View Full Version : Terrorists are 'normal'
Somehow, people still don't want to believe this. J. Post knows his stuff cold.
http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/WinnipegSun/News/2004/08/08/pf-573300.html
Terrorists 'normal'
Suicide bombers fit their culture, psychiatrist says
By CP
TORONTO -- Suicide bombers are rational, sane people whose choice to
end their lives as they kill others is considered perfectly normal in
societies they grow up in, the Globe and Mail reported yesterday from a
southern Ontario religious conference. In a chilling analysis of what
makes a terrorist, a U.S. psychiatrist who worked for the U.S. Central
Intelligence Agency said most extremists who use violence are not
emotionally disturbed.
In fact, they would be expelled from their organizations if they
appeared to be unbalanced, the Toronto Star said from Orillia, Ont.
"Most terrorists are quite normal. It's hard to understand but quite
true," Jerrold Post said Friday.
APPEAL BROADENING
Post, who interviewed terrorists in a 21-year career with the CIA,
said the appeal of suicide bombing is broadening.
The practice was once limited to very young men, a huge percentage of
them teenagers.
"Now women, mothers, have joined this pathway, and middle-aged men, a
43-year-old father," he told the Globe and Mail.
"I see it as a trend."
He said his colleagues have given up asking people why they join their
militant organizations to become suicide bombers.
"Because we would get these weird looks: 'Why do we join? Everybody is
joining. It's only the weird individuals who don't join,' " said Post,
who's now at George Washington University.
Post said suicide bombers are driven by deep despair over the forces
they see arrayed against them.
He said "psychological warfare," or education, is the most effective
weapon against terror. Young people must learn the version of Islam in
which they have been indoctrinated has nothing to do with mainstream
Islam.
NousDefionsDoc
08-11-2004, 07:48
"Now women, mothers, have joined this pathway, and middle-aged men, a 43-year-old father," he told the Globe and Mail.
'Why do we join? Everybody is joining. It's only the weird individuals who don't join,' " said Post, who's now at George Washington University.
Young people must learn the version of Islam in which they have been indoctrinated has nothing to do with mainstream
Islam.
Everybody is joining, its a trend, yet has nothing to do with "mainstream Islam"?
This is the point I was trying to make before. When does the exception become the rule?
I think it scares people to think that if circumstances were different, they could be participating in terrorist suicides. The spped with which evolution from the evaluation that much terrorism in Europe was a result of narcissistic 'splitting' to that which states that most terrorists are not emotionally or mentally disturbed occured is remarkable.
In my opinion, people will always prefer arguments that criminals and terrorists and their like suffer from a kind of disease which 'normal' members of the public would never have.
Solid
PS: NDD, if I'm understanding what you're saying, IMO the exception becomes the rule when the circumstances change to permit it. From my reading it seems that the most promising explanations of terrorism are primarily environmental/circumstantial and then become 'group dynamic' (group think, inward pressure etc). If the circumstances which existed to create the minority terrorist group evolve to create a majority terrorist group, the exception has become the rule. JMO.
Try explaining "Terrorist are normal" too the families of 9/11!
NousDefionsDoc
08-11-2004, 08:08
Solid,
I have no idea what you are talking about.
The exception becomes the rule when the frequency of occurence is greater for the exception than the rule on a consistant basis.
I keep hearing about mainstream and not all, however, the face of Islam before the non-Islamic world is consistantly that of terrorism, with a very few exceptions such as those Green Hat has metioned in his AO.
To say terrorism has nothing to do with mainstream Islam is nothing more than a PC add-in IMO.
I know not all Muslims are terrorists, anymore than all Irish are members of the IRA. But the people with the guns and bombs are making the rules at the behest of their religious leaders which are also their political leaders.
The Reaper
08-11-2004, 08:19
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
Solid,
I know not all Muslims are terrorists, anymore than all Irish are members of the IRA. But the people with the guns and bombs are making the rules at the behest of their religious leaders which are also their political leaders.
Did you ever see an Irish priest exhorting his parishoners to go out and commit these senseless acts of violence?
Did the schools in Northern Ireland teach hatred and murder of civilian non-combatants as part of their curriculum?
Did the elected leadership of the Irish encourage violence and protect those who were perpetrating it?
TR
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
Everybody is joining, its a trend, yet has nothing to do with "mainstream Islam"?
Because it has nothing to do with 'Islam'. Also, the article is not saying that everyone is joining, only that that sentiment is expressed by a number of people who are asked (and I should caveat that most of the people asked are being detained for one reason or another, so you already have a narrow test population) Those who join PERCIEVE that what they are getting into is what everyone else is doing (though it is not). You can substitute 'Muslims' and 'terrorism' with 'inner city youth' and 'bringing guns to school' or 'fat bald white men' and 'insider trading'.
Read 'Understanding Terrorist Networks'.
**Edited to not be a snippy little bitch. This morning sucked for a number of reasons, none of which had to do with this, so my choice of commets was poor.
Originally posted by The Reaper
Did you ever see an Irish priest exhorting his parishoners to go out and commit these senseless acts of violence?
Did the schools in Northern Ireland teach hatred and murder of civilian non-combatants as part of their curriculum?
Did the elected leadership of the Irish encourage violence and protect those who were perpetrating it?
TR
Yes.
No.
Yes.
NousDefionsDoc
08-11-2004, 08:25
Originally posted by The Reaper
Did you ever see an Irish priest exhorting his parishoners to go out and commit these senseless acts of violence?
Did the schools in Northern Ireland teach hatred and murder of civilian non-combatants as part of their curriculum?
Did the elected leadership of the Irish encourage violence and protect those who were perpetrating it?
TR
I never saw it, but I read about it. Not on the same level as the current problem.
Jimbo,
I'll admit I haven't read everything you've put up. Where is the social networks theory you want me to read?
NDD:
http://www.irit.fr/COSI/training/complexity-tutorial/definition-of-complexity.htm
HTH, very interesting.
Solid
Jimbo,
One thing that occurs to me now is that for Salafism to work, it needed some basis within the Koran, no matter how tenuous. Are there equivalents for the Sword Verses in The Bible or Torah?
Thank you,
Solid
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
Jimbo,
I'll admit I haven't read everything you've put up. Where is the social networks theory you want me to read?
Pretty much just the book Understanding Terrorist Networks. It will address a number of issues.
Originally posted by Solid
Jimbo,
One thing that occurs to me now is that for Salafism to work, it needed some basis within the Koran, no matter how tenuous. Are there equivalents for the Sword Verses in The Bible or Torah?
Thank you,
Solid
While I have read all three, I know far too little about those books to begin to compare them.
Jimbo,
Why do you think so many of the essays in Walter Reich's book on the Origins of Terrorism speak of psychological imbalances as opposed to environmental pressures? What changed in the view of terrorism, or is the understanding of terrorism presented by Sageman only applicable to the Global Jihad?
Thank you,
Solid
I forget who he examined specifically, but IIRC he looked at some of the Europen terrorists in the 70s. They tended to have higher 'disturbed' percentages than the whole of terrorism.
I think this study went a long way: http://www.neuromaster.com/LOCsocpsyterrorism/
This study differs from Sageman on some of the finer points of why a person joins a group, but I think when the two need to be read to have as clear a view on the issue as possible.
Also check out:
http://psych.umb.edu/Faculty/milburn/Teaching/psych230/Lectures/Terrorism/Terrorism_textonly.htm
http://www.sais-jhu.edu/Faculty/pecastaing/Syllabi/Terror%20Syllabus%206-04.pdf
the second link is the syllabus for a class I just took.
NousDefionsDoc
08-11-2004, 10:32
Since I don't have access to the book yet, please explain briefly how it has nothing to do with Islam.
Thank you Jimbo!
NDD this is (http://www.globalsecurity.org/security/library/congress/9-11_commission/030709-sageman.htm) effectively a brief (very brief) overview of the book.
HTH,
Solid
Alright, let me try to explain. Many of the terrorists who have carried out attacks against the US, including the hijackers on Sept 11th, were not very religious. Some came from famlies who were, by and large, secular.
Well, wait a second. I thought this was ISLAMIC terrorism. I thought these were ISLAMIC fundamentalists.
Some are. Most are not. 90 percent of the leadership is.
So why do these assclowns do this?
Mostly, it seems, the 'foot soldiers' are looking for some way to define themselves. Usually, they have had a completely unremarkable life and for some psychological reason (another discussion) they feel a need to make an impact.
Also, when Muslims travel away from their homelands, they are often descriminated against or somehow made to feel unwelcome in their new home. (the fault for this I think lies with Islamic schools and many Islamic leaders who have done little to prepare their brethern to interact with other societies). In such situations, individuals tend to seek out others like themselves.
At this point, in both the first example and the second, chance, chaos theory and social networks come into serious play. Particularly, as I mentioned earlier, if the person feels that all of his friends are into jihad, he will likely go along with it (again, this is a whole other discussion that delves into cultural anthropology).
If the individual has prior social contact with someone associated with the global jihad, they have a better chance of becoming a terrorist. If they do not, the chances they will become a terrorist drop precipitously (especially if they find some other way to define themselves or relate to their new environment).
So, for example, say Ahmed is an engineer who is underemployed in his native Egypt. He is educated and not very religious. He moves to Chicago to pursue the American dream, but he does not find work right away and does not pick up on English all that well or quickly. So he starts looking for some people to hang out with who are like him. Maybe, at this point, Ahmed sees a flyer for a group of young immigrant professionals. He goes to one of their coffee hours and runs into an older engineer who is from Jordan or Burkina Faso. Older guy says, "Hey I was once like you. Have a job." Ahmed works as an engineer at a doohicky plant making $60,000, finds a nice Algerian woman, marries and drive the family around their suburb in their C class Mercedes. Ahmed dies in the US at the ripe old age of 78 and seven of his grandchildren are there. One is a SFC in the Army.
Now, say a sexy girl in a tight mini walks by and Ahmed is distracted and misses the young professionals flyer. He's walking down the street kicking a rock and thinks, "Hey. Its Friday. I'll go catch some people as they come out of prayer at the mosque, since I know I can find someone who speaks Arabic and might be able to hook me up with a job." So Ahmed rolls down to the Mosque. As people are milling about after prayer, he sees a guy he recognizes from his flight over/apartment building/corner shop. He goes over and introduces himself. This guy says, come drink chai with us and rap about current events. So Ahmed does, but he does not agree with everything that is said. But he has new friends, so he sticks around. Some of his friends make comments about his clothes and his hair and how he looks at girls. So he starts dressing different and ...you get the picture.
However, in the example above, if Ahmed does not know anyone in the jihad and none of his buddies do either, they are not very likely to start up a cell of their own. Its possible, but not likely. But if Ahmed had a cousin in Egypt who knew a guy who was looking for people to go to Afghanistan or Bosnia or Chechnya or Iraq, well, then, these guys might get to go.
I'll write more later.
NousDefionsDoc
08-11-2004, 13:39
That's pretty much what I thought you were going to say and is pretty much right out of Origins of Terrorism .
It does not however, validate your statement that Islam has nothing to do with it. As you yourself said, 90% of the leadership is. And Islam is the vehicle that lends legitimacy to the rest of their doctrine. It is the means to get past any aversion to doing what the leadership feels must be done. Just like Liberation Theology got the Latino Catholics past it. Just like communism got many past it.
Islam has quite a bit to do with it, IMO. It is the means to the end. Classic HFCUI.
You are treading dangerously close to the social worker theory espoused by the left for so long.
As for your examples, good recruiters will always target likely prospects. I would think there is a good deal more active recruiting of the disenfranchised than there is accidental encounters. How hard can it be to find out who is unemployed and doing poorly in English classes in these small tightly knit communities? The mosques and madrasas are the keys, as they are the centers of social life. And they both have everything to do with Islam.
I agree it is about a power struggle. But the power comes from and leads back to the Quoran. Motives for joining will always vary, but the sense of belonging to the group as you describe is facilitated by a group that includes the after life and is in agreement with everything they have been taught since birth. Take away Islam, with its mullahs, indoctrination, and promises - and you have an organizaed group of unemployed. Add it back in, you have a global terrorist movement.
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
You are treading dangerously close to the social worker theory espoused by the left for so long.
Yeah. I'm pretty sure I am. Since AQ leadership was heavily influenced by Marxism, I think that would kind of make sense.
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
As for your examples, good recruiters will always target likely prospects. I would think there is a good deal more active recruiting of the disenfranchised than there is accidental encounters. How hard can it be to find out who is unemployed and doing poorly in English classes in these small tightly knit communities? The mosques and madrasas are the keys, as they are the centers of social life. And they both have everything to do with Islam.
There is very little evidence of top down recruitment in AQ. Folks I know have used the recruitment chapter from HFCUI as a hypothesis for investigating this current issue and have not found more than a few incidents to back it up. Granted, they COULD get their act together and do some good recruitng, however that would leave tehm open to penetration and frankly, enough people want to join that they do not have to recruit all that much. From open sources, recruitment more accurately consists of facilitation of travel to a camp.
I am unaware of Origins of Terrorism's chapter on social networks (both analog and digital) (with attendent discussion of Granovetter's Strength of Weak Ties) and their effect on entry into a terrorist group.
If you are basing your understanding of Islamic terrrorism on Reich's book, I think you are doing yourself a disservice. There are several books out that I think do a better job of presenting the history of the radical Islamic ideology. Ghost Wars is one. His does not discuss the failure of Arab nationalism. I'll get into that at some point, but its time to PT.
Last thing: Reich could have used some better essays by some of those authors, particularly Post and Peg Hermann.
NousDefionsDoc
08-11-2004, 14:24
I am basing my understanding of Islamic terrorism from what I have read on here (mostly posts by you and the QPs), some pre-9/11 books, and what I hear on tv by people like Bill Cowan.
Reich's book really has nothing to do with islamic terrorism per se. It is about the psychology of why people become or join terrorists. And is very limited. I have said that before.
You're misunderstanding about the social worker theory.
For years, liberals claimed that people joined terrorist groups or became terrorists because they didn't have anything and were frustrated by it. Basically they said poor people were terrorists and if we only gave them food and water wells, they would stop. Pure BS.
I'm not thinking top down recruitment, I'm thinking Amway.
The group dynamic usually goes both ways. Those that are out want to belong, and those that are in want their friends and family members to be with them. Instant cliques that provide warmth and protection from threats from within the group.
Heavily influenced by Marxism? Buying the ghosts of the old party line there brah?
I'll admit I need to research more.
Jack Moroney (RIP)
08-11-2004, 14:31
Originally posted by Jimbo
There is very little evidence of top down recruitment in AQ. Folks I know have used the recruitment chapter from HFCUI as a hypothesis for investigating this current issue and have not found more than a few incidents to back it up. Granted, they COULD get their act together and do some good recruitng, however that would leave tehm open to penetration and frankly, enough people want to join that they do not have to recruit all that much. From open sources, recruitment more accurately consists of facilitation of travel to a camp.
I
If I had hair, this thread would make it hurt. And why do you think that there is very little evidence of top down recruitment? Folks are going to be recruited at different levels with different vetting for different jobs. Those that are being recruited for AQ are going to be put thru sufficient vetting hoops to ensure that in fact they are who they say they are and can do that what it is for which they are being recruited. Foot soldiers who are needed for low level "fire and forget" jobs are going to be rounded up off the streets, runs through whatever tests need to be done, given what limited training they need, and sent off on their expendable way. I doubt if you are going to see any of the movement's leaders strapped down with explosives. There are several issues here. One is that in addition to the madrassas and mullahs are the tribal loyalties and affiliations. When that bond is broken and kids wander into the cities to find jobs they have lost all bonds that they had under the tribal leaders that controlled them. This becomes one of the centers of gravity for defeating islamic terrorists-do what is needed to allow the tribal leaders to maintain the bonds over those that would stray. The other center of gravity here, seems to be, the poplulation in general that have had their religion co-opted by the radical fundamentalists supported by the madrassas and mullahs. The effort here is to invalidate the brand of islam that is being spewed forth and revalidate the non-fundamental brand of islam. Just my opinion.
Jack Moroney
NousDefionsDoc
08-11-2004, 14:40
Originally posted by Solid
Thank you Jimbo!
NDD this is (http://www.globalsecurity.org/security/library/congress/9-11_commission/030709-sageman.htm) effectively a brief (very brief) overview of the book.
HTH,
Solid
How does this disprove anything I have said?
NDD, that was just the skinny on Sageman's book. I'm not going to participate in this argument because I lack credentials to do so, but IMHO the only way it can progress is to agree upon several 'facts' which can then be interpreted differently by each argument. 'Facts' which I can think of off the top of my head are-
The recruiting methods
The religious upbringing of different elements in the movement
The geography of those in and recruited by the movement
The interpersonal links which allowed members to be recruited
The Koranique (textual) basis which the movement uses to support its claims
The history of AQ as a movement, and other Salafist Groups
The structure of AQ et al.
There are probably others, but my thoughts are that without agreeing on such a set of stated assumptions, this argument will not be able to progress because no one will be interpreting the same situations.
JMO, backing out as fast as possible,
Solid
Originally posted by Solid
There are probably others, but my thoughts are that without agreeing on such a set of stated assumptions, this argument will not be able to progress because no one will be interpreting the same situations.
JMO, backing out as fast as possible,
Solid
Jimbo should follow your lead also!
Which one of you two have "operational experience" on the ground?
I'm tired of all of you guys "theories" that have never been tested in a combat AO! You sit behind your "books, lectures, papers and etc."
Get on the ground and put them to the test against REALITY! You fuckers would loose every GODDAMN time!
NousDefionsDoc
08-11-2004, 16:39
Solid, that was more for Jimbo.
Guy,
No disputing that, it's why I went for the 'agreed set of assumptions' argument. What I've learnt from my reading might drastically differ from what you know on the ground, making discussion difficult.
Solid
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
More for Jimbo.
DO NOT EVEN GET ME STARTED!
I've been on the ground while they were trying to institute that "educational" bullshit! As soon as the "shit, hit the fan," they were looking to us to get the "hell out of dodge"!
NousDefionsDoc
08-11-2004, 16:52
Originally posted by Guy
Jimbo should follow your lead also!
Which one of you two have "operational experience" on the ground?
I'm tired of all of you guys "theories" that have never been tested in a combat AO! You sit behind your "books, lectures, papers and etc."
Get on the ground and put them to the test against REALITY! You fuckers would loose every GODDAMN time!
There you go again, interjecting reality into a perfectly good theory argument.:D
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
There you go again, interjecting reality into a perfectly good theory argument.:D
Now That's Funny
OK, OK, I'm leaving......:munchin
Originally posted by Solid
Guy,
No disputing that, it's why I went for the 'agreed set of assumptions' argument. What I've learnt from my reading might drastically differ from what you know on the ground, making discussion difficult.
Solid
Solid,
I don't give a fuck what you or Jimbo read! I'm just tired of you guys BS rhetoric. Islam...Muslim...or WTF you want to call them, FUCK THEM!
We tried eight years under the Clinton administration to appease, conjole, get along with those motherfuckers and it cost us 3K+ lives and XXXBillions$!
NousDefionsDoc
08-11-2004, 17:18
So did I win yet?
Originally posted by Jack Moroney
And why do you think that there is very little evidence of top down recruitment?
Sir,
I agree with much of what you said. However in terms of recruitment, I stand by what I said.
Guy,
My learning about this subject sure as hell just ain't through books, but that is sure as shit all I'm going to talk about on the open net.
NousDefionsDoc
08-11-2004, 17:43
Well, what do you guys want to do now?:munchin
NousDefionsDoc
08-11-2004, 17:56
Originally posted by Jimbo
Agree to disagree?
Sure, why should today be any different than any other day?:D
Originally posted by Jimbo
Guy,
My learning about this subject sure as hell just ain't through books, but that is sure as shit all I'm going to talk about on the open net.
Your writings are strategic.
Mine are tactical.
Which one is more important too the men and women involved directly with this GWOT...the ones that pay "the ultimate sacrifice"?
I'll bet you a months pay...that if we stood side by side, downtown Baghdad. You could not operate based on that theory you posted!
Because you write well...does not mean shit me! I'm the one who's ass is on the line.
PM one of the admins with your whateverthefucktheycallitnowadays...then they will let me know to stand down!
Am I going to be standing next to you and a huge group of guys wearing Royal Robbins gear?
Can I wear a baggy shirt and jeans and hang out with my reporter friends? Do I get to hand out free medicine? Do I get to use my Arabic teacher's family as an intel network for 48 hours before I stand out in the street with you? I've never been in a foreign country with a bunch of people I can count on. I don't know how that all works.
I doubt highly I'd be in the middle of Baghdad in the first place, unless it was on a bet.
Your mission is very, very different than mine.
NousDefionsDoc
08-11-2004, 18:27
April 26, 2004
Militants in Europe Openly Call for Jihad and the Rule of Islam
LUTON, England, April 24 ? The call to jihad is rising in the streets of Europe, and is being answered, counterterrorism officials say.
In this former industrial town north of London, a small group of young Britons whose parents emigrated from Pakistan after World War II have turned against their families' new home. They say they would like to see Prime Minister Tony Blair dead or deposed and an Islamic flag hanging outside No. 10 Downing Street.
They swear allegiance to Osama bin Laden and his goal of toppling Western democracies to establish an Islamic superstate under Shariah law, like Afghanistan under the Taliban. They call the Sept. 11 hijackers the "Magnificent 19" and regard the Madrid train bombings as a clever way to drive a wedge into Europe.
On Thursday evening, at a tennis center community hall in Slough, west of London, their leader, Sheik Omar Bakri Mohammad, spoke of his adherence to Osama bin Laden. If Europe fails to heed Mr. bin Laden's offer of a truce ? provided that all foreign troops are withdrawn from Iraq in three months ? Muslims will no longer be restrained from attacking the Western countries that play host to them, the sheik said.
"All Muslims of the West will be obliged," he said, to "become his
sword" in a new battle. Europeans take heed, he added, saying, "It is foolish to fight people who want death ? that is what they are looking for."
On working-class streets of old industrial towns like Crawley, Luton, Birmingham and Manchester, and in the Arab enclaves of Germany, France, Switzerland and other parts of Europe, intelligence officials say a fervor for militancy is intensifying and becoming more open.
In Hamburg, Dr. Mustafa Yoldas, the director of the Council of Islamic Communities, saw a correlation to the discord in Iraq. "This is a very dangerous situation at the moment," Dr. Yoldas said. "My impression is that Muslims have become more and more angry against the United States."
Hundreds of young Muslim men are answering the call of militant groups affiliated or aligned with Al Qaeda, intelligence and counterterrorism officials in the region say.
Even more worrying, said a senior counterterrorism official, is that the level of "chatter" ? communications among people suspected of terrorism and their supporters ? has markedly increased since Mr. bin Laden's warning to Europe this month. The spike in chatter has given rise to acute worries that planning for another strike in Europe is advanced.
"Iraq dramatically strengthened their recruitment efforts," one
counterterrorism official said. He added that some mosques now display photos of American soldiers fighting in Iraq alongside bloody scenes of bombed out Iraqi neighborhoods. Detecting actual recruitments is almost impossible, he said, because it is typically done face to face.
And recruitment is paired with a compelling new strategy to bring the fight to Europe.
Members of Al Qaeda have "proven themselves to be extremely
opportunistic, and they have decided to try to split the Western
alliance," the official continued. "They are focusing their energies on attacking the big countries" ? the United States, Britain and Spain ? so as to "scare" the smaller states.
Some Muslim recruits are going to Iraq, counterterrorism officials in Europe say, but more are remaining home, possibly joining cells that could help with terror logistics or begin operations like the one that came to notice when the British police seized 1,200 pounds of ammonium nitrate, a key bomb ingredient, in late March, and arrested nine Pakistani-Britons, five of whom have been charged with trying to build a terrorist bomb.
Stoking that anger are some of the same fiery Islamic clerics who
preached violence and martyrdom before the Sept. 11 attacks.
On Friday, Abu Hamza, the cleric accused of tutoring Richard Reid before he tried to blow up a Paris-to-Miami jetliner with explosives hidden in his shoe, urged a crowd of 200 outside his former Finsbury Park mosque to embrace death and the "culture of martyrdom."
Though the British home secretary, David Blunkett, has sought to strip Abu Hamza of his British citizenship and deport him, the legal battle has dragged on for years while Abu Hamza keeps calling down the wrath of God.
Also this week, over Mr. Blunkett's vigorous objection, a 35-year-old Algerian held under emergency laws passed after Sept. 11 was released from Belmarsh Prison. The man, identified only as "G," suffered from severe mental illness, his lawyers told a special immigration appeals panel, which let him out of prison and put him under house arrest.
Mr. Blunkett insisted that that should not be the final judgment on a man already found by one court "to be a threat to life and liberty."
In an interview on the BBC over the weekend, Mr. Blunkett advocated a stronger deportation policy, initially focused on 12 foreign terror suspects held without charge since the Sept. 11 attacks.
Despite tougher antiterrorism laws, the police, prosecutors and
intelligence chiefs across Europe say they are struggling to contain the openly seditious speech of Islamic extremists, some of whom, they say, have been inciting young men to suicidal violence since the 1990's.
One chapter in Sheik Omar's lectures these days is "The Psyche of Muslims for Suicide Bombing."
The authorities say that laws to protect religious expression and civil liberties have the result of limiting what they can do to stop hateful speech. In the case of foreigners, they say they are often left to seek deportation, a lengthy and uncertain process subject to legal appeals, when the suspect can keep inciting attacks.
That leaves the authorities to resort to less effective means, such as mouse-trapping Islamic radicals with immigration violations in hopes of making a deportation case stick. "In many countries, the laws are liberal and it's not easy," an official said.
At a mosque in Geneva, an imam recently exhorted his followers to "impose the will of Islam on the godless society of the West."
"It was quite virulent," said a senior official with knowledge of the
sermon. "The imam was encouraging his followers to take over the godless society."
While such a sermon may be incitement, recruitment takes a more shadowy course, and is hard to detect, a senior antiterrorism official said.
"Believers are appealed to in the mosques, but the real conversations take place in restaurants or cafes or private apartments," the official said.
While some clerics, like Abu Qatada ? said to be the spiritual counselor of Mohamed Atta, who led the Sept. 11 hijacking team ? remain in prison in Britain without charge, others like Sheik Omar, leader of a movement called Al Muhajiroun, carry on a robust ideological campaign.
"There is no case against me," Sheik Omar said in an interview.
Referring to calls by members of Parliament that he be deported, he added, "but they are Jewish" and "they have been calling for that for years."
Among his ardent followers is Ishtiaq Alamgir, 24, who heads Al
Muhajiroun in Luton and calls himself Sayful Islam, the sword of Islam.
He says there are about 50 members here but exact numbers are secret.
Most days, he and a handful of his followers run a recruitment stand on Dunstable Road much to the chagrin of the Muslim elders of Luton.
Mainstream Muslims are outraged by the situation, saying the actions of a few are causing their communities to be singled out for surveillance and making the larger population distrustful of them.
Muhammad Sulaiman, a stalwart of the mainstream Central Mosque here, was penniless when he arrived from the Kashmiri frontier of Pakistan in 1956. He raised money to build the Central Mosque here and now leads a campaign to ban Al Muhajiroun radicals from the city's 10 mosques.
"This is show-off business," he says in accented English. "I don't want these kids in my mosque."
Other community leaders look to the government to do something, if only to help prevent the demonization of British Muslims, or "Islamophobia," as some here call it.
"I think these kids are being brainwashed by a few radical clerics," said Akhbar Dad Khan, another elder of the Central Mosque. He wants them prosecuted or deported. "We should be able to control this negativity," he said.
In Slough, Sheik Omar spent much of his time Thursday night regaling his young followers with the erotic delights of paradise ? sweet kisses and the pleasures of bathing with scores of women ? while he also preached the virtues of death in Islamic struggle as a ticket to paradise.
He spoke of terrorism as the new norm of cultural conflict, "the fashion of the 21st century," practiced as much by Tony Blair as by Al Qaeda.
"We may be caught up in the target as the people of Manhattan were," he told them.
And he warned Western leaders, "You may kill bin Laden, but the
phenomenon, you cannot kill it ? you cannot destroy it."
"Our Muslim brothers from abroad will come one day and conquer here and then we will live under Islam in dignity," he said.
Originally posted by Jimbo
Am I going to be standing next to you and a huge group of guys wearing Royal Robbins gear?
Can I wear a baggy shirt and jeans and hang out with my reporter friends? Do I get to hand out free medicine? Do I get to use my Arabic teacher's family as an intel network for 48 hours before I stand out in the street with you? I've never been in a foreign country with a bunch of people I can count on. I don't know how that all works.
I doubt highly I'd be in the middle of Baghdad in the first place, unless it was on a bet.
Your mission is very, very different than mine.
Got other things to do, actually "honey do's". I'll leave you with this for now...
"Problems are difficult...however they may seem."
"Solutions are easy...yet we never use them."
What would be your conclusion?
NousDefionsDoc
08-11-2004, 18:47
I see some top down (on the religious side) going on in that article and it looks like Islam is playing a role. Whatcha think Jimbo?:munchin
NousDefionsDoc
08-11-2004, 18:48
Originally posted by Guy
Got other things to do, actually "honey do's". I'll leave you with this for now...
"Problems are difficult...however they may seem."
"Solutions are easy...yet we never use them."
What would be your conclusion?
I agree, this could be a HUGE problem.:D
NDD:
Sageman (yeah, I know, I figured this was interesting nevertheless) predicted London (lucky me) as one of the next hotspots for AQ attacks.
Solid
NousDefionsDoc
08-11-2004, 19:01
Originally posted by Solid
NDD:
Sageman (yeah, I know, I figured this was interesting nevertheless) predicted London (lucky me) as one of the next hotspots for AQ attacks.
Solid
No good deed goes unpunished.;)
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
I see some top down (on the religious side) going on in that article and it looks like Islam is playing a role. Whatcha think Jimbo?:munchin
To respond to that I would have to split some more hairs (like a call to arms vs. recruiting for terrorism, rhetoric vs. deliberate action, agitation vs. action). If I did that I think I would be less welcome than now.
Originally posted by Jimbo
Also, when Muslims travel away from their homelands, they are often descriminated against or somehow made to feel unwelcome in their new home. (the fault for this I think lies with Islamic schools and many Islamic leaders who have done little to prepare their brethern to interact with other societies).
"It is in the nature of man to like what he is familiar with and in which he has been brought up, and that he fears anything alien. The plurality of religions and their mutual intolerance result from the fact that people remain faithful to the education they received."
-Maimonides (The guide for the Perplexed)
Originally posted by Jimbo
To respond to that I would have to split some more hairs (like a call to arms vs. recruiting for terrorism, rhetoric vs. deliberate action, agitation vs. action). If I did that I think I would be less welcome than now.
You can say what you want, you will still be welcomed.
Use your "physchological warfare and education" on the terrorist. I'm just here to accomodate their needs...
A quick ride to meet Allah and their virgins.:lifter
I have not forgotten 9/11. I'm a profiling MOFO...so whenever I fly. I'm damn sure thinking this...
All the article at the beginning of all this said was that terrorists do not present clinical psychological problems. Also, what is not stated in the article is that because they have rationalized what they are doing (because it is 'normal' to them), they will not display many of the tactical tip-offs that some 'experts' have said terrorists might; such as excessive sweating, looking nervous; dry mouth, that white crap in the corners of your mouth, etc...you just can't count on those as a tip off. Richard Reid was the exception and an idiot.
So, as long as you factor that into your profiling, happy hunting.
The Reaper
08-12-2004, 12:50
Originally posted by Jimbo
Richard Reid was the exception and an idiot.
It took a clinical study to tip you off to that?
I would have thought his appearance would have been enough.
I am with Guy on this, anybody acting squirrelly around me is going to get scrutinized, and probably challenged. If his responses do not track, he is going to get jacked up. If he wants to escalate, I plan to be one step ahead of him. Better tried by 12 than carried by six.
Muslims that do not want to be profiled should start challenging their brothers, providing intel, speaking out, and taking bad Muslims down themselves. As of yet, I have seen very little of that, if any. I find this conduct (or lack thereof) incriminating.
If American terrorists had killed 3000 Muslims, and taken out a significant symbol, like crashing a couple of large a/c into the shrines at Mecca and Medina, I would sure as hell tread lightly when traveling to their country, if I had to at all. If I was working there, I would have to consider getting the heck out ASAP.
Just my .02.
TR
The Reaper
08-12-2004, 12:55
Originally posted by Guy
I have not forgotten 9/11. I'm a profiling MOFO...so whenever I fly. I'm damn sure thinking this...
Guy, sorry, but on a lighter note, I had to put this one up too.
TR
Originally posted by Jimbo
All the article at the beginning of all this said was that terrorists do not present clinical psychological problems. Also, what is not stated in the article is that because they have rationalized what they are doing (because it is 'normal' to them), they will not display many of the tactical tip-offs that some 'experts' have said terrorists might; such as excessive sweating, looking nervous; dry mouth, that white crap in the corners of your mouth, etc...you just can't count on those as a tip off. Richard Reid was the exception and an idiot.
So, as long as you factor that into your profiling, happy hunting.
Listen and read carefully.... INSTINCT!
Which comes from...EXPERIENCE!
What "on the ground" experience do these people have?
Great discussion, but I'm done.
Originally posted by Jimbo
Great discussion, but I'm done.
Quit when the "internet" going gets tough. :rolleyes:
I'll post my speech/story about you XXXX who either talked or wrote about "how" shit should be done.
edited by NDD: If there's going to be name calling, clarify your statement or take it to PM please.