View Full Version : Israeli Commandos Attack Gaza Aid Convoy
incarcerated
05-31-2010, 00:55
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703703704575277632709673018.html?m od=googlenews_wsj
Israeli Commandos Attack Gaza Aid Convoy
MIDDLE EAST NEWS
MAY 31, 2010, 2:34 A.M. ET
Israeli commandos on Monday stormed six ships carrying hundreds of pro-Palestinian activists on an aid mission to the blockaded Gaza Strip, setting off fierce battles in which at least four people were killed and dozens were wounded.
There were conflicting accounts of what happened.
The Israeli military said at least four pro-Palestinian activists were killed after attacking naval commandos with knives and clubs as they boarded the six vessels. It said soldiers opened fire after a protester grabbed a weapon from one of the commandos. "The people on the boats were very, very violent toward the soldiers," said Israeli military spokeswoman Lt. Col. Avital Leibovich.
The army said dozens of people were wounded, both soldiers and activists, and it was evacuating the casualties from the Mediterranean by helicopter.
Al-Jazeera, meanwhile, reported by telephone from the Turkish ship leading the flotilla that Israeli navy forces fired at the ship and boarded it, wounding the captain.
The Turkish Foreign Ministry, citing "preliminary information," said at least two people were killed and more than 30 wounded. Turkey's NTV, which had a reporter on board one of the ships, also said two were killed.
NTV showed activists beating one Israeli soldier with sticks as he rappelled from a helicopter onto one of the boats.
A Turkish website showed video of pandemonium on board one of the ships, with activists in orange life jackets running around as some tried to help an activist apparently unconscious on the deck. The site also showed video of an Israeli helicopter flying overhead and Israeli warships nearby.
There were no details on the identities of the casualties, or on the conditions of some of the more prominent people on board, including a Nobel peace laureate and an elderly Holocaust survivor. Satellite phones on board the ships were turned off, and communication with a small group of reporters embedded with the Israeli military was blocked.
In Turkey, which had unofficially supported the aid mission, news of the attack sparked violent protests. Police blocked dozens of stone-throwing protesters who tried to storm the Israeli consulate in Istanbul.
The Turkish Foreign Ministry condemned the Israeli raid and said it was summoning the Israeli ambassador for an "urgent explanation." It says Israel violated international law and will suffer consequences. The Israeli military denied its forces attacked the boats, saying soldiers were under orders only to use fire if their lives were in danger.
Some 700 pro-Palestinian activists were on the boats, including 1976 Nobel Peace Prize laureate Mairead Corrigan Maguire of Northern Ireland, European legislators and Holocaust survivor Hedy Epstein, 85....
After nightfall Sunday, three Israeli navy missile boats left their base in Haifa, steaming out to sea to confront the ships. Two hours later, Israel Radio broadcast a recording of one of the missile boats warning the flotilla not to approach Gaza. "If you ignore this order and enter the blockaded area, the Israeli navy will be forced to take all the necessary measures in order to enforce this blockade," the radio message continued....
Israel rejects claims of a humanitarian crisis in Gaza, saying it allows more than enough food and medicine into the territory. The Israelis also point to the bustling smuggling industry along Gaza's southern border with Egypt, which has managed to bring consumer goods, gasoline and livestock into the seaside strip.
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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/7789117/At-least-16-dead-as-Israeli-troops-storm-Gaza-aid-flotilla.html
At least 16 dead as Israeli troops storm Gaza aid flotilla
By Richard Spencer, Middle East Correspondent and Matthew Kalman in Jerusalem
Published: 7:21AM BST 31 May 2010
Fighting broke out between the activists and the masked Israeli troops, who rappelled on to deck from helicopters before dawn.
A spokesman for the flotilla, Greta Berlin, said she had been told that ten people had been killed and dozens wounded, accusing Israeli troops of indiscriminately shooting at "unarmed civilians". But an Israeli radio station said that between 14 and 16 were dead in a continuing operation....
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http://www.themedialine.org/news/news_detail.asp?NewsID=28979
....Israeli army Spokesman Brig.-Gen. Avi Beneyahu said that forces along Israel’s border were on alert against possible rocket attacks from Lebanon and Gaza, as well as potential violence in the West Bank and east Jerusalem.
Meanwhile, Israel Police have begun deploying across the country, particularly in areas of Israeli Arab towns, to head off potential rioting by sympathizers with the flotilla.
“Police are deploying in areas across the country in order to prevent disturbances from taking place,” said Mickey Rosenfeld, spokesman for Israel Police.
The commandos assaulted the boats, climbing aboard from rafts and dropping from helicopters.
The army said the activists attacked soldiers with knifes, clubs and a rifle snatched from an Israeli commando, injuring four Israeli servicemen. The injured were all being transported to Israel for treatment.
“Every serviceman encountered violent reaction," Beneyahu said. "Let’s say they didn’t look like peace activists.”....
SparseCandy
05-31-2010, 07:10
I just don't understand all the people who are against Israel's actions on this.
Israel offered to allow the aid to go through their port and warned the flotilla several times that they would not allow them to break the blockade. The flotilla ignored repeated warnings and requests to turn back or head to the port. Why would anyone expect Israel to allow Hamas (an organization that has repeatedly, publicly vowed to wipe israel from the face of the earth as I understand it) to receive 6 ships worth of goods unchecked by Iraeli forces?
When Israel's troops finally boarded the ship, they were attacked. What in the world do people expect will happen when they attack armed soldiers with knives and axes? Why is it so surprising that the soliders defended themselves?
I actually read one commentary where the person talking said the soldiers should have used rubber bullets. Who expects that? They are soldiers, not police officers. And even if they were police and not military, why is there a belief that it is wrong to use lethal force against someone who is trying to kill you with a knife simply because that person claims to be a civillian? Don't you stop being an innocent civillian once you attack a solider?
I just don't get it.
The antihero
05-31-2010, 10:28
Video of the assault (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bU12KW-XyZE).
The Reaper
05-31-2010, 10:46
I wonder how many rockets, weapons, and ammo were on those "relief" ships.
And the idiots do not even realize they are tools for the enemy.
TR
ReefBlue
05-31-2010, 11:26
A couple videos from the deck of the target vessel.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhgt7KY1iQs
This one is the same initial footage, but only about 20 seconds overall.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8zVD6C3C1k
Dragbag036
05-31-2010, 11:37
I wonder how many rockets, weapons, and ammo were on those "relief" ships.
And the idiots do not even realize they are tools for the enemy.
TR
TR, I was thinking the exact thoughts when I saw the video. :confused:
Even if they do find any weapons, the IHH will claim that it was planted by Israel and the media will eat it up.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYjkLUcbJWo&feature=player_embedded&has_verified=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYjkLUcbJWo&feature=player_embedded&has_verified=1
Sure an odd way to held the IDF get their footing on the deck.
It looked as if the Peace Protesters were a bit violent.
Easy to be brave as the first guy or two is coming off the rope.
Noticed things dropped off real quick as more IDF troops hit the deck.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYjkLUcbJWo&feature=player_embedded&has_verified=1
Maybe its just me......but at 50 seconds + are those Israelis holding paintball guns ????
Maybe its just me......but at 50 seconds + are those Israelis holding paintball guns ????
PepperBalls?
Pat
mojaveman
05-31-2010, 14:54
Monday morning quarterback...
Ok, how about dropping some CS or rubber ball grenades before hitting the deck? The welcoming party didn't look very hospitable. In the video it looked like it was already light but if circumstances would have permited how about boarding just before dawn when most of the people would have been asleep?
Maybe its just me......but at 50 seconds + are those Israelis holding paintball guns ????
Well spotted!!!!
"Officials estimated that passengers will show slight resistance, and possibly minor violence; for that reason, the operation’s commander decided to bring the helicopter directly above the top deck. The first rope that soldiers used in order to descend down to the ship was wrested away by activists, most of them Turks, and tied to an antenna with the hopes of bringing the chopper down. However, Flotilla 13 fighters decided to carry on.
Navy commandoes slid down to the vessel one by one, yet then the unexpected occurred: The passengers that awaited them on the deck pulled out bats, clubs, and slingshots with glass marbles, assaulting each soldier as he disembarked. The fighters were nabbed one by one and were beaten up badly, yet they attempted to fight back.
However, to their misfortune, they were only equipped with paintball rifles used to disperse minor protests, such as the ones held in Bilin. The paintballs obviously made no impression on the activists, who kept on beating the troops up and even attempted to wrest away their weapons.
One soldier who came to the aid of a comrade was captured by the rioters and sustained severe blows. The commandoes were equipped with handguns but were told they should only use them in the face of life-threatening situations. When they came down from the chopper, they kept on shouting to each other “don’t shoot, don’t shoot,” even though they sustained numerous blows..."
Full report here: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3896796,00.html
http://www.savethechildren.net/alliance/what_we_do/emergencies/gaza/
For more than two years the blockade of the Gaza Strip has caused a protracted human dignity crisis that is reflected in almost every aspect of daily life: over 140,000 people, willing and able to work, are currently unemployed with over a million living in poverty and reliant on food aid. Most of the 6,420 families whose homes were destroyed or severely damaged during the last military offensive are still displaced due to the ongoing ban on the entry of construction materials. In the extreme summer heat in Gaza, almost no one has continuous electricity supply to operate refrigerators or air conditioning, and some people still have no access electricity at all. Patients requiring specialized medical treatment unavailable in Gaza must overcome a long and arduous permit processing system, resulting in unnecessary anguish and stress.
This blockade is collectively punishing the entire Gazan population. The UN, the ICRC, many states and humanitarian organizations, have repeatedly urged the Government of Israel to remove the restrictions on Gaza’s borders as well as to allow free access to agricultural areas within Gaza and to fishing areas in Gaza’s territorial waters. These are the urgent first steps needed to start the reconstruction of homes and infrastructure, the revival of the economy, and the restoration of human dignity in Gaza.
Can probably assume that this was something in the lines of a last resort from the pro palestinians.
Also its pretty clear the activists had prepared for the boarding, so why would they use whatever weapons they found available? (chairs, ironbars, clubs etc)
If they had stores of "proper" weapons with them...
All in all im kind of doubtful to if we'll ever see a true and unbiased version of this.
There is another ship heading towards Gaza. It is called the "Rachel Corrie".
http://aliabunimah.posterous.com/irish-boat-the-mv-rachel-corrie-proceeding-to
...Can probably assume that this was something in the lines of a last resort fr...om the pro palestinians.......
You do know that Israel can only blockade three sides of Gaza.
The 4th side borders a Muslim country.
It's called propaganda. And the uninformed buys it.
craigepo
05-31-2010, 20:02
When the Israelis say "blockade", they mean "blockade".
I am sitting here, watching the scene from "Band of Brothers" where the 101st Airborne is liberating a concentration camp. It occurs to me that Israel has learned, the hard way, to play by the rules handed down by Joshua and Moses.
They are, for the umpteenth time in their existence, surrounded by enemies bent on their destruction, and their allies are "fair-weather friends" at best.
IMO, I say more power to 'em.
If the 'peace' activists were so concerned about getting aid to the people, why didn't they heed the request of the Navy and dock in Ashdod first for a security inspection?
Navy's request: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKOmLP4yHb4&feature=related
Outright refusal = provocation, IMHO.
:munchin
incarcerated
06-01-2010, 01:05
Why does this surprise me?
Bitter experience taught me long ago that there is no end to the shame that my fellow Californians will cause me…
http://www.ktvu.com/news/23751134/detail.html
Wife Waits To Hear From Husband Captured In Israeli Raid
By Kevin L. Jones
Posted: 8:52 pm PDT May 31, 2010
EL CERRITO, Calif. -
….Across the San Francisco Bay in El Cerrito, the wife of one activist who was on a ship that was taken over by Israeli troops, waited for more news on the status of her husband.
Betty Larudee’s husband Paul is one of at least four people from the Bay Area who were part of the flotilla bringing aid to Gaza.
Larudee said she continually checks for any word on her husband and the rest of the Pro-Palestinian supporters on the six ships involved in the flotilla. No Americans were killed.
She said that Paul, a 64-year-old piano tuner, cares deeply about the people living in Gaza and wanted to help bring them food, medicine and concrete for building. She said the mission was about peace, not violence.
“He would sacrifice his life if he had to. That’s the kind of person Paul is,” said Larudee.“[Paul and the others] feel as humanitarians they have to reach Gaza and give them tons of food and supplies they needed.”
….As for the Bay Area activists on the ships, the Israelis said they will have the option of going home voluntarily or face deportation.
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http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2010/05/25/fancy-restaurants-and-olympic-size-pools-what-the-media-won%E2%80%99t-report-about-gaza/
Fancy restaurants and Olympic-size pools: What the media won’t report about Gaza
Special to the National Post May 25, 2010 – 9:44 am
By Tom Gross
In recent days, the international media, particularly in Europe and the Mideast, has been full of stories about “activist boats sailing to Gaza carrying desperately-needed humanitarian aid and building materials.”
The BBC World Service even led its world news broadcasts with this story at one point over the weekend. (The BBC yesterday boasted that its global news audience has now risen to 220 million persons a week, making it by far the biggest news broadcaster in the world.)
Indeed the BBC and other prominent Western media regularly lead their viewers and readers astray with accounts of a non-existent “mass humanitarian catastrophe” in Gaza.
What they won’t tell you about are the fancy new restaurants and swimming pools of Gaza, or about the wind surfing competitions on Gaza beaches, or the Strip’s crowded shops and markets. Many Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza live a middle class (and in some cases an upper class) lifestyle that western journalists refuse to report on because it doesn’t fit with the simplistic story they were sent to write.
Here, courtesy of the Palestinian Ma’an news agency, is a report on Gaza’s new Olympic-sized swimming pool . (Most Israeli towns don’t have Olympic-size swimming pools. One wonders how an area that claims to be starved of water and building materials and depends on humanitarian aid builds an Olympic size swimming pool and creates a luxury lifestyle for some while others are forced to live in abject poverty as political pawn refugees?)
If you pop into the Roots Club in Gaza, according to the Lonely Planet guidebook, you can “dine on steak au poivre and chicken cordon bleu”.
The restaurant’s website in Arabic gives a window into middle class dining and the lifestyle of Hamas officials in Gaza. And here it is in English, for all the journalists, UN types and NGO staff who regularly frequent this and other nice Gaza restaurants (but don’t tell their readers about them).
And here is a promotional video of the club restaurant . In case anyone doubts the authenticity of this video, I just called the club in Gaza City and had a nice chat with the manager who proudly confirmed business is booming and many Palestinians and international guests are dining there.
In a piece for The Wall Street Journal last year, I documented the “after effects” of a previous “emergency Gaza boat flotilla,” when the arrivals were seen afterwards purchasing souvenirs in well-stocked shops. (You can also scroll down here for more pictures of Gaza’s “impoverished” shops.)
But the mainstream liberal international media won’t report on any of this. Playing the manipulative game of the BBC is easy: if we had their vast taxpayer funded resources, we too could produce reports about parts of London, Manchester and Glasgow and make it look as though there is a humanitarian catastrophe throughout the UK. We could produce the same effect by selectively filming seedy parts of Paris and Rome and New York and Los Angeles too.
Of course there is poverty in Gaza. There is poverty in parts of Israel too. (When was the last time a foreign journalist based in Israel left the pampered lounge bars and restaurants of the King David and American Colony hotels in Jerusalem and went to check out the slum-like areas of southern Tel Aviv? Or the hard-hit Negev towns of Netivot or Rahat?)
But the way that many prominent Western news media are deliberately misleading global audiences and systematically creating the false impression that people are somehow starving in Gaza, and that it is all Israel’s fault, can only serve to increase hatred for the Jewish state – which one suspects was the goal of many of the editors and reporters involved in the first place.
National Post
Tom Gross is a former Middle East correspondent for the London Sunday Telegraph and the New York Daily News.
If you pop into the Roots Club in Gaza, according to the Lonely Planet guidebook, you can “dine on steak au poivre and chicken cordon bleu”.
The restaurant’s website in Arabic gives a window into middle class dining and the lifestyle of Hamas officials in Gaza. And here it is in English...
http://www.rootsclub.ps/index.php
and the guestbook...
http://www.rootsclub.ps/gbook.php
"Very glad to see things in Gaza are not as bad as they say on TV. Menu seems to be full of food. Ahmad - UK"
:munchin
There is another ship heading towards Gaza. It is called the "Rachel Corrie".
http://aliabunimah.posterous.com/irish-boat-the-mv-rachel-corrie-proceeding-to
That's part of a flotilla of 3 ships that a malaysian NGO bought recently. The prime minister of malaysia's wife helped raise funds to buy all 3 ships and they were behind schedule as they had mechanical problems.
NGO is called" Perdana Global Peace Organisation and is headed by former prime minister Mahathir.
You do know that Israel can only blockade three sides of Gaza.
The 4th side borders a Muslim country.
It's called propaganda. And the uninformed buys it.
The border beetween Egypt and Gaza is closed, Hamas controls one side and Egypt wont open the border as this would mean they recognise Hamas etc...
Smuggling tunnels im guessing are not viable for large weaponry and building material so they have to transport it above ground.
Israel only allows a bare minimum to be brought into Gaza, about a quarter of the pre-blockade flow, meaning if the flotilla had taken in at ashdod they would also lose a large part of what they were carrying.
Egypt has as i mentioned closed the border and are also constructing an underground steelwall to disrupt smuggling underground.
I'm not buying anything, im just not taking sides in a conflict where all the information i get is through media.
The border beetween Egypt and Gaza is closed, Hamas controls one side and Egypt wont open the border as this would mean they recognise Hamas etc...
Smuggling tunnels im guessing are not viable for large weaponry and building material so they have to transport it above ground.
Israel only allows a bare minimum to be brought into Gaza, about a quarter of the pre-blockade flow, meaning if the flotilla had taken in at ashdod they would also lose a large part of what they were carrying.
Egypt has as i mentioned closed the border and are also constructing an underground steelwall to disrupt smuggling underground.
I'm not buying anything, im just not taking sides in a conflict where all the information i get is through media.
If you have been following the news, Egypt have opened the border now unconditionally.
Verily, Donald Hickey was correct to label the War of 1812 a forgotten conflict.
The border beetween Egypt and Gaza is closed, Hamas controls one side and Egypt wont open the border as this would mean they recognise Hamas etc..........
It makes no difference if the border with Egypt and Gaza is open or closed. It is a border that is run by two Muslim Governments.
So either Egypt is/was aiding Israel in the blockade or it is not..........
But the point is Israel can not "blockade" Gaza by it's own darn self.
As with everything - it's all propaganda.
craigepo
06-01-2010, 09:14
By George Friedman
On Sunday, Israeli naval forces intercepted the ships of a Turkish nongovernmental organization (NGO) delivering humanitarian supplies to Gaza. Israel had demanded that the vessels not go directly to Gaza but instead dock in Israeli ports, where the supplies would be offloaded and delivered to Gaza. The Turkish NGO refused, insisting on going directly to Gaza. Gunfire ensued when Israeli naval personnel boarded one of the vessels, and a significant number of the passengers and crew on the ship were killed or wounded.
Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister Danny Ayalon charged that the mission was simply an attempt to provoke the Israelis. That was certainly the case. The mission was designed to demonstrate that the Israelis were unreasonable and brutal. The hope was that Israel would be provoked to extreme action, further alienating Israel from the global community and possibly driving a wedge between Israel and the United States. The operation’s planners also hoped this would trigger a political crisis in Israel.
A logical Israeli response would have been avoiding falling into the provocation trap and suffering the political repercussions the Turkish NGO was trying to trigger. Instead, the Israelis decided to make a show of force. The Israelis appear to have reasoned that backing down would demonstrate weakness and encourage further flotillas to Gaza, unraveling the Israeli position vis-à-vis Hamas. In this thinking, a violent interception was a superior strategy to accommodation regardless of political consequences. Thus, the Israelis accepted the bait and were provoked.
The ‘Exodus’ Scenario
In the 1950s, an author named Leon Uris published a book called “Exodus.” Later made into a major motion picture, Exodus told the story of a Zionist provocation against the British. In the wake of World War II, the British — who controlled Palestine, as it was then known — maintained limits on Jewish immigration there. Would-be immigrants captured trying to run the blockade were detained in camps in Cyprus. In the book and movie, Zionists planned a propaganda exercise involving a breakout of Jews — mostly children — from the camp, who would then board a ship renamed the Exodus. When the Royal Navy intercepted the ship, the passengers would mount a hunger strike. The goal was to portray the British as brutes finishing the work of the Nazis. The image of children potentially dying of hunger would force the British to permit the ship to go to Palestine, to reconsider British policy on immigration, and ultimately to decide to abandon Palestine and turn the matter over to the United Nations.
There was in fact a ship called Exodus, but the affair did not play out precisely as portrayed by Uris, who used an amalgam of incidents to display the propaganda war waged by the Jews. Those carrying out this war had two goals. The first was to create sympathy in Britain and throughout the world for Jews who, just a couple of years after German concentration camps, were now being held in British camps. Second, they sought to portray their struggle as being against the British. The British were portrayed as continuing Nazi policies toward the Jews in order to maintain their empire. The Jews were portrayed as anti-imperialists, fighting the British much as the Americans had.
It was a brilliant strategy. By focusing on Jewish victimhood and on the British, the Zionists defined the battle as being against the British, with the Arabs playing the role of people trying to create the second phase of the Holocaust. The British were portrayed as pro-Arab for economic and imperial reasons, indifferent at best to the survivors of the Holocaust. Rather than restraining the Arabs, the British were arming them. The goal was not to vilify the Arabs but to villify the British, and to position the Jews with other nationalist groups whether in India or Egypt rising against the British.
The precise truth or falsehood of this portrayal didn’t particularly matter. For most of the world, the Palestine issue was poorly understood and not a matter of immediate concern. The Zionists intended to shape the perceptions of a global public with limited interest in or understanding of the issues, filling in the blanks with their own narrative. And they succeeded.
The success was rooted in a political reality. Where knowledge is limited, and the desire to learn the complex reality doesn’t exist, public opinion can be shaped by whoever generates the most powerful symbols. And on a matter of only tangential interest, governments tend to follow their publics’ wishes, however they originate. There is little to be gained for governments in resisting public opinion and much to be gained by giving in. By shaping the battlefield of public perception, it is thus possible to get governments to change positions.
In this way, the Zionists’ ability to shape global public perceptions of what was happening in Palestine — to demonize the British and turn the question of Palestine into a Jewish-British issue — shaped the political decisions of a range of governments. It was not the truth or falsehood of the narrative that mattered. What mattered was the ability to identify the victim and victimizer such that global opinion caused both London and governments not directly involved in the issue to adopt political stances advantageous to the Zionists. It is in this context that we need to view the Turkish flotilla.
The Turkish Flotilla to Gaza
The Palestinians have long argued that they are the victims of Israel, an invention of British and American imperialism. Since 1967, they have focused not so much on the existence of the state of Israel (at least in messages geared toward the West) as on the oppression of Palestinians in the occupied territories. Since the split between Hamas and Fatah and the Gaza War, the focus has been on the plight of the citizens of Gaza, who have been portrayed as the dispossessed victims of Israeli violence.
The bid to shape global perceptions by portraying the Palestinians as victims of Israel was the first prong of a longtime two-part campaign. The second part of this campaign involved armed resistance against the Israelis. The way this resistance was carried out, from airplane hijackings to stone-throwing children to suicide bombers, interfered with the first part of the campaign, however. The Israelis could point to suicide bombings or the use of children against soldiers as symbols of Palestinian inhumanity. This in turn was used to justify conditions in Gaza. While the Palestinians had made significant inroads in placing Israel on the defensive in global public opinion, they thus consistently gave the Israelis the opportunity to turn the tables. And this is where the flotilla comes in.
The Turkish flotilla aimed to replicate the Exodus story or, more precisely, to define the global image of Israel in the same way the Zionists defined the image that they wanted to project. As with the Zionist portrayal of the situation in 1947, the Gaza situation is far more complicated than as portrayed by the Palestinians. The moral question is also far more ambiguous. But as in 1947, when the Zionist portrayal was not intended to be a scholarly analysis of the situation but a political weapon designed to define perceptions, the Turkish flotilla was not designed to carry out a moral inquest.
Instead, the flotilla was designed to achieve two ends. The first is to divide Israel and Western governments by shifting public opinion against Israel. The second is to create a political crisis inside Israel between those who feel that Israel’s increasing isolation over the Gaza issue is dangerous versus those who think any weakening of resolve is dangerous.
continued..
craigepo
06-01-2010, 09:15
The Geopolitical Fallout for Israel
It is vital that the Israelis succeed in portraying the flotilla as an extremist plot. Whether extremist or not, the plot has generated an image of Israel quite damaging to Israeli political interests. Israel is increasingly isolated internationally, with heavy pressure on its relationship with Europe and the United States.
In all of these countries, politicians are extremely sensitive to public opinion. It is difficult to imagine circumstances under which public opinion will see Israel as the victim. The general response in the Western public is likely to be that the Israelis probably should have allowed the ships to go to Gaza and offload rather than to precipitate bloodshed. Israel’s enemies will fan these flames by arguing that the Israelis prefer bloodshed to reasonable accommodation. And as Western public opinion shifts against Israel, Western political leaders will track with this shift.
The incident also wrecks Israeli relations with Turkey, historically an Israeli ally in the Muslim world with longstanding military cooperation with Israel. The Turkish government undoubtedly has wanted to move away from this relationship, but it faced resistance within the Turkish military and among secularists. The new Israeli action makes a break with Israel easy, and indeed almost necessary for Ankara.
With roughly the population of Houston, Texas, Israel is just not large enough to withstand extended isolation, meaning this event has profound geopolitical implications.
Public opinion matters where issues are not of fundamental interest to a nation. Israel is not a fundamental interest to other nations. The ability to generate public antipathy to Israel can therefore reshape Israeli relations with countries critical to Israel. For example, a redefinition of U.S.-Israeli relations will have much less effect on the United States than on Israel. The Obama administration, already irritated by the Israelis, might now see a shift in U.S. public opinion that will open the way to a new U.S.-Israeli relationship disadvantageous to Israel.
The Israelis will argue that this is all unfair, as they were provoked. Like the British, they seem to think that the issue is whose logic is correct. But the issue actually is, whose logic will be heard? As with a tank battle or an airstrike, this sort of warfare has nothing to do with fairness. It has to do with controlling public perception and using that public perception to shape foreign policy around the world. In this case, the issue will be whether the deaths were necessary. The Israeli argument of provocation will have limited traction.
Internationally, there is little doubt that the incident will generate a firestorm. Certainly, Turkey will break cooperation with Israel. Opinion in Europe will likely harden. And public opinion in the United States — by far the most important in the equation — might shift to a “plague-on-both-your-houses” position.
While the international reaction is predictable, the interesting question is whether this evolution will cause a political crisis in Israel. Those in Israel who feel that international isolation is preferable to accommodation with the Palestinians are in control now. Many in the opposition see Israel’s isolation as a strategic threat. Economically and militarily, they argue, Israel cannot survive in isolation. The current regime will respond that there will be no isolation. The flotilla aimed to generate what the government has said would not happen.
The tougher Israel is, the more the flotilla’s narrative takes hold. As the Zionists knew in 1947 and the Palestinians are learning, controlling public opinion requires subtlety, a selective narrative and cynicism. As they also knew, losing the battle can be catastrophic. It cost Britain the Mandate and allowed Israel to survive. Israel’s enemies are now turning the tables. This maneuver was far more effective than suicide bombings or the Intifada in challenging Israel’s public perception and therefore its geopolitical position (though if the Palestinians return to some of their more distasteful tactics like suicide bombing, the Turkish strategy of portraying Israel as the instigator of violence will be undermined).
Israel is now in uncharted waters. It does not know how to respond. It is not clear that the Palestinians know how to take full advantage of the situation, either. But even so, this places the battle on a new field, far more fluid and uncontrollable than what went before. The next steps will involve calls for sanctions against Israel. The Israeli threats against Iran will be seen in a different context, and Israeli portrayal of Iran will hold less sway over the world.
And this will cause a political crisis in Israel. If this government survives, then Israel is locked into a course that gives it freedom of action but international isolation. If the government falls, then Israel enters a period of domestic uncertainty. In either case, the flotilla achieved its strategic mission. It got Israel to take violent action against it. In doing so, Israel ran into its own fist.
"This report is republished with permission of STRATFOR"
AngelsSix
06-01-2010, 14:37
When the Israelis say "blockade", they mean "blockade".
I am sitting here, watching the scene from "Band of Brothers" where the 101st Airborne is liberating a concentration camp. It occurs to me that Israel has learned, the hard way, to play by the rules handed down by Joshua and Moses.
They are, for the umpteenth time in their existence, surrounded by enemies bent on their destruction, and their allies are "fair-weather friends" at best.
IMO, I say more power to 'em.
Agreed, I recently took the Holocaust class at the local college to fulfill my Humanities requirement and it was very eye opening. I say let the Israelis have at it. I'll join them.:lifter
I say let the Israelis have at it.Does "never again!" entail "never again by any means necessary"?:confused:
Does "never again!" entail "never again by any means necessary"?
YES
Blue
Surgicalcric
06-01-2010, 20:04
Is unilateralism the answer?
Does "never again!" entail "never again by any means necessary"?:confused:
I say yes on both accounts.
Sigaba, what is there to be confused about (your smiley)? There are multiple states and other non-state/state sponsored agencies trying to destroy Israel...
Who are we to tell them how to defend themselves?
Crip
Here are some thoughts from Stratfor....
Flotillas and the Wars of Public Opinion
By George Friedman
On Sunday, Israeli naval forces intercepted the ships of a Turkish nongovernmental organization (NGO) delivering humanitarian supplies to Gaza. Israel had demanded that the vessels not go directly to Gaza but instead dock in Israeli ports, where the supplies would be offloaded and delivered to Gaza. The Turkish NGO refused, insisting on going directly to Gaza. Gunfire ensued when Israeli naval personnel boarded one of the vessels, and a significant number of the passengers and crew on the ship were killed or wounded.
Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister Danny Ayalon charged that the mission was simply an attempt to provoke the Israelis. That was certainly the case. The mission was designed to demonstrate that the Israelis were unreasonable and brutal. The hope was that Israel would be provoked to extreme action, further alienating Israel from the global community and possibly driving a wedge between Israel and the United States. The operation’s planners also hoped this would trigger a political crisis in Israel.
A logical Israeli response would have been avoiding falling into the provocation trap and suffering the political repercussions the Turkish NGO was trying to trigger. Instead, the Israelis decided to make a show of force. The Israelis appear to have reasoned that backing down would demonstrate weakness and encourage further flotillas to Gaza, unraveling the Israeli position vis-à-vis Hamas. In this thinking, a violent interception was a superior strategy to accommodation regardless of political consequences. Thus, the Israelis accepted the bait and were provoked.
The ‘Exodus’ Scenario
In the 1950s, an author named Leon Uris published a book called “Exodus.” Later made into a major motion picture, Exodus told the story of a Zionist provocation against the British. In the wake of World War II, the British — who controlled Palestine, as it was then known — maintained limits on Jewish immigration there. Would-be immigrants captured trying to run the blockade were detained in camps in Cyprus. In the book and movie, Zionists planned a propaganda exercise involving a breakout of Jews — mostly children — from the camp, who would then board a ship renamed the Exodus. When the Royal Navy intercepted the ship, the passengers would mount a hunger strike. The goal was to portray the British as brutes finishing the work of the Nazis. The image of children potentially dying of hunger would force the British to permit the ship to go to Palestine, to reconsider British policy on immigration, and ultimately to decide to abandon Palestine and turn the matter over to the United Nations.
There was in fact a ship called Exodus, but the affair did not play out precisely as portrayed by Uris, who used an amalgam of incidents to display the propaganda war waged by the Jews. Those carrying out this war had two goals. The first was to create sympathy in Britain and throughout the world for Jews who, just a couple of years after German concentration camps, were now being held in British camps. Second, they sought to portray their struggle as being against the British. The British were portrayed as continuing Nazi policies toward the Jews in order to maintain their empire. The Jews were portrayed as anti-imperialists, fighting the British much as the Americans had.
It was a brilliant strategy. By focusing on Jewish victimhood and on the British, the Zionists defined the battle as being against the British, with the Arabs playing the role of people trying to create the second phase of the Holocaust. The British were portrayed as pro-Arab for economic and imperial reasons, indifferent at best to the survivors of the Holocaust. Rather than restraining the Arabs, the British were arming them. The goal was not to vilify the Arabs but to villify the British, and to position the Jews with other nationalist groups whether in India or Egypt rising against the British.
The precise truth or falsehood of this portrayal didn’t particularly matter. For most of the world, the Palestine issue was poorly understood and not a matter of immediate concern. The Zionists intended to shape the perceptions of a global public with limited interest in or understanding of the issues, filling in the blanks with their own narrative. And they succeeded.
The success was rooted in a political reality. Where knowledge is limited, and the desire to learn the complex reality doesn’t exist, public opinion can be shaped by whoever generates the most powerful symbols. And on a matter of only tangential interest, governments tend to follow their publics’ wishes, however they originate. There is little to be gained for governments in resisting public opinion and much to be gained by giving in. By shaping the battlefield of public perception, it is thus possible to get governments to change positions.
In this way, the Zionists’ ability to shape global public perceptions of what was happening in Palestine — to demonize the British and turn the question of Palestine into a Jewish-British issue — shaped the political decisions of a range of governments. It was not the truth or falsehood of the narrative that mattered. What mattered was the ability to identify the victim and victimizer such that global opinion caused both London and governments not directly involved in the issue to adopt political stances advantageous to the Zionists. It is in this context that we need to view the Turkish flotilla.
The Turkish Flotilla to Gaza
The Palestinians have long argued that they are the victims of Israel, an invention of British and American imperialism. Since 1967, they have focused not so much on the existence of the state of Israel (at least in messages geared toward the West) as on the oppression of Palestinians in the occupied territories. Since the split between Hamas and Fatah and the Gaza War, the focus has been on the plight of the citizens of Gaza, who have been portrayed as the dispossessed victims of Israeli violence.
The bid to shape global perceptions by portraying the Palestinians as victims of Israel was the first prong of a longtime two-part campaign. The second part of this campaign involved armed resistance against the Israelis. The way this resistance was carried out, from airplane hijackings to stone-throwing children to suicide bombers, interfered with the first part of the campaign, however. The Israelis could point to suicide bombings or the use of children against soldiers as symbols of Palestinian inhumanity. This in turn was used to justify conditions in Gaza. While the Palestinians had made significant inroads in placing Israel on the defensive in global public opinion, they thus consistently gave the Israelis the opportunity to turn the tables. And this is where the flotilla comes in.
The Turkish flotilla aimed to replicate the Exodus story or, more precisely, to define the global image of Israel in the same way the Zionists defined the image that they wanted to project. As with the Zionist portrayal of the situation in 1947, the Gaza situation is far more complicated than as portrayed by the Palestinians. The moral question is also far more ambiguous. But as in 1947, when the Zionist portrayal was not intended to be a scholarly analysis of the situation but a political weapon designed to define perceptions, the Turkish flotilla was not designed to carry out a moral inquest.
Instead, the flotilla was designed to achieve two ends. The first is to divide Israel and Western governments by shifting public opinion against Israel. The second is to create a political crisis inside Israel between those who feel that Israel’s increasing isolation over the Gaza issue is dangerous versus those who think any weakening of resolve is dangerous.
The Geopolitical Fallout for Israel
It is vital that the Israelis succeed in portraying the flotilla as an extremist plot. Whether extremist or not, the plot has generated an image of Israel quite damaging to Israeli political interests. Israel is increasingly isolated internationally, with heavy pressure on its relationship with Europe and the United States.
In all of these countries, politicians are extremely sensitive to public opinion. It is difficult to imagine circumstances under which public opinion will see Israel as the victim. The general response in the Western public is likely to be that the Israelis probably should have allowed the ships to go to Gaza and offload rather than to precipitate bloodshed. Israel’s enemies will fan these flames by arguing that the Israelis prefer bloodshed to reasonable accommodation. And as Western public opinion shifts against Israel, Western political leaders will track with this shift.
The incident also wrecks Israeli relations with Turkey, historically an Israeli ally in the Muslim world with longstanding military cooperation with Israel. The Turkish government undoubtedly has wanted to move away from this relationship, but it faced resistance within the Turkish military and among secularists. The new Israeli action makes a break with Israel easy, and indeed almost necessary for Ankara.
continued...
With roughly the population of Houston, Texas, Israel is just not large enough to withstand extended isolation, meaning this event has profound geopolitical implications.
Public opinion matters where issues are not of fundamental interest to a nation. Israel is not a fundamental interest to other nations. The ability to generate public antipathy to Israel can therefore reshape Israeli relations with countries critical to Israel. For example, a redefinition of U.S.-Israeli relations will have much less effect on the United States than on Israel. The Obama administration, already irritated by the Israelis, might now see a shift in U.S. public opinion that will open the way to a new U.S.-Israeli relationship disadvantageous to Israel.
The Israelis will argue that this is all unfair, as they were provoked. Like the British, they seem to think that the issue is whose logic is correct. But the issue actually is, whose logic will be heard? As with a tank battle or an airstrike, this sort of warfare has nothing to do with fairness. It has to do with controlling public perception and using that public perception to shape foreign policy around the world. In this case, the issue will be whether the deaths were necessary. The Israeli argument of provocation will have limited traction.
Internationally, there is little doubt that the incident will generate a firestorm. Certainly, Turkey will break cooperation with Israel. Opinion in Europe will likely harden. And public opinion in the United States — by far the most important in the equation — might shift to a “plague-on-both-your-houses” position.
While the international reaction is predictable, the interesting question is whether this evolution will cause a political crisis in Israel. Those in Israel who feel that international isolation is preferable to accommodation with the Palestinians are in control now. Many in the opposition see Israel’s isolation as a strategic threat. Economically and militarily, they argue, Israel cannot survive in isolation. The current regime will respond that there will be no isolation. The flotilla aimed to generate what the government has said would not happen.
The tougher Israel is, the more the flotilla’s narrative takes hold. As the Zionists knew in 1947 and the Palestinians are learning, controlling public opinion requires subtlety, a selective narrative and cynicism. As they also knew, losing the battle can be catastrophic. It cost Britain the Mandate and allowed Israel to survive. Israel’s enemies are now turning the tables. This maneuver was far more effective than suicide bombings or the Intifada in challenging Israel’s public perception and therefore its geopolitical position (though if the Palestinians return to some of their more distasteful tactics like suicide bombing, the Turkish strategy of portraying Israel as the instigator of violence will be undermined).
Israel is now in uncharted waters. It does not know how to respond. It is not clear that the Palestinians know how to take full advantage of the situation, either. But even so, this places the battle on a new field, far more fluid and uncontrollable than what went before. The next steps will involve calls for sanctions against Israel. The Israeli threats against Iran will be seen in a different context, and Israeli portrayal of Iran will hold less sway over the world.
And this will cause a political crisis in Israel. If this government survives, then Israel is locked into a course that gives it freedom of action but international isolation. If the government falls, then Israel enters a period of domestic uncertainty. In either case, the flotilla achieved its strategic mission. It got Israel to take violent action against it. In doing so, Israel ran into its own fist.
Does "never again!" entail "never again by any means necessary"?
IMHO, No it doesn't, on both a moral and strategic plane. There is an evil chill to Auschwitz words can't describe. I understand Israel's right to self defense, and admire her grit. However just as most of us wouldn't accept an abusive childhood as a crutch for subsequent conduct, generally speaking neither can they.
Many of my closest friends are Jewish, while a few believe Israel can do no wrong, most, and interestingly all who are IDF vets seem to echo their best chance for peace died with Yitzhak Rabin, some sort of compromise is the only solution, and subsequent Israeli administrations keep hawkishly painting themselves into the same corner.
The counter argument is we don't face what they face, which is true, but their strategy to date has not brought them the resolution they seek. Finally, when I think of the Israelis I applaud Entebbe, but never forget the USS Liberty.
I say yes on both accounts.
Sigaba, what is there to be confused about (your smiley)? There are multiple states and other non-state/state sponsored agencies trying to destroy Israel...
Who are we to tell them how to defend themselves?
CripCrip--
To answer your question, a sovereign nation is responsible unto itself for its own defense.
At the same time, the moment a nation takes the position that the ends justify the means, the notion of "strategy" goes out the window. (And what happens if a state we respect today decides we're in the way of their survival tomorrow?)
Moreover, given the "Why the Conservatives Love the Founders" thread (http://professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28908) from a week or two ago, it is worth noting that this incident serves as an example why some of the founders advocated neutrality.
Also, PM sent.
Surgicalcric
06-01-2010, 21:14
... it is worth noting that this incident serves as an example why some of the founders advocated neutrality...
Indeed...
The real weapons were probably hidden out of site and unaccessable in case of boarding if they were there.
"During its searches of the Mavi Marmara on Tuesday, the military also discovered a cache of bulletproof vests and night-vision goggles...
...over 50 passengers with possible terror connections have refused to identify themselves and were not carrying passports. Many of them were carrying envelopes packed with thousands of dollars in cash...."
> http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=177169
Since when do peace activists need night-vision goggles, bulletproof vests, and mega wads of cash :confused: :munchin
During its searches of the Mavi Marmara on Tuesday, the military also discovered a cache of bulletproof vests and night-vision goggles...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kr-F9M54eo&feature=related
I wouldn't expect anything less from the Free Gaza Movement, whose supporters include William Ayers and Bernardine Dohrn.
I'm curious as well to know what Rashid Khalidi has to say about this whole affair.... :eek:
http://gatewaypundit.firstthings.com/2010/06/figures-media-matters-jumps-in-to-defend-obamas-close-family-friends-ties-to-terror-linked-gaza-flotilla/
mojaveman
06-01-2010, 23:12
I grew tired of the Israeli-Palestinian problem a long time ago.
Move Gaza to the other side of the Eqyptian boarder.
Relocate all of the Palestinians in the West Bank to the East Bank.
(Sarcasm)
Just how secular is Turkey ? :confused:
For the last several decades, the Turkish military was untouchable; no one dared to criticize the military or its top generals, lest they risk getting burned. The Turkish Armed Forces were the ultimate protectors of founding father Kemal Ataturk's secular legacy, and no other force in the country could seriously threaten its supremacy. Not anymore.
...In the late 1990s, Gülen went head-to-head with Turkey's military -- and lost...
The FGH has returned, however, with a vengeance. When the AKP, which is largely a reincarnation of the banned RP, came to power in 2002...
...Welcome to the new Turkey: If you listen carefully, you can hear the political ground shifting below your feet...
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2010/02/25/whats_really_behind_turkeys_coup_arrests?page=0,1
This doesn't look good...with Turkey being a member of NATO, the implications are huge...
Turkey threatens action; Israel on alert
Turkey has threatened Israel with unprecedented action after Israeli forces attacked an aid vessel, killing 10 peace activists headed to Gaza.
A shocked world has responded with outrage. Turkey recalled its ambassador to Israel and warned of unprecedented and incalculable reprisals.
The Arab League has called an urgent meeting on Tuesday to decide on a common response. Egypt is under pressure to end the blockade of Gaza while Greece has cancelled a military exercise with Isreal.
The world is waiting for the response from Washington, how will President Obama react to the provocation from America's closest ally.
http://ibnlive.in.com/news/turkey-threatens-action-israel-on-alert/116743-2.html
If the Turkish Navy escorts the next flotilla to Gaza and shots are fired, will Turkey invoke NATO's Article V :confused:
"Ends justifying means" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3L7OV414Kk)
"Neutrality" (http://www.time.com/time/video/player/0,32068,85555888001_1991530,00.html?xid=aol-direct)
Arab Media Reports on Flotilla Participants: Writing Wills, Preparing for Martyrdom, Determined to Reach Gaza or Die
June 1, 2010
Special Dispatch No.2990
Flotilla Participants
Following is information from the Arab media about some of the flotilla participants. It should be noted that many of these were from the Muslim Brotherhood across the Muslim world.
(For more on this subject, see also MEMRI Special Dispatch No. 2986, "MEMRI TV Clips on the Gaza Flotilla: Activists On Board Chant Songs of Martyrdom at Departure," http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/4249.htm .)
Egypt
In Friday sermons, Muslim Brotherhood General Guide Muhammad Badi' expressed support for Hamas, frequently reiterating harsh statements in favor of jihad and of the armed struggle in Palestine, Iraq, and Afghanistan.
The Egyptian flotilla delegation included two members of the Muslim Brotherhood bloc in the Egyptian parliament: Muhammad Al-Baltaji and Hazem Farouq.
Al-Baltaji, who is deputy secretary-general of the Muslim Brotherhood parliamentary bloc in Egypt, said at a March 2010 conference, "A nation that excels at dying will be blessed by Allah with a life of dignity and with eternal paradise." He also said that his movement "will never recognize Israel and will never abandon the resistance," and that "resistance is the only road map that can save Jerusalem, restore the Arab honor, and prevent Palestine from becoming a second Andalusia.[1]
Lebanon
The Lebanese flotilla delegation, with six members, was headed by attorney Dr. Hani Suleiman, who also participated in a February 2009 Gaza flotilla. He was pro-bono attorney to Japanese terrorist Kozo Okamoto.[2] In 2006, he signed a communiqué supporting armed resistance in Palestine, Lebanon, and Iraq.[3]
Three other members of the Lebanese delegation are Al-Jazeera TV correspondents.[4] One, 'Abbas Nasser, worked for Hizbullah's Al-Manar TV from 1997 through 2003; he has said that he enjoyed working there because he felt like part of a family, and because the channel "embraced his religious and political orientation." In 2003, he also worked for Iran's Al-'Alam TV.[5]
Another delegation member, Hussein Shaker, is known as "Abu Al-Shuhada" ("Father of the Martyrs"). He has reportedly expressed a desire to meet "his martyrs" (i.e. relatives killed during the 2006 Lebanon war), and has called his participation in the flotilla revenge for their deaths.[6]
Jordan
The Jordanian flotilla delegation included Muslim Brotherhood in Jordan activists such as delegation head Wael Al-Saka, a veteran Muslim Brotherhood member,[7] and Salam Al-Falahat, who was general guide of the Muslim Brotherhood in Jordan from 2006 to 2008.[8] In an interview last year, Al-Falahat said: "We in the Muslim Brotherhood in Jordan see Palestine as part of the Islamic and Arab land that must not be relinquished – on the contrary, defending it is a national and jurisprudential obligation... We see Hamas movement in Palestine as standing at the head of the project of the Arab and Islamic liberation for which the Muslim Brotherhood calls... The Muslim Brotherhood supports Hamas and every Arab resistance movement in the region that works for liberation."[9]
Also in the delegation was Jordanian publicist and journalist Muhammad Abu Ghanima, a former head of the Muslim Brotherhood in Jordan's information bureau and a member of the movement's political bureau. Abu Ghanima writes frequent articles praising Hamas and condemning the Palestinian Authority. In one, he vehemently attacked Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak, calling on the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt to topple his regime even at the cost of thousands of martyrs.[10]
Journalist Saud Salam Abu Mahfouz, member of the Muslim Brotherhood in Jordan's political party, the Islamic Action Front, is also director-general of the Jordanian Al-Sabil newspaper, which is identified with the Muslim Brotherhood. His son, Jordanian correspondent for Hamas' Al-Aqsa TV, was arrested in Egypt in 2008.[11]
Syria
The only Syrian citizen of the flotilla's 700 participants was Shadha Barakat. She was sent as a representative of the Civil Association for Resisting Zionism and Aid for Palestine, which supports armed resistance in Palestine and in Iraq. Her husband Ayman said that she had written a play on assassinated Hamas founder and leader Sheikh Ahmad Yassin, and had told him that when she reaches Gaza she "plans to visit [Yassin's] home and inhale the scent of the place where he lived."[12]
Yemen
Prominent activists in the Yemeni flotilla delegation were three MPs from the Al-Islah party, an Islamist party that is close to the Muslim Brotherhood. One, Sheikh Muhammad Al-Hazmi, was photographed on the deck of the Mavi Marmara brandishing his large curved dagger.[13]
Another Yemeni MP in the flotilla, Hazza' Al-Maswari, also from the Al-Islah party, previously expressed vehement anti-American sentiment. In 2004, he objected to a Yemeni program for dialogue with prisoners from Al-Qaeda aimed at tempering their views, declaring recently at Friday prayers: "We cannot tell militants 'don't terrorize Americans' or 'don't attack their interests.' Those who plant hatred will harvest hatred."[14]
Kuwait
Among the prominent flotilla activists from Kuwait were Salafist MP Walid Al-Tabtabai, who is known to support armed resistance in Palestine and in Iraq. He said: "We think that the armed resistance in Iraq is legitimate resistance. Every resistance directed against anyone who occupies it is legitimate..."[16] Al-Tabtabai also expressed explicit support for Hamas and objected to the regime of Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud 'Abbas.[17]
Another prominent Kuwaiti activist in the flotilla was Dr. Osama Al-Kandari, a Hadith lecturer at the College of Basic Education. In February 2009, he signed a communiqué expressing support for Hamas and for jihad in Palestine against the "Jewish enemies."[18]
Bahrain
Sheikh Jalal Al-Sharqi, head of the Association of Islamic Scholars in the GCC Countries, was also on board. Previously, Al-Sharqi signed a clerics' petition calling to acknowledge Hamas's legitimacy, as recognized by shari'a, and not to prevent it from obtaining weapons. The petition justified the stance of the "fighters in Gaza" who cling to jihad "against the Jews" and to martyrdom.[19]
Anticipating Conflict, Willing to Die
In their statements, flotilla participants raised the possibility that Israel would use force to prevent the ship from reaching the Gaza coast, and declared that this would not stop them. Many noted that they would break the siege even if it cost them their lives.
Muhammad Al-Baltaji, of the Muslim Brotherhood faction in the Egyptian parliament, said: "The flotilla participants have two aims: to reach Gaza and break the siege, and to denounce Israel if it prevents the flotilla from entering Gaza, even at the cost of martyrdom or imprisonment."[22]
Algerian delegation head Dr. Abd Al Razzaq Maqri, who is the deputy head of the Algerian group Movement of Society for Peace, Algeria's major Islamist party, said, "The Algerians on board will hear only the orders of their leaders, who seek to break the siege. [The options are] martyrdom, imprisonment, or breaking [the siege]."[23]
The website of the group titled its collection of photos from the flotilla "Photos of Algerian Mujahideen."[24]
Algerian delegation coordinator Ahmad Brahimi said about his delegation: "Algeria has been known for its support of the Palestinian cause since the days of Salah Al-Din Al-Ayyubi. Our fathers gave their blood and lives to defend Palestine... and we are the sons of those fathers." He added that the delegation's only purpose was to reach Gaza, and that Israel could not prevent it from doing so.[25]
Another participant, Attorney Fathi Nassar of Jordan, said: "The Freedom Flotilla members are filled with determination to reach Gaza or die."[26]
Rami Abdou, representative of the European Campaign to End the Siege on Gaza, said that most of the participants were willing to lay down their lives to reach Gaza. He stressed that they would not allow the occupation forces to tow the ship to Ashdod.[27]
Shadha Barakat's husband Ayman said that his wife was likely to be harmed during the venture, adding that "she will make no truce with Zionism" and that "since she was a child, she has dreamed of attacking an Israeli."[28]
Participants Write Their Wills
At a press conference in Antalya, Turkey, the flotilla organizers asked all the participants to "write their wills."[29] Following the press conference, Kuwaiti Salafist MP Walid Al-Tabtabai reportedly "did not hesitate to write his will, in defiance of the Israeli threats."[30]
Kuwaiti MP Walid Al-Tabtabai wrote his will before boarding the Mavi Marmara
The father of Kuwaiti activist Abd Al-Rahman Al-Filkawi told the Kuwaiti Al-Watan daily that his son had told him that the flotilla participants' morale was high, and that they "would sacrifice themselves for the sake of Allah. He added that his son had "told them before embarking that he would be a martyr for the sake of Allah."[31] Likewise, on the various Internet forums, it was reported that the mother of one of the Turkish participants had said that her son had bade her farewell and told her that he was going to lay down his life.[32]
http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/4265.htm
Source, Jawa > http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/202697.php
...This doesn't look good...with Turkey being a member of NATO, the implications are huge...
............. If the Turkish Navy escorts the next flotilla to Gaza and shots are fired, will Turkey invoke NATO's Article V :confused:
Elections have consequences.
Maybe the US's stance on Israel the past 1 1/2 years has given some the impression to some that now would be a good time to act.
Where is the "Great Leader" as all this is going down?
For all you "peace at any price" folks - wipe Israel of the face of the map tonight. In the morning what will have changed? Nothing. The terrorists leading the Islamic states will still need to focus the people on an outside enemy - to keep them from noticing that their existance is crap because of their leaders - not the Great Satan.
And Turkey? We've had threads around here for years about her slide into the Islamist camp.
I grew tired of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict a long time ago.
Move Gaza to the other side of the Eqyptian boarder.
Relocate all of the Palestinians in the West Bank to East Bank.
Neah!
aye, if only it were that easy.
I wonder what the average, patriotic American would say if a 'foreign power' came to their doorstep and told them to leave the land that they've been inhabiting for x generations...
aye, if only it were that easy.
I wonder what the average, patriotic American would say if a 'foreign power' came to their doorstep and told them to leave the land that they've been inhabiting for x generations...
Ah, Gaza was part of Egypt. Egypt elects to keep things the way they are.
Better to keep the Gaza folks up in arms against Israel than have to deal with them.
Same with Jordan and the West Bank.
Palistinians are a foil for the rest of the Arab world.
The Reaper
06-02-2010, 07:06
Ah, Gaza was part of Egypt. Egypt elects to keep things the way they are.
Better to keep the Gaza folks up in arms against Israel than have to deal with them.
Same with Jordan and the West Bank.
Palistinians are a foil for the rest of the Arab world.
Exactly!
They are an external focus for the populations of nations with serious internal problems.
And they do not want the situation resolved.
TR
Just got this from a friend of mine. Something I hadn't thought about. Makes for interesting coversation if you are into that kind of thing.
Israel-Turkey-Hamas: Four ships from the Gaza-bound flotilla that was raided on 31 May Israeli naval forces have arrived at the port of Ashdod, Israel,
accompanied by Israeli warships, Al Jazeera reported.
According to Israel Defense Forces Chief of Staff Gen. Gabi Ashkenazi, the Israeli soldiers that intercepted the Gaza-bound aid flotilla acted in
self-defense, and violence aboard the Mavi Marmara, one of the aid ships, was instigated by those aboard the ship, The Jerusalem Post reported 31 May.
Ashkenazi said passengers aboard most of the ships were activists but the Mavi Marmara, the only ship on which violence took place, was sponsored by
what he termed an "extremist organization" the Turkish non-governmental organization Insani Yardim Vakfi.
International Reaction: Every country in the world that pays attention to the Middle East or contains a mosque has condemned or denounced Israel.
Pakistan has called for Muslim countries to act in concert in peaceful coercion of Israel.
Comment: NightWatch assesses that US diplomacy for a Middle East peace plan is the actual target of the Israeli naval action. Israel has just
demonstrated that the US cannot control Israel, undermining any confidence Arab countries place in US promises relating to Israeli behavior. Israel
refuses to be bound by US promises.
The timing of the Israeli action appears related to the unprecedented US position of supporting what Israeli leaders consider a hostile resolution in
preparation for the Non-Proliferation Treaty Review, due in 2012. According to the analysis of The Jerusalem Post, the US was willing to sign the
resolution in exchange for broad support for new sanctions against Iran. Ironically, today, Iran issued a statement supporting the resolution!
The Jerusalem Post published the following. "The cost of the American compromise? A declaration that pressures Israel to sign the NPT and open its
nuclear facilities to inspection; appoints a special UN envoy on nuclear weapons in the Middle East; and establishes an international conference,
albeit one two years from now, and not next year as the Egyptians wanted."
"As if to soften the jab, American officials immediately retreated from their support for the resolution and appeared to soften their stance by
setting conditions for the conference to take place. Indeed, the American statements raise the possibility that the conference may not happen at all."
"In a statement on Friday night, US National Security Adviser Gen. James Jones said he had "serious reservations" about the 2012 conference, and said
Middle East peace and compliance with nonproliferation obligations "are essential precursors" to a nuclear-free Middle East. He defended Israel,
calling the resolution's failure to mention Iran "deplorable." (emphasis added.)
Something miscarried if Iran was not mentioned in a compromise resolution whose purpose is to build pressure on Iran. It looks like some negotiators,
in their haste to throw Israel under the NPT bus, overlooked Iran.
NightWatch and a few news organizations reported that such was rumored to be the intention of the US administration in January 2010. It created a
political storm in Israel then and seems to be a behind-the-scenes causal factor in the weekend's military action.
In the process, Israel's Navy once again challenged the Arabs and others: who will fight for the Palestinians, especially Hamas. The strength of the
denunciations seems inversely proportionate to Muslim and Arab powerlessness in preventing and responding to Israeli actions. Pakistan, for example, is
one of the loudest denouncers, but lacks the credentials to lead the Arabs.
Postscript: Turkey announced it would send armed escorts with any future aid sea convoys for Gaza.
Green Light
06-02-2010, 15:06
Interesting analysis. I disagree that the action was an effort to get the US in peace talks or even in a peace talk mood. My impression is that Israel is doing exactly what it said - intercepting the importation of arms into Gaza. They were certainly doing it for all the world to see, but the world won't look.
The pictures of the assaulters being pulled off of the fast-rope and the silhouette of a commando wielding nothing more than a paintball gun shows to me the intent of both sides. The commandos being beaten and thrown overboard shows the brutality of the "peace activists."
olhamada
06-02-2010, 22:02
From PM Netanyahu's nephew:
http://www.csmonitor.com/Commentary/Opinion/2010/0401/Peace-for-Israelis-and-Palestinians-Not-without-America-s-tough-love
Peace for Israelis and Palestinians? Not without America 's tough love.
An Israeli student explains why the US should act on moral outrage over Israel ’s discriminatory policies before it’s too late.
By Jonathan Ben-Artzi
posted April 1, 2010 at 11:48 am EDT
Providence, R.I. —
More than 20 years ago, many Americans decided they could no longer watch as racial segregation divided South Africa . Compelled by an injustice thousands of miles away, they demanded that their communities, their colleges, their municipalities, and their government take a stand.
As Martin Luther King Jr. said, “Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."
Today, a similar discussion is taking place on campuses across the United States. Increasingly, students are questioning the morality of the ties US institutions have with the unjust practices being carried out in Israel and in the occupied Palestinian territories. Students are seeing that these practices are often more than merely “unjust.” They are racist. Humiliating. Inhumane. Savage.
Sometimes it takes a good friend to tell you when enough is enough. As they did with South Africa two decades ago, concerned citizens across the US can make a difference by encouraging Washington to get the message to Israel that this cannot continue.
A legitimate question is, Why should I care? Americans are heavily involved in the conflict: from funding (the US provides Israel with roughly $3 billion annually in military aid) to corporate investments (Microsoft has one of its major facilities in Israel ) to diplomatic support (the US has vetoed 32 United Nations Security Council resolutions unsavory to Israel between 1982 and 2006).
Why do I care? I am an Israeli. Both my parents were born in Israel . Both my grandmothers were born in Palestine (when there was no “ Israel ” yet). In fact, I am a ninth-generation native of Palestine. My ancestors were among the founders of today’s modern Jerusalem.
Both my grandfathers fled the Nazis and came to Palestine . Both were subsequently injured in the 1948 Arab-Israli War. My mother’s only brother was a paratrooper killed in combat in 1968. All of my relatives served in the Israeli military for extensive periods of time, some of them in units most people don’t even know exist.
In Israel , military service for both men and women is compulsory.When my time to serve came, I refused, because I realized I was obliged to do something about these acts of segregation. I was denied conscientious objector status, like the majority of 18-year-old males who seek this status. Because I refused to serve, I spent a year and a half in military prison.
Some of the acts of segregation that I saw while growing up in Israel include towns for Jews only, immigration laws that allow Jews from around the world to immigrate but deny displaced indigenous Palestinians that same right, and national healthcare and school systems that receive significantly more funding in Jewish towns than in Arab towns.
As former Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said in 2008: “We have not yet overcome the barrier of discrimination, which is a deliberate discrimination and the gap is insufferable.... Governments have denied [Arab Israelis] their rights to improve their quality of life.”
The situation in the occupied territories is even worse. Nearly 4 million Palestinians have been living under Israeli occupation for over 40 years without the most basic human and civil rights.
One example is segregation on roads in the West Bank , where settlers travel on roads that are for Jews only, while Palestinians are stopped at checkpoints, and a 10-mile commute might take seven hours.
Another example is discrimination in water supply: Israel pumps drinking water from occupied territory (in violation of international law). Israelis use as much as four times more water than Palestinians, while Palestinians are not allowed to dig their own wells and must rely on Israeli supply.
Civil freedom is no better: In an effort to break the spirit of Palestinians, Israel conducts sporadic arrests and detentions with no judicial supervision. According to one prisoner support and human rights association, roughly 4 in 10 Palestinian males have spent some time in Israeli prisons. That’s 40 percent of all Palestinian males!
And finally, perhaps one of the greatest injustices takes place in the Gaza Strip, where Israel is collectively punishing more than 1.5 million Palestinians by sealing them off in the largest open-air prison on earth.
Because of the US ’s relationship with Israel , it is important for all Americans to educate themselves about the realities of the conflict. When they do, they will realize that just as much as support for South Africa decades ago was mostly damaging for South Africa itself, contemporary blind support for Israel hurts us Israelis.
We must lift the ruthless siege of Gaza , which only breeds more anger and frustration among Gazans, who respond by hurling primitive, homemade rockets at Israeli towns.
We must remove travel restrictions from West Bank Palestinians. How can we live in peace with a population where most children cannot visit their grandparents living in the neighboring village, without being stopped and harassed at military checkpoints for hours?
Finally, we must give equal rights to all. Regardless of what the final resolution will be – the so-called “one state solution,” the “two state solution,” or any other form of governance.
Israel governs the lives of 5.5 million Israeli Jews, 1.5 million Israeli Palestinians, and 4 million Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza . As long as Israel is responsible for all of these people, it must ensure that all have equal rights, the same access to resources, and the same opportunities in education and healthcare. Only through such a platform of basic human rights for all humans can a resolution come to the region.
If Americans truly are our friends, they should shake us up and take away the keys, because right now we are driving drunk, and without this wake-up call, we will soon find ourselves in the ditch of an undemocratic, doomed state.
Jonathan Ben-Artzi was one of the spokespeople for the Hadash party in the Israeli general elections in 2006. His parents are professors in Israel , and his extended family includes uncle Benjamin Netanyahu. Mr. Ben-Artzi is a PhD student at Brown University in Providence, R.I.
From PM Netanyahu's nephew:
http://www.csmonitor.com/Commentary/Opinion/2010/0401/Peace-for-Israelis-and-Palestinians-Not-without-America-s-tough-love
Peace for Israelis and Palestinians? Not without America 's tough love.
An Israeli student explains ....................I.
I didn't need to read past that - but I did. Nothing changed.
Group hug folks, they realy love us, give Peace a chance, Muslims and Jews can live together as one, all our fault. --------------- But what if you're wrong and your experiment fails?
Name one country with a majority Islamic population where the other religions of the world live in Peace with it.
Utah Bob
06-03-2010, 08:56
You just wait. Obama's going to make a very strong statement on this any minute. Very strong. You just wait! Why, he's been on top of this from the get go. Just like the Gulf Spill. You'll see!:rolleyes:
Just watched a video on youtube titled "Israeli Navy Murders Sleeping Aid Workers in International Waters - Free Gaza Flotilla"
What a load of horseshit!
The person narrating video is saying "innocent" people are being murdered and gunshots are heard..:rolleyes:
Almost all the shots heard at the background are the pepperball weapons.
Yes, bloody stretchers and people are shown, but why there is no footage of "murders of sleeping aidworkers" as they clearly had the cameras ready to roll..perhaps all the people killed were shot in self defence by the S13 folks..
For all you "peace at any price" folks - wipe Israel of the face of the map tonight. In the morning what will have changed? Nothing. The terrorists leading the Islamic states will still need to focus the people on an outside enemy - to keep them from noticing that their existance is crap because of their leaders - not the Great Satan.
And Turkey? We've had threads around here for years about her slide into the Islamist camp.
Palestinians are a foil for the rest of the Arab world.
Exactly!
They are an external focus for the populations of nations with serious internal problems.
And they do not want the situation resolved.
TRFWIW, I agree. I would like the United States to pursue policies that encourage if possible (and force if necessary) the Arab world to look inward and to get their own houses in order.
According to Israel Defense Forces Chief of Staff Gen. Gabi Ashkenazi, the Israeli soldiers that intercepted the Gaza-bound aid flotilla acted in self-defense, and violence aboard the Mavi Marmara, one of the aid ships, was instigated by those aboard the ship, The Jerusalem Post reported 31 May.MOO, this kind of rhetoric does not work. YMMV.
Peace for Israelis and Palestinians? Not without America 's tough love.
An Israeli student explains why the US should act on moral outrage over Israel ’s discriminatory policies before it’s too late.
By Jonathan Ben-Artzi
posted April 1, 2010 at 11:48 am EDT
Providence, R.I. —
More than 20 years ago, many Americans decided they could no longer watch as racial segregation divided South Africa . Compelled by an injustice thousands of miles away, they demanded that their communities, their colleges, their municipalities, and their government take a stand.
As Martin Luther King Jr. said, “Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."
Today, a similar discussion is taking place on campuses across the United States. Increasingly, students are questioning the morality of the ties US institutions have with the unjust practices being carried out in Israel and in the occupied Palestinian territories. Students are seeing that these practices are often more than merely “unjust.” They are racist. Humiliating. Inhumane. Savage.
Sometimes it takes a good friend to tell you when enough is enough. As they did with South Africa two decades ago, concerned citizens across the US can make a difference by encouraging Washington to get the message to Israel that this cannot continue.I would have torn his ass apart in a debate!
First thing I would have opened with: "Can you describe the physical color of religion?":confused:
Stay safe.
And so it goes...;)
Richard's $.02 :munchin
AngelsSix
06-04-2010, 17:45
And so it goes...;)
Richard's $.02 :munchin
EXACTLY!
incarcerated
06-05-2010, 01:23
Round 2.
http://www.jpost.com/Home/Article.aspx?id=177526
'Rachel Corrie' intercepted off Gaza coast
Jerusalem Post - 1 hour ago
By JPOST.COM STAFF
06/05/2010 07:12
Navy ships have intercepted the boat Rachel Corrie approximately 55 kilometers from the Gaza Strip, and are calling on it to divert to Ashdod, activists on board the boat said Saturday morning.
Earlier reports had suggested that the Rachel Corrie had been boarded, but the army and the boat’s passenger’s later said this was not true.
“They are being followed,” said Greta Berlin of the Free Gaza, which is one of the groups behind the effort to break Israel’s blockade of Gaza.
Earlier in the night, boat co-sponsor ‘Perdana Global Peace Organization,’ a Malaysian NGO, stated on its website that the ship's passengers had agreed to let international inspectors search the ship before it proceeded to Gaza. The statement said that the activists "welcome a UN inspection to examine our cargo, which is solely construction and educational materials and medical supplies, but we believe this can be done at sea or in Gaza.”
Irish Foreign Minister Dr. Michael Martin had earlier reached an agreement with Israel, whereby the Rachel Corrie would proceed to Ashdod where its contents would be checked, unloaded and then shipped to Gaza under observation of representatives of the activists, the UN and the Irish government. The activists rejected this offer, insisting on breaking the Israeli blockade. They did however give assurances that they would not resist the IDF, should it decide to board the ship. The White House later expressed support for the agreement and called on the ship to dock at Ashdod.
Jenny Graham, who is on board the ship, told the "Free Gaza movement" that "We will have no part in a deal that involves us legitimizing the siege of Gaza. We intend to continue on our mission to deliver our cargo of aid and supplies to the people of Gaza. This has always been our intention."
....Greta Berlin, a co-founder of the Free Gaza movement, said those on board the ship had no intention of ceding to Israel's request. Nor, she said, were they impressed by Netanyahu's statements Thursday to UN Middle East envoy Tony Blair, in which he promised to increase the amount and variety of goods which could enter Gaza by land.
"We do not trust Israel anymore," said Berlin.
"Our mission is to break the blockade of Gaza," she told The Jerusalem Post. Unlike the six ship flotilla which had close to 700 people, the Rachel Corrie, she said, had only 20 people on board. These people are all non-violent, she added.
As far as I know, our financial and military support today is proportional to what it was 5 years ago. What are you all proposing we do for them other than maintaining the status quo? IMHO media/interest groups have shaded President Bush as pro Israel and President Obama as indifferent, but in reality (physical support through military and monetary means,) nothing has changed. Why has the language used towards the President with regards to this issue changed so much over the last 10 years? Do these naval actions really warrant any action from our government?
IMHO media/interest groups have shaded President Bush as pro Israel and [the current president] as indifferent, but in reality (physical support through military and monetary means,) nothing has changed. Remember, perception is reality, especially when it comes to naval diplomacy.
Do these naval actions really warrant any action from our government?IMO, the answer is 'yes.' As the world's preeminent naval power, the U.S. should take an active interest in all applications of sea power. We should not condemn tactics that we might yet use. We must also state our support for Israel in unequivocal terms.
At the same time, our rhetoric needs to demonstrate an awareness of our own naval history. (That is, at several points in our past, we would have been among the first nations to question the propriety of Israel's conduct--freedom of the seas, and all that.)
(Ah, the issues of the day are so easy to solve from the parking office.)
This is good. Very good...
http://www dot youtube.com/watch?v=FOGG_osOoVg
Peregrino
06-06-2010, 11:59
Nothing here that can't be solved by PT boats and a couple of Mk 48 torpedos.
incarcerated
06-06-2010, 13:45
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/idf-five-gaza-flotilla-activists-linked-to-hamas-al-qaida-1.294546
Five Gaza flotilla activists linked to Hamas, Al-Qaida
By Anshel Pfeffer
Published 21:18 06.06.10
The Israel Defense Forces revealed on Sunday that five of the pro-Palestinian activists aboard the Turkish-flagged ship it intercepted last week en route to the Gaza Strip have links to the Hamas and Islamic Jihad movements.
The military did not specify whether these five activists took part in the violent clashes with the Israel Navy commandos that left nine people dead and several more wounded.
One of the activists exposed by the IDF was named as Iranian-born Fatima Mohammadi, a 31-year-old resident of the United States. According to the IDF, Mohammadi is a member of Viva Palestine, a movement that had tried bringing illegal electronic devices into the Gaza Strip.
Ken O'Keefe, a 41-year-old citizen of the United States and Britain, was another activist named by the IDF as having links to terrorist organizations. According to the IDF, O'Keefe is an extremist who hates Israel and whose "goal was to reach Gaza in order to help train and establish Hamas commando units."
The other activists singled out by the IDF were Hassan Aynsey, a 28-year-old Turkish citizen who belongs to an Islamic charity and regularly contributed financial assistance to Islamic Jihad; Hussein Orush, a supporter of the Turkish IHH who was allegedly planning to help bring Al-Qaida militants from Turkey to Gaza; and Ahmed Omemun, a 51-year-old Moroccan-born resident of France and allegedly a member of Hamas.
Reuters is helping:
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/arti..._Pool_of_Blood
so much for honest reporting, as if we did not already know.
incarcerated
06-06-2010, 21:11
Reuters is helping:
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/arti..._Pool_of_Blood
so much for honest reporting, as if we did not already know.
HOLLiS,
the link needs a little repair.
Hum, I'll try again.
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/36489_Another_Cropped_*******_Photo_Deletes_Anothe r_Knife_-_And_a_Pool_of_Blood
I just checked it, worked for me.
Big Boss
06-06-2010, 23:46
Hum, I'll try again.
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/36489_Another_Cropped_*******_Photo_Deletes_Anothe r_Knife_-_And_a_Pool_of_Blood
I just checked it, worked for me.
maybe I can help.
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/36489_Another_Cropped_*******_Photo_Deletes_Anothe r_Knife_-_And_a_Pool_of_Blood
incarcerated
06-07-2010, 00:52
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/06/07/israeli-navy-fires-palestinian-divers-gaza-medics-say-killed/
Israeli Navy Fires at Palestinian Divers Off Gaza, 5 Killed
Published June 07, 2010
The Israeli Navy said Monday its commandos killed five militants dressed in diving gear off the coast of Gaza -- while Palestinian medics claimed the dead were fishermen.
The five -- believed to be all men -- were spotted on a boat heading north towards Israel, from the Nuseirath refugee camp in the central Gaza Strip, an IDF spokesperson told The Jerusalem Post.
The spokesperson said they were heavily armed and dressed in diving gear -- and they were trying to swim to shore when a firefight erupted.
An army source told Haaretz that the firefight about 4:30am (local time) was a success for the Navy's elite commando unit, Shayetet 13, and prevented a rare attempt at a seaborne attack on Israel.
There were no Israeli casualties.
Medical sources told Al Jazeera that those killed on Monday were fishermen, but the Israeli navy claimed they were divers planning a "terror attack."
Four bodies were retrieved and taken to a hospital in central Gaza, with two of the dead suffering multiple gunshots to the head, Palestinian health official Moawiya Hassanain said. A fifth person was initially reported missing, feared dead....
ReefBlue
06-07-2010, 06:59
Does Iran even have a blue water Navy? To get from The Persian Gulf to the Med isn't exactly a short trip. Would there be any/enough pressure applied at the Suez Canal to not let them through to the Med in the first place?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/06/gaza-blockade-iran-aid-convoy
Iran has warned that it could send Revolutionary Guard naval units to escort humanitarian aid convoys seeking to break the Israeli blockade of Gaza – a move that would certainly be challenged by Israel.
Team Sergeant
06-07-2010, 07:13
Does Iran even have a blue water Navy? To get from The Persian Gulf to the Med isn't exactly a short trip. Would there be any/enough pressure applied at the Suez Canal to not let them through to the Med in the first place?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/06/gaza-blockade-iran-aid-convoy
Iran has warned that it could send Revolutionary Guard naval units to escort humanitarian aid convoys seeking to break the Israeli blockade of Gaza – a move that would certainly be challenged by Israel.
You made me laugh.....
Liechtenstein has a stronger navy than iran......
TS
Iran has warned that it could send Revolutionary Guard naval units to escort humanitarian aid convoys seeking to break the Israeli blockade of Gaza...
They just added two new escort vessels to their existing fleet... :rolleyes:
Richard's $.02 :munchin
craigepo
06-07-2010, 09:14
That is all.
THAT was funny. I remember, when doing ropemaster stuff, looking for the chem-lights at night before kicking guys out. They never brought up in class people with clubs on the LZ
THAT was funny. I remember, when doing ropemaster stuff, looking for the chem-lights at night before kicking guys out. They never brought up in class people with clubs on the LZ
When talking about Infils an old Team Sergeant told me one time - "Never get out of something you can't get back in."
But then again, that was back in the old days when things did go wrong every now and again.
ReefBlue
06-07-2010, 09:57
You made me laugh.....
Liechtenstein has a stronger navy than iran......
TS
I'll be here all week, don't forget to tip your waitress.
No doubt it is an empty threat. While we were tooling around in the gulf, the main threat from Iran's Navy seemed to be these boats that were 1/3rd our size, and we were only on a destroyer.
dualforces
06-07-2010, 15:05
*June 06, 2010 — After seeing passengers shot at close range they tried to grab the weapons to stop the killing. Kenneth Nichols O'Keefe was later beaten by the Israelis.
A US war veteran said yesterday he confronted Israeli commandos when they raided a Gaza-bound aid ship which he had boarded as a peace activist, Anatolia news agency reported.
Kenneth Nichols O'Keefe, his face bruised and still stained with blood, flew to Istanbul from Tel Aviv, on his way to Ireland, the report said.
"We overpowered three Israeli commandos. They looked at us... They thought we would kill them, but we let them go," O'Keefe said, adding he took the weapon of one of the soldiers and emptied it, according to Anatolia.
The ex-marine said he saw five people being killed on board the Mavi Marmara.
Thoughts? Something seems odd..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeUhwELoKWo
*APOLOGIES FOR THE DOUBLE POST..CAN'T SEEM TO DELETE IT!
Does he come from the same planet as Helen Thomas (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQcQdWBqt14&feature=player_embedded)? :rolleyes:
O'Keefe, basically let's just say he is a traitor. We can also throw in liar and poser and .... list goes on.
O'Keefe, basically let's just say he is a traitor. We can also throw in liar and poser and .... list goes on.
What do you mean by this statement, Sir? Are you saying he wasn't actually a Marine?
He seems to indeed be an interesting character.
Link to his website (http://www.worldcitizen.uk.net/)
incarcerated
06-08-2010, 01:58
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/israel-asked-u-s-to-increase-weapons-supply-haaretz-learns-1.294803
Israel asked U.S. to increase weapons supply, Haaretz learns
Published 01:53 08.06.10
By Amos Harel
Israel recently approached the United States with new requests for security-related purchases, Haaretz has learned. The requests included Joint Direct Attack Munition (JDAM ) bombs for the Israel Air Force, as well as a significant expansion of the emergency stores held by the U.S. army in Israel.
....Israel also requested JDAM bombs, seeking to significantly increase the number of such munitions already in its arsenal. The JDAM bombs have been used increasingly in recent operations, including in the Second Lebanon War in 2006 and Operation Cast Lead in 2008.
Israel is also seeking to increase the amount of gear held by the American army in their emergency stores in Israel by 50% - from $800 million to $1.2 billion. The Obama administration placed the stores in Israel in December, as part of a number of steps to improve U.S. assistance to Israeli security. To date, $600 million worth of American emergency equipment has been placed in Israel.
The American stores hold rockets, bombs, aircraft ammunition and armored vehicles, along with other weapons. The gear fully matches equipment already used by the Israel Defense Forces and is cataloged upon arrival to ensure quick and easy access at a time of need, pending permission from the United States. The American move has a dual purpose: bringing military equipment closer to areas in which Americans might need to fight, and assisting the U.S. ally should the need arise.
Senior military sources told Haaretz that the IDF attaches great importance to the stores; in the event of an extensive conflict, considerable time will pass before an airlift of ammunition and spare parts - similar to the one operated during the 1973 Arab-Israeli war - gets under way.
craigepo
06-08-2010, 07:49
Hollis may have been right about O'keefe.
Must read:
http://www.worldcitizen.uk.net/biography.htm
Streck-Fu
06-08-2010, 08:10
Hollis may have been right about O'keefe.
Must read:
http://www.worldcitizen.uk.net/biography.htm
Ummm, ok.....wow.
Born in California, I renounced my American citizenship on March 1, 2001 in Vancouver Canada. I now proudly hold Irish, Hawaiian and Palestinian citizenship.
Good timing...:rolleyes:
And I thought Hawaii is a state of the United States.
Peregrino
06-08-2010, 08:12
Hollis may have been right about O'keefe.
Must read:
http://www.worldcitizen.uk.net/biography.htm
Lenin's "Useful Idiots".
TrapLine
06-08-2010, 15:58
Reuters Admits Cropping Photos of Ship Clash, Denies Political Motive
By Ed Barnes Published June 08, 2010 FOXNews.com
The British-based Reuters news agency has been stung for the second time by charges that it edited politically sensitive photos in a way that casts Israel in a bad light. But this time Reuters claims it wasn’t at fault.
The news agency reacted to questions raised by an American blogger who showed that Reuters' photo service edited out knives and blood traces from pictures taken aboard the activist ship Mavi Marmara during a clash with Israeli commandos last week. Nine people were killed and scores were injured in the clash.
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/06/08/reuters-fake-photos-ihh-gaza-blockade-commandos/
I am sure there was no agenda behind the editing done to the pictures from the Mavi Marmara:rolleyes:. Besides, Reuters has never done this before...wait there was that time in 2006 with the smoke clouds. Hmmm?
incarcerated
06-09-2010, 01:48
http://af.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idAFTRE6580PD20100609
Obama to offer Gaza aid to Abbas in flotilla aftermath
Wed Jun 9, 2010 5:06am GMT
By Matt Spetalnick
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - President Barack Obama on Wednesday is expected to offer Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas fresh U.S. aid for Gaza as Washington seeks to contain the fallout over Israel's raid on a Gaza-bound flotilla....
The Obama administration has deemed "unsustainable" the three-year-old blockade, which Israel says is needed to stop weapons smuggling and Palestinians call collective punishment.
Expectations for a major breakthrough are low when the two leaders meet. But having pledged to help ease Gaza's plight, Obama will not send Abbas home empty-handed.
"The president and President Abbas will discuss steps to improve life for the people of Gaza, including U.S. support for specific projects to promote economic development and greater quality of life," a senior Obama administration official said....
Fethullah Gulen's cave of wonders
By Spengler
Fethullah Gulen's cave of wonders
We've been had, boys and girls: the international community, the world press, Israeli intelligence, the United Nations, the lot of us. The existential drama off the Gaza coast turns out to be a Turkish farce, the kind of low comedy that in 1782 Wolfgang Mozart set to music in the opera The Abduction from the Seraglio, with Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan playing the buffo-villain Osmin and Turkish self-exiled preacher and author Fethullah Gulen as the wise Pasha Selim.
In the post-American world, where every wannabe and used-to-be power makes momentary deals with other powers it plans to kill later, one makes inferences with caution. But I've seen this opera before.
Gulen, who lives in Pennsylvania in the United States, was silent as a jinn in a bottle about politics until last Friday, when he told the Wall Street Journal that the Free Gaza flotilla's attempt to run the Israeli blockage of Gaza "is a sign of defying authority, and will not lead to fruitful matters".
Erdogan's Islamists have run a two-year campaign of judicial activism against secular politicians, journalists and army officers, and secular critics long have alleged that Gulen is the clerical power behind the prime minister.
For the secretive Gulen to criticize the Turkish government in the midst of its public rage against Israel is an imam-bites-dog story. Gulen appears to have positioned himself as a mediator with Israel. Turkey does not want to end its longstanding relationship with Israel; it wants Israel to become a Turkish vassal-state in emulation of the old Ottoman model.
The killing last week by Israeli commandos of nine activists on board the Mavi Marmara served numerous goals, and Gulen's grand return to Turkish politics appears to be one of them. The question that every commentator in the Turkish press asked over the weekend, in one form or other, was: When will this voice of Muslim moderation re-emerge as an open force in the ruling Islamist party?
There is every indication that the Turkish government dispatched the Gaza flotilla in order to stage a violent confrontation. The Erdogan government announced that it had carefully vetted the passenger list
on the Mavi Marmara, which is to say that it knew that many of the passengers boarded with the intention of achieving "martyrdom" in a clash with the Israelis. They must have known this, for both the Turkish as well as the Palestinian press ran interviews with family members of some of the nine dead passengers explaining this intent.
The passengers' plans for martyrdom have been celebrated in the Arab press, and translated on the website of the Middle East Media Research Institute. The Turkish government also knew that the Insani Yardim Vakfi (IHH), the Islamic charity behind the Gaza flotilla, had ties to Hamas, for it had banned the IHH from charitable activity in Turkey a decade ago due to its connection to an organization that the previous secular government regarded as terrorist.
What explains Israel's apparent intelligence failure? Israel fields a small service tasked with operations in Iran, southern Lebanon
, Gaza and Syria among other prospective enemies. The Mossad probably relied on counterparts in Turkish intelligence - with whom it has a long history of collaboration - to cover the passenger list on the Mavi Marmara. The often-unreliable Debka claims that "Turkish intelligence duped Israel", which in this case is likely. By stealth or by sloth, Israel was roped into the comedy.
The star of the comedy, at least for the Turkish media, is Gulen. The 78-year-old imam has lived in self-imposed exile for two decades, due to charges by Turkish prosecutors that he led a conspiracy to subvert the secular state. He presides over Turkey's largest religious movement, commanding the loyalty of two-thirds of the Turkish police, according to some reports. His movement - a transnational civic society movement inspired by Gulen's teachings - also controls a network of elite schools that educate a tenth of the high school students in the Turkic world from Baku to Kyrgyzstan. And it reportedly controls businesses with tens of billions of dollars in assets.
His movement has been expelled from the Russian Federation
and his followers arrested in Uzbekistan by local authorities who believe his goal is a pan-Turkic union from the Bosporus to China's western Xinjiang province ("East Turkestan" to Gulen's movement).
In Mozart's Abduction, Belmonte and Pedrillo descend into the pasha's harem to rescue Kostanze; in last week's version, Israeli commandos descended onto the Mavi Marmara. And there is the stock villain of Viennese comedy, the Turk Osmin, played by Erdogan. The predictable occurs, and the prospective Shahidi become actual corpses. And Erdogan threatens Israel with terrible things, in emulation of Mozart's Osmin, who sings:
"First you'll be beheaded!
Then hanged!
Then spitted on hot stakes!
Then bound, and burned, and drowned, and finally skinned!"
This, one supposes, is supposed to frighten the children in the audience, who then will smile and clap when the Wise Old Man enters to urge moderation, caution and respect for authority, in the person of Gulen.
The Islamic shift in Turkey has been underway for years. As Rachel Sharon-Krespin wrote in the Middle East Quarterly (Winter 2009):
As Turkey's ruling Justice and Development Party (Adalet ve Kalkinma Partisi, AKP) begins its seventh year in leadership, Turkey is no longer the secular and democratic country that it was when the party took over. The AKP has conquered the bureaucracy and changed Turkey's fundamental identity. Prior to the AKP's rise, Ankara oriented itself toward the United States and Europe. Today, despite the rhetoric of European Union accession, Prime Minister Erdogan has turned Turkey away from Europe and toward Russia and Iran and re-oriented Turkish policy in the Middle East away from sympathy toward Israel and much more toward friendship with Hamas, Hezbollah, and Syria.
We are now in a post-American world, at least where the Barack Obama administration is concerned, and Turkey like its neighbors is scrambling for position. What does Turkey want in a post-American world?
The question itself seems stupid, for the obvious answer is: "Whatever it can get." It wants to become the dominant regional power rather than Iran, casting a wolfish glance at Iran's Azeri population, who speak Turkish rather than Persian. It wants to "mediate" the Israeli-Palestinian issue and is not squeamish about its prospective partners. It wants Palestine to be an Ottoman province once again. It wants to be the energy hub for the Middle East and the outlet for Russian and Azerbaijani pipelines.
But it is a bit more complex than that. Modern Turkey is an artificial construct, rather than a nation-state in the Western sense. Since the Turks completed the conquest of Byzantine Anatolia in the middle of the 14th century, a relatively thin crust of ethnic Turks has ruled over subject peoples. The Ottoman Empire at various points in its history had a Christian majority; its civil service at different points was more Venetian, Armenian and Jewish then Turkish; its self-understanding was global and religious, that is, as the caliphate of Islam, rather than as a national entity.
When World War I reduced Turkey to an Anatolian rump, Kemal Ataturk attempted to impose "Turkishness" as a secular, national ideology on the European model. To make the country "Turkish", several million Orthodox Christians were estimated to have been killed. The hollowness of Ataturk's secular construct, modeled on the nastier European national movements, made it vulnerable from the beginning. The army was the only institution that could hold Turkish society together.
What will replace Ataturk's secularism? I wrote two years ago:
If political Islam prevails in Turkey, what will emerge is not the same country in different coloration, but a changeling, an entirely different nation. In a 1997 speech that earned him a prison term, Erdogan warned of two fundamentally different camps, the secularists who followed Kemal, and Muslims who followed sharia. These are not simply different camps, however, but different configurations of Turkish society at the molecular level. Like a hologram, Turkey offers two radically different images when viewed from different angles. Turkish Islam, the ordering of the Anatolian villages and the Istanbul slums, represents a nation radically different than the secularism of the army, the civil service, the universities and the Western-leaning elite of Istanbul. If the Islamic side of Turkey rises, the result will be unrecognizable. Turkey in the throes of Islamic revolution? Asia Times Online, July 22, 2008.
Gulen's pan-Turkic mysticism views Turkey as the center of a new caliphate uniting the Muslim world. He preaches a "Turkish renaissance" with a modern spin "to ensure that religion and science go together and that science penetrates not only individual lives, but also social life". His schools educate the elite of the Turkic world across Asia. Gulen's interest, to be sure, focuses on the Turkish state, whose bureaucracy is now filled with his acolytes. But unlike Ataturk's secular nationalism, which tried to redefine Turkey on a European model, Gulen's Islamism is inherently expansionist.
What Gulen means by science is of an entirely different order than the Western understanding. This "imam from rural Anatolia", as his website describes him, inhabits the magical world of jinns and sorcery. Science is just a powerful form of magic of which Turks should avail themselves to enhance their power, as he writes in his 2005 book, The Essentials of the Islamic Faith:
Jinn are conscious beings charged with divine obligations. Recent discoveries in biology make it clear that God created beings particular to each realm. They were created before Adam and Eve, and were responsible for cultivating and improving the world. Although God superseded them with us, he did not exempt them from religious obligations.
As nothing is difficult for God almighty, he has provided human beings, angels and jinns with the strength appropriate for their functions and duties. As he uses angels to supervise the movements of celestial bodies, he allows to humans to rule the Earth, dominate matter, build civilizations and produce technology.
Power and strength are not limited to the physical world, nor are they proportional to bodily size ... Our eyes can travel long distances in an instant. Our imagination can transcend time and space all at once ... winds can uproot trees and demolish large buildings. A young, thin plant shoot can split rocks and reach the sunlight. The power of energy, whose existence is known through its effect, is apparent to everybody. All of this shows that something's power is not proportional to its physical size; rather the immaterial world dominates the physical world, and immaterial entities are far more powerful than material ones.
He goes on to warn about sorcery and the danger of spells; he allows that it is meritorious to break spells (for evil witches are everywhere casting spells), although a good Muslim should not make a profession of this, for then he might be mistaken for a sorcerer himself. The notion that "wind" and "energy" are "immaterial" forces exudes the magical world view of an Anatolian peasant; the miracles of technology are the secret actions of jinn, just as the planetary movements are the actions of angels. When Gulen talks about the union of religion and science, what he means quite concretely is that the magical view of jinns in the Koran aids the believer in enlisting these "immaterial" forces to enhance the power of Islam. Science for Gulen means the management of jinn.
Gulen, in short, is a shaman, a relic of pre-history preserved in the cultural amber of eastern Anatolia. Kemalism was sterile, brutal, secular and rational; the "moderate Islam" of Gulen is magical, a mystic's vision of Ottoman restoration and a pan-Turkic caliphate.
The Erdogan government crafted the Mavi Marmara affair as a piece of theater, preparing the deus ex machina (god from the machine) entrance of Gulen himself, more Pagliaccio than Apollo, to be sure. The trouble is that the Turkish Islamists live in a world of magical realism in which theater and reality, human and jinn, desire and achievement blend into a mystical blur. Gulen explains in his The Essentials of the Islamic Faith that Allah created the jinn out of fire. And that is what the apologists for Turkish Islamism are playing with.
Spengler is channeled by David P Goldman, senior editor of First Things (www.firstthings.com).
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/LF09Ak02.html
IMO - Turkey showed their true colors when they wouldn't allow the 4th ID to pass through into Iraq during OIF1 after allowing us to use Turkey as a staging base for Provide Comfort and Southern Watch. They can kiss my wazoo...and OBTW...they will never gain full member status within the EU no matter how hard they try.
Richard's $.02 :munchin
Peace Frog
06-10-2010, 06:21
Haha this is great...
Israel apologizes for sending link to flotilla parody
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ynews/ynews_wl2491
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KUcv452KbU
We con the world...nice. :D
Richard :munchin
SidewalkOfDoom
06-10-2010, 08:01
The only way Israel is going to survive is if it caters to both the Palestinians and Israelis. Some Israelis (and a lot of Evangelical Christians in America) want to see all of Israel and the Palestinian territories ethnically cleansed of Arabs and the reconstruction of the Temple of Solomon (which would destroy the Dome of the Rock). Lots of Evangelical Christians believe that the reconstruction of the Temple of Solomon will usher in the end of the world. They even have organizations to buy-out Palestinian property at ridiculous prices.
Like a poster previously said in this thread, the peace process died with Rabin. It doesn't take a genius to realize that no sane Palestinian would accept Benjamin Netanyahu's peace proposal. I say that the U.S. government should cut the annual three billion dollars of welfare checks we give to Israel and just stay out of the area. Israel will eventually realize that their self-destructive policies are in a dire need of revision.
I advocate a one-state solution -- neither a Jewish nor an Arab state. It would be secular and wouldn't respect one religion over another, but I realize that it's only a dream and will most likely never happen.
SidewalkOfDoom
06-10-2010, 08:36
I would have torn his ass apart in a debate!
First thing I would have opened with: "Can you describe the physical color of religion?":confused:
Stay safe.
Not all Palestinians are Muslim. In fact according to almost all sources, Palestinian Christians blame Israel for their woes.
Not all Palestinians are Muslim. In fact according to almost all sources, Palestinian Christians blame Israel for their woes.
Not all Jews are white, what is your point?
craigepo
06-10-2010, 08:55
Israel will eventually realize that their self-destructive policies are in a dire need of revision.
Okay.
Let's say that you are now President Sidewalk of Doom, leader of Israel. Give us your plan, consistent with your above-mentioned opinion, that will ensure the freedom, safety, security, and continuity of both the Israeli land and its people.
SidewalkOfDoom
06-10-2010, 11:56
Not all Jews are white, what is your point?
Did you read the quote?
Okay.
Let's say that you are now President Sidewalk of Doom, leader of Israel. Give us your plan, consistent with your above-mentioned opinion, that will ensure the freedom, safety, security, and continuity of both the Israeli land and its people.
It would take decades, but...
Stop all illegal settlement building. Try to establish peace with Fatah and Hamas, but keep the military on their toes. Try as hard as possible to solve disputes diplomatically, because every military operations Israel partakes in only strengthens extremist support. Pull out of the Golan Heights. Hold diplomatic relations with all members of the Arab League. Allow ALL materials (excluding weapons and ammunition) to enter Gaza. Establish public hospitals and schools in Palestinian territory. Tear down the West Bank barriers. Propose a one-state solution to the U.N. and Arab League every year. After relations cool down, end the blockade and ease up border crossings. Hopefully after many years, both the U.N. and Arab League accepts the one-state solution.
It will be a bumpy ride, but one with the best interests of both the Israelis and the Palestinians. The key is to implement policy changes over a long period of time.
Of course I'd probably be assassinated by right-wing groups in Israel.
Streck-Fu
06-10-2010, 12:15
It would take decades, but...
Pull out of the Golan Heights.
Why does Israel occupy the Heights now? What happens if the same thing occurs which prompted them to take it in the first place?
Allow ALL materials (excluding weapons and ammunition) to enter Gaza.
They do. And even offer to deliver it after verifying to be free of weapons but it was refused.
Try to establish peace with Fatah and Hamas…
Have you read the Hamas Charter? Just curious… :)
How does the State of Israel negotiate peace with organizations (Hamas and Fatah) whose opening position is the extermination of all Israelis and the destruction of the State? And...oh by the way, those are the stated aims of all of fundamentalist islam...against the infidel.
Did you read the quote?
It would take decades, but...
Stop all illegal settlement building. Try to establish peace with Fatah and Hamas, but keep the military on their toes. Try as hard as possible to solve disputes diplomatically, because every military operations Israel partakes in only strengthens extremist support. Pull out of the Golan Heights. Hold diplomatic relations with all members of the Arab League. Allow ALL materials (excluding weapons and ammunition) to enter Gaza. Establish public hospitals and schools in Palestinian territory. Tear down the West Bank barriers. Propose a one-state solution to the U.N. and Arab League every year. After relations cool down, end the blockade and ease up border crossings. Hopefully after many years, both the U.N. and Arab League accepts the one-state solution.
It will be a bumpy ride, but one with the best interests of both the Israelis and the Palestinians. The key is to implement policy changes over a long period of time.
Of course I'd probably be assassinated by right-wing groups in Israel.
Obviously I read the quote or I wouldn't have responded. My point is that you seem to be making it about the color of the Palestinians skin, by pointing out that Palestinian Christians are hurt by the Israeli's acts as well. If it wasn't about race you would have simply said Christians.
To your second point, define an illegal settlement. I have no doubt that some of the settlements have been placed on Palestinian land by displacing their people. BUT..... Did the Israeli’s get some of that land through winning the war launched by their Arab and Palestinian neighbors? If you had a neighbor who launched rockets into your yard and tried to kill your family every day, would you like to build a barrier around yourself to help protect your family?
Also, what do you presume the Israeli’s do to stop the homicide bombers that blow themselves up in cafes, buses, bazaars, with the sole intent of inflicting as many casualties on the Israeli civilian population as possible? Or how about Hamas and Hezbollah that hide among the civilian population when they launch their rocket attacks against Israel and then scream murder when the Israelis’ dare to take them out. I don't see Israeli troops launching attacks against the Palestinians and then running and hiding amongst the civilian population.
I agree that Israel is not blameless in all of this. But lest you conveniently forget, the Israelis’ were willing to give up a lot for peace, and Yasser Arafat spit in their face. How do you establish peace with organizations that won't even recognize your right to exist, let alone live?
How do you reconcile the fact that the Israelis’ were given a piece of barren land in 1948 and turned it into a thriving economy, while the Palestinian leadership has taken money from all over the world, supposedly to help "support" the Palestinian people yet they all live in refugee camps and squalor. How much money did Arafat’s wife make off with when he died?
Is there any doubt if the Palestinians had a nuke they would have used it against Israel by now?
SidewalkOfDoom
06-10-2010, 14:52
Obviously I read the quote or I wouldn't have responded. My point is that you seem to be making it about the color of the Palestinians skin, by pointing out that Palestinian Christians are hurt by the Israeli's acts as well. If it wasn't about race you would have simply said Christians.
To your second point, define an illegal settlement. I have no doubt that some of the settlements have been placed on Palestinian land by displacing their people. BUT..... Did the Israeli’s get some of that land through winning the war launched by their Arab and Palestinian neighbors? If you had a neighbor who launched rockets into your yard and tried to kill your family every day, would you like to build a barrier around yourself to help protect your family?
Also, what do you presume the Israeli’s do to stop the homicide bombers that blow themselves up in cafes, buses, bazaars, with the sole intent of inflicting as many casualties on the Israeli civilian population as possible? Or how about Hamas and Hezbollah that hide among the civilian population when they launch their rocket attacks against Israel and then scream murder when the Israelis’ dare to take them out. I don't see Israeli troops launching attacks against the Palestinians and then running and hiding amongst the civilian population.
I agree that Israel is not blameless in all of this. But lest you conveniently forget, the Israelis’ were willing to give up a lot for peace, and Yasser Arafat spit in their face. How do you establish peace with organizations that won't even recognize your right to exist, let alone live?
How do you reconcile the fact that the Israelis’ were given a piece of barren land in 1948 and turned it into a thriving economy, while the Palestinian leadership has taken money from all over the world, supposedly to help "support" the Palestinian people yet they all live in refugee camps and squalor. How much money did Arafat’s wife make off with when he died?
Is there any doubt if the Palestinians had a nuke they would have used it against Israel by now?
Yes, I view it more of an ethnic conflict than a religious one.
The reason why the Palestinians fight that way is because they stand no chance toe to toe with the modern Israeli war machine. It's called guerrilla warfare. The best way to stop terrorist attacks is human intelligence and the use of drones to spot potential rocket attacks. That being said, if they are crafty there isn't much you can do to prevent attacks.
I agree Israelis are willing to give up a lot, I read recently that around 60% of Israelis want to establish dialogue with Hamas. The problem is that the people in power (like the rest of the world) have their own agenda. Look at Netanyahu's demands and you can understand why Arabs rejected it.
The last paragraph is a straw man.
Anyway I'm done with this thread because debating politics over the internet doesn't change anyone's mind.
SidewalkOfDoom
06-10-2010, 14:53
Why does Israel occupy the Heights now? What happens if the same thing occurs which prompted them to take it in the first place?
They do. And even offer to deliver it after verifying to be free of weapons but it was refused.
Then they'll easily take it again. Israel has nuclear and chemical weapons, and a stronger army than anyone else in the region.
Only an estimated 20% of all aid gets to Gaza. Medicine, wheelchairs, food, etc. get confiscated for no reason.
Have you read the Hamas Charter? Just curious… :)
Doesn't mean you can't try. The reason why Hamas gained political power over Fatah is because Hamas builds schools, hospitals, and other social welfare programs. If you want to sway public opinion in this area, you have to develop social welfare programs.
Then they'll easily take it again. Israel has nuclear and chemical weapons, and a stronger army than anyone else in the region........................
Sidewalk - you really need to up your game if you want to stick around.
Your posts in this thread read like a dog chasing it's tail. Peace, Love, group hug - use the big stick. No focus - but lots of rhetoric.
Yes, I view it more of an ethnic conflict than a religious one.
The reason why the Palestinians fight that way is because they stand no chance toe to toe with the modern Israeli war machine. It's called guerrilla warfare. The best way to stop terrorist attacks is human intelligence and the use of drones to spot potential rocket attacks. That being said, if they are crafty there isn't much you can do to prevent attacks.
I agree Israelis are willing to give up a lot, I read recently that around 60% of Israelis want to establish dialogue with Hamas. The problem is that the people in power (like the rest of the world) have their own agenda. Look at Netanyahu's demands and you can understand why Arabs rejected it.
The last paragraph is a straw man.
Anyway I'm done with this thread because debating politics over the internet doesn't change anyone's mind.
Oh contrair.... minds get changed on this site all the time. You just have to either be able to back up your claims with facts (and my last statement was not a strawman, it was an attempt to see how you view the Palestinian's plight given that they recieve so much foreign aid, yet seem to do nothing with it) or willing to admit that you may be wrong. I admit I am wrong all the time, just ask the Team Sergeant.:D
I also admit that I don't know what the answer is to this problem, other than it has been going on for thousands of years, and doesn't seem to be on a path to solution any time soon. There is enough blame to go around on both sides.
I simply deplore the fact that in the MSM the Israelis are seen as the sole "bad guy" in this ongoing drama. The Arab world loves to use the Palestinian people as a means of drumming up hate for Israel and the West. Problem is the truth, they probably hate the Palestinian people more than the Israelis do. If they didn't, they wouldn't be in the plight they are now, there fellow Muslim Brothers would have seen to their welfare.
JMHO
mojaveman
06-10-2010, 15:32
I also admit that I don't know what the answer is to this problem, other than it has been going on for thousands of years, and doesn't seem to be on a path to solution any time soon. There is enough blame to go around on both sides.
JMHO
Couldn't agree more...
Doesn't mean you can't try. The reason why Hamas gained political power over Fatah is because Hamas builds schools, hospitals, and other social welfare programs. If you want to sway public opinion in this area, you have to develop social welfare programs.
FWIW, in order to have a lasting peace, IMO - both sides must have willing participants. Consequently, the Palestinian Arab voters freely chose to be led by a group of terrorists and suicide-bomb architects. I have no pity on them. The very principles of the Hamas Charter is in no way conducive for a lasting peace with Israel. Following are some highlights.
"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."
"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."
The Hamas Charter is a classical Muslim Brotherhood Islamist document. It declares that Jihad (in the sense of armed battle) is the only solution.
"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews."
Could any amount of dialogue on part of the Jews change the ideology of the folks in the below video ?
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i08L09V0_sg
Could Hitler, Himmler, or Al-Husseini have been reasoned with?
The very principals of the Hamas Charter...
Ya gotta keep a close eye on those alternative school administrators...;)
Richard :munchin
HINT: principal vs principle + charter ;)
Ya gotta keep a close eye on those alternative school administrators.
Being the hick from western NC, do I get a pass….LOL :D
SidewalkOfDoom
06-10-2010, 17:47
Oh contrair.... minds get changed on this site all the time. You just have to either be able to back up your claims with facts (and my last statement was not a strawman, it was an attempt to see how you view the Palestinian's plight given that they recieve so much foreign aid, yet seem to do nothing with it) or willing to admit that you may be wrong. I admit I am wrong all the time, just ask the Team Sergeant.:D
I also admit that I don't know what the answer is to this problem, other than it has been going on for thousands of years, and doesn't seem to be on a path to solution any time soon. There is enough blame to go around on both sides.
I simply deplore the fact that in the MSM the Israelis are seen as the sole "bad guy" in this ongoing drama. The Arab world loves to use the Palestinian people as a means of drumming up hate for Israel and the West. Problem is the truth, they probably hate the Palestinian people more than the Israelis do. If they didn't, they wouldn't be in the plight they are now, there fellow Muslim Brothers would have seen to their welfare.
JMHO
I agree with you that both sides are to blame, especially the neighboring Arabs who don't really care about the Palestinians but want to see Israel wiped off the map.
Green Light
06-10-2010, 19:48
Sidewalk. Try this link. It'll probably double your knowledge of the history of what happened in Israel. Don't worry, it only takes a couple of minutes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HelIHTveKQw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HelIHTveKQw
Nice! Thanks Green Light, added it to my favorites…
I like the Horowitz version too > http://www.terrorismawareness.org/what-really-happened/
olhamada
06-10-2010, 21:44
I also admit that I don't know what the answer is to this problem, other than it has been going on for thousands of years, .....
JMHO
Actuallly, it hasn't, though this is what many here in the West want us to believe. "Christians" have historically been more of a problem for the Jews than any Muslim population. Remember the Crusades, Inquisition, Hitler, etc...., while Arabs and Jews have lived in relative peace and harmony for centuries. In fact, there were, and still are Jewish quarters in many ME cities such as Beirut, Sana, Baghdad (before the war), etc... with synagogues and all, and the Jews there haven't had a problem - at least no more than anyone else.
In the ME, it is the Zionists that the Arabs hate - not the Jews. The difference? Politics - not religion.
Most of the ME has been rather moderate till late when it comes to Islam. Of course, the tide has turned in the past couple of decades, and now has also become more of a "religious" thing because of the rise of zealotry fueled by the politics of the region.
People always want to use God to acheive their political aims. Doesn't matter where you are.
Green Light
06-11-2010, 15:52
In the ME, it is the Zionists that the Arabs hate - not the Jews. The difference? Politics - not religion.
Falsch weider mal, Buckwheat! It is tribal/religious. Politics is just a side show. Yes, they really do hate the Jews. (They hate you, too, you wacky infidel).
They have gotten rid of 10 tribes so far. Only Judah and Benjamin (now incorporated into Judah = Jews) are left. They'll not rest until they are gone, too.
In the ME, it is the Zionists that the Arabs hate - not the Jews. The difference? Politics - not religion.
The problem with Islam is that it is a political system, culture, and a religion - a supremacist ideology that divides the world in two spheres, Dar al-Islam and Dar al-Harb. The religion part is what is required for a Muslim to avoid Hell and enter paradise. The political system of Islam determines the treatment of Kafirs and the governance of Muslims - the theo-political aspect cannot be separated.
Green Light
06-11-2010, 17:24
Well said.
How do you reconcile the fact that the Israelis’ were given a piece of barren land in 1948 and turned it into a thriving economy,
Actually, they were not given anything, they declared their independence in 1948 when the British pulled out. UN Resolution 181 allowed for a Jewish state, an Arab state, and Jerusalem as an international city administered by the UN. The Jews accepted, the Arabs did not and the resolution was never carried out because the Arabs attacked Israel in 1948. The UN didn't recognize Israel until 1949.
Green Light
06-11-2010, 20:12
Actually, they were not given anything, they declared their independence in 1948 when the British pulled out. UN Resolution 181 allowed for a Jewish state, an Arab state, and Jerusalem as an international city administered by the UN. The Jews accepted, the Arabs did not and the resolution was never carried out because the Arabs attacked Israel in 1948. The UN didn't recognize Israel until 1949.
Independence was declared on 14 May 1948 and the Arab world attacked on 15 May. You can't have the armies of five countries attack at the same time without several months of pre-planning, especially considering the communications capabilities of the times. It's intuitively obvious to the casual observer that the Arabs planned to drive the Jews into the sea from the beginning, that the partition was a ruse. In fact, as soon as the cease fire was signed, Jordon annexed the "Palestinian" area. They took the lion's share of their lands, not Israel.
Bottom line: while the Arabs hate the Jews, none of the Arab states want Palestinians within their borders.
Arabs began attacking Jewish targets in December of 47. They expanded attacks as the British pulled out, the Arab countries were waiting for the British to leave to launch the invasion. The British were scheduled to complete the withdrawal on May 15th.
mark46th
06-12-2010, 09:17
This has been going on for 6000 years. Why does anyone think it will end in our lifetime?
mojaveman
06-12-2010, 10:12
Anyone want to speculate on how the problem will end? Palestinian birthrates are almost double what Jewish birthrates are. Out of a population of nearly seven million the majority are still Jews but in time the demographics will change. Walls, borders, and barriers can only contain so many people. The distant future doesn't look too good for the Israelis.
greenberetTFS
06-12-2010, 14:49
What really pisses me off is the big O's non support of Israel......... :rolleyes: They where once in high esteem with our country under all the presidents as far back as I can remember.......:( Big O's manage to kill that relationship in just over a year........:confused:
Big Teddy :munchin
Green Light
06-12-2010, 15:27
What really pisses me off is the big O's non support of Israel......... :rolleyes: They where once in high esteem with our country under all the presidents as far back as I can remember.......:( Big O's manage to kill that relationship in just over a year........:confused:
Big Teddy :munchin
B.O.'s true intent and loyalties are not far from the surface. It appears IMO that he holds more in common with his Muslim roots than his American. When it comes to "nut cuttin'" time, I don't expect him to stand with Israel.
olhamada
06-13-2010, 08:03
B.O.'s true intent and loyalties are not far from the surface. It appears IMO that he holds more in common with his Muslim roots than his American.
You got that right! I wonder why so many of our countrymen are with him lock, step, and barrel - and can't see past his rhetoric to his true colors.
Green Light
06-13-2010, 09:16
You got that right! I wonder why so many of our countrymen are with him lock, step, and barrel - and can't see past his rhetoric to his true colors.
Let me elaborate on this. I don't think that he a Muslim. That said, he's grown up with Muslims, socialists, and communists all his life. Since we're the sum of all our experiences, what he's seeing is colored through some lenses that are rather anti-Jew, as are Muslims, socialists, and communists.
When he said that he didn't hear "Reverend" Jeremiah Wright saying anything untoward, I believe he was telling the truth. What he heard was the regular old stuff that he'd heard all his life. He thinks that Wright and the rest of the WH flock of penguins is mainstream.
incarcerated
06-22-2010, 23:08
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704198004575311011923686570.html?m od=rss_Today's_Most_Popular
Israel and the Surrender of the West
OPINION JUNE 21, 2010
By SHELBY STEELE
The most interesting voice in all the fallout surrounding the Gaza flotilla incident is that sanctimonious and meddling voice known as "world opinion." At every turn "world opinion," like a school marm, takes offense and condemns Israel for yet another infraction of the world's moral sensibility. And this voice has achieved an international political legitimacy so that even the silliest condemnation of Israel is an opportunity for self-congratulation.
Rock bands now find moral imprimatur in canceling their summer tour stops in Israel (Elvis Costello, the Pixies, the Gorillaz, the Klaxons). A demonstrator at an anti-Israel rally in New York carries a sign depicting the skull and crossbones drawn over the word "Israel." White House correspondent Helen Thomas, in one of the ugliest incarnations of this voice, calls on Jews to move back to Poland. And of course the United Nations and other international organizations smugly pass one condemnatory resolution after another against Israel while the Obama administration either joins in or demurs with a wink.
This is something new in the world, this almost complete segregation of Israel in the community of nations. And if Helen Thomas's remarks were pathetic and ugly, didn't they also point to the end game of this isolation effort: the nullification of Israel's legitimacy as a nation? There is a chilling familiarity in all this. One of the world's oldest stories is playing out before our eyes: The Jews are being scapegoated again.
"World opinion" labors mightily to make Israel look like South Africa looked in its apartheid era—a nation beyond the moral pale. And it projects onto Israel the same sin that made apartheid South Africa so untouchable: white supremacy. Somehow "world opinion" has moved away from the old 20th century view of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict as a complicated territorial dispute between two long-suffering peoples. Today the world puts its thumb on the scale for the Palestinians by demonizing the stronger and whiter Israel as essentially a colonial power committed to the "occupation" of a beleaguered Third World people.
This is now—figuratively in some quarters and literally in others—the moral template through which Israel is seen. It doesn't matter that much of the world may actually know better. This template has become propriety itself, a form of good manners, a political correctness. Thus it is good manners to be outraged at Israel's blockade of Gaza, and it is bad manners to be outraged at Hamas's recent attack on a school because it educated girls, or at the thousands of rockets Hamas has fired into Israeli towns—or even at the fact that Hamas is armed and funded by Iran. The world wants independent investigations of Israel, not of Hamas.
One reason for this is that the entire Western world has suffered from a deficit of moral authority for decades now. Today we in the West are reluctant to use our full military might in war lest we seem imperialistic; we hesitate to enforce our borders lest we seem racist; we are reluctant to ask for assimilation from new immigrants lest we seem xenophobic; and we are pained to give Western Civilization primacy in our educational curricula lest we seem supremacist. Today the West lives on the defensive, the very legitimacy of our modern societies requiring constant dissociation from the sins of the Western past—racism, economic exploitation, imperialism and so on.
When the Israeli commandos boarded that last boat in the flotilla and, after being attacked with metal rods, killed nine of their attackers, they were acting in a world without the moral authority to give them the benefit of the doubt. By appearances they were shock troopers from a largely white First World nation willing to slaughter even "peace activists" in order to enforce a blockade against the impoverished brown people of Gaza. Thus the irony: In the eyes of a morally compromised Western world, the Israelis looked like the Gestapo.
This, of course, is not the reality of modern Israel. Israel does not seek to oppress or occupy—and certainly not to annihilate—the Palestinians in the pursuit of some atavistic Jewish supremacy. But the merest echo of the shameful Western past is enough to chill support for Israel in the West.
The West also lacks the self-assurance to see the Palestinians accurately. Here again it is safer in the white West to see the Palestinians as they advertise themselves—as an "occupied" people denied sovereignty and simple human dignity by a white Western colonizer. The West is simply too vulnerable to the racist stigma to object to this "neo-colonial" characterization.
Our problem in the West is understandable. We don't want to lose more moral authority than we already have. So we choose not to see certain things that are right in front of us. For example, we ignore that the Palestinians—and for that matter much of the Middle East—are driven to militancy and war not by legitimate complaints against Israel or the West but by an internalized sense of inferiority. If the Palestinians got everything they want—a sovereign nation and even, let's say, a nuclear weapon—they would wake the next morning still hounded by a sense of inferiority. For better or for worse, modernity is now the measure of man.
And the quickest cover for inferiority is hatred. The problem is not me; it is them. And in my victimization I enjoy a moral and human grandiosity—no matter how smart and modern my enemy is, I have the innocence that defines victims. I may be poor but my hands are clean. Even my backwardness and poverty only reflect a moral superiority, while my enemy's wealth proves his inhumanity.
In other words, my hatred is my self-esteem. This must have much to do with why Yasser Arafat rejected Ehud Barak's famous Camp David offer of 2000 in which Israel offered more than 90% of what the Palestinians had demanded. To have accepted that offer would have been to forgo hatred as consolation and meaning. Thus it would have plunged the Palestinians—and by implication the broader Muslim world—into a confrontation with their inferiority relative to modernity. Arafat knew that without the Jews to hate, an all-defining cohesion would leave the Muslim world. So he said no to peace.
And this recalcitrance in the Muslim world, this attraction to the consolations of hatred, is one of the world's great problems today—whether in the suburbs of Paris and London, or in Kabul and Karachi, or in Queens, N.Y., and Gaza. The fervor for hatred as deliverance may not define the Muslim world, but it has become a drug that consoles elements of that world in the larger competition with the West. This is the problem we in the West have no easy solution to, and we scapegoat Israel—admonish it to behave better—so as not to feel helpless. We see our own vulnerability there.
Mr. Steele is a senior fellow at Stanford University's Hoover Institution.
Elections have consequences.
Maybe the US's stance on Israel the past 1 1/2 years has given some the impression to some that now would be a good time to act.
Where is the "Great Leader" as all this is going down?
For all you "peace at any price" folks - wipe Israel of the face of the map tonight. In the morning what will have changed? Nothing. The terrorists leading the Islamic states will still need to focus the people on an outside enemy - to keep them from noticing that their existance is crap because of their leaders - not the Great Satan.
And Turkey? We've had threads around here for years about her slide into the Islamist camp.
Yes I agree!!!
olhamada
06-23-2010, 09:09
Let me elaborate on this. I don't think that he a Muslim. That said, he's grown up with Muslims, socialists, and communists all his life. Since we're the sum of all our experiences, what he's seeing is colored through some lenses that are rather anti-Jew, as are Muslims, socialists, and communists.
When he said that he didn't hear "Reverend" Jeremiah Wright saying anything untoward, I believe he was telling the truth. What he heard was the regular old stuff that he'd heard all his life. He thinks that Wright and the rest of the WH flock of penguins is mainstream.
Agreed - especially about being a product of his upbringing and conditioning.
However, as to whether or not he's a Muslim, this video, though not definitive, is rather enlightening: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XE9mZCRX2mg
olhamada
06-23-2010, 09:23
Falsch weider mal, Buckwheat! It is tribal/religious. Politics is just a side show. Yes, they really do hate the Jews. (They hate you, too, you wacky infidel).
They have gotten rid of 10 tribes so far. Only Judah and Benjamin (now incorporated into Judah = Jews) are left. They'll not rest until they are gone, too.
:D
Yes, it is tribal/religious - but not just focused on the Jews (until Zionism appeared on the radar in the early 1900s).
My point is that the Jews and Arabs, contrary to popular current belief, have gotten along fine (no worse than Arab vs Arab) and even coexisted without issue until recently (past century). If you recall, it was the Arabs who protected the Jews against the Christians for hundreds of years.
There has been a resurgence of Islamic fervor and "orthodoxy" (read violence) of late, but I believe this was not spurred on by Jews being Jewish, but by a segment of radicalized Muslims wanting power and control. They are using political issues to move the masses and achieve their goals. Of course, many believe that what they are doing is "God's work" in protecting Muslim lands from the infidels.
Islam is a danger, and I believe that Satan (yes I believe he exists) is using them to try to conquer the world. I don't think they will stop until they are stopped. However, I believe we are weakening as a nation and are rapidly losing our will, our resolve, and our ability to stop them.
Source is here (http://cnn.site.printthis.clickability.com/pt/cpt?action=cpt&title=Israel+rebuffs+Turkish+demand+for+raid+apolo gy+-+CNN.com&expire=&urlID=430387982&fb=Y&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnn.com%2F2010%2FWORLD%2Fmeas t%2F07%2F05%2Fisrael.turkey.no.apology%2Findex.htm l%3Fhpt%3DT2&partnerID=211911).Israel rebuffs Turkish demand for raid apology
By the CNN Wire Staff
STORY HIGHLIGHTS
* NEW: Foreign Minister: Israel "has no intention of apologizing to Turkey"
* Turkey demands apology or international inquiry, or else "ties will be cut," paper reports
* Dispute comes after Israeli raid on Gaza aid flotilla left nine Turks dead
* Israel says it must blockade Gaza to keep weapons from terrorists
Jerusalem -- "Israel will never apologize for defending its citizens," a high-ranking Israeli government official told CNN Monday, after Turkey reportedly demanded an apology or an inquiry into an Israeli raid on an aid ship that killed nine Turkish citizens.
"Of course we regret the loss of life, but it was not the Israeli side that initiated the violence," the official said.
Israeli Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman later rejected Ankara's demand more bluntly.
"We have no intention of apologizing to Turkey," he said, according to the ministry.
Israel is "concerned" about what it sees from Turkey, he said, but added: "These sort of expressions are a part of a Turkish change of direction and a new Turkish policy, which is an internal matter we cannot get involved in."
Hurriyet newspaper quoted Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu on Monday as saying that Turkey would "cut off relations" with Israel unless "they either apologize or accept an international commission and its report."
"(The) Israelis have three options: They will either apologize or acknowledge an international-impartial inquiry and its conclusion. Otherwise, our diplomatic ties will be cut off," Davutoglu told Hurriyet early Sunday in an interview on his plane returning from Kyrgyzstan, the newspaper reported.
The Foreign Ministry later claimed the minister had been misquoted, saying he actually said that without an apology or inquiry, "it will not be possible for our relationship to improve."
A Turkish Foreign Ministry official told CNN that Davutoglu's comments were " a strong warning to Israel," yet did not exactly mean ending relations.
The wide-ranging military and diplomatic alliance between the Jewish state and its powerful regional ally has been badly shaken by the May 31 Israeli raid on a flotilla of aid ships bound for Gaza.
The six vessels in the convoy were stopped by Israeli commandos on May 31. Nine activists were killed after violence erupted on one of the ships, the Mavi Marmara.
Israel said its troops were attacked with knives, metal poles and other objects. But passengers on board the boat insist they were fired upon without provocation.
Senior officials from Israel and Turkey held a secret meeting in Europe last week, the first ministerial meeting between the two countries since the Gaza flotilla incident, the two countries said Thursday.
Davutoglu met Israeli Industry and Trade Minister Benjamin Ben-Eliezer on Wednesday, the two sides said, but offered different locations for the meeting. Each also said the meeting happened on the other's initiative.
Separately, Spanish Prime Minister Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero said the foreign ministers of Spain, France and Italy will visit Gaza this month, a Zapatero spokesman told CNN Monday. It was not immediately clear if the three foreign ministers would be going together or separately.
Zapatero made the comment at a news conference in Madrid with visiting Syrian President Bashar al-Assad, said the Zapatero aide.
But the French Foreign Ministry said the visit had not been confirmed. Italy did not immediately respond to CNN requests for confirmation.
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is scheduled to meet U.S. President Barack Obama at the White House on Tuesday.
Obama will try to "seize momentum" in the Middle East peace process at the meeting, White House officials said.
Turkey signaled Monday it will not relax pressure on Israel in its attempt to secure compensation for the nine victims.
The ministry spokesman said Turkey had not yet reached the point of cutting off relations with Israel but made it clear that even a full apology would not itself repair damaged relations.
The point of an apology would be to lead to compensation for those who died and to the lifting of the blockade of Gaza, government spokesman Burak Ozugergin told CNN.
The raid on the flotilla triggered a wave of international condemnation of Israel and its policies toward Gaza.
Turkey recalled its ambassador to Israel after the incident and denied Israeli military planes access to its airspace.
Israel imposed the blockade after Hamas took over Gaza three years ago.
Israeli authorities say the blockade is in place to stop weapons from reaching militants in Gaza who want to attack Israel.
Netanyahu recently announced an easing of the Gaza blockade. The changes include expanding operations at the existing land crossings, as well as streamlining the authorization process for international aid groups the Israeli government recognizes.
Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak met Palestinian Prime Minister Salam Fayyad on Monday to discuss implementing the changes to the blockade, Barak's office announced.
Israel's Foreign Ministry published the new rules Monday on what is allowed into Gaza.
The naval blockade remains in place.
Palestinian officials say the steps are an improvement but still insist that the blockade should be completely lifted.
CNN's Guy Azriel in Jerusalem and Andrew Finkel and Yesim Comert in Istanbul, Turkey, contributed to this report.
AH, IRONY. (http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/mpapps/pagetools/print/news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8563483.stm?ad=1) (But I'm not bitter.)
Personally I see Obama as a Obama-ist. He is a member of the new aristocracy. They are not socialist, communist or even capitalists. Power is gained via the political platform, not buy building or creating a industrial empire. Everything is a tool, that they will use to keep themselves in power/wealth. They are narcissist, the world centers on them.
In the recent bail out, if Obama was Lenin, he would have taken the money from the corporation leaders and distributed it to the people, Trotsky would have taken the corporate leaders and shoot them.
It was said only in America a person can rise from poverty to wealth through hard work and innovation in the market place. Through Politics, one can do even better. From welfare worker to CEO of the US.
I wonder if it would be safe to say, the reason for rapid inflation is too many politicians making big bucks without ever producing a market product.
Bushranger
07-06-2010, 06:04
Anyone want to speculate on how the problem will end? Palestinian birthrates are almost double what Jewish birthrates are. Out of a population of nearly seven million the majority are still Jews but in time the demographics will change. Walls, borders, and barriers can only contain so many people. The distant future doesn't look too good for the Israelis.
Same future awaits americans, russians, europeans... demographic is undisputable... you know what is most common name for a new born boy in London nowadays? Mohammed.