap instead of a billed cap."
I'm with Bob. And they should speak Pashto and squat when they pee and abide by local dietary customs. Not pick and choose . . .
What makes you think we aren't?
blacksmoke
08-09-2010, 15:05
It's about time somebody came along and straightened things up. You guys were running around theater all willy nilly :D. I thought the modified grooming standards were all about giving the individual soldiers more time to focus on the more improtant aspects of fighting a war. Somebody please correct me if that was a bad assumption.
This isn't the first time SF has had to shave in the GWOT. It was fortunately a short time and then the command backed off of it.
We went to some village elders who we had worked with for months - they wouldn't even look at. One even said I know your eyes and your voice but I do not know you... Does great things for the SF mission.. :mad:
The Reaper
08-09-2010, 16:42
It's about time somebody came along and straightened things up. You guys were running around theater all willy nilly :D. I thought the modified grooming standards were all about giving the individual soldiers more time to focus on the more improtant aspects of fighting a war. Somebody please correct me if that was a bad assumption.
You stand corrected.
TR
Kyobanim
08-09-2010, 17:02
They note that the ball caps are often adorned with macabre skulls,
I'm glad they like my designs. :o
Green Light
08-09-2010, 17:02
It's about time somebody came along and straightened things up. You guys were running around theater all willy nilly :D. I thought the modified grooming standards were all about giving the individual soldiers more time to focus on the more improtant aspects of fighting a war. Somebody please correct me if that was a bad assumption.
Do you think that a guy can't brush his teeth and not think about actions on the objective at the same time? It's for exactly what they said above - respect. The ball caps could go. Unless the folks in the villages start getting basefall fever. ;)
It's about time somebody came along and straightened things up. You guys were running around theater all willy nilly :D. I thought the modified grooming standards were all about giving the individual soldiers more time to focus on the more improtant aspects of fighting a war. Somebody please correct me if that was a bad assumption.
WHOA .....:confused:
blacksmoke
08-09-2010, 17:42
WHOA .....:confused:
This wasn't a dig on SF. In Iraq they also wore ballcaps and some had beards. In the regular army, we spend a lot of time making things dress right dress and squaring away uniforms and vehicles, because we don't speak the language and don't have as many skills to put to work, and must stay busy somehow. I thought the reason that SF was allowed a lot more leeway in their appearance was because they had better things going on. My mistake.
This wasn't a dig on SF. In Iraq they also wore ballcaps and some had beards. In the regular army, we spend a lot of time making things dress right dress and squaring away uiniforms and vehicles, becuase we don't speak the language and don't have as many skills to put to work, and must stay bust somehow. I thought the reason that SF was allowed a lot more leway in their appearance was because the had better things going on. My mistake.
From what I hear ;) they spend plenty of time squaring away things also ...
And YEP YOUR MISTAKE
Spell check is your friend
blacksmoke
08-09-2010, 18:16
Post removed for being offensive.
I'll have you know I fixed all (or most) of those spelling errors ALL BY MYSELF, thank you very much. : ) And nobody keeps things "SQUARED AWAY" like The First Team! :p
There is a whole lot I would love to say in regards to your comments ,BUT I won't for many reasons . I am not a QP ,I am guest on this board ,and I am only a wife .I also have a lot of respect for the members here ,and the men who operate the board .I don't want to be banned ;)
Anything ,that needs to be said here can be done by men ACTUALLY QUALIFIED to do just that .So I reckon I will move on ,but seriously ,you can take that tongue smile and lick the third rail as far as I am concerned .
...and I am only a wife.
WHOA... ;)
Pat
Peregrino
08-09-2010, 19:29
I don't understand the sudden upswing in offensive personal interactions lately; however, I am getting annoyed by them. Civility is REQUIRED. Lack thereof will get you banned. Only warning.
Angry Mike
08-09-2010, 19:39
This is some truly funny shista!
If you go over to military photos they have an extremely funny thread. Even some great posts about airsofter's!
I was on the pilot team. We didn't shave cuz we didn't have water. And it was cold as snot. When the Group CDR and one of the CG's came in later there was a flurry of activity by the group guys to clean up.
We didn't look like the NALT cuz we weren't wearing shower shoes in Dec and had on North Face polar fleece. They know we are gringos so it really didn't matter to them.
regards
Angry
Ambush Master
08-09-2010, 20:27
I don't understand the sudden upswing in offensive personal interactions lately; however, I am getting annoyed by them. Civility is REQUIRED. Lack thereof will get you banned. Only warning.
AND REMEMBER, where I place MY Warning SHOTS....................Through the LEFT TEMPLE!!!!!!
Have a Very SF Day bs!!
Martin
Trip_Wire (RIP)
08-09-2010, 20:40
I agree with 18DWifes's comments!I see no reason for this non-SF persons comments. When he graduates form SFAS or has been on an ODA perhaps his input will be meaningful.
Thank you
I appreciate that <3
I also apologize to anyone who felt I stepped out of my lane .
Ambush Master
08-09-2010, 21:00
Thank you
I appreciate that <3
I also apologize to anyone who felt I stepped out of my lane .
You weren't out of your lane!! You just caught it before we did!!
Take care.
Martin
...I am only a wifeUhhh...I'm divorced from the woman I was married to while in SF...and I wouldn't say that about her, even now...no need for the only...it's a tough job...
Uhhh...I'm divorced from the woman I was married to while in SF...and I wouldn't say that about her, even now...no need for the only...it's a tough job...
Thank you ,and yes it can be tough ,but I would never want to come across as someone who felt they could speak as a BTDT ..Hence the only a wife comment ;)
Thank you ,and yes it can be tough ,but I would never want to come across as someone who felt they could speak as a BTDT Well, you've been down a different road and have done different stuff...I had some time as the primary parent after I retired and putting up with two teenaged boys can be a real pain, even as a dad...thank God, I missed the toddler stage...
Dozer523
08-09-2010, 21:58
I agree with 18DWifes's comments!I see no reason for this non-SF persons comments. When he graduates form SFAS or has been on an ODA perhaps his input will be meaningful. Whoa! Trip, I gotta disagree -- that's not right.
The rule is anyone can post anytime (and take their licks, as required) except in the Special Forces Questions Area. And it SO much fun to jack-slap those violators.
Now, only QP's can post in The Early Bird? Not good.
In the regular army, we spend a lot of time making things dress right dress and squaring away uniforms and vehicles.A lot of the QPs here have been there, done that...SF is a different ball game.
The garrison-on-the-battlefield mentality is, of course, inevitable... what else would go on an OER in such an untenable command position?
Utah Bob
08-10-2010, 12:07
Originally Posted by blacksmoke View Post
I'll have you know I fixed all (or most) of those spelling errors ALL BY MYSELF, thank you very much. : ) And nobody keeps things "SQUARED AWAY" like The First Team!
I served with both SF and the First Team. Guess which I preferred?
1stindoor
08-10-2010, 12:47
I won't get dragged into the discussion as I'm enjoying "reading more and posting less," however I'll say this in regards to beards...if those that are trying to kill ours hesitate for a moment because they're not sure whether or not they're afghanis...I believe we should take advantage of that moment of doubt...and shoot faster.
OK, old days story.
Back in the old days when there was a bunch of guys standing up there in the mountains if you backed off 20 meters of so it was hard to tell who the Americans were. Until you looked at the feet.
Americans always had good boots on their feet. Might be civilian purchase but they were good quality boots.
And food? Don't ask, just eat it.
Man, if they don't let the troops have a beard they should at least let them grow out a "manly-man" mustache. A nice long dangly one.
1stindoor
08-10-2010, 14:52
OK, old days story.
And food? Don't ask, just eat it.
Hey...wasn't there a dog running around here yesterday?
Trip_Wire (RIP)
08-10-2010, 15:26
I served with both SF and the First Team. Guess which I preferred?
Yes, I agree I too served with the 1st Team (A Troop, 5th Cav., 1st Cav. Div.) In the Occupation of Japan (1947) No question in my mind which one I preferred !
BTW: I also belong to the NW Chapter of the 1st Cavalry Division Assn.
Also, it wasn't my intent to indicate non-SF people shouldn't post here, only to say that IMO people who haven't served in SF, shouldn't be jumping on an SF wife, who makes comments on SF situations and/or problems she has to live with and see's first hand.
I have the highest respect for SF wives who stick with their husbands, through the many required schools, missions and multiple deployments in todays SF action tempo. ;)
Dozer523
08-10-2010, 16:11
. . . IMO people who haven't served in SF, shouldn't be jumping on an SF wife . . . , Anyone, SF or not who tries to jump on MRFL is gonna get beat . . . twice. I get what's left.:D
I'm tracking ya, Trip.
First, command says shave, then shave. But i still see beards.
This comes down to the fact that, secondly, and as always, people should worry about themselves and their own people before they start griping or complaining about others. Worry about your PVT/SGT/LT Fatbody while he's moving up and down disney before you want to crotch-slap someone for a purported minor uniform/grooming standard infraction.
greenberetTFS
08-11-2010, 12:22
OK, old days story.
Back in the old days when there was a bunch of guys standing up there in the mountains if you backed off 20 meters of so it was hard to tell who the Americans were. Until you looked at the feet.
Americans always had good boots on their feet. Might be civilian purchase but they were good quality boots.
And food? Don't ask, just eat it.
Man, if they don't let the troops have a beard they should at least let them grow out a "manly-man" mustache. A nice long dangly one.
Also,look at the boots!.......... As Barry once said,"He looked down and saw a spit shine boot,garrison soliders" that's not what we are......:mad::mad::mad:
Big Teddy :munchin
TrapLine
08-11-2010, 12:53
At the risk of drawing fire, my first thought after reading this order was that someone up the chain of command was jealous that he could not grow one of those cool beards, regulations notwithstanding:eek:.
1/10 had a CSM that was one of the clones. He came out to a field exercise in spit shined Coccorans and was falling down left and right trying to go down a moderately steep, muddy hillside. I asked him if Bn CIF had not issued him some Mountain Boots, his response "they don't shine very well".
BTW: This is another part of the story I posted in the Smatchetesque (Edged Weapons) discussion.
Shortly after that event I moved to the RST. After being there for almost a year this same CSM recommended I not be extended to the Bn Cdr. SOCEUR got involved and the CSM/Bn Cdr changed theirs minds. Week or so later I was in the Bn area and he came up to me and said he wanted to tell me why he had recommended against my extension. Said "You don't work hard enough", I asked who said it since on one in the Bn had access to our products, knew where we were going next or what our schedule was. After hmming and hawing he blurted out "you don't work hard, you don't look like a MSG"
MVP
The way we and other SOF units project ourselves on the battlefield could be the deciding factor in whether or not your element gets attacked. The enemy looks at your posture during a patrol. They take note of your appearance. They see the way we outfit our vehicles. Bottom line is, they know who we are. I guarantee that Taliban hiding in the mountains of Afghanistan have seen a patrol of big grizzly SF guys with wolfman beards rolling through and decided not to mess with the "bearded ones". It's not only the rapport piece, it's a force-pro issue as well.
The way we and other SOF units project ourselves on the battlefield could be the deciding factor in whether or not your element gets attacked. The enemy looks at your...
Base, vehicles, uniforms, weapons, forces accompanying, etc.
I have no doubt that the presence of facial hair is way down on their list for determining unit identification.
Thank you
I appreciate that <3
I also apologize to anyone who felt I stepped out of my lane .
As the wife, you are the govenor, anchor and peace keeper of the home front, you can pick any lane of your choosing.
As for me, I felt lucky my wife allowed me in the house every few months to see the children. Boots and rucksack were left at the door, followed by shower before I could pick up my newborn.
The garrison-on-the-battlefield mentality is, of course, inevitable... what else would go on an OER in such an untenable command position?
What General said, "No unit who passed an inspection was combat ready, and no combat ready unit ever passed an inspection".
LongWire
08-12-2010, 04:27
Fact of the matter is that if you can't elaborate who the BSO is, what you do, who/what your partner unit is/does, and how you operate to the CJSOTF-A CDR and SGM while they are in your house, and you have big bushy beards, the command will focus on that and tell you to shave them. This should not surprise anyone still operating with any experience of how things have been changing.
The morning we were told to shave I linked up with my ANA company for training. The ANA First Sergeant was pissed!!! He said we all looked like a bunch of chai boys. I replied let's go shoot and see who's a chai boy. I told him I'm a Soldier and I do what I'm told and he said the decision was stupid and showed a lack of cultural awareness. You could feel the ANA's looks and feelings toward us were different for weeks after that.
incarcerated
08-17-2010, 09:26
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-08-17/karzai-says-private-security-companies-must-leave-afghanistan-by-december.html
Karzai Says Private Security Companies Must Leave Afghanistan by December
By Eltaf Najafizada and James Rupert
Aug 17, 2010 7:06 AM
President Hamid Karzai ordered private security companies in Afghanistan to end their operations within four months, a step U.S. officials said risks creating new problems in the war against Taliban insurgents.
Karzai ordered the shutdown of the more than 50 government- registered companies, employing more than 30,000 personnel, “to counter corruption, ensure the security of people and property” and to prevent the misuse of military weapons and uniforms, said a Dari-language statement issued by his office.
Nearly 17,000 armed guards from both Afghan and foreign companies protect bases, convoys and personnel of NATO’s International Security Assistance Force (ISAF), a Defense Department report said in May. Others protect offices and residences for foreign embassies, private companies and international aid organizations.
While the U.S. shares Karzai’s goal of shifting security control to Afghan government forces, “we believe that there is still a need for private security companies” to support the U.S.-led war against the Taliban, State Department spokesman Philip J. Crowley told reporters in Washington yesterday....
Eagle5US
08-17-2010, 11:08
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-08-17/karzai-says-private-security-companies-must-leave-afghanistan-by-december.html
Karzai Says Private Security Companies Must Leave Afghanistan by December
By Eltaf Najafizada and James Rupert
Aug 17, 2010 7:06 AM
President Hamid Karzai ordered private security companies in Afghanistan to end their operations within four months, a step U.S. officials said risks creating new problems in the war against Taliban insurgents.
Karzai ordered the shutdown of the more than 50 government- registered companies, employing more than 30,000 personnel, “to counter corruption, ensure the security of people and property” and to prevent the misuse of military weapons and uniforms, said a Dari-language statement issued by his office.
Nearly 17,000 armed guards from both Afghan and foreign companies protect bases, convoys and personnel of NATO’s International Security Assistance Force (ISAF), a Defense Department report said in May. Others protect offices and residences for foreign embassies, private companies and international aid organizations.
While the U.S. shares Karzai’s goal of shifting security control to Afghan government forces, “we believe that there is still a need for private security companies” to support the U.S.-led war against the Taliban, State Department spokesman Philip J. Crowley told reporters in Washington yesterday....
What does this have to do with SOF being required to shave?:confused:
Eagle
Utah Bob
08-17-2010, 14:19
Imagine if the situation were reversed and the Afghans were assisting us (I know it's a stretch) and suddenly they were ordered to wear mini skirts. Perhaps they might lose some face in the eyes of the US troops.
And I said mini skirts, not Kilts.;)
incarcerated
08-17-2010, 22:31
What does this have to do with SOF being required to shave?:confused:
Eagle
You are quite right.
Off-topic post. :o
Doing push-ups now.
What General said, "No unit who passed an inspection was combat ready, and no combat ready unit ever passed an inspection".
That's a cop out for lazy troops. Inspections are a part of good order and discipline. The same guy who said that is probably overweight, can't pass a PT test, and has a filthy weapon. He was clearly relieved because he could not account for his sensitive items; and because he had no records of his mens' training, he was unable to properly apply his combat power.
But...at least he failed his inspection..... shortly before getting his men killed in combat. Shave or don't shave. Is it really THAT big of an emotional event? I see guys walking around all the time with big wolfman beards. Why? because they can...not because they should. The lack of enforcement of policies - such as relaxed grooming - leads to a sense of entitlement. Suddenly soldiers feel they have the RIGHT to stray away from standards because no one will say anything. When someone has the balls to enforce the standards- which everyone seems to hold so high - then there is a mass cry of "foul!"
Don't get me wrong....there are operational reasons for beards. But the supply guy in the suburban with all the antennas and the goatee with braids ain't part of those operations. You all have seen "that guy," but who corrected him? My guess is that the guys in the FOBs aren't the target here...it's the jackass in the suburban rolling down the street on BAF and tellin all the ladies how cool he is.
After all..."Long beards, khaki ball caps and Oakley wraparound sunglasses have long been the iconic image of U.S. secret warriors ."
My 2 cents for what it's worth
What General said, "No unit who passed an inspection was combat ready, and no combat ready unit ever passed an inspection".I do believe that is one of the corollaries to Murphy's Law...
I've seen where folks have attributed that comment to Jean Paul Sarte...incorrectly.
All I'm going to say is that for my last 2 rotations I had a giant beard. My first trip it did not play as much a role as my second trip due to the mission we had. First trip it was just a sign of who I was amongst the Conventional guys. Second trip it was absolutely critical to my stature in my AO. I was on a patrol in an extremely hostile area where we had not been in a very long time (years). While holding an impromptu Shura, a very old village elder reached out and touched my beard as he talked to me (yes my beard was of epic proportions and his touching me did make me feel slightly uncomfortable) and commented on my beard. It wasn't the words I had to say to this man as much as it was my understanding of their culture and the fact that I spent the previous 6 months growing out a beard to show that I respected and recognized their culture. End result was that IED's in this Elder's area of influence declined and he was a constant participant in our Weekly Shura's with the local governance.
Shortly after that I had a visit from M4 (McChrystal, for those who don't know the acronyms) at my very remote firebase and was told by higher that all beards had to be trimmed to "X" inch for his visit. When the District Governor, ANP Chief of Police, ANA CDR, ASG CDR, and village elders saw me they all were taken aback by my appearance. I was not the man that they had grown to know and trusted over the previous 6 months.
We stress language and cultural awareness in our ranks from the highest command guidance but it seems to be easier to say... no beards.... standard uniforms, etc... in order to alleviate a 1 Star and CSM from having to answer questions from the ISAF CG and CSM about uniformity and "hobo" appearances of people that are encountered as they "circulate" the battlefield from Kabul.
Final rant and I will stop... recently there was an awards ceremony at FBNC for some Silver Star recipients. And I quote.... "the enemy does not want to fight the 'bearded ones' because they know that they will lose."
It is:
1.) A cultural thing.
2.) A Force Pro thing.
Take those away from us and I might as well go back to the 82nd ABN where I started as a young 2LT and the focus was more on looking good than accomplishing my mission.
I think the point here is that it is a situational thing and everyone does not need to have a beard to effectively perform their assigned missions there.
Richard
blue02hd
08-18-2010, 21:16
Take those away from us and I might as well go back to the 82nd ABN where I started as a young 2LT and the focus was more on looking good than accomplishing my mission.
You had me up until the last line. As a 2LT in the 82nd ABN I had accumulated 8 years Team time already. I promise you, the former was not of my concern, mission but my mens safety was. You shouldn't paint all officers with the same paint brush, it only takes away from your point, which was a solid one. But FWIW, I am currently rocking a beard that is as necessary to my daily routine as is the WEBCAM camera I use weekly for VTC's. If the mission dictates- rock it, and hope you have a Chain of Command that supports you.
Appearance matters! Especially to those you're trying too influence.:cool:
Stay safe.
Irish_Army01
08-19-2010, 13:44
I won't get dragged into the discussion as I'm enjoying "reading more and posting less," however I'll say this in regards to beards...if those that are trying to kill ours hesitate for a moment because they're not sure whether or not they're afghanis...I believe we should take advantage of that moment of doubt...and shoot faster.
I agree as I always assumed thats why you wore beards in the first place.
Kingfisher
08-19-2010, 16:15
There is a right time and place for everything! It should be the Team Leader's discretion on whether having that beard will enhance the accomplishment of that team’s mission. Big boy rules apply. Enough said.
You had me up until the last line. As a 2LT in the 82nd ABN I had accumulated 8 years Team time already. I promise you, the former was not of my concern, mission but my mens safety was. You shouldn't paint all officers with the same paint brush, it only takes away from your point, which was a solid one.
I'm not saying looking good was my priority... I'm saying that looking good was our CSM's priority for my men. For example. I remember having a BDE CSM ask me who authorized me to alter the uniform of the 82nd ABN to include Battle Roster #'s and blood types to our uniforms while out on patrol in OIF 1! While I memorized every BR# and blood type of my men we (my PSG and SL's) did not want to have to question our ability to recall these things from memory. Luckily, things have changed some what from what I have heard.
My point was Mission First, People Always. Old stanza of the Cadet Creed. Yeah I still remember it. And FWIW I don't paint all Officer's with the same paint brush. I had the greatest mentors a young officer could have asked for. I agree... not all of us need beards to do our jobs while strolling around the Boardwalk getting our nightly AppleBeas dinner. But the boys doing the deed daily with the local populace do.
1stindoor
08-20-2010, 06:46
...yes my beard was of epic proportions...
Like yourself much?
j/k...I've seen the pics.
Like yourself much?
j/k...I've seen the pics.
You had a fairly fierce one as well. But the golds gym tank top always took away from it.
1stindoor
08-20-2010, 12:41
You had a fairly fierce one as well. But the golds gym tank top always took away from it.
Now really...was that last sentence necessary?:lifter