View Full Version : In Law Schools, Grades Go Up, Just Like That
And so it effin' goes...
Richard
In Law Schools, Grades Go Up, Just Like That
NYT, 21 June 2010
The goal is to make its students look more attractive in a competitive job market.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/22/business/22law.html?partner=rss&emc=rss
Grade inflation - not just for lawyers anymore. ;)
craigepo
06-22-2010, 08:12
I wish they would go back and inflate my law school grades. I might go from "dumbshit" to "oxygen thief".
They were discussing this at another forum I attend, a lawyer there said that this has actually been a problem in law schools for some thirty years now.
Not where I went to law school it wasn't. I remember one occassion after the final grades for a class in probate law (the legal equivalent of watching paint dry, imho) went up, a friend and I were celebrating by giving each other high fives. The dean was walking by and asked if we were so excited because we each received an "A". To which we responded, "Not even close, dean, but damn we passed". I would have happily accepted a little "grade bending" for that class.
To this day I almost break out in a cold sweat when someone asks a probate law question. :D
I wish they would go back and inflate my law school grades. I might go from "dumbshit" to "oxygen thief".
Judge, I think you and I would get along very well. :D
PedOncoDoc
06-22-2010, 08:35
On a related note, what are everyone's thoughts on special permissions for students persuing advanced professional degrees - particularly law and medical degrees?
I offended a few of my "fellow" students while I was in medical school for implying that no special arrangements should be made for students with a learning disability or language issues. I felt that if you wanted to be a professional in a field where lifelong learning is mandated and audited - you should demonstrate the ability to perform at the same level as your peers. I followed it up with, "They wouldn't give me a head start in a running race so I could pursue my dreams of being a professional sprinter in spite of not being graced with exceptional sprinting speed." It is also my opinion that a student should have demonstrated adequate mastery of the primary language where they expect to practice their profession in the pre-admission screening regardless of their primary language. I believe this to be especially true in professions where communication and language interpretation are vital.
This does not reflect my opinions about undergraduate degrees which I feel should be achievable in spite of learning/language disadvantages should appropriate support be provided.
Thoughts? :munchin
ETA: Our medical school was pass/fail for the classroom component which removed the possibility of grade inflation and also lead to a more cooperative learning environment (people shared resources knowing that it may not jeapordize their class rank.)
Have any law schools adopted a Go/NoGo grading system?
craigepo
06-22-2010, 09:32
On a related note, what are everyone's thoughts on special permissions for students persuing advanced professional degrees - particularly law and medical degrees?
I offended a few of my "fellow" students while I was in medical school for implying that no special arrangements should be made for students with a learning disability or language issues. I felt that if you wanted to be a professional in a field where lifelong learning is mandated and audited - you should demonstrate the ability to perform at the same level as your peers. I followed it up with, "They wouldn't give me a head start in a running race so I could pursue my dreams of being a professional sprinter in spite of not being graced with exceptional sprinting speed." It is also my opinion that a student should have demonstrated adequate mastery of the primary language where they expect to practice their profession in the pre-admission screening regardless of their primary language. I believe this to be especially true in professions where communication and language interpretation are vital.
This does not reflect my opinions about undergraduate degrees which I feel should be achievable in spite of learning/language disadvantages should appropriate support be provided.
Thoughts? :munchin
Generally agree. If you are getting a professional certification, the folks who pay you deserve to receive professional services.
I had a friend in law school who figured out after the first semester that he was dyslexic(he told me his problem, and I said "Charles, dumbass, you're dyslexic). The dean allowed him to get the final one hour before everybody else, all he could do is read, then he had the same three hours to finish the test that everybody else had. (for those that don't know, 90% of law school classes are graded based upon one comprehensive final exam).
We had a couple of foreign students in law school. The thought was that they were allowed in, but would return home to practice law.
A family practice doc here in town attended medical school in Rome(he is not Italian). He says that every class, test, lecture was conducted in Italian, and he had to learn Italian to get through school. I can't imagine taking any class, especially law/medicine classes, in a different language.
I wonder if, in the future, part of the US economy's exports will be the exportation of education/educated people.
PedOncoDoc
06-22-2010, 09:42
I wonder if, in the future, part of the US economy's exports will be the exportation of education/educated people.
This is already happening. If you've been to any scientific PhD classes or research labs it would be quite apparent that a majority of the students/doctoral research fellows are foreign with a heavy respresentation of Asian students, particularly the Chinese.
China is export students here for advanced degrees and education and many are then returning to China to do research.
It's a fairly common practice for the female students to have children here then send the children back to China to be raised by grandparents. In the 2 years I've been at my institution I have provided care to 2 children born in the US to Chinese national post-graduate students brought back here from China for medical care after being diagnosed with cancers. Their grandparents got to tag along so the mothers could focus on their studies. The medical bills, unfortunately, aren't sent to China.
It's unfortunate that these children are getting sick, but I also believe that bringing the children (and grandparents) back for medical care is an abuse of the system.
(Rant off; I apologize for the hijack.)
On a related note, what are everyone's thoughts on special permissions for students persuing advanced professional degrees - particularly law and medical degrees?
...
This does not reflect my opinions about undergraduate degrees which I feel should be achievable in spite of learning/language disadvantages should appropriate support be provided.
Thoughts? :munchin
I agree completely on the professional degrees.
With all due respect, our views seem to differ on undergraduate degrees. Inflating grades in undergraduate classes will lead to lowered standards for admissions to graduate degrees, including the professional degrees. If students don't have adequate preparation - but give the appearance of preparation through their grades - then less capable students will be admitted to the various graduate programs, and all else will follow.
I'll give an example. I taught a course in microcomputers - it had been dumbed down to a considerable extent before I ever came on the scene. One assignment required preparation of an Excel spreadsheet. It was about 10 cells vertically, and 5 horizontally. The math concepts included the 4 basics - addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division.
In preparing the students for the assignment, I went through every portion in class, making sure to answer questions along the way. I filled in every formula. Explained why they were fashioned as they were. Gave the students time to make notes, and even to simply copy the formulas. There was nothing to prevent them from simply filing in the spreadsheet and making a 100%.
In addition, I provided a web page with most (but not quite all!) of the formulas available. All they had to do was copy and paste, fill down, or fill right.
So...what happens? Two students turn in work that looks beautiful. Absolutely gorgeous. And yet...oddly enough...even though they got the correct answers...their formulas were complete nonsense. Turns out, they cheated. Their work was a fake, done in Word. Then they copied the assignment, and each turned it in as original work. The most I could do was to decline to give them a grade.
Anyone want one of those students as their physician? Or their defense counsel?
Neither was disabled, BTW.
So, let's consider students who are deaf. Ever try to teach programming concepts to the deaf? With a couple translators using ASL? Oh, granted, they can spell out the words - but the student is at an horrific disadvantage. If one boosts their grades for tests and assignments, one simply defers the problem. A less-than-competent programmer comes out the other end. And employers look elsewhere.
By all means, give those who need tutoring, translators, and other such aids the help they need. But I think grade inflation is as insidious...and, ultimately, as deadly....as certain dread diseases. Please don't turn a blind eye to inflation of undergraduate grades.
craigepo
06-22-2010, 10:57
I tell every kid that talks to me about law school, that it is much harder to get into law school than it is to pass. Generally, once you're in law school, if you put in any work at all, you will get a "C". It seems that getting accepted is the hard part. Bar exam----different matter.
I noticed that many of the law schools discussed in the article were in relatively-liberal areas. I have doubts that this trend would hold in the more conservative states/schools. It seems that in those schools, good grades are like many graders for an Expert Infantryman's Badge "I got mine, you're screwed".
Interestingly, there was theory that women had an upper-hand in law school, due to having better handwriting. The theory was based upon the premise that most/all law school exams were hand-written essays, and that women's handwriting was better, thus easier to read, thus better grades. Purely anecdotal, and of course all generalizations are false.
Roguish Lawyer
06-22-2010, 11:20
Firms look at class rank, not grade point average.
PedOncoDoc
06-22-2010, 11:39
With all due respect, our views seem to differ on undergraduate degrees. Inflating grades in undergraduate classes will lead to lowered standards for admissions to graduate degrees, including the professional degrees. If students don't have adequate preparation - but give the appearance of preparation through their grades - then less capable students will be admitted to the various graduate programs, and all else will follow.
By all means, give those who need tutoring, translators, and other such aids the help they need. But I think grade inflation is as insidious...and, ultimately, as deadly....as certain dread diseases. Please don't turn a blind eye to inflation of undergraduate grades.
I never made mention of supporting grade inflation - which I 100% do not. In contrast to my views on professional degrees, I merely feel it is a non-issue to give appropriate assistance to people with learning/language disabilities who are pursuing undergradute degrees. I apologize if that did not come through in my prior post.
Remember sports for kids, everybody is a winner no one loses everyone gets a trophy. Remember grades were too stressful, it's wrong to tell a students they're failing. Everyone is successful and great.
Seems new rules for school, not just professional schools, is in line with that thinking. How about this.
NY passes students who get wrong answers on tests
By CARL CAMPANILE and SUSAN EDELMAN
Last Updated: 11:32 AM, June 6, 2010
Posted: 1:40 AM, June 6, 2010
When does 2 + 2 = 5?
When you're taking the state math test.
Despite promises that the exams -- which determine whether students advance to the next grade -- would not be dumbed down this year, students got "partial credit" for wrong answers after failing to correctly add, subtract, multiply and divide. Some got credit for no answer at all.
"They were giving credit for blatantly wrong things," said an outraged Brooklyn teacher who was among those hired to score the fourth-grade test.
State education officials had vowed to "strengthen" and "increase the rigor" of both the questions and the scoring when about 1.2 million kids in grades 3 to 8 -- including 450,000 in New York City -- took English exams in April and math exams last month.
But scoring guides obtained by The Post reveal that kids get half-credit or more for showing fragments of work related to the problem -- even if they screw up the calculations or leave the answer blank.
Examples in the fourth-grade scoring guide include:
* A kid who answers that a 2-foot-long skateboard is 48 inches long gets half-credit for adding 24 and 24 instead of the correct 12 plus 12.
Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/how_do_you_pass_ny_school_tests_tCqFKo40FhcwkO5SoP YWRI
Also same article, what to do to get more kids to pass, educate... wait no, lower the standards.
A year ago, Chancellor Joel Klein boasted that the city was making "dramatic progress" when 82 percent of city students passed the state math test and 69 percent passed in English, up sharply from 2002. And fewer kids have been left back in recent years.
What officials didn't reveal was that the number of points needed to pass proficiency levels has, in most cases, steadily dropped.
Dozer523
06-22-2010, 13:29
I'm a huge fan of grade inflation.
When I went back to my alma mater -- cuz they graduated me once, already. THEY didn't care then that I hardly went to class; never even bough the books (after I noticed Freshman year that I didn't get much for them when I sold them - they were still in the plastic wrap); only went to the library to read magazines; asked odd questions; brought a case of beer to finals; but took, recorded, borrowed copious notes. And the ROTC Scholarship check was always on time.
Grade Inflation was my Saving Grace when I was getting my teaching credentials -- I made President's List. I'd never even heard of that -- BTW it's way better then Dean's List.
All I did different was go to class; bought he books I needed second semester mid-way through first semester and had them all highlighted/margine-noted before class started; my wife thought the Librarian was my mistress; I answered all the odd questions (from personal experience); brought a bottle of single malt when I visited my male Profs and a nice chardonnay for the lady Profs; never loaned my noted to anyone. And the Student Loan money was always on time. Oh, when we did Group Projects I tore team-mates new a$$holes if they didn't work (IAW My Definition). One Prof had never heard the term "Oxygen Thief" let alone seen it on a formal document. That was the first time I had grade Inflation explained to me -- had something to do with the school costing $20,000 . . . (O2- got a "B" I got an "A" She also re-arranged her schedule when we started off in the same class-- I made it it a point to sit near her.)
I have to admit I've committed "Post Inflation" I never really did take a single Malt with me to visit a Prof.
I have a former student who is one of the most dyslexic students we ever had. He graduated WashU (St Louis) and WashU Law; petitioned for extended time for the NY Bar Exam, got it, and passed the bar on his first attempt in 2003; was a Congressional aide for a couple of years, and is now a defense litigation attorney with a major firm in NYC. He is one of the hardest working and committed people I ever met - and it takes him many times longer to read/review/prepare any documents when compared to his peers. However - because he is so meticulously thorough in his reading - nothing gets by him and he is very successful as an attorney.
And so it goes...;)
Richard's $.02 :munchin